PDA

View Full Version : Instance animated deformation question



DrStrik9
11-28-2015, 04:32 PM
I'm getting a better understanding of instances in 2015.3, thanks to a bunch of tutorials from dwburman and others, plus a lot of trial and error (not necessarily in that order).

I presently have a field of grass, with around 28 stalks in a loose group, all with weight map from 0 at base to 100 at top, being deformed by a moving texture. The group of 28 stalks looks great, but so far I haven't found a way to animate instances of it that have that classic "waves of grain" look you see in the real world.

I'm using the parent setting with random time offset. And it looks "ok," but this doesn't really do the trick. The result is still a bit arbitrary and mechanical looking.

Of course, it's easy to get that "waves of grain" look with all actual geometry, but the poly overhead becomes ridiculous at a point, so accomplishing this goal with instances would be the way to go. I know there must be a nodal solution, but I'm really a noob at nodes.

To the node masters: how would you go about using nodes to create this "waves of grain" effect with instanced grass?

pinkmouse
11-29-2015, 02:40 AM
Post your scene, and I'll have a play.

Thomas Leitner
11-29-2015, 03:25 AM
....Of course, it's easy to get that "waves of grain" look with all actual geometry, but the poly overhead becomes ridiculous at a point, so accomplishing this goal with instances would be the way to go. I know there must be a nodal solution, but I'm really a noob at nodes.....

hi, if I understand your problem right:
You only can animate transform, rotate and scale individual for separate instances.
Itīs not possible for deformation like bones, displacement, mdds, morphs and so on.

So, if you use the native instance generator you have to make the "waves of grain" - animation with rotation of single blades. You cannot use deformations for this (to avoid misunderstandings: you can use objects with animated deformation for instancing, but you cannot control it for single instances separate).

There was a thread about this, but I donīt find it.

ciao
Thomas

prometheus
11-29-2015, 06:02 AM
Thatīs why I would like a fiberfx tool that can deal with very large areas of grassy fields.
think sasquatch did that better than fiberfx though.

I have yet to see a good example of instances beeing able to do it convincingly, after all ..it can not handle a bent deformation..only rotation for each instance, wich I donīt believe is realistic.

possible if you add several variations of deformations as seperate instances(not per blade..but add deformation to a larger area of poly blades..then the same for another area differently and seperate as instances) that could probably yield the undulation variations, though you can not reference it to for instance a chopper flying over a grassy field and effecting it..not that easy anyway..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enh2oPS-dvk

erikals
11-29-2015, 06:31 AM
think Sasquatch did that better than FiberFX though.

it'll be interesting to see how LW2016 copes with this...

wonder how DP instance(r) would look with this (as you can mdd offset it)

DrStrik9
11-29-2015, 08:15 AM
Thanks for your kind responses.


Post your scene, and I'll have a play.

Thank you. I’m busy all day today (delayed Thanksgiving celebration), but when I get time I'll post this test scene.



So, if you use the native instance generator you have to make the "waves of grain" - animation with rotation of single blades. You cannot use deformations for this (to avoid misunderstandings: you can use objects with animated deformation for instancing, but you cannot control it for single instances separate).

Yes, you said it well. So my “half-way” solution at this point is to use a group of blades (wild grass), not just a single blade. It looks a tiny bit better than a single blade, but the problem still exists.



I have yet to see a good example of instances beeing able to do it convincingly, after all ..it can not handle a bent deformation..only rotation for each instance, wich I donīt believe is realistic.

Yup. That’s the nature of the problem.

I like your fiberFX sample a lot, but it's just that, a sample, right? If I understand correctly, that’s basically what’s happening with instanced geometry (with the original geometry being a group of grass blades).


wonder how DP instance(r) would look with this (as you can mdd offset it)

Unfortunately, I can't use DP Instancer because of a render issue in 2015.3: all the instances render as if matte objects. (on Mac) Denis says he can’t continue support of DP Instancer, and Sensei says it’s because of changes in 2015.3’s instancing.



