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lightscape
03-17-2016, 11:12 PM
Coincidentally I accidentally formatted the usb drive that had the license today and thought wtf did I do. Oh well its dead anyway.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=8143947#post8143947

calilifestyle
03-18-2016, 10:03 AM
yeah it's been dead for well over a year.

Dillon
03-18-2016, 10:22 AM
What a shame. I bought Messiah when it was first released as an animation plugin for lightwave.

Glad I didn't proceed down this rabbit hole. It's a shame, marvelous animation system.

raymondtrace
03-18-2016, 10:57 AM
I was a Messiah lurker since it first came out but did not purchase until the "dare to share" promo. At that point, I suspected the "company" was circling the drain. So the first thing I did was to determine how to preserve the license, should the company vanish. The licensing system is not very sophisticated. Just record the 8-character volume serial ID so that when you have to reformat or move to another drive, you can restore the volume serial ID and still use your license.

jeric_synergy
03-18-2016, 12:41 PM
Could you please repeat that in non-techese?

raymondtrace
03-18-2016, 01:51 PM
This page is a bit long winded but the process is really painless...

http://www.wintips.org/how-to-change-hard-disks-volume-serial-number-volume-id/

The key thing to note is that the volume serial ID is a distinct value. You don't want to repeat the same ID on multiple drives at once. This technique is ideal on a portable USB drive from which you run Messiah. Altering the volume serial number on a local system drive (C:\) can be dangerous as there are likely other processes and licenses that may be tied to it.

EDIT: so even if your Messiah is running happily today, it is a good idea to record your current volume serial ID now so that you can restore it and your licensing once you need to reformat or move to a new drive.

HarverdGrad
03-18-2016, 02:50 PM
Fori Owurowa + Paula Comensky owe back the subscription money they stole.


***************************************
10/10/2014

Dear messiahStudio User:

There's only 24 hrs left to take advantage of our offer, before we close it out.

Big changes are about to happen for messiahStudio and you. We have been working on a deal with a company
that could change the industry, and give you an advantage as a messiahStudio user. We will be able
to add more resources, improve the software, and give you a greater user experience; as well as support
your projects in interesting ways. This will also mean the future cost of the product and upgrades, may not
be solely under our control. You are being offered one chance to save on both current and future versions, before
this happens.
If you want to lock in your ability to take advantage of the current price savings, these are your last
opportunities to do so. Don't say we didn't warn you :)

MESSIAHSTUDIO 5 USERS:
Upgrade to version 6, so you are not priced out of the future:
$20 http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/shop_upgradeBF6.html
Anyone who is not on version 6 by the time this takes places, will not be able to upgrade, and will have
to pay the new prices, as if you were a new user. There will be nothing we can do to help you after that point.


MESSIAHSTUDIO 6 USERS:
If you want to lock in your future version price, avoid the price increase, and gain the advantages that
new users will have, without paying the new user price, convert to a subscription license: You can cancel it at any time, and still
run the version you have from that time forward. Your ability to run the software will not expire, only your access to new things
from that point on. If you re-subscribe after that, it will be at the new price, so it's to your advantage to maintain it.
This is the best deal we can give you as a current user; and soon you'll see why:
$40 a year: http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/shopSUB6.html


We're sorry we can't disclose any more information at this time; our plans involve other companies,
so we are not at liberty to put out new information, before the appropriate time.
Thanks for your understanding. We look forward to sharing with you what's in store for the future.

Fori Owurowa
President, pmG Worldwide LLC
www.projectmessiah.com


pmG Worldwide LLC

The new messiahStudio6: used to create the world's first 360 degree 3D dome
CG movie experience: TurtleTrek (SeaWorld, Orlando Florida) and for the
short: 850 Meters, by Joeri Christiaen www.850meters.com

MichaelT
03-18-2016, 03:25 PM
Yet another DRM failure then... how surprising. This is why I love how LW currently handles its license.

Surrealist.
03-19-2016, 02:41 AM
Fori Owurowa + Paula Comensky owe back the subscription money they stole.


There have already been several cases where people successfully filed claims with PayPal and got the money back.

Basically at this point if you want you money back, contact your bank or paypl and go through the process of filing a claim.

Too bad it has come to that frankly. But at this point it seems the only solution.

Julez4001
03-19-2016, 08:29 AM
I am so disappointed at Fori.
I have nothing but fond memories of M:S and may use in the future if it makes since ... but I would have love for it progress.
Wish he would have just sold the code to Modo or Lightwave (SETUP tab)

50one
03-19-2016, 09:05 AM
Well, wouldn't go that far and call them a liars...they said big changes are coming.

GregMalick
03-19-2016, 11:04 AM
I am so disappointed at Fori.
I have nothing but fond memories of M:S and may use in the future if it makes since ... but I would have love for it progress.
Wish he would have just sold the code to Modo or Lightwave (SETUP tab)

Yes it is very sad. I wish we knew what was really happening there.

jeric_synergy
03-19-2016, 06:26 PM
My money is on ego and cash. (Band name!)

++++++++
This thread made me go look for my Messiah-- can't locate the USB drive. I suppose it's no great loss ($40), and messing with it would just take time away from learning Unity, Blender, and 3dCoat.

