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c.1
11-13-2015, 07:02 PM
.........I am at a loss for words.

Cageman
11-14-2015, 02:38 PM
:( Me too... I wonder where this will end... :(

prometheus
11-14-2015, 03:55 PM
:( Me too... I wonder where this will end... :(

It will probably get even worse before it gets better.

now these things happens all over the world ..but hitting europe makes it more unusual and focus in media, I hope it ends in other countries as well.
for that..they have to stop whatīs going on in syria and surrounding areas...I hope they pull as much men power and intelligence strategy to work..500% more if possible than before..I have been confused over why
they havenīt made the step to enter with more elite forces on the ground rather than bombing away...If one look at the second world war..such raids with men power on the ground where crucial.
Now..of course..it isnīt a direct war, itīs a different kind of war..but I believe those principles to me just as valid to control land area by raids on the ground, the bombings seem to havenīt worked as planned...it seems now they
are about to change the tactics and enter with more forces on the ground.

Im a bit puzzled how the IS still can carry on, if you compare men power and how many they are..compared to what the allied forces was up against in the second world war.

Shouldnīt go in to this too deep..it will end up in political discussion out of forums rules I reckon.

Vive la France..for those affected or living in france, our thoughts are with you.

those terrorist is burying themself..and they are idiots for thinking they will gain Anything from this, it will only lead to more determination from the world community to allianate that group, what else? and it will be so..itīs just a matter of time and a lot of blood in between..but the outcome will be certain.

Cageman
11-14-2015, 04:25 PM
Money....

It is ALL about money these days... One of the main problems is that US have helped arm the rebellion faction in Syria... at that time it was a good idea, because Assad is not an angel... far from it... What US did not forsee was that a lot of those rebells later on joined ISIS, or IS for short.

Fast foward...

ISIS now have a lot of US made weapons (US will deny this no matter what), and there is no oil or any other resource to benefit from going full strike. On top of that, ISIS warriors are quite capable... going in with ground soldiers will result in losses.

A single bomb that US use costs a fortune... but the risk is low.

The number of men needed will be an order of magnitude more expensive, and, on top of that, very high risk.

Add to that that US is not in an emediate danger of being invaded by these people...

Most countries in EU have spent a lot of resources on non-millitary things (as in degrading their millitary organisations), so EU as a whole, doesn't have an army.

Let me say this... if money wasn't a concern, ISIS would have allready been vaporized.

prometheus
11-14-2015, 04:38 PM
Money....

It is ALL about money these days... One of the main problems is that US have helped arm the rebellion faction in Syria... at that time it was a good idea, because Assad is not an angel... far from it... What US did not forsee was that a lot of those rebells later on joined ISIS, or IS for short.

Fast foward...

ISIS now have a lot of US made weapons (US will deny this no matter what), and there is no oil or any other resource to benefit from going full strike. On top of that, ISIS warriors are quite capable... going in with ground soldiers will result in losses.

A single bomb that US use costs a fortune... but the risk is low.

The number of men needed will be an order of magnitude more expensive, and, on top of that, very high risk.

Add to that that US is not in an emediate danger of being invaded by these people...

Most countries in EU have spent a lot of resources on non-millitary things (as in degrading their millitary organisations), so EU as a whole, doesn't have an army.

Let me say this... if money wasn't a concern, ISIS would have allready been vaporized.

I agree to what all you said there is correct...from my point of view anyway, it makes me think a bit like..what if IS recognizes this, and do not attack Usa on itīs soil, and focus more on europe...because if a terror attack agains usa in a very large magnitude would occour, that would have the outcome of more resources, money for the military and more aggressive attacks to end it..like in iraq, I would think they are careful about doing a full raid against usa at this moment, until they feel they are stronger...the other way around migth seal their fate really..so thatīs just my thoughts about it.

djwaterman
11-14-2015, 05:35 PM
I think we are going to find that despite the posturing and the "we support you" platitudes, if the French do decide to do anything drastic, that support will dissolve. Just as all the "we are Charlie" stuff was meaningless since media worldwide refused to print any of the offending cartoons. Since then Charlie Hebdo has stated they will no longer be drawing Mohamed, proving that terrorism works and is effective in changing the way we live. When the government tells you to just continue living your life and not let it change you, that is demonstrably impossible. If a group of gunmen invade your place of work are you just going to continue on as normal? The Muslim vote has become important in most western countries, so politicians go out of their way not to connect Islam to any of this. When 9/11 happened, the suburb I was living in at the time had a massive street party, it wasn't reported in the press, but that woke me up pretty quick. There is a problem that is easily identified, but our leaders go out of their way to not see it, and if you don't see the problem it will never be solved. Perhaps it will burn itself out over the next 2000 years, but how much damage in the meantime. Ultimately this is depressing and there is no good news in any of it. Flowers and vigils don't help.

RebelHill
11-14-2015, 06:17 PM
Let me say this... if money wasn't a concern, ISIS would have allready been vaporized.

Money shmoney... its balls that are lacking. US navy could happily afford test firing an unarmed trident over california last week... just plop a live one on raqqa and things WILL be vaporised.

Or, yknow... take a lil nap while the israelis do it.

probiner
11-14-2015, 07:19 PM
http://i.snag.gy/0er8p.jpg

And we never get good reports or updates on the investigations back from these... Lets hope people on the case don't kill themselves like before (http://www.globalresearch.ca/police-commissioner-involved-in-charlie-hebdo-investigation-commits-suicide-total-news-blackout/5424149)
At least this time, we know it were not men with box cutters and jet fuel...
I'm sure the french bombings, put forward since September, will carry on, against who knows who, in the sovereign nation of Syria... http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/27/middleeast/syria-france-isis-bombing/

erikals
11-15-2015, 03:52 AM
i don't think these situations will decline before we get out of countries that self-destruct.

the problem is, our "help" in these countries do not help.

change strategy, or leave it alone.

------------

we can't eliminate these situations, but there are ways to decrease them.

------------


One of the main problems is that US have helped arm the rebellion faction in Syria... at that time it was a good idea, because Assad is not an angel... far from it... What US did not foresee was that a lot of those rebels later on joined ISIS, or IS for short.
it's not the first time this happens to a group the US decides to help, one could wonder, do the political / military leaders in the US ever learn from history? or do they want wars happening in order to keep their military budgets.

------------

nice movie by the way... - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POaM3wixn1k#t=116m00s

c.1
11-15-2015, 10:11 AM
Will anyone learn from history? It is as if "The Crusades" never stopped. The reasons change (religion, politics, oil, money, power all very interchangeable) and the powershifts back and forth but the end result is always the same, lots of innocent people die on both sides.

RebelHill
11-15-2015, 12:11 PM
Or... its as if the greco-persian wars never ended... or as though Alexander's push to conquest never ended... or, or, or...

The only thing history teaches is what will happen given a particular set of circumstances. And given the circumstance that people have wants or desires, they will always "quest" to achieve them. That will never end until "want" ends. Given that 2 different people(s) have conflicting desires, or equal desire upon a limited and finite thing... competition and conflict will always occur. That will never end until people stop wanting different things, and/or until there is an infinite supply of a commonly sought resource.

History also teaches that this competition and conflict need not be a bad nor bloody thing, that it can be conducted peacefully (with sportsmanship if you will)... but also that that "system" only ever succeeds when the different players share a sense of familiarity with one another, a sense of "neighborliness", and that itself can only emerge if all participants hold it for all others, no amount of being friendly by one actor compels or commits others to the same. If any one side doesnt want to join in at that level, the system will fail, and further, if at any point one player decides to "cheat", the system will once again fail.

These are just the facts of how competition and co-operation must play out in a world that is darwinian in nature, and populated with limited and finite resources.

erikals
11-15-2015, 12:29 PM
war won't end, however, it can be minimized with the right strategies.

peaceful acts also goes hand in hand with social intelligence. (though with exceptions)

it's "just" math.



maybe we need a superman, a guy that can "crack" the code. a guy that can make a "super peace flowchart"

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XXvUuTWoBUIeDBEb1WYeSTAX4KT4lF70RbqmH9oVESwXnpZ2GK 8thX4Y1-f_bdu4yeqE=s121

prometheus
11-15-2015, 01:52 PM
war won't end, however, it can be minimized with the right strategies.

peaceful acts also goes hand in hand with social intelligence. (though with exceptions)

it's "just" math.



maybe we need a superman, a guy that can "crack" the code. a guy that can make a "super peace flowchart"

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XXvUuTWoBUIeDBEb1WYeSTAX4KT4lF70RbqmH9oVESwXnpZ2GK 8thX4Y1-f_bdu4yeqE=s121

there are folks ..brilliant minds whoīs ideas need implementing, thereīs a problem with terrorists doing everything they can preventing such ideas, feels a bit like ..how to get to the cocomilk without drilling a hole or cracking the coconut shell.

Then again, thoughts from these minds might just as well be the code cracker, but we can not see it since it is most likely such changes based on those ideas will take a lot of time for taking effect, might take decades, or even centuries..finding a super hero cracking the code with one element that takes effect after midnight new years eve, donīt believe in that..well maybe a nuke could do something..but I wouldnīt recommend that...thatīs not what I would like to see.

neither Ghandi, Dalai Lama, Nelson Mandela or nobel piece prize winners will provide the answer to solve it in short terms..and we will only know when the future has arrived.. what the "cure" eventually will be.
http://www.cartercenter.org/index.html

I reckon it will be a battle on all fronts, military actions, fight poverty, implement democracy, human rights, ending of religious extremists... if the world got this "cancer" it needs to be attacked in all possible ways..and analysed in terms of which actions are making good progress..and it is a progress that takes time to evaluate..sadly everyonce and a while, the cancer will pop up and destroy lifes...The more folks around the world working for stopping the cancer, the better our odds are against the cancer.

I refer to it as that "disease" because I believe it is just that, an illusion disease that attacks the brain of men and women, with the tragic outcome that they resort to terrorism.
I would believe that one focus is to stopping the connections and input to whatever it is that makes this cancer grows...simply strangle the flow and let the cancer die out...elliminate whatever it is feeding it.

probiner
11-15-2015, 01:53 PM
"Might is Right", "Sportsmanship", are certainly colonial concepts...

If a country has precious finite resources and you go MI6 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh) on it because you want to own them, what you do you expect back? The only ones with strenght to push back those poisonous forces are not the ones you would usually trade with. So... Respect their sovereignty, don't invade, don't fuel war (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/04/08/saudis-air-refueling-yemen-uae-houthis/25468119/), don't meddle with their internal affairs. Instead trade with them if you want to deal with trading peaceful people...

Embargos, sanctions, blockades, no-fly zones, all acts of war that precisely attack trade, prosperity and peace.

H_Molla
11-15-2015, 02:30 PM
Me & my small family are so sad for what happened at Paris, We have been there last August & we did really enjoy each minute of our trip & the hospitality of the french people can't be translated into word's.
I just want to tell something, Islam did not ask us to kill or even abuse any human kind by a simple thing like word under any religion.
Those terrorist is representing a malignant cell, I can't even say they are devil...cause devil sometimes have mercy towards humans.

We do pray for all the victims & wish Alah to insert them with all the good companions at God's Heaven..
AMEN...

glebe digital
11-15-2015, 03:58 PM
And France has now dropped 20 bombs on Raqqa, with who knows what collateral damage......deeply deeply upsetting.

c.1
11-15-2015, 05:23 PM
"Or... its as if the greco-persian wars never ended... or as though Alexander's push to conquest never ended... or, or, or..."
So very true!
You could go back to when the first caveman clubbed the other caveman on the head so he could take over his cave.
It brings to mind the Tool song "Right in Two"
"... monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground, silly monkeys give them thumbs they make a club and beat their brother down....."

prometheus
11-15-2015, 05:56 PM
One thing makes me curious and confused, not really sure since I donīt use that much of social media, but responsible people behind facebook, twitter, youtube etc..I canīt understand how extremist can be allowed to
have their freedom of speech running on such sites, is it freedoom of speech to allow for extremists encouriging killing? to me it seems like a crime provoking act, and as such not in the framework with anything related to freedom of speech.

So..what is preventing Facebook and youtube owners from shutting down these terrorist endorsing terrorsist acts?

c.1
11-15-2015, 08:01 PM
" I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Evely Beatrice Hall
Free speech is free speech there are no half measures.
It is such a paradox, we must allow free speech but at the same time we cannot allow free speech, who decides where the line is drawn? And from which faction ? We all see things from a vastly different paradigm.

prometheus
11-15-2015, 08:19 PM
" I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Evely Beatrice Hall
Free speech is free speech there are no half measures.
It is such a paradox, we must allow free speech but at the same time we cannot allow free speech, who decides where the line is drawn? And from which faction ? We all see things from a vastly different paradigm.

letīs hope though no forum moderators jumps in and censors this :) though we have our rules.
There are some exceptions in laws of free speech, at least over here in sweden, preventing from racism, and you are commiting crime if you invite people to commit crime...well maybe that is it..you may say whatever you want but you will also face prosecution for instigating violent actions etc, but it doesnīt mean the law can stop the initial offending speech in a newspaper for onstance...the question is if one can and if one should stop such dubious invites/instigations.
personally I think there should be laws preventing instigations to be excluded from being a part of free speech..same goes with net hatred, I believe there already are some exceptions...and probably more will come, but indeed it is a paradox problem, not balanced both ways, then humanity will suffer.

