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View Full Version : Yet Another Game Engine (Unity) creates a VR creation mode



Dillon
02-11-2016, 08:08 AM
It's inevitable. Unreal unveiled their VR editor a few days ago. Now Unity has unveiled theirs.

http://vrscout.com/news/unitys-answer-to-unreals-vr-editor-demo/

Creating content in VR is the future. LW3D Group, are you listening?

There are legions of traditional artists out there who refuse to try 3D because of how counter intuitive using a keyboard and mouse are. VR will democratize access to these artists. New market!

spherical
02-11-2016, 04:00 PM
Man, I hate that word...

That which will keep the legions of traditional artists away is the high cost of entry. Didn't stop me, because I'm a multi-disciplinary and into many different fields. Developing technologies interest me more than the run-of-the-mill artist. As an engineer, I will invest more in them than the usual person. Brushes are cheap, so are canvas and illustration board. A big expense decision for me as a traditional artist was whether to buy a Paasche AB turbine airbrush that cost a whopping $245. Went undecided about it for weeks.

Yes, there will be more who have yet to embrace 3D, but it will be a sub-set, just as there are those who are already in 3D and don't find a keyboard and mouse unintuitive in the least. It will be a long time before virtual hands and tools that you can't touch will be embraced by the traditional artist. Not saying that the technology is worthless or shouldn't be developed, but there seems to be more importance placed upon it than reality would warrant.

Dillon
02-11-2016, 04:15 PM
As someone who has been working in art colleges in the Bay Area for a little over 17 years, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of traditional artists and the impact of VR.

VR will enable those technophobic traditional artists to try to engage in the medium. It's far, far more intuitive than trying to do things with a mouse and keyboard. And it won't take a very long time for these tools to mature. The groundwork for VR has been being laid for a solid 3+ years now, and now multiple major corporations are jumping on the bandwagon, developing unique tools. It's happening incredibly fast now.

This "high cost of entry" is current. And as technology goes, prices tumble down, down down. The "high cost of entry" will be negligible in a few years time. Have you been following the news this week? Mobile phones will be perfectly capable of tracking your hands and fingers. You soon won't need a computer at all to view or create VR. Just a modern phone.

You will see ;)

MonroePoteet
02-11-2016, 05:15 PM
According to the Dictionary.com page (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/intuitive), I think the definition of "intuitive" you mean is the 5th definition:


"easy to understand or operate without explicit instruction: an intuitive design; an intuitive interface"

I'd be very interested in seeing an unedited video showing a first take of what you call a "traditional artist" donning the headset, picking up the wands (or using their SmartPhone as input) and "intuitively" creating content without explicit instruction.

The videos you have posted are of experts who took part in the design and development of the tools they're demonstrating, probably practiced their demonstration a number of times before the presentation, and are very familiar with the buttons or other input devices (e.g. thumbwheel?) on the wands and the various iconic representations of the "handles" and "widgets" in the VR interface. The audience in this latter video are people who already understand Unity content development, so the VR step is a fairly minor one and uses a toolset with which they are already somewhat familiar. If it was an "intuitive" interface, Ms. West wouldn't have to explain the "handles" and "widgets" and "menus" that she's using.

Perhaps instead of using the term "intuitive", you should say "with more natural hand and head movements". Even those aren't going to be what are used "naturally" by a "traditional artist" in the real world.

My working definition of "easy to use" is "what you're used to". VR content creation is no more intuitive than entering into any other creative endeavor. It's still learning a new set of complex tools.

Of course, I could be wrong. I've been wrong before, and proud to learn from my mistakes.

mTp

Dillon
02-11-2016, 05:20 PM
The UI tools for developing in VR are nascent and in infancy. Not even approaching v1.0 status for any of these things. I think it's a little premature to look at the current videos and declare their intuitivity dead. UI design has yet to really begin in VR.

Much like the first version of the mouse - one single button. Couldn't do much with it other than move it slowly and click. Then, windows came along. Then double clicking. Right clicking. Control clicking. This is the UI for the mouse.

Same process needs to happen for VR.

MonroePoteet
02-11-2016, 05:27 PM
To repeat:


"I'd be very interested in seeing an unedited video showing a first take of what you call a "traditional artist" donning the headset, picking up the wands (or using their SmartPhone as input) and "intuitively" creating content without explicit instruction."

