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badllarma
12-09-2003, 09:21 AM
title says it all any pic Matt BTW

cresshead
12-09-2003, 10:56 AM
yeah when you get back home...get a cuppa going n tell us how the event went.

BTW if you didn't have a camera you could draw a quick sketch in microsoft paint



:cool:

cresshead
12-09-2003, 11:10 AM
here's the latest screeen shot of lw 8
as grabbed by my "paint -o -cam"

nice clean interface...

steve g

badllarma
12-09-2003, 11:56 AM
that is just cooool:D

with no buttons or tabs must be mind operated I'll have the effects for the next Star Wars movie done in days :D

KillMe
12-09-2003, 12:11 PM
always thought mind operated 3d would be cool - best have mind operated rendering too =) i dont know wbaout you but my imagineation renders up images far faster than my puter ever does

Paul_Boland
12-09-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by badllarma
that is just cooool:D

with no buttons or tabs must be mind operated I'll have the effects for the next Star Wars movie done in days :D


LOL :D !!!

art
12-09-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by KillMe
always thought mind operated 3d would be cool - best have mind operated rendering too =) i dont know wbaout you but my imagineation renders up images far faster than my puter ever does
Can you render while you're asleep?
if there was a way to capture whats in your mind onto a screen or a 3d model... wouldn't that be great? Maybe sometime in the future...

T-Light
12-09-2003, 01:58 PM
Dream-Cam

Patent Pending :p

T-Light
12-09-2003, 02:07 PM
Has Mat been kidnapped?
Too much information too soon...
Newtek took precautions...

It was twenty quid to get in to the demo, nobody mentioned how much to get out!

:eek:

SamuraiSlayer
12-09-2003, 05:14 PM
Newtek just gave ME an update on LW8, u guyz are pretty close, it's not mind operated, but instead, you buy the special Viewmaster 5000 screen from them, and you can reach your hand through the screen. You then manipulate the object with your hands. Oh yea, no lighting feature, but this is better tho, bcuz now, you just point a flashlight at the screen and the light casts onto the object. This is definitely revolutionary... because now, they dont have a modeler, you are supplied with 5 lbs of clay, you model your object EXTERNALLY, and just stick it in the screen. As for rendering scenes in your mind, that's the coolest part. Stick you're head in the screen, and grab the "Render" handle with your hand. It used the power of your brain, and after rendered, the information circulates with in the metamorphic field of the screen, and is captured by the magic ball, the ball then zaps it into the hard drive's magnetic field. WARNING: LEAVE HALF OF YOUR BODY OUT OF THE SCREEN AT ALL TIMES, IF YOU FAIL TO FOLLOW THIS WARNING YOU MAY END UP TRAPPED INSIDE A 3D WORLD AND HAVE TO FIGHT POWER RANGERS TO ESCAPE.

Another cool feature, thx to GAY-O-L 9.0 Optimized, is that while your head is inside the screen you can use it to increase your internet speed, and beam your renders to the vbulletin website.

COOL, HUH?!!!!!!:) :)

Karmacop
12-09-2003, 06:33 PM
I saw lw8 yesterday and I think it looks great. The interface is looking a bit bland I think, but the organisation of the tabs and buttons is much better.

I'm not sure what kind of machine he was using but dynamics is seriously just about real time, it was not cached before hand.

The new dope track looks amazing. I haven't seen one before but screenshots don't do it justice.

The new bone editing tools look amazing. You can move joints and tips and rotate the rest rotation. I think there's also a tool to align all of the bank angles in a chain .. or the ones you've selected.

Modeler hasn't been changed that much, but the menu layout is much cleaner. There's not alot of big new features, just a lot of small ones. For example, with the move tool you an now move based on normals. Just simple stuff like that.

Also, they may be removing the old bandsaw and replacing it with David Ikeda's cut tool ... but it doesn't look as if it has been changed much.

From what I heard Layout's enhancements are essentially done, and at this point in development they've started adding features to modeler.

I think that's about it .. it really does look like a great update though.

Chris S. (Fez)
12-09-2003, 06:49 PM
Thanks for the update. Did you notice any Modeler display enhancements, like true transparency and/or textured wireframe?

Any crashes during the demo?

SamuraiSlayer
12-09-2003, 07:01 PM
Oh sorry guyz, i forgot, the LW i described is LW9 :)

Karmacop
12-09-2003, 07:23 PM
No, I didn't get to see anything like that in modeler or layout, but no objects were shown with transparency so I can't say anything for sure.

There was one crash, I tihnk while loading a scene that had plugins that weren't loaded (Jonny had brought in his own scenes to show), but I'm fairly sure the scene then loaded fine later on, so I'm saying it was a 'random crash' at the moment :)

badllarma
12-09-2003, 11:34 PM
Cheers Karmacop

Thanks for the update sounds good cannot wait to get hold of those animation tools. :D
Modeler is what I'm expecting really, very little BUT I can do what I need to do now with it so no real problems there.

samartin
12-10-2003, 05:32 AM
Well it does seem quiet positive on the animation side, which is a good thing for me, I can never get my head around the current system...

Were there any noticable improvements to the oGL side of things ???

Karmacop
12-10-2003, 05:50 AM
I think there's a big commitment to keep development going full steam after the release, and have more updates like the video toaster. So the first of these releases would most likely be modeling tools from the sounds of it, but I guess that remains to be seen.