Surrealist.
03-19-2016, 09:29 PM
I don't think they lied or misrepresented or scammed. I think they genuinely had something they thought would be groundbreaking. And for what ever reason that project has simply appeared to have failed. That is a more than plausible explanation. Those things do happen in business. Even big business. With a start up or small company the odd are even more against you.

ernpchan
03-19-2016, 10:25 PM
They should retire their website then. Seems misleading to keep offering it for purchase.

Surrealist.
03-19-2016, 11:02 PM
The website promotes and existing product that as far as I know you can still license. And definitely download. And the and vids/manual are still online for those people still using it. Setup Tab is an entirely independent site. Not hosted by pmg at all. I think some people are getting the two confused. Also Messiah as it stands now, in what you are purchasing, there is no promise other than the existing product. So there is nothing wrong in that at all.

Now that said if you bought the product and were expecting updates, you'd be disappointed I imagine given the current state of affairs. But I don't see why they should take the site down. That would be a worse offense to existing users.

MichaelT
03-20-2016, 01:44 PM
Well.. their total lack of communication certainly are not doing them any favors.

jwiede
03-20-2016, 02:34 PM
There have already been several cases where people successfully filed claims with PayPal and got the money back.

Basically at this point if you want you money back, contact your bank or paypl and go through the process of filing a claim.

Too bad it has come to that frankly. But at this point it seems the only solution.

That won't work for the Mac customers who they strung along about the "comming soon" (sic) Mac version of Messiah Studio 6, and ultimately never delivered despite accepting payment for it. They (Fori & Paula) repeatedly and explicitly denied requests for refunds from paid customers of Mac Messiah Studio 6, despite never releasing the product. Fori's and Paula's actions in that incident were inexcusable. What Fori & Paula later did to the entire remaining Messiah customer base is wholly predictable based on their prior actions towards Mac MS6 customers.

What Fori & Paula did is NOT excused by the ability of a few customers to recover their money, their actions were deliberate, and _repeatedly_ deceitful, indicating an intentional pattern of misconduct. There is NO excuse for that.

jwiede
03-20-2016, 02:50 PM
Well, wouldn't go that far and call them a liars...they said big changes are coming.

They repeatedly across a period of many months sent out emailings selling a Mac version of Messiah Studio 6, even accepting customer payments for that product. Publicly the site still lists it as "comming soon", though it is absolutely clear they _never_ had any reasonably-based expectation of being able to deliver such a product yet accepted payment for it anyway (and further, denied customers refunds). All their attempts to misdirect and excuse their lack of delivery intentionally ignore that detail, and are thus further deceits in support of the original deceit. "Liars" IS accurate, but IMO, almost too nice a term given the full scope of their actions.

Surrealist.
03-21-2016, 04:37 AM
That won't work for the Mac customers

Paypal or your bank don't care what platform you are on. If you were strung along and treated in a worse way, all the more evidence to support your case. And it will be a very easy case to make anyway.

So if they took your money and did not deliver, you need to get it back. Plain and simple. As I see it anyway.

jwiede
03-21-2016, 08:29 AM
Paypal or your bank don't care what platform you are on. If you were strung along and treated in a worse way, all the more evidence to support your case. And it will be a very easy case to make anyway.

So if they took your money and did not deliver, you need to get it back. Plain and simple. As I see it anyway.

It has nothing to do with platform, it has to do with the length of time between preorders and when it became clear no Mac version was coming. By then it was much too late for PayPal to be willing to give refunds.

hrgiger
03-21-2016, 10:33 AM
Its really just a shame. I dont know if it was just bs about them merging with another company but it certainly looks now like they were just trying to scam people. It just adds insult to injury that the site is still up presumably still taking new oreders from people who dont know any better.

raymondtrace
03-21-2016, 11:43 AM
In mild defense of pmG in regard to Mac, this was never going to be more than an implementation of Wine. That was always known, even if Mac users did not understand what Wine was. I suspect Fori didn't know much about Wine either and was hoping that whatever incompatibility popped up would be resolved with an update to OS X and/or Wine. But, yes, he could have made things right for his Mac customers after it became apparent that the incompatibilities would not resolve. I suspect the lack of refunds are because that money was already spent.

One might assume that the projectmessiah.com site is only there out of neglect (to shut it down or to keep it up-to-date). But it did go down a while ago for about a week or two. The fact that they brought it back shows that they are still interested in taking money...or at least leaving their licensing system active so people can still activate their software.

MichaelT
03-21-2016, 12:50 PM
I think there should be a law forcing companies to either leave tools to rid the protection, or take it away themselves.. when they go out of business (not saying this is the case, I am speaking in general terms here) I'm mostly saying that because I am interested in history, and these days loose more valuable pieces of history every day, than previous human history combined. It is a great tragedy.

Surrealist.
03-21-2016, 03:09 PM
It has nothing to do with platform, it has to do with the length of time between preorders and when it became clear no Mac version was coming. By then it was much too late for PayPal to be willing to give refunds.

Interesting. The limit is now 180 days. But it sounds like it would have gone beyond that.

Also, if for instance you have a set up where using payplal simply takes money out of your bank, you can also simply file the claim with the bank directly and they don't have the same limits.

Additionally I would still contact PayPal with the details of the situation (co-resplendence with PMG etc.) with the mac. And find out what other avenues could be taken.

I find it a little hard to believe that there is absolutely no recourse for something this blatant. If the case could be made that PMG knowingly strung customers on and "worked the system" I'd be willing to bet they'd accept cases with longer times.

