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View Full Version : Grrrrrr. Why, Cone Tool, WHY?



jeric_synergy
03-27-2016, 11:11 PM
If you make a 'flat Cone', it doesn't show you any of the SEGMENTS. The SEGMENTS are useful when they are flat, and in fact most of the time I use Cone I have to flatten the darn thing out.

WHY would a programmer put in the extra code to hide the SEGMENTS when the cone is flat???

Ztreem
03-28-2016, 02:37 AM
Do you want a cone or just a disc with segments to the center? I'm not sure I understand what you're after... ?

cagey5
03-28-2016, 06:54 AM
Have you tried using 'Spikey' on a flat disc instead

prometheus
03-28-2016, 07:05 AM
yeah..that may be a little awkward, but is it that much of a trouble using it anyway, simply make it as flat as possible but with 1mm in the top value numeric tab, then just hit v for value and flatten it on whatever axis you have created it in?

spikey works too, but it wonīt show unless activate it in the numeric tab.

jeric_synergy
03-28-2016, 08:06 AM
You keep saying things like "might be a little awkward" or "might take some work"-- I know. -- the point of these comments is to point out the excess work and the awkwardness so they can be eliminated.

And as to "how much of a trouble?" : it's MORE THAN I WANT.

erikals
03-28-2016, 08:58 AM
yeah, a small 'bug' there   http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

i use "align to last point's Y"

two taps on the keyboard


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqYbh1q1O2w

JoePoe
03-28-2016, 09:21 AM
A) seems to work okay on my end. 133146

B) Keep in mind that if you make a flat cone (in the tool, or squashing after the tool) you will have the big bottom Ngon squashed together with all the other polys. Maybe that's what's interfering with seeing segments? 133147

prometheus
03-28-2016, 10:06 AM
You keep saying things like "might be a little awkward" or "might take some work"-- I know. -- the point of these comments is to point out the excess work and the awkwardness so they can be eliminated.

And as to "how much of a trouble?" : it's MORE THAN I WANT.

I understand you..itīs your perspective..from my perspective..it is more of wrestling trouble not adapting to some situations like this and overcome it....you will have a lot to go Grr if you donīt.
But again..you are right, my perspective doesnīt help the road to perfecting a tool, it only helps me adapt.

Greenlaw
03-28-2016, 10:19 AM
A) seems to work okay on my end.
Same here, it's always worked for me.

I usually don't flatten the cone while I'm using the tool because it's easier to select and delete the ngon before flattening it.

JoePoe
03-28-2016, 10:38 AM
Same here, it's always worked for me.

I usually don't flatten the cone while I'm using the tool because it's easier to select and delete the ngon before flattening it.

Whoops, I have to recant! I had a small Y radius. I get same as Jeric. In fact no segments or sides (except for "disc" sides that is)... In tool result.

Greenlaw
03-28-2016, 10:41 AM
Maybe I'm not not understanding what's being discussed. Let me check here.

Greenlaw
03-28-2016, 10:44 AM
Oh, okay, I see what you mean. I guess I never noticed because, as mentioned above, I don't flatten the cone to a disc until after I delete the ngon. Otherwise, I'm just making more work for myself.

Besides, when you flatten the cone in the cone tool, you're not making a cone, you're making a disc. I think what's really needed are concentric segment options for the Disc tool. :p

BeeVee
03-28-2016, 11:23 AM
Or just make a disc, then use Make Pole...

B

JoePoe
03-28-2016, 11:27 AM
Or just make a disc, then use Make Pole...

B

+1 ...and then immediately switch to polys and hit L a couple of times :).

erikals
03-28-2016, 11:35 AM
Make Pole...
yep, always what i do, and of course i have a Make Pole shortcut

jeric_synergy
03-28-2016, 12:30 PM
I find making "bullseye" objects useful for a number of things, which is why I'm grumbling/whining/beotching about this here. But it's never made sense to me that a programmer would go OUT OF THEIR WAY to make Cone work the way it does, or, if s/he were going to do something "special", why not get rid of the n-gon instead of everything else when H=0??

There's also the situation where, IIRC, Cones always point along the positive axis, but that's a whine for another post. :devil:

+ Perhaps this is a good time to add a hotkey for "Flatten".

Greenlaw
03-28-2016, 12:53 PM
+1 ...and then immediately switch to polys and hit L a couple of times :).

That's pretty cool--I never knew about L. But what's it actually doing? I see that the hotkey is assigned to Connect but I'm not sure what that means.


