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prometheus
01-28-2016, 12:05 PM
Have been having just too much of crashing when using lw 2015.3 32 bit, using normal displacement on one object, using dp rock as the displacement fractal, using volumetric lights casting rays through a transparent cloud plane.

Now this happens a lot..if not all the time when clearing the scene and trying to reload it..when I go to reload recent scene, it crashes, any one else with this issue?

must track this down, not only in this case..but also happens alot when tweaking layers and fractals with vpr active...itīs starting to get on my nervs to the point I just want to drop lightwave for a while.
or switch back to lw 11.6.

if no one else has some advice..I will try and reproduce it in various settings..and grab the crash report, but it would be nice if someone can give feedback too.


Michael

Sensei
01-28-2016, 12:57 PM
In the details of crash in Windows there is information which module at which offset crashed.
If it's not memory trashing, usually it's the right place which is guilty.

I am frustrated to hear about "crash happened".. without all the details (f.e. screen-shot of Windows crash report)..

The first thing that you should check is turning off multi-threading mesh evaluation in options.

THIBAULT
01-28-2016, 12:59 PM
It's the same for me. I thought I was the only one but no. Many crash when exiting a project, using F3 in Layout to change the layout of the windows , going to the Modeler Layout forgetting the VPR ... etc . It is also very very slow when closing a visualization project Architecture . I remember passing 3DS MAX to Lightwave last few years to stability problems in Max , but now it's the opposite !

And then I found globally slower than before .
Core I7 5960X, GTX 980X.

I deliberately made ​​a project identically on LW and Max and now the advantage is with Max and Corona previz window.

I've averaged 5-6 crashes a day, not counting the layers disappear , changing coordinates. Instances of objects that change . In short , a lot of problems. For the next version , I will look at the stability of my Pipeline

And for me, i confirm LW 11.6 is better for production.

THIBAULT
01-28-2016, 01:05 PM
In the details of crash in Windows there is information which module at which offset crashed.
If it's not memory trashing, usually it's the right place which is guilty.

I am frustrated to hear about "crash happened".. without all the details (f.e. screen-shot of Windows crash report)..

The first thing that you should check is turning off multi-threading mesh evaluation in options.

Thanks for this info. It's "Threaded Mesh Eval" in Preference/Gen ?

Sensei
01-28-2016, 01:14 PM
Thanks for this info. It's "Threaded Mesh Eval" in Preference/Gen ?

Yes.

If plugin (displacement), or node, is not prepared to be used in multi-threaded environment (because of bug f.e.), or it's too old (because in the past only single thread was evaluating meshes, so developers didn't bother to make multi-thread safe code), there could be problem.

In the case of DP, I would download the latest versions.

And also check older versions of plugins.
Bugs are not only fixed in newer versions, but also new one are introduced.
So downgrading to see when bug appeared the first time, is another option.

Crash while clearing scene, deleting object, deleting "thing", closing app, suggest memory trashing somewhere earlier.
While deleting trash is just "appearing"..

prometheus
01-28-2016, 01:17 PM
In the details of crash in Windows there is information which module at which offset crashed.
If it's not memory trashing, usually it's the right place which is guilty.

I am frustrated to hear about "crash happened".. without all the details (f.e. screen-shot of Windows crash report)..

The first thing that you should check is turning off multi-threading mesh evaluation in options.

you mean actual crash report ....a screen shot of the windows crash report will only tell you that it crashed...nothing more, thatīs as much detail you would get...reckon it depends on what type..but in this case it just pops up several crash window messages after another...telling you it has crashed.

just got one more, tried to render it..and crash, might be something with the multi threading..need to check that, thought I have taken a look at that before..but maybe not.

Thanks for the heads up...by the way...itīs not called multi threaded, its threaded mesh evaluation? and that was off from starters.

THIBAULT
01-28-2016, 01:19 PM
.
suggest memory trashing somewhere earlier...

Any idea whats happen ? I've 64GO de RAM.

Sensei
01-28-2016, 01:31 PM
My crash reports are full of details.. For instance:
https://trac.osgeo.org/gdal/raw-attachment/ticket/4724/CrashDialogs.jpg

There is module (DLL or exe), there is offset from beginning of module, there is crash code such as the most common "illegal memory access", 0xc0000005

If your Windows is new, and configured differently, google for "how to enable windows detail crash" or so.