I couldn't see any difference with the Open GL, but I know for a fact that it has been rewritten for LW8. Hopefully we'll see real transparency ...

Maxx
12-10-2003, 06:05 AM
Any word on the new Modeler selection methods that the 3D World article hinted at? I'm guessing that it's not edge selection or the board would be crazy right now (don't need 'em personally, but it seems a lot of people do, and I wouldn't mind seeing them for workflow issues. Anyway...). Just wonderin'. :D

Yog
12-10-2003, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by Maxx
Any word on the new Modeler selection methods that the 3D World article hinted at? I'm guessing that it's not edge selection or the board would be crazy right now (don't need 'em personally, but it seems a lot of people do, and I wouldn't mind seeing them for workflow issues. Anyway...). Just wonderin'. :D

DI-Powertools includes loop select and ring select for points, so this is probably the "new" select tools that 3D World are refering to.
The "new" move tool based on normals is also included with Di-Powertools.

Maxx
12-10-2003, 06:50 AM
Ahh - good point. Forgot about the loop and ring select. Thanks!

Karmacop
12-10-2003, 07:18 AM
Nope, infact there wasn't even a volume select, but I assume that's because Jonny doesn't use it, or because William set it up for him and he doesn't use it :p

I'm fairly sure there is now a selection button down with the morph, texture and weight buttons (along with a vertex colour button) so that it is much faster and easier to load and save selection sets, which I think is very cool.

Yog, I have power tools and I don't see any move based on normals tool?

hrgiger
12-10-2003, 07:26 AM
Karma, did they say there was more to be revealed yet?

WilliamVaughan
12-10-2003, 07:29 AM
:)

Yog
12-10-2003, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by Karmacop


Yog, I have power tools and I don't see any move based on normals tool?

If you select a polygon or polygons then the Di tool "Translate" and then move your mouse with the right mouse button held down it will move and scale the polygon(s) based on it's normal, like similar to an interactive smooth shift.

If however you hold down the CTRL key whilst RMB dragging, it will move a single polygon along it's normal without scaling, or if a group of polys is selected it will move the group based on the averaged normal.

A lot of DI-Powertools have secondary functions based on different key combinations, so a lot of "new" tools will be included.

Karmacop
12-10-2003, 07:51 AM
I'm sure they're still working on stuff now, and I don't think Newtek are the kind of people to give away all their tricks before release :p

Ahh thanks Yog, I didn't know about that, very cool! :)

But as I've said, I don't think they've changed DI's tools much at all :(

hrgiger
12-10-2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by proton
:)

That's what I thought....;)

anieves
12-10-2003, 08:43 AM
I hope they make some of the modeler tools more interactive. I had to put up with a Max user bothering me cause LW can not interactively make a torus, you have to click ok in order to see it, needs the numeric panel badly as well as the array tools.... I guess he has a good point there... but man is he annoying.

c i k l o n
12-10-2003, 09:05 AM
Hi Proton ! :)

Can we expect ALPHA BUG FIX in LW 8 ? :)



Feature of LightWave 8 make me so happy :) !!!

Paul_Boland
12-10-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by T-Light
Has Mat been kidnapped?
Too much information too soon...
Newtek took precautions...

It was twenty quid to get in to the demo, nobody mentioned how much to get out!

:eek:

LOL :D !!!
Damn, you're all mad on this forum ;) !

Thanks for the update, wish I could have seen it myself.
Any word on a release date? Will it be 2003?

KillMe
12-10-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by anieves
I hope they make some of the modeler tools more interactive. I had to put up with a Max user bothering me cause LW can not interactively make a torus, you have to click ok in order to see it, needs the numeric panel badly as well as the array tools.... I guess he has a good point there... but man is he annoying.

what you can do is make it then use the point normal move to make it fatter or thinner interactively =) and obvoiously scale it using the scale tool - but yeah a interactive create would be a nice if low priority idea

anieves
12-10-2003, 01:20 PM
that's a good workaround, but it really shouldn't be a workaround.

How about the array tools?

Chingis
12-10-2003, 01:51 PM
Did you guys know that you can use the superquadric tool to make an interactive toroid - just ajust the side and top bulge.
Then find a really annoying way to jam it down your MAX friends
ear. :)

art
12-10-2003, 01:56 PM
I agree with you guys, interactivity for some of the tools currently available in the modeler would be certainly welcome.
I've been trying to write some interactive modeling lscripts with panels where geometry was updated as the values changed. It worked to some extent, but the solution was cumbersome in terms of programming (im a newbie lscripter) and I could not do anything beyond changing values in the panel, that is I could not drag in viewports etc.
It can be done in regular plugins written in c, I know, but does anyone know how to achieve interactivity using lscript and if its possible at all? if so, any simple examples available?

anieves
12-10-2003, 02:06 PM
Man, I hate to be so negative and even though superquadric is cool is not really a torus shape. and getting the "perfect" torus with superquadric is kinda dificult.

Modeler needs to have those interactive like the box and ball tools.

art
12-10-2003, 03:11 PM
My lscript was a semi-interactive creation of a spherized cube. User could change the size as well as the number of divisions, among a couple of other things. While not all that usefull, considering the fact that spherize is already available in modeler, I was just trying the concept of an interactive lscript.

