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Matt
03-06-2003, 07:51 PM
LightWave VX - Scene Manager

Not in any way finished, but I thought I'd put this up for feedback on features to include.

When completed this will be the 'Scene Manager'.

I imagine this to combine all the best bits from the Scene Editor (overall keyframe control; moving, selecting, deleting)
Spreadsheet (en-masse property editing) Motion Mixer (non-linear editing) and the
Graph Editor (curve control and tweaking) plus a whole load of nice features to make editing every aspect
of your scenes keyframes a piece of cake!

You will be able to click on any of the key frames and modify the data right in this window.

A 'mini-graph' editor will also be implemented, so you don't need to keep switching between the two.
I think I have a nice way of doing this too!

Most of the features I have in mind are not shown (yet) but this is what I was thinking for the interface.

Note the dark interface (some people thought the light grey interface was too light)

http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/gfx/scene_manager_thumb.jpg (http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/gfx/scene_manager.jpg)
(Click for large version)

Edit List

ANYTHING that uses keyframes in LightWave will appear in the list.
This means ANY plugins too, which will also mean when you scale / shrink the whole scene, all plugins using
keyframes will be affected too (unless you tell it not to)

http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/gfx/list.jpg

Note you can also have multiple instances of anything too, like 'Actors' in Motion Mixer.

http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/gfx/multiple_instances.jpg

Keyframes Colour Coded

Keyframes are colour coded to help indentify start / end and keyframe changes.

http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/gfx/start_end_keyframes.jpg

Small Interface Tweaks

Just an example of how to pack a lot of features into a small amount of space.
Instead of big number entry gadgets a small visual way of editing where the render should start and finish is shown.

http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/gfx/start_end_render.jpg

I will post more when it's finished.

Cheers
Matt

lord
03-06-2003, 11:16 PM
I like it, Great idea. I can see big advantages in improved workflow,

looks tidy as well.

:cool:

eXt3Nce
03-07-2003, 03:12 AM
In one word GREAT!

DigiLusionist
03-07-2003, 11:26 AM
Looking forward to seeing the next version, Matt.

skarab
03-08-2003, 04:07 AM
here's hoping that newtek hire you to design the v.8 interface. Nice work!!

ModelMonkey
03-11-2003, 12:14 PM
Your interface looks really neat, but notice that the menus are "eating" the workspace, i hope you can reduce them, i would hate to work in a gameboy size window, just to have your pretty interface.

ModelMonkey
03-11-2003, 12:36 PM
Compare...

Matt
03-11-2003, 08:14 PM
couple of things . . .

I was aware of this when I did it, the interface IS larger and will take up some screen space than the current LW interface, however . . .

Show that screen with the property manager open please and see
how much space you have left. That nice open space you have there won't
be so open (unless you have multiple monitors).

If you do have multiple monitors the tabs can be 'pulled off' to be placed on
another screen thus freeing screen space on the main work screen.

The whole 'tabbed' area would collapse / expand by double-clicking on a tab
or by a keyboard command thus revealing more space.

The screen shot you've chosen to montage wasn't the largest size monitor
resolution I could have used so the viewport area looks smaller than it would be.

There's a little more to it than just making a 'pretty' version of LW, usability
is one area that was thought of which I believe would justify losing some screen space, but that's just my opinion.

Matt

DigiLusionist
03-11-2003, 10:14 PM
Still loking forward to the next version of the Scene Editor, Matt. You're doing a great job.

PHilly[Dee]
03-11-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Matt
....There's a little more to it than just making a 'pretty' version of LW, usability
is one area that was thought of which I believe would justify losing some screen space, but that's just my opinion.

Matt

I have to agree with you, Matt. I personally don't use a maximized window of the Layout area. I keep it big enough so I can open the GraphEd on the bottom of the timeline and still fit everything in a 1280x1024 desktop enviorment. I think intergrating the menus like you've done above can really improve workflow.

Again, just my $.02:D

lord
03-12-2003, 01:55 AM
add an extra monitor (which I can't live without now) to the mix and the ability to place the tabs on that second monitor, would be wonderful to use.

Could the menubar down the side be narrower?

As I understand it, is the idea to have each tab being able to be seperate, so you could arrange them as you please?

Matt
03-12-2003, 08:37 AM
aaah, my efforts aren't in vain then! :)

thanks Philly, same here, I don't max out my viewport, but I
understand some people would need to.

lord, yes the idea would be that the bank at the bottom could be there as shown
or totally removed (including the timeline and selection bar)
or be customised to your own tabs.

some serious interface coding for NT though!!!!

ModelMonkey
03-12-2003, 09:37 AM
1- Taking workspace size is not a good idea.

2- Your menu layout isnīt better than the actual one, is just like a winamp skin but eating more workspace, i hope that newtek donīt buy it, you are killing lightwave interface, who do you think you are?

3- Let the professionals do menu interfaces.

4- Do you think people are fool? i made the "montage" with the "this is the old lightwave, this is the new one" pictures that you posted, what do you want? You made the comparison with your pictures.

