PDA

View Full Version : RE: New Blog Post With A Sneak Peak Video Showing Modeling Enhancements



robpowers3d
11-21-2015, 03:52 PM
Here is where you can discuss the new Blog Post including the sneak peak of Modeling Enhancements.

https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2015/11/iterative-design-and-modeling-workflow-improvements/

lightscape
11-21-2015, 03:58 PM
So who was it that said its impossible to add camera in modeller without a complete rewrite of modeller? Lol

robpowers3d
11-21-2015, 04:03 PM
Probably from the same school of thought that claimed that something like the VPR renderer was impossible in LightWave. ;) Barriers are made to be broken!

spherical
11-21-2015, 04:08 PM
So who was it that said its impossible to add camera in modeller without a complete rewrite of modeller? Lol

Well, you're missing the point and the concept. It isn't a "camera". It is Perspective mimicking that which a Camera in Layout is outputting. Gets the job done without having to do a whole rewrite. Feels like an offshoot/building upon the Match Viewport Perspective capability when creating a new or modifying an existing camera. Just ported across to Modeler.

bobakabob
11-21-2015, 04:13 PM
Very nice, and great to see those interactive tools in Modeler. Exciting times!

lightscape
11-21-2015, 04:13 PM
Well, you're missing the point and the concept. It isn't a "camera". It is Perspective mimicking that which a Camera in Layout is outputting. Gets the job done without having to do a whole rewrite.

Ah so that's what it is...thanks for pointing it out. :rolleyes: :D



I would go a step further with the new interactive array and add zbrush radial symmetry.

The wheel was created with radial symmetry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj_yNCj9JgY
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH8lhf0HWJE

Its uber useful.

Chris S. (Fez)
11-21-2015, 04:15 PM
Excellent. Simple straightforward workflow for the Camera view. And the Live tools look to be a powerful new paradigm...

DrStrik9
11-21-2015, 04:15 PM
Wow!

... and nice piano music, too. :+)

robpowers3d
11-21-2015, 04:17 PM
Well, you're missing the point and the concept. It isn't a "camera". It is Perspective mimicking that which a Camera in Layout is outputting. Gets the job done without having to do a whole rewrite.

Since we are dealing in the virtual 3D real nothing is really a "camera" but instead a viewport rendering an image from a give perspective and with specific mathematical parameters. :) For it to be useful for iterative design it must also have the ability to update the display at a rate that makes the creative decision making process possible in an acceptable way. Just pointing out that ultimately it's all a construct which is giving us the representation of a camera.

spherical
11-21-2015, 04:32 PM
This thread is moving too fast. :) I checked what I was remembering and then updated my post; to address the Match Viewport Perspective capability that came out in 11.x being extended into Modeler to create a camera view there.

spherical
11-21-2015, 05:11 PM
Ah so that's what it is...thanks for pointing it out.

Jest makin' sure. :rolleyes: :D ;)

hrgiger
11-21-2015, 05:27 PM
Thanks for the post Rob! Rob are there a few other tools there that weren't shown in video? Bow Bridge and Live Smooth? And what is the node editor control doing in a modeler tool?

dsol
11-21-2015, 05:35 PM
Really looking forward to LW2016 (or whatever it's called!)

lightscape
11-21-2015, 05:37 PM
that ultimately it's all a construct which is giving us the representation of a camera.

Hearing the word "contruct" twice in less than a week. :jester:
Somebody has been watching Heroes Reborn.

robpowers3d
11-21-2015, 05:47 PM
hearing the word "contruct" twice in less than a week. :jester:
Somebody has been watching heroes reborn.

lol! :)

leandropedrouzo
11-21-2015, 05:59 PM
This looks great, but (there is always a but)...
Will you be able to modify in modeler a mesh deformed by bones? I am talking about the old Corrective Morph issue. If modelling tryng to guess the result in Layout camera has a diffculty level of (let's say) 100, trying to guess what a corrective morph will look like on a posed rigged charecter would be a difficulty level of 5372.

prometheus
11-21-2015, 06:04 PM
Thanks for the post Rob! Rob are there a few other tools there that weren't shown in video? Bow Bridge and Live Smooth? And what is the node editor control doing in a modeler tool?

yes..I am curious about that too, if not some plugin I canīt find, I would suspect it is new modeling tools with things like more "live" editable power behind it, live smooth might be a subdiv smoothing tool or a polysmoothing like RT smooth? live array we just saw..bow bridge, I wonder? if not the same as aw bridge bezier, then a new tool.

I have been fiddling a bit recently with aw bridge and standard bridge, and I think there is room for enhancement on those tools, making multibridging with a bezier spline or several splines in one go, and with twist option, that would be nice...and perhaps with saving options/presets, I just heard someone working with cinema4d, and it doesnīt have any good bridge tool..so hereīs a chance to provide another tool in the competition.
But I shouldnīt put the christmas balls up yet I guess.

The showcase is nice, good work Lighwave group.

prometheus
11-21-2015, 06:17 PM
I must be blind..it says new tools, so of course implemented to lightwave, though toroid2 might be taken over from the plugin creator aw?
great to see the lattice controls.
And I missed the Marque selection..thank you, one less selection workflow I donīt have to request in the future.

Doesnīt matter if AW bezier bridge and toroid + now is a part of it as new tools, if that is the case that is..hopefully a bit more enhanced.

caustix
11-21-2015, 06:37 PM
Like It!!!

Dexter2999
11-21-2015, 06:49 PM
This looks great, but (there is always a but)...
Will you be able to modify in modeler a mesh deformed by bones? I am talking about the old Corrective Morph issue. If modelling tryng to guess the result in Layout camera has a diffculty level of (let's say) 100, trying to guess what a corrective morph will look like on a posed rigged charecter would be a difficulty level of 5372.

Isn't this the type of correction they expect you to use Chronosculpt for? They just gave it away for free.

Ztreem
11-21-2015, 06:50 PM
Looks like next version will be a massive update. Awesome work LW3DG!

prometheus
11-21-2015, 07:02 PM
Looks like next version will be a massive update. Awesome work LW3DG!


