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prometheus
01-31-2016, 07:46 AM
empty teaser post, just want to start this one to keep things were they belong rather than polluting someone elses post :D

will try to post some different ways of rock creation techniques, every one is welcome to join in and share.
I might not be able to post for some day or two though.

Michael

OFF
01-31-2016, 08:42 AM
You mean geometry or texture/shader creation?

Kaptive
01-31-2016, 10:38 AM
If our conversations are anything to go by, all aspects will be up for discussion. Will be looking forward to this thread :)

prometheus
01-31-2016, 11:06 AM
You mean geometry or texture/shader creation?

you simply can not put a texture on to nothing, so letīs start with what is needed first before textures..the actual geometry shape:D

textures is one part of it, though it sometimes can be just as easy to find a good texture smack it on with proper scaling, make a normal map of it with online tools or other tools, add that to finer detail.

as mentioned..not sure if I will be showing anything today.

Areyos Alektor
01-31-2016, 02:42 PM
Before talking about geometry, why not start with references ?


http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=nature%20rock&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=nature%20rock&sc=2-11&sp=-1&sk=

erikals
01-31-2016, 03:07 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcKFUUcMqng

prometheus
01-31-2016, 04:17 PM
Before talking about geometry, why not start with references ?


http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=nature%20rock&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=nature%20rock&sc=2-11&sp=-1&sk=

Always a good idea, though there are so many of them :)






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcKFUUcMqng

made a note about the vid..try merge triangles after polyreduction before you metaform, it will yield a completly different and more topoflowing polyflow.

check the layers, just used a standard box..metaformed to reach around 20000 then use size with dp rock texture (texture falloff only available in 2015)..then reduced three times I think, merge triangles, then metaform

though nevermind the actual rock procedural shape, just throwed it in to see the levels.

prometheus
01-31-2016, 04:50 PM
hereīs a quicky, though I should go through this with sound or annotations and do it more carefully and with focus on getting the shape look better as well, but thatīs the basic principles you could start with and mix a lot of procedurals, invert, and rescale with more etc..I think I wrote wrong in the description..I started with the pen tool to draw main shape.

Description...
"just using texture dp rock procedural while scaling the object in modeler, you can also use other tools like magnet to deform by point radial, use weightmaps first to deform only in those areas etc.
some polyreduction, merge triangles and then metaform to get a nicer polyflow."

later I might take a look at starting with fracturing I think :)

ideally we should by a few years(Not), have a sculpt tool inside of lightwave :) and perhaps this drag texture tool as a proper modifier displacement deformer, so one can turn on and off various displacements before deciding on what to use for final shape..something may be cooking in 2016..for layout that is, letīs hope they also build a sculpt brush inside of layout as well then(SOON) :) or we will be better of using blender...for this stuff anyway.
the thing with the texture use in the other tools, it may conflict with your other scale move operations if you are not careful and turn it off after using it..so in my world, I would rather see this as a displacement deformer also acting on normals properly...so a tool like that would let you use that rather than the other native move, scale functions to avoid screwing up their behaviour with itīs texture (falloff) option.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvPh6SdmZT4



Michael

prometheus
01-31-2016, 06:08 PM
fractured pieces with the free crackit plugin can also be used, I wouldnīt recommend using the standard fracture tool, it yields none natural crack patterns, and also some stray points...all that will not work nicely when metaforming.

pick any piece you like that is seperated or go through them all, here I choose two pieces next to eachother, copied in to a new object, run metaform on it, polyreduce etc..then metaform a couple of times again, to get more divisions for additional scaling(drag texture) with rock procedural as texture to add that extra detail, all this while working on the two selected pieces at once...by picking two pieces next to eachother, as end results ..it will look like they once were one piece, but got cracked and eroded, like in real life.

ANIMATED GIF....

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132150&d=1454288752

vector
01-31-2016, 11:23 PM
I don't know what Prometheus eats but I want to try :)

Thank you , very interesting.

erikals
01-31-2016, 11:40 PM
try merge triangles after polyreduction before you metaform, it will yield a completly different and more topoflowing polyflow.
yes, thought the trigons gave an interesting look, for then to add a normal map, but agree, i should be careful using trigons.

that DPont Rock procedural trick is Awesome! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/king.gif
great trick Prometheus  http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

the Fracture trick is cool as well, had a similar idea some time back, maybe it can be taken further.
very good to know about Crackit vs LW-fracture


nice tricks here Prometheus, thank you! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

erikals
02-01-2016, 10:31 AM
if you got PhotoShop CS5, give this free plugin a run... >
http://www.nmaker.com.br/tools.html

http://www.nmaker.com.br/images/displacement.jpg

only got PhotoShop CS3 myself...

prometheus
02-01-2016, 01:33 PM
if you got PhotoShop CS5, give this free plugin a run... >
http://www.nmaker.com.br/tools.html

http://www.nmaker.com.br/images/displacement.jpg

only got PhotoShop CS3 myself...

Nope..only cs3 for me, for that one would have to use this free filter plugin..
https://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-texture-tools-adobe-photoshop

Or thry this online, just drag and drop your image to the placeholder, it works at least, how well it compares to the photoshop filter I do not know...
http://cpetry.github.io/NormalMap-Online/

We will be talking about texturing soon, though I am not an expert on it, uv mapping on rocks nativly ..well, the atlas projection might work, you would get some tiled uvīs but might be a pain to paint in after that template...
or open up the free sculptris and paint directly on the model if you export to obj, you can paint in both texture and bump at once and export, it will be a tile uv map, which will not be easy to paint on afterwards though, so one should get it right
in the 3d painting process I guess, I really liked the painting in sculptris though, you can blend paint with different textures quite easy, though I think it might be a bit unstable going at 2 k textures.
Havenīt gotten around to test painting in blender.

Otherwise..you can get a way with a cubic mapping depending on how your texture looks like, and if you set the scaling properly,
too large scale and the texture would look blurred and lack detail, to small scaling and you will get tile pattern repetition.
Bitmap textures are the best if you can get good ones at high res, depending on scene that is, if you want to zoom in on ants on a small rock, you would probably facing cg look with textures loosing detail at close ups..Unless having a very high res texture.

Procedural textures are hard to get realistic..at least it will taka lot of work to get it realistic, it offers the advantage of high detail no matter how much you zoom in, and less memory..and no direct need of uv mapping.. but it takes longer time to render.

I might be able to cook up some decent procedural textures for rocks..some day, and post to some preset central, not sure whatīs going on with those preset centrals anymore? one got closed, and the other one got a bit to slow to browse through and was more aimed toward octan materials it seems...I can not for the life of me figure out why the lightwave group hasnīt been able to provide and maintain a site of their own for that stuff.
the rock procedurals available today for ligthwave isnīt very good, as well as other nature materials..we are lacking a lot in that preset area.

I will be showcasing some bitmap textures and procedurals tomorrow if time and weather permits.

Michael

rcallicotte
02-01-2016, 01:38 PM
What about CrazyBump for textures?

prometheus
02-01-2016, 01:42 PM
What about CrazyBump for textures?

Good suggestion..havenīt tried it, not sure if thereīs a demo and what the limitations are.
ndo quixel and shadermap pro is probably tools to also look out for, if one is to be serious with texturing things like this, I reckon an investment in some of those tools is a must.

Kaptive
02-01-2016, 02:46 PM
Great link Erikals, I'll be giving those plugins a try for sure. Funny, I thought more folks would be on CSS. The content aware fill aspect of the new photoshop is very useful for creating textures (when it works properly).

Prom, where do we get this crackit plugin from? Did I miss the link somewhere? I'd like to get involved in this thread proper.

Cheers :)

prometheus
02-01-2016, 02:55 PM
Great link Erikals, I'll be giving those plugins a try for sure. Funny, I thought more folks would be on CSS. The content aware fill aspect of the new photoshop is very useful for creating textures (when it works properly).

Prom, where do we get this crackit plugin from? Did I miss the link somewhere? I'd like to get involved in this thread proper.

Cheers :)

Never posted the link, but I understand why you may not find it..if we refere to it as crackit..it may be wrong and the lightwave plugin database doesnīt recognize that search string...it should be crack it with a blank space inbetween...
https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/contains/crack%20it/


Seem to work only with 32 bit lw versions..works in 2015 though, but be careful ..it may be slow sometimes.
If you use it on a box that is metaformed two times for instance, make sure to triple it before using crack it, you can choose to send it to layers upon cracking, or in one layer..if you later want to send to layers, use layers/connected to layers.

prometheus
02-01-2016, 03:08 PM
try run metaform plus on this attached lwo object file two times, after I used crackit on this, I merged triangles before using metaform plus...
test and see how it looks...itīs already cracked for you and merged triangles.
To note..it produces inner section surfaces, so you might want to make it all as one surface for a rock.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132163&d=1454364432

Kaptive
02-01-2016, 05:25 PM
Cheers Prom... guess I better go download LW32bit!

