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Snosrap
03-24-2016, 02:06 PM
Is it true that bucket rendering is coming to LW Next? What are the advantages of it for LW artists? Memory usage? Faster?

Schwyhart
03-24-2016, 02:08 PM
You could render each bucket on different machines or CPU's. You could pause a render/save a render in progress, then resume at a later time.
These are my thoughts anyway.

Snosrap
03-24-2016, 05:18 PM
Pause and resume would be cool

spherical
03-24-2016, 09:26 PM
Would be if you could save out an in-progress render; like you could with FPrime. Can't count how many times I was on a crunch and AA was taking forever. Just gimme the thing at the current level!

spherical
03-24-2016, 09:28 PM
D*mn forum goes wheels-up every day at this time; more than half the time generating double posts like THIS ONE! When am I going to learn to check the clock before editing?

JonW
03-24-2016, 09:59 PM
Can't count how many times I was on a crunch and AA was taking forever. Just gimme the thing at the current level!

If this was the only upgrade, the next LW would be worth buying for this alone.

spherical
03-25-2016, 12:10 AM
Heh. Hear that!

creacon
03-25-2016, 01:18 AM
Or start compositing before your render is completely done?
It took the industry over 10 years to see the advantages of progressive rendering, in another 10 years they will probably see the advantages of this little FPrime feature too ;-)



Would be if you could save out an in-progress render; like you could with FPrime. Can't count how many times I was on a crunch and AA was taking forever. Just gimme the thing at the current level!

Norka
03-25-2016, 10:44 AM
Resume Render is supposed to come soon in the Octane 3.x cycle, per Marcus (abstrax). Looking forward to this one, for sure.

hrgiger
03-25-2016, 11:17 AM
pause and resume is one of the things I miss about Fprime. The only downside is it generated huge files but these days that's not a huge problem.

Snosrap
03-25-2016, 11:40 AM
So is bucket rendering coming to LW?

Kryslin
03-25-2016, 02:57 PM
I believe it was mentioned in one of the blog posts... The volumetric ones. Whether or not this is like PRMAN's buckets (which can be rendered across a network) or not, we'll see.

Tobian
03-25-2016, 05:56 PM
Nope http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?149523-Discussion-for-the-New-Render-Buffer-Workflow-Blog-Post&p=1463326&viewfull=1#post1463326

Snosrap
03-25-2016, 06:08 PM
Nope http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?149523-Discussion-for-the-New-Render-Buffer-Workflow-Blog-Post&p=1463326&viewfull=1#post1463326

No to bucket rendering or no to bucket rendering across a render farm? Not exactly clear.

Tobian
03-25-2016, 06:32 PM
Bucket rendering has a number of distinct advantages.

*Dynamic tessellation and geometry generation on the fly in any given bucket. allowing you to have infinitely more detail than the frame buffer can allow
*Split computer rendering. Buckets split and farmed out to multiple PC's or given threads
*Holding all of the samples in one go for filtering.

and some disadvantages

*slight mismatches, due to floating point errors between CPU's
*interpolation issues, especially for interpolated radiosity, meaning you have to over-render and then soft blend buckets.
*Huge complexity working out dynamically generated tessellation for secondary bounce rays.

Strictly speaking what we have previewing is tile based rendering, where instead of scanlines, the render is being broken up into tiles (Square regions), and what appears to be dynamic tile allocation for VPR rendering (it renders tiles under your mouse pointer). but we don't have buckets, which has the above benefits and headaches... We just have square shaped scanline areas...

hrgiger
03-25-2016, 06:40 PM
Nope http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?149523-Discussion-for-the-New-Render-Buffer-Workflow-Blog-Post&p=1463326&viewfull=1#post1463326

yeah are you sure Andrew? It looks like he just said no to bucket rendering across renderfarm and also no to tone mapping? But it does say bucket size in the render panel.