Canīt tell for sure, but the lw 2016 release seems to me to be something of the most comprehensive change/enhancements of lightwave ever, However...I guess it needs a bit more info and reveals on the unified mesh engine, model manipulation in layout, and performance in order to make a conclusion such as that.

By the way..I really like the softer piano music while doing the demo than some rock pop stuff, depends on what to showcase perhaps, I do wonder though...isnīt that the theme they used in silence of the lambs? :)
after hannibal had gone berserk on the police officers.

lightscape
11-21-2015, 07:30 PM
Since lw3d is updating modeller a bit, could you please make a native uv island selection with double click? :D
One of those very frequently used function in the uvviewport is selecting uv islands. Doable with PLG but don't think it is mac compatible now.

Greenlaw
11-21-2015, 08:59 PM
Isn't this the type of correction they expect you to use Chronosculpt for? They just gave it away for free.
I'm not sure you can do that. It might be tedious anyway: you'd have to pose the character in Layout, MDD scan it, then bring the mesh along with MDD into Chronosculpt, make your corrections at the appropriate frame, save the result, bring it back into Layout with the MDD, save the endomorph, remove the .mdd and md_reader, and then apply the endomorph correction to Joint Morph Plus. Hopefully, it's the result you expected. If not, start over.

Frankly, it's a lot easier to stay in Layout and just use SoftFX to create your corrective morphs--it takes far fewer steps.

G.

Dexter2999
11-21-2015, 09:14 PM
I'm not sure you can do that. It might be tedious anyway: you'd have to pose the character in Layout, MDD scan it, then bring the mesh along with MDD into Chronosculpt, make your corrections at the appropriate frame, save the result, bring it back into Layout with the MDD, save the endomorph, remove the .mdd and md_reader, and then apply the endomorph correction to Joint Morph Plus. Hopefully, it's the result you expected. If not, start over.

Frankly, it's a lot easier to stay in Layout and just use SoftFX to create your corrective morphs--it takes far fewer steps.

G.

Is that how it works? Because from the demo videos and the name "Chrono" and "Sculpt" it was to deform over time. So, why would you be bringing it back into layout? Wouldn't you rough in using Layout then finish in Chronosculpt? And then it isn't guesswork at all but a 1:1.

Sorry, I don't have the experience. It is just that is how the workflow looks at first glance from a novice perspective.

erikals
11-21-2015, 09:20 PM
Corrective Morph, i'm sure that's something they are looking into, but maybe not in LW2016

Modeler Camera View > Thank You!

Greenlaw
11-21-2015, 11:39 PM
Is that how it works? Because from the demo videos and the name "Chrono" and "Sculpt" it was to deform over time. So, why would you be bringing it back into layout? Wouldn't you rough in using Layout then finish in Chronosculpt? And then it isn't guesswork at all but a 1:1.

Sorry, I don't have the experience. It is just that is how the workflow looks at first glance from a novice perspective.

I think what you're talking about is editing defomation errors after the fact. Yes, Chronosculpt can let you do that but, normally, you would want to design your rig to avoid creating the deformation errors to being with.

Corrective morphs are normally done in the rigging and it's more efficient to do that with SoftFX's EditFX tool. And, you should only need to do that once, not after ever time you animate a scene as you would with the above method. Chronosculpt cannot do this (that is, add corrective morphs to a rig) without jumping through the hoops described earlier. (And I'm not even sure the process would work--I never bothered to try because it seems like too much work.)

To be clear, that's not the fault of CS--the program is not really designed to be a modeling or rigging tool; it's meant to be a post animation editor, and it works exceptionally well at that.

Now, if we had the sculpting ability of Choronsculpt inside Layout, that would be different because Chronosculpt can handle much higher res meshes more efficiently than SoftFX can. I imagine we'll see something like that that eventually. :)

G.

MAUROCOR
11-22-2015, 03:38 AM
Thank you LW3DG! Nice adition! The new modeling tools are great! ;)

erikals
11-22-2015, 03:40 AM
LiveArray... can i pick a vertex as a center point? (please)

DrStrik9
11-22-2015, 09:42 AM
LiveArray... can i pick a vertex as a center point? (please)

Dude, you are efficiency personified. :+)

Good call. I can see the advantages to this idea. Otherwise, you'd need to look up the position of one particular point and manually input it into the center position for the array.

JohnMarchant
11-22-2015, 10:15 AM
Well Chronosculpt and Nevronmotion bundled in with 2015 finally got me to stop procrastinating and update to 2015.

Looking at what LWG3D is showing us of the next release it looks great. I just hope that with the new tools they don't forget to update
the tools that already exist in modeler. Please update rounder, bevel and such to work the way we expect and give us more interactivity
in our modeling tools.

Looks like 2016 will be an awesome release and thanks to all the crew at LWG3D.

JoePoe
11-22-2015, 10:25 AM
LiveArray... can i pick a vertex as a center point? (please)

I'm sure the "Live" part is the most important part in the request.... but there is this plug for a regular array around a background pt.

https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/cp_radarray/

thekho
11-22-2015, 10:26 AM
Some new modeler tools look good! And Camera View in Modeler look awesome! Glad to hear that Modeler will be updating in the future! Keep up the hard work, newtek and thanks for a showing!

By the way, you can use Lattice tool from Toolchef website. Check it out and their all plugins are an awesome!

jwiede
11-22-2015, 11:20 AM
(Never mind.)

Rob, new post is nice, and appreciated, but for those of us still looking forward to further info on Unified{Geometry,Mesh}Engine, can you give us any sort of ETA on when that posting will arrive?

erikals
11-22-2015, 01:31 PM
Dude, you are efficiency personified. :+)
laser precision! http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/images/smiles/jedi.gif


I'm sure the "Live" part is the most important part in the request....
yes, but for a 2016 tool the alignment of the vertex to the xyz hpb is essential, imo.

cp_radarray is nice, but like coord tools it does not account for the hpb value.