Surrealist.
03-21-2016, 03:13 PM
Its really just a shame. I dont know if it was just bs about them merging with another company but it certainly looks now like they were just trying to scam people. It just adds insult to injury that the site is still up presumably still taking new oreders from people who dont know any better.

Naw I don't agree it was a scam at all. I can't think with that. Inexcusable business practice and horrible management yes, but blatant scam, no. Can't get on board with that. Criminal (not delivering what was promised) handling of a money situation, yes. But scam no.

I attribute the website being up as the fact that they are still trying to hold on and save face for a massive screw up. And may still be planing (even if unrealistically) in making good promises made and also continuing to service existing users.

These guys did not make enough money on this to retire. Scamming people in the business they are in would be suicidal. They still have to eat. And no doubt, they still have plans on future projects. They might be delusional about meeting goals, but I don't think even good enough at it to be con artists.

hrgiger
03-21-2016, 03:39 PM
Naw I don't agree it was a scam at all. I can't think with that. Inexcusable business practice and horrible management yes, but blatant scam, no. Can't get on board with that. Criminal (not delivering what was promised) handling of a money situation, yes. But scam no.



First they ran a deal for $40 as an 'experiment' to see how many people would buy in at that price. Then they sent out an email saying they were merging with another company that would bring great improvements to the software and that they couldn't guarantee how long the other company would let them keep the price so low. Then they kept selling it since then (been almost a few years now I believe) at that price, even offering a subscription option and there have been no updates or news in that time. Maybe they didn't intend it to be a scam, maybe their plans fell through. Do I feel scammed? Absolutely. Scamming somone is not always about intent. They promised something, didn't deliver anything, and have not updated users on what is happening or if anything will ever happen. And they continue to sell the software despite all this. They're dishonest and have no integrity at all. If they did, they would let people know the status after all this time. Personally I'm not that upset about $40. But that doesn't change what they've done either.

Surrealist.
03-21-2016, 09:47 PM
Well I am just a stickler when it comes to terms. And yes scamming does imply intent. And like fraud, another word people tend to toss around loosely, it has a very exact definition and especially if you are making a case legally. And it can be the difference between a criminal court and a civil court.

From my experience they have not acted like anyone intending to scam anyone. Initially I got a great piece of software at a great price (40 USD) with the Dare to Share, I learned how to use it and then eventually found a bug in the rendering engine. A real show stopper bug.

I was active on the forums and the bug got reported to Flori. He never ever came on to the forums to say anything about it one way or the other. For a small company and considering the literally days of work I sunk into classifying this bug and the hours it took me to defend it and clarify it and post explicit test results to prove it, I figured I was owed at least an email confirm that it was received. But nadda and I voiced my disappointment with that.

I saw the writing on the wall at that point. And added up with all my experiences, (horrible docs etc) I figured these guys don't know how to manage a company. So I stopped using Messiah and moved on.

A year later Weg came on this forum and picked up something I said mentioning this experience and tried to point out that it was not really a bug. Again I had to defend my point, and he finally saw it. Then took it to Flori. And that led - according to Weg - a few all nighters with coffee hammering out a solution. The result was the bug was fixed for 6.0 and an additional new feature in the render engine.

Pretty cool. Did I ever get any acknowledgement from Flori on this? Of course not. I was not really expecting it at this point.

But one thing is for sure, these were not the actions of someone planning to scam people or take advantage somehow. These are the actions of a programmer who knows how to make innovative software but is clueless about how to run a company, communicate with users, handle getting docs made, etc.

And it sure appears that with that also comes a complete and utter blind spot when it comes to planing things out on the business side. The Kickstater project was horribly managed.

Add to that a very poor assumption about the acceptance of a new technology and you have the recipe for a financial screw up of epic proportions.

The guy could not even come out of his shell to say anything to me about finding that bug. He is not going to come out of his shell to say anything, pretty much ever about anything other than, these announcements he made to promote his next phase.

Horrible horrible management. But not fraudulent and not criminal.

I would make a guess that he has hoped he could pull out of this somehow. But has not found a way to make this happen.

And because he has not done that it has become inexcusable and criminal to people who have lost money.

But the kind of criminal that goes to civil court not criminal court. And there is a vast difference. So I choose my terms wisely. That is just me.

jeric_synergy
03-21-2016, 10:53 PM
Pretty cool. Did I ever get any acknowledgement from Flori on this? Of course not. I was not really expecting it at this point.
LOL :devil: There's a real lack of appreciation for those of us who find bugs.

hrgiger
03-22-2016, 04:55 AM
But the kind of criminal that goes to civil court not criminal court. And there is a vast difference. So I choose my terms wisely. That is just me.

No need to argue about semantics. Intent or not, the end result is the same on the user end. Whether or not the intent was to scam, I think for the most part, people feel scammed.

Surrealist.
03-22-2016, 06:34 AM
It is not semantics. It is the law (in that sentence you quoted) which is necessarily specific. If you are going to sling accusations which imply wrong doing that is also backed by law, sorry, I disagree. You should deal in specific wording.

And the wording makes all the difference here.

And doing otherwise is rather irresponsible in my opinion.

I think we should maintain a level of respect for the people we don't know as much as or more than if we actually know them. And that is absent on the internet.

Now for some strange reason I have been characterized here as a person who is "making excuses" for PMG. That is odd. I am only being as objective as possible.

