PDA

View Full Version : 3d printers and you



vonpietro
03-28-2016, 10:59 PM
I'm thinking of getting a 3d printer, but there are so many now.

Really i'd like one that has very high resolution for fine details on parts.
for around $500

anything i should know?


also i saw lithography $3200 with $150 for a liter of resin
this was interesting because there is no "scanlines" or print lines its smooth. And it seems you can get better details.
but how much do you get for your 1 liter of resin? $150 seems alot.
and its almost 7x more expensive than $500 printers.

Anyone having any successes building model kits with 3d printing. I want to 3d print the 2001 discovery. =)
and a nautilus from 20,000 leagues.

03-29-2016, 05:04 AM
A $500 printer would be an fdm printer; ya know, the ones with the filament (weed wacker line).
The resolution of printed objects of ABS can be smoothed with acetone to have the lines blend better or melted out. That is to say, their resolution can be made to appear better.
Details are better the bigger the object.
Other than that, for high resolution, an sla type of printer is the way to go. The newer ones with the 'dental light' in them are going to be cheaper and faster. However, their resins are still suspect for strength and durability.

I would look for a Prusa-type printer, which can be had for as little as $430 from Amazon. Get a build it yourself kit if cost is an issue. As well, if you are a DIY guy, this makes for a fun project to have around. This is my path and it has been/is a lot of fun to have a means to have your works in-hand.

With a well calibrated fdm printer, those objects could easily be printed in white for re-painting.

For that one liter, depends on the machine. For example, a form 1+ holds 200ml per bath. That's five 200ml objects you could make. Hmm, put into perspective, a name tag as seen on waiters and the like would run about 10-20ml. irc
Once you hold a piece from this kind of machine in hand... it is hard to appreciate fdm/abs printing.

Haha, until you drop it and it shatters! Abs looks real good after that. :) (There are better materials/resins than the one used in the aforementioned scenario.)

BigHache
03-29-2016, 10:23 PM
Pretty much what has been said. If you're looking for high-detail and small, say toy figurines, filament printers will leave you wanting.

spherical
03-30-2016, 12:01 AM
And if you are looking for build volume and pretty darn respectable detail, filament printers can't be beat. It is all in the nuances of knowing how to work the envelope and control the slicer to best advantage that your hardware can make the most of. Generalizations are just that, general.

jwiede
03-30-2016, 12:25 PM
And if you are looking for build volume and pretty darn respectable detail, filament printers can't be beat. It is all in the nuances of knowing how to work the envelope and control the slicer to best advantage that your hardware can make the most of. Generalizations are just that, general.

Exactly. A(nother) key distinction is the wide variety of different filament types available, allowing for all sorts of different surfaces/finishes and physical properties to prints (even dissolvable support structure material). While there are a few different types of resin typically available (hard plastic, soft plastic, etc) the filament deposition printers offer a _much_ wider variety of filament types/formulations.

While I have easy access to both printer types, most of the time I rely on FFD printers simply because the breadth of filament types (multiple usable concurrently in many printers) is such a useful attribute. I'd simply recommend that if you do select an FFD printer, make sure it offers a heated bed, sensor autocalibration of bed gap (or at least very easy manual calibration/adjustment), standard extruder mount, and potential for 2 or more simultaneous extruder/hotend assemblies. I'm a big fan of both Prusa-style and Printrbot designs, personally.

03-30-2016, 12:40 PM
I see my assumptions there...

Yes, dual head is a necessity. I rebuilt/replaced the hot ends and extruder on mine for much better performance and quality prints.

Jwiede, is the Printbot design where the bed rises and lowers? I want to make a big one like that.


Same here as to usage: the fdm machine was down for a bit and it was sorely missed.

Yes, a heat bed is a must.

Calibration... mine is manual. I plan to invest in an auto method. (Haha, 6 bucks. Big investment.)


E3D hotends are my update hotends: chimera and cyclops.

Fun stuff.

Greenlaw
03-30-2016, 03:58 PM
I have a Form 1+. When it came out, it was the first desktop 3D stereo lithographic printer. The resolution is super high for a desktop printer: 25 microns or about a 1/4 the thickness of hair or a sheet of paper, although I usually print at 50 or 100 microns. I got this printer during the FormLabs Kickstarter campaign for around $1300 but I think the price has doubled since then. Formlabs sells several different types of resin for it, including flexible and industrial strength 'Tough' resin. I like to switch between gray and clear resins. Gray is nice because it's opaque and the surface is easy to see when prepping it for painting. I like Clear because it looks cool when the laser is 'drawing' the part. :)

I have some pics of the Form 1 printing a toy in this article:

http://littlegreendog.com/2013/07/18/our-first-3d-print-sparklepus/

My 9 year old daughter gets in on the action too:

http://littlegreendog.com/2016/03/06/printing-siennas-toys-on-the-form-1/

The Form 1+ is a great printer but there are a few things you need to aware of:

- You want to make sure you have a fairly dust-free environment because dust on the mirrors inside will intefere with the laser. We unfortunately don't live in a dust proof house but I made a light-proof cover for the printer that so far seems to be keeping the dust out too.