It showed this:
http://superuser.com/questions/717459/how-to-enable-back-view-pr%D0%BEblem-details-on-crash-for-werfault


reckon it depends on what type..but in this case it just pops up several crash window messages after another...telling you it has crashed.

If there is multiple crash reports one by one, and their quantity is same as what you set in Render Globals > Threads, then each thread working on the same data crashed one by one.
Then set it to 1, and see what happens.
Then start increasing.


Any idea whats happen ? I've 64GO de RAM.

Memory trashing has nothing to do with amount of memory available in machine..

It means overwriting data by accident (bug).
Correct data that used to be (f.e. pointer to some memory location) is gone, and replaced by "trash" (random data).
In the case of pointer, when somebody will try to use pointer, it'll pointing to wrong location, thus crash.

prometheus
01-28-2016, 03:44 PM
same scene in lw 11.6 32 bit does not crash when rendering...threaded mesh evaluation on, 2015 does unfortunatly..will have to go through render and radiosity settings.
apart from this loading after cleared scene...it as mentioned also crashes when rendering..it crashes a lot when tweaking procedurals..so the general impression is that something isnīt quite as it should with lw 2015.

previously there was a lot of crashing when using bullet dynamics..that was fixed..
crashing when using textured fallof in modeler..that was fixed, all those fixes are good..but I am a bit stumbled there are crashes in so many areas....thought it was bug crunched a lot after initial release.but now I am not so sure.

MichaelT
01-28-2016, 03:52 PM
My crash reports are full of details.. For instance:
...

Memory trashing has nothing to do with amount of memory available in machine..

It means overwriting data by accident (bug).
Correct data that used to be (f.e. pointer to some memory location) is gone, and replaced by "trash" (random data).
In the case of pointer, when somebody will try to use pointer, it'll pointing to wrong location, thus crash.

Interesting.. that error is an access error. Common case are (but not limited to): Trying to access (or close) a destroyed object.
Hardware error.. something is actually wrong with your memory card. etc.. things like that.

I would guess on the code trying to access a destroyed object though. You see this error code when the CPU fires an
exception in cases like this.

MichaelT
01-28-2016, 03:57 PM
@prometheus : Probably something really silly.. like a typo at exactly the wrong place in the code, causing lots of errors in various places because that code happens to be used by those items. Just a guess anyway :)

spherical
01-28-2016, 04:59 PM
There's another thread somewhere recently on crashing of 2015.3. In it, I shared that I had the same issues and dropping back to 2015.2 let me continue working, without having to go back to 11.6. I did try 11.6 and no issues, so went progressively forward, just short of the most recent release.

Kaptive
01-29-2016, 01:58 AM
I've had some scary moments where a big scene keeps crashing at/while loading. I've found the simplest solution is to load from scene and bring it all back in to a fresh scene then resave it, usually seems to fix it all somehow.

This may, or may not help... as the initial problem was a bit different. :)

prometheus
01-29-2016, 02:20 AM
I've had some scary moments where a big scene keeps crashing at/while loading. I've found the simplest solution is to load from scene and bring it all back in to a fresh scene then resave it, usually seems to fix it all somehow.

This may, or may not help... as the initial problem was a bit different. :)

yeah..tried that, but crashed..at least directly after clearing the scene then reloading it...it crashed upon loading, but this seem a bit randomly..one could close lightwave and start fresh too, but I think thereīs something more complex and some error in the coding with handling of geometry, so the problem will probably continue to pop up now and then, I do suspect it has to do with freezing of subpached objects..and maybe something to do with normal displacement, so it may be one of those...I will try and render again with lower camera subpath render level, though you cant say ..use 64 bit instead, since the same level worked just fine with 11.63 in 32 bit.

if itīs not that..I reckon it is radiosity perhaps...so a simple test would be to re-render without radiosity perhaps, but I really should take senseis advice and look at the crash dump, it may not be understandable fo me..but that is the data given to analyze.

all that is about this particular scene, then I do get too many crashes when tweaking procedural layers with vpr active, seems ligthwave have trouble with some layers...especially alpha layers.