(a vertex does not have a hpb value, afaik, but that can be fairly easy calculated by adding the neighbor poly normals)
(like seen in for example MG Ultimate Clone, at 1min... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOCy1svuSzk#t=1m00s)

Lewis
11-22-2015, 02:31 PM
Interesting blog post, thanks LWG3D.

erikals
11-22-2015, 02:48 PM
...zbrush radial symmetry.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj_yNCj9JgY

or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH8lhf0HWJE
Its uber useful.

yes, pretty cool, for this i sometimes go something along this route... >
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnLLx7APaw4


but yes, radial symmetry is pretty nice. hope to see it.

Snosrap
11-22-2015, 03:27 PM
Please update rounder, bevel and such to work the way we expect and give us more interactivity
in our modeling tools. It's been well documented in other threads that Rounder is a bust and we can expect no further updates or fixes with it. If you need a "Rounder" like tool the place to start is LWCad.

erikals
11-22-2015, 04:12 PM
it's a shame really, as Rounding is the tool that would speed up hard surface poly modeling enormously.

LWcad, not sure, unfortunately there is no trial version.
can it kick it like C4D... ?

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127565&d=1426882651

(notice especially the edge intersections)

---------------------------------------------

i really need to get a hold of http://erikalstad.com/cgtemp/lwcad.png test run it...

gerry_g
11-22-2015, 05:14 PM
LWCad5 has issues with corner and often leaves blank spaces rather than polygons, sure it'l get fixed at some point but right now it is is of limited use

hrgiger
11-22-2015, 05:17 PM
Concerning the new tools, glad to have a native lattice for modeling I will probably use it the most. Toroid 2, fine always nice to have interaction rather then punch in numbers and hope for the best, and array great but needs a center widget or to be able to use scene geometry like a point or poly to center on, without it, I will probably continue to use LWCAD array.

Have some crits though...

Can we please take out old tools when we put in new tools? We don't need a toroid 2, we need a toroid, end of sentence. We don't need a Julienne 2, a bandsaw pro, a weld 2.0 or even a live (insert tool name here). We need a consolidated toolset, not sequels to tools. Also, most every other modeling software out there doesn't have live tools, they just have tools. Maybe we shouldn't have to point out that some of our tools are live and some aren't.

Ztreem
11-22-2015, 06:02 PM
Can we please take out old tools when we put in new tools? We don't need a toroid 2, we need a toroid, end of sentence. We don't need a Julienne 2, a bandsaw pro, a weld 2.0 or even a live (insert tool name here). We need a consolidated toolset, not sequels to tools. Also, most every other modeling software out there doesn't have live tools, they just have tools. Maybe we shouldn't have to point out that some of our tools are live and some aren't.

+1

DrStrik9
11-22-2015, 06:19 PM
+1

This was something that really slowed me down initially learning LW: I spent months sorting through all the "old" stuff, trying to find the best ways to get the job done and identify the "latest" stuff.

Even the LW docs acknowledge this. As an example, page 499 of the LW 2015.3 pdf says: "VIPER is the preview renderer that shipped with LightWave from version 7 onwards. It is increasingly unlikely you will need to use it as VPR takes on more and more of its functionalities and improves on them. The documentation is included here as a courtesy."

A courtesy to whom?

This is only one of a large and growing number of examples where an old tool has lost its value, and has been replaced by something better. I understand that where to draw the line between old (less useful or problematic) tools and newer more capable versions could become unclear at points. So maybe the old tools could be arbitrarily housed in a "legacy" directory of some kind, and only be added to the programs by the user if specifically needed, as plugins are now.

Schwyhart
11-22-2015, 06:22 PM
Can we please take out old tools when we put in new tools? We don't need a toroid 2, we need a toroid, end of sentence. We don't need a Julienne 2, a bandsaw pro, a weld 2.0 or even a live (insert tool name here). We need a consolidated toolset, not sequels to tools. Also, most every other modeling software out there doesn't have live tools, they just have tools. Maybe we shouldn't have to point out that some of our tools are live and some aren't.

Completely agree. I know I'm not an über user and I've only just recently come back to LW, but keeping old tools that have been replaced by newer/better tools...makes it confusing.

I wonder though if they remove the old tools if it'll break Modeler and that's why they keep it in??

Ryan Roye
11-22-2015, 06:26 PM
Can we please take out old tools when we put in new tools? We don't need a toroid 2, we need a toroid, end of sentence.

Agree completely. +1

jwiede
11-22-2015, 06:46 PM
Can we please take out old tools when we put in new tools? We don't need a toroid 2, we need a toroid, end of sentence. We don't need a Julienne 2, a bandsaw pro, a weld 2.0 or even a live (insert tool name here). We need a consolidated toolset, not sequels to tools. Also, most every other modeling software out there doesn't have live tools, they just have tools. Maybe we shouldn't have to point out that some of our tools are live and some aren't.

Totally agree w.r.t. tool editing/consolidation, as well as how using classifiers like "Live tools" can bring unwanted negative attention.

Oedo 808
11-22-2015, 07:26 PM
Indeed, so long as there is full consolidation. I've seen chat that gets so carried away with the consolidation mantra that they'd have half the Modify tools abolished because you could incline Move to replicate the behaviour, which would be hideous. Though not something I think hrgiger would fall foul of and in the case of these tools I certainly agree.

As to the naming, I remember back in school being very vociferous in my NRA (a sort of CV for school leavers) in stating my punctuality when on work experience, which my teacher rightly pointed out that it highlighted how prone I was to being late for school. Ahh, the crap old days.

prometheus
11-22-2015, 07:26 PM
Agree completely. +1

I am actually a bit unsure about that, getting a toroid in place faster with standard toroid might have itīs place, though I really welcome toroid2...
just a bit unsure about it..


as a user one can quite easy just remove the old one from the menu and rename toroid2 as toroid.
I wonder though...what difference is it between toroid2 in lw 2016 VS the aw plugin? could be the same only?

Oedo 808
11-22-2015, 07:30 PM
I am actually a bit unsure about that, getting a toroid in place faster with standard toroid might have itīs place, though I really welcome toroid2


as a user one can quite easy just remove the old one from the menu and rename toroid2 as toroid.

This is why I mentioned the Modify tools, I think I've asked before for the ability going forward to have instances of a tool be assignable to separate hotkeys and to have their own activation parameters.