- The chemicals are hazardous so you need to dispose of it properly.

- The resin can be expensive compared to, say, the PLA and ABS filament used in FDM printers. Even with the discount I get for being a KS supporter, the Clear and Gray resin costs me about $129 a bottle. One bottle actually goes a long way if you use it wisely but it also has a shelf life of about a year, so if you don't use it, you will lose it.

That said, I'm very impressed with this printer. It's quiet and relatively fast. I got the Form 1 mainly for toy prototyping and I've been getting excellent prints with it. The support staff has been wonderful too.

I'll post pics of more recent projects soon.

G.

jasonwestmas
03-30-2016, 04:27 PM
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1403065126/trinus-the-affordable-all-metal-3d-printer?ref=nav_search

Funny you should ask. Of course you'll have to wait till august to use it.

eagleeyed
03-30-2016, 07:18 PM
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1403065126/trinus-the-affordable-all-metal-3d-printer?ref=nav_search

Funny you should ask. Of course you'll have to wait till august to use it.

Thats really good value.
I want it for the laser cutting part.

To get fine detail with printers like the one above, slower print speed, a sturdy build, a very sturdy table for the printer to be on (this is often neglected) and the right materials are important.
Also the program you use to convert the model to gcode can play a big part in the finish. I spent the extra and got Simplify3D.
I personally love printing with wood filament.

(The line in the ear is when I dropped the poor thing, glued it back on).

133182

jasonwestmas
03-31-2016, 07:15 AM
Thats really good value.
I want it for the laser cutting part.

To get fine detail with printers like the one above, slower print speed, a sturdy build, a very sturdy table for the printer to be on (this is often neglected) and the right materials are important.
Also the program you use to convert the model to gcode can play a big part in the finish. I spent the extra and got Simplify3D.
I personally love printing with wood filament.

(The line in the ear is when I dropped the poor thing, glued it back on).

133182

Really nice owl print!

Yeah the Trinus is a 50 micron printer and I wouldn't have bought into it if it wasn't for that. I'm looking forward to the laser burner as well. Thanks for the heads up about simplify3D.

mummyman
03-31-2016, 08:15 AM
This Trinus looks very tempting. I only have some experience with Microbot from our town library, and it was pretty easy. But also jammed and was off balance a lot. Hmmm might have to consider this. Thanks for the link.

However, the print-bed on it seems pretty small. Not quite 5 inches

vonpietro
03-31-2016, 07:57 PM
thanks guys - greenlaw - i'm fascinated by lithiography.

the model i would like to print is the discovery from 2001. Its on thingiverse - i rendered out a pic of some of it -
i still have to put it together, its a rather detailed model.

133203

eagleeyed
03-31-2016, 09:22 PM
Really nice owl print!

Yeah the Trinus is a 50 micron printer and I wouldn't have bought into it if it wasn't for that. I'm looking forward to the laser burner as well. Thanks for the heads up about simplify3D.

Microns are not all it is cracked up to me.
Seen a few posts now comparing it to the megapixel war of cameras.

.1mm (100 micron) already takes long enough. My printer also supports 50 micron, however with the quality that 100 provides, I just cannot justify adding double the time.
I bought it for the same reason as you, 50 mircons, when I realised in person how long it took, I have never even attempted it, when .1mm and even .2mm for some uses (that owl for example is .2mm, min that wood can go) are brilliant.
THe thing to keep in mind, it details on the top and bottom are limited to the nozzle size.
Details on the sides of the prints can go down to 50 microns, however bottom and top surfaces and details are going to be limited to .4mm/400microns regardless.

That said, it does look like a very sturdy printer, and the changable print heads look great.
If you are looking at printing with ABS, ensure you do get the enclosure and heated bed, essential.
PLA is where the high detail is though. ABS for strength.

mummyman, It is a bit small, I agree.
My other worry is print surfaces that move on the x and/or y. Adds an extra swaying force to the model as it is setting.