Will give it a try tomorrow evening when I'll have some free time and post some results and thoughts.

erikals
02-01-2016, 05:29 PM
i might give $15 MindTex a try


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGNswWLn0bY

erikals
02-01-2016, 05:34 PM
UV mapping a rock in LightWave using PLG or ABF


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3TNxNAtA0c

erikals
02-01-2016, 05:52 PM
as for Procedural Rock textures, i'd skip it, use real textures instead, much better.
alternatively tiled textures.
also remember that you can blend several images inside LW using alpha maps.

prometheus
02-01-2016, 07:00 PM
as for Procedural Rock textures, i'd skip it, use real textures instead, much better.
alternatively tiled textures.
also remember that you can blend several images inside LW using alpha maps.

Thanks for the Uv tips erikals..will watch more on it later tomorrow.

probably skip procedurals, though you would have to paint or place textures at a low scale and mix with alpha, probably with soft edges to mix nicer if you use multi textures.
I am not that fond of repeating tiling textures..even if they are seamless, it almost always yields a recognizable tile pattern..though you can mix with overlays and alpha perhaps...so that is
why I wouldnīt rule out procedurals entirely.

Hereīs an older clip of painting rock texture with sculptris, itīs nice that you can paint in bump either seperatly or directly with the texture, here I painted in a texture then what you see me doing is painting in bump with a completly different texture...maybe a bit odd, but it may also work...textures comes out fine and imports well to lightwave as tiled uvīs..you just have to export each texture map individually, it doesnīt save per automatic with exported obj.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-QRbc63CAs

erikals
02-02-2016, 01:06 AM
large textures all the way, here 25000px takes only 400MB instead of 1200MB
this is done by using indexed png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFccG3v5ei8


can be mixed with other tricks

erikals
02-02-2016, 03:33 AM
having another go at seamless rock textures,
there are cons / pros to doing it in both 3DCoat / LightWave

using both apps can be good, though i'm no expert on 3DCoat (or alike) maybe it's better to do this in 3DCoat (?)

anyway, if one only want to do this in LightWave, this approach can be used >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7RJi4oeheU


( 3DCoat technique > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUnUDY0hTaQ )

gerry_g
02-02-2016, 05:46 AM
keep it up guys, every post makes it more and more abundantly clear why need a pro level uv unwrapped and a program capable of projection painting, and for the life of me I can't think of single way in which Lightwave would be involved in that process

prometheus
02-02-2016, 07:35 AM
keep it up guys, every post makes it more and more abundantly clear why need a pro level uv unwrapped and a program capable of projection painting, and for the life of me I can't think of single way in which Lightwave would be involved in that process

I too think that is reasonable:thumbsup:

prometheus
02-02-2016, 07:58 AM
surface baking is of course an option to know if one would like to share as an asset with other software, create uv..perhaps atlas or abf unwrap, then add the surface bake in the shader tab in layout open it and set options to bake and file output, close and then render..though it is strange one have to set render threads to 1, it kind of disprupt a fluent workflow..not sure if something can be made to automaticly correct that?

Michael

Ztreem
02-02-2016, 08:09 AM
surface baking is of course an option to know if one would like to share as an asset with other software, create uv..perhaps atlas or abf unwrap, then add the surface bake in the shader tab in layout open it and set options to bake and file output, close and then render..though it is strange one have to set render threads to 1, it kind of disprupt a fluent workflow..not sure if something can be made to automaticly correct that?

Michael

You seem to like to use the old shaders, first the snow shader and now the baking shader. :) Better to use the Surface baking camera. :thumbsup:

prometheus
02-02-2016, 08:21 AM
You seem to like to use the old shaders, first the snow shader and now the baking shader. :) Better to use the Surface baking camera. :thumbsup:

what does my age say? what does my avatar status say?:D

You are right of course.

Ztreem
02-02-2016, 09:16 AM
what does my age say? what does my avatar status say?:D

You are right of course.

Havn't looked at your profile Before, but now when I saw your age I understand. :D I forgive you.

Kaptive
02-02-2016, 10:59 AM
You seem to like to use the old shaders, first the snow shader and now the baking shader. :) Better to use the Surface baking camera. :thumbsup:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SLV2KoXqQZs/VeYHL0gpcpI/AAAAAAAAAIU/zkcOetbhl9Y/s1600-r/artworks-000034151934-36bt6b-original.gif

Tranimatronic
02-02-2016, 11:09 AM
weta have a whole department of people sculpting rocks in zbrush.
It sounds crazy, but once you give it a go it works out pretty nicely. Its good for having rocks and mud in the same foreground element.
there is a video somewhere. I will see if I can find it

edit--- this is a wip. I wanted chewed up mud from vehicles on the ground and regular rock/soil elsewhere. The texture was painted in zbrush. zbrush UV's too.
The grass and textures needed work, but you can see the advantage of sculpting this stuff
132174

prometheus
02-02-2016, 04:00 PM
weta have a whole department of people sculpting rocks in zbrush.
It sounds crazy, but once you give it a go it works out pretty nicely. Its good for having rocks and mud in the same foreground element.
there is a video somewhere. I will see if I can find it

edit--- this is a wip. I wanted chewed up mud from vehicles on the ground and regular rock/soil elsewhere. The texture was painted in zbrush. zbrush UV's too.
The grass and textures needed work, but you can see the advantage of sculpting this stuff



132174

you can do that with blenders very nice sculpting tool as well, or use sculptris...but fine if you got zbrush, and itīs not crazy...it makes perfect sense.
noticed you got some ground resolution issue with a lot of visible triangles it seems?
And now we are entering ground terrain work...might fit in this thread anyway.
Weta...hmm not sure if it was them or some other studio, actually scanned lava rocks from iceland and maybe changed a bit, and used a special script for weathering distribution..so it would get a natural spread of pinnacles over the ground in the prometheus movie.

not sure about approaching it with sculpting though for cround scrape of mud like that as you did, I would probably use normal map for that ground and make sure some instanced gravel followed that raked ground, could use a lot of brushes in photoshop or find a texture to do that normal map.

prometheus
02-02-2016, 04:03 PM
Havn't looked at your profile Before, but now when I saw your age I understand. :D I forgive you.

Yeah..sometimes I feel like Danny Glover in lethal weapon..Imītoo old for this sh...:)

erikals
02-02-2016, 04:25 PM
low poly modeling in LightWave, took too long, might try other Modeler methods


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeyQHj1U51s

Tranimatronic
02-02-2016, 04:33 PM
heres that weta breakdown I mentioned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVs1ClIxgB4

I worked here (but not on this project) - the main rocks were all sculpted in zbrush
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjcvdVb2ZhA

m.d.
02-02-2016, 08:25 PM
Yeah..sometimes I feel like Danny Glover in lethal weapon..Imītoo old for this sh...:)

Nah you're in your prime....

Wisdom of age, and smart enough to know you don't know everything....

coupled with alcohol...this combo could be dangerous

spherical
02-02-2016, 09:22 PM
Nah you're in your prime....

Wisdom of age, and smart enough to know you don't know everything....

coupled with alcohol...this combo could be dangerous

Well, that sure fits me! :D

shenhua
02-03-2016, 03:37 AM
@Tranimatronic

that grass looks great imo.

alexs3d
02-03-2016, 04:08 AM
nice method ;)



low poly modeling in LightWave, took too long, might try other Modeler methods


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeyQHj1U51s

kopperdrake
02-03-2016, 04:31 AM
Nah you're in your prime....

Wisdom of age, and smart enough to know you don't know everything....

coupled with alcohol...this combo could be dangerous

As long as you can stave off the alchohol-induced nap until you've created the next masterpiece :D

prometheus
02-03-2016, 07:00 AM
low poly modeling in LightWave, took too long, might try other Modeler methods



yes...I wonder if you simply could triple it after the initial shape is done, merge triangles and then metaform it..in principle the same route as I did with the fractured pieces..not sure if it will look good on your examples, but if it works it would be way faster then manually connecting.

otherwise it might be faster as you mentioned, scultp in free sculptris or blender, or use zbrush,3d coat, modo, cinema 4d etc...not sure how well lw brush is suited for this, the metamesh would be great to have I reckon to help setting the main shapes for rock parts I think..might get those tools soon, then again blender is really nice nowadays with sculpting.

hereīs some sculpt deformations using an image map on the brush in blender, the image is actually extracted from dp_rock procedural in lightwave, I used hypervoxels sprites with dp rock procedural and rendered out to use as a brush, then in blender I use the brush in anchored mode in the brush stroke options in blender..getting dp rocks deforming the surface.
I could use any image map, or use any of blenders procedurals as a brush to paint in cracks, rocks etc....wish blender had a bit more of fractals to choose from though.
If I have both Lightwave and blender open, I could simply have vpr open...do a tweak with the hypervoxels and any of it fractals ...change them etc, then save out with a button click, switch to blender and load that image as a new brush.
so the sculpt deform shown here in blender is the lightwave procedural dp rock.