Also it is very good to see Modeler getting some more attention, now we have been gifted Chronosculpt maybe that too with see things like the rotation requests I've seen have some attention be paid to them, rather than "Ermagerd transform even faster" ad infinitum. Not that I begrudge efficiency, there just needs to be some sort of balance.

lightscape
11-22-2015, 07:48 PM
Like the Zbrush Radial Symmetry I posted previously in this thread, Modo has something similar though a bit limited.


https://vimeo.com/103841862

radial array is nice, radial symmetry is better.

Verlon
11-22-2015, 09:20 PM
I am with Steve and the others. Consolidate the tools.

Make the new Toroid 2 the Toroid. Then, if you want to rename the old one to Toroid_Old and leave it in a "Legacy" Bin, they can have it. Ship LW with the modern toolset and park the old stuff by the curb for those who cannot live without.

Translate plus should be integrated into translate numeric panel.
Bandsaw Pro versus Bandsaw Plain.
Sort out the whole Bevel/Extrude/Smooth Shift/Rounder mess.

Stuff like that.

Oedo 808
11-22-2015, 09:50 PM
Translate plus should be integrated into translate numeric panel.
Stuff like that.

What a horrific idea, what is the thinking behind it?

prometheus
11-22-2015, 10:05 PM
I am with Steve and the others. Consolidate the tools.

Make the new Toroid 2 the Toroid. Then, if you want to rename the old one to Toroid_Old and leave it in a "Legacy" Bin, they can have it. Ship LW with the modern toolset and park the old stuff by the curb for those who cannot live without.

Translate plus should be integrated into translate numeric panel.


Bandsaw Pro versus Bandsaw Plain.
Sort out the whole Bevel/Extrude/Smooth Shift/Rounder mess.

Stuff like that.

a bit contradictary to what I mentioned before perhaps..I agree with you too..you could of course go that way too about Toroid tools.
the toroid you click once and hit return and itīs there on the tabel...toroid2, (if it works the same as aw toroid +) you click the button, but you have to move your mouse to a drop down menu and activate it..a tiny tiny bit slower :)
a tip would be to use toroid 2 and right click twice in the viewport and it is there on the table too without going to the numeric tab and activate.

Not sure, but woulndnīt it be better if you just click toroid2 and the toroid is on the table directly, with the tool active for you too tweak if you want that?

Verlon
11-22-2015, 10:15 PM
What a horrific idea, what is the thinking behind it?

Why have two separate tools when you want all of those features and they are essentially the same tool? Just be able to select the normal of a polygon and be able to move along that instead of X, Y, and Z. Why do we need a separate tool to move along some not X/Y/Z line from the tool that does? Just select as you do with translate plus from the numeric panel of regular translate and go.

I counter by asking what is your thinking for us needing two separate tools for this? Would you prefer we have 3 or 4 separate tools instead of translate? 1 for each axis and another for "move freely?"

Oedo 808
11-22-2015, 10:27 PM
Why have two separate tools when you want all of those features and they are essentially the same tool? Just be able to select the normal of a polygon and be able to move along that instead of X, Y, and Z. Why do we need a separate tool to move along some not X/Y/Z line from the tool that does? Just select as you do with translate plus from the numeric panel of regular translate and go.

I counter by asking what is your thinking for us needing two separate tools for this? Would you prefer we have 3 or 4 separate tools instead of translate? 1 for each axis and another for "move freely?"

Of course I would, I use both Translate and Translate Plus all the time, the idea of having to pop open the numeric panel of Translate to access the latter is just idiocy, it serves no practical function other slavishly following the matra of consolidation to no benefit. In fact it's not just the absence of benefit, it's a detriment.

Further to lightscape's post, radial symmetry would be something really great, hopeful as it may be.

Regarding the sneak peek (is it really peak in the US?), I wonder if the new toroid tool handles have point snapping, Ctrl increment snapping would be ideal for not having to use the numeric panel, as would viewport x/y adjustment of the Segment/Sections, a la Rounder's viewport control, same for increasing Radial Count in the Live Array. I mean Lindsay Lohan used to make excessive use of the Numeric Panel and look what happened to her.
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=131159&d=1448257210

Verlon
11-22-2015, 10:46 PM
Of course I would, I use both Translate and Translate Plus all the time, the idea of having to pop open the numeric panel of Translate to access the latter is just idiocy, it serves no practical function other slavishly following the matra of consolidation to no benefit. In fact it's not just the absence of benefit, it's a detriment.

You're going to have to show me how you get translate plus to know what you want without using the numeric panel anyway. Mine defaults to the X axis every time and I have to select what I want even if I was just using the tool a moment ago. What is the difference between using numeric panel of Translate and numeric panel of translate plus (other than having two tools to do one tools job)? To be absolutely 100% certain, I just tested this behavior while writing this post.

I created a box and rotated it. Selected a polygon, and selected translate plus. It defaulted to X axis. I then wen to numeric and told it to move along a segment, defined that segment, and moved my polygon. I then switched tools to translate. I then switched back to translate plus and it was back on the X Axis. The only way to get what I wanted was to open the numeric panel, so I see no pain involved in moving that functionality into the numeric panel of translate.

jeric_synergy
11-22-2015, 10:49 PM
One functionality that I'd like to see added to tools, which I've been told (but not verified) is not possible, is the ability to have a script set the falloff mode of the tool. So, one button MOVE: RADIAL or MOVE: POLYGON.

As it is, the Falloff choices are extremely slow to alter because (as usual) the designer used a g.d. slow Slow SLOW menu when he should have used radio buttons. Being able to script them would alleviate this somewhat, and open the door to completely user definable falloff settings only one click away.

And, as long as Falloff is on the table, it's use should be extended to as many tools as makes sense: for several there are no Falloff options at all.

Oedo 808
11-22-2015, 11:00 PM
You're going to have to show me how you get translate plus to know what you want without using the numeric panel anyway. Mine defaults to the X axis every time and I have to select what I want even if I was just using the tool a moment ago. What is the difference between using numeric panel of Translate and numeric panel of translate plus (other than having two tools to do one tools job)? To be absolutely 100% certain, I just tested this behavior while writing this post.