Think this discussion also relates back to the previous attacks on the charlie hebdo....Free speech? we have a problem.

A funny thing..the swedish king isnīt allowed to have free speech..not politicly...then again he is compensated by being immune to prosecutions, so he can kill and get away with it...but heīs a nice guy and no one expect him to, so no fuzz there :)

I think I smell censorship soon in this thread :)

c.1
11-15-2015, 08:44 PM
The community in this forum is a fine example of how so many people from so many different countries and cultures can converge and interact in a respectful (and for the most part) unregulated (moderated) manner to discuss a common interest. With some additional topics being introduced every now and then to keep things interesting.
Plus, and I am just gonna say it, you people are just [email protected]@king smart, I am truly humbled by the vast knowledge (and willingness to share it) here!

50one
11-16-2015, 01:35 AM
You reap what you saw.

It's always the innocent people that got killed - on both sides. dropping more bombs won't help - it will only give the ISIL more "See! they're bad! We told ya!"

On a sidenote every month in Iraq the number of civilians killed in attacks reaches almost 1k, yet there's almost no coverage of that in the media? What's the difference between people lives in middle east and of those in Europe/US?

I would love to see one day most of the western politician thrown into jail fro the crimes they've committed - pointless invasion(Iraq / Libya, Afghanistan) / crimes against humanity / sponsoring Terrorists (ISIL, AK) / selling weapons to Saudi Arabia / immigration fiasco






So..what is preventing Facebook and youtube owners from shutting down these terrorist endorsing terrorsist acts?

How do you define a terrorist? Is it just guys with beard from middle east twitter/FB/Yt account should be switched off?

BeeVee
11-16-2015, 02:07 AM
Two things that concern me about the aftermath of this horrendous thing:

1. That western governments will use it as an excuse to push ever-more stringent surveillance measures onto people, nominally to catch terrorists, something surveillance hasn't proved itself good at to date...
2. That racism will provoke a continuing cycle - ISIS: "They are attacking muslims, we must fight back!" Europe: "They are attacking Europeans, we must fight back!" ad infinitum.

I also read an interesting thing, that the bomber at the Stade de France from prevented from entering, and blowing up a lot of people, by a security guard called Zouheir, presumably himself a muslim.

B

OnlineRender
11-16-2015, 02:50 AM
Two things that concern me about the aftermath of this horrendous thing:

1. That western governments will use it as an excuse to push ever-more stringent surveillance measures onto people, nominally to catch terrorists, something surveillance hasn't proved itself good at to date...

B

in the words of David Icke , problem , reaction , solution ...

50one
11-16-2015, 03:14 AM
I would like to know one thing, it really bothers me, well actually two things:
What the F they use to make passports in the middle east? Like you know, everything melted in WTC attacks even steel - yet they've found the passport in this rubble? Asbestos in titanium cover?

Why is it so important that you proceed with the Operating Procedure with your passport on you?
If I were going on a shooting spree, taking any documents with me would be the last thing I would do.

To me it sends a message of "see, we got here with the refugees, there's more like us waiting in the dark..."





in the words of David Icke , problem , reaction , solution ...

Funny you mention David Icke - a footballer turned new age guru. Just reading a book about the de-industrialization and David is mentioned there.
Some of the stuff he says make sense, but being a part of " blame projection onto evil lizard behind a scenes" is not really doing him good.

Kaptive
11-16-2015, 04:08 AM
I would like to know one thing, it really bothers me, well actually two things:
What the F they use to make passports in the middle east? Like you know, everything melted in WTC attacks even steel - yet they've found the passport in this rubble? Asbestos in titanium cover?

Why is it so important that you proceed with the Operating Procedure with your passport on you?
If I were going on a shooting spree, taking any documents with me would be the last thing I would do.

To me it sends a message of "see, we got here with the refugees, there's more like us waiting in the dark..."






Funny you mention David Icke - a footballer turned new age guru. Just reading a book about the de-industrialization and David is mentioned there.
Some of the stuff he says make sense, but being a part of " blame projection onto evil lizard behind a scenes" is not really doing him good.

Regarding the passport and your general feelings on the matter, they are my sentiments exactly. Awful convienient.

Whoever is ultimately behind this event (and any which involve violence) couldn't give a flying monkey about us... and when I say "us", I mean everyone who isn't extremely rich, powerful or of a small groups particular twisted belief system. They are all very good at faking shock... outrage... sadness though. We're just stuck in the middle and used as political punch bags for the various agendas at play. The worst agenda being the "increasing of security". As the old saying goes, security and control are very much interchangable. Who really benefits from events such as these? Even if the powers that be didn't perpetrate the events, they sure as hell don't mind it happening if it suits an agenda.

I gave into fear once... never again. I choose to have hope.

Anyway, this is all getting a bit heavy for LW forum for me. Though I'm glad they haven't shut this thread down... but I'd understand if they did. Probably not the place. But then again, we're artists, and we're the ones who are meant to be the balancing force to the power brokers. Sadly these days, we're corporate monkeys because we are left little choice in order to survive.

RebelHill
11-16-2015, 04:46 AM
How do you define a terrorist?

You send in the boys... Anyone who runs, is a terrorist. Anyone who stands still, is a well disciplined terrorist.

50one
11-16-2015, 05:11 AM
Sad times we're living in and the outlook is not looking good either.

Not-so-fun fact number #1 - based on the previous collapses of civilizations and the energy consumption / fuel depletion - your grand-grand children won't be able to read or write - and that's not taking any global conflicts into consideration.

MarcusM
11-16-2015, 06:11 AM
From my point of view just for your information. I can't imagine to happen this in Poland. I live in 400k city and maybe two times a month i can see a black person on street. Propably students. But this is not the point and not a problem. Muslim in traditional clothes i saw maybe three time in all my life in my city. And i have 20km to German border. People and government become more and more right wing when watching what happening in neighbour countries... :(
EDL facebook page have 240k likes, polish eqivalent ndie.pl have 260k.

dickbill
11-16-2015, 10:09 AM
@glebedigital, I'm French and I am thinking exactly the same thing.
it's a bone for the French public : "see, we're doing something, we are tough guys".

What the French public is demanding is to stop massive immigration. What the French Elite in power is doing, is exactly the opposite.
'Homemade terrorism' is what's to be feared and there is plenty of potential with so many Muslims in France. But no mater, the French elite keeps pushing for more immigrants, illiterate, unemployable with no perspective for jobs.
The French elite is now saying that racist French people prevent young Muslims to find jobs, which cause them to self radicalize and become homemade terrorists.
But there is no jobs in France, unemployment rate is stellar high.
Where are the jobs of the manufacturing industry that could employ these 'low skilled' people ?
Oversea
Who pushed to outsource theses jobs oversea?
The French Elite

Just remember that Laurent Fabius, French Foreign minister, just a few month ago, was advocating to support 'moderate terrorist' groups to remove Assad from power. So he let young French radicalized Muslims join these 'moderate' groups. Previously, during the contaminated blood disaster that infected thousands of hemophilic people with AIDs, Fabius proclaimed himself responsible but never guilty whenever the s' hits the fan. Well, once again the s' hits the fan and innocent people pay for Fabius mistakes.
Oh and don't forget Jacque Attali, who suggested that 60 millions immigrants come in Europe in the next 50 years, to relieve the defective European birth rate and aging population.
Oh, who pushed to use abortion as a contraceptive for birth control for European women ?
Simone Weill
etc. ad vitam vomittum.
No matter where you look, the French Elite holds a huge responsibility in these terrorist attacks.


And, by the way, on CNN news, Saturday Morning, two French emblematic figures of this Elite were being interviewed: Bernard Henry Levy (he was the one who got the idea to use the famous picture of the dead little boy on the Turkish beach) and Alain Bauer, Free Masson in chief of the French loge. To resume basically the view these two gave: let the refuges come by the millions in Europe, but bomb Al Assad more, please.
So nothing's going to change anytime soon.

prometheus
11-16-2015, 10:24 AM
You reap what you saw.

It's always the innocent people that got killed - on both sides. dropping more bombs won't help - it will only give the ISIL more "See! they're bad! We told ya!"

On a sidenote every month in Iraq the number of civilians killed in attacks reaches almost 1k, yet there's almost no coverage of that in the media? What's the difference between people lives in middle east and of those in Europe/US?

I would love to see one day most of the western politician thrown into jail fro the crimes they've committed - pointless invasion(Iraq / Libya, Afghanistan) / crimes against humanity / sponsoring Terrorists (ISIL, AK) / selling weapons to Saudi Arabia / immigration fiasco


Bombings or even Correct wars (how bizzare) war is a form of terrorism, I think IS and al quaid thinks that too, and donīt give a damn about civil causulities, it happens in war anyway..a lot of civilian will be sacrificed, though you could argue that accepted states and nations are foremost trying to reduce those causulties, then there are moments in time when lines might be crossed a lot in that retrospect...even from accepted states and nations.


How do you define a terrorist? Is it just guys with beard from middle east twitter/FB/Yt account should be switched off?


Me..haha..that is the right person to ask, I would say all those who post strange questions on these forums:D

Now..itīs of no big concern on how I define it..I think, the world community has better definiton of it..and I think my definition is close to it..with exception from above stated definition.

I think I can see some read between the lines thoughts in your question though...personally and I think the world community thinks the same, it has nothing to do with color or race, you can be black, christtian, muslim or ateist..but presenting
criminal propagande whery you instigate people to join and go on killing crusade for christianity, ateism, or islam, that is extremistic instigation with the purpose to harm.
I can see a problem with that you can not define one as terrorist if the one utters bad opinions about another religion or the western worl, they can say ...you are all infidels (thatīs ok in my opinion)...but adding together that you will all die in holy jihad, or for the sake of jesus..then that is less of a problem to define what could be a potential terrorist.

But there are probably more variables..like defining which connections the user has, directly connected to IS or al quaida etc? those are the things central intelligence and nsa may need to verify...so unless very appearant, owners of facebook etc..might need very good grounds before shutting down.

I consider Anders Breivik a terrorist, so does most of the world community and he is convicted for it..even though he might have acted alone, his deeds are political and based on racism...8 were killed in the bombing in oslo, and he then went on to shoot 69 people on that island..and he was as nordic as they come I would say...at that time no beard I think..blue eyes and blond hair.

Bombings and war is terrorism by itself, though more accepted when accepted states and nations does it, under the notion they are trying to minimize the amount of civil casualties...there are however times and has been in history when a nation crosses the line a lot, I think IS an al qaida doesnīt care about civil causualties..itīs a war, and they now the history.

I am generally a pacifist close to the teaching of ghandi and dalai lama, but I have to admit, in some moments in history..violent acts to defend freedom and way of life.. is sadly a neccessary thing.

what happens after a war or invasion..extremly importand and is the domino brick setting all other events in motion in the future, look at the first world war and how humiliating the defeat was for germany, and the surrender terms wasnīt nice.
in iraq..they didnīt help the iraq people taking control in a proper way....and from that we can see what? if you destroy a system..make sure another system works better...or that system might survive crippled and becoming even worse.

Personal thinking..I donīt see any middle ground, you either destroy a system completly without restrictions and no remaining survival of that "cancer" or you transform that system properly by helping it to do so with lots of effort and knowledge how to.

dickbill
11-16-2015, 11:46 AM
You can't compare the action of a lunatic like Breivik with what's going on here. Breivik may have been a social outcast on rampage, like we have here in the US with all these psychos.

May I remind people that it is the 6th terrorist attack in France related to Islamic extremism in the last year ?
Remember the Thallys train, where that American guy stopped a French Muslim terrorist in the wagon? there could have been dozen of killed easily there. Charlie Hebbo, attacked by...homebred French Muslim terrorists at least in part, and a few other stories like that including a decapitation on French soil, each time it was a homebred terrorist individual or group who did it. Infiltrated Extremists from the Middle East are actually an exception in these attacks.
But now that they can come, that's gonna change of course. We gonna have both.
Liberal Scandinavians, like all liberals, don't want to face the inconvenient truth.

Kuzey
11-16-2015, 02:22 PM
You can't compare the action of a lunatic like Breivik with what's going on here. Breivik may have been a social outcast on rampage, like we have here in the US with all these psychos.

May I remind people that it is the 6th terrorist attack in France related to Islamic extremism in the last year ?
Remember the Thallys train, where that American guy stopped a French Muslim terrorist in the wagon? there could have been dozen of killed easily there. Charlie Hebbo, attacked by...homebred French Muslim terrorists at least in part, and a few other stories like that including a decapitation on French soil, each time it was a homebred terrorist individual or group who did it. Infiltrated Extremists from the Middle East are actually an exception in these attacks.
But now that they can come, that's gonna change of course. We gonna have both.
Liberal Scandinavians, like all liberals, don't want to face the inconvenient truth.

Funny that, when they're white, they're lunatics & psychos but when they're not...it's religion!