Whenever it's ready.

mTp

Dillon
02-12-2016, 08:26 AM
Remember when the iPhone was introduced? Did it require a manual to learn how to operate? I thought one of its biggest selling points was it's immediate usability without the need to reference a manual to begin using it.

VR will go through the same thing, because UI design will be created around human senses (sight, sound) and dexterity (motion tracked body and hands/fingers). VR will completely transform how we interact with the computer, and ultimately, with information itself.

As someone who works in the education sector, which will be very severely impacted by the development of a mature VR ecosystem, I am both terrified and incredibly excited.

We're at the very beginning of this ride.


To repeat:


"I'd be very interested in seeing an unedited video showing a first take of what you call a "traditional artist" donning the headset, picking up the wands (or using their SmartPhone as input) and "intuitively" creating content without explicit instruction."

Whenever it's ready.

mTp

mummyman
02-12-2016, 09:24 AM
I'm always intrigued by all the new VR stuff out there. Even though I'd be motion sick. It's neat

ianr
02-12-2016, 09:36 AM
Well Dillon,

I am of a mind that Devs like Chilton @ UberCam

will be 'whittling sticks' as we nattter about VR gui's.

So someone around here is out there absorbing the 'Plugin-ness'

for the LW Community. Maybe THIS time VR will be for all ?

I hope so? (maybe Rob Powers wants to throw a few tools into 2016?)

Kaptive
02-12-2016, 09:56 AM
There was a topic about this maybe a year ago, and I said back then that it'd be a wise choice for LW3DG to introduce some form of VR use into LW... even though it is gimmicky, it'd possibly help shift a few more seats... and would probably be some fun.

However, I am a realist, and the fact remains that wearing VR goggles for anything more than a couple of hours would be very tiring, both on the eyes and the head/neck. Until extremely good ui and controllers are made, it'll be more an exercise in experimentation. But regarding it in LW, it's most useful place would be in layout. To be able to wander through and around your scene in VR would be great. Of course, unless the frame rate is there, then it'd be pointless... and vomit inducing.

Keyboard, mouse and monitor take very little energy and allow very fast working. VR, even under the best conditions would do little to improve workflow. It's best hope is to be able to view your object/enviro in true 3d.. maybe sme basic manipulation. But really there isn't much gain beyond a wow factor and fun. Efficient it isn't, and wont be for quite some time. However, making stuff for VR, via unity or whatever would be fun indeed. I'd love to transfer some environments over to unity and actually walk around them.

jasonwestmas
02-12-2016, 05:54 PM
Of course this is the future but let's look at it in a realistic context. VR isn't a full on development tool for EVERYTHING. VR is a step in between development and previewing the final product experience and not meant to be experienced more than a few hours a day. I wouldn't work 8 hours a day in a mocap suit with VR goggles on. That's ridiculous. But I would record some things and do some blocking out of my ideas with such hardware after the core of the product is more refined using energy conserving hardware.

Kaptive
02-12-2016, 07:32 PM
Of course this is the future but let's look at it in a realistic context. VR isn't a full on development tool for EVERYTHING. VR is a step in between development and previewing the final product experience and not meant to be experienced more than a few hours a day. I wouldn't work 8 hours a day in a mocap suit with VR goggles on. That's ridiculous. But I would record some things and do some blocking out of my ideas with such hardware after the core of the product is more refined using energy conserving hardware.

Hehe, the future will see animators working 12 hour days waving wands around moving frantically about a darkened room. Animators go on to become the most muscle bound workers globally, but coupled with terrible eyesight.

132392

Dillon
02-12-2016, 08:10 PM
The biggest impact VR will have on 3D content generation will be input.

Developers in VR are working voraciously to solve full body tracking, including hands and fingers. There are many solutions already in progress, but none completely there, yet.

Within a year or 2, you will be able to stand in front of your computer, and control your 3D character however you want simply by moving around and gesturing.

That will be the true impact of VR on 3D content generation.



Hehe, the future will see animators working 12 hour days waving wands around moving frantically about a darkened room. Animators go on to become the most muscle bound workers globally, but coupled with terrible eyesight.

132392

lightscape
02-12-2016, 10:00 PM
The biggest impact VR will have on 3D content generation will be input.

Developers in VR are working voraciously to solve full body tracking, including hands and fingers. There are many solutions already in progress, but none completely there, yet.