Additionally I am treating them as harshly as you can imagine. I have actually encouraged (and instructed) people to get their money back. And because of this, in the past, here on this forum, and on the Set Up tab forums, people have done just that. As a direct result of what I have suggested.

I'd say that is fairly severe treatment.

If I were to do that here with LW 3D Group, or any other software company for that matter, I don't imagine I would last very long on the forums.

And of course it would not be warranted here. And that is just the point. If I did act that way, people would consider it is extreme and over the top.

But I do something as about as extreme as anyone could do and I am characterized as making excuses or arguing semantics.

Go figure.

raymondtrace
03-22-2016, 08:00 AM
No need to argue about semantics. Intent or not, the end result is the same on the user end. Whether or not the intent was to scam, I think for the most part, people feel scammed.

As much as I love reading legal cases being argued in software forums... if anyone truly believes a crime is involved, they should contact the Arizona attorney general (or the FBI if this is believed to be a crime committed outside of AZ).

I'm confident this is just a matter of terrible business management.

hrgiger
03-22-2016, 08:22 AM
As much as I love reading legal cases being argued in software forums... if anyone truly believes a crime is involved, they should contact the Arizona attorney general (or the FBI if this is believed to be a crime committed outside of AZ).

I'm confident this is just a matter of terrible business management.

Sigh, I'm not even talking legality here. I'm talking about how any buyer of Messiah in the last few years might feel about PMG at this particular moment. Whether or not they intended to scam people, that is how it comes across.

Wickedpup
03-22-2016, 09:16 AM
I think we should maintain a level of respect for the people we don't know as much as or more than if we actually know them. And that is absent on the internet.

Now for some strange reason I have been characterized here as a person who is "making excuses" for PMG. That is odd. I am only being as objective as possible.

Additionally I am treating them as harshly as you can imagine. I have actually encouraged (and instructed) people to get their money back. And because of this, in the past, here on this forum, and on the Set Up tab forums, people have done just that. As a direct result of what I have suggested.

I'd say that is fairly severe treatment.



Nah, their actions says enough. They´ve made promises they didn´t keep, and more important, they have done NOTHING to remedy their mistakes. Not even a word. So I have no problem with people calling it a scam.
I have a problem however understanding why some people seem so eager to make excuses for Fori. What has he ever done for them?
As for your severe treatment I´m sure the experience must feel like being beaten to death with a wet shoelace. Painful, to say the least.....:D

jasonwestmas
03-22-2016, 09:26 AM
I felt lead-on to believe something that wasn't there. That tends to feel scammy. Perception rules regardless of intent.

raymondtrace
03-22-2016, 10:43 AM
"pmG" was never communicative and never promoted a release schedule. What happened in the past few years isn't really extraordinary. There was never a lack of evidence to show that pmG was just a single developer and that the program development was floundering.

If anyone wants to call it a scam, take legal action. I suspect that those of us pushing back on the term are simply doing so to tame whining.

It seems apparent most of us knew the subscription offer was a gamble that could be lost.


...I think its worth the chance. ... Id pay $40 for a ticket to see such a show.

calilifestyle
03-22-2016, 10:50 AM
"pmG" was never communicative and never promoted a release schedule. What happened in the past few years isn't really extraordinary. There was never a lack of evidence to show that pmG was just a single developer and that the program development was floundering.

If anyone wants to call it a scam, take legal action. I suspect that those of us pushing back on the term are simply doing so to tame whining.

It seems apparent most of us knew the subscription offer was a gamble that could be lost.

Not true , this is one of the emails i received in 2014. This email clearly says to expect something with in a year. Now ask anyone that subscribed what they got in that year.


Dear messiahStudio6 Pro User:

pmG announces messiahStudio Subscription, with the best way to save on future upgrades in the industry.

See how switching your license to subscription can not only save you money, but give you access to updates
and perks before anyone else.

While most companies are offering subscriptions at high monthly prices, we decided to up the ante and offer
you a yearly subscription for far less than even some company's monthly. The regular subscription price is only $65,
for the entire year!. (That's only $5.42 a month)

But we're not done; because you're a messiahStudio6 Pro user, we're offering you the early bird chance
to convert your version to subscription right now, for just $40 yearly (that's the equivalent of $3.33 a month)and we've included some extras that make it even better.

Benefits of converting to subscription include:

1. The best cost for value, in the industry
2. Upgrades to a new version normally range from $199 to $249; but your upgrades are already included in your
subscription; so when a new version is released, you don't have to pay anything more for it.
3. You'll have access to new versions before anyone else
4. You'll be able to download updates to current versions, get access to faster fixes, and try betas before
anyone else.
5. You'll have exclusive access to sneak peeks of new technology we're working on, as well as special deals on
reduced prices for other software and hardware.

raymondtrace
03-22-2016, 11:06 AM
Not true

What isn't true? Did you forget to copy the message that claims "to expect something with in a year"? I don't see any timeline promised.

hrgiger
03-22-2016, 12:41 PM
It seems apparent most of us knew the subscription offer was a gamble that could be lost.

Of course. And I already said earlier in the thread that I'm certainly not upset about the $40. Its the fact that they have given existing buyers no insight into anything that has happened with the software since their 'revolutionary' announcement of a merger and that they presumably are still selling more licenses to new users who may not be aware that they're just really ****** business people. If they ever do something with the software, I'll stick by my decision to invest $40. In the meantime, they just continue to look worse and worse.

raymondtrace
03-22-2016, 01:31 PM
pmG has never given insight. Why expect it now?