Karmacop
12-10-2003, 04:27 PM
Actually I'm not sure about the torus thing, because the primative tools only had about 6 buttons, and they seemed to just be box, sphere, cylinder etc ... I'm sure you'll be able to do it, but it's not in the standard interface :confused:

Dodgy
12-10-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by anieves
Man, I hate to be so negative and even though superquadric is cool is not really a torus shape. and getting the "perfect" torus with superquadric is kinda dificult.


Umm, I didn't find it that difficult. Just set side bulge and top bulge to 2, and (obviously!) shape to toroid, whola, a toroid....

cresshead
12-10-2003, 05:17 PM
here's a screen grab for ya...

TORUS....

cresshead
12-10-2003, 05:23 PM
ring/tube as well...

not an ideal "tube" model creator but it sorta works!

cresshead
12-10-2003, 05:31 PM
other cool stuff...
note the bevel edge that's created...neat!

steve g

anieves
12-10-2003, 07:25 PM
ok, ok, try changing the thicknes of the torus while keeping the relative radius the same... not so easy anymore is it? in other words, try changing the hole size without changing the thickness of the torus and vice versa.... I'm not saying it can not be done, I'm saying it is not so easy as the box or ball tool.

if there was a way to lock the the x and z it would be easier to do

in max is just click and drag... yet again max doesn't have a super quadric tool... maybe I'll show that to him and see what excuses he comes up with. ;)

cresshead
12-10-2003, 07:42 PM
really the thing you should show a max user [i am one..] is really not a creation of a primative but how to actually model...

try just something simple like say the drag tool on a subpatched simple object wuth the cage turned off so you just grab the crossing points on the surface of the subpatched object...then ask him to do that in max...he can't!

he''ll have to model with radio control!
..you know move the lo res cage that may not be anyway near the meshsmoothed surface at all..move it and see what happened...hardly feels "hands on" in max....

also maybe the head creation video's by userdelta on newtek's site....that'll make him think abit!....use a box...err 3 tools only and create a human head..all in one view!.....in about an hour ...realtime!

..or magic bevel!

or the symetry tool!

or booleans!....
most of the time max booleans are..yuk or do not work at all...

or saslite....for fur or grass....no need to buy a plugin...

or the lack of the whole deal of "sub object" that max is based on...

or simply a camera in layout...just rotate whilst in camera view....

then jump over to max and make a camera that doesn't have a target...free camera and look thru it..C key in max...
then use the camera rotate tools...ahh...what goes wrong there!...


or open gl fog in layout
or open gl lensfares...

or render out to psd files with layers....
..you'll need a $200 plugin to do that in max!
[from cebas.com]

...see you really need to ask a max user what he's like in max from lightwave!


later

anieves
12-10-2003, 08:11 PM
you are preaching to the choir here, all those are good suggestions, keep 'em coming!

I did have a challenge for him, of recreating a model I did in LW wich had some morph maps... he hasn't taken the challenge....

now he is using Max 6 and apparently sub d objects are tackled differently... is that right?

I tried to learn Max but I find myself fighting it more than creating.

Every time I bring up a cool LW feature that would be imposible in Max I always get a response like "but Max has construction history, everybody has that but LW" then I see I'm going nowhere and just let my renders speak for themself.

Yog
12-11-2003, 03:44 AM
Sub-D's are still handled the same way in MAX 6 as previous versions. The difference is that MAX 6 now has the option of displaying the Isolines instead of the basic cage or every newly created. Unfortunately you cannot edit with the Isolines, so apart from speeding up the viewport it is not very useful at all.

Although as I dig further and further into MAX I am finding tools that I really would like to have in LW, like edge chamfer, smoothing groups, lofting scale factors controlled by a graph spline, the cut tool is excellent, the poly tools that come with Meshtools and CS-Polytools are extremely useful and easy to use (Di-Powertools replicate some of the functions, but are not quite so intuitive). Add in the door, window and stair parametric objects that now come standard with MAX and you have a very capable modeller that is way ahead of where it was just a couple years ago.
I wont even begin to compare renderers, 3rd party or otherwise.

Addmitadly there are still modelling tools in LW that I would really like to have in MAX, like Vertibeval and the ability to create vertices that are not attached to polygons, but for modelling non-organic models I feel that MAX is really begining to steal a march on LW.

Matt
12-11-2003, 03:56 AM
Yes they locked me a room so I couldn't tell you about what I saw! ;)

Well, to be honest, most of it we've seen already at either SIGGRAPH or as screenshots on the forum.

I don't have my notes with me so this is from memory.

Good things:

Character Stuff

The character stuff looked awesome, ultra-fast and easy to setup, I know little about character rigging, but this makes it look easy.

The 'IK Boost' tool has to be active for all the right mouse menu goodies to appear, this is apparently to stop you accidently stuffing your rig.

It looks like all the tools for skelegons are now in Layout, you can fuse bones to make one bone, split bones into however many you need, join bones end to end etc.

So it's now possible to have a whole bunch of rig parts (arms, legs etc.) which you can load / save mix and match, to create your rig, I think CA guys will be very happy indeed.

Dynamics Stuff

This is freaking awesome! Everything is built in, works with everything else and is much easier to setup and faster too.

One example Andy gave us was a flag blowing in the wind (nothing new about that) but then he had a particle emitter creating tiny 'dings' in the flag, so rain hitting the ground, bullet hits etc. are all possible, and very easy to setup!

Everyone will start blowing stuff up after this release too!

Hardlinking will open up many doors; basically you have low poly (or polychain) geometry in one model layer the same overall size as your full model in another layer. Apply an FX to the low poly version, calculate, then FX_Hardlink that to the other layer and hey presto! This was shown at SIGGRAPH, doing chains and many other things will be cake now!