Michael

MichaelT
01-29-2016, 02:34 AM
I've had crashes too, but so far only in modeler. And then when using knife tool. Haven't seen any other issues.. like vpr etc.. mentioned by Michael. But then again I am using the 64bit version. I'll play around, and see if I can make it crash in interesting ways. Just doesn't happen that often for me.

THIBAULT
01-29-2016, 03:06 AM
I've had crashes too, but so far only in modeler. And then when using knife tool.

Normally this bug was fixed with the 2015.1 release. Change log of 12.22.2014

mav3rick
01-29-2016, 03:19 AM
who uses 32 bit this days :) i mean seriously :) other than that wish you get around with crashing..

prometheus
01-29-2016, 03:25 AM
who uses 32 bit this days :) i mean seriously :) other than that wish you get around with crashing..

why would I use 64 bit for modeling? all the fancy goody stuff with plugins for modeler is mostly still in 32 bit, thus I would be switching between a 32 bit modeler session and syncing with a 64 bit layout version?
Still to much missing for 64 bit..that is why...I would give you this though ...for doing heavy polygon scenes and with displacements etc in layout, 64 is to prefer, but in this case it wasnīt requiring such heavy poly amount, and I was working with 32 bit modeler in conjunction with layout.

There was absolutly nothing wrong with 32 bit in 11.6.3 as I pointed out above...had no crashes with that on the same scene.

MichaelT
01-29-2016, 03:25 AM
@THIBAULT : I have the latest version, and it still crashes when it fails to draw the preview line. I don't know how it used to be.. but it seems to happen in tight places. My guess is that it either generates, or runs into, a corrupt polygon. But like I said, it happens :/

prometheus
01-29-2016, 05:55 AM
getting to my nerves now, worked on a completly different scene, no displacement or heavy poly amount, just some instanced trees and volumetric lights and sunsky..clearing the scenes, and then reload some previous incremental recent scenes..Crash..not sure if dpontīs sunsky is responsible for it, that is a common factor I used in the scenes.

and hereīs print screens sensei asked for...try make any sense of that.:D warning looking at these image files are just useful as the actual crashing is for me:devil:




132102

132103

MichaelT
01-29-2016, 06:21 AM
@Michael: Wow.. you get crashes like that? That I have only seen once. Would it be possible for you to do a step by step that always crashes? Or is it completely random?

prometheus
01-29-2016, 06:49 AM
@Michael: Wow.. you get crashes like that? That I have only seen once. Would it be possible for you to do a step by step that always crashes? Or is it completely random?

just got another one...this is absolutly ridiculous, just throwed in a spitfire model, added a background image in compositing, image processing bloom, then render..and bang...crash again..
I canīt work with lightwave 2015 if this continues, maybe need to reinstall it.
might need to try it on my portable computer too.

Lw 2015 hasnīt been nice on me in 2016, maybe itīs time for 2016 ..with all itīs new stuff to bug crush :)

132105

Chrusion
01-29-2016, 07:19 AM
WOW! That's really ugly!

I've heard reports here about 2015 crashing, so I was apprehensive about starting my biggest project to date. It required loading a dozen, multi-layered objects (most having 30 - 40 layers), a high density terrain mesh with level 6 subpatch (level 1 for display), and the use of DP_SunSky. There are 4.5 million polys in 240 objects, which increases to 6.5 million during render, due to subpatch mesh freezing.

However, Layout has been functioning flawlessly in loading, rendering, and closing scenes... sequentially, one after another in the same LW session... numerous times in a work day. The only crash came during the first test renders of the first of 23 scenes (each one built from the previous scene). Crash log said faulting module was Happy Digital's Edge_FX_x64 surface shader. I scrolled through all surfaces and deleted the handful that had it applied... no more crashing.

The reason I post this is because I'm using SunSky (sky and light) and high-density, displaced meshes (regular procedurals, not nodes with normal maps). So, what I would do, in your case, is to build a new scene, ONE step at a time until you crash, at which point you'll know that the last item/object/effect/plugin you added is the culprit. But before that, I would TRASH ALL config files and rebuild, especially LW_EXT. Of course, I would first save menu and key configs first, so you can load these two back in without having to manually recreate your menu layout and key assignments over again.