How convenient.

SBowie
11-16-2015, 02:47 PM
Anyway, this is all getting a bit heavy for LW forum for me. Though I'm glad they haven't shut this thread down... but I'd understand if they did.Ideally, an exchange of views expressed respectfully would not constitute a gross breach of forum policy. It's hard, though, to imagine that 'la politesse' (and hence, 'laissez faire') can reign for very long.

shrox
11-16-2015, 03:12 PM
I don't think people realize just what a real dragonslayer Jimmy Carter was, with discussion alone he ended decades of war and animosity in the Middle East. This is a new dragon, but this one is a hydra. The only way to kill a hydra is to kill the body. The tough question is, what is the body of this hydra, and how do you slay it?

dickbill
11-16-2015, 03:19 PM
@ Steve, I will not insult anybody don't worry.
In a few days or months, we are going to re-open the exact same topic, for the exact same reason. It doesn't matter here, because it is a virtual forum, but things change on the ground. As I said, 6th lethal attack, that's a lot, to the point that it may become disruptive to the economy. People don't take the train/fly so often, cinema and Holydays attendance decrease, you got the picture.
Who is flying to Paris for Christmas ?

Kuzey
11-16-2015, 03:29 PM
I don't think people realize just what a real dragonslayer Jimmy Carter was, with discussion alone he ended decades of war and animosity in the Middle East. This is a new dragon, but this one is a hydra. The only way to kill a hydra is to kill the body. The tough question is, what is the body of this hydra, and how do you slay it?

I would agree with anything Jimmy Carter says on this or any subject!

The body is the effects of the Iraq war & poverty.

This is a great read on isil terrorists (http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/)

probiner
11-16-2015, 03:45 PM
Who is flying to Paris for Christmas ?
Who's flying to Damascus for Christmas? Oh, fighter jets..

Is there any report yet on the Paris incident? Is it any good?

dickbill
11-16-2015, 03:50 PM
The body is the effects of the Iraq war & poverty.

I agree. The only political party that opposed the war in Iraq and now Syria, is the French National Front. Liberal leftist Party totally supported the bombing.
Poverty in Iraq? well it's too late for that, but poverty in France is progressing, the only party who is demanding some sort of protectionism to safeguard the last pieces of the French industry is again...you got it.
Leftists and Liberals not only don't oppose massive outsourcing, but they also support massive immigration which can only add more unemployment, therefore more poverty.

When I say leftist, I mean Leftist circa 2015. In the 70's the French communist party, very leftist needless to say, demanded to totally stop immigration because unemployment was already on the rise. But that has changed. Now the main drivers of war and poverty in Western Europe are the Leftists and Liberals.

prometheus
11-16-2015, 03:53 PM
You can't compare the action of a lunatic like Breivik with what's going on here. Breivik may have been a social outcast on rampage, like we have here in the US with all these psychos.

May I remind people that it is the 6th terrorist attack in France related to Islamic extremism in the last year ?
Remember the Thallys train, where that American guy stopped a French Muslim terrorist in the wagon? there could have been dozen of killed easily there. Charlie Hebbo, attacked by...homebred French Muslim terrorists at least in part, and a few other stories like that including a decapitation on French soil, each time it was a homebred terrorist individual or group who did it. Infiltrated Extremists from the Middle East are actually an exception in these attacks.
But now that they can come, that's gonna change of course. We gonna have both.
Liberal Scandinavians, like all liberals, don't want to face the inconvenient truth.

stay on the line, did I say compare terrorists? I said breivik is a terrorist, a single one..but nonetheless a terrorist, he is alsa a lunatic, same goes for IS..they are lunatics as well as terrorists..there are differences, but I am not going in to detail of comparing a single man terrorist..or do a human have to join a group to be considered terrorist?
his act was aimed at the democracy of norway, and aimed with political and rascist agenda, if he had time and had followers, they would have been a group most likely...he was on trial for terroism by the eyes of the law and convicted as such.


Funny that, when they're white, they're lunatics & psychos but when they're not...it's religion!

How convenient.

I think it was more about a single persons act compared to a group rather than the color of the skin, it boils in a soup of hatred and fear though, just as it does with religious fanatics, the IS proclaims religious fanatism, where breivik, proclaimed himself a soldier to fight against such religion(but without distinction from extremist and normal muslims) and immigrants.
I prefer to define him as terrorist and not a hero

I don't think people realize just what a real dragonslayer Jimmy Carter was, with discussion alone he ended decades of war and animosity in the Middle East. This is a new dragon, but this one is a hydra. The only way to kill a hydra is to kill the body. The tough question is, what is the body of this hydra, and how do you slay it?

Kill the body as you said, or feed it candy to make it nice.

Some wise quotes..
Friedrich Nietzsche...
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Yes..donīt stamp on the monsters head in a monstrous way..if the rest of the world sees it..you are seen as a monster too, consequently..you will be fought as a monster...probably by other monsters.

More Friedrich Nietzsche...
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger.
could work both ways.

More Friedrich Nietzsche...shortened...
"For fanaticism is the only "strength of the will" that even the weak and insecure can be brought to attain"

Terrorists are weak minded..resorting to Illusions of "join us..and we will be strong and rewarded we have the power..you have the power and will be rewarded"...fools, itīs by definition cowerdness insecureness built in their spine.

Newt qoutes..

"My mother said there is no monsters..no real ones...but there are"

Be careful of what you create ..it may haunt you as monsters. (prometheus etc) itīs tragic that so many events..if not all, can be traced back to human history of war, poverty, religion etc...it sort of have become the genome for mankind treating mankind...would be nice if that link could be broken, or recoded.

shrox
11-16-2015, 03:56 PM
..."Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

That is exactly why I referenced Jimmy Carter.

prometheus
11-16-2015, 04:09 PM
That is exactly why I referenced Jimmy Carter.

Yeah..think you are right and I reckoned that is why you referenced it.

I wonder can you put the label of hybris on to most terrorists? dictators etc? Breivik seem to have a portion of it, IS too, as well as hitler.

probiner
11-16-2015, 04:17 PM
Since someone brought the unburnt passports. Here's an interview with someone with in interesting theory. She doesn't focus on who or why (for example, she belives in aliens, but they aren't mentioned)... Instead she focus on footage from that day and looks into them with a forensic attitude and she points out interesting things.
If you can stomach looking into footage from that terrible day (the videos are NOT graphic) check these:

The towers didn't colapse, they were "dustyfied":
https://www.youtube.com/embed/bmmQ6OWMHTI?start=1680&autoplay=1&iv_load_policy=3

Steel beams didn't crack, but put through softening state or vaprourized:
www.youtube.com/embed/bmmQ6OWMHTI?start=4282&autoplay=1&iv_load_policy=3

Unburnt paper and trees, and burned engines:
www.youtube.com/embed/bmmQ6OWMHTI?start=3490&autoplay=1&iv_load_policy=3

Cheers

shrox
11-16-2015, 05:25 PM
Since someone brought the unburnt passports. Here's an interview with someone with in interesting theory. She doesn't focus on who or why (for example, she belives in aliens, but they aren't mentioned)... Instead she focus on footage from that day and looks into them with a forensic attitude and she points out interesting things.
If you can stomach looking into footage from that terrible day (the videos are NOT graphic) check these:

The towers didn't colapse, they were "dustyfied":
https://www.youtube.com/embed/bmmQ6OWMHTI?start=1680&autoplay=1&iv_load_policy=3

Steel beams didn't crack, but put through softening state or vaprourized:
www.youtube.com/embed/bmmQ6OWMHTI?start=4282&autoplay=1&iv_load_policy=3

Unburnt paper and trees, and burned engines:
www.youtube.com/embed/bmmQ6OWMHTI?start=3490&autoplay=1&iv_load_policy=3

Cheers

No, just no.

RebelHill
11-16-2015, 06:28 PM
belives in aliens

Credibility personified.

probiner
11-16-2015, 06:33 PM
So if someone believes in aliens, God, or any other strange belief you don't approve you just don't hear them? Sorry all the scientist in all the labs around the world, your work is compromised by your personal beliefs...

Check the videos and look at the exposure and judge that if you are an analytic person. The video are observations of footage and she puts forward hypotesis what could be the cause of those diverse fenomena. Saying fires made those buildings disappear like that and explain all those events, it certainly wrecks any credibility (http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc-082108.cfm).

shrox
11-16-2015, 06:58 PM
So if someone believes in aliens, God, or any other strange belief you don't approve you just don't hear them? Sorry all the scientist in all the labs around the world, your work is compromised by your personal beliefs...

Check the videos and look at the exposure and judge that if you are an analytic person. The video are observations of footage and she puts forward hypotesis what could be the cause of those diverse fenomena. Saying fires brought those buildings down like that and explain all those events, it certainly wrecks any credibility.

Those really have little to with the subject at hand, the human suffering in the attack on Paris.

RebelHill
11-16-2015, 07:03 PM
You've obviously not seen much of Probiner's "everythings a conspiracy" angling. If its on the news/mainstream media... its a government lie, because... aliens/illuminati/etc.

Go to your kitchen, fashion a tin hat, you will receive the enlightenment.

It is interesting to note however that jihadists, revolutionaries and vanguardists of most descriptions tend to be posessed of an idea that somehow they're cognizant of some of some great truth that the rest of the "sheep" are somehow blisfully unaware of, and that this fact sets them apart and makes them special in someway, a state of being which causes them to feel the utterly iresistable need to try and spread their great insight at every opportunity, with a near unshakable level of conviction and certainty.

Its a psychology shared by most conspiracy followers.

probiner
11-16-2015, 07:32 PM
Ad hominem attacks

If you don't want to check the information (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vadSaWyiozg) put up, fine. But you're adding nothing. Unless you're aiming for thread lock.



Those really have little to with the subject at hand, the human suffering in the attack on Paris.
This has to do with Peace and Prosperity and both are under attack! How many died in that terrible day in 2001 and how many subsequently died in the aftermath of that in the following 14 years, mounted on that tragedy? Many milions more!
How well informed are we about these tragic events? What just happened in Paris? Do we know? Who enabled those men? But people are already calling murder like they knew, blaming a religion, blaming people from that same religion running away from daily death...
The migration crisis already had people on their tip and this is just stirring up the pot without any information at all, just news corporations managing fear and innocent deaths to pull people closer to the powers at be for protection, because you're not even allowed to protect yourself against armed man.
The bodies on the street we saw in the Paris theater, the suffering we get in our "Elysium"-like NATO dome is a fraction compared to that going on other regions fueled precisely by some of our fellow countrymen, with public funds and national authority and even acting over it, not some strained group in the desert. So if we repudiate that kind of violence in Paris, and root for peace, let's be encompassing about the sentiment and wish it also for other cities.
It's perfectly fair one doesn't want to have its country invaded by foreigner migrants, specially if there's no connection with, not in language, not in beliefs, not in culture, etc. Certainly creates an environment where things can go very wrong over time. But then we also have to be against foreign intervention and faction funding by our countrymen with our taxes which result in slaughters, and even genetic compromise (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNi_1pbSqGY).
So my point is lets rally for peace, here and abroad. We got our own arsoles (https://youtu.be/UxJ8fdSdmpM?t=99), at "home" to deal with, that have been undermining our prosperity, adding nothing to society, putting other fellow countrymen living in shame, without any justice weighting on them to correct the situation.

Cheers

shrox
11-16-2015, 07:33 PM
... to be possessed of an idea that somehow they're cognizant of some of some great truth that the rest of the "sheep" are somehow blissfully unaware of, and that this fact sets them apart and makes them special in someway...

Oh, well this part is definitely me.

- - - Updated - - -


If you don't want to check the information put up, fine. But you're adding nothing. Unless you're aiming for thread lock.



This has to do with consequences. How many died in that terrible day in 2001 and how many subsequently died in the aftermath of that in the following 14 years, mounted on that tragedy? Many milions more!
How well informed are we about these events?
And that has all to do with just happened in Paris? What happened there? They are just silent and allowing people to assume everything... The migration crisis already had people on their tip and this is just stirring up the pot without any information at all. Just news corporations managing fear and innocent deaths to pull people closer to the powers at be for protection, because you're not even allowed to protect yourself against armed man.

We could go back to Issac or Ishmael too. But I hope we don't. Besides, do you know about the wrap on insulation and the spray on insulation in the towers? That provides the most Occam explanation.

prometheus
11-16-2015, 10:25 PM
people..why canīt we all just get along...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVY1V8fXBmY

shrox
11-16-2015, 11:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f_Vjz66gh8

Trololo...la la la!

sami
11-16-2015, 11:13 PM
You send in the boys... Anyone who runs, is a terrorist. Anyone who stands still, is a well disciplined terrorist.

Hopin' I'm missing that classic British sarcastic wit, cuz this sound alot like this to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2xlQaimsGg

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 04:46 AM
Hopin' I'm missing that classic British sarcastic wit, cuz this sound alot like this to me:

Its full metal jacket (or paraphrasing full metal jacket).


If you don't want to check the information (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vadSaWyiozg) put up, fine.

Wow!