It might be possible..I think I tried it..to use the magnet tool with procedurals and this image brush to do the similar in lightwave, but the mesh handling isnīt as good as blenders when sculpting and deforming on high poly.
maybe that is the reason the lw team must ensure the new engine working with higher poly amount before they even start with the brushes and sculpting, hope to see it soon though.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=131886&d=1452785811

Kaptive
02-03-2016, 07:06 AM
Nah you're in your prime....

Wisdom of age, and smart enough to know you don't know everything....

coupled with alcohol...this combo could be dangerous

lol, or smart enough to know that you can no longer remember everything :D

https://creativejamie.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/looks-like-i-picked-the-wrong-week-to-quit-drinking.jpg

Spent all last night sculpting rocks, trying to find the most effective repeatable method and had some fun. Not quite ready to post anything yet.
Found a few interesting ideas along the way though. Will share when I have it down.

prometheus
02-03-2016, 07:07 AM
heres that weta breakdown I mentioned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVs1ClIxgB4

I worked here (but not on this project) - the main rocks were all sculpted in zbrush
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjcvdVb2ZhA

Thanks for the links, funny...I was having a b it of a crush with rivendale some days ago, gathering some concept art to study, mainly I am actually more interested in the actual buildings since I really love that celtic/fairy look of the buildings, ornaments etc, and having the sight of rocks and waterfalls all around you...is of course majestic and brings serenity somehow.

Guess I have to take a look at rise of the lycans a bit closer when it airs next time.


Oh by the way..a bit boring perhaps, I do not drink alcohol (2 times per year maybe, and excluding some zips on a bottle of baileys at night some days when I get a cold)l, I would most likely fall on a rock...not being able to be creative creating a rock.

Kaptive
02-03-2016, 08:17 AM
Thanks for the links, funny...I was having a b it of a crush with rivendale some days ago, gathering some concept art to study, mainly I am actually more interested in the actual buildings since I really love that celtic/fairy look of the buildings, ornaments etc, and having the sight of rocks and waterfalls all around you...is of course majestic and brings serenity somehow.

Guess I have to take a look at rise of the lycans a bit closer when it airs next time.


Oh by the way..a bit boring perhaps, I do not drink alcohol (2 times per year maybe, and excluding some zips on a bottle of baileys at night some days when I get a cold)l, I would most likely fall on a rock...not being able to be creative creating a rock.

I barely drink either these days, I'm a very cheap night out :D

Funny you should say about Rivendale... it was the following video that really got me thinking about rocks and scene forming. This was also a video I was intending to put up on the behind the scenes thread, and part of the reason I started it (as a side study on rocks/digital mattes/etc). Was glad when you put up the Prometheus vid too, as that is another one that goes into it as you mentioned.

Skip to 47 seconds in to see the bit I mean. (Bet you've seen it already :) )


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFzRR5LJgjs&list=PLGaZ44F65uRCqbvqnCyQgXBACivdzA364&index=47

prometheus
02-03-2016, 10:13 AM
yes..weta rocks, interesting.
it would be almost crazy ineffective to try and sculpt these types of cliffs directly as one object, here we can see the build up consisting of smaller rock shard pieces or boulders, and also seemingly dressing up a proxy wall object with those pieces.
how one best would approach it with lightwave is open for discussion, maybe place mesh..or instancing.

I would like to give a tip to use the snap drag tool, (not the drag tool) because it has an option to drag set to connected points, wich means you can simply click and drag any connected segment piece and it will move only that part, which will not require the selection process of select connected parts...so itīs a more fluent way of drag and position segmented parts individually...now this little function of "connected points" should also be in standard move tool I think, might need to put a request for that, you need to make sure to click on a point and drag however..if we could have a tool to drag connected or move connected just by picking itīs segment or polyīs ...that would be better though.
Another option would of course if the lw team implement item select mode, not sure which approach would be the best.

Michael

Ma3rk
02-03-2016, 11:11 AM
Here's something I came across while learning 3D Coat:

3D-Coat Arid Arch Tutorial: Part 1 (Blocking Out the Shape)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlWrITVzLyc&list=PL17Z03Lf1lyLBPyV4ytIct4xdetKToJmB&index=1

erikals
02-03-2016, 12:19 PM
Good link, saved! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlWrITVzLyc


i think i'll go for something similar...
- Modeler Lowres version
- Position it in Layout Camera view
- Bring it into 3DCoat, add detail

prometheus
02-03-2016, 01:12 PM
Here's something I came across while learning 3D Coat:

3D-Coat Arid Arch Tutorial: Part 1 (Blocking Out the Shape)




Good link, and a study of real reference too.

I will have to take a serious look at 3d coat someday, havenīt even tried a demo of it.

those arch rock bridges, probably use some bridging, maybe bezier bridge in lightwave otherwise, then continue sculpting on that in blender or sculptris.

Edited...noticed itīs not that long ago he posted this stuff...hereīs texture baking....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXKloltGdF8



Michael

prometheus
02-03-2016, 02:46 PM
For erikals, I think it should be fine if you simply triple the geometry merge triangles and then metaform, in that last vid you did.
I tried something different, doing the mainshape, copy and use the paste tool to let me scale the copy and move it slightly, then I used boolean union, now ..itīs important to merge points directly after that, so what about using metaform plus on that..well not directly, if you do...the pieces will not look merged together properly, so the answer to that it to triple it before using metaform plus...but doing it the correct way will yield two pieces merged together similar to a metamesh operation, though it would of course be more powerful if one would invest in that maybe :)


Another way to go would be to use metaballs or metaedges, but I wonīt go in to that right now, had my share of going that route before, still think we lack the most obvious part that would make the use of other software not necessary in such extent, mainly better geo handling in modeler and sculpt tools of course, working solely with the new drag tools with texture option or manually editing each little corner instead of sculpting it, it may be a completly waste of time for the task ahead of creating rock assest seriously, itīs a difference though in the sense that one may indeed learn something about other lightwave tools in this process...and new techniques by painstakingly trying to overcome the obstacles for shapes like this.. because of the lack of the scultping tools.

prometheus
02-03-2016, 03:54 PM
hereīs another sample of merging stuff, in principle what erikals could have done instead of manually using connect for quads.

Animated gif of the steps ..the piece was already sliced and beveled out for the lower part.



http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132193&d=1454540057

prometheus
02-03-2016, 06:20 PM
for more advanced booleans, and for those of you (including me) havent invested in metamesh yet..apart from the above simpler shapes, which was from very basic shapes, you could use already metaformed object as well..
But here it is important to triple the geometry before boolean, and I would recommend using speed booleans for faster workflow on the same layer.
here I copied one shape and pasted and scaled up a bit and moved it..then performing these steps to boolean union them, the remeshing to get a good retopo.
1.triple
2.select at leas one connected segment to join, then speed boleean union..no need for copy and paste to background layers.
3.merge points
4.merge triangles
5.metaform plus subdiv level 2
6.remesh with polyreduce plus three times.
7.merge triangles.
8.run a metaform on it for final topo.


Not sure which showcase is best here..animated gif or one wide image of the steps?

132197



http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132196&d=1454548353

erikals
02-04-2016, 03:00 AM
Second go at Mountain modeling


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eqYO7oJ9NI

again, going for >
- Modeler Lowres version
- Position it in Layout Camera view
- Bring it into 3DCoat, add detail

edit: could be interesting to mix this with the Endomorph sculpt trick plus your DP Rock trick Prometheus http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/question.gif

erikals
02-04-2016, 02:15 PM
found this free bump map generator
http://awesomebump.besaba.com/gallery


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfg2WmN6CzE


also adding, Bump to Normal trick by Tobian
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?107144-Blended-maps-to-bump-%28or-normal%29&p=997420&viewfull=1#post997420

Kaptive
02-04-2016, 03:16 PM
Second go at Mountain modeling

again, going for >
- Modeler Lowres version
- Position it in Layout Camera view
- Bring it into 3DCoat, add detail

edit: could be interesting to mix this with the Endomorph sculpt trick plus your DP Rock trick Prometheus http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/question.gif

That is my general work flow to date when creating rocks, but via sculptris rather than 3d coat. You get much more reliable results (and get the final look you are going for) this way, no doubts.

erikals
02-04-2016, 03:54 PM
yes, getting closer to a "smart" technique now   http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

132211


starting to look somewhat like Ary's landscape, see his work here >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?149554-Crash-landing-all-lightwave!

prometheus
02-05-2016, 05:00 AM
yes, getting closer to a "smart" technique now   http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

132211


starting to look somewhat like Ary's landscape, see his work here >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?149554-Crash-landing-all-lightwave!