THIBAULT
01-29-2016, 07:36 AM
Last scene here with 43.5 M Polygons for 254 objects. Archiviz situation witn many instances and trees. Crash stop now after unselected Threaded Mesh Eval. I use DP Sky too and no problem !
Here my brut render before post-production. 3K in 1H34m ! For the moment, all is good !

132107

MichaelT
01-29-2016, 07:51 AM
just got another one...this is absolutly ridiculous, just throwed in a spitfire model, added a background image in compositing, image processing bloom, then render..and bang...crash again..
I canīt work with lightwave 2015 if this continues, maybe need to reinstall it.
might need to try it on my portable computer too.

Lw 2015 hasnīt been nice on me in 2016, maybe itīs time for 2016 ..with all itīs new stuff to bug crush :)

132105

wow... again.. I don't know what is going on with your installation. But I have never seen anything like that. I don't know if you have some simple setup that you can share? That always fails?

CaptainMarlowe
01-29-2016, 07:58 AM
Did you should trash your configs and see if it's getting better, something may be corrupted in your cfg ?

prometheus
01-29-2016, 08:49 AM
wow... again.. I don't know what is going on with your installation. But I have never seen anything like that. I don't know if you have some simple setup that you can share? That always fails?

And again...:cursin:

itīs all over the place, was just tweaking procedural with vpr active..was trying to swich a turbulence procedural to lyapunov, and above that layer was a gradient set to previous layer..
CRASH!!!

Might need to trash the configs and see, or reinstall.

MichaelT
01-29-2016, 08:59 AM
And again...:cursin:

itīs all over the place, was just tweaking procedural with vpr active..was trying to swich a turbulence procedural to lyapunov, and above that layer was a gradient set to previous layer..
CRASH!!!

Might need to trash the configs and see, or reinstall.

If you do reinstall.. try the same thing without added plugins, and again for every plugin you install. Just in case, if any of those do something in the background.

Marander
01-29-2016, 09:20 AM
No problems with 2015.3 64bit even with heavy scenes until up to 32GB memory usage, tons of polygons, HV, Vue integration, plugins and so on. Also DP Sun works mostly fine. Never used 32bit though.

Sensei
01-29-2016, 09:24 AM
just got another one...this is absolutly ridiculous, just throwed in a spitfire model, added a background image in compositing, image processing bloom, then render..and bang...crash again..
I canīt work with lightwave 2015 if this continues, maybe need to reinstall it.
might need to try it on my portable computer too.

Image processing bloom..

In LW 10.x, there has been made serious incompatibility change to LWSDK in Image Filters,
which affects Bloom, if it has not been updated also.

Basically you cannot use any image filter that works in LW <v10.x, inside of LW >=v10.0

Image filters used to have function defined as:

unsigned int (*flags) (LWInstance);

but in the latest LWs it is:

int * (*flags) (LWInstance);

This issue affected VirtualRender (http://virtualrender.trueart.eu), and I fixed it in 2011.
If Bloom compilation date is earlier than 2011, it has not been updated.

Take your Bloom plugin, add to LW v9.6, and try using it. If it works, it has not been updated to work in newer LWs.

prometheus
01-29-2016, 09:30 AM
Image processing bloom..

In LW 10.x, there has been made serious incompatibility change to LWSDK in Image Filters,
which affects Bloom, if it has not been updated also.

Basically you cannot use any image filter that works in LW <v10.x, inside of LW >=v10.0

Image filters used to have function defined as:

unsigned int (*flags) (LWInstance);

but in the latest LWs it is:

int * (*flags) (LWInstance);

This issue affected VirtualRender (http://virtualrender.trueart.eu), and I fixed it in 2011.
If Bloom compilation date is earlier than 2011, it has not been updated.

Take your Bloom plugin, add to LW v9.6, and try using it. If it works, it has not been updated to work in newer LWs.


huh...will take a look at that later.

a note..I was opening a scene with lw11.6.3 I made and worked with in 2015, volumetric lights and radiosity,..to note is that vpr in 11.6.3 is very very much slower than 2015, it goes really fast in 2015...so I am not fond of having to go back to 11.6.3 either..since it is a bit of a joy working with volumetric lights now in vpr and 2015 ..if it doesnīt crash that is.