I think people will find many uses for the new dynamics stuff.

Bad points:

No major Modeler updates other than the plugins already available to us thrown in, although there was talk of 'architectural tools', what these were exactly, and whether they will be for v8 we're not sure, but it sounded very promising.

Dopesheet was buggy as hell in the build we saw.

No renderer updates in the build we saw.

No Screamernet updates in the build we saw.

No surface editor updates in the build we saw.

No updates to HyperVoxels in the build we saw.

No fluid dynamics in the build we saw, slightly annoying really, the dynamics engine is almost certainly waiting to be tapped into for this.

- - - -

Aside from the features, what was good to hear was the positive attitude to NewTek since their programming sabbatical. Although they are now slightly behind in some areas (and amazing still ahead in others!)

It sounds like the new team are going back to the roots of what made NewTek - NewTek. Issues with Luxology are now out of the way and we can all get on with it.

Where a lot of the industry had consigned LightWave to an early grave, this release will make people sit up and take notice again, v8.5 / v9 will blow them away.

NewTek are definately back, well they never really went away they just had some stuff to do!

:)

- - -

Oh, nearly forgot, it's looking like the release date will be Jan/Feb next year too, they're putting soooo much into this release that it's taking longer than expected, once all the features are in they have to write the docs too!

Personally I'm not bothered by this, I'd rather it was late and finished than on time and buggy.

However this is in no way an official statement and it could still arrive this year, just don't count on it doing so and you won't be dissappointed!

T-Light
12-11-2003, 04:43 AM
Hello Mat,

Nice to see you got away unscathed, I've heard a Newtek mousemat can be a dangerous weapon in trained hands. :p

Any Idea how old the beta was?
Karmacop had me worried when he wrote he'd just seen a demo of 8 and was told they'd just started working on modeller!
(This thread - couple of days ago)

If this info is bang up to date...
Santa may not be delivering after all :(

Matt
12-11-2003, 05:02 AM
I wrote the build number/date down but it's at home! However it was definately December, I also remember Andy saying he only received it from our good man Proton last Friday, so I guess it was pretty recent!

Karmacop
12-11-2003, 05:06 AM
Yog, smoothing groups are supported by LWO, there's just no tools for them :rolleyes:

Matt
12-11-2003, 05:14 AM
oh something else that was nice - when animating bones you have a preview of the animation, not quite a full wireframe preview, it's a series of dots (from the bone tip) that show where the bone has been, kind of like onion skinning but not quite, useful all the same.

T-Light
12-11-2003, 05:34 AM
Built in December you say?

I was sort of hoping for an August / September answer to that one.

Still, I bought the upgrade for faster character rigging and was keeping my fingers crossed for a more advanced (faster) dynamics system.
Looks like I'm in luck. :)

Something you mentioned there about fluid dynamics. It may be nothing, but Realflow sent me a rather expensive marketing pack a few months ago.

Essentially they were attempting to sell Realflow 2.0 at a cut down price. To make use of the offer, you had to purchase before the end of the third quarter 03.

As we all know, Lightwave 8 was set to ship in the fourth!

More than coincidence?

Matt
12-11-2003, 05:45 AM
a lot of people at the preview had been hit with marketing info about RealFlow/RealWave, I wouldn't read too much into release date times.

hrgiger
12-11-2003, 06:05 AM
I got that pack from RealFlow too. It was pretty cool, I liked the little liuqid business card....
I doubt it has anything to do with the release of Lightwave.

Yog
12-11-2003, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by Matt


No major Modeler updates other than the plugins already available to us thrown in, although there was talk of 'architectural tools', what these were exactly, and whether they will be for v8 we're not sure, but it sounded very promising.


It’s probably a totally unrelated anecdote, but in 1996 whilst making enquires with the then sole distributor of LW in the UK (AmgFX), I was asked what my use for LW was, and I replied architectural visualisation. Well wouldn’t you just know it, but according to the rep the next release of LW was going to have a raft of new features that were specifically aimed at Architects. In fact Newtek were looking to move more into the architectural market.
Well being the cynic I am, I wasn’t too surprised that when LW 5.5 came around it didn’t contain anything new that was specific to arch-vis.

If Newtek are serious about bringing in tools for arch-vis, here are some suggestions :

Support for the DWG format (not so easy as Autodesk have a nasty habit of “improving” it with each release). This would require a level of support above that which was given to the Lightscape format.

The implementation of “Group” as an object type (or “Block” in CAD terms), to allow the creation of a complex objects that can be picked, moved, scaled, rotated as a single entity within Modeler. And no, “parts” don’t cut it because they return to individual polygons if you copy and paste them.

Allow 3rd party renderers, if Newtek haven’t the time, inclination or resources to improve the native renderer, at least allow us options.

Splines that are capable of being made from straight sections. Rail extruding moulded skirting and architrave would be a lot easier if this were the case.

Allowing tiling of repeating UV textures as a setting in the surface editor, as opposed to the very clumsy method of having to scale all the polygons in the UV window to several degrees of magnitude in order to create a repeating pattern (i.e. tiles).

When using “Create UV’s” when using the Automatic or Knots options in rail extrude, have the UV spacing mirror the spacing of the resulting geometry. At the moment the UV spacing is uniform only, which means that it is useless unless the rail extrude is set to uniform lengths (which is very wasteful). This also goes for UV-Spider.

