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CharlieL
12-14-2015, 03:57 AM
I recently changed from LW-10.1 to LW-2015 with a standard install.

As I had the Hub inactive in LW10.1 I now was a bit confused when I saved an object and gave it a new name.
It did also change name in Layout. But my purpose was to add a new copy to Layout, so I could have in all
4 objects in Layout.

My object is kind of a sprinkler with six arms rotating and emitting particles, and I donīt want them to be totally
synchronous. So I have to make minor adjustments to the rotation as well as the emitters. Therefore I guess I
canīt instance this object, with the new Instancing feature. Or am I wrong?

I thought the simplest route should be to make 3 copies of the object and make some adjustments to them.
Is there any other way to save objects with a new name and import them into Layout, without disabling the Hub?

pinkmouse
12-14-2015, 04:24 AM
What's wrong with the "Clone" tool? Create your object with all motions and emitters, then use Clone Hierarchy to duplicate as many times as you wish, then tweak the clones individually.

CharlieL
12-14-2015, 05:44 AM
What's wrong with the "Clone" tool?

Good reminder, thanks. But when I cloned I didn't notice a hierarchy option.
So each part had to be parented and renamed again. Therefore I thought
a new copy of the object would be a simpler solution.
I also noticed that the Emitters didnīt allow me to change name. Then
I will be bound to have the exact same behaviour for each Emitter which is
not so fun.
Maybe I shall try cloning again and delete the emitters, then create new ones
for each nozzle. That is about the same labor as importing a copy of the object.

CharlieL
12-14-2015, 06:08 AM
Now, I noticed why I didnīt found the Clone hierarchy. It was only in the main menu, not in the Scene Editor,
where I cloned the objects. And the Scene Editor does not allow renaming of objects or emitters that are cloned.

jeric_synergy
12-14-2015, 10:20 AM
Since the clones are just versions of the same file, (and we don't have aliases), you can't rename them separately (unless you Saved them under diff. names). However, the little "(n)" after the clone sufficiently delineates the clones from each other to allow different motions on each.

It's a g.d. headache to keep track of though.

If confusion is the only issue, you could add an appropriately named Null, turn off all its channels, and parent the various hierarchies to each. Essentially, the Null is now just a 'folder' to help keep track of things in the Scene Editor.

Clones aren't interactive between each other, so while a clone inherits the existing motions of its source when created, after that they are simply completely separate objects.

CharlieL
12-14-2015, 12:04 PM
---If confusion is the only issue, you could add an appropriately named Null, turn off all its channels,
and parent the various hierarchies to each. Essentially, the Null is now just a 'folder' to help keep track of
things in the Scene Editor.

Clones aren't interactive between each other, so while a clone inherits the existing motions of its source
when created, after that they are simply completely separate objects.

Thanks for your comment. That was an interesting thing to apply a Null-object, I haven't thought of that.

When I cloned the hierarchy I also found that the particles didn't follow the move when I placed the cloned
objects at a new spot. But they followed the original particles as a "shadow", so they were doubled up. So
even the objects and the particles are separated after cloning.
That made it clear to me that I have to place the Emitters and do the setup of the particle sequence manually.
Some work can be reused if I save a PFX-file and then edit from that so it will suit every single nozzle.
With 24 nozzles it will take some time. I would have appreciated a more effective shortcut. :-)

pinkmouse
12-14-2015, 12:36 PM
Recalculate your particles.

jeric_synergy
12-14-2015, 12:46 PM
What pinkmouse said: your particles are still using their old values, pre-clone. They need to be re-calc'd for their new origins. That's probably the ONLY thing you need to do.

CharlieL
12-14-2015, 12:57 PM
Yes, I got that. Also forget what I said about loading PFX-files. That doesnīt import any settings to the FX_Emitter interface.

Everything has to be setup manually as there are differencies between all nozzles. :-(

jeric_synergy
12-14-2015, 01:02 PM
What differences?

CharlieL
12-14-2015, 02:34 PM
What differences?

Only 2-3 nozzles at a time are active during the rotation of the 6 hoses that are joint together.
These arms (hoses) are oriented like spokes in a wheel. And it rotates like a wheel. As this is a
part of an automatic fire-engine where the water-spray must have a certain direction. Therefore
the hoses/nozzles are active only during their pass in a sector of about 160 degrees. That will need
a change in the amount of particles and in velocity during (the wheel's) rotation.