Matt
03-25-2016, 06:46 PM
yeah are you sure Andrew? It looks like he just said no to bucket rendering across renderfarm and also no to tone mapping? But it does say bucket size in the render panel.

Incorrectly labelled, it's no longer the case, now called 'Render Tile Size'.

Snosrap
03-25-2016, 06:52 PM
now called 'Render Tile Size'. Okay - what's that?

hrgiger
03-25-2016, 06:59 PM
Incorrectly labelled, it's no longer the case, now called 'Render Tile Size'.

Thanks for clarifying Matt.

Tobian
03-25-2016, 07:03 PM
Okay - what's that?

https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2015/10/render-sneak-peek/ watch as the video shows, it starts cleaning up the noise around the mouse in patches, these are the tiles...

magiclight
03-26-2016, 06:37 AM
Dynamic tessellation and geometry generation on the fly in any given bucket. allowing you to have infinitely more detail than the frame buffer can allow

What good whould that do for a ray tracer where shadow rays, reflection rays and everything else is bouncing around in all the other buckets anyway (you would need to tesselate all those buckets also or delay the evaluation of all those rays), I can understand the use of buckets in old Reyes style rendering wihout any GI when you have a correlation between the buckets and the visible geometry, but when a shadow ray bounce into another bucket and from there into a third bucket and so on, it will just slow down the rendering a lot, there is no way to control what buckets are hit by a single pixel evaluation so to get any use of it you would need to sort the rays in some form of coherence pattern and that would use a huge amount of memory, or is there some clever way to fix that ?

Tobian
03-26-2016, 08:41 AM
Yeah it's a big technical hurdle, and one of the reasons Reyes is painfully slow for radiosity and reflection rays, and why Disney went another route for its Hyperion renderer. Arnold manages, as does vray, but its complex to calculate!

jwiede
03-28-2016, 05:47 AM
Arnold manages, as does vray, but its complex to calculate!

Considering where those two engines place in the renderer performance spectrum (and usage spectrum, for that matter), any additional complexity detriment appears easily countered/offset by other (esp. perf. & usage) benefits.

The benefits buckets offer to task distribution/decomposition (and thus scalability) alone likely counters complexity, given the direction computing has taken overall w.r.t. multithreading/multiprocessing, distributed or otherwise.

Zerowaitstate
03-28-2016, 06:51 AM
You must be gettng ready for VR..... one for each eye ball

Zerowaitstate
03-28-2016, 06:58 AM
D*mn forum goes wheels-up every day at this time; more than half the time generating double posts like THIS ONE! When am I going to learn to check the clock before editing?

yep that would make sense with the quote included .... / ignore getting tired

Tobian
03-28-2016, 09:25 AM
Considering where those two engines place in the renderer performance spectrum (and usage spectrum, for that matter), any additional complexity detriment appears easily countered/offset by other (esp. perf. & usage) benefits.

The benefits buckets offer to task distribution/decomposition (and thus scalability) alone likely counters complexity, given the direction computing has taken overall w.r.t. multithreading/multiprocessing, distributed or otherwise.

Actually yes, that's another main benefit to the use of buckets, it's a single thread per bucket, so if you can sort out your bucket code, you don't need to distribute threads, however this is where buckets and tiles converge, because you simply have one thread per tile also, and just have more tiles simultaneously rendering, the more cores you have.

jwiede
03-28-2016, 12:31 PM
Incorrectly labelled, it's no longer the case, now called 'Render Tile Size'.

Seems like many came away from Lino's answer as I did, interpreting it as him saying "yes" to buckets, but "no" to network bucket rendering.

So, just to be explicit: Are you saying the next LW's new render engine is not a bucket-based renderer?

Thanks!

Tobian
03-28-2016, 03:39 PM
Incorrectly labelled, it's no longer the case, now called 'Render Tile Size'.

The screenshot doesn't show a 'this is something else size' on it, just buckets, which was an incorrect label. :)