Personally I don’t use them a lot, but if they are serious about supporting arch-vis they should include support for the IES lighting standard (photometric lights).

An adjustable clipping plane for the camera. Would allow a virtual slice through a model (respecting internal spaces) allowing for sections to be displayed through a building.

Orthographic views when rendering. If you are going to create a 3D model of a new building, why not be able to render out orthographic elevations and sections that could be submitted to planning.

Construction planes/local grids. Allow for the creation of a custom interface grid for each floor of the building, pick the relevant grid and then start adding detail on that floor knowing the objects will automatically be grounded to the right level.

T-Light
12-11-2003, 06:09 AM
I hear you Mat,

But...
Everybody, at the demo in London was serious about Lightwave (paid entry, travel etc). Most of the people who recieved the Realflow bumf, would have registered with realflow for the demo, and realflow would know which 3D software they were using.

I went along to their site to check out the prices and the same offer was nowhere to be seen. I was just wondering if it was the LW community that were being targeted, as far as I'm aware, LW is one of the only 3D programs with generic support for fluid dynamics, most other software needs expensive commercial plugins - aka realflow.

I'm not suggesting that LW will incorporate such advanced features as realflow, I'm just saying that the folks at realflow may have been thinking that LW 8, may in fact be advanced enough to make people less likely to look elsewhere, hence the offer.


Then again, as I say, it may be nothing.

Cheers ;)

T-Light
12-11-2003, 06:17 AM
Hi Hrgiger,

Isn't that card amazing :) Looks like they use the same stuff on the side of their manuals to0. Would look great on the shelf, but I'll wait and see what comes in 8 / 8.5 before breaking the bank (Again)

Dodgy
12-11-2003, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Matt
No surface editor updates in the build we saw.


We've seen the new surface editor spread sheet in the screenshots from proton. Could it be they haven't made it into the full build yet?

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14582&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Matt
12-11-2003, 07:17 AM
not quite the same, I meant the surface editor itself, not the editable surface attributes in the new spreadsheet editor.

badllarma
12-11-2003, 07:29 AM
:D
Cheers for the update Matt I knew others were going but just remebered your name when I looked at the orginal thread with regards to going to the event.

Thought the the fact we had not heard from you was maybe you had "borrowed" the trainers/previewers laptop and were going to give us a full review from a hill side in Wales or something :D

Any way cheers for the info :)

The Jan Feb release figures so long as it works no problems from me.. Just remeber all the guys/ gals working at Newtek, Redbull is your friend :D

you never know
11:59:59pm on 31/12/03 may not be a bad guess :)

Matt
12-11-2003, 07:36 AM
I was gonna ask for some screenshots d/l'd to a CD, but I thought that might be a step too far! :)

BeeVee
12-11-2003, 07:59 AM
Not that I'm part of the development team, but I just thought I'd say that you can't buy Red Bull over here in France, it's a banned drink... :)

B

T-Light
12-11-2003, 08:19 AM
BeeVee that's shocking :eek:

Jacques Chirac has a lot to answer for.

Matt
12-11-2003, 08:22 AM
I'm sure it was taken off the shelves here for a while in its early days.

Now it gives you wings so I guess it's okay! :rolleyes:

Can't be any worse than nuclear strength French coffee!

BeeVee
12-11-2003, 08:39 AM
YES WE DO DRINK A LOT OF COFFEE AND INDUSTRIAL STRENGTH 74% COCOA CHOCOLATE, SO WE'RE ALREADY WIRED ENOUGH AS IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!

(Caps on on purpose, so sorry for the damage to everyones' eyes...) :)


B

TyVole
12-11-2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by BeeVee
Not that I'm part of the development team, but I just thought I'd say that you can't buy Red Bull over here in France, it's a banned drink... :)

B

Not surprising considering you've also banned that wonderful drink absinthe.

BeeVee
12-11-2003, 09:57 AM
I think that was pretty much banned everywhere in Europe in the 1930s... The UK now has it on sale again, but I'm not sure if it's real Wormwood liqueur or a drink with the name Absinthe - it strikes me as far too complicated a drink to drink in these days of alco-pops and bottled beers that everyone swigs from the bottle...

B

BeeVee
12-11-2003, 09:59 AM
I was wrong saying 1930s - it seems from this website that it was banned much earlier: http://www.mattonigranddrink.com/indepth1.php?year=2001&month=10

B

Aegis
12-11-2003, 10:01 AM
Yog: As a former employee of AMGFX I can hand on heart say that any and all outrageous claims made about LightWave by AMG umm... representatives were almost certainly due to "overenthusiasm" on the part of said representative - NewTek to my knowledge have seldom made any claims about their software that have been unsubstantiated (with one or two notable exceptions)... ;)

TyVole
12-11-2003, 10:08 AM
They still produce and sell absinthe in the Czech Republic -- from wormwood no less.

One night, a few friends and I drank a whole bottle to see if would really go blind.

We didn't.

Aegis
12-11-2003, 10:09 AM
But you did grow a mustache... :D

BeeVee
12-11-2003, 10:16 AM
...and got a funny haircut... :)

Did you do the whole thing with the sugar and the distilled water and so on?

PS. Going blind isn't a good idea for a LightWave artist! :)

B

Jaffro
12-11-2003, 11:29 AM
Alright Matt (i am the young guy who was sitting next to you at the preview) good to see your alive!