Greenlaw
03-31-2016, 11:49 PM
Microns are not all it is cracked up to me.
Seen a few posts now comparing it to the megapixel war of cameras.
This is true. In the case of the Form 1+, the macro pics in the following link show a comparison between 100 micron prints of the same part created with SLA and FDM. Even though both used the same layer height, you can see that the SLA version is much cleaner and more accurate:

http://formlabs.com/support/software/layer-heights/


.1mm (100 micron) already takes long enough. My printer also supports 50 micron, however with the quality that 100 provides, I just cannot justify adding double the time.
I bought it for the same reason as you, 50 mircons, when I realised in person how long it took, I have never even attempted it, when .1mm and even .2mm for some uses (that owl for example is .2mm, min that wood can go) are brilliant.
Yes, this is why I usually go with 100 microns. The printer is capable of 25 microns but I just don't have the patience to wait for it and 100 microns is usually good enough--after prepping and painting our toys, you could never tell the difference. Recently, the developers added 'draft mode' for Clear which prints at 200 microns. That might be too rough even for my needs but it's supposed to be super fast (relatively speaking of course.) I haven't tried it yet but will the next time I order some more Clear resin. Will post comparison pics when I'm able to.

There are ways to chemically 'smooth' prints after printing. With the Form 1+, you can leave the acrylic part in an isopropyl alcohol tank for longer than the suggested 10 minutes. I understand with an FDM, you can soak PLA or ABS parts in acetone to smooth it. It's kinda like anti-aliasing your 3D print. :)

BTW, that owl looks amazing! I never heard of wood filament before. What is that exactly? A mixture of wood and plastic?

G.

spherical
03-31-2016, 11:57 PM
Acetone does not melt PLA, but tetrahydrofuran does to some degree; not as aggressive as acetone on ABS. Be aware that unless you tape the cap to the heck around the rim, that stuff WILL get out of the bottle all on its own and fly away like a spring butterfly.

eagleeyed
04-01-2016, 12:13 AM
This is true. In the case of the Form 1+, the macro pics in the following link show a comparison between 100 micron prints of the same part created with SLA and FDM. Even though both used the same layer height, you can see that the SLA version is much cleaner and more accurate:

http://formlabs.com/support/software/layer-heights/

G.

Very envious of the Form series of printers, incredible but way out of my price range.
I luckily have one of the most popular manufacturers of filament in Australia a few minutes from my house who makes really good filament (aurarum.com.au), lucky in that regard, no need to pay shipping.

Acetone does do a really good job with ABS, word of caution, take the flammable warnings seriously. Its not worth heating it up, and burning your house down.
I just tip it in a upside down coffee tin with paper lining (only enough for the paper to be wet), put the model in for 30 minutes, seal it, by that time it is only lightly smoothing the outside.
You do lose detail when doing it as-well, for the benefit of smoother surface.

PLA if its a pure filament (some manufacturers PLA is not 100%), Acetone should not affect it.
HIPS is a interesting one, you can use limonene which is made from oranges. So strong, is classified as a dangerous good, mainly used diluted for cleaning.

------

As for the wood filament, 40% wood, and the rest is a blend of PLA apparently. Depending on how fast and hot you print, you either get a light wood or dark wood colour as-well.

If you want to see something even cooler, check out bronze filament. When you polish it back, looks incredible! http://www.3dprintingpin.com/composite-3d-printing-filaments-open-door-new-opportunities/
I am not game to try it, cannot be stuffed dealing with the wear factor on the printer it brings.

-----

Also, be prepared for a fair bit of spoilage. :)
Its never fun when a print fails 40 hours into a 60 hour print. ABS likes to curl and shrink, can cause issues.

-----

Lastly, just started this print in 100 micron. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1385312
31 hours expected. Will take 40 knowing the printer.

133204

Greenlaw
04-01-2016, 12:22 AM
I was watching this video about the effect of acetone on PLA. I guess it makes it 'squishy'. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5hxMDr963M

04-01-2016, 05:24 AM
That's a brave print!
Show it when you are done.

Having played with both fdm and sla types of printers, I see that there is no point in assessing which is better: the form 1+ is superior to any fdm. (A stratysys system... I dunno.)
When laser-based 3d-printers hit below $500, take one hour to print something that takes 16 hours today, I can see myself having one. Heck, I'd go $1000 for 2 hours.
As it is, for this home hobbyist and the plethora of fdm filament types they are releasing as of late, an fdm printer makes a really nice substitute.

Being in the game, as it were, is still in the game.

I'd like to see the time quote for the print on that on a form 1+. I will when I go back to work.


Very envious of the Form series of printers, incredible but way out of my price range.
I luckily have one of the most popular manufacturers of filament in Australia a few minutes from my house who makes really good filament (aurarum.com.au), lucky in that regard, no need to pay shipping.