With 4 engines and 24 nozzles it makes a lot of manual work. With two rotating clockwise and
the other two counter-clockwise it causes a lot of settings.

Hope I could explain it in a conceivable way.

pinkmouse
12-14-2015, 05:10 PM
If only we had nodal control of particles it would be dead easy!

Sensei
12-14-2015, 06:06 PM
If only we had nodal control of particles it would be dead easy!

Nope.
That's result of duplication of handler.
It duplicates reference to LWItemID exactly the same as had old instance of handler. (And that's how it should be)

But while doing clone it must have new set up of items, the new one which were just created..

Try it with Node Library.
Add Extended Item Info node to some item. Pick up other item in drop-down.
And clone item.
Extended Item Info node is still using picked item...
You have to go to node and pick up other item.
If you have dozen nodes, you have to repeat it dozen times.

jeric_synergy
12-14-2015, 09:26 PM
::forum choke::

jeric_synergy
12-14-2015, 09:32 PM
I'm wondering if it can be done with a clip map. Basically, top view of the fire truck, with white=spray, black=no-spray, and the nozzles doing their thing continuously, but you just don't get to SEE the particles that are in the black. Clip map parented to the truck. So, the spray is moderated by BOTH the nozzle settings and the clip map.

If I understand the problem correctly.

CharlieL
12-14-2015, 10:02 PM
I'm wondering if it can be done with a clip map.

Yes, but it might set some restrictions. As this scene may be used further on, I prefer to make it as "natural" as
possible. As camera-movements are not set yet, I think it is best to continue the setup I am working on.
Two fire-engines are ready now. And the two with clock-wise action still remains.

Sensei
12-14-2015, 10:15 PM
I would try whether Load From Scene.. and pick your objects and their motions, does work..

CharlieL
12-15-2015, 01:42 AM
I would try whether Load From Scene.. and pick your objects and their motions, does work..

Tried that. Result: "A critical error has occurred, create a crash report?"

spherical
12-15-2015, 03:10 AM
::forum choke::

Yep. Avery darn day in the same time frame; give or take 10 minutes, for about fifteen duration. If it's mid evening PST, I now check the clock before even thinking about making an attempt at a post or reply.

MonroePoteet
12-15-2015, 03:13 AM
I don't know if it'll help, but I've attached a quick scene which may be similar to what you want to do. The Emitter's generator has a Gradient in Multiply mode with a Z Distance to Object, where the object is the ProximityNull. The Emitter is parented to the Nozzle, which is parented to a SpokeNull, which is parented to a RotatorNull.

To set up the scene, I finalized the work on one emitter (which would include Hypervoxel rendering, if appropriate, which I didn't include). Then, I used Items => Clone => Clone Hierarchy to clone the SpokeNull hierarchy, and set each subsequent spoke's rotation around the RotatorNull to multiples of 60 degrees, for a total of six spokes. Then, rotate the RotatorNull. As each Emitter gets "close enough" to the ProximityNull, it starts emitting particles, and then fades off as it gets farther away.

I'm able to Load Items from Scene and get the full hierarchy, so hopefully producing the multiple engines and wheel sprayers is just loading the hierarchy from a Base scene multiple times.

Hope it helps!
mTp

MonroePoteet
12-15-2015, 08:11 AM
If the setup posted previous is similar to what is needed, here's another ZIP file with two scenes:

1) Rotating_ProximityEmitterNozzle_Base.lws

Original scene modified as:

- only have one spoke hierarchy for setting up the emitter
- the RotatorNull and ProximityNull are parented to a new HubNull
- the Gradient is Distance to Object, allowing Heading rotation of HubNull
2) Rotating_ProximityEmitterNozzle_6Spokes

the SpokeNull hierarchy cloned 6 times and offset rotation of 60 degrees each

This setup allows the HubNull to be positioned and rotated as needed for multiple occurrences (using Load Items from Scene), and the rest of the hierarchy will work as expected. As with the previous scene, the emitter arc length is controlled by moving the Gradient center line closer or farther from the 0m distance from ProximityNull, which, of course, needs to be set up on the Base scene before cloning the spokes.

mTp

jeric_synergy
12-15-2015, 10:08 AM
Monroe, I ran into problems with morph triggering via Null in nodal once I rotated or translated the Master parent, so check your scene for that.