Now you are cheating going displacement map in layout:D
not really....that is of course mostly the standard way that ary also likes do go for...and a good blend of both modeler and layout is valid of course..whater rocks.
But I guess you could actually skip model the rough shapes and do it in layout as well first..downside is that you are not designing the shape from your own head..rather using displacement..like dp rock and then freeze it, save transformed..go back to modeler reduce and metform to get a more natural poly flow, then back again to layout for additional displacement or bump/normal detail.

one thing I miss in modeler, except for sculpt tools and faster poly handling, that is the normal displacement or falloff, the texture drag tool isnīt quite the same as adding a normal displacement.

I got some more modeling to showcase later this evening perhaps.

Regarding arys artwork, I think he got a mix of what you have here, but some of the rocks that sort of overhangs, are bigger chunk rocks instanced a bit here and there, one might take a look at instancing before subdividing the instanced object.
I also use the item clone_instance option and move around and place rock pieces individually, heck ..One can even instance very large mountain/terrain parts and it can look quite good.

prometheus
02-05-2016, 07:56 AM
More showcase...


Description...hope you have the patience to watch through it without sound, you may get an idea on what I do...
Lightwave modeler...no sound narration.

Just a showcase of rock modeling techniques directly in modeler. Now we would of course like to have proper sculpting tools, but meanwhile..one may use the texture options that now is available in modeler with lightwave 2015.

First I showcase some different free textures ...just cubic projected, then checking polyflow..then I go back to the base shape and showcase the size and magnet tool with the dpont rock procedural, so when I size or use magnet...it "sculpt" deform based on the rock procedural, magnet tool may be best to use to shear or drag after the initial size procedural distortion..but without any texture.

It is Important to be aware of the proper action center..so here I have it set to AC mouse selection, I also use the point radial mode for falloff in order to right mouse click and set the radius as I want.

lastly... poly reducing and metaforming to make it have a more natural topoflow.
We could really have a very good tool for rocks..if we only had sculpting tools able to handle more than modeler does now...since we could combine it with all the lightwave procedurals.

As it stands now..Lightwave today is not capable to reach that extra advanced level..and one might need to use additional sculpting software..blender, sculptris which is all free..or 3dcoat, zbrush etc..



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYKvGgMiYFY

Tranimatronic
02-05-2016, 11:01 AM
More showcase...

As it stands now..Lightwave today is not capable to reach that extra advanced level..and one might need to use additional sculpting software..blender, sculptris which is all free..or 3dcoat, zbrush etc..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYKvGgMiYFY

I agree current lightwave cannot get to that extra level, but on that note - it is unlikely LW-next will get to the sculpting level of say zBrush.
Id far rather have a bullet-proof (pun intended) instancing/hair system to actually populate these rocks than lose development to a shaky sculpting system. If I need to sculpt, I will do it in zBrush. To me, this is where Modo fell over trying to be all things to all people.
As long as LX-next can handle the output from these sculpting apps (and when I say handle I mean instance/bullet/fracture etc etc) we should be on the right track

prometheus
02-05-2016, 11:24 AM
I agree current lightwave cannot get to that extra level, but on that note - it is unlikely LW-next will get to the sculpting level of say zBrush.
Id far rather have a bullet-proof (pun intended) instancing/hair system to actually populate these rocks than lose development to a shaky sculpting system. If I need to sculpt, I will do it in zBrush. To me, this is where Modo fell over trying to be all things to all people.
As long as LX-next can handle the output from these sculpting apps (and when I say handle I mean instance/bullet/fracture etc etc) we should be on the right track



i disagree..
sculpt modeling is a very crucial part of Any 3d software if itīs suppose to handle things out of the box and without distracting from workflow modeling sessions...you can not work in zbrush on a model the way you do with lightwave..that means one might want to model in lightwave and additionally sculpt ..but maintaining the other tools for editing..if I canīt then I would be loosing out on those tools that arenīt in zbrush. and I would have to start in lightwave send to zbrush..send it back ..all this with all itīs complications of I/O handling ..and while you are doing it..you will loose focus on that area you are abou to edit.

blender has no issues with this...that is how it should work...except one needs to overcome itīs UI workflow.

You would have to use image brushes in zbrush..it doesnīt have these nice procedurals lightwave has that is also tweakable, thus it would be more powerful to use lightwave with these procedurals and then additionally sculpt smooth, or pinch or harden peaks etc..

Lightwave will only be biting itīs own tail full of marks of lack of model capabilities for each lw version it doesnīt get any implement of sculpting tools...itīs completly insane in my opinion not to follow the lead of other software to implement both proper sculpting tools and paint tools..just because zbrush and 3d coat can completment it...itīs just that complementary with additional cost and a disruptive workflow preventing an artist to use a tool to itīs fullest .

shenhua
02-05-2016, 11:38 AM
Modo, C4D, Blender... have sculpting. Lightwave gets no love : < (In fact I wish LW had Modo's/C4Ds/3dCs UV toolset, PLG is getting long in the tooth)

I also agree with Prometheus in that, we shouldn't approach this as "Well, it's hard to get it as good as Zbrush does, so we should not even try". Even some basic sculpting would be welcome in LW.

"To me, this is where Modo fell over trying to be all things to all people." - and yet this is precisely why C4D got popular - because it's an all-in-one solution and many studios choose it for that reason.

Kevbarnes
02-05-2016, 12:20 PM
How about HV rocks

132226 132227

This is the Crackit pieces covered in HVs with the preset Rock_wSnow surface

Could do with better lighting but hold up at different zoom levels as its procedural.

132225

prometheus
02-05-2016, 12:25 PM
Modo, C4D, Blender... have sculpting. Lightwave gets no love : < (In fact I wish LW had Modo's/C4Ds/3dCs UV toolset, PLG is getting long in the tooth)

I also agree with Prometheus in that, we shouldn't approach this as "Well, it's hard to get it as good as Zbrush does, so we should not even try". Even some basic sculpting would be welcome in LW.

"To me, this is where Modo fell over trying to be all things to all people." - and yet this is precisely why C4D got popular - because it's an all-in-one solution and many studios choose it for that reason.

I even start to think that blender might be enough for rock creation work, it has a workflow and stuff in there that even sculptris canīt beat.

And blender is of course free..itīs just a matter of overcoming the UI workflow..
Personally I believe itīs just a matter of time before we see it coming to lightwave..maybe two iterations more or something like that..if itīs by any chance not in the agenda and in the plans...I am convinced they will still have to work on it someday, and as a result if still would be neglecting it, and not reallize the importance in such case..they will loose a lot of customers.

we do have some improvements..itīs not much, and itīs an additional cost..with 3rd powers sculpting tools, would be nice if these texture options work with his sculpt tools..not sure if that works?

To match the blender sculpting..well they need to get the geometry handling better suited for it..so what they are doing now with the new engine..just might pave the way for the sculpting tools...hopefully they can get that switched out in modeler as well...or they would need to get all other modeler tools available in layout.

They got a lot to catch up on still though...weight paint in layout, and with sculpt modeling you can in the same workflow design the rock and do adjusment on the fly on a piece of rock that needs changing an at the same time paint in a weight map for particle fx weightmap emission...but thatīs another story...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__ucH0IBEwU

shenhua
02-05-2016, 12:38 PM
@Prometheus
I used to be very biased against Photoshop - like, way in the days (days of Paint Shop Pro)
So I went to check out GIMP. It was a free open source solution. And I really loved it and worked with it on couple of big hobby projects of mine (mostly theming, icons and skins but also some retouching since I needed illustrations too). It felt awkward at first, but then I just came to love it. In the end I had to drop it because the connectivity with other stuff, plugins and even how it works in Windows - was not out there, and I went to finally try that Photoshop. It felt, again, like teeth pulling to get things done in Photoshop at first, had to go back to GIMP now and then just to avoid head bashing. Eventually... I stuck with Photoshop. And I check GIMP every now and then - and now it feels awkward again. Since it's "so unlike photoshop". I gotta tell you, it's like when I try a different 3D package... and I can't really get used to the camera controls when they're different than in LW, right.