I created a box and rotated it. Selected a polygon, and selected translate plus. It defaulted to X axis. I then wen to numeric and told it to move along a segment, defined that segment, and moved my polygon. I then switched tools to translate. I then switched back to translate plus and it was back on the X Axis. The only way to get what I wanted was to open the numeric panel, so I see no pain involved in moving that functionality into the numeric panel of translate.

I'm not using it right now but by the sound of it I've confused Translate Plus and Move Plus so apologies for that. However, given that especially within a 3D application Move and Translate are synonymous, would you like to see Move Plus wrapped into Translate also, or can you see a benefit of having a separation? I'll check later on the Translate/Translate Plus and speak to it then, but I might come to the same conclusion that what would be best is for consolidation but with instances of tools available with customization, that way if people want to get rid of Shear etc and have it all wrapped up into the one tool with the desired functionality to be selected through the Numeric Panel, they could have that just as they would like. Though for me that would be absurd, I've no desire to enforce a specific workflow.

jeric_synergy
11-22-2015, 11:22 PM
Oh, and besides speed: putting Falloff options into radio buttons would make them visible. Quite a few users seem to take a long time to realize that there even ARE Falloff options.

DogBoy
11-23-2015, 01:00 AM
Even the LW docs acknowledge this. As an example, page 499 of the LW 2015.3 pdf says: "VIPER is the preview renderer that shipped with LightWave from version 7 onwards. It is increasingly unlikely you will need to use it as VPR takes on more and more of its functionalities and improves on them. The documentation is included here as a courtesy."

A courtesy to whom?

The issue here is that a lot of these tools are still used, sometimes even by plugins. Take EXRTrader for example, it uses VIPER to show the channels you are exporting so you can check everything on F9


Can we please take out old tools when we put in new tools? We don't need a toroid 2, we need a toroid, end of sentence. We don't need a Julienne 2, a bandsaw pro, a weld 2.0 or even a live (insert tool name here). We need a consolidated toolset, not sequels to tools. Also, most every other modeling software out there doesn't have live tools, they just have tools. Maybe we shouldn't have to point out that some of our tools are live and some aren't.

Though I'm in the consolidation camp also, at this point i think it is superflous; if LWs future lies in Layout most of the old tools just won't make the jump. So consolidation is going to happen naturally, just not yet.

prometheus
11-23-2015, 01:58 AM
That highlight of VPR takes on more of vipers functionality, well...I would like to have it able to save hv presets...that is one thing that still annoys me we canīt do with VPR, you would have to go with viper..and doing so may cause interference patterns in vpr, or crashing.
also..I like that the viper previewer make previews with instant replay for hypervoxels ..we miss that in VPR, itīs not quite the same making and saving and replaying previews in vpr..they should enhance that as well...but well, thatīs off topic for modeling tools.

Michael

JohnMarchant
11-23-2015, 02:42 AM
Agreed out with the old and in with the new.

- - - Updated - - -


That highlight of VPR takes on more of vipers functionality, well...I would like to have it able to save hv presets...that is one thing that still annoys me we canīt do with VPR, you would have to go with viper..and doing so may cause interference patterns in vpr, or crashing.
also..I like that the viper previewer make previews with instant replay for hypervoxels ..we miss that in VPR, itīs not quite the same making and saving and replaying previews in vpr..they should enhance that as well...but well, thatīs off topic for modeling tools.

Michael

Would also like to see the right type of presets open in the shelf depending on what you are doing. Its still quirky in 2015.3.

BeeVee
11-23-2015, 06:37 AM
+1
Even the LW docs acknowledge this. As an example, page 499 of the LW 2015.3 pdf says: "VIPER is the preview renderer that shipped with LightWave from version 7 onwards. It is increasingly unlikely you will need to use it as VPR takes on more and more of its functionalities and improves on them. The documentation is included here as a courtesy."

A courtesy to whom?

As a courtesy to HyperVoxel users that want to see one particle at a time, for some of Denis Pontonnier's plugins, for some of Mike Wolf's plugins. It is still used right now, even though it is a legacy tool.

B

MAUROCOR
11-23-2015, 06:42 AM
Can we please take out old tools when we put in new tools? We don't need a toroid 2, we need a toroid, end of sentence. We don't need a Julienne 2, a bandsaw pro, a weld 2.0 or even a live (insert tool name here). We need a consolidated toolset, not sequels to tools. Also, most every other modeling software out there doesn't have live tools, they just have tools. Maybe we shouldn't have to point out that some of our tools are live and some aren't.

+1

DrStrik9
11-23-2015, 07:56 AM
As a courtesy to HyperVoxel users that want to see one particle at a time, for some of Denis Pontonnier's plugins, for some of Mike Wolf's plugins. It is still used right now, even though it is a legacy tool.

B

I get your point. This is probably a good example of why old (rarely used) tools are still hanging on.

It would be cool if there was a way to load (or not load) tools, in the same way plugins are loaded. But that's probably a bigger hairball than deciding which ones to drop. There's always someone somewhere who would complain if their old fave was suddenly missing.

Snosrap
11-23-2015, 10:48 AM
As a courtesy to HyperVoxel users that want to see one particle at a time, for some of Denis Pontonnier's plugins, for some of Mike Wolf's plugins. It is still used right now, even though it is a legacy tool.

B Yes - VIPER is indispensable for DP Filter effects and filters. Hopefully in LW 2106 "everything" will be supported in VPR.

jwiede
11-23-2015, 11:16 AM
Nobody said tool consolidation would be easy, but LW3DG is in excellent position to know what is and is not used (and/or to acquire that data, as needed). There are plenty of cases where it is already clear that some tools have been replaced by others, and LW3DG can always provide them in legacy.zip for users to re-install if needed (though adding a nice re-installer that allows individual selections, and re-adds selected into LW menus, might be worthwhile).