Directed free energy... there's another one of those credibility inspiring phrases. So the mass of the rubble was less than the mass of the towers eh... did she weight it and compa... oh no wait, she could just TELL by looking at some videos. Mostly Im amazed she's not making a fortune winning "jar of beans" games at fairs n fetes the world over. :screwy:

Thanks, I like a good chuckle around midmorning.

Kaptive
11-17-2015, 05:41 AM
Its a psychology shared by most conspiracy followers.

That is a very convienient little box to put a vast amount of people in RH, and I hope you aren't so narrow minded. When you bare in mind people like Edward Snowdon revealing the hidden underbelly to governmental/corporate affairs, there is very clearly a multitude of rather disturbing things going on. The press no longer investigate and are merely hear-say. People seek the truth because it clearly isn't being told. The word "conspiracy" has been very cleverly painted to sit along side of "looney", and is used (in just the way you have) to paint someone in a particular light and elevate your own personal views as to be sane and rational.

Skepticism is healthy, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater is every bit as looney, unless you want a world where everyone simply believes EVERYTHING they are told without question... marching that road down to fascism and domination.

Don't put people into boxes, levels of sanity and rationality vary greatly from all vantage points. I rather hoped you had a more open and reasonable mind than that. Maybe I'm just reading you incorrectly.

Edit/note : To be fair, you did say MOST conspiracy followers... but that's still a bit of a broad statement.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 06:33 AM
When attempting to be open minded, one must be careful not to become feeble minded and admit any ol crackpot idea into the discussion. When people start on about aliens, the illuminati, secret energy weapons straight out of star trek, et al (whilst presenting nothing more than conjecture masquerading as proof)... it's bonkers... flat out bonkers. And yes... the followers and believers in such all belong in the one box together, the box to which the mind retreats when it feels somehow trapped with little control over its own life, and thus presumes that there is some great, hidden, external actor pulling all the strings, be that a government agency, secret society, or deity. Cultist belief just is what it is.

Furthermore, if the press no longer investigate... then how is it that we get revelations such as last weeks disclosure of both corporate and state corruption in international athletics, broken by a german investigative reporter? Or going back to "larger" matters... how is it that the story of senior level CIA knowing there were no wmd in iraq but overuling the lower officers broke? Or the revelation of CIA black sites? Or the good ol "dodgy dossier" story (closer to home) came out?? You think all these things were just in some press release?

Even if we take the idea that "you cant believe everything you read in the papers" is absolutely true... do you really think that just swallowing as fact any ol information on youtube is somehow better? A platform thats open to the point of allowing any old crank to get worldwide exposure?

And whilst you can cite the revelations of the snowdens and the mannings all you like, all they really reveal is insight into the finite detail of things, the who, the how, etc. That the NSA, GCHQ, etc were/are spying on people was NOT a revelation. These are not secret organisations who very existence and purpose had been hidden up until then.

All this "shadow enemy" thinking is really no different than times past when the same minded folk would go round blaming the ills of the world on devils or witches or vampires... The only difference is that if you used those same words today, you'd obviously be crazy.

inkpen3d
11-17-2015, 07:02 AM
Ian McEwan on Paris:

The death cult chose its city well -- Paris, secular capital of the world, as hospitable, diverse and charming a metropolis as was ever devised. And the death cult chose its targets in the city with ghoulish, self-damning accuracy -- everything they loathed stood plainly before them on a happy Friday evening: men and women in easy association, wine, free-thinking, laughter, tolerance, music -- wild and satirical rock and blues. The cultists came armed with savage nihilism and a hatred that lies beyond our understanding. Their protective armour was the suicide belt, their idea of the ultimate hiding place was the virtuous after-life, where the police cannot go. (The jihadist paradise is turning out to be one of humanity’s worst ever ideas; slash and burn in this life, eternal rest among kitsch in the next).

Paris, dazed and subdued, woke this morning to reflect on its new circumstances. Those of us who were out on the town last night can only wonder at the vagaries of chance that lets us live and others die. As the slaughter began, my wife and I were in a venerable Paris institution, a cliché of the modest good life since 1845. In this charming restaurant in the sixieme, one shares crowded tables with good-willed strangers, visitors and locals in a friendly crush. With our Pouilly Fume and filets d'hareng, we were as good a target as any. The cult chose the onzieme, the dixieme, barely a mile away and we didn't know a thing.

Now we do. What are those changed circumstances? Security will tighten and Paris must become a little less charming. The necessary tension between security and freedom will remain a challenge. The death-cult’s bullets and bombs will come again, here or somewhere else, we can be sure. The citizens of London, New York, Berlin are paying close and nervous attention. In January we were all Charlie Hebdo. Now, we are all Parisians and that at least, in a dark time, is a matter of pride.

Ian McEwan
14 November 2015

dickbill
11-17-2015, 07:19 AM
Bernard Henri Levy, the man who encouraged former Pres. Sarkozy to destroy Libya, declared that, after this attack, more control on internet is absolutely necessary.... He also suggested to actively support and arm the Kurds, to defeat DAESH he said. (but if they could remove Al Assad from power, I bet Levy won't object). He added that the US should put boots on the ground because 'less US boots on the ground (in Syria) means more blood in the European soil'.
I've seen that the idea to use the Kurds as a proxy army is becoming more popular in the US too. So the French, after supporting 'moderate terrorists', may now switch to support 'moderate Kurdish groups'.
I haven't seen or heard Mr. "In charge but not Accountable" about this idea. But it looks like it could be the next step : Kurdish with the latest high tech weaponry in Syria. Hopefully they won't try to shoot Russian helicopters, eh....

Kaptive
11-17-2015, 07:41 AM
reply to RH:
Thank you for your considered and very reasonable reply, and I agree with much of what you say. Where we deviate is perhaps through personal experience, and some of the more cray cray aspects you mention are most certainly a reality, but secret for very good reasons, just not with our best interests at heart. However, I'm not going to try and convince you of anything as it is something way off topic for the LW forum. All I will say is that there are some very very strange aspects to our existence here that go outside the realms of standard normality. I say this from a position of personal and shared experiences.

Sadly, the truth of what I speak is buried in a vast sea of diffusion, speculation and misdirection. Nothing is straight forward and clear cut. Proof of the incredible is much harder to attain than the standard narrative, but it doesn't make it any less real. Some things need to be seen with your own eyes, and nothing less will suffice. When you have very real personal experience of such things and are tarred with the tinfoil hat possy/conspiracy nut moniker it can be uniquely frustrating and saddening. As I say, this isn't the place for such discussions but as a rational person I have witnessed things that have altered my views on this reality and generally accepted norms, but I am also smart enough to know that I know nothing... or at least not enough to have a full definition.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 08:02 AM
If you know that you know nothing, then the question must surely follow... how could you possibly know that?

And whilst personal experience all seems well and good, and is doubtlessly pretty convincing to the one who experiences it... the simple fact is that even the most rational mind can play tricks on itself, either willingly or unconsciously.

dickbill
11-17-2015, 08:08 AM
All this "shadow enemy" thinking is really no different than times past when the same minded folk would go round blaming the ills of the world on devils or witches or vampires... The only difference is that if you used those same words today, you'd obviously be crazy.
Excellently said. Just this meme made worth reading the entire thread.
Actually, watching this illustration of a witch hunt with a priest haranguing an angry crowd, I though what may have push these people to think that witches were real ? it doesn't seem possible unless the accused women, somehow convinced or auto-suggested themselves that they were indeed more or less into witchcraft, like if everybody was acting in a theater, and watching from above the play unrolling.
Is it possible that today, some people in power could auto-suggest themself to endorse a 'theater role' in a play that involves a world wide conspiracy and act accordingly ?

Kaptive
11-17-2015, 08:39 AM
If you know that you know nothing, then the question must surely follow... how could you possibly know that?

And whilst personal experience all seems well and good, and is doubtlessly pretty convincing to the one who experiences it... the simple fact is that even the most rational mind can play tricks on itself, either willingly or unconsciously.

Can 2 very rational minds play tricks on themselves in exactly the same way at exactly the same time? One of them as skeptical as yourself? Sadly, I'm sure it is easy for someone outside the experience to convince themselves that they can.
Anyway, I very much doubt I can convince you of anything, and as I stated before, I have no intention of trying to do so, as it is a fruitless exercise. I can just hope that you have your own experiences that open new doors of consideration.

I simply know that I do not have all the answers and could never have, but my experiences have raised questions that fall way outside of the accepted norms. Thus I know more than some, but I still remain in a state of unknowing... made worse by a technical inability to offer solid proof beyond the word of a gentleman with nothing to gain by being open and honest regarding the subjects... and in this instance I'm merely talking about one aspect of a much wider picture.

We're just a Mulder and a Scully RH. Though I suspect that you don't have flowing red hair nor wear smart womens suits. These days though, you just never know :)

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 08:39 AM
what may have push these people to think that witches were real ?.. Is it possible that today, some people in power could auto-suggest themself to endorse a 'theater role' in a play that involves a world wide conspiracy and act accordingly ?

Possible... but by no means necessary. All that is needed is ignorance, and a mind that is primed toward suspicion. This priming toward suspicion is easily cultivated through standard human interaction... discovering that people you thought were your friends, or partners have actually lied, or stabbed you in the back. once your trut in people "breaks", you can project that onto anyone any everyone... throw in a few movies and the occasional, inevitable political/corporate scandal that will occur in the real world, and it becomes easy to construct a false narrative... especially when the world and all its facets seem so vast, so far away, and, often, so incomprehensible and difficult to understand in any simple, digestible terms.

Its nothing more than the path of least resistance in terms of understanding... Far easier to believe a person's sickness is due to some witches curse, than to grapple with the complexities of microbes possessing highly plastic and dynamic dna structures producing an array of proteins capable of damaging the membranes or interrupting the metabolic pathways of the cells they act upon, cells which themselves rely on a process of blah, blah, blah..

Othertimes... its fot he need of AN explanation in the absense of ANY explanation. Far easier to believe that a vaccination gave your child autism, that there IS an actual cause that can be blamed, than to accept that your kiddie is nothing more than the victim of a dice role, a random chance event that could neither have been predicted, nor protected against.

Alien conspiracies, false flags, shadowy groups... these are nothing more than superstitions, expressed in the modern day lexicon of technology and geopolitics rather than the archaic language of ghosts and goblins.

dickbill
11-17-2015, 09:16 AM
I see.
This is the Materialist Reductionist point of view of a world that can be reduced, in fine, to a complex machine. A machine that would demand a very high, yet finite, amount of precision to be able to predict what seem to be unpredictable,
a random chance event that could neither have been predicted, nor protected against.
Yet the world, in fine, may not be reducible to such materialistic point of view. I will just mention two books of Roger Penrose: either "Shadows of the Mind" or his "Emperor's new Mind", and the "Tao of Physics" of Fritjof Capra. In my opinion, Penrose blew away completely the Materialist Reductionist point of view.
So perhaps conspiracies and shadowy groups are reducible to ghost and goblins, yet, you may not be able to reduce ghost and goblins.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 09:16 AM
Can 2 very rational minds play tricks on themselves in exactly the same way at exactly the same time? One of them as skeptical as yourself? Sadly, I'm sure it is easy for someone outside the experience to convince themselves that they can.

Ofc they can... instances of "mass experience" (hallucination/delusion/etc) are very well documented, and actually have MUCH stronger evidence is support of their causes than the evidence for the reported "phenomena". For instance the good old "haunted house". There's very good evidence to suggest that the cause may be down to damp and mould, where spores in the air are breathed in, releasing chemicals into the bloodstream which produce a mild hallucinagenic effect.

Or consider that mass fainting at that school last week... No fumes, gas, or other cause detected, only kids effected, no adults. One goes down "truthfully", another thinks its a prank and apes them... and groupthink takes over. Others follow suit without even realising what they're doing.


I can just hope that you have your own experiences that open new doors of consideration.
Actually, no need to hope. Ever since childhood (and still to this day) I've had a "classic" dream demon attachment (I even have a name for it, I call it the "Black guard"). The specifics themselves always differ, but on reflection en masse, the format is always the same. Im always in some place and outside is this "thing". Sometimes I'm only aware taht its there by somehow being able to "sense" it... other times I can hear it scratching at the walls or door, though most commonly, i can see it, by looking out trough some window or peephole.

The initial fear is always the same, that its only a matter of time before it finds a way in and comes for me, but then a second thought dawns upon me... what if my fear to go outside is actually keeping me prisoner, and that this has been its plan all along, and this terrifies me most because, if that's the case... then it has already won.

Its usually around this point that I wake up... freezing cold and terrified to my very bones, and once in a blue moon... just for a moment, I think I can see it standing in the corner of the room. Once upon a time, that really made me freak out.

But here's the thing... How it seems, isnt how it is, it isnt some ghost or demon, its just my own imagination, clearly evidenced by the fact that the only time I have these experiences is at times when there's something going on in my life that's stressful, that's making me feel somehow "trapped". Its nothing more than a manifestation in the mind of my real word anxieties and pressing situation. And the "thing" in the room after I awake... is nothing but a trick of the light (or more correctly shadows), the fact that Im still half asleep, and that Im the (eventual) descendant of a funny lil monkey who's brain was wired to the hilt to spot predators and threats lurking in the shadows at night, waiting to gobble him up.