So I feel that one day, I will make a point to spend enough time on Blender and try to get past that phase of getting used to. Because I go around, listen to different voices... and keep getting a bit shocked when I end up hearing that a free solution does this and that and that as well - better than, some even very spendy (Autodesk, talking about you) solutions.

@Kev

Those HV rocks look nice, the curvature I mean. But a bit too glossy for my taste... feels like some rare mineral, maybe if someone is going for that look.

Tbh my exp with rox is mostly taking them over from Vue to LW... lazy mode. And they were never too exciting to look at, so this is a very useful thread for me to see some ideas.

prometheus
02-05-2016, 12:39 PM
How about HV rocks


This is the Crackit pieces covered in HVs with the preset Rock_wSnow surface

Could do with better lighting but hold up at different zoom levels as its procedural.

132225


yes that works too...tried that a couple of times.
would be even cooler if we could simply turn any geoshape to be volumetric surface, then add a procedural texture on it..it may in fact be possible with the new volumetrics arriving..but I am just guessing.
it may also be possible today by using dpont boolean on hypervoxels surface to boolean out the volumetrics..

hereīs some old stuff purely voxels no geo...just nulls blended together...but it would be so much more powerful with a volumetric object item mode and applying the procedurals infinitly like this.http://forums.newtek.com

[IMG]http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119495&d=1390383267

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119494&d=1390382459

Kevbarnes
02-05-2016, 12:45 PM
In the Lower Scene - is the hero rock just one HV?

shenhua
02-05-2016, 12:47 PM
easter egg?

132228

prometheus
02-05-2016, 01:11 PM
In the Lower Scene - is the hero rock just one HV?

Not quite sure..donīt know exactly where the scene are right now...could be one or two nulls...but I donīt think itīs more than that.

erikals
02-06-2016, 02:27 AM
yes, i'm going the Layout route   http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

here's another guy who is goin' the Layout route as well... David Agüero


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hIQemrsANU


HyperVoxels will be Very interesting for mid-sized rocks in LW2016 as they will then receive 'true' GI

prometheus
02-06-2016, 07:20 AM
yes, i'm going the Layout route   http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

[/COLOR]



HyperVoxels will be Very interesting for mid-sized rocks in LW2016 as they will then receive 'true' GI


I am the opposite ..Ivé been messing with displacements a lot in layout...and are now changing perspective to go for more modeled rocks in modeler, partly because the more exact localized control I get with the new texture tools..that let me "place" bomb the displacement in size and place where I want and also with shearing and overhang and with a mix that is easier to to than with layout displacements...
also got individual edge control where one can select patterns and run select path, use point move and edge bevel..that will induce som interesting cavities or cracks if done right.

Some drawbacks of course...you cant go back and alter the shape that easy ...so you need to be pretty sure you are satisfied in certain parts of the process...
but apart from the above advantages...I can retopo and get lower resolutions more suitable for faster rendering and also a better topology flow ..where displacements often get distorted at higher distortion levels.

And of course...my new escapades with blender sculpting, noticed that using the decimate tool with planar option, will sort of flattten out certain areas which seem to be effective and interesting for sharp rocks.

erikals
02-06-2016, 07:36 AM
yes, there are cons / pros

pretty much forced to do it in Layout as i don't have LW2015
for testing, i'm 100% sure i would've used that new Modeler 2015 function

that said, testing a bit more at the moment... http://erikalstad.com/emoti/binocular.gif

prometheus
02-06-2016, 08:49 AM
yes, there are cons / pros

pretty much forced to do it in Layout as i don't have LW2015
for testing, i'm 100% sure i would've used that new Modeler 2015 function

that said, testing a bit more at the moment... http://erikalstad.com/emoti/binocular.gif


Oopsy doopsy...thought you had it.
the texture options to use in 2015 gives a new dimension to the ways you can create terrain and rocks, so itīs good to have that, though I would say itīs a teaser to what could be... if there also would be sculpting at the same level of Blender.
to use it in modeler, I would say it is also important to get an understanding of remeshing and reduce polys, and get better natural topology following poly flow, depending on shot...it will probably help memory and help rendering process if you can avoid freezing at rendertime.

A note..for rock pillars, One can often delete the bottom polys to save polycount...that isnīt visible in the camera, that works in most cases since we wonīt be going below ground mostly...
Then the case of planning a shot...so you may not need anything else on a cliff for instance ..except the polys facing the camera, to one would need to plan out the camera shots precisly for that.

I will try and post more later, maybe on youtube with some clips showcasing more terrain raising directly in modeler, as well as some blender sculpting maybe..if time permits.

Anyway...a proper workflow that probably is most commonly used and quite effective..that is of course what Ary does, and one should not miss out to check his profile coverage and the images presented which showcase a bit of the workflow..itīs a valuable resource, Ary is also using modeler of course..at least for blocking out the mainshape, like a rock bridge or the initial pillar main form, but restricting it to that and let the displacements in layout do the rest of the work and also procedurally changable at any time.

https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/article/artist-spotlight-david-alexander-ary-ag%C3%BCero/



https://www.lightwave3d.com/static/media/uploads/news/artist-spotlight_david-aguero/david_aguero_drakarys-wire_932.jpg

prometheus
02-06-2016, 09:02 AM
This may be of value too, from the spotlight of Ary...( I would recommend use 64 bit only when dealing at this high amount of subdivisions, or it is mostly proned to crash)


"Most of the time, I use Instances on heavily Subdivided Meshes. One drawback I find is the time that it takes to generate the instances on render time. The trick I discover to low the population time is to duplicate the subdivided mesh and use a lower subdivision (like a proxy) and make that object the generator (hidden on render). You can use then the high subd mesh for render (see the picture below)."


https://www.lightwave3d.com/static/media/uploads/news/artist-spotlight_david-aguero/david_aguero_tips_932.jpg


A not about procedurals, you will be limited to what every procedural has to offer, though you can mix enourmously to get your special look, but it is still based on every tweaking rule that procedural has to offer, using modeler letīs you define more of your own design or based on what someone else want you to design.

The first method of procedurals foremost, will offer you a procedural workflow that can be changed later on, and it will often be quite fast to set up, the other method is the other way around in that area, takes longer time to sculpt or model, and can not be changed that easy.

erikals
02-06-2016, 09:11 AM
Nice! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

Good link.
i'll certainly give that a second look. for instances though, i can't help to think how much Advanced Placement from Hurley would help.

continued the earlier procedural tests a bit here, using the "liquify" PhotoShop filter on procedural snapshot

good for an Alien landscape, but all things are not "Alien"

http://erikalstad.com/cgtemp/AlienRock.png

prometheus
02-06-2016, 09:28 AM
Nice! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

Good link.
i'll certainly give that a second look. for instances though, i can't help to think how much Advanced Placement from Hurley would help.

continued the earlier procedural tests a bit here, using the "liquify" PhotoShop filter on procedural snapshot

good for an Alien landscape, but all things are not "Alien"

http://erikalstad.com/cgtemp/AlienRock.png


think I have tried that too but the process is a bit slow and you do not know what you end up with and have to go back and liqufy again, photoshop is a bit slow with that, I think it may work better to use after effects for that, but...
what you also can do..instead of liquify, to get nice undulated distortions, I often use a texture displacement layer directly under the procedural layer it is supposed to effect, use world coordinates, and if you have a really really large terrain in scale..one need to raise the opacity several thousands to make it start take effect, but depending on procedurals ..it may yield very interesting Alien distortion effects, I have some image samples on that, may have to look for them though, this way I can tweak and tweak till I am content in a more fluent way than using liquify..only to find out that I have to redo it etc.

prometheus
02-06-2016, 09:31 AM
on topic of liquify...why not test verve and import a procedural terrain image and distort it more dynamicly with painting in fluid mode...I think I have tested it...
here I tested it on an image I setup in lightwave with volumetric lights in sprite mode which was also was distorted with textured displacement when using volumetric lights in sprite mode and with textures.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrCii5iHp7o

-EsHrA-
02-06-2016, 03:14 PM
there's this too for map creation, insane bump,

https://sites.google.com/site/ccdsurgeon/home

mlon

prometheus
02-06-2016, 03:52 PM
there's this too for map creation, insane bump,

https://sites.google.com/site/ccdsurgeon/home

mlon

Uhhmm...they really need to showcase it a bit more on the site..no images no vids.

did a search on youtube..and found out it is a gimp plugin? donīt have that installed..would have to do that first.

Kevbarnes
02-07-2016, 05:56 PM
Just worked through the tutorial posted by erikals. made by David Agüero - so I don't claim any originality
just Inspired by the Tutorial,

so I made my own rock here - only difference is I added HV smoke to the partical object.