Simply put, if the choice is keeping every single existing tool in menu and only ever adding more, or moderate consolidation, I MUCH prefer moderate consolidation with option to re-add plugins I discover later were needed by scripts or such. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that LW's lack of adequate tool consolidation is becoming yet another factor that makes me prefer other packages over Lightwave -- I just find certain competing apps' better-organized and -optimized toolsets and UX layouts substantially boost my efficiency compared to Lightwave.

prometheus
11-23-2015, 02:04 PM
Yes - VIPER is indispensable for DP Filter effects and filters. Hopefully in LW 2106 "everything" will be supported in VPR.

yep that too, yout got predefined preview size to make a quick preview and playing back intantly without setting anything else up, I often use for checking textured environment effects too that might be animated, you just click make preview and play preview and you see it instantly..VPR requires a few more steps to make the preview going and to get it available for playback.

jeric_synergy
11-23-2015, 04:16 PM
-- I just find certain competing apps' better-organized and -optimized toolsets and UX layouts substantially boost my efficiency compared to Lightwave.
Yeah, simple organization would be A Good Thing: I believe I'm using the Studio Presets and the weird duplication and inefficiencies in the given (vs. yes altered by users) set of Mouse Menus just baffles me.

Yeah, I could (and do) change it, but why is it so weird in the first place?

Greenlaw
11-23-2015, 04:50 PM
Do you mean the Studio Production Style menus? If not, disregard this post. But if that's what you're using, you should be aware that Studio Production Style is at least 5 years old and extremely out of date--meaning tools introduced since 2011 or so are not available when using the SPS preset. IMO, LW3DG should remove it from the presets list.

AFAIK, the only preset menu that lists all the current Lightwave tools is the one called Default.

G.

paulhart
11-23-2015, 05:26 PM
I had believed and hoped that the "Studio Production Style" menu options were updated with each release, and optimized for the demands and productivity of "Studio." Just shows how naive I can be,.... DUH!! My first step has always been, new release, choose Studio Production Style option, add sub-branches for my own (LWCAD, etc.) and get back to work. I feel so stupid now. Please organize and update for the best work flow, consolidate ruthlessly, put some of the "old" plugins in a folder to be only accessed if needed, then phased out. Move on!! but please, if you include a Preset Menu, called "Studio Production Style" make sure that it is the best, most updated version!!! I feel sooooo stupid, nobody mentioned this until now??? DUH!! Somebody owes me time and knowledge back dues!! Seriously .... wandering off to sulk now .... Come on 2016 get here soon and don't forget this thread!!! and these comments.

jeric_synergy
11-23-2015, 05:36 PM
Hmmm, I surely don't want to lose all my menu buttons to see what the Mouse Menus look like in DEFAULT.

1) Are they any good? They should ENHANCE productivity, iow minimize navigation in the menus, iow should NOT be layered.
2) Can one export just a Mouse Menu >branch<? Then I could save mine, load defaults, export MMenu branches, and reload mine etc etc.

Those editors are full of low-hanging fruit. Yeahhh, it's not PBRenders, but it's something you use Every Damn Day.

I'm hoping at the very least that the editors' Search button comes up 'hot' in the next update.


Did y'all notice there's Search in EDIT PLUGINS now too? :thumbsup: Search everywhere!!! Vive la Search!

Greenlaw
11-23-2015, 05:45 PM
The easiest way to preserve your current menus is to use the Save button. This creates a complete settings file for your menus. Then, if you don't like how another preset looks, you can simply use the Load button to restore your previous settings.

If you want to save custom user branches, right-click on the menu item and use the Export Branch command. Right-clicking also pops up an Import Branch command which you can use on the menu you wish to import a branch file to. Note that the imported menu may not necessarily appear in the order you want but you can easily drag it into place in the regular Lightwave UI.

Whenever I change my menus, I save a full menu settings with a date on file. If I update one of my custom branches or tabs, I save a branch settings file as backup.

Whenever a new version of Lightwave comes out, I select Default to make sure I have the latest menus, and then import my custom branches along with any third party custom branches like LW CAD, TFD and RHiggit. Then I save a new full menu settings file.

I haven't tweaked my mouse menus (I probably should) but I'm sure the custom settings system for it is essentially the same as above.

Greenlaw
11-23-2015, 05:57 PM
I had believed and hoped that the "Studio Production Style" menu options were updated with each release...

Whoops! I may have to take that back. I know that at some point they stopped updating SPS, at least for a long while, but I just checked in 2015.3 and it does appear to have been updated for newer tools like Bullet. I haven't checked if this includes all of the newer tools though. Maybe? If I'm wrong about this, sorry for the confusion.

FWIW, when I asked about SPS missing a bunch of new tools a couple of years ago, I think it was BeeVee or Matt who told me that the Default setting will always reflect the most latest tool additions.

Hopefully BeeVee or Matt will pop in to clarify this.

G.

Verlon
11-23-2015, 06:19 PM
I'm not using it right now but by the sound of it I've confused Translate Plus and Move Plus so apologies for that. However, given that especially within a 3D application Move and Translate are synonymous, would you like to see Move Plus wrapped into Translate also, or can you see a benefit of having a separation? I'll check later on the Translate/Translate Plus and speak to it then, but I might come to the same conclusion that what would be best is for consolidation but with instances of tools available with customization, that way if people want to get rid of Shear etc and have it all wrapped up into the one tool with the desired functionality to be selected through the Numeric Panel, they could have that just as they would like. Though for me that would be absurd, I've no desire to enforce a specific workflow.

It does seem like there was some confusion there (and understandable given the naming of the tools).

To answer your question: Why couldn't we integrate all three tools?

Suppose that the current move tool got the right click feature of move plus? Now, when you select move, you have the same behavior for left click and the texture options in the move tool, but a right click moves along the polygon normals exactly like move plus. Additionally, if you open the numeric panel, instead of just X, Y, and Z, you could define a segment or normal to move along using 2 points as in Translate plus. You could define falloff.

All of this from the basic move tool, but combining all three tools into one with the best features of all of them and no increased complications compared to the regular tools.

Also, since translate plus can also rotate and scale, incorporate those functions into the rotate and scale tools also.

Now you have already opposed integrating move plus into Move, but what is it that you like about move plus other than the right click function? Wouldn't adding that feature to regular move save you switching between two tools? Maybe I do not use move plus enough to understand the difference, but it seems like it is just normal move (with no texture or falloff options) until you right click. Meanwhile, move doesn't distinguish between left and right clicks. it does the same thing either way. So it seems like the right click is open for a new function.