I suspect that you don't have flowing red hair nor wear smart womens suits.

Only on saturdays.

Kaptive
11-17-2015, 09:28 AM
Alien conspiracies, false flags, shadowy groups... these are nothing more than superstitions, expressed in the modern day lexicon of technology and geopolitics rather than the archaic language of ghosts and goblins.

The thing is RH, you speak with authority as though you know everything (though you're very knowledgable regarding 3D matters to be sure! and on that front I have nothing but respect).
But what your last post lacks are the words...

"it is merely my opinion and I am just one person limited by my own personal experience, so thus... I could be wrong. I am bound by my beliefs in exactly the same way as those I that I deem incorrect. What I say could just as easily be false".

You can turn what you said on its head and say that Ghosts and Goblins are archaic limited descriptions of real phenomena that have been bound to superstition because of misunderstanding and religious dogma.
Respectfully, personal dogma is exactly what you are speaking when you say the things you do in that manner. An unshakable and easily incorrect paradigm that you cannot proove any more than the next man. Opinion is merely opinion.

This understanding of ones self is the foundation of an open mind. It doesn't mean you have to believe everything (or anything!), but speaking in certainties that contradict the experience of others is the trait of a closed mind. Are you really that rigid??

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 09:34 AM
This is the Materialist Reductionist point of view of a world that can be reduced, in fine, to a complex machine... Penrose blew away completely the Materialist Reductionist point of view.

Sort of... rather that it is the inability to properly comprehend the complex workings of a machine, coupled with the "need" to know, that gives rise to the ability to more easily accept simple explanations if one can view them in a way that provides "argumentative sense"... even if you cannot construct that same explanation any any kind of "mechanical sense".

As for Penrose... he didnt blow any such things away, he presented an hypothesis only, and then... only in reference to the problem of understanding and quantifying "consciouness", largely predicated on the idea that there may be quantum processes at work in the workings of the mind/brain/consciouness, and thus that "thought" cannot be replicated by a turing machine (but presumably that it would require a quantum computer), and is thus non-reducable since quantum events lack determinism.

This was a popular question at the time (and in some terms still is)... to what extent did quantum mechanics play a role in the mechanics of biological apparatus.

Since the time of those publications, however, there HAS been research done on the communication pathways of neurons at the molecular an atomic level, which have ruled out quantum effects playing any part... thus, while it doesnt answer the question of how "mechanisable" the mind is... penrose's point of entry into the hypothesis... is false.

Kaptive
11-17-2015, 09:40 AM
Actually, no need to hope. Ever since childhood (and still to this day) I've had a "classic" dream demon attachment

Though dream weirdness can be eye opening, it isn't quite the kind of experience I am talking about. But very interesting to be sure (thank you for sharing!). The dream you are talking about is very much akin to what is known (if memory serves) as "The keeper of the void". Not had that one myself, and the things I have experienced have been (with a couple of exceptions) very much in a full state of wakefullness. I respect your examples of shared delusion, but it just doesn't really cut it with regard to myself (in my opinion of course!). These conversations are a real merry-go-round, even with hard proof.

Anyway, we could debate this until the end of the world... we've got about half an hour. Care for a few pints to cussion the system before the Vogons turn up? :)

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 09:48 AM
This understanding of ones self is the foundation of an open mind. It doesn't mean you have to believe everything (or anything!), but speaking in certainties that contradict the experience of others is the trait of a closed mind.

Again... there's a distinction between the open mind and the feeble mind. Being open minded is not the same as allowing everything as possible, otherwise you have nothing more than an argument of universal ignorance. That the sky is blue (for instance) is not an opinion... no matter how much someone may try and say... "its only blue if you CALL it blue... I call it booblehop".

You have to be prepared to discount things that are either so implausible as to defy belief... or where the claim and its counter claim have the balance of probabilities shifted heavily to one side rather than the other.

Do I know for certain taht there isnt some army of pink elephants living at the centre of the earth, simply waiting till the day that humans have multiplied enough that they can surface, crush our bodies and use them as chips in some intergalactic poker game?? Nope... I do not know that for sure, but it seems quite unlikely to be true. And the fact that I might happen upon a someone who claims to have seen it with their own eyes doesnt make it any more likely.

I mean david icke has claimed to have witnessed the queen mum transform into a lizard and consume huuman baby... do you really give such a "personal experience" any credence?

Its not rigidity... its rigour... and theres a difference.

Edit;

And actually... there's another VERY important aspect to such things which lie in the bounds of the main topic here.

To begin to accept some persons say-so of their personal experience, without any proof, or independent corroboration, and give that any degree of evidentiary weight, then there's no end to what can be admitted under the same format and framework. If you can accept (in some measure) the ramblings of one who says they saw a ghost/ufo/whatever, then why not also accept the testimony of the person who says... "she's a witch, I saw her suckling satan in the woods".

Its a slippery slope, at the bottom of which lie all manner of witch finders and jihadists.

Kaptive
11-17-2015, 10:38 AM
I mean david icke has claimed to have witnessed the queen mum transform into a lizard and consume huuman baby... do you really give such a "personal experience" any credence?

It's funny you should say that, but that is not a place I am going.

Keeping it simple, I find it amazing that you dismiss aliens.. (assuming you mean visiting Earth, not the concept as a whole). Why do you deem this to be superstition? In the realm of possibilities alien beings visiting Earth is far from unrealistic.

Given the very basic level of technology we currently have (domestically at least) we still seem most intent of visiting other worlds. Providing we don't blow ourselves up and stay on a technological track, then that dream will in all likelihood become a reality. Would other intelligent beings not aspire to the same ambition through a higher sense of purpose or even through necessity?

Given the sheer amount of stars and galaxies, on top of the evidence we already have for exo-planets as well as the ability for life to exist even in the most extreme of environments... why would it be such a stretch to imagine we are being viewed or visited by beings from places other than Earth? It actually seems far more likely than not.

On top of this, we have experiments in progress right now at Cern which are talking about dimensions and testing extreme theories. We've come this far in the space of about 1-200 years. How far would a technological civilisation progress if you times that by 5.... 10... ? Is that an irrational train of thought? On top of this there are millions of people who have witnessed extremely strange things that infer that they have seen something beyond our Earthly technology. Even if I hadn't seen anything myself (more than once)... taking that out of the equation... I'd still be more likely to believe that some of the things people have seen are likely to be other-worldly.

And here's the critical point:- If only one of those events is true out of the millions of reports, then it confirms that such things are possible. Just because you haven't witnessed anything, are you saying these millions of people are all nuts and delusional? Yes, some are going to be misidentification and "swamp gas", and some are likely to be advanced human tech (which raises its own set of questions), but it still leaves plenty for ... something else.

It just suprises me your opinion given these facts. It is a logical conclusion, not pie in the sky imagination. Certainly it is a strong enough argument not to dismiss it as superstition at least. This is why I said in an earlier post... don't throw the baby out with the bath water.


Anyway, this is long way away from the original subject and I'm not really comfortable talking about these things on LWs forum. But I thank you for the very level conversation and it is always enlightening to get insight into other viewpoints that differ from my own. Have a great eve RH.

dickbill
11-17-2015, 11:17 AM
Yes, Penrose proposition is a conjecture. However his arguments are more general than what you mention here, RebellHill. It is based on Gödel's incompleteness theorem and excludes ANY reduction of the Mind to ANY algorithmic process (which could be run into a machine, such as the brain, or a computer for that matter). This excludes any Learning-machine software or any quantum-based computation, because Penrose's conjecture is precisely that the Mind is not computable and can not be 'simulated', no matter how powerful is or will be the computing 'support'.
Needless to mention here the difference between the Mind (or Consciousness), and the Brain, which is indeed an organ of computing, very finite of about 1.5 kg, whose complexity is computable now and could be simulated in the near future.
But it is just a conjecture because Penrose assumes that there IS a Mind, while Reductionists assume (but don't prove) that there is not, and that what we call the Mind is an emergent feature of brain complexity.

I also thought that Penrose took too much risk trying to link is Objective Reduction process to quantum coherence in the microtubules. Initially his buddy Hamerhoff talked about microtubule subunit spatial conformation, now they talk about subunit POLARITY rather than conformation. That we haven't discover such coherence is not surprising given the cellular environment. However that doesn't change Penrose's conjecture for the last bit. If he's right, something not computable exists in the physical universe that is not taken into account in any current model. Penrose SUGGESTED, not affirmed, that it could have something to do with the microtubules. Now, is it the spatial orientation of the microtubules subunits ? probably not. The polarity ? this is not confirmed nor infirmed, to my knowledge, but I praise the effort.

Even if it is not the polarity, even if this 'process' is not linked to the microtubules at all, Penrose conjecture remains intact and will remain intact as long as an Artificial CONSCIOUSNESS (as opposed to an Artificial Intelligence, like a Chess program) is not build de novo.
For comparison, the double helix model of the DNA was not the first proposed by Watson and Crick, some other structure were proposed (helicoidal triple helix and other) and discarded before X-ray diffraction settled the issue. But years before the doubled stranded DNA became finally known, Erwin Schrodinger was able to propose on theoretical ground only a 'general requirement model' of a 'liquid quasi-crystal macromolecule' carrying the genetic information, in his book 'What is Life'. So, all comes in time, but theoretical and fundamental argumentation generally comes first.

I can't imagine how could work a putative 'Self Conscious Artificial Intelligence', even running self-learning algorithms into a quantum computer, while still bounded by the impassable Horizon of Gödel Incompleteness Theorem, exactly the same way light cannot escape a Black Hole Horizon. So, personally I think Penrose is right in his conjecture, and if he's right then Evolution also cannot be fully reduced to a computational mechanism (such as Darwinism). The consequences are staggering.

dickbill
11-17-2015, 11:34 AM
Unfortunatly Kaptive, one of these consequences is that Life is a single occurrence process, more like a state of the Universe, that is set at beginning, like the speed of the Light.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 11:46 AM
there are millions of people who have witnessed extremely strange things that infer that they have seen something beyond our Earthly technology.

You mean imply... and no, Im afraid it doesnt, by any measure. Simply because one or many people have seen something they either cant explain or dont recognise doesnt mean that it must be something beyond the human or the natural in origin. For centuries people have witnessed comets and eclipses, volcanoes and earthquakes and attached "otherworldly" explanations to them (usually gods) because clearly these phenomena were beyond the abilities/technology of man. Ever see a Derren Brown show?.. I swear, some of the things that man does... impossible... unbelievable... I cannot, no matter how hard I try conceive of how he performs some of his feats which go so far beyond simple suggestion or slight of hand illusion as to be truly astounding and incomprehensible.

Doesnt mean its ACTUALLY magic.

To arrive at such conclusions is the product of nothing more than ignorance of the cause, and flight to high level answers. For when a thing cannot be explained with ones existing knowledge, it is very easy to climb the ladder of imagination until you hit upon a solution which is "big enough" to hypothetically contain the seemingly inexplicable.


I find it amazing that you dismiss aliens.. (assuming you mean visiting Earth, not the concept as a whole). Why do you deem this to be superstition? In the realm of possibilities alien beings visiting Earth is far from unrealistic... Given the sheer amount of stars and galaxies, on top of the evidence we already have for exo-planets as well as the ability for life to exist even in the most extreme of environments... why would it be such a stretch to imagine we are being viewed or visited by beings from places other than Earth? It actually seems far more likely than not.

I didnt say that... I said alien conspiracies (in pretty much all their various forms of secret technologies, xfiles-esque cabal alliances, intergalactic overlord ruling earth from afar, etc) are nothing but the same old superstition of centuries past that have used words like titan, angel, or jinn. And these things are superstition because they're based upon belief and spurious inference (such as mentioned above) with no real evidence of any useful quality other than some tale of experience or some blurry photograph which could easily be of a pineapple.

As for the existance of, or visitation by aliens... who knows. Its plausible Id say (though there are many questions raised by fermi's paradox that might significantly reduce the actual probability)... but without something more solid to go on than the spurious claims, then drawing any kind of conclusion is nothing more than a guess at best, and an outright fantasy at worst.


we have experiments in progress right now at Cern which are talking about dimensions and testing extreme theories.

Oh no... you said it... you bloody went and said it... dimensions.

Ok, so... this whole idea of "dimensions" as you hear it talked about within the realms of science, etc... is one of the most thoroughly misunderstood terms going (trumped only by the question, if people evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys). The commonly advocated idea is that there are these extra/higher dimensions where upon other "stuff" might exist. Beings, spirits, aliens... all sorts of ideas floating about. Sadly, that's NOT at all what's actually meant by the term "dimensions"... as in, some other "plane of existence".

Admittedly, one of the problems with this, is that the way its meant cant (with any great deal of ease or clarity) be expressed in normal language... its a construct of the mathematics which explain the mechanics of physics.

The first version of the misunderstanding comes from Reimann's work on geometric spaces, wherein he proposed a higher dimensional space which was non-euclidean in nature... this would later go on to be formalised into minkowski space time. This idea of extra dimensions was seized on by spiritualists of the day (basically teh 19th century's deepak chopras) as "proof" of the spirit world. It was a nonsense then, and its a nonsense today, which fundamentally misunderstands what is meant by this idea of dimensionality.