I might take it further to an animation I would like to see this as a VR-immersive experience.

rendered vpr 25mins in LW2015.3 64bit using Global Illumination + 2 lights - although I think this would work with just the 2 lights

I'll do some render tests.


132277

prometheus
02-07-2016, 08:08 PM
Just worked through the tutorial posted by erikals. made by David Agüero - so I don't claim any originality
just Inspired by the Tutorial,

so I made my own rock here - only difference is I added HV smoke to the partical object.

I might take it further to an animation I would like to see this as a VR-immersive experience.



rendered vpr 25mins in LW2015.3 64bit using Global Illumination + 2 lights - although I think this would work with just the 2 lights

I'll do some render tests.


132277

You got it all Wrong, That is not rocks, That is asteroids..you gotta land on earth and take reference on what is there :)

kidding...it looks nice anyway, though were far out in space here.

Ztreem
02-08-2016, 03:31 AM
Depending of what kind of rocks you're doing and how you gonna use them there will be different techniques that will be best suited for the task. I did some underground mines at work and started with only sculpting and that was fun and all, but when the client wanted to do change the size of the mine tunnel it was not that fun. So I started to use procedurals instead and now I can alter the size and form of the tunnel very easy and just apply my displacement nodes to it.
Here is a render without textures, I did this displacement node setup a couple of years ago and it could benefit from some additional tweeking... this using only native LW nodes and procedurals.

edit: It looks a lot better with textures.

132282

-EsHrA-
02-08-2016, 05:20 AM
prometheus - it was a gimp plugin now its a standalone app.
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?317041-Insane-Bump-2-0-overhauled-Crazy-bump-alternative

mlon

prometheus
02-08-2016, 06:52 AM
Depending of what kind of rocks you're doing and how you gonna use them there will be different techniques that will be best suited for the task. I did some underground mines at work and started with only sculpting and that was fun and all, but when the client wanted to do change the size of the mine tunnel it was not that fun. So I started to use procedurals instead and now I can alter the size and form of the tunnel very easy and just apply my displacement nodes to it.
Here is a render without textures, I did this displacement node setup a couple of years ago and it could benefit from some additional tweeking... this using only native LW nodes and procedurals.

edit: It looks a lot better with textures.

132282

I bet it looks much better with textures...but it already looks very nice, guess it is the crackle procedural ..or dp rock, but I would guess the former.

And absolutly ...agree, it all depends on situation, itīs easy when you might sit with your own ideas, or if you may be handed a concept sketch from some art department..saying this is what it should look like, then sculpting or some of my modeling approach might be the way to go, but if you have a client that could be suspected to change opinions on how itīs suppose to look, why not keep it procedural with deformers in layout, so one can go in and change stuff easier.

it misses the dynamite stubs, guess you would have to freeze and split the pieces and fracture it all and press play with bullet :)


prometheus - it was a gimp plugin now its a standalone app.
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?317041-Insane-Bump-2-0-overhauled-Crazy-bump-alternative

mlon

Thanks..may take a closer look at it later.

Ztreem
02-08-2016, 07:16 AM
[QUOTE=prometheus;1465187]I bet it looks much better with textures...but it already looks very nice, guess it is the crackle procedural ..or dp rock, but I would guess the former.

And absolutly ...agree, it all depends on situation, itīs easy when you might sit with your own ideas, or if you may be handed a concept sketch from some art department..saying this is what it should look like, then sculpting or some of my modeling approach might be the way to go, but if you have a client that could be suspected to change opinions on how itīs suppose to look, why not keep it procedural with deformers in layout, so one can go in and change stuff easier.

it misses the dynamite stubs, guess you would have to freeze and split the pieces and fracture it all and press play with bullet :)

QUOTE]

It uses several procedurals but Crackle is the most visual one, love that procedural. It will be fun to use fracture on this one, it freezed at rendertime at 22 mil polys. :)

prometheus
02-08-2016, 09:00 AM
[QUOTE=prometheus;1465187]I bet it looks much better with textures...but it already looks very nice, guess it is the crackle procedural ..or dp rock, but I would guess the former.

And absolutly ...agree, it all depends on situation, itīs easy when you might sit with your own ideas, or if you may be handed a concept sketch from some art department..saying this is what it should look like, then sculpting or some of my modeling approach might be the way to go, but if you have a client that could be suspected to change opinions on how itīs suppose to look, why not keep it procedural with deformers in layout, so one can go in and change stuff easier.

it misses the dynamite stubs, guess you would have to freeze and split the pieces and fracture it all and press play with bullet :)

QUOTE]

It uses several procedurals but Crackle is the most visual one, love that procedural. It will be fun to use fracture on this one, it freezed at rendertime at 22 mil polys. :)


yeah...I tend to try and make rocks as much as low poly I can in modeler for a change, and with the new texture options as a brush sculptor, and then remesh, merge triangles.metaform etc..to get a lower poly base and with a natural polyflow,wich may aalso be feasible to use as cracked pieces or with dynamics.

The crackle is indeed nice, so both dp rock and crackle is some of my favourite procedurals..for rocks anyway, unfortunatly the crackle is only available through nodes, donīt know if someone can extract that to work as a standard layer too, I mean it disprupts a faster workflow, if I were to use the texture options in modeler as Ivé done, I would have to add a procedural node texture layer, open the node editor, search for the crackle procedural, add it, connect it to the output node, then enter the crackle procedural and tweak...it would be so much faster if I simply could add the crackle procedural and on the fly tweak the parameters, one option would be to save out presets..but I donīt think it would work so smoothly when modeling with texture options.

Thereīs some inconsistency with procedurals, the dented procedural do not exist in node editor either, you would have to add a standard layer and pull down procedudral layers within that node, to acess it, then plug that main node in to displacement etc..in layout that is.

Michael

ActionBob
02-09-2016, 06:07 PM
This is my first rock just goofing off with 3d coat and Quixel suite... I used to eat, breath and drink 3d stuff. Now, I find it hard to get motivated to learn things. And at my age, the learning new things is a bit harder then when I started with this stuff so long ago...

But I took a few minutes of goofing off in 3d coat to see if I could export something - even a basic rock-like or slag-like object and throw a couple of simple textures on it in Quixel. There are HUGE masking errors on this as UV's are haphazardly thrown together and seams are obvious. But I smiled as I was able to sculpt it, retopo, uv, export and see what Quixel could do with no id maps or anything. This is encouraging to me, because just goofing off, I was able to produce something. Albeit a piece of petrified poo.... But it makes me think that some actual practice with these other tools might produce something I can get into LW (Octane) and have fun with. :-)

Anyway, here is my petrified poo....

132349

-Adrian

spherical
02-09-2016, 06:42 PM
Looks more like a weather-worn sedimentary or igneous rock to me. Nice micro detail.

ActionBob
02-09-2016, 07:32 PM
Been using lightwave since version 3.5 on the Amiga. Before that, I got my start in Imagine. It has always mostly been a hobby, but I have done some small contract work in the past and made some decent cash. However, I don't have the passion I once had and learning new software to supplement Lightwave has been difficult. Not only in getting enthused about it, but also absorbing information. But I figured that I have owned 3D Coat for some time and I might as well use it. Same with Quixel Suite and the Substance Suite. Their workflows, foreign to my stubborn brain have eluded me for a long time. However, with a little diligence, some decent paid for tutorials (and free stuff too), I am starting to get the gears turning.

I think I am going to tackle a workflow involving 3D Coat - Quixel - Lightwave (Octane) first. Substance suite is going to have to wait. The interface, while photoshop-like in some ways, just throws me for some reason....

With the high resolution scans available for Quixel, the detail is the easy part. Massaging if afterward to get rid of repetition is what takes work. I hope to make something substantial to share in the future...

-Adrian

prometheus
02-10-2016, 12:00 PM
This is my first rock just goofing off with 3d coat and Quixel suite... I used to eat, breath and drink 3d stuff. Now, I find it hard to get motivated to learn things. And at my age, the learning new things is a bit harder then when I started with this stuff so long ago...

But I took a few minutes of goofing off in 3d coat to see if I could export something - even a basic rock-like or slag-like object and throw a couple of simple textures on it in Quixel. There are HUGE masking errors on this as UV's are haphazardly thrown together and seams are obvious. But I smiled as I was able to sculpt it, retopo, uv, export and see what Quixel could do with no id maps or anything. This is encouraging to me, because just goofing off, I was able to produce something. Albeit a piece of petrified poo.... But it makes me think that some actual practice with these other tools might produce something I can get into LW (Octane) and have fun with. :-)

Anyway, here is my petrified poo....

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-Adrian

more like some melted iron piece from some mould factory.