Michael

Sensei
01-29-2016, 09:32 AM
and hereīs print screens sensei asked for...try make any sense of that.:D warning looking at these image files are just useful as the actual crashing is for me:devil:


No. It's not the thing I asked.
After I click "No", there is standard Windows crash error.
Then I click "Show Crash Details" (In Polish in my Win version),
and then there are further windows with all the details.

It's ridiculous to show .dmp in text editor...

You need to get proper .dmp reader,
f.e. google for "how to read .dmp file" "dmp reader" "dmp viewer" etc
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315263

Once you open .dmp in reader/viewer,
then you can make screen-shot from it and show developers..
The first thing you should see is where crash happened.
If it happened in plugin directly, without trashing memory, it will be there in bug report.

Sensei
01-29-2016, 09:41 AM
to note is that vpr in 11.6.3 is very very much slower than 2015, it goes really fast in 2015...so I am not fond of having to go back to 11.6.3 either..since it is a bit of a joy working with volumetric lights now in vpr and 2015 ..if it doesnīt crash that is.


Maybe it's faster because of lack of proper synchronization.
VPR has to:
- tell all threads to stop rendering,
- they gracefully stop working (it takes time when they notice request f.e. at the end of rendering line), don't call nodes, plugins etc. no plugin is running.
- the main thread is waiting until all rendering threads confirm stop working.
- then change to scene can be committed.
- then restart of rendering.

If it's not done this way, VPR or any other previewer, will be changing scene where old threads are still running on old data set, that you are in middle of changing, removing, deleting. Leading to illegal memory access (because data are gone, freed memory etc.) And it is inevitable route to crash. Like in early FPrime, in LW <v8.3 (or v8.2). Because developers added special notifications to Layout Master to tell plugins that something has changed in scene in v8.2(3)..

Previewing without proper synchronization is very fast, very interactive, change to f.e. location of item in scene is very smooth. But after adding all synchronization, there is started visible serious delay. And interactivity is screwed up.


VPR at status bar bottom Layout is showing time needed to render frame,
also observe CPU usage while rendering, in Task Manager,
and start changing scene only when it finished rendering preview.
If crashes are caused by lack or buggy synchronization, they should disappear,
but you must be patient, VPR tells user when it finished by showing time spend on rendering/how many rays etc. data in status bar.

prometheus
01-29-2016, 09:46 AM
Maybe it's faster because of lack of proper synchronization.
VPR has to:
- tell all threads to stop rendering,
- they gracefully stop working (it takes time when they notice request f.e. at the end of rendering line), don't call nodes, plugins etc. no plugin is running.
- the main thread is waiting until all rendering threads confirm stop working.
- then change to scene can be committed.
- then restart of rendering.

If it's not done this way, VPR or any other previewer, will be changing scene where old threads are still running on old data set, that you are in middle of changing, removing, deleting. Leading to illegal memory access (because data are gone, freed memory etc.) And it is inevitable route to crash. Like in early FPrime, in LW <v8.3 (or v8.2). Because developers added special notifications to Layout Master to tell plugins that something has changed in scene in v8.2(3)..

Previewing without proper synchronization is very fast, very interactive, change to f.e. location of item in scene is very smooth. But after adding all synchronization, there is started visible serious delay. And interactivity is screwed up.

yes..something like that has occoured to me as something that might be unstable becuase of that, but it doesnīt account for all the other stuff..reloading scene...crash, or start just a final render ..crash, so right now it is quite a soup of mystery to why it crashes on so many situations, think I will install my 64 bit version and check how that runs for a while without to many plugins..and before I dump my 2015 32 bit configs.

Notable it is mostly layout now that I got the crashes, not modeler.

prometheus
01-29-2016, 09:48 AM
No. It's not the thing I asked.
After I click "No", there is standard Windows crash error.
Then I click "Show Crash Details" (In Polish in my Win version),
and then there are further windows with all the details.

It's ridiculous to show .dmp in text editor...