The more recent version comes from string theory, which proposes a many dimensional space (26 as it happens) wherein interactions occur which underpin/spew out the forces of physics. Again... this is a purely mathematical construct and has nothing to do with some sort of alternative "place you can occupy/go to/come from". Funnily enough... this very construct hangs on another area of Reimann's work which is the analytic continuation of the infinite sums of positive, incereasing numbers and how these can be seen to become convergent rather than divergent at the infinite limit and how that happens in constrast to their behaviour at finite limits, and how this can be performed on the complex plane (which is itself another "higher" dimension of numbers themselves) in order to formally prove this convergence.

It also must be noted that elegant and clever though this string theory is... it is at this stage nothing more than an hypothesis, and to date, not only is it unproven in any way... the theory has not even produced a single testable prediction, and thus may turn out to be nothing more than a very clever piece of mathematical trickery which can be used as an analytical tool with which to examine to results of other mathematics.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 11:51 AM
Reductionists assume (but don't prove) that there is not, and that what we call the Mind is an emergent feature of brain complexity.

If you interfere with a persons brain through chemistry (such as drugs) you can "push" them into altered mental states. If you physically damage a person's brain, you can clearly damage their "mind" (memory, cognition, personality, sense of self/self-awareness, etc).

That's pretty good evidence.

prometheus
11-17-2015, 12:14 PM
wow..this thread has now entered discussions on conspiracy and metaphysics, very interesting and I would like to jump in..well at least on the metaphysichs parts which I enjoy to discuss..but I think it will start to turn in to a multithread with politics, religion etc just a bit too much..and I feel it wouldnīt be in gain for the forum nor follow the forum rules.

Itīs of course a natural evolution when talking about one thing..it leads to another ..thus crossing to another state, cause and effect my dear, I believe I have to go and take a P...
Thanks beevee for letting us express a little about our condolences, venting our feelings and showing support for other humans with our thoughts behind the tragic event..it will always be political to some degree..thatīs life.

Michael

VonBon
11-17-2015, 12:24 PM
Too believe that “Existence” is some sort of mistake or coincidence is foolish, in my opinion. We only “know” what we have experienced. There are indeed secret societies all around the world. The names may be unknown or in most cases, well known. Knowledge itself is a closely guarded and legally protected in most countries, to stop people from having access to “Trade Secrets”. The Super Natural and Magic are real things for sure. Just because one knows the secret to how something works, doesn’t make it any less Magical or Super Natural to someone who doesn’t understand the workings. The Universe is magic and will be for a very, very long time. For as much as our knowledge grows, so does the Universe.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 12:36 PM
this thread has now entered discussions on conspiracy and metaphysics, very interesting and I would like to jump in..well at least on the metaphysichs parts which I enjoy to discuss..but I think it will start to turn in to a multithread with politics, religion etc just a bit too much
Well, the metaphysical stuff is doubtlessly OT, and tbh, its a dead end anyway.

The conspiratorial stuff however is, I feel, quite topical of a fashion.

Afterall... there's a very big difference between a terrorist attack, and a "false flag", and which is true is fundamental to our response to such things, not to mention the state of the world itself. Further... if the latter be true, those proclaiming it had better have something pretty solid to back that up with... just sprouting nonsense that somehow "I know"... or citing cranks talking about "secret energy weapons"... isnt just counterproductive, its outright fecking insulting. Shameful really.

Plus ofc, you can also see the effects of such things, and how they turn (aka the witch huntery)... and the fact that a LOT of the feeling and motivation that underpins the movement of global jihadism is itself, based upon certain decade old conspiracy theories, which are equally insane and twisted.


Just because one knows the secret to how something works, doesn’t make it any less Magical or Super Natural to someone who doesn’t understand the workings.

Garbage... utter garbage. If you were to show off some piece of modern tech to some undiscovered tribe... they may THINK you're performing magic, but that doesnt mean you are.

dickbill
11-17-2015, 12:39 PM
The non-computational element speculated by Penrose has to interact, I am not even sure that 'interact' is appropriate, with our mental state. By itself it does not have to carry any of the qualities you mention such as memory, cognition or personality.
It allows, more than it is, self awareness. The only 'quality' that it has, is to breach the Horizon of Gödel incompleteness theorem. It seems that this 'quality' makes it to escape any possible finite or accurate description. Above description: this is why I also mentioned the 'Tao of Physics" above, because these concepts are apparently core of Eastern Mysticism.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 12:52 PM
It allows, more than it is, self awareness. The only 'quality' that it has, is to breach the Horizon of Gödel incompleteness theorem. It seems that this 'quality' makes it to escape any possible finite or accurate description.
How convenient... demand an element which defies description without any clear demonstration that such an element is indeed required. One conjecture built upon another.

this is why I also mentioned the 'Tao of Physics" above, because these concepts are apparently core of Eastern Mysticism.
Yeah... the tao of physics is rubbish... Its a FANTASTIC demonstration of the thinking of someone who doesnt understand physics. If you want some real physics and like penrose, you should read "Road to Reality"... it only takes 3 or 4 readings to properly wrap your head around.

VonBon
11-17-2015, 12:59 PM
Rebel I think you need to look up the full definitions of Magic and Supernatural.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 01:07 PM
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/magic

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supernatural

VonBon
11-17-2015, 01:12 PM
Good, so my statement isn't garbage, you just don't like my choice of words.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 01:33 PM
Umm... I fail to see how that follows... unless by magic/supernatural, you meant something that isnt magical/supernatural (in which case, yes, you should have chose other words). Unless ofc, you mean stage magic... obviously that's real, because magicians perform it. It is however, trickery, not ACTUAL magic.

If you're saying that there is actual magic and actual supernatural events/beings (things which transcend the laws of nature)... then yes, that's garbage, unless you have some pretty good evidence to prove otherwise.

dickbill
11-17-2015, 03:27 PM
How convenient... demand an element which defies description without any clear demonstration that such an element is indeed required. One conjecture built upon another.

Yeah... the tao of physics is rubbish... Its a FANTASTIC demonstration of the thinking of someone who doesnt understand physics. If you want some real physics and like penrose, you should read "Road to Reality"... it only takes 3 or 4 readings to properly wrap your head around.
Well, if the thing cannot be simulated by a computer running a set of algorithms, there is no chance that a language, which is another set of algorithm, will be much better to explain it. And since all physics is computational, it would definitively be very new and difficult to explain.
The Tao of physics points to the similarities between this concept and the Eastern concepts. Note that Erwin Schrodinger, among others who 'understood Physic', was also very curious of these similarities with Eastern philosophies.

Look, you and I differ on this point. I'll point to Gödel and Turing, who, when presented with the same evidence of Gödel incompleteness theorem, reached a divergent conclusion. Gödel admitted that the Mind/Consciousness escaped the finiteness of the Brain, while Turing kept the reductionist point of view. This is reported by Penrose in his book. Gödel was not totally stupid and he perfectly 'understood physic', at least Relativity according to Einstein.

VonBon
11-17-2015, 03:47 PM
A Black Hole is an example of the Supernatural.

Our lack of knowledge to fully comprehend how and why
they exist, makes them Magical.

VonBon
11-17-2015, 03:56 PM
Actually, Physics is based on the perception of the Observer
and how the Observer perceives, will always be influenced
by the environment that Observer resides in.

Kaptive
11-17-2015, 04:02 PM
Re:RH
Cern:
You underestimate my understanding and study RH. When I was talking about Cern it was more in the context that it is the worlds most advanced and expensive experiment and how far we have progressed and what possibilities it may hold with regard to scientific advancement... (maybe leading to interstellar travel?).

I wasn't suggesting "inter-dimensional beings" or demons/jinn/etc were going to be farted out the eye of the collider..........:alien:

Cerns experiments are indicative of our current state of science. We've hit a wall. Many of the natural processes previously attributed to God have been shown to be achievable by man, taking away much of the mistique of higher beings (but actually still can't disprove them as much as science would like to.. and that is an argument I'm not even touching!). Cern is part of the process of trying to go beyond that, to break down that wall. So where will we be in another 100 years? That was the true context. I've studied much of Cerns material.

Though, isn't it interesting on that very subject the language coming from Cern itself.


Extra dimensions would not necessarily consist of alternate worlds, as depicted in science fiction. They could simply be too small for us to see.
http://press.web.cern.ch/backgrounders/extra-dimensions

That to me says that actually, they haven't got a clue as to what they are doing or what they are going to find. Furthermore, saying "not necessarily" is clearly language that implies that alternate worlds actually are a possibility. That's them talking, not me. If they knew any more than that then they would be explicit in the description. But if nothing else, you can clearly see from this example why questions are raised on that subject in many circles. Not to mention their rather dubious 666 logo if you are that way inclined. Not to mention they are the originators of the internet, which eventually will take over money and create a cashless society... a process already well under way. They don't do themselves many favours when it comes to the Christians do they! Are cern just a multi billion dollar internet troll?? :)

Wording:
You're right, regarding Imply over infer when talking about the millions. My bad. But I've spoken to enough rational normal people with zero reason to lie to know that infer is the correct word to use regarding their stories and descriptions of events.

Derren Brown:
Yes, I've seen him live and read much about him... I'd recommend his first book. A smart man to be sure. A great example of a rational thinker.. and entertainer.

Closure:
I need to be clear, I am not some crack pot hair brained village idiot... well, not most of the time.

The truth is, I have studied very uncomfortable subjects that have zero place in a forum such as this. If you can tell me that you understand and have read the works of Crowley, that you can read symbolism (and I'm not talking about codes and conventions of cinema), that you have spent more than a few years collecting your own information regarding the connections between prominent figures and the ultra rich, understanding the beliefs of each major religion and also those which hide in the shadows, people and organisations who claim to channel, the alien/UFO phenomenon etc etc etc ....the length of study is vast and goes far beyond this small list... then you maybe have a place to comment on conspiracies and whether any of them are valid. If however you haven't, then you have limited understanding of the topic. You have an opinion on it, but it doesn't mean you have studied... which is what I was originally bothered by. Chucking everyone into the same pot and seeing them as the same, ultimately dismissing anyone who dares speak about it.

So in the that spirit, I'll do the same... I appreciate your view point, but I already know your view point inside out. I've spent years talking to folks with similar positions and outlooks such as yourself. You might even be suprised to hear that I still share many of your views, and at one time I would have completely agreed with you. But if you study long enough, you begin to see that all is clearly not as it seems and are forced to change your view. Arguing your viewpoint is fine, but ultimately I've heard it all before. You are more interesting to talk to than many as you have a good grasp of the psychlogical and scientific arguments coupled with good conventional rational thinking (which in most arenas is a very desirable trait). But when it comes to this kind of study, that kind of thinking falls short and ultimately actually blinds you to some very real and crazy aspects of humanity... more disturbingly the very powerful and rich aspects of humanity. Not much I can do about that.

You can think I'm mad and discuss/argue such until the cows come home, but I've done my homework and no amount of conversation will erase that length of study and what it points to. I also can't squash that kind of length of study into a few forum posts to actually argue my point. It would essentially become a book and I hope you can respect that. You're a very smart guy, and you know what you know, but that isn't all things. Some things are delusional, others, not so much. How could you possibly know without a full study?

But look... it isn't about what I believe, it is about what others believe... those that shape this world. We are largely run by people who hold extremely strange beliefs. You shouldn't mix up those who study these people with the people who are the subject of the study. Yes, there are plenty of loons out there that make awful dumb connections and totally unfounded statements about reality. But that isn't all people who study this subject.
I don't need to be argued with, I've done my homework.. nearly 2 decades of it, with the last decade being rather intense. The things I have discovered have floored me. I wish I could brain dump on you and get a serious considered reply, but as previously stated, it is like trying to write the contents of a book on a postage stamp... and I'm not even relaying any of my actual studies, merely the philosophy of beliefs. There is no way for you to know the validity of what I have studied, and again even if you did, you'd be required to go and fact check every single bit of it as I have... then make your own conclusions. Have you got 10-20 years to spare?

I firmly believe that if you studied and read everything I have, witnessed what I have you'd hold very different opinions. But we can only imagine can't we.

On that note, I'm trully done on this merry go round. If you reply, then please, make it a closing statement on your own view point otherwise we'll be going forever... and I have stuff to do, as I'm sure you do. We aren't going to solve anything here and we both know it. I think no less of you for your views, and I hope you accept me also... and that all people are different with varied knowledge bases. That no one can be 100% certain of anything, even if it seems irrational. We all have a window on the world and only through sharing the view points can we have any possible hope of understanding one another or the truth of the reality we live in. If you feel that this world is rational and makes total sense, then I envy you I sincerely do!

*deeeep breath*

All the best!

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 04:09 PM
Well, if...