5- Usability is one area that was thought of which I believe would justify losing some screen space, but that's just my opinion - You bet that is just your opinion.

6- You really want people to work in a gameboy window!

7- Why do you think, maya, 3ds, xsi, use side menus, 3ds use vertical sliding ones? is it ringing any bells? Because people enjoy working in big workspaces.


I think lightwave needs a better interface, but this is not the best aproach.

DigiLusionist
03-12-2003, 02:14 PM
Matt is a professional designer, monkey.

JohnL
03-12-2003, 03:54 PM
Matt,
Keep up the good work. I really enjoy your input.

While I don't agree with every detail, the overall idea is sound. This will especially be a great improvement for users with dual monitors. Which BTW, I think is a very important consideration.

ModelMonkey
03-12-2003, 04:24 PM
First, you donīt know if iīm a professional or not, you canīt judge people by their nicknames. I use lightwave since version 3 from the amiga times, most of my work is done for tv in my country. The mister professional "designer", made a major mistake by cropping the workspace limiting the perfomance of the users. So do me a favour ilusionist letīs threat people by what they do right or wrong, and not by their titles, ok?

We are judging his interface that he presented to us, not his past work future work etc. His goal is to get feedback from users, and iīm glad that iīm the only person here with eyes and courage to point a feature that is not good for lightwave users. Is so easy to say: Nice design, so cute!

Notice that we are looking at a single view, lightwave supports more views configuration, like 4, imagine dividing the workspace that he created in 4...

Second, buy a second monitor is not an answer, i have a very nice monitor and iīm not buying a new one just because a so called professional designer decided that we need to work with 2 monitors, because of is lame interface design.

This is a discussion forum, and USERīS more that the so called professionals have the right to discuss what is better or not for their work, so everybody have a chance to say what is in their minds.

JohnL
03-12-2003, 04:37 PM
Considering the fact that almost every video card manufactured today have outputs for two monitors and that a 17" CRT costs about as much as a trip to the movies, I don't think that we should necessarily cripple the potential of LW because you "have a very nice monitor".

PHilly[Dee]
03-12-2003, 04:44 PM
Actually, I can work faster in a single cropped OpenGL window than say a maximized 4 window enviorment. This is simply because I don't want to wait till all 4 windows refreshed in openGL--I just don't like sitting around. I know I can work in more than 1 viewport but I don't like to. I've benchmarked performance with the FPS counter, and I've found that having a smaller openGL window will up my playback FPS(at least with my humble GF3 card) Personally I think Matt's done a favor for NewTek in coming up with good ideas for Layout, and putting both work and rep on the line to have everyone view and comment on his work. Matt has also said that you can maximize the layout window and hide the menus. He's still leaving in the user configurability and vast options for those of us who still want a huge layout window;)

anim8torguy
03-12-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by ModelMonkey
First, you donīt know if iīm a professional or not, you canīt judge people by nicknames.

No, but we CAN judge you by your unprofessionalism !!!

(And we have). Now go play with your "nice" monitor.

ModelMonkey
03-12-2003, 05:02 PM
PHilly[Dee] - See the result, a bad modelled ear as an avatar.

ModelMonkey
03-12-2003, 05:17 PM
Iīm not going to discuss more here that chance: "lightwave 8.0 is out, oh by the way we bought an interface from a very good designer, so be sure to get two monitors and proper gfx card".

Now enough babysitting, open your minds.

PHilly[Dee]
03-12-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by ModelMonkey
PHilly[Dee] - See the result, a bad modelled ear as an avatar.

yeah, it's pretty ugly, I know... :) it's supposed to be my ear(modeled in LW4)--I've got ugly ears:p

DigiLusionist
03-12-2003, 05:50 PM
ModelMonkey, your posts on this thread and on others in this forum indicate a lack of professionalism. I wasn't going by titles, and there is no indication of my doing so.

One need only read your posts to come to the conclusion that you do not know how to critique the interface. Are you a professional graphic designer? And also, are you a good graphic designer?If so, you'd appreciate how much time and thought went into Matt's presentations.

Comments like
"Do you think people are fool?"
or "Why do you think, maya, 3ds, xsi, use side menus, 3ds use vertical sliding ones? is it ringing any bells? Because people enjoy working in big workspaces. I think lightwave needs a better interface, but this is not the best aproach." only reinforce my observations.

DigiLusionist
03-12-2003, 06:02 PM
quote by ModelMonkey: "and iīm glad that iīm the only person here with eyes and courage to point a feature that is not good for lightwave users. Is so easy to say: Nice design, so cute!"

And while you're busy congratulating yourself for being courageous, try not to fall off that pedastal. Matt's presentations were clearly labeled works-in-progress, so there is no need to trash them. Especially, when you offer no better alternatives.

lord
03-12-2003, 06:35 PM
So where exactly do you have your graph editor, scene editor, material editor when there open Modelmonkey?

Matt has explained that the tabs situated at the bottom in his example of a possible Layout interface design, can be hidden or exposed as needed.