I'm beginning to understand the confusion that has generated angst. Some of us need to adjust our perspective to see what's really going on.

First of all, there does not appear to be any promised date for a new release. Not even a development behemoth like Adobe does that.

Secondly, some of us are missing the value being offered...

Anyone can go to http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/shop.html right now to choose between the $65 annual subscription or the $399 single price. The email message posted in this discussion thread says you can cancel the subscription at any time and retain your license. There's no reason to believe the subscription is licensed any differently than the single $399 license. Messiah appears to have only one crude licensing mechanism (keyed to the drive's unique volume serial ID).

So you have the option of paying $65 or $399 to get the EXACT SAME THING. Buying the subscription is clearly a good deal for new users. You have the option to opt out of further subscription payments and have Messiah 6 for ~15% of the $399 price.

Now look 6 years into the future. Even if you have paid the yearly $65 fee and have nothing more than Messiah 6, you still come out paying less than the guy that bought Messiah 6 for $399.

So if anyone wants to be justifiably angry about a lack of subscription updates to Messiah, come back to this topic in 2020.

TheLexx
03-22-2016, 04:17 PM
I emailed some weeks ago to see if Messiah was still available, and heard nothing, then magically a few days ago I got a response confirming that it was still available. For those who use Messiah, how does it now look in the current landscape of options for character animation ? I am tempted to either get Messiah, or just forget it and buy Rhiggit+tutorials, combined with the Ryan Roye animation videos of IK Booster etc. Can anyone offer any further insight ? Thanks

spherical
03-22-2016, 04:19 PM
So if anyone wants to be justifiably angry about a lack of subscription updates to Messiah, come back to this topic in 2020.

Finally, someone with their head on straight. :)

bobakabob
03-22-2016, 04:52 PM
I emailed some weeks ago to see if Messiah was still available, and heard nothing, then magically a few days ago I got a response confirming that it was still available. For those who use Messiah, how does it now look in the current landscape of options for character animation ? I am tempted to either get Messiah, or just forget it and buy Rhiggit+tutorials, combined with the Ryan Roye animation videos of IK Booster etc. Can anyone offer any further insight ? Thanks

I'd recommend RHiggit highly. A pleasure to use and the closest you can get to Maya style animation tools in LW.
I bought into Messiah at the $40 deal. It was great software, famed for its responsiveness and "intuitive" bones but these days it makes more sense to work directly in LW with RH plugins. Not forgetting LW's native Genoma which can produce robust rigs very quickly.

jeric_synergy
03-22-2016, 06:51 PM
I emailed some weeks ago to see if Messiah was still available, and heard nothing, then magically a few days ago I got a response confirming that it was still available. For those who use Messiah, how does it now look in the current landscape of options for character animation ? I am tempted to either get Messiah, or just forget it and buy Rhiggit+tutorials, combined with the Ryan Roye animation videos of IK Booster etc. Can anyone offer any further insight ? Thanks
Don't waste your money: it's a horrible dead end. Invest in Rebel Hill's tools instead. Additionally, take a look at Ryan Roye's tools on Liberty3d.com .

RebelHill
03-22-2016, 07:05 PM
It is not semantics. It is the law (in that sentence you quoted) which is necessarily specific. If you are going to sling accusations which imply wrong doing that is also backed by law, sorry, I disagree. You should deal in specific wording.


I'm not even talking legality here... Whether or not they intended to scam people, that is how it comes across.

How about we use "swindle"... which is a legally permissible word meaning to cheat or defraud, but without requiring an initial intent to do so (honestly intending to supply X, realising you cant, and keeping the money is still a swindle).

Surrealist.
03-23-2016, 12:21 PM
Swindle (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/swindle) is merely a synonym for fraud.


Full Definition of swindle

swin·dledswin·dling play \ˈswin(d)-liŋ, ˈswin-dəl-iŋ\

intransitive verb

: to obtain money or property by fraud or deceit
transitive verb

: to take money or property from by fraud or deceit

swin·dler play \ˈswin(d)-lər, ˈswin-dəl-ər\ noun


Synonym Discussion of swindle
cheat, cozen, defraud, swindle mean to get something by dishonesty or deception. cheat suggests using trickery that escapes observation <cheated me out of a dollar>. cozen implies artful persuading or flattering to attain a thing or a purpose <always able to cozen her grandfather out of a few dollars>. defraud stresses depriving one of his or her rights and usually connotes deliberate perversion of the truth <defrauded of her inheritance by an unscrupulous lawyer>. swindle implies large-scale cheating by misrepresentation or abuse of confidence <swindled of their savings by con artists>.

raymondtrace
03-23-2016, 12:29 PM
I emailed some weeks ago to see if Messiah was still available, and heard nothing, then magically a few days ago I got a response confirming that it was still available. For those who use Messiah, how does it now look in the current landscape of options for character animation ?...

An important element with any tool is the available training. With the library of video training now missing from setuptab.com, Messiah has become much less ideal. You can search for a few videos under "messiah crash course" on YouTube for a good overview.

The problem is that none of these CA options has any better guarantee of longevity. Who knows what the next LW will do natively and what it might break in all of these plugins for it? That's the one nice thing about Messiah: it has been around and can run as a standalone, like my bicycle in the garage.