I was supposed to post more showcase ..vid clip and some more descriptions, but havenīt had the time, donīt think I will get the time until this weekend.

erikals
02-10-2016, 12:06 PM
same here, packed schedule these days... love this thread though, many good ideas... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

prometheus
02-10-2016, 12:25 PM
Hereīs some steps, though steps shown in the images are reversed, one way to get fast pillars, maybe a bit too round boulders, will have to take a look at more sharper ones later.
started with a simple grid with a few divisions ..then beveled with - inset and a random shift value, then subdivide facet (not shown) and a metaform level 4 to get enough divisions (not shown) then
using the size tool in modeler with action center set to mouse, and point radial falloff, and using the texture option and dp rock of course, so manually/locally sizing areas where I want to have rock displacement,
then remeshing with poly reduce maybe four times, then merge triangles, then finally retopo and adding divisions with metaform for a nicer polyflow.

Rocks like this will only take one or two minutes to create, might record it later when time permits.
Itīs not a perfect technique, the intersections are two sharp, ideally I think one would like to have cavity insets where the terrace levels meet.



http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132359&d=1455132185

Michael

Kaptive
02-10-2016, 05:40 PM
Hereīs some steps, though steps shown in the images are reversed, one way to get fast pillars, maybe a bit too round boulders, will have to take a look at more sharper ones later.
started with a simple grid with a few divisions ..then beveled with - inset and a random shift value, then subdivide facet (not shown) and a metaform level 4 to get enough divisions (not shown) then
using the size tool in modeler with action center set to mouse, and point radial falloff, and using the texture option and dp rock of course, so manually/locally sizing areas where I want to have rock displacement,
then remeshing with poly reduce maybe four times, then merge triangles, then finally retopo and adding divisions with metaform for a nicer polyflow.

Rocks like this will only take one or two minutes to create, might record it later when time permits.
Itīs not a perfect technique, the intersections are two sharp, ideally I think one would like to have cavity insets where the terrace levels meet.


Ahh, I see what you are doing there. Yeah, that looks like a good fast technique. Your pictures explain it pretty well actually. The thing with rocks is, no 2 are ever the same, and there are more varieties than there are nearly anything else.
It's interesting to explore all types. Because on top of type, shape and material, there is also scale... I mean a mountain is one big rock.

I thought I'd best share some results too! Though the process will probably need a video really. But I don't want to do that until I've done a bit more dev on what really works.
Sculptris is starting to make much more sense the more i use it. Certain tools with particular settings really help.

So here is where I've currently got to...

This is just one rock from 3 angles... Sculpted in Sculptris on top of some very very basic geometry from LW exported as .obj.
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But what has become clear, is that as much as a decent sculpt is important... actually, it is the texturing process that really elevates the final rock. The base texture I just created in photoshop from some cliff image I found on google a while back. This took a bit of time to put together. It's actually tilable but for this rock that is irrelevant, as the UV map was created in sculptris, so it just wraps around.

132362

But the texture on its own still looks a bit poor. But thanks to the paint mode in sculptris (which I am still trying to work out) I could paint the bump map and export it. This step is what really seemed to make the difference... but I am yet to really perfect...

132363

And so the following image is just this one single rock instanced and cloned. I actually added instances of the same rock (much smaller) to a couple of larger clones to give a broken up surface (behind the main rocks). Again, this isn't perfect, but I think it is really starting to look better. I'm hoping that next time I have a go (and I'll record a video about the sculpting process and the stuff I have learned about the tools) it should really start to look much better. But anyway, I'm pretty pleased with the progress so far... heading in the right direction, but still a good way to go. But I think I finally have a good idea about what will and won't work next time I start, which should help a lot.

132364

prometheus
02-10-2016, 06:05 PM
yes..I sculpted in sculptris, to..though one really need to go through rock sculpting tutorials to get the proper shape etc...the texturing and also painting of bump maps is great, and the blending of different textures.
I would probably recommend not starting to sculpt the main shape in sculptris...unless one is very good at it.
I would instead recommend using modeler as I did with texture options like crackle or dp rock, or layout for that matter and normal displace it, then send it to sculptris and then use itīs sculpting tool to flatten, texturing etc.


this guy does incredible rocks....has a lot of tutorials on it, so with such sense for rocks, it make sense to sculpt..though it takes some time..
Arrimus 3d...
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSLLdTBwLMfTKWS56tOiQpw/search?query=rock

Kaptive
02-11-2016, 01:58 AM
I would instead recommend using modeler as I did with texture options like crackle or dp rock, or layout for that matter and normal displace it, then send it to sculptris and then use itīs sculpting tool to flatten, texturing etc.


Yes, good idea! I think I tend to do more in Sculptris when I'm not really sure what it is I want it to look like. It'd maybe be a good idea to pick a rock from an image, or concentrate on recreating the look of some concept art or something... see how close it can be recreated. Under those conditions a strong base mesh would make it all a lot faster!



this guy does incredible rocks....has a lot of tutorials on it, so with such sense for rocks, it make sense to sculpt..though it takes some time..
Arrimus 3d...


We haunt the same places Prom, I've watched a good few of these too!
Righty, off out for the day! Looking forward to seeing your next creations and very much appreciate your insight. Have a fun day! :)

edit: I hadn't noticed the other videos that Arrimus had done... some good ones in there. With an intended end goal of game assets, he'll be keeping the poly count reasonable too. Will watch a few later!

JohnMarchant
02-12-2016, 11:49 AM
Anyone used this, seems pretty good, well for a base rock.
http://www.hptware.co.uk/medusa.php

prometheus
02-12-2016, 12:07 PM
Anyone used this, seems pretty good, well for a base rock.
http://www.hptware.co.uk/medusa.php

no..and honestly, if one simply has a feeling for how rocks look like, one can create better ones within a few minutes...even better looking than the ones shown there, which didnīt look good at all in my opinion...and to pay for it? when It only cost me a few minutes with lightwave or blender.

Michael

JohnMarchant
02-12-2016, 12:51 PM
Agreed they are not perfect. As a base with which to subdivide pull its not to bad, yes to pay for it is a little bit pricey.

kqmen
02-13-2016, 03:26 PM
Hey Promemtheus were in the world is Metaform in my tools? can't find it, I did a serch and it says it is part of legacy plug ins, which I can't find either, so I am stuck, can you give me a hand?

erikals
02-13-2016, 04:07 PM
hi, try Shift+D

you might want to first, triple the object, followed by untriple

tyrot
02-13-2016, 06:08 PM
video tutorial please

prometheus
02-13-2016, 08:06 PM
Canīt recall exactly if and how it was installed with lw 2015, Itīs supposed to be in the support/plugins/legacy folder...but taking a look at my install on my laptop..the legacy folder is zipped, so check for that, the metaform plugin should be there, if you can not find it on your computer..check your account if theres something there.

Now there is two different metaform..

shift d brings up the subdivision tool, wich has facet, smooth and metaform...I think tyrot may be looking for the metaform plus tool that I mostly use, they behave a bit different, partly..if you run subdivide on an ngon shape, it will just pop up an error, while the metaform plus with divide it anyway.

and metaform plus has the option to divide setting a direct specific level of divisions, where you would have to divide several times in the standard subdivide metaform option.
what metaform doesnīt have ..that is facet and smooth, and no option to metaform with a fractal to make it uneven.

a difference if you also just draw a flat quad poly and use metaform plus vs subdiv metaform, subdiv metaform will round the flat quad, while metaform plus will only divide it as facets when itīs flat that is.


those are some differences.

kqmen
02-14-2016, 08:50 AM
I have been trying to use the dp rock texture as you showed, but I am not sure if I installed the right plug in is it dp kit? Rman nodes? Rman collect? when I install those the rock texture does not show as one of my options for procedural type on the Numeric panel for Size, so I think I must be installing the plug in wrong, I have been working in Maya for years and the lightwave plug ins system is a little confusing for me since some will have an interface and some will not, and have no idea how to get them to work.
I did find the Legacy plug ins in the folder you said, thank you very much, if anyone can help me figure out how to get my dp kit or Rman textures working right I would I appreciate it, I guess people is really smart in this forum, I have been lazy working with Maya, I just don't want to have to pay rent to Autodesk, so after many years I have decided to comeback to Lightwave and get Good at it, is just kind of embarrassing to see how most guys here figure out things so quickly (because most of you are generalist as far as I can tell) and I get stuck every couple of steps (because the maya industry really has had me stuck on just one little piece of the puzzle). Thanks again

www.whoisrobinson.com

erikals
02-14-2016, 09:25 AM
when I install those the rock texture does not show

make sure you install the correct one, there is 32bit / 64bit / MacOS versions

prometheus
02-14-2016, 12:13 PM
the rock texture from dpont, and the one I use..it is within Rman collect, itīs not dp kit..and there are two versions..rman collect for nodes and for standard layers..and install the correct one as mentioned by erikals.

the procedurals are then acessed just any other layer in surface editor for instance..or when activating the texture options layers when using size in modeler.

prometheus
02-14-2016, 12:18 PM
weird..thought I posted this yesterday...but I must have missed to accept the post..or did I post it in the wrong thread? hmm..
what to do with rocks :)
going a bit off topic here, might need another thread with bullet dynamics maybe :) these are rock hard for sure..ouch.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdKV_MHnUdY

erikals
02-14-2016, 12:20 PM
you did, but in another thread... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/047.gif

prometheus
02-14-2016, 01:28 PM
you did, but in another thread... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/047.gif

weird, canīt find it...even by search options, can you with your norwegian hawkeye, and being at higher altitude tell me where it was? :D

I will soon bring up the topic of smooth shading at lower levels, to retain sharpness and also the subdividing with facet instead of metaform plus... when it comes to more sharper cliff/rocks.
So both the actual smooth shading and the type of division method is up for discussion later.