Yes... IF. And if which is predicated on the idea that consciousness cannot be "built" mechanically, which is nothing but speculation on the part of the one stating it. And then a further "if" which states that there must be some "transcendental/undescribable " thing responsible... which is another speculation, built atop, and reliant on the first. Set against which you have the evidence of "brain meddling" from my previous post, which points to a mechanistic connection. Unless, as you attempt to do, you argue that "mind" is something other than memory/personality/cognition/etc... in which case, since these parameters are the only ones available to describe what a mind IS composed of... you've failed to define this thing called "mind", other than some airy fairy abstract object with no clear definition.

At this point, it becomes a circular argument... as if a mind itself cannot be described in any format, then it must follow that only some indescribable, mystic thing must be the bestower of it.

This is nothing but bootstrapping nonsense.

Unless ofc, what you REALLY mean to say is "soul"... in which case you're going off into the supernatural...


A Black Hole is an example of the Supernatural. Our lack of knowledge to fully comprehend how and why they exist, makes them Magical.

Umm... no. A black hole is the result of the NATURAL laws and order of physics (and math actually [sort of], you get a singularity formed at 1+0i in the riemann plane analysis I spoke of before). Supernatural, if you bothered to read the definition you asked for, is something which transcends the laws of nature... defies the laws of physics, that sort of thing. Like the wafer actually becoming (not just representing) the body of jesus at the moment of communion, etc.

Also... I cooked a stew the other night, a delicate balance of lime, maple and cayenne... hard to get right, but came out perfect. It was divine... it was magical.

Colloquially speaking ofc... it was neither sent by god, nor the product of hocus pocus.

Garbage, mate... you're talking unmitigated garbage.

VonBon
11-17-2015, 04:15 PM
Black Holes do defy the laws of physics.

Lol, and you've probably had the bubble guts all day from tryn to cook.

pinkmouse
11-17-2015, 04:59 PM
Black holes do not defy the laws of physics, they work perfectly well. It's the theoretical mathematicians that have problems. And don't get me started on them! :)

Cageman
11-17-2015, 05:03 PM
Credibility personified.

Aliens do exist though... Not here, obviously... but... believing in Aliens is like saying: I believe in life on other planets.

Not sure how that would discredit anyone, to be honest.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 05:30 PM
If you can tell me that you understand and have read the works of Crowley, that you can read symbolism (and I'm not talking about codes and conventions of cinema), that you have spent more than a few years collecting your own information regarding the connections between prominent figures and the ultra rich, understanding the beliefs of each major religion and also those which hide in the shadows, people and organisations who claim to channel, the alien/UFO phenomenon etc etc etc

Actually I have... Im quite familar with crowley, la vey, the crystal stair and all those other usual suspects (including the aforementioned tao of physics). A good portion of my younger years was spent in and around mystical circles of occultists and wiccans and bhuddists and hippies and new agers of all varieties. I know both the bible and koran pretty well, and am also quite familiar with the teachings of buddhism, and shinto, and sikhism (the last of which is probably my favourite of the religions, if you ignore all the supernatural hocus pocus). Im practiced in both rune casting and the tarot, and can decipher runic scripts and also speak and read classical latin (ok, the speaking contains lots of umms and ahhs as I turn things round in my head, its not pretty). Ive heard all the arguments and seen all the theories. I know this "world" like the back of my hand.

But there's one thing I've never seen... EVIDENCE. Not a scrap. Not a shred.

Oh sure, Ive seen a LOT of people present things that they CLAIM are evidence, produce a lot of seemingly tight arguments and correlations (often spurious). But when you drill down into any of it... when you actually start to pick over it in actual detail and examine each of the parts... it ALL unravels, without exception. The absolute BEST you ever get is something that has no clear explanation (usually of its cause though not uncommonly of even what the thing itself is).

Ambiguity, however, is not a reason to accept ANY old explanation that appears to wrap around it, most especially if elements of the explanation itself cant be show to be true in some other term, or if the explanation is constructed so as to try and fit a pre-determined answer (which is what you usually get).

In the words of Armand... I have never received one vision, nor learned one secret, that could convince me of any of it. Its bollocks.


when it comes to this kind of study, that kind of (rational) thinking falls short and ultimately actually blinds you to some very real and crazy aspects of humanity

You're right... ABSOLUTELY right.

This is what I have witnessed time and time again in person after person after person... because the ONLY way you can actually accept ANY of these teachings/secrets/ideas as true is if you put away reason and rationality and rigor. At some point or other, perhaps repeatedly, but often only once, you have to take something, even jsut some little thing... on FAITH. You just have to BELIEVE it. And once you do, that becomes the gateway that everything else, every other "proof" is built upon.

Remember that poster on Mulder's wall... I WANT to believe... That is so often the key, once you want to believe, you will believe, because the only barrier to belief without proof is your own willingness to go there.


We are largely run by people who hold extremely strange beliefs.

Yeah.. umm... I mean Tony Blair was a catholic, thats s strange belief imo... what's your criteria? (dare I even ask... evidence?) Im sure you're probably referring to things like the bohemian grove, etc... Wow, well, some of the strange "rituals/ceremonies" Ive seen people engage in, my goodness... y'know, sometimes people just do weird stuff... Doesnt mean anything. Maybe they think it does... but it doesnt. Its just theatre, nothing more.

As for the whole, poweful entities/groups in control of the world thing... Well, obviously to some extent. If goldman sachs decide to go short Ģ100 billion on the pound that's going to wreak havok in the british economy, no doubt about it (sorros' 10bn short in advance of black monday did that even and he was just one guy). Opec can manipulate oil prices almost as they see fit, affecting economies ad peoples lives across the world as they did in 73+. Those with big muscles can overpower those with smaller ones.

That however is very different from the idea there's there's some "cabal" with some kind of "master plan".

Again... speculation... at BEST.

I almost fear to say (because now you'll think Im a shill), that my own family is an "old" family (you can look us up online if you dont believe me)... We come from normandy and originally have links to england after coming with william the conqueror. Ancestors have sat in parliament and advised kings and my father still has the lordship of the family lands in kent, and the bush's (yes, those bush's) are third cousins (or something I cant remember the exact genealogy).

I can promise you... there is no conspiracy of wealthy ancient families in control of everything and everyone. Its a fantasy. All there is, is competition, and greed, ad from that one man will always have the whip hand over some other, but what else do you expect... we're apes, we form hierarchical societies, ad fight over the fattest fruits.

I understand though the desire to believe that there's some "illuminati" (or whatever) running the show... because even though its portrayed as dark and shadowy, the idea is actually comforting, because it means there's someone there, at the levers.

The truth is FAR more terrifying.

No-one is in control... This world is utter chaos, and all of us are trapped together on a runaway train with no brakes, and no one in the cab to warn us of when the crash is coming.

- - - Updated - - -


Black Holes do defy the laws of physics.

*facepalm*

VonBon
11-17-2015, 05:37 PM
From my understanding, the “Laws” of physics become “Laws” once they can be upheld mathematically.

If they can't get the math correct, then the "Laws" that we have built our understanding of physics upon,
are indeed being defied.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 05:44 PM
In which case your understanding is wrong.

Furthermore... you CAN get the math to work for black holes. Black holes were first "discovered" as a consequence of einsteins field equations in general relativity, where they presented a curiosity that many thought pointed to a problem with the theory... it was only later that they were actually "found" out in space (and found is a tough work since seeing a black hole is somewhat problematic).

Continuing this, you then have the later work of hawking on the behaviour of information crossing the vent horizon, leading to a mathematical solution suggesting some kind of outflow, dubbed hawking radiation... somehting again, which there has since been observational and experiemntal evidence to suggest is a real phenomena.

prometheus
11-17-2015, 05:48 PM
Aliens do exist though... Not here, obviously... but... believing in Aliens is like saying: I believe in life on other planets.

Not sure how that would discredit anyone, to be honest.

Not empiricly proven though..so your statement is a guess..a good one though...but I am just a pain in the:D
I am myself utterly convinced of that there are life on other planets, but frankly..I have become more and more skeptic to that only a few or any alien life (in this galaxy) having reached our level of civilization..and beyond, itīs just my own sceptical thoughts on it..has nothing to do with what in fact is...unless I am right in my sceptic views, no one can tell :)
if you would look at how many stars and planets and circumstances..you would believe there would be a lot more civilizations..but the signals? the signals?

There are however people not beliving in any life on other planets at all, earth is the center etc..so that statement is a bit odd too..I think:D but I get the point.

donīt believe in aliens ever having visited earth either, but wonīt go in deeper on that.

I am curious about thoughts on the silence from civilizations? if they have the tech to transmitt...I am thinking about these variables, those of you reflecting on there is more..please do advice.

1. are they hiding their own presence and signals?
2. are the distances and cosmos in our galaxy so far and so much interference that signals simply die out..they are simply not strong enough to be noticed by us?
3. is it simply so..that an Alien civilisation may have lived and died out long before we were able to intercept any signals...or maybe they just are in the cradle to being able to communicate with transmissions?
4. are we on the brink to receive signals, itīs just a matter of time and distance?

VonBon
11-17-2015, 05:52 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law

Physicist are not at a point where we can predict what happens in a Black Hole.

prometheus
11-17-2015, 05:53 PM
By the way..I was mentioning my own confusion to why twitter and facebook donīt shut down IS proven or extremism instigators accounts.
Now it seems that the hacker network group Anonymous... have been able to hack it and they have closed a lot of accounts, itīs a hack, so they are probably doing something criminal by hacking..though I am not going to sleep badly for them doing so.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 05:59 PM
Intersting... though all 4 of those are advancements to the fermi paradox I mentioned before.

Here's my own thinking, which isnt on the list, ad which Ive not heard anyone else advance as a possible explanation.

1... They're "dolphins". That is to say, alien life could be as intelligent as you like, but if evolution enver gifted them bodies that allowed for the manipulation and development of the most basic of tools... no civilization.

2... What I call, the energy horizon. Despite all our ingenuity, human civilization has been able to develop because we have energy resources on this planet... namely, fossil fuels. Now these fuels are only available to us for 2 reasons... firstly, the abundance and types of life that preceeded our own (all the lil trees and fishes whose squished remains compose the fuels), ad the geological processes that created them. Now those geological processes are VERY important, because they are what made the fuel from the bodies, and they only took place for a certain perios in earth's history. They happened to cease long ago, thus... if you could wait around a few million years, there wouldnt be any "new" fossil fuel made.

Thus... it becomes exceedingly possible that some alien civilization never had such resources... perhaps the processes were not present, or not long lasting enough, perhaps a intelligent species evolved earlier on in the planets life time (equivalent to before the dinosaurs in our own timeline)... or perhaps there were fewer resources, and they ran out in (their eqivalent) mid 19th century.

probiner
11-17-2015, 06:01 PM
Well every community has its Richard Dawkins and we can still love him... There's also those aspects that undermine credibility, that's not measured by how well you use a dictionary or how many physics books you've read or how articulated or subtle (or not) you can insult people... it's the authoritarianism and the lack of empathy.
You certainly could read about love (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13&version=HCSB), ah! :D

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 06:03 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law

Physicist are not at a point where we can predict what happens in a Black Hole.

*facepalm" v2...

Thats not the same as supernatural... go back and read the definition. Read... comprehend.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 06:14 PM
that's not measured by how well you use a dictionary or how many physics books you've read or articulated

Books... facts... articulation of argument. yeah, worthless.


subtle (or not) you can insult people

I do my best to aim for not... If you're talking tosh, I will just come right out and say it rather than hint... Tosh!


lack of empathy.

Waaa... he hurt my feelings.

Careful, Ill start drawing pictures of mohammed next, then we'll all be in the dung heap, but at least this thread might get back on track.

VonBon
11-17-2015, 06:18 PM
Well we didn't create black Holes, and unless the Aliens made them,
I guess I'll assume that a Black Hole is a part of Nature, and for the
fact that we don't fully understand what, how, and why about Black Holes,
Its safe to say that they are indeed "Supernatural".

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 06:24 PM
You must either be joking... or drunk... or I dont know what.

If a black hole is part of nature... then by definition it is not supernatural.

VonBon
11-17-2015, 06:26 PM
Well he coulda been talkn to me, but you right , lets get back on topic.

as long as you know I'm right, ;D

- - - Updated - - -

Its supernatural because we don't understand it.

VonBon
11-17-2015, 06:27 PM
So I Win, now go to bed

Kaptive
11-17-2015, 06:28 PM
Ah, it all makes sense! You know everything known to man. I guess we can all go home. Pack your bags human race, Craig has it all sorted out. You'd best do a video tutorial for the human race and then we can put the whole thing to bed I guess. I mean who needs Einstein? We have the foremost genius and vessel of all known information on the planet right here in the LW forum. Who'd have thunk it! Why are we even bothering talking about AI when all we need to do is upload you into Cerns computer matrix and plug you into everyones home?

Side note: I just spoke to God, and he says you've out thought him and has promptly vanished from existence. You've got the keys my laddo! Good luck with that. ;)

I'm not even sure why you're here. You don't even need to converse with anyone! You should probably be able to talk to yourself endlessly in 15 different languages while preparing gourmet food for the starving. Don't forget to finish carving the replacement statue of David with your little toe while you're at it. After that you can go and lecture scientists the world over on "how to do it right".