RebelHill
03-23-2016, 12:30 PM
Yes... my point is that fraud needn't necessarily be pre-planned... you can fraudulently obtain, or fraudulently keep.

raymondtrace
03-23-2016, 12:51 PM
Yes... my point is that fraud needn't necessarily be pre-planned... you can fraudulently obtain, or fraudulently keep.

While everyone is debating definitions of fraud/swindle/etc, I have yet to see anyone define what the "crime" was. There was nothing in the subscription marketing to suggest that there would be an update within a year. Fori could take several years before he issues any update. That is the nature of subscriptions and it is the nature of Messiah. Messiah versions were never rapidly released. It has been in development for nearly 20 years and we're only at version 6.

RebelHill
03-23-2016, 01:00 PM
The nature of subscriptions is that they relate to the use of a product or service for a specified time period... if its a yearly subscription, and a year has gone by with no delivery of any such product or service, then keeping that money would be considered fraudulent in most countries. A forthcoming version was clearly mentioned in the blurb... the reasonable expectation is that it would be delivered in the near future. If you're going to make the argument that the subscription applies to whatever the current version was at the time, then fine... but that leaves folk who had bought licences of the current version who, thinking they were subscribing to the new, have wound up subscribing to something they already owned, which, not being made clear, is misleading marketing practices.

There's no worming out of it... pmg have swindled folk and are guilty of dishonest business practice... whether that fall specifically on the criminal or civil side of the line would be a specific detail for a given states law.

calilifestyle
03-23-2016, 01:18 PM
I really don't think breaking down the email they send out back in 2014 in May is needed. But if you read it over it does say you pay for yearly subscription and in sub you get the following benefits. But whatever if want to defend them, go for it.

hrgiger
03-23-2016, 01:28 PM
While everyone is debating definitions of fraud/swindle/etc, I have yet to see anyone define what the "crime" was.

Well, I'm not sure who used the word crime, I'm not even trying to debate on that point. First they run a campaign to sell Messiah Studio for $40. That's all fine and good, no problem with that. They wanted to see if they could reach a certain number of buyers, whatever. But I have a problem with the next one one where I received this email:

Big changes are about to happen for messiahStudio and you. We have been working on a deal with a company
that could change the industry, and give you an advantage as a messiahStudio user. We will be able
to add more resources, improve the software, and give you a greater user experience; as well as support
your projects in interesting ways. This will also mean the future cost of the product and upgrades, may not
be solely under our control. You are being offered one chance to save on both current and future versions, before
this happens.
If you want to lock in your ability to take advantage of the current price savings, these are your last
opportunities to do so. Don't say we didn't warn you :)

MESSIAHSTUDIO 5 USERS:
Upgrade to version 6, so you are not priced out of the future:
$20 http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/shop_upgradeBF6.html
Anyone who is not on version 6 by the time this takes places, will not be able to upgrade, and will have
to pay the new prices, as if you were a new user. There will be nothing we can do to help you after that point.

Almost 2 years later, you can still pick up Messiah up Messiah for cheap, They've not improved the software and there has been no more words about this 'mystery' deal where they wanted to make sure users jumped on board before this new company jacked the prices up. They certainly gave the impression that big changes were about to happen for Messiah and that this new company would most certainly raise the prices. In other words, they tried to entice people into buying Messiah without any actual information and after all this time, there hasn't been another word from them. Bad business decisions or just blatnatly negligent?

gjjackson
03-23-2016, 01:54 PM
There's always this: http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/videos.html
The setuptab site is cached at archive.org.

raymondtrace
03-23-2016, 03:08 PM
gjjackson, setuptab used a registration system (free and paid) to disperse video content. Archive.org could not store that because it was not in the public view.

calilifestyle, I am not defending pmG. I've got no problem sharing the info on page 1 about hacking their licensing. There's no debate that their communication and marketing is lame. You may be confusing me for simply defending literacy.

hrgiger, that message clearly states "they" were working on a deal. It does not claim a deal has been made. The message was speculative. If pmG retained a team of lawyers like Adobe, they would probably be forced to include the phrase "this is all speculative" but common sense seems sufficient.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the expectation of updates on a given schedule in a subscription. pmG never presented a schedule for updates. I cannot even recall a scheduled upgrade promotion prior to the subscription offer. Version 6 was teased without a release date: https://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=4&t=71599

How are those "regularly scheduled updates" for Fireworks doing for Adobe CC subscribers? Adobe is still selling it and offering it as part of CC. https://blogs.adobe.com/fireworks/2013/05/the-future-of-adobe-fireworks.html

Surrealist.
03-23-2016, 09:14 PM
Yes... my point is that fraud needn't necessarily be pre-planned... you can fraudulently obtain, or fraudulently keep.

By definition fraud or any of its synonyms or slang, is intentional. You can not unintentionally commit fraud.

And to the point here without it getting watered down and lost in all of the debate, is that people have been angry and slinging the accusation that PMG intentionally committed fraud. And there were people who said pretty much exactly that. Which is way over the top and can not even been proven. Not without investigation.

When challenged with this, some have backed off from that and said, well it does not have to be intentional or, well I still feel ripped off, or I was not really talking legal etc etc.

There is absolutely no basis for any claim of fraud here. And people have done exactly that.