Blending of two or more textures and maybe also using it in conjuction with additional procedurals on diffuse or color channels to add variation is another topic I want to discuss soon as well.

the above sample with the bullet dynamics, that rock is one rock piece of 2200 polygons, so releativly low, I reduced it a lot after "sculpting" with the size tool and the texture options, I also used faced divisions to get sharper edges, In this case with sharper rocks, I didnīt merged trigons, which I usually do for rock types that have more rounding to them...in this case I rather kept it as triangled to keep the flatness correct and avoid non planar artifacts, for surface I had it set to smooth level of 20, to ensure sharper edges at some levels.

I used both crackle (through node texture procedural.. a bit of a workaround) and dp rock for sizing sculpting with textures.

erikals
02-14-2016, 02:27 PM
you know, i think i could be wrong, i think i just read the replies in your Youtube video >

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdKV_MHnUdY

prometheus
02-14-2016, 02:35 PM
you know, i think i could be wrong, i think i just read the replies in your Youtube video >

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdKV_MHnUdY


Obiously ..that fall must have affected us both with a bit of a shock :) me..missing to post it properly, and you thinking I did so.

I did parent a body cam to the head bones and using two mulitviewport cams, though the body cam was just a vertigo mess making me sick, so not very useful in this case, but itīs fun to be able to use multicam viewports and get several perspective of things,like this one too...however...now I am spinning off to much from the topics of bullet dynamics and other stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhOTDxoylII

Kaptive
02-14-2016, 05:08 PM
I don't know if he's out there reading this forum, but I just happened upon this video... very similar to Phil Nolans technique/process for rock creation using photos converted into a 3d model. I'm not sure how efficient it is, but I still think this whole process is rather cool.... and the results are guaranteed to be real looking. Thought I'd share. Thanks Rob.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02mJv_wEMQw

prometheus
02-14-2016, 05:39 PM
I don't know if he's out there reading this forum, but I just happened upon this video... very similar to Phil Nolans technique/process for rock creation using photos converted into a 3d model. I'm not sure how efficient it is, but I still think this whole process is rather cool.... and the results are guaranteed to be real looking. Thought I'd share. Thanks Rob.



yeah..though it takes some time to go and do the photoshoot, and I would have to wait till spring, itīs all dark and cloudy over here in stockholm for a while, and rock boulders mostly covered in snow.

Interesting though..will try someday.

Michael

Kaptive
02-14-2016, 05:55 PM
LOL, yes, that's true. I spent a whole evening trying to do a photoshoot of some items in my house with medium success. The correct lighting is essential.
Though, out of interest, in Phils video he mentions that actually, overcast days are the best for taking the photos so that the light is diffused and even (without highlights). So once the snow is gone, your cloudy days might actually help.

I also recieved a camera trolley for Christmas, which might really help.. but yet to try it for anything like this.
132401

Wish we had some snow here in the UK... not a single covering this year :( No snowball fights for me this year!

prometheus
02-14-2016, 10:26 PM
LOL, yes, that's true. I spent a whole evening trying to do a photoshoot of some items in my house with medium success. The correct lighting is essential.
Though, out of interest, in Phils video he mentions that actually, overcast days are the best for taking the photos so that the light is diffused and even (without highlights). So once the snow is gone, your cloudy days might actually help.

I also recieved a camera trolley for Christmas, which might really help.. but yet to try it for anything like this.
132401

Wish we had some snow here in the UK... not a single covering this year :( No snowball fights for me this year!


not so much snow this year...actually very little these two latest years, before that..a Lot of snow, so we couldnīt get home from work...should be the other way around, to much snow to get to work :D

still too much snow on the rock boulders..but it will vanish quickly I think, but the cloudy "overcast" days..well, these type of overcast is essentially blocking almost all lights, so it wonīt be enough even for a good diffuse environment to take the photos in, but itīs a combination of the sun only being up a few hours during the winter and at the same time obscured by clouds so dark and filled with water crystals, that the sun wonīt penetrate at all in the same manners as it would do in overcast settigs at summer or spring.

occasionally we can have nice cold day and nights without those "muddy clouds" but those are mostly rare compared to how many days of muddy clouds we have...so the linked vids are more of rare occasions in stockholm I would say.


https://vimeo.com/153595154

prometheus
02-15-2016, 01:11 AM
Thereīs more intital rock shape creation techniques one can apply, not previously discussed here, and yes..it is the ol metaballs tool, which many of you might think is useless, but for this kind of stuff..it can be handy roughing out the main volume instead of extruding or drawing it..one need to keep in mind to set the level to quite low for it to work best with this type of creation..so maybe between 3-10 in metaball resolution to avoid a mess when freezing it "ctrl-d"

will try and record some of that later.

spherical
02-15-2016, 02:09 AM
Really nice look at your beautiful town, Michael. A friend and colleague of mine works in your planetarium. Haven't seen him in a long time.

prometheus
02-15-2016, 11:44 AM
Really nice look at your beautiful town, Michael. A friend and colleague of mine works in your planetarium. Haven't seen him in a long time.

Aha..that must be cosmonova near the university frescati, itīs a nice place with green parks nearby, and occasionally drunk youngsters during student exams now and then when it turns to a party park during summer.
So what does your friend work with over there?
I have been only once at cosmonovato watch an imax film ...sadly it was not any exciting movie.

Stockholm is nice at summer, and summer nights when the sky is lit up cyan blue and never quite dark, a lot of green parks and archipelagoīs and nice blank waters in between in the city..so it has a special light at evenings.

Itīs funny how the mood is on everyone during winter VS summer, generally we shrink our heads inbetween our shoulders and do not talk if not necessary nor smile that much during winter....but in the summer we really open up much more, itīs not that it is extremly cold..I think it has to do with the missing sunlight.

the sun is up this many hours ..excluding the factor of clouds also obscuring it..which is most of the time..so actual sun hours are even less than presented per month.
november 54 hours.
december 33 hours
januari 40 hours
februari 72 hours
mars 135 hours


I live around 2 miles from the city though, in a suburb 15 minutes by bus to the center of stockholm..the suburb has more forest and is closer to the coast and the baltic sea, the nature is nice..mostly lakes and forest though, not so much of a rocky place.

so other countries..have to go here..
Just went through google earth a bit, and I really like rock formations like the ones in passo gardena in austria..have to go there someday.

http://www.alpentourer.com/alpine_passes/south_tyrol/groedner_joch/groednerjoch_800.jpg

spherical
02-15-2016, 04:34 PM
Aha..that must be cosmonova near the university frescati,

Yep.


So what does your friend work with over there?

He was instrumental in building it.
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/callen.html

He was an intern at Strasenburgh Planetarium when I worked there. Then we worked together on a show at the Smithsonian. Checking his LinkedIn, he left Cosmonova in 2011 and is now Operations Manager at Nordic4DFrame, a company specializing in educational products that inspire creativity and learning, particularly in math and natural sciences.

thekho
02-21-2016, 11:51 AM
I got bored so i've been played with it for fun today. No texture map. All done by using a procedural texture and displacement map. 132525132526

prometheus
02-21-2016, 01:18 PM
I got bored so i've been played with it for fun today. No texture map. All done by using a procedural texture and displacement map. 132525132526

I think you got too low resolution, and the displacement seems not to be based on normals, so you got more displacement going up and down.

prometheus
02-23-2016, 08:19 PM
some nice Rock Photogrammetry, not sure if you can see it without login in to a free account, not my stuff..but nice.

https://sketchfab.com/models/67bb1caf9422480796ed8c40ad0551bd