There's also the situation where, IIRC, Cones always point along the positive axis, but that's a whine for another post. :devil:

Now that's one of MY longstanding peeves about the tool. :)

jeric_synergy
03-28-2016, 12:55 PM
Seriously, those tools date from, hell, VIDEOSCAPE probably. Overdue for modernization & consolidation.

probiner
03-28-2016, 01:27 PM
Or just make a disc, then use Make Pole...

B

/Thread

BeeVee
03-28-2016, 01:49 PM
It can even be Make Ball, but only draw it in one viewport. That's better since you can use the keyboard shortcut.

B

BeeVee
03-28-2016, 01:52 PM
That's pretty cool--I never knew about L. But what's it actually doing? I see that the hotkey is assigned to Connect but I'm not sure what that means.


It connects edges. Make a quad, select the edges on either side, hit l. Described p1474 of the 2015.3 manual ;)

B

bazsa73
03-28-2016, 03:35 PM
The direction issue makes me cringe too.

JoePoe
03-28-2016, 04:03 PM
RE: L.... yeah, "connects" edges. BUT, it works on poly selection too. Like a super fast single 50% divide band saw or quick cut.
Been my go to since before edit edges showed up. Even now, though, it's still the fastest (maybe because it's so ingrained...). Especially since you can just keep hitting it for more divides.

Greenlaw
03-30-2016, 05:18 PM
It connects edges. Make a quad, select the edges on either side, hit l. Described p1474 of the 2015.3 manual ;)
Thank for the explanation BeeVee. Will look it up tonight--maybe I'll find other useful tidbits I never knew about. :)

G.

jeric_synergy
03-31-2016, 12:43 AM
Thank for the explanation BeeVee. Will look it up tonight--maybe I'll find other useful tidbits I never knew about. :)
G.
Yeah, IIRC, it does something else that's not quite intuitive..... actually, it's totally intuitive:



In Edge mode, it connects the mid points of selected edges.

In Point mode, it connects selected points of the same poly, essentially Splitting the poly. Works with multiple polys.

ONLY 2 points can be selected per poly: if >2 points/poly are selected, nothing happens to that poly.

EDIT: I notice JoePoe has said CONNECT does something in poly mode, but that escaped me: what does it do??--MORE: Oh, hmmm.... CONNECT will split polys if they are selected in a rather linear fashion, that is, no "turning corners". I think most people would want to use it in Edge mode, where it does pretty much the same thing but is more flexible.

Snosrap
04-01-2016, 08:49 PM
If you make a 'flat Cone', it doesn't show you any of the SEGMENTS. The SEGMENTS are useful when they are flat, and in fact most of the time I use Cone I have to flatten the darn thing out.

WHY would a programmer put in the extra code to hide the SEGMENTS when the cone is flat??? Actually in this case the programming is smart. The user - ;D Just kidding jeric. :D

jeric_synergy
04-02-2016, 12:07 AM
Actually in this case the programming is smart. The user - ;D Just kidding jeric. :D
I'm not offended, but I disagree strongly. :beerchug:

Beating a dead horse, perhaps (!!), but here's the deal: if you wanted just a oval, you'd use the DISK tool. But if you want a "bullseye", you've almost got it with the Cone tool, except the programmer bones you with extra checking code to no benefit to anyone. --Thaaaaaaaaanks, man. Hell, it's so old it was probably Stuart.

erikals
04-02-2016, 01:38 AM
language!

"b**** you" is hardly appropriate

jeric_synergy
04-02-2016, 09:04 AM
???

Snosrap
04-02-2016, 09:26 AM
I'm not offended, but I disagree strongly. :beerchug:

Beating a dead horse, perhaps (!!), but here's the deal: if you wanted just a oval, you'd use the DISK tool. But if you want a "bullseye", you've almost got it with the Cone tool, except the programmer bones you with extra checking code to no benefit to anyone. --Thaaaaaaaaanks, man. Hell, it's so old it was probably Stuart.

We will have to agree to disagree jeric. Let's consider the bevel tool - wouldn't we agree that extra checking code would be great so that we wouldn't get those crazy overlapping corners when we do a bevel?

jeric_synergy
04-02-2016, 09:30 AM
That's changing the subject. So, what's the case for using the CONE tool when you want a disk?

JoePoe
04-02-2016, 12:38 PM
Same action in the Ball tool. Zero radius on any axis defaults to an Ngon.
This is in contrast to the Box tool which, obviously, keeps it's divisions when flat. So I get what Jeric is saying.