What Matt is suggesting with his interface concept design is a tidy well thought out alternative to Lightwaves existing interface.
In my opinion his design in fact has the potential to optimise screen realestate, and potentially improve workflow.

There are most likely improvements that matt can make to his design

Modelmonkey you refered to yourself as being a Lightwave user since the Amiga days, perhaps you are suffering from kneejerk sentimentality rather than providing serious objective constructive critisism.

Hope you don't mind me using your image here Matt.

ModelMonkey
03-12-2003, 07:24 PM
DigiLusionist, is not up to you to determine my level of professionalism, itīs all about personalities. Some people accept everything like a group of sheeps. Most users spent hundreds of dollars in top computers and some months after they bought they donīt get mad for having a piece of junk. This could be called the era of buy and accept, even if it sux. So i donīt accept things easy, ok?

When you are making a product and itīs a work in progress, you donīt say this is the old interface this is the new one like he did. Like the old one is useless. Itīs ugly, maybe, but is working.

My comment here was, that he gave more value to his interface, and without caring about the size of the workspace, that place where you build your scene...

Matt quote: I was aware of this when I did it, the interface IS larger and will take up some screen space than the current LW interface.

Is true, he admits that he cropped the working area, so is not a work in progress he really wants it that way! - So me has a lightwave user, do i have to accept this decision? No, i donīt.

Another Matt quote: usability is one area that was thought of which I believe would justify losing some screen space, but that's just my opinion.

Matt sugestion and some users in this forum: If you do have multiple monitors the tabs can be 'pulled off' to be placed on another screen thus freeing screen space on the main work screen - Even if i bought a new monitor it was to place Modeler not to fill it with buttons.

At this moment, i can have the option of not using the graph editor or other editor, placing the objects in the scene for example, i donīt need it in that case, So it can be hidden, it doesnīt have to be always present as shown in Matt preview, ok? And itīs not only about the editors, where is the move tool, the rotate, etc, guess what... in the big toolbar that he made... And those can be found right now in the sidebar without calling a big bar.

The composition that you showed us lord is an image that is not in Matt site, so, i canīt talk about that. I like it much more, no doubth, but iīm not in Matt head and you arenīt also.

Iīm not suffering from kneejerking sentimentalism, i hate that, and i made an objective critic. i canīt help people for posting parallel posts most of them really lame, like buy a new monitor etc, i only talked about objective things posted by Matt, and make me really mad, how can come some guy come and sugest, now your going to work in a reduced workspace, if you donīt like, you can always buy a new monitor, to put my interface.

DigiLusionist
03-12-2003, 08:17 PM
Monkey, I hear what you're saying. Other people are unprofessional and lame and you're not. I hear ya.

Matt
03-12-2003, 08:19 PM
modelmonkey you are quite entitled to your opinions as am I,
I am at a loss as to why you seem so angry on all your posts (not just this topic either)

but to answer your comments:

1- Taking workspace size is not a good idea.

I agree in theory, but it depends what you replace it with, the size
of the buttons, space around the buttons on the 'vX' interface could
be reduced quite a lot, but it would be cramped and difficult to work in.

2- Your menu layout isnīt better than the actual one, . . .you
are killing lightwave interface, who do you think you are?

Don't quite know where to begin here! Well, I'm not doing this to
make Netwek do ANYTHING, who do I think I am? I'm a LightWave
user and have been for over 4 years I'm not trying to kill anything!

The only thing damaging here is your un-necessary negative attitude.

3- Let the professionals do menu interfaces.

I shouldn't rise to this but . . .

Diploma in 3D design, BA (Hons) Industrial Design
6 years working as a professional industrial designer,
I think that counts!

(BTW: Careers in interface design recognise Industrial Design
as a relevant area of expertise)

4- Do you think people are fool? i made the "montage"

Errrm, yes and I stand by what I said, the screen shot I posted
isn't shown at the full resolution of most monitors because it was
easier to work on in Photoshop at a smaller size, so in short, the
viewport COULD be bigger.

5- . . . You bet that is just your opinion.

Exactly, so why is it bothering you so much, or are you just trying
to get a rise out of people to make your life seem more interesting? :)

6- You really want people to work in a gameboy window!

Read the original post on the old forum it will explain that people
can configure the interface to whatever they want, even make it
like the original lightwave layout.

7- Why do you think, maya, 3ds, xsi, use side menus, 3ds use vertical sliding ones?

The one I'm proposing does have a side menu (the tool bar, just
like LW has now) I didn't introduce a menu like Max because I wanted to
keep some of the elements of LW as it stands, LW at the moment
doesn't have drop down menus either. Adding drop-down menus
doesn't solve everything, they are 'one-time' access GUI elements
you still need UI real estate for things like things like buttons, scrolling lists etc.

You can do this with a minimal interface and floating palettes (like
LW at the moment) or by panels (with sub-tabs) that REPLACE any
floating windows (like Macromedia products do) which keep
the main work area clear, THAT'S the idea, and that's why I,
in my opinion think losing some space isn't all bad.