If I have this wrong, please do explain. To me, this is just the sort of case where combining tools makes sense.

erikals
11-23-2015, 06:32 PM
sometimes it makes sense, hence my small complaint...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88C8NYWgFuY

djwaterman
11-23-2015, 11:41 PM
I don't understand, it works just as you'd expect it to in the perspective window. Obviously it rotates in relation to the angle of view since it is perspective and not orthographic. You can always use the gizmo if you want specific rotations based on geometry.

Ztreem
11-24-2015, 01:26 AM
sometimes it makes sense, hence my small complaint...



It's not embarrassing to show this function to newbies, it's more embarrassing that you don't know how it works. It's based on view plane and is not a bug its a feature! Use the new transform Tools if you want a gizmo.

LW_Will
11-24-2015, 02:22 AM
Can we please take out old tools when we put in new tools? We don't need a toroid 2, we need a toroid, end of sentence.


Agree completely. +1

Or, could we have the advanced tools in tab by themselves?

We could have one set of shortcut keys entirely for new tools, a version for old tools, and then a hybrid.

Do that for two iterations, then boot the old and in with the new.

erikals
11-24-2015, 02:23 AM
It's based on view plane
E-x-a-c-t-l-y-! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/012.gif

ergo, Rotate/Stretch is useful for... > Nothing!

so when LW programmer David Ikeda complains about the 100% same thing, he has no idea how it works?!

hrgiger
11-24-2015, 02:52 AM
E-x-a-c-t-l-y-!

which is useful for... > Nothing!

Well in this case, its just more about understanding how it works. The fact is, Modeler almost forces you into a ortho view workflow unlike every other app. But it's not a bug, it's just how it was designed. You shouldn't be trying to show newbies or people from other apps, something that LightWave isnt' setup to do. It would be like trying to show someone how to simulate fluids in LightWave when it doesn't have that capability. View plane is useful actually, its just not for precision but not everything you model requires it. If you want more precision you have to use an ortho view and you wouldn't be trying to tell people otherwise.

To get away from a forced ortho workflow and be able to work in perspective, tool handles would be needed on all tools. But unfortunately in Modeler, they have been built into a few tools instead of being an SDK element.

erikals
11-24-2015, 03:22 AM
Rotate/Stretch in perspective view = a completely flawed workflow

Julez4001
11-24-2015, 03:42 AM
Have some crits though...

Can we please take out old tools when we put in new tools?

Should we all come together and make a robust list?

MAUROCOR
11-24-2015, 03:49 AM
Rotate/Stretch in perspective view = a completely flawed workflow

Yeah, I think you are using the wrong tool to get what you want, that is the problem. Transform tool is what you need.

Skonk
11-24-2015, 04:08 AM
Using rotate, move, scale etc in the perspective view is great for some very specific cases where you need to manipulate an object that is at an odd angle AND where you don't need precision (or if you actually want to add some inperfection, I've use it to rotate objects after pasting them to add a bit of randomness for example).

For all other times it's better to use the ortho views or the transform tool (and admittedly I find myself forgetting about the transform tool a lot of the time).

Could it be handled better? yes ofcourse, but it's working as intended in terms of design and is useful sometimes.

What IS odd, is how holding down the CTRL key and using the Move tool constrains the movement to a particular world axis (x, y or z) but holding down CTRL when using stretch, constrains it based on the view plane.

erikals
11-24-2015, 04:30 AM
Yeah, I think you are using the wrong tool to get what you want, that is the problem. Transform tool is what you need.

no, the problem is how it works. the tools combined with the workflow is the problem.

problem 1 is, people have gotten so used to the workflow, they don't mind it.

MAUROCOR
11-24-2015, 04:54 AM
no, the problem is how it works. the tools combined with the workflow is the problem.

problem 1 is, people have gotten so used to the workflow, they don't mind it.

Your statement is based on the way other softwares work. May it works better for you. Because if you want to do what you say you want, just change your tool to TRANSFORM tool. Simple like that. Why so much drama about it?

lightscape
11-24-2015, 05:07 AM
sometimes it makes sense, hence my small complaint...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88C8NYWgFuY


This is what separates modellers to non-modellers :D

Ryan Roye
11-24-2015, 06:30 AM
sometimes it makes sense, hence my small complaint...

I disagree, but not entirely. All of the tools when used in perspective mode are relative to the coordinate mode set at the bottom of the UI... the most useful to use in my opinion being mouse coordinates. The only thing I feel could be done better is rotation control. The LWBrush "translate" tool (which has its own methods for moving, rotating, scaling, etc) allows the user to rotate the object just like they do in Lightwave layout without orthographic viewports. This is helpful to have in modeler native, but the way its implemented now is pretty clumsy... by this I mean everything should be contained in a single tool instead of spread out in multiple.

hrgiger
11-24-2015, 06:44 AM
The point is though that rotate in perspective is not broken, its not a bug, it was just never designed to allow for per axis rotation in that view. Hence the need for the transform tool.

Lewis
11-24-2015, 06:49 AM
The point is though that rotate in perspective is not broken, its not a bug, it was just never designed to allow for per axis rotation in that view. Hence the need for the transform tool.

True, but then again we don't need 2 tools for moving/scaling/rotating... 1 translate tool would be enough if we could use shortcut to deactivate/hide gizmo and then it would work "loose" on mouse click/view as is now and on shortcut key/gizmo activation we would have precise way as with translate tool gizmo.

hrgiger
11-24-2015, 06:56 AM
True on that as well Lewis but we already know that LW3DG is not exactly keen on consolidating tools. Thats why we are now getting toroid 2.

erikals
11-24-2015, 10:19 AM
True, but then again we don't need 2 tools for moving/scaling/rotating... 1 translate tool would be enough if we could use shortcut to deactivate/hide gizmo and then it would work "loose" on mouse click/view as is now and on shortcut key/gizmo activation we would have precise way as with translate tool gizmo.

yep, this is somewhat i'm trying to explain, with so-so luck...

i like both the classic way of doing it (t-y-h) and the transform tool
but the classic (y-h) is useless in perspective view, and i shouldn't have to switch a tool to fix it.