I got my notes here and it was LW8 Beta 637 03 December release.

The crashing dope sheet was a HUGE dissapointment, I'm really hoping that it was just due to something small and simple that will be resolved soon, proton? :S It was something im looking forward to and was a real shame not to see it working, but at least it exists and looks very promising!

I'd like to echo the 'cool-ness' of the dynamics/fx simulations. Seeing a collision object deform a ball and leave ripples in was cool, but to then watch as the settings were changed live DURING playback of the animation was amazing. I managed a quiet 'ooo' then ;)

I hear from a ski racer friend that red bull (and other energy type drinks) are banned from sale to under 16's in the uk!

ufo3d
12-11-2003, 11:44 AM
Still Beta ??:(

I hope Dopesheet is not another lw motion mixer.

Matt
12-11-2003, 11:53 AM
Ahoy there matey!

Good to put a face to users of the forum.

- - -

Yeah the 'jelly' type effect was very cool, just a tiny example of the dynamics engines power.

03 December build? That's earlier than I remembered, maybe the Dopesheet will be finished!

Jaffro
12-11-2003, 12:29 PM
I'm almost 100% sure the dopesheet wont be another motionmixer. It looked to be very powerful little program, and it WILL be finished, simply because i want it so much :D hehe

03 Dec - thats what i got written down at least, if you think about it Andy was saying he got it on the friday (5th) so its only 2 days before that, probably more like 1 day of actual updating to code etc.

Matt, i went along to the nt Europe sit and saw your interview. Do like those trains, all your work is really nice and clean. Its so tempting to do one of the newer trains, might not have them in north london yet, but they're really quite cool inside, only slightly different but nice and curvey rails and such likes.

Matt
12-11-2003, 12:58 PM
thx jaffro, had a look at your M&S stuff too! is that radiosity or clever use of area lights? looked nice anyway!

the train interior on the NT site is okay I suppose, I'm still trying to do better (without using radiosity)!

we didn't design the interior for that train, we did the other end which you can't really see because it's sensitive-ish! :) we would do it much better given a free reign!

Paul_Boland
12-11-2003, 01:12 PM
Thanks for the update. Sounds cool!!
Please forgive my ignorance but what is a Dopesheet?

Jaffro
12-11-2003, 01:23 PM
You'd be supprised what you can do without radiosity or area lights ;) I gotta go out, will explain later!

Paul - Here's a quote out of my 'Animators Survial Kit' book - a must have for any character animator i must say. "Its just a simple and efficient form where animators write down the action and dialogue (for music beats) for a scene or shot - plus the information for shooting.". This is in reference to traditional 2D animation, the 3D version is slightly different. Hope this at least helps to explain, im in a rush so im sorry for not being more accurate! :)

Matt
12-11-2003, 02:00 PM
ahh spinning lights then! :)

sire
12-11-2003, 06:13 PM
Gee, happens I'm a bit late in this thread. The infos about the LW8 previews sound quite interesting, to mention something on-topic. :) But actually I wanted to comment some of the lines written about current LW features vs. wish lists and so on:

Yog wrote:
If you select a polygon or polygons then the Di tool "Translate" and then move your mouse with the right mouse button held down it will move and scale the polygon(s) based on it's normal, like similar to an interactive smooth shift.

Actually it's exactly like an interactive Smooth Scale.

Matt:
Hardlinking will open up many doors; basically you have low poly (or polychain) geometry in one model layer the same overall size as your full model in another layer. Apply an FX to the low poly version, calculate, then FX_Hardlink that to the other layer and hey presto!

This sounds like MD Metaplug. However I guess it's much easier to setup now.

Karmacop:
Yog, smoothing groups are supported by LWO, there's just no tools for them.

You mean by setting the smoothing angle to maximum and then cut/paste the polygons which should form a smoothing group? This has some drawbacks, however. Whenever a Merge Points operation is due, all those smoothing groups will be gone.

Yog:
The implementation of “Group” as an object type (or “Block” in CAD terms), to allow the creation of a complex objects that can be picked, moved, scaled, rotated as a single entity within Modeler. And no, “parts” don’t cut it because they return to individual polygons if you copy and paste them.

What do you mean? When I copy and paste a part, the new polygons inherit the part setting of the original. Maybe something like Select Connected Of Same Part would help you out?

Allow 3rd party renderers, if Newtek haven’t the time, inclination or resources to improve the native renderer, at least allow us options.

Suggesting to "allow" other renderers almost sounds like it was forbidden or impossible now. But actually there already are plugin interfaces for external renders for ages in LW, or aren't they? After all what are plugins like Sasquatch or Hypervoxels other than custom renderers? I wonder what LW really lacks to allow renderers like MentalRay to be implemented as a LW rendering plugin? They could be even external mainly and just adding a communication plugin into Layout, similar to the way Bodypaint handles it (the scene would then be first exported to a temp file and the actual renderer launched with parameters set up inside the LW interface).

Splines that are capable of being made from straight sections. Rail extruding moulded skirting and architrave would be a lot easier if this were the case.

Oh well, yeah. I deeply agree. There definitely were a few times I really desired something like this. The ability to use 2point-polychains instead of splines as rails would be an alternative solution.

An adjustable clipping plane for the camera. Would allow a virtual slice through a model (respecting internal spaces) allowing for sections to be displayed through a building.