I think lightwave needs a better interface, but this is not the best aproach.

Please don't let me stop you from doing something better, I'd happily
use it if it was better than what we have now.

- - - -

You seem to think that I'm saying people should run this interface
with two monitors, I've never suggested that, I only have one monitor
Tabs were INVENTED as a way to have more controls in the same space
thus NOT needing extra monitors, so I'm afraid your argument is flawed.

- - -

You say people should open their minds, slagging people off in every
post you do isn't very open minded is it?

- - -

Regarding PhillyDees avatar, ears are quite complicated to model actually,
where's your avatar?

I wasn't going to write such a long reply to your imaturity but I think
you need it!

;)

PHilly[Dee]
03-12-2003, 10:10 PM
I'll be happy to change my avatar, if it offends some of our members on this board.... :D

ModelMonkey
03-12-2003, 11:12 PM
modelmonkey you are quite entitled to your opinions as am I,
I am at a loss as to why you seem so angry on all your posts (not just this topic either)

- Iīm not angry you didnīt see my face here, you are dreaming things.

but to answer your comments:

1- Taking workspace size is not a good idea.

I agree in theory, but it depends what you replace it with, the size
of the buttons, space around the buttons on the 'vX' interface could
be reduced quite a lot, but it would be cramped and difficult to work in.

-What is agree in theory? Sorry i canīt understand. Is just one more thing that you invented for fooling us?
Yes, you think you are working for blind people, why donīt you put it more bigger then we donīt miss the buttons...

2- Your menu layout isnīt better than the actual one, . . .you
are killing lightwave interface, who do you think you are?

Don't quite know where to begin here! Well, I'm not doing this to
make Netwek do ANYTHING, who do I think I am? I'm a LightWave
user and have been for over 4 years I'm not trying to kill anything!

- What you are doing it for filling your pockets with our money, or are you doing it for free? donīt try to be naive, we all know what you are after. You use lightwave for 4 years, i use it since it came to the amiga.
You are trying to kill lightwave interface, i hope you donīt succed with it, if you want a job doing menus go to a restaurant, there you can make big menus.

The only thing damaging here is your un-necessary negative attitude.

- Every one have the right to express the way they want, itīs up to you if you want to listen or not.

3- Let the professionals do menu interfaces.

I shouldn't rise to this but . . .

Diploma in 3D design, BA (Hons) Industrial Design
6 years working as a professional industrial designer,
I think that counts!

(BTW: Careers in interface design recognise Industrial Design
as a relevant area of expertise)

- A diploma in 3d design doesnīt makes you an artist. If it maked you didnīt asked this at a recent post - I don't want to ask you to give away all your secrets, but what processes / tools do you use in modeler when taking on a car like that?

- 6 years working as professional industrial designer doesnīt make you an expert in lightwave funcionality, and doesnīt give you the right to decide how people should work with lightwave in the future.

4- Do you think people are fool? i made the "montage"

Errrm, yes and I stand by what I said, the screen shot I posted
isn't shown at the full resolution of most monitors because it was
easier to work on in Photoshop at a smaller size, so in short, the
viewport COULD be bigger.

- Could be bigger now thatīs the most right thing you said, but it isnīt.


5- . . . You bet that is just your opinion.

Exactly, so why is it bothering you so much, or are you just trying
to get a rise out of people to make your life seem more interesting?

- My life is interesting enough, thank you, it wouldnīt if you make me and others use lightwave by your method.

6- You really want people to work in a gameboy window!

Read the original post on the old forum it will explain that people
can configure the interface to whatever they want, even make it
like the original lightwave layout.

- If i can configure it to the original lw menu, then is just a pretty skin, no thanks.
A menu that can be configured at will, make people life harder, for example when you want to make tutorials, explain things, and exchange knowledge.



7- Why do you think, maya, 3ds, xsi, use side menus, 3ds use vertical sliding ones?

The one I'm proposing does have a side menu (the tool bar, just
like LW has now) I didn't introduce a menu like Max because I wanted to keep some of the elements of LW as it stands, LW at the moment doesn't have drop down menus either. Adding drop-down menus
doesn't solve everything, they are 'one-time' access GUI elements
you still need UI real estate for things like things like buttons, scrolling lists etc.

- The side menu that you introduced is bar that have a file requester on the top, you still want to make people fool?

You can do this with a minimal interface and floating palettes (like
LW at the moment) or by panels (with sub-tabs) that REPLACE any
floating windows (like Macromedia products do) which keep
the main work area clear, THAT'S the idea, and that's why I,
in my opinion think losing some space isn't all bad.

- So you admit or do not admit that you are taking space? Or still fooling people?
At the moment i only request those menus if i need them, and donīt need to have them always present eating my workspace.


I think lightwave needs a better interface, but this is not the best aproach.

Please don't let me stop you from doing something better, I'd happily
use it if it was better than what we have now.