And continue to here:


The nature of subscriptions is that they relate to the use of a product or service for a specified time period... if its a yearly subscription, and a year has gone by with no delivery of any such product or service, then keeping that money would be considered fraudulent in most countries. A forthcoming version was clearly mentioned in the blurb... the reasonable expectation is that it would be delivered in the near future. If you're going to make the argument that the subscription applies to whatever the current version was at the time, then fine... but that leaves folk who had bought licences of the current version who, thinking they were subscribing to the new, have wound up subscribing to something they already owned, which, not being made clear, is misleading marketing practices.

There's no worming out of it... pmg have swindled folk and are guilty of dishonest business practice... whether that fall specifically on the criminal or civil side of the line would be a specific detail for a given states law.

Now with a refresher in place.

No. This is not fraud and there is not country where this would be fraud. And fraud in the US, if carried out across state lines or in the mail is a federal offense.

It is however illegal not to deliver. But it is not fraud. And it is not something that you go to jail for or get fines. And it is not criminal law. It is civil law.

And so if you want to look up the laws that apply here they come under those to do with consumer protection and is the reason banks have policies to contest charges to credit cards.

And since people are buying a product with some kind of bank card or paypal (which is tied into a bank account), those are the easiest ways to fight back.


Well, I'm not sure who used the word crime, I'm not even trying to debate on that point. ....... Bad business decisions or just blatnatly negligent?

It is criminal not to deliver a service. Of course it is. But it is not fraud. That is a way over the top heavy handed and emotionally charged accusation that does not apply here at all.

It is a severe action to take to get your money back. As I said before.

That basically says, you have ripped me off by not delivering, so you owe me that back.

And that is one of the basic definitions of criminal. To take something and not give something in return.

And it does not have to be intentional to be a crime. That goes across many areas of crimes. From accidents to deaths and finances.

But it does have to be intentional to be fraud. As one of the very basic requirements.

Surrealist.
03-23-2016, 09:33 PM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the expectation of updates on a given schedule in a subscription. pmG never presented a schedule for updates. I cannot even recall a scheduled upgrade promotion prior to the subscription offer. Version 6 was teased without a release date: https://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=4&t=71599


By the way this is getting to the heart of the matter. If you feel you are not getting what you think was promised it is grounds enough to file a claim. I would say that if in one or two years I got no updates... I'd be unhappy to say the least.

From there it is a matter of whether you will enter into a fight with the vendor over what the fine print of the contract states. If they don't contest it, you win. Plain and simple. End of story.

And if you feel that PMG should "pay for what they did" This is about as extreme as you can get.

Beyond that it would take some kind of class action suit. And I really don't think that would be cost effective in this case.

As to following up with fraud, well that would take some investigation. And it would start with certain tell tale signs that there was fraud. And those in the business of investigating that kind of thing would know. I would guess. No. That since something like this already is covered under consumer protection laws, and that there is little or no indication it was intentional, it would not even be taken further.

jwiede
03-23-2016, 09:36 PM
While everyone is debating definitions of fraud/swindle/etc, I have yet to see anyone define what the "crime" was. There was nothing in the subscription marketing to suggest that there would be an update within a year. Fori could take several years before he issues any update. That is the nature of subscriptions and it is the nature of Messiah. Messiah versions were never rapidly released. It has been in development for nearly 20 years and we're only at version 6.

Advertising and taking pre-orders and pre-payments for Mac version of Messiah Studio 6 then never delivering said software, nor providing refunds, to give one example.

Also, Surrealist, violation of criminal law is a criminal act, and the vast majority of (applicable in these matters) states' and Federal consumer protection are _criminal_ statutes, enforced by criminal law enforcement entities (such as FBI and FTC). In particular, you might want to look on the FTC site about what constitutes criminal false advertising (pay specific attention to the bits about failure to deliver), which criminal statutes cover such violations, and what penalties are typically associated with the prosecution of such violations.

That there are folks here willfully diminishing and denigrating the real harm to pMG's victims, in order to defend pMG's actions, is morally abhorrent and despicable.

RebelHill
03-23-2016, 10:44 PM
You can not unintentionally commit fraud.

Ok, since you wish to be specific... prior intent (meaning prior to obtaining the gain from the other party). I might fully intend to supply you a product or service, you pay in advance, after the fact, I either choose not to bother, or find myself unable, and just keep your money anyway.


No. This is not fraud and there is not country where this would be fraud.

Well, I cant speak to US law... but it sure is in UK law... if you care to read the fraud act... http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/fraud_act/ with particular note paid to the inclusion of making false representations, or statements which are untrue or misleading (see what I say about the reasonable expectation of when a yearly subscribed service would be delivered)... and ofc, the note on what constitues dishonesty on the part of the defrauder... specifically... "was what was done dishonest by the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people?... must the defendant have realised that what he/she was doing was, by those standards, dishonest?"

Would (under these terms) the actions of pmg constitute a fraud in full legal terms... that would be for a jury of ordinary folk to decide given the actions, and the definitions in law... but for what its worth, in my judgement... yes.

And before you note that pmg's not uk based... well, on these more "common" types of wrong doing, our laws arent that far apart in most instances... Id be very surprised if, give the specific detail of US (or canadian, or australian, etc) law, it were the case that there was no argument or interpretation by which a person might consider such actions to be describable as a fraud. It might be "grey" I'll grant you... but I very much doubt its the flat out, "no", you maintain.

lightscape
03-23-2016, 10:54 PM
Messiah apologists....?

Enway, I hope nobody got scammed with the subscription model.