Within a year or 2, you will be able to stand in front of your computer, and control your 3D character however you want simply by moving around and gesturing.

That will be the true impact of VR on 3D content generation.

Iclone is there. They're already using perception neuron with iclone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OZhCcUn--g

lightscape
02-12-2016, 10:12 PM
Then they have realtime PBR coming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDKyAMk9dsM

Innovative company. :thumbsup:
I would get some licenses for your school. They're big in the education sector. The animation system is very easy to understand.

Kaptive
02-13-2016, 04:16 AM
The biggest impact VR will have on 3D content generation will be input.

Developers in VR are working voraciously to solve full body tracking, including hands and fingers. There are many solutions already in progress, but none completely there, yet.

Within a year or 2, you will be able to stand in front of your computer, and control your 3D character however you want simply by moving around and gesturing.

That will be the true impact of VR on 3D content generation.

You know, you are right, and I completely agree with you. In many regards, that is great news... in others it is bad news. Motion capture has already turned the animator into a mo-cap tweaker (with the mo-cap actor taking all the credit... looking at you Andy Sirkis). I'll be quite sad when it all goes this way, because animation tools might get left by the way side, and all we are left with are mocaps. Perhaps that's a bit extreme, but who knows. I love mocap and what you can do with it, but at the same time I have spent most of my 3d working life character animating. Convienience often wins over hard work.
Convienience can destroy creativity. All aliens and creatures will start to look like people because it is cheaper. I'm obviously making an argument to the extreme, but I'm sure you get what I mean.

Dillon
02-13-2016, 07:43 AM
I feel your pain, Kaptive. Sort of.

I used to teach this stuff full time at the Academy of Art in San Francisco (14 years ago). I gave up on it as a full time career (being an animator) because I knew I didn't have the patience to endure years of the incredibly time consuming work it took to create any animation of good quality.

This, combined with the limitations imposed by working with a keyboard/mouse, is the huge barrier preventing many traditional artists from daring to enter the 3D fray.

I think there will always be left over tools for 3D animators to grab points and edges using keyboard/mouse to refine their animations after they've embodied their character physically. But I think the ability to jump in and out of puppeteering your character while donning a headset, to grabbing an edge or a point to tweak it at certain poses, will also be much easier than having to do it with a keyboard and mouse.

Imagine standing side by side to your character, who is mimicking every move you make. Then you freeze the mirroring/performance so you can reach out and grab something on them to tweak it. It'll be like reaching out to a friend to brush off a leaf that fell on their clothing. Natural.

The gear that is being created for motion cap is nice, but still cumbersome. I think that with technologies like Intel's Realsense, and Leap Motion, that we'll get to a point with computer vision being able to track the human body without having to wear anything (except the head set and hand wands to trigger menus and such).



You know, you are right, and I completely agree with you. In many regards, that is great news... in others it is bad news. Motion capture has already turned the animator into a mo-cap tweaker (with the mo-cap actor taking all the credit... looking at you Andy Sirkis). I'll be quite sad when it all goes this way, because animation tools might get left by the way side, and all we are left with are mocaps. Perhaps that's a bit extreme, but who knows. I love mocap and what you can do with it, but at the same time I have spent most of my 3d working life character animating. Convienience often wins over hard work.
Convienience can destroy creativity. All aliens and creatures will start to look like people because it is cheaper. I'm obviously making an argument to the extreme, but I'm sure you get what I mean.

Kaptive
02-13-2016, 11:23 AM
Hope you're right. I'm certainly not against it all... we'll have to see how it pans out. We still have quite a way to go before it becomes affordable for small businesses and artists. All in good time I guess.

ConjureBunny
02-14-2016, 01:26 PM
I think augmented reality would be very suited to this kind of thing. The ability to walk around a table and see the layout of level on it would be fantastic.

I might have to prototype something like that just to prove it :D

-Chilton

Zerowaitstate
02-15-2016, 05:53 AM
It's inevitable. Unreal unveiled their VR editor a few days ago. Now Unity has unveiled theirs.

http://vrscout.com/news/unitys-answer-to-unreals-vr-editor-demo/

Creating content in VR is the future. LW3D Group, are you listening?

There are legions of traditional artists out there who refuse to try 3D because of how counter intuitive using a keyboard and mouse are. VR will democratize access to these artists. New market!

totally seeing this stuff as the future. not having it integrated is a guaranteed path to obsolescence.

i see the mocap/motion sensors as an aid, allowing puppeteer like control of objects characters.