- Donīt stop, just learn to accept diferent opinions, and not to be so proud of a thing that isnīt finished, itīs better listening the critics from users than from bosses, here you donīt leave with empty pockets.
No, accept my opinion, the interface that you designed is eating the workspace, period.
- - - -

You seem to think that I'm saying people should run this interface
with two monitors, I've never suggested that, I only have one monitor
Tabs were INVENTED as a way to have more controls in the same space
thus NOT needing extra monitors, so I'm afraid your argument is flawed.

- Never? - If you do have multiple monitors the tabs can be 'pulled off' to be placed on another screen thus freeing screen space on the main work screen.

Now you are a liar.


- - -

You say people should open their minds, slagging people off in every
post you do isn't very open minded is it?

- I donīt slag people. Unfortunately most people suffer from the "sheep sindrome" iīm glad that iīm diferent from the rest, and i post diferent opinions. What would be the world if we all wear blue?
- - -

Regarding PhillyDees avatar, ears are quite complicated to model actually,
where's your avatar?

- I donīt use avatar because i donīt like it, again, "The sheep sindrome". Ears are easy to make, you canīt be a good artist if you donīt know to do them right, someone told in some post that if donīt do good ears then you canīt be a good organic modeler, i agree with it.

I wasn't going to write such a long reply to your imaturity but I think
you need it!

- Iīm very mature, thanks, mature enough to see what you are trying to do.

DigiLusionist
03-12-2003, 11:49 PM
eeeeaaaasy... eeeeaaaasy... You'll pop a vein.

Adrian Lopez
03-12-2003, 11:51 PM
Geez! After reading this thread and the one on drawing tools, I'm pretty much convinced that paranoid and hyper-sensitive are good words to describe Mr. ModelMonkey's attitude on this forum.

Modelmonkey: People's suggestions and requests for improving Lightwave aren't secret plots to damage Lightwave's interface, they're simply suggestions from Lightwave's users. Take your own advice and learn to deal with other people's opinions.

PHilly[Dee]
03-13-2003, 03:00 AM
folks, judge my modelling skills, please...

and I quote: "See the result, a bad modelled ear as an avatar."

http://www.phillydee.com/img/earx1.jpg

PHilly[Dee]
03-13-2003, 03:03 AM
another pic...

took about 2 hours to model(I know, I'm pretty slow:rolleyes: ) Could someone please tell me if it's ORGANIC...

maybe I should change my avatar afterall... :D

Matt
03-13-2003, 07:48 AM
for a start I am doing this for no money, nor am I trying to get a job at newtek
I just enjoy interface design, and yes actually I am qualified to do so
whether you like it is up to you, people differ, you are entitled to your "opinion" and that's totally fine with me.

I'm not trying to 'fool' anyone into thinking anything, I posted it
here FOR opinions good OR bad, I don't really mind, I big enough to
take it!!!

but you know what, this is all wasted on you.

you are right though, you are different from other people on this
board, you are unique, you're a fool with nothing to say that anyone
wants to hear.

ouch, did I just say that!

anyway, that's all I'm saying, post away, flame me, I really don't mind! I'll leave my replies to the intelligent people on this board.

:D

ModelMonkey
03-13-2003, 09:14 AM
for a start I am doing this for no money, nor am I trying to get a job at newtek
I just enjoy interface design, and yes actually I am qualified to do so
whether you like it is up to you, people differ, you are entitled to your "opinion" and that's totally fine with me.

- Now you are not making it for money, but if newtek picks your idea, isnīt a bad thing right? Still fooling us? I think you are qualified if you donīt reduce the workspace and re-think better about the interface, now you are giving to me and more users a reduced workspace, and i have the right to donīt like it. Even if it is to get your pockets with money or not.


I'm not trying to 'fool' anyone into thinking anything, I posted it
here FOR opinions good OR bad, I don't really mind, I big enough to
take it!!!

- I wish it was like you said, but it isnīt.

but you know what, this is all wasted on you.

- Do you know what discussion forum is? Well i hope so. If you think you came here and itīs all roses you are fooling yourself. You bet that when i have the oportunity i will continue to give diferent point of view, either you like it or not.

you are right though, you are different from other people on this
board, you are unique, you're a fool with nothing to say that anyone
wants to hear.

- Some people agree with me, they just donīt have the courage to post their opinions, if you want to make interfaces for you friends to see, then keep your ideas hidden in your desk folder, you fool.

ouch, did I just say that!

- Idem.


anyway, that's all I'm saying, post away, flame me, I really don't mind! I'll leave my replies to the intelligent people on this board.

- If being intellingent is agree with you ideas and say "nice interface", then iīm glad that iīm not "intelligent" and i post different opinions, just to make people see another point of view, either you like it or not.

DigiLusionist
03-13-2003, 11:09 AM
This just gets better and better.

JohnL
03-13-2003, 01:05 PM
Some people agree with me, they just donīt have the courage to post their opinions...
Whenever someone says something like that, you know they are totally full of BS.

I seem to remember a moron called Nixon who used the same line of crap. He called these people the silent majority.

Boy was he an asshol*!!!

Lamont
03-13-2003, 04:23 PM
I assume that the blue area is collapse-able right? And all that will be left is the red area? If that's so, then it looks like a good contender for LW8, at least ideas from it.