MonroePoteet
12-15-2015, 11:18 AM
I seem to be able to rotate the HubNull to any orientation and the nozzle Emitter works as I expect. A bug in Morph triggering, maybe.

Thanks,
mTp

CharlieL
12-15-2015, 12:57 PM
If the setup posted previous is similar to what is needed, here's another ZIP file with two scenes:

- - - - -
mTp

Great, I will definitely look into this. I am very busy just now as I am going to deliver my first attempts on this.
I will describe how I did it. Very kind of you to send scenes. Thank you very much. I will look into them with
interest.

Kind Regards
CharlieL

jeric_synergy
12-15-2015, 05:49 PM
I seem to be able to rotate the HubNull to any orientation and the nozzle Emitter works as I expect. A bug in Morph triggering, maybe.
Thanks,
mTp
Good on you for checking. My troubles were confirmed by RH (or I'd just figure it had to be pilot error)-- maybe I should ogle your LWS and see if you're using a different method that might work. My troubles were related to "spaces" (World/local/theOtherOne) issues.

CharlieL
12-16-2015, 04:50 PM
How I multiplied the rotating fire-engine:
First I tried to clone the hierarchy with the still parts as well as the rotating part. That resulted in a clone
without the emitters, which means that the emitters didn't follow the objects when I moved them. Even if
deletion of the PFX-files and a recalculation might solve this, there was no way to rename the emitters.
This option was blocked. With 24 emitters working I don't want to rely on the (n) addition to the name as
things can happen if you delete or change one object in a series. I want to make the scenes working a
long time, and often I make changes to older scenes. My clients appreciate reuse of older stuff ;-)
If I remember it right the objects could not either be renamed after cloning. I wanted individual and safe
names for each part. Therefore I had to rethink my way of doing it.

Cheating the Hub
As the Hub updated existing objects in Layout when I renamed and saved them in Modeler, I thought
maybe I can cheat it. The Hub doesnīt seem to be the smartest guy on the block. If I can cheat it I
must not disable it.
Therefore I took an EARLIER copy of my object in Modeler, which I had in three versions. And the Hub
did not react when I loaded it into Layout. The Hub seems only to be able to count forward, not to
think backwards. So now, I had a fresh copy of my object which I could rename to my heartīs desire.

While the object still is located at the origin I added one Emitter and did all settings to it, so I saw that
they worked well. Even the envelopes for Birth Rate, Life Time and Velocity was set, those that would
change during the rotation.
Then I cloned five new Emitters from the first one, so I got six in total with ready-made settings. Now I
could rename all Emitters. I placed them at each nozzle respectively and turned them so their normals
were directed correctly. When done, I parented all Emitters to the rotating hose.

Then I edited the settings in the envelopes. As the curves already were there I only had to move all points
together along the x-axis, because the Emitter should only blast when it was in the active sector during the
rotation. I did that by simply marking all points (with RMB). Then I pressed the Ctrl-key and moved the points
edgeways, with the mouse. It was easier than expected to correctly set the moment of spraying water.

Keeping track of all figures was hard
The most cumbersome was to shift settings between the 4 different fire-engines. It would not look real to
have all of them doing the exact same sequence simultaneously. In order to make everyone slightly different,
they had to start with different start-settings at different angles. As there were 6 arms on a full circle, I had
less than 60 degrees to play with.
I changed the starting point to different angles for each machine. I translated the angles of the rotation to
frames on the time-line. Some handy notes on a paper helped me to follow the different settings.
Now afterwards, I think that maybe a Dope Track could have been helpful here to set the starting point
in an easier way. But it is hard to take the time to consider every option when you are under pressure to
deliver. I am glad I did it in time.

Often when I read threads in this Forum I ask myself: How was it carried out at last? Which route did he
or she take? As you guys were so engaged and gave me good suggestions and advice I think it could be
interesting to hear about the outcome. Thatīs a little Thank you that you care for peers around the globe.

I am very glad to have this Forum as a helper in my work especially as I am only a part-time LW-user.
Thank you!