You can use Shift's Boolean Texture shader plugin to do that (search for "boolean" on Flay). FI's Shaders also contain a plugin capable of render-time boolean operations.

Orthographic views when rendering. If you are going to create a 3D model of a new building, why not be able to render out orthographic elevations and sections that could be submitted to planning.

Together with one of the plugins mentioned above to carve the right area out, you could just move the camera some kilometers away and enter a very high Zoom Factor. Of course, it's not a fancy button but a workaround, but still easy.

Construction planes/local grids. Allow for the creation of a custom interface grid for each floor of the building, pick the relevant grid and then start adding detail on that floor knowing the objects will automatically be grounded to the right level.

Why not just moving the model instead of the grid, using it as a background layer and Rest On Ground for the newly created stuff? This shouldn't be too laborious.

badllarma
12-11-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by BeeVee
Not that I'm part of the development team, but I just thought I'd say that you can't buy Red Bull over here in France, it's a banned drink... :)

B
It's in my "in case of deadline break glass and drink this" box on the wall :D

used it a few months ago to get a project finished for a friends Illustraion Degree he designed the characters and I 3Ded it and did all the animating (to give and impression of how the characters worked in the final story) 26 hour straight to finish.

boy did that bite me in the arse 2 days later:rolleyes:

He go the qualifaication though so it was all worth it. :D

Hervé
12-12-2003, 12:40 AM
I've just smell the taste of that red bull drink..... jeeeez that's not for me.... rather take amphetamines....

badllarma
12-12-2003, 01:37 AM
Oh I don't like the stuff, smell or taste really it just gets the job done:D

Worst thing I ever did was drink a can in the car then leave it in a footwell unfortunately I'd not drank every last drop, the car stank of the stuff for weeks bloody awful :rolleyes:

j3st3r
12-12-2003, 01:50 AM
Sire, your comments mostly suggests workarounds. But workarounds are usually not a solution.

Smooth scale is not same as DI Translate, because Smooth Scale operates on VERTEX normals. If you do it on a planar poly, it`s the same, but whenever your polygon is not flat, your smotthscaled polygon will scale (therefore the name smoothSCALE)

Orthographic. It`s a workaround but it`s a standard in EACH application to render an orthograpic viewport. And this trick you mentioned will not eliminate the perspective totally. We made a sidescroll game, and it was a pain in the *** to solve this. at the edge of the stage there were significant perspective distortion.

For construction plane. I suggest Local Coordinates instead of this. Thanks god, JettoBevel`s author create a very good tool (also a workaround, but works very well) named JettoLocal.

Smoothing group. In all other program, smoothing is independant of surface, it`s a user decision if an edge is hard or smooth. It`s funny, that in game developement I have to use many surface to be able define correct smoothing (or creasing) on my Lowpoly model...

All the rest I agree deeply

Karmacop
12-12-2003, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by sire

Karmacop:
Yog, smoothing groups are supported by LWO, there's just no tools for them.

You mean by setting the smoothing angle to maximum and then cut/paste the polygons which should form a smoothing group? This has some drawbacks, however. Whenever a Merge Points operation is due, all those smoothing groups will be gone.


No, as in there is a specific tag, much like a weight map or uv map, that specifies a smoothing group and it's in the LWO format right now. I'm not sure if the LW OGL recognises this or not but it is there, so maybe someone could try to make a plugin ...

Hervé
12-12-2003, 03:49 AM
I also wish Surface Baker to support that feature....

Yog
12-12-2003, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by sire
Yog:
The implementation of “Group” as an object type ...... And no, “parts” don’t cut it .....

What do you mean? When I copy and paste a part, the new polygons inherit the part setting of the original. Maybe something like Select Connected Of Same Part would help you out?

No this is part of the problem with Parts, you do a copy and paste and the new polygons are added to the original Part.
Take a model of a door as an example. In MAX I will model the door with various parts and link them together as a Group. If I then want to move or rotate the door I just click on it and it selects the whole group, and if I make a copy it automatically makes a new Group for the second door.
In LW if I wanted to select the part that contains the elements of the door I will have to go to the statistics window, click on Parts, scroll down to the door group, click on it, then click on the plus sign next to Parts, then if I have previously copied the door I will have to manually deselect the other polygons from the other doors.
Sure it is possible, but it is a bit more involved than a single click.

Suggesting to "allow" other renderers almost sounds like it was forbidden or impossible now. But actually there already are plugin interfaces for external renders for ages in LW, or aren't they? After all what are plugins like Sasquatch or Hypervoxels other than custom renderers?

Unfortunately not, these are just shaders, albeit pretty impressive shaders in the case of the Worely ones, but not full blown renderers. None of the existing 3rd party render developers will touch LW whilst they are still unable to reach into the core of the program. Even Steve Worely who has been producing LW based lighting shaders for years still has major problems trying to work-around LW's SDK, i.e. area lights.


An adjustable clipping plane for the camera.

You can use Shift's Boolean Texture shader plugin to do that (search for "boolean" on Flay). FI's Shaders also contain a plugin capable of render-time boolean operations.

Orthographic views when rendering.

Together with one of the plugins mentioned above to carve the right area out, you could just move the camera some kilometers away and enter a very high Zoom Factor. Of course, it's not a fancy button but a workaround, but still easy.

Sure there are work arounds, I've had to use them for years, but the idea was to illustrate how LW could be made more attractive to Architects, which would also make it more attractive to engineers, product developers, in fact anyone who has to do any product illustration or construction drawing.