All I care about is the view area, since all I use are hot-keys. If LW could just show the OpenGL window with no borders, I'd be so damn happy.

I skimmed over the old forum about this topic, so forgive me if I am just re-hashing.

How would the tabs move?

chico
03-13-2003, 08:43 PM
Some people agree with me, they just donīt have the courage to post their opinions...

Yea um....sure...they are everywhere, I bet.
http://www.nurseemployment.cc/TX%20TUMBLE%20WEED.jpg

Top work. Matt. Dont be discouraged by clowns who simply like to hear their own voices.
Feel free to keep on going as you are. I think everyone here (bar the obvious imbecile's) understands what it is you are doing and appreciate you doing it.

Keep it up.
Cam

PXLPSH
03-14-2003, 03:57 AM
I would definantely agree that taking up too much workspace is not the way to go...the way that lightwave is being presented here.. is very cinema 4d like.. Dont get me wrong ,cinema is a good app.. but lightwaves clean uncluttered menus are absolutely awesome.. I think that you have great ideas and they look pretty, I just have a hard time with too much interface and too little workspace.

DigiLusionist
03-14-2003, 10:06 AM
Matt, do you happen to know how to create Flash movies? If you do, you should probably do a mock up of your interface to show how the tabs drift in and out.

There still seems to be confusion about menus taking up too much space.

Matt
03-14-2003, 11:24 AM
Hi Digi'

You know I was thinking the same thing, I've already done
one Flash based simulation for a 'selection' feature.

You can view it on the "vX" project website here. (http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/)

Concerns with the viewport size are totally valid, but because in
my head I know how the interface can be customised I know it
won't be a problem, the trouble is a screenshot can't really show
the interface 'working'.

I did plan to do more simulations like the one on the site but I've
been mega busy here!

I'll have a look this weekend if I have time!

:)

Valter
03-14-2003, 11:27 AM
Hi all. stay easy guys.

well. The interface is very beautiful, but I don't agree with reduce of workspace.
I think that is lost many area with large tabs and large ruler in the matt interface. Maybe if could reduce this areas the interface will be better.


excuse my english.

later and peace

ModelMonkey
03-14-2003, 11:30 AM
Some people here donīt understand what are the implications of having a reduced workspace, But iīm not going to explain them, you canīt explain sheeps how to work.

Even if you can hidden his interface you still have to call it some time, then, reducing the workspace. And itīs not only the major editors, itīs lots of commands that are in the sidebars right now. Most of them really basic commands, that donīt justify calling his king size interface. The guy really wants to put all the commands there, and make us work in a gameboy window! I always liked the fact lightwave have a big workspace, and i donīt like the idea of a moron could change the way we deal with lightwave. PXLPSH i agree with you that this interface is more c4d type, we all like to work with big workspaces, thatīs a fact. And i am disapointed that some users (I donīt call them users i call them sheeps) give more attention to a pretty interface than how do you use it. Most of us are so used to lightwave interface that we donīt even notice it. Because of itīs well designed menus. And people that agree with me, join me, sheeps do a lot of noise but they donīt bite us.

Lamont
03-14-2003, 11:49 AM
Yeah dude. You're pushing it. Not only you but it really detracts from the task at hand when people take shots at eachother. So it'd be cool if we'd just post about the task at hand: critique the design.

Ahhh, that took some serious restraint to not lay into ya...

ModelMonkey
03-14-2003, 11:51 AM
Matt quotes: - was aware of this when I did it, the interface IS larger and will take up some screen space than the current LW interface - If you do have multiple monitors the tabs can be 'pulled off' to be placed on another screen thus freeing screen space on the main work screen.

Taking workspace size is not a good idea - Posted by me.

I agree in theory, but it depends what you replace it with, the size of the buttons, space around the buttons on the 'vX' interface could be reduced quite a lot, but it would be cramped and difficult to work in.

Matt last quote: - Concerns with the viewport size are totally valid.

Is this the person that you want to make a lightwave interface? We are whatching you, donīt think we are stupid.

PHilly[Dee]
03-14-2003, 11:53 AM
I like the fact that the graph ed will be a part of the same window. wether users will minimize it and keep a big workspace, that's up to them. That alone I think is worth NT taking a look at the workspace idea(forgive me, ModelMonkey). I'm sure if you use shortcut keys having the option to hide the entire interface(like Alt-F2 currently) would be a plus.

Again, Matt's done something courageous and stuck his neck out and got a few ideas going. As long as the proposed interface still has a lot of custimizable ability, I say bring it on.

How about an interface toggle button that has the option of toggling between LW3(amiga)/4/5/6/7/8+?:D:D

Lamont
03-14-2003, 11:54 AM
Keep in mind that a heavily graphical interface will not run well at lower resolutions. Some people run at lower resolutions because of eye problems.

ModelMonkey
03-14-2003, 12:00 PM
Totally agree with you Lamont, but you lay on me? hehe, well iīm a very large person, i guess it would be an hard fight!. :)
But iīm glad that we agree in some points.