I also have an old scene with cloned geometry, which uses one simple texture deformation, and does a slightly better job. I'll try to find a render and put it on youtube with a link. (maybe)

If there was a magic way to “deform after instancing,” that might be a way to make instances act the same as actual geometry. — I know, dream on …

I keep watching Bryphi77’s videos, and marvel at his understanding of nodes. He insists that Lightwave can do more with nodes than most other 3D apps. -- I have a LONG way to go …

DrStrik9
11-29-2015, 08:40 AM
OK, I found the old scene/render of grass deformed using all geometry, and uploaded it to YouTube. It's a low-res render, but you can see the coherence of the grass deformation that I want to do with instanced grass.

https://youtu.be/2VuzXjfmZFs

Scene file later ...

--

EDIT: At around 0:36, the deformation seems to be most believable when it slows down/stops and then starts up again.

Kaptive
11-29-2015, 09:11 AM
Deleted post as it is not useful.

Kaptive
11-29-2015, 09:24 AM
I have yet to see a good example of instances beeing able to do it convincingly, after all ..it can not handle a bent deformation..only rotation for each instance, wich I donīt believe is realistic.


Yup. That’s the nature of the problem.


Ok, I see you want to go more complex, and the nodes can do a similar thing. All fine. Ignore my low-fi solution post I guess :) .

However, I do think you could create a couple of dozen blades of grass, each with their own morphs or displacements to add the random factor and combine it with nodes movement to create a convincing effect. Unless the eye is purposefully on the grass itself, you only really need to create the impression of the movement. It all depends on its' final use I guess.

No one watches individual blades of grass unless they look totally weird and draw the eye to them.

prometheus
11-29-2015, 10:26 AM
I like your fiberFX sample a lot, but it's just that, a sample, right? If I understand correctly, that’s basically what’s happening with instanced geometry (with the original geometry being a group of grass blades).


If there was a magic way to “deform after instancing,” that might be a way to make instances act the same as actual geometry. — I know, dream on …




Not sure what you mean by samples in my fiberfx "sample" it consists of no geometry..only fiberfx applied over the surface, no instancing what so ever..or cloning, the wind effect is made by using fractal procedurals in the gravity tab.

Regarding your dream about deforming after instancing, well you can..but it will be equal on all blades..but I get what your vision is, and yes..I had that wet dream too :) such thing would be a truly innovative thing though..creating rock instance from
one single object that has different deformation when instanced for example, and turning each blade or groups of blades bent deformed differently, turning figures in to a variaty of intances from the same base shape but having different face forms..though not sure that is technicly possible.

Kaptive
11-29-2015, 12:15 PM
Not sure what you mean by samples in my fiberfx "sample" it consists of no geometry..only fiberfx applied over the surface, no instancing what so ever..or cloning, the wind effect is made by using fractal procedurals in the gravity tab.

Regarding your dream about deforming after instancing, well you can..but it will be equal on all blades..but I get what your vision is, and yes..I had that wet dream too :) such thing would be a truly innovative thing though..creating rock instance from
one single object that has different deformation when instanced for example, and turning each blade or groups of blades bent deformed differently, turning figures in to a variaty of intances from the same base shape but having different face forms..though not sure that is technicly possible.

Not to mention how slow the scene might become as it works out each deformation on potentially tens of thousands of instances. Though once we have domestic quantum computers it should be a doddle. :) However, at that point it'll be doing our thinking for us and we'll just be responsible for making it coffee.

Curly_01
11-29-2015, 01:41 PM
Just take a look at polas smarthmoph effectors

http://polas.net/smorph/effectors.php

prometheus
11-29-2015, 02:35 PM
Just take a look at polas smarthmoph effectors

http://polas.net/smorph/effectors.php

As I understand it though..that wonīt work with instances..well it works sort of, except you would get patches of these blades bending all over at the place in the same time..wich makes the smart morph completly unnecessary.