Construction planes/local grids.

Why not just moving the model instead of the grid, using it as a background layer and Rest On Ground for the newly created stuff? This shouldn't be too laborious.

Well yes I would see this as pretty laborious.
Take any type of building, I'd first build up the walls and floors, add windows and doors and then go back in and add the furniture and fittings. In say the example of an office I might have 4 key levels, fllor, desktop, worktop, ceiling. Now if I have to start moving the whole building around for each of these levels, and then again for each floor of the building I would soon go insane.

Personally I layout all the furniture for each floor out at ground level (with the building in the background and then use the Move tool to move it vertically based on hand written notes I have made from the construction plans.
It's still a heck of a lot more work than construction planes/grids.

Yes there are work arounds for all the things I listed, but when they take several minutes to achieve in LW, but only a couple clicks in other programs, you have to start taking a long look at your workflow.

sire
12-12-2003, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by j3st3r
Smooth scale is not same as DI Translate, because Smooth Scale operates on VERTEX normals. If you do it on a planar poly, it`s the same, but whenever your polygon is not flat, your smotthscaled polygon will scale (therefore the name smoothSCALE)
Try it out, DI Translate with RMB really has the same effect as Smooth Scale, regardless if the polys are planar or not.



Orthographic. It`s a workaround but it`s a standard in EACH application to render an orthograpic viewport. And this trick you mentioned will not eliminate the perspective totally. We made a sidescroll game, and it was a pain in the *** to solve this. at the edge of the stage there were significant perspective distortion.
Ok, I guess with large renders even the tiny errors could cause problems. You should have tried FI'S_RayAlongNormal (part of FI's Shaders), with it you can do perfectly isometric renders (so orthographic, too), even way more funky stuff when not only using simple planes as projection receivers.


Smoothing group. In all other program, smoothing is independant of surface, it`s a user decision if an edge is hard or smooth. It`s funny, that in game developement I have to use many surface to be able define correct smoothing (or creasing) on my Lowpoly model...
When I did lowpoly vehicle models for a racing game in LW, at a certain stage I used smoothing groups. It worked the way I mentioned. I had to break up the topology of the models at the places where hard edges should appear, that is selecting the area which should have hard edges, cutting it and immediately pasting it back, so the position of the polys didn't change, but their points were no longer connected to their neighbor polys as before, so no smoothing could occur there. When the hard edge should not form a loop, I just welded the points back together where a smooth edge should be left.

But apart from this fake, apparently the LW object format even supports true smoothing groups, as Karmacop points out. I was quite surprised when I occasionally discovered that some time ago. Strange there seems to be no corresponding editing function in Modeler.

sire
12-12-2003, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by Yog
Take a model of a door as an example. In MAX I will model the door with various parts and link them together as a Group. If I then want to move or rotate the door I just click on it and it selects the whole group, and if I make a copy it automatically makes a new Group for the second door.
In LW if I wanted to select the part that contains the elements of the door I will have to go to the statistics window, click on Parts, scroll down to the door group, click on it, then click on the plus sign next to Parts, then if I have previously copied the door I will have to manually deselect the other polygons from the other doors.
Sure it is possible, but it is a bit more involved than a single click.

Ok, this is true. Could be a lot simpler. Like this Select Connected Of Same Part I suggested. Then the procedure would be reduced to one click for selecting one of the object's polys and hitting a key to select the appropriate rest. Maybe someone someday writes an LScript for this, shouldn't be too hard.

But regarding your point, of course it would be even better if NewTek would add it to the original out-of-the-box toolset of LW, so it would possibly be mentioned in reviews as genuine LW strength.

Personally I layout all the furniture for each floor out at ground level (with the building in the background and then use the Move tool to move it vertically based on hand written notes I have made from the construction plans.
It's still a heck of a lot more work than construction planes/grids.
Actually your problem could already be solved in a quicker way with a simple "Rest On Background Polygon" kind of LScript. However, again it would be nice if there was no need to write such a thing yourself or search the net for a plugin with this functionality.

Karmacop
12-12-2003, 06:23 AM
Straight from the SDK


Polygon Tag Mapping
PTAG { type[ID4], ( poly[VX], tag[U2] )* }

Associates tags of a given type with polygons in the most recent POLS chunk. The most common polygon tag types are

SURF
The surface assigned to the polygon. The actual surface attributes are found by matching the name in the TAGS chunk with the name in a SURF chunk.
PART
The part the polygon belongs to. Parts are named groups of polygons analogous to point selection sets (but a polygon can belong to only one part).
SMGP
The smoothing group the polygon belongs to. Shading is only interpolated within a smoothing group, not across groups.

The polygon is identified by an index into the previous POLS chunk, and the tag is given by an index into the previous TAGS chunk. Not all polygons will have a value for every tag type. The behavior for polygons lacking a given tag depends on the type.

Paul_Boland
12-15-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Jaffro
You'd be supprised what you can do without radiosity or area lights ;) I gotta go out, will explain later!

Paul - Here's a quote out of my 'Animators Survial Kit' book - a must have for any character animator i must say. "Its just a simple and efficient form where animators write down the action and dialogue (for music beats) for a scene or shot - plus the information for shooting.". This is in reference to traditional 2D animation, the 3D version is slightly different. Hope this at least helps to explain, im in a rush so im sorry for not being more accurate! :)

Thanks Jaffro. I kind of have an understanding of it now.