Matt
03-16-2003, 08:24 AM
yawn!

Matt
03-16-2003, 08:43 AM
I have to add, the way you go back and quote posts is very sad,
almost desperate to try and get people to agree with you.

You make it like I have some conspiracy going on!

I particularly love this gem:

"Is this the person that you want to make a lightwave interface?
We are whatching you, donīt think we are stupid."

Hahahaha do you always get this worked from screen shot
concept ideas? I think you need to relax a little, they are
JUST ideas, is it really worth it?

The reason I say I know the viewport is an issue is because yeah
if it could be bigger great, BUT I stand by what I said before it
DEPENDS on how what you replace it with and how it works, not
all of this is shown in a screenshot, so you are going off on one for
without knowing the full story.

Besides, who ever said it was perfect? Not me, but you make it out
like I'm trying to say "yeah, this is great everyone should use this,
I'm just the best . . . whatever"

All of this sh*t could have been avoided if you'd have said something
like, "the only problem I have is the size of the new viewport"

instead you throw your toys out of the pram and start abusing everyones opinions.

You did the same on the "Better Drawing Tools" thread, I can't
imagine you have many friends if that's how you conduct yourself.

Matt
03-16-2003, 08:48 AM
Lamont, any UI shading wouldn't be drawn when the screen
depth goes below a certain value.

You would have slightly different interface code.

Matt
03-16-2003, 09:10 AM
one more thing, compare this, the screen shot you are worried about
with a 1280 x 1024 screen equivalent.

Yes some people will have lower screen resolutions, but you can't
have one size fits all, just not possible.

1280x1024 screen comparisonhttp://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/gfx/screen_size_test.jpg

Lamont
03-16-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Matt
Yes some people will have lower screen resolutions, but you can't have one size fits all, just not possible.
I know that, I run my screen at 1600x1200. I'm just asking for the people who do run at small sizes. Because there is a guy in my office who is loosing his sight and runs at a low resolution.

But in the image I posted above, it's true that the blue area is hide-able right? And you said that they can be torn off and moved where you need, so I'm all for this interface because I just want it all to be hidden with a key-stroke (I am sure it can). And different degrees of hidden interface.

Matt
03-16-2003, 12:29 PM
right from the off the idea is that it can be totallycustomised
to however you like it, you can have just one massive viewport if
you're a hotkey junkie, or if you access the panels a lot you can
keep the ones you use most commonly on screen using the
tabbed area, or you can lay it out exactly like the current lw.

but to try and show all this in tons of screen shots would take
too much time so I opted to show one setup and describe how
it could work.

but for some people to grasp this very simple concept is obviously
asking too much.

Lamont
03-16-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Matt
But for some people to grasp this very simple concept is obviously asking too much. Don't get offended dude, just keep posting your work because obviously people like it.

Hurben
03-16-2003, 02:23 PM
I think its a wonderful idea (Baa! Baa!) :P

Right now the current interface, although minimal, is somewhat clumsy.
When I'm using Layout for instance, and I open up the graph editor, or any non-modal window, I like to move it to the second monitor. If I close the window and re-open it, it opens on the primary monitor and I have to drag it over again. :rolleyes:

What are you using to design the interface? Photoshop?
Are you just making the graphics or are you writing code to make it work as well?

I hope you don't mind me playing with your design, slap me if you do, but there's a few things I'd like to mention that need a graphical reference.

In the attached image I've streamlined the left side panel.
Why did you have it large to begin with? It doesn't need to be...

Also, after looking at the current interface, I tinted some of the buttons to see how it would look, I think it helps to break up the buttons into categories which make it easier for the brain to process quickly. (I'm talking about the purple and green in the side menu)

I've also marked out areas of wasted space in orange..

Space 1; I think is for added customized menus

Space 2; Now this space is in the current interface and I've always wanted to dock my image viewer up there, you know how at the moment, if you close it you lose all the test renders you've done, and if you minimize it it goes down to the bottom and covers your workspace. I'm sure there are other things that could be docked there..

Space 3; I'm not too sure whats going on here atm.

Space 4; ..or here either getting tired now

I hope my input is of some help, and I'll get round to adding anything I think of. I believe your project is a long awaited and necessary adjustment to an unbelievable application.
It just needs tweaking, and I'm glad you came to the users for discussion. :)
s.

theosmekhanes
03-16-2003, 05:32 PM
Wooo Hooo,

This is gettn' good.

Matt, I personally don't care about the alleged loss of viewer space. Apple will be comming out with a 30" 2400x1500 (film 2K) display.

With a dual display config, one screen could show oyur OGL scene 1:1, and the other screen will have all the panels and scene managers you could need....Hmmmmm...have you used FCP or AE latley?