This is the best tool and sample I have seen, not possible within 2015 today due to lack of support and licensing I think..old sasquatch pro..with dynamics(right click and save first is recommended.)

http://www.worley.com/Media/animations/sasquatch/chopper.avi

prometheus
11-29-2015, 02:50 PM
another thing to consider..
That is to render out in layers, split it up with segments in the foreground, middle and distance, and deactivate those parts not needed for that layered render pass in order to maintain it workable., then in comp software.

Kaptive
11-29-2015, 03:53 PM
This is the best tool and sample I have seen, not possible within 2015 today due to lack of support and licensing I think..old sasquatch pro..with dynamics(right click and save first is recommended.)

http://www.worley.com/Media/animations/sasquatch/chopper.avi

That is pretty awesome. Sometimes it amazes me how we can go backwards so easily when we lose a dev. Reelmotion was amazing for cars, bikes and aircraft... gone. Shave and haircut, gone.... well, to the other side. I'm sure the list is quite long. Such a pity.

prometheus
11-29-2015, 04:26 PM
That is pretty awesome. Sometimes it amazes me how we can go backwards so easily when we lose a dev. Reelmotion was amazing for cars, bikes and aircraft... gone. Shave and haircut, gone.... well, to the other side. I'm sure the list is quite long. Such a pity.

I donīt think that would be entirely impossible with fiberfx, problem with it is crashing or running out of memory in large fields, tested with 100 meters and lower..with 100 meters you cant set density too high though.
Depends on maybe, I was just revisiting with 2015 but on 32 bit, it may work much better in 64 bit to handle all that perhaps..I need to install that first though.
you can reference a null from within the gravityīs texture tab and use falloffs, so that would only effect the fiberfx in the areas where the null is moving above.

I tried reducing the size of the grass area, worked a bit better..renderered out a few sequences with the underwater fractal with build in speed, after checking render I noticed the wind was too fast moving..changed wave speed and tried to render a new sequence..then Crash...then giving up for today.

this is way nicer though...

nvidia realtime grass with dynamics and occlusion..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2j_HNzXUUc

nature fx..gone
dynamite gone
sasquatch gone
napalm fx gone
fprime gone
steamer gone

yeah..thatīs the thing of things.

Kaptive
11-29-2015, 05:00 PM
You know, you got me thinking. (o-oh!)
Well, if you can do it in fiberFX, then perhaps the best thing to do would be to setup the near camera grass properly, and then the rest in the background use a simple approach (like the nodes on instances with a procedural movement on the rotation). Once you get a certain distance it all starts to blur together anyway. You only need to infer the movement in the distance, especially if you utilise DoF. Just an thought!
To do a whole field in FiberFX is probably pretty inefficient anyways.


nvidia realtime grass with dynamics and occlusion..

Yeah... wow, crazy! It can be frustrating seeing these kinds of demos, especiially when it is all live. It's like the fluid demos they have shown. I wish LW was able to tap into these abilities. It can sometimes seem really stupid having to jump through hoops when demos like this show it being done live, interactive and actually far better than most of what we can do with slow calculations.

jwiede
11-30-2015, 04:14 AM
That is pretty awesome. Sometimes it amazes me how we can go backwards so easily when we lose a dev. Reelmotion was amazing for cars, bikes and aircraft... gone. Shave and haircut, gone.... well, to the other side. I'm sure the list is quite long. Such a pity.

LW users were unquestionably better off when we had a choice between multiple supported hair systems.

Kaptive
11-30-2015, 06:24 AM
LW users were unquestionably better off when we had a choice between multiple supported hair systems.

Absolutely. Still, here is hoping for the future and some talented devs appearing on the scene. You never know!

DrStrik9
11-30-2015, 10:31 AM
I ran into a snag with the deformations, and will post the scene as soon as I figure it out ... lots of Layout crashes slow me down too ... and real work. :+)