If you are able to scrub through a track and pick one particular element to tweek each time i think it will be a time saver and in no way limit the skill of the animator

put a traditional artist in tilt brush or medium, i think you will find no manual required just start experimenting and the creative juices will flow

TAG again for the developers attention get these tools into light wave production path

jasonwestmas
02-15-2016, 07:29 AM
Motion capture has already turned the animator into a mo-cap tweaker (with the mo-cap actor taking all the credit... looking at you Andy Sirkis). I'll be quite sad when it all goes this way, because animation tools might get left by the way side,

Not a chance. There are still many, many motions that cannot be motion captured. Even when they can be, they have to be sculpted and molded into place to fit the stylistic appeal just like a lump of polygons need such adjustments that the artist desires. I think of mocap as a form of really good reference and inspiration, it's a real time saver in that regard, nothing more.

Kaptive
02-15-2016, 08:48 AM
Loving the answers and thoughts on this page, I always try to keep an open mind :)

Regarding VR, somehow I have totally missed the entire Ubercam thread up until today! How the hell did that happen??????? Some really cool stuff. Now I've started to wonder if I should make my short scifi film a VR film! :D

souzou
02-15-2016, 09:48 AM
Motion capture has already turned the animator into a mo-cap tweaker (with the mo-cap actor taking all the credit... looking at you Andy Sirkis). I'll be quite sad when it all goes this way, because animation tools might get left by the way side, and all we are left with are mocaps.

Heh whenever I read things like that I always think of this video:
https://vimeo.com/28501846

Makes me laugh every time. :)

There's loads of animation that you can't or wouldn't use mocap for. I mean just thinking about it, even with the progression of technology hand-drawn and stop-motion animation is still done regularly.

Kaptive
02-15-2016, 10:33 AM
Heh whenever I read things like that I always think of this video:
https://vimeo.com/28501846

Makes me laugh every time. :)

There's loads of animation that you can't or wouldn't use mocap for. I mean just thinking about it, even with the progression of technology hand-drawn and stop-motion animation is still done regularly.

LOL! That is funny :D :D :D

I'm not against mocap at all btw, I'm just cautious about progress becoming regression in different ways. It's probably the same thing as when CG started taking over practical effects. But things always change, nothing remains static forever.

jasonwestmas
02-15-2016, 11:57 AM
LOL! That is funny :D :D :D

I'm not against mocap at all btw, I'm just cautious about progress becoming regression in different ways. It's probably the same thing as when CG started taking over practical effects. But things always change, nothing remains static forever.

Nothing remains static? That's not entirely true. The principles of animation remain constant if that's what you mean by "static".

Kaptive
02-15-2016, 02:27 PM
I was more refering to the actual process of getting from A to B. A ball will always bounce, how we make that happen is dependent on the tools of the time. But a hammer will always just be a hammer too. I was merely generalising about times changing, and love it or hate it... you have to move with it or get left behind.

jasonwestmas
02-15-2016, 03:02 PM
I was more refering to the actual process of getting from A to B. A ball will always bounce, how we make that happen is dependent on the tools of the time. But a hammer will always just be a hammer too. I was merely generalising about times changing, and love it or hate it... you have to move with it or get left behind.

ah ok. . it will be interesting to seehow the newer forms of hardware can compare to the older forms. Of course I can't really give a solid opinion on that until I try it for higher detailed work. But I imagine that I will be able to edit things in a general way, possibly more fluently in a few regards. This is based on what I have experienced with VR headsets and games.

Zerowaitstate
02-15-2016, 03:17 PM
thought i might add this https://youtu.be/mzN6omNK8yQ this shows the limitation on "finger painting" in architectural space but also looks forward to the point that better controllers will eventual be in this space. This should be an eye opener to the LWCAD side of NEWTEK.

jasonwestmas
02-16-2016, 07:15 AM
thought i might add this https://youtu.be/mzN6omNK8yQ this shows the limitation on "finger painting" in architectural space but also looks forward to the point that better controllers will eventual be in this space. This should be an eye opener to the LWCAD side of NEWTEK.

sketching in 3D, that's what I have used Zbrush for and I didn't have to walk around my model I let the model walk around me. ;) I'm sure using VR technology for architecture is sound but the approach and application always looks flawed.