You need to get proper .dmp reader,
f.e. google for "how to read .dmp file" "dmp reader" "dmp viewer" etc
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315263

Once you open .dmp in reader/viewer,
then you can make screen-shot from it and show developers..
The first thing you should see is where crash happened.
If it happened in plugin directly, without trashing memory, it will be there in bug report.

Thanks.

Surrealist.
01-29-2016, 10:24 AM
I did file the whole scene crashing thing as a bug, they finally took it. Not sure what they are doing with it.

But in general I have been finding LW 20115 to be crashy buggy as hell. Can't think of another version I have owned that has been worse. I imagine we'll be seeing more of this as they continue to push the envelope. But man. This is really bad. Starting to remind me of Maya. That's pretty bad. (In so far as random crashes is concerned I mean)

prometheus
01-29-2016, 11:07 AM
I did file the whole scene crashing thing as a bug, they finally took it. Not sure what they are doing with it.

But in general I have been finding LW 20115 to be crashy buggy as hell. Can't think of another version I have owned that has been worse. I imagine we'll be seeing more of this as they continue to push the envelope. But man. This is really bad. Starting to remind me of Maya. That's pretty bad. (In so far as random crashes is concerned I mean)


well..you are the guy from the future working with 20115, so that version is quite unstable:D ....... sorry couldnīt resist.
back to the serious issues, is 2015 buggy in modeler as well for you? I myselft havenīt experienced much of issues in the modeling area.

I need to install the 64 bit version and work with that for a while and see what happens, if it behaves similar etc...if it does and if it does on another machine, I would chime in on
the version to be the most bugged in my memory..but itīs to early to tell until I have tested the 64 bit and on another machine too.
will have to clear config too, as well as read the dump :) with proper tools.

The good side about the crashes, I came to the conclusion, this is enough for today, and off I go to some cleaning and take a walk, that is useful and healthy ...trying to see the good things in the bad things.

calilifestyle
01-29-2016, 11:12 AM
My biggest problem has been Run Time error. Always when i close the app.

Surrealist.
01-29-2016, 11:20 AM
well..you are the guy from the future working with 20115, so that version is quite unstable:D ....... sorry couldnīt resist.
back to the serious issues, is 2015 buggy in modeler as well for you? I myselft havenīt experienced much of issues in the modeling area.

I need to install the 64 bit version and work with that for a while and see what happens, if it behaves similar etc...if it does and if it does on another machine, I would chime in on
the version to be the most bugged in my memory..but itīs to early to tell until I have tested the 64 bit and on another machine too.
will have to clear config too, as well as read the dump :) with proper tools.

The good side about the crashes, I came to the conclusion, this is enough for today, and off I go to some cleaning and take a walk, that is useful and healthy ...trying to see the good things in the bad things.

lol well I guess the future is not so bright after all. It has been crashing on me consistently since the first day I installed it. 64 bit on my machine. It is hard to point to configs when it is crashing immediately. Then of course it could be the voltage surges from my time machine. Is that something they support? :D

ncr100
01-29-2016, 12:36 PM
When one has a "lead" on a crash, do what's possible to narrow it down for the devs. Try to crash on a different machine with the same content. Then if time permits, simplify the content and upload it to https://www.lightwave3d.com/account/report/submit/

I find using Mac OSX to generate crash-reports results in legible stack-traces, showing exactly where the crash occurred ... which module ... giving me hints about which feature is the sensitive one.

It's awesome to have that stack-trace detail, to workaround crashes while the dev fixes the real bug.

prometheus
02-01-2016, 09:41 AM
who uses 32 bit this days :) i mean seriously :) other than that wish you get around with crashing..


so..watch this thread...
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?149589-TF3dm-3d-models-nice-resource-of-many-free-objects-non-commercial-use-share-inputs/page2

in order to use the crack it plugin ...you got to use 32 bit version, doesnīt work in 64 bit, so why use crackit when we got fracture..well, that thread has a topic of creating rock pieces, you can not
get that sort of nice natural fracture with lw standard fracture and metaforming them afterwards to get rock pieces, for that the crack it is the tool to use.

and that is ony one sample of many other plugins not working or 64 bit.