Just consolidate all the functions you can into an integrated panel and then worry about trimming things back.

keep on truckin'

Matt
03-17-2003, 03:49 AM
hi lamont - I don't mind critism at all, it's part of my job, I deal with
it every day, but there's critism and personal attacks, the line seems
a little too blurred with the way some of the comments are made by
ahem, you know who! :)

- - -

hurben - it's all done in Photoshop (LOTS of layers!)

regarding your modifications and questions . . . :

Space 1 - Yep that's right

Space 2 - Correct again, this could be removed and the viewport
gadgets overlayed in a transparent fashion, could be difficult to
see with complex wireframe scenes though, hence the grey background.

Space 3 - It's going to have a pop-up menu there (see Frame Scripts thread)
But removing this space won't gain any viewport space, just more
timeline space.

UI gadgets do need some breathing space too, it would have been
possible to pack everything very tightly together but that would
make for a confusing interface.

Space 4 - Again just layout space, but the 'Object Plugins' text
could be moved obove the corresponding list gadget and then
everything moved across, but like the point above this would not
gain any viewport space, to do that you need to optimise the vertical
spaces, of which there aren't many.

When I did this I didn't try to optimise every inch of space, because
I wanted to do it fairly quickly to show the _idea_ not a perfectly
polished product.

But you're right I could go back in and optimise the space. For
example the tab font could be made smaller and then the tabs
could be made smaller.

The timeline could be made vertically smaller and have a transparent
slider so you can see the frame divisions.

The font on the top menus could be smaller ths reducing the space
needed around them.

These changes would all create a larger viewport, but not by
huge leaps.

CB_3D
03-18-2003, 08:28 PM
I really like the graphical side of your idea. It looks very sober and clean. I dislike the current brushed look. Itīs too retro and needs a heavy facelifting.

Total configurability of the look and menus would be great.

When it comes to docking and how to handle panels, Photoshop would be my first reference.

DaveW
03-20-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by CB_3D
When it comes to docking and how to handle panels, Photoshop would be my first reference.

The only problem with that is that photoshop doesn't dock panels, that's one of my biggest gripes with photoshop. I'd recommend they take a look at Corel Photopaint's dockers; they can float if you want (like ps), they snap into place (like ps), they roll-up (like ps, except they roll all the way up), they group together into one panel (like ps), they dock, and when docked there is a little arrow icon that you can click to expand/collapse the panels when you want more room.

Valter
03-20-2003, 08:22 PM
matt
try creat some icons on viewport like this
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=495


It's a sugestion only :D

Stooch
07-14-2005, 02:03 PM
DigiLusionist, is not up to you to determine my level of professionalism, itīs all about personalities. Some people accept everything like a group of sheeps. Most users spent hundreds of dollars in top computers and some months after they bought they donīt get mad for having a piece of junk. This could be called the era of buy and accept, even if it sux. So i donīt accept things easy, ok?....

blah bklah blah blah.


look, my observation is that you are an immature kid or a professional *******. Im sorry if you dont like my observation but i have the courage to make it.

I dont think you are a professional and if you are then i wouldnt want you on my team. The ability to deliver a honest and constructive critique is what separates professionals from amateurs, you throw around insults instead of critiques and im giving you the same treatment. Treat others as you expect to be treated they say.

Matt as far as the interface, keep up the good work - it may not be perfect but i like where you are heading. You should work for newtek. The cleaner the better in my book! Take some cues from messiahs layout, its pretty nice.

MooseDog
07-15-2005, 01:19 AM
thx for keeping this moving matt. it seems to me that interfaces are not as cut and dried as one would think. chk this out:

blender (http://www.blender3d.org/cms/showpic.php?file=uploads%2Fpics%2Fscreenmargarito. jpg&width=1024m&height=768m&bodyTag=%3Cbody%20bgcolor%3D%22black%22%3E&wrap=%3Ca%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aclose%28%29%3B% 22%3E%20%7C%20%3C%2Fa%3E&md5=4269d27e5935cbd872102b0d977d23e9)

they have a great app, a great team and have my respect, but this is inscrutable LOL.

in your design, have you given any thought to those of use who access the menus thru the current ctrl-shift mouse button floating menus? this method, if combined with collapsable tabs/sections would open up a ton of real estate.

jeremyhardin
11-16-2005, 02:29 PM
i love thread revivals. particularly when it relates to this design. i'd really like to see it implemented. newtek have no comment on it though:
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=27578

Matt
11-17-2005, 11:13 AM
Crikey! Who dragged this thread up from the bowels of ****!!! Last post I made on this was 03-17-2003, 10:49 AM!!!!

Still, glad to see people are interested in the project (which hasn't been updated in quite some time!)

Hmmmm, might have to start looking at it again!

Cheers
Matt

spirit_of_stars
11-19-2005, 02:19 PM
Monkey... Don't forget... The panels can be put away... You will be able to do what you want with your interface. Check this version... Not far away of what you have now in LW8... http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/gfx/lightwave_7_vx.png

Matt... Is it possible with your interface to have more than one objects proprieties panel open at the same time??? Same question for the graphe editor...???

Matt
11-19-2005, 08:52 PM
I wouldn't bother posting messages for ModelMonkey, he was banned years ago!!!!

But to answer your question, it's all theoretical, so anything would be possible!