Surrealist you complain A LOT on steam forums about the Modo Indie subscription not being up to date/on parity along with the Modo 901 point releases, yet have no problem with what PMG did to its customers?
Being late on point releases is far less evil than taking peoples money and not delivering, hiding, not communicating the status of the product.

Surrealist.
03-24-2016, 02:31 AM
@RH

According to the law you linked.


The Offences

Section 1 creates a general offence of fraud and introduces three ways of committing it set out in Sections 2, 3 and 4.

Fraud by false representation (Section 2);
Fraud by failure to disclose information when there is a legal duty to do so (Section 3); and
Fraud by abuse of position (Section 4).

In each case:

the defendant's conduct must be dishonest;
his/her intention must be to make a gain; or cause a loss or the risk of a loss to another.
No gain or loss needs actually to have been made.
The maximum sentence is 10 years' imprisonment.

Fraud by false representation (Section 2)

The defendant:

made a false representation
dishonestly
knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading
with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss.

The offence is entirely focused on the conduct of the defendant.
Fraud by failing to disclose information (Section 3)

The defendant:

failed to disclose information to another person
when he was under a legal duty to disclose that information
dishonestly intending, by that failure, to make a gain or cause a loss.

Like Section 2 (and Section 4) this offence is entirely offender focussed. It is complete as soon as the Defendant fails to disclose information provided he was under a legal duty to do so, and that it was done with the necessary dishonest intent. It differs from the deception offences in that it is immaterial whether or not any one is deceived or any property actually gained or lost.

It says explicitly


In each case:

the defendant's conduct must be dishonest;
his/her intention must be to make a gain; or cause a loss or the risk of a loss to another.
No gain or loss needs actually to have been made.
The maximum sentence is 10 years' imprisonment.



And so according to the laws in your country it is all about deception with intent. No loss need to even occur.

It does not say failing to deliver after a promise. These two are miles apart.

It does not matter if you feel as if you were deceived because services were not delivered. That is a civil offense.

And you will find as I said that these laws are going to be fairly consistent from country in their basic definition.

@lightscape

Yes you're dam right I have complained. And it is/was absurd. And they are listening to us. Gradually they will bring the release date closer and closer. It is something they are working on. And without feeback of what we want from them how are we going to expect to ever get it?

I am glad I voiced my opinion despite all the the people who seemed to have issue with it. But as you can see that did not stop me from reasserting my feedbacl. Looks like eventually that will pay off.

But what does that have to do with this?

Nothing.

Now, here I have never said I was OK with what PMG did.

In fact quite the opposite. I have suggested that people act on their right under consumer protection laws.

Get their money back.

And because of my actions in other threads in the past, people have gotten money back.

While other people were crying fraud and so on which is not something that applies here and leads no where. Offers no solution.

The mac guys are likely in a difficult spot considering the amount of time that may have passed for them.

And that is an issue that only they can take up with their banks or paypal.

But crying fraud is pointless. You can't win that debate.

Consumer protection under consumer laws do apply and you have your recourse addording to your situation.

And that is the end of it. Really.

RebelHill
03-24-2016, 10:02 AM
It does not say failing to deliver after a promise.

And neither does it say that the intent must take place before the transaction, its not as cut and dried as you seem to think it is. I can appreciate that it doesnt constitute a fraud in your opinion, but thats not mine, I believe it could be deemed such.

hrgiger
03-24-2016, 10:07 AM
Well in my case, you guys just seem to be arguing my opinion. I'm not trying to make a case for Fraud, take any particular action, trying to define it in some legal terms... What they did and continue to do is crap and it makes them look like Jerks. Not saying they are jerks, I'm sure they're lovely people, but imo, they look like jerks.

jasonwestmas
03-24-2016, 11:05 AM
Well in my case, you guys just seem to be arguing my opinion. I'm not trying to make a case for Fraud, take any particular action, trying to define it in some legal terms... What they did and continue to do is crap and it makes them look like Jerks. Not saying they are jerks, I'm sure they're lovely people, but imo, they look like jerks.

That would be my take on the whole pmg ordeal as well. +1

TheLexx
04-10-2016, 10:48 AM
FWIW, at this exact moment, the Messiah community site has come back to life. Formatting seems a bit off. Managed to login via Firefox but not Explorer.

chikega
04-10-2016, 11:20 AM
SetupTab.com will also open with Opera and Chrome. It appears the CSS file is not associated with the Index file any longer.

calilifestyle
04-11-2016, 12:15 PM
Setup tab might be back, but it really doesn't matter. It's not like the site has been up and running 100%. The store hasn't worked in 2 years. The videos i bought have not been available for some time.

jwiede
04-12-2016, 12:03 AM
@RH
And so according to the laws in your country it is all about deception with intent. No loss need to even occur.

It does not say failing to deliver after a promise. These two are miles apart.


You should definitely go to the FTC site and read the info on how they define "False Advertising" (a good summary is here (https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/advertising-faqs-guide-small-business)).

You seem to believe it is legitimate for a seller to offer a product solely on the hope they might be able to produce it later, but most US jurisdictions (and others, incl. UK, IIRC) hold the seller to a higher standard in such situations. It gets into what constitutes legitimate "consideration" for a contract, and reasonable valuation therein. If a seller accepts transactions, implying they DO meet that higher standard (when they do not), doing so constitutes false representation (and intent is explicit).

The FTC site should have plenty of content and references explaining seller standards, etc. as well, though obviously from a US legal perspective.