Acetone does do a really good job with ABS, word of caution, take the flammable warnings seriously. Its not worth heating it up, and burning your house down.
I just tip it in a upside down coffee tin with paper lining (only enough for the paper to be wet), put the model in for 30 minutes, seal it, by that time it is only lightly smoothing the outside.
You do lose detail when doing it as-well, for the benefit of smoother surface.

PLA if its a pure filament (some manufacturers PLA is not 100%), Acetone should not affect it.
HIPS is a interesting one, you can use limonene which is made from oranges. So strong, is classified as a dangerous good, mainly used diluted for cleaning.

------

As for the wood filament, 40% wood, and the rest is a blend of PLA apparently. Depending on how fast and hot you print, you either get a light wood or dark wood colour as-well.

If you want to see something even cooler, check out bronze filament. When you polish it back, looks incredible! http://www.3dprintingpin.com/composite-3d-printing-filaments-open-door-new-opportunities/
I am not game to try it, cannot be stuffed dealing with the wear factor on the printer it brings.

-----

Also, be prepared for a fair bit of spoilage. :)
Its never fun when a print fails 40 hours into a 60 hour print. ABS likes to curl and shrink, can cause issues.

-----

Lastly, just started this print in 100 micron. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1385312
31 hours expected. Will take 40 knowing the printer.

133204

jasonwestmas
04-01-2016, 07:17 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdiSDIwPuM8

mummyman
04-01-2016, 07:26 AM
Ha, jasonwestmas, just saw that yesterday too during my searches. Thanks!

vonpietro
04-01-2016, 10:43 AM
http://formlabs.com/store/us/form-2/buy-printer/

form 2 - second version out - do you know the difference?

Greenlaw
04-01-2016, 11:55 AM
It's more expensive? :)

Actually, FormLabs designed the Form 2 as a more 'professional' machine. It maintains a proper and constant temperature for the resin (critical for the 'tough' resin from what I understand), the resin comes in cartridges so there's less chance of spillage, and the display offers more feedback about status of the print. I think the internal parts and speed has been improved too. There's probably more but that's all I know off the top of my head.

The Form 1+ is already a huge improvement over the original Form 1 (better galvanometer and stronger laser for increased reliability, speed and accuracy; UV protected resin tray with sealing cover,) but the care, maintenance and general usage of the Form 1+ might be more involved than most businesses want to deal with. I think the Form 2 was designed to address these issues by making the system even more 'plug-and-play' friendly. I think both printers use the same PreForm software but there may be more features enabled for the Form 2.

I guess you can think of the differences in terms of 'pro-sumer' vs. 'business' models. Either can give you professional results but the Form 2 should be a more streamlined experience.

This is just my personal opinion of course since I haven't actually used a Form 2 printer.

G.

Edit: I think the Form 2 has a bigger build platform too. Need to check on that.

eagleeyed
04-04-2016, 07:59 PM
That's a brave print!
Show it when you are done.

Having played with both fdm and sla types of printers, I see that there is no point in assessing which is better: the form 1+ is superior to any fdm. (A stratysys system... I dunno.)
When laser-based 3d-printers hit below $500, take one hour to print something that takes 16 hours today, I can see myself having one. Heck, I'd go $1000 for 2 hours.
As it is, for this home hobbyist and the plethora of fdm filament types they are releasing as of late, an fdm printer makes a really nice substitute.

Being in the game, as it were, is still in the game.

I'd like to see the time quote for the print on that on a form 1+. I will when I go back to work.

Definately agree.
Will keep my eye on the SLA printers, like FDM they will keep coming down in price.
Glad to have a 3D printer at all though.

As requested:

In progress pics:

133273 133274

Completed:

133275133276133277

Here are the finished pics, just need to wait for the right sized ball bearings to arrive from eBay now.
This is with no cleanup or supports at all.

Link for anyone else who wants to give it a shot: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1385312

UnCommonGrafx
04-05-2016, 05:01 AM
Very nice. How big is it?
A little acetone vapor bath and that would be quite lovely.

Nice print. Very nice.
What's the printer and hotends, if you know the latter?
Robert

eagleeyed
04-05-2016, 09:37 PM
Very nice. How big is it?
A little acetone vapor bath and that would be quite lovely.

Nice print. Very nice.
What's the printer and hotends, if you know the latter?
Robert

Tried, unfortunately print is too big for the containers I use.
Next time I head to the shops will try and fine one where it will fit.

This is for the track model:
X 140mm
Y 140mm
Z 120mm

As for the printer, Flashforge Dreamer, as far as I am aware the hotends are specific to this model.
http://www.flashforge-usa.com/dreamer-3d-printer/

A firmware update now allows it to print to .05mm / 50 micron, never tried it though.

Greenlaw
04-06-2016, 02:58 PM
That's pretty cool!

I'll have to give it a shot on our printer.