Verlon
11-24-2015, 03:53 PM
I generally prefer t-y-h, but agree on their weakness in the perspective window.
Maybe have any of those tools activate the gizmos in the perspective and in that window, only the gizmos do the job?

Maybe we should get together and start suggesting how to consolidate /improve tools in modeler.

erikals
11-24-2015, 04:08 PM
I generally prefer t-y-h, but agree on their weakness in the perspective window.
Maybe have any of those tools activate the gizmos in the perspective and in that window, only the gizmos do the job?

agree, one of the things i'm suggesting in the video on the previous page
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?148922-RE-New-Blog-Post-With-A-Sneak-Peak-Video-Showing-Modeling-Enhancements&p=1456608&viewfull=1#post1456608

robertoortiz
11-24-2015, 10:05 PM
Question..
Since we can now communicate to Layout using this special camera in modeller, how about adding some timeline based key-able parameters to some of the newer modeling tools? This could be a control could be deactivated if the "special camera" is not activated. This soft of stuff would be very handy in animation.

DogBoy
11-25-2015, 02:56 AM
Question..
Since we can now communicate to Layout using this special camera in modeller, how about adding some timeline based key-able parameters to some of the newer modeling tools? This could be a control could be deactivated if the "special camera" is not activated. This soft of stuff would be very handy in animation.

I doubt it is possible because Modeller has no idea of time. Just because it can see where the camera is doesn't mean it knows when the camera is there.

jwiede
11-25-2015, 12:10 PM
Well in this case, its just more about understanding how it works. The fact is, Modeler almost forces you into a ortho view workflow unlike every other app. But it's not a bug, it's just how it was designed. You shouldn't be trying to show newbies or people from other apps, something that LightWave isnt' setup to do.

So, just to be clear, you are acknowledging that Modeler is weaker at precision, detail modeling in perspective view compared to (gizmo-equipped) competitors? I only ask because when this issue was brought up in the past, it was hotly contested that Modeler had any such weakness.

hrgiger
11-25-2015, 12:24 PM
So, just to be clear, you are acknowledging that Modeler is weaker at precision, detail modeling in perspective view compared to (gizmo-equipped) competitors? I only ask because when this issue was brought up in the past, it was hotly contested that Modeler had any such weakness.

I think this may be the second time recently John you've suggested I'm saying something contrary to a former position I've stated. If such a position were contested, it certainly wasn't by me unless it was 15 years ago when I first started with LW where I didn't know my subd from a hole in the ground. Ive posted ad nauseum of the need for tool handles in all tools and If I felt any differently, I wouldn't be such a huge advocate for LWCAD which allows for infinitely more precision then modeler ever will.

gerry_g
11-25-2015, 02:06 PM
I always model in 3D space in LW and am very comfortable doing so, lack of precision is more to do with LW's insistence on being at zero x,y,z and the worsening ability to zoom in the further you move away from it, that combined with the abysmal behaviour of the numerics panels that constantly reset their values and have no continuity, as to widgets mostly I hate them but find them useful in some instances, a button on the bezel to show/hide would work better than a hotkey much the way hexagon does it, and as to LW Cad being a saviour, not every tool is that great, rounder in LW Cad is far worse than the real Rounder in many instances and uses none of the LW selection commands natively

hrgiger
11-25-2015, 02:23 PM
and as to LW Cad being a saviour, not every tool is that great, rounder in LW Cad is far worse than the real Rounder in many instances and uses none of the LW selection commands natively

The new Round in LWCAD 5 is just that, new(being rewritten of course to work with Nurbs surfaces), and is being refined, a few of the issues have already been fixed in the next beta. Also, Viktor intends to create smart selection from LW selection. Pointing to a single tool in a plugin that has close to 100 doesn't really nullify the fact that LWCAD is chock full of functions which assist in precision modeling which was my point. I never used the word Savior myself but IMO, modeler without LWCAD is a bit...lacking.

gerry_g
11-25-2015, 05:22 PM
point taken, many features are indispensable in Victors suit of tools and have no LW equivalent, am sure the nurbs thing is giving him bit of a headache right now

hrgiger
11-25-2015, 07:17 PM
It is complex for sure. He said the math is, well, not a party.

erikals
11-25-2015, 07:23 PM
this is what i'm thinking as well, as for a rounder tool, i think the math behind it is quite complex, in order to get it right.

hence no update to LW Rounder, and troublesome LWCad Rounder ...

Thomas Leitner
11-26-2015, 03:12 AM
.... Just pointing out that ultimately it's all a construct which is giving us the representation of a camera.

Hi,
one thing to improve the "construct" even more:

It would be great if LW3D Group adds the posibility to zoom in the Layout Camera view in Modeler. If you ever tried to match 3D with real footage, you know that you often need very, very small corrections of your modells.

ciao
Thomas

spherical
11-26-2015, 03:46 AM
Well, until that comes to pass, you could clone the camera and set a narrower FOV for the fine adjustments in it and change back to the overall FOV for normal work.

Thomas Leitner
11-27-2015, 12:41 AM
Well, until that comes to pass, you could clone the camera and set a narrower FOV for the fine adjustments in it and change back to the overall FOV for normal work.
The problem is that you cannot zoom into the BG image to match. If you change the FOV of the camera the BG image doesnīt change. David Ridlen (Mr. Rid) showed us a methode to do this in layout (maybe we can use this also for preview in modeler) in this thread:
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?94121-Matchmoving-in-Lightwave

He uses it here for matchmoving, but it works of course also for modeling.
But I asked for a clean implementation.

ciao
Thomas

ianr
11-27-2015, 05:00 AM
Hi,
one thing to improve the "construct" even more:

It would be great if LW3D Group adds the posibility to zoom in the Layout Camera view in Modeler. If you ever tried to match 3D with real footage, you know that you often need very, very small corrections of your modells.

ciao
Thomas

Thomas Is Absolutely Right, I hope the next MODELER CAMERA reveal will

be updated with Zoom Toggle. We need an Inspecting Camera and hopefully

a transformer model being point level tweaked. I would like to think that dirty

reveal was W.I.P.