Maybe it's not a huge task for Ken to make an "Open Ended" button in Dome Maker (https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/dome-maker/).

jeric_synergy
04-02-2016, 12:46 PM
If Ball generated 1 side when an axis were=zero, it'd make a neat patch tool, no???

JoePoe
04-02-2016, 12:56 PM
If Ball generated 1 side when an axis were=zero, it'd make a neat patch tool, no???

It does.
But I'm not sure what you mean.

BTW Dome Maker is a pretty cool little tool. Easy to make your flat bullseyes (with lots of spacing options). You just need to delete the big tris after.

Snosrap
04-02-2016, 01:02 PM
That's changing the subject. So, what's the case for using the CONE tool when you want a disk?

Kinda - but not really. Tools that do stupid stuff and in this case it's actually smart - something I thought most of LW's tools weren't. :)

jeric_synergy
04-02-2016, 05:18 PM
I'm still not seeing what's so smart about it. Doing the OPPOSITE would be smart, not what it does.

And the direction thing is just a huge fail. Dumb!

++++++++
JoePoe, I'll have to check that out.

jwiede
04-02-2016, 09:19 PM
Kinda - but not really. Tools that do stupid stuff and in this case it's actually smart - something I thought most of LW's tools weren't. :)

Why do you consider what the cone tool is doing "smart"? What use case benefits from the current behavior (and how)?

jwiede
04-02-2016, 09:26 PM
And the direction thing is just a huge fail. Dumb!

By negating the Y "radius" value, you can make the tool flip the cone's direction, but then you'll also need to flip the generated polys afterwards (at least on Mac). Not clear whether flipping result polys or rotating result cone is faster. Agreed in general, users having to resort to either is stupid.

Snosrap
04-02-2016, 09:36 PM
Why do you consider what the cone tool is doing "smart"? What use case benefits from the current behavior (and how)?

Because it keeps the user from having a bunch of tris stuck on top of a big n-gon.

jeric_synergy
04-02-2016, 09:41 PM
Because it keeps the user from having a bunch of tris stuck on top of a big n-gon.
EYEROLL EXTREME! --OR, it could suppress the n-gon. The coder chose the wrong option to attend to.

Having another "oval generator" add zero functionality to LWM. Having a bullseye generator adds functionality.

By negating the Y "radius" value, you can make the tool flip the cone's direction, but then you'll also need to flip the generated polys afterwards (at least on Mac). Not clear whether flipping result polys or rotating result cone is faster. Agreed in general, users having to resort to either is stupid.
I wasn't able to do this with the RADIUS parameter, but was with the TOP parameter: having a negative TOP reversed the direction of the Cone.

HOWEVER, if you attempt to fine tune it in the UI via mouse, it immediately reverts to +axis orientation. Really, what a piece of misbegotten rubbish.

Snosrap
04-02-2016, 09:58 PM
EYEROLL EXTREME! --OR, it could suppress the n-gon. True that. At least something got suppressed, something that is sorely missing in a lot of other modeling tools within LW. Clears throat - bevel. :)

jeric_synergy
04-03-2016, 01:31 AM
One's a complex algorithmic problem.

The other is just common sense.

djwaterman
04-03-2016, 07:39 AM
Interesting thread, I've learn't some things I never used, like the L button for creating edge loops, the make spiky tool and so on. I think the logic underpinning the cone tool is it makes a simple cone, the moment you zero out the cone distance it decides you are no longer making a cone and just gives you the base to avoid giving you an awkward shared polygon object. Now to look into dome maker.

jeric_synergy
04-03-2016, 09:14 AM
I think the logic underpinning the cone tool is......
"....nonsensical and pointless." --Fixed it for you. :D

MonroePoteet
04-03-2016, 03:10 PM
I think without the "undesired" special case code, the Cone tool would produce *both* the triangles with common points and the base N-gon. So, to get what you appear to want, you'd have to delete the N-gon anyway. Or, there would have to be special case code to NOT produce the base N-gon if the height is zero, create it once the height is non-zero (locating the appropriate edge points on the triangles to form the N-gon), and then delete it if the height became zero again.

Gotta wonder how many times you could invoke Make Pole for the time spent on this thread! :)

mTp

jeric_synergy
04-03-2016, 04:18 PM
That makes no sense: you can do it either way. In this case, the coder opted for the stupid way.