You say its so, and no one else is right or has anything to offer. Correct? The irony, is that you have studied all these things supposedly, and yet there is something you have clearly missed from the whole experience, and sadly, listening to you talk, I doubt you'll ever find it either.

Good luck with it all lol. It's a cold cold world over in Jersey. Can you work out why? *eyeroll*

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 06:51 PM
Well forgive me all to hell for being broadly read, experienced and educated... Im sorry that the sum of your knowledge extends to the printed ramblings of madmen. Did I say I know everything? Nope... but sadly, I do know of the arcane and mystic which you seem to think is your privilege alone here to "understand". Sorry I peed on your shoes. All I did was tell you where Ive been, what Ive heard and what Ive seen... and in the "mystical" side... it amounts to nothing. Nothing!

Please if you think Ive missed something... PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE.

Oh Im sorry, I forgot, you CANT, because rational thought and reliance on evidence "blinds" you to these arcane "truths".

You're right... I have missed something, as I clearly said... BELIEF WITHOUT REASON OR EVIDENCE.

Here's some arcane wisdom for you, courtesy of Lucretius...

Quippa ita formido mortalis contient omnis, quod multa in terris fieri caeloque tuentur quorum operum causas nulla ratione videre possunt ac fieri divino numine rentur.

prometheus
11-17-2015, 06:57 PM
Intersting... though all 4 of those are advancements to the fermi paradox I mentioned before.

Here's my own thinking, which isnt on the list, ad which Ive not heard anyone else advance as a possible explanation.

1... They're "dolphins". That is to say, alien life could be as intelligent as you like, but if evolution enver gifted them bodies that allowed for the manipulation and development of the most basic of tools... no civilization.

2... What I call, the energy horizon. Despite all our ingenuity, human civilization has been able to develop because we have energy resources on this planet... namely, fossil fuels. Now these fuels are only available to us for 2 reasons... firstly, the abundance and types of life that preceeded our own (all the lil trees and fishes whose squished remains compose the fuels), ad the geological processes that created them. Now those geological processes are VERY important, because they are what made the fuel from the bodies, and they only took place for a certain perios in earth's history. They happened to cease long ago, thus... if you could wait around a few million years, there wouldnt be any "new" fossil fuel made.

Thus... it becomes exceedingly possible that some alien civilization never had such resources... perhaps the processes were not present, or not long lasting enough, perhaps a intelligent species evolved earlier on in the planets life time (equivalent to before the dinosaurs in our own timeline)... or perhaps there were fewer resources, and they ran out in (their eqivalent) mid 19th century.


The nr1, is a bit contradictory I think, if itīs dolphins and similar and very intelligent..doesnīt matter, at least not for what I had in mind regarding talking civilization..from my viewpoint I was wondering about a civilization capable of producing radio transmissions at least that would indicate a signal in the cosmos for us to pick up, I am most convinced there are a lot of dolphin types of life swimming out there..but thatīs another story...it imposes a question about life forms being way more intelligent than us, and may not need to advance with technology as we know it, and they may not be physicly able to acheive it..so from that point of view it is interesting.

The nr2...not sure about that..seems a bit far fetched, that assumes the civilization has very little intelligence to advance with other sources, wind water, sun..or their planet isnīt able to provide enough of that too.
and if they have no such intelligence, it has no place in ranking of civilizations in that order of highly intellegent life we are looking for..or trying to place and rank with these discussions.

these conclusions from be is taking a point of view on that they are highly intellegent and has the means to use technology....even if the energy resources have shut down, that means a certain time frame that would have happened within, and the question would be..if it has happened long before we started to watch the skies?

a bit sad though..we have only begun watching the skies..in a time frame that is in perspective a drop in the ocean, who knows what tomorrow will bring.:) and how should we approach them is a grand question, the
James Woods approach or the Jodie Foster approach? and as Stephen Hawking warns...according to him..they are most likely to be hostile, though I donīt agree with that most brilliant mind.
Brings back on topic to being afraid of different cultures etc.

"the weak is meat..and the strong do eat" from cloud atlas.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRoj3jK37Vc

probiner
11-17-2015, 06:59 PM
Books... facts... articulation of argument. yeah, worthless.



I do my best to aim for not... If you're talking tosh, I will just come right out and say it rather than hint... Tosh!



Waaa... he hurt my feelings.

Careful, Ill start drawing pictures of mohammed next, then we'll all be in the dung heap, but at least this thread might get back on track.

It's ok mate, there's still time for you :D

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 07:04 PM
The nr2...not sure about that..seems a bit far fetched, that assumes the civilization has very little intelligence to advance with other sources, wind water, sun..or their planet isnīt able to provide enough of that too.

You're not thinking about the process of advancement.

Without a high density HOT burning fuel... you cant make steel. Without steel, all your other technologies cant get off the ground. Youre' stuck in the middle ages (at best) for ever.

dickbill
11-17-2015, 07:07 PM
I am not gonna argue to defend the ET story, but Penrose argumentation deserves to be defended.

Penrose initially talks about the process of 'Understanding' or 'Awareness' in mathematicians.
His contention is that the mental process that is taking place inside the Mathematician's Mind, when he 'Understands' or discovers a mathematical truth is not reducible to a set of algorithmic rules, because Gödel Incompleteness theorem would prevent these rules to discover new rules on heir own, or if it was the case, then the theorem would prevent the rules to ascertain their own truth.
Therefore, since Mathematician 'understanding' is part of the general cognition process in humans, Penrose 's contention is that there is something not reducible to a 'Turing Machine' in the human mind. Said otherwise, something is going on that is not computable by any computer during the process of Understanding or Awareness. Awareness/Understanding, whatever you want to call it is NOT computable totally on any machine, and that includes self learning machines or quantum computers.

Even if the Brain was 99% reducible to a Computing machine that could be run by a Neuron Network simulation, the 1% part that remains non-computable makes the process as a whole non-reducible. The source of non-computability is speculation, I pass on it and I don't want to discuss it.
But the part above remains strong and untouchable. To me it is not impossible that Gödel's theorem is the first obstacle that Reductionism is facing on theoretical logic ground.

Reductionism (and avatars such as Darwinism) may be true, but then, somebody has to produce additional solutions to explain how it seems inconsistent with Gödel's theorem.

djwaterman
11-17-2015, 07:09 PM
Holy Sh-t, David Icke, alien visitation, the government did it, magic is real and we think the universe into existence, just, unbelievable. Way to go supporting France. How long before someone brings up the Jews, not long at this rate. R.H. is like a grounded rock in a mudslide of lunacy.

prometheus
11-17-2015, 07:16 PM
You're not thinking about the process of advancement.

Without a high density HOT burning fuel... you cant make steel. Without steel, all your other technologies cant get off the ground. Youre' stuck in the middle ages (at best) for ever.

Hmm..so what about them being able to harnessing the sun, assuming they have vegetarion, water, sand..wouldnīt it be possible for them to construct materials from that, they could have completly different compound materials, creating lenses to create fire..use chisel etc.?
What about vulcanic sources?
not sure that thesis about necessary fossile fuel...though I am not an expert..just guessing here, with vulcanic sources they could very well have adapted techniques to master conductor elements.
with vulcanic sources..why need a fire for starters? or fossile fuel.

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 07:26 PM
How long before someone brings up the Jews

Well I mentioned goldman sachs in passing a few posts back... though probs not in the kind of reference you're fearing.


I am not gonna argue to defend the ET story, but Penrose argumentation deserves to be defended.... Reductionism (and avatars such as Darwinism) may be true, but then, somebody has to produce additional solutions to explain how it seems inconsistent with Gödel's theorem.

Sure, I get all that... I know what you're saying and what the argument is, but penrose's idea of what the "mind" actually is (or how it works) is still not something that has any real definition. I've pointed out that a mind is defined by its ability to produce cognition, hold memory, express personality, etc, and the clear evidence of a "brain mechanic" link... which you say isnt necessarily what a mind is whilst failing to define or describe what it actually is (other than rely on the supposition of an indescribable "thing"... somewhere).

This, and penrose's points are mere SPECULATION... nothing more (there isnt even a proper theorem here). Further, it supposes that the mind is impossible according to godels theorem by assertion that the mind must be an arithmetic machine, which isnt necessarily so. Clearly there is any amount of evidence of the "building" of complexity in nature (from the formation of matter through to the organisation of life itself from the basic to complex forms) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organized_criticality And viewed through this lens, the evolution of the mind becomes perfectly reducable.

Given that reductionism explains so much, there exists a very strong probability that there isnt some special "gotcha". That only comes about if you dont take a step back and thus regard the mind as somehow "special", which... is kind of just a new fangled way of saying "divine".

- - - Updated - - -


Hmm..so what about them being able to harnessing the sun, assuming they have vegetarion, water, sand..wouldnīt it be possible for them to construct materials from that

You try building a rocket ship out of vegetables and sand and let me know how that works out.


why need a fire for starters?

How else do you melt, and thus form metals into the shapes you need to make machines?

prometheus
11-17-2015, 07:29 PM
Well I mentioned goldman sachs in passing a few posts back... though probs not in the kind of reference you're fearing.



Sure, I get all that... I know what you're saying and what the argument is, but penrose's idea of what the "mind" actually is (or how it works) is still not something that has any real definition. I've pointed out that a mind is defined by its ability to produce cognition, hold memory, express personality, etc, and the clear evidence of a "brain mechanic" link... which you say isnt necessarily what a mind is whilst failing to define or describe what it actually is (other than rely on the supposition of an indescribable "thing"... somewhere).

This, and penrose's points are mere SPECULATION... nothing more (there isnt even a proper theorem here). Further, it supposes that the mind is impossible according to godels theorem by assertion that the mind must be an arithmetic machine, which isnt necessarily so. Clearly there is any amount of evidence of the "building" of complexity in nature (from the formation of matter through to the organisation of life itself from the basic to complex forms) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organized_criticality And viewed through this lens, the evolution of the mind becomes perfectly reducable.

Given that reductionism explains so much, there exists a very strong probability that there isnt some special "gotcha". That only comes about if you dont take a step back and thus regard the mind as somehow "special", which... is kind of just a new fangled way of saying "divine".

- - - Updated - - -



You try building a rocket ship out of vegetables and sand and let me know how that works out.
did I exclude metal?

with vulcanic sources and all stone and metals, a rocket ship is doable, that would instigate the need of a ship..foremost the topic is signals..transmission then again...vulcanic sources has power enough to heat metal..so I am not sure what you are talking about.
vulcanics are not fossile fuel to what I understand, nor metal.
with enough harnessing of waterpower you have energy, same with the sun and vulcanics...I didnīt exlcude metal.

shrox
11-17-2015, 07:31 PM
131068

prometheus
11-17-2015, 07:32 PM
131068

Please do a ship made of vegetables and sand.

shrox
11-17-2015, 07:34 PM
Please do a ship made of vegetables and sand.

With bananas for outriggers?

RebelHill
11-17-2015, 07:37 PM
vulcanic sources has power enough to heat metal

So your plan is to what... climb into a volcano? I suppose you're imagining that you could use one of those big cauldrons you see in furnaces, lowering it down, etc.

Problem there, is the cauldron is made of metal, which you need to make in your volcano, for which you needed the cauldron, for which... etc.

Also... Have you any clue how many furnaces and smelting plants exist across the world just to provide for our civilisation as it stands now?? You're gonna need a lot of volcanoes, and in just the right places.

prometheus
11-17-2015, 07:38 PM
With bananas for outriggers?

That would be fine...try keepem ecological.

:)

prometheus
11-17-2015, 07:47 PM
So your plan is to what... climb into a volcano? I suppose you're imagining that you could use one of those big cauldrons you see in furnaces, lowering it down, etc.

Problem there, is the cauldron is made of metal, which you need to make in your volcano, for which you needed the cauldron, for which... etc.

Also... Have you any clue how many furnaces and smelting plants exist across the world just to provide for our civilisation as it stands now?? You're gonna need a lot of volcanoes, and in just the right places.

I donīt have a plan..what gave you that idea? :D
why should anyone need to climb in to a vulcano?

there are probably a multitude of ways an intelligent civilization can harness vulcanic power ..putting up a suggestion to climb in to a volcano?..well oh my...
cauldron? so are the magma flowing in a metal land area? well in fact it is..sort of, heard about stone and hardened lava? even us humans started to work with stone tools...how about making a stone cauldron capable of containing lava?

I am not referencing how many vulcanos there are on earth..havenīt you seen star wars revenge of the sith? :
"Only a sith deals in absolutes"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

lightscape
11-17-2015, 07:51 PM
I find this video about mass migration disturbing.
http://buzzpo.com/this-is-the-most-disturbing-muslim-refugee-video-you-will-ever-see/

germany, sweden, etc

prometheus
11-17-2015, 07:54 PM
I find this video about mass migration disturbing.
http://buzzpo.com/this-is-the-most-disturbing-muslim-refugee-video-you-will-ever-see/

germany, sweden, etc

"fear leads to anger anger leads to hate hate leads to suffering"

prometheus
11-17-2015, 07:57 PM
I forgot this..

Rebel hill said"Also... Have you any clue how many furnaces and smelting plants exist across the world just to provide for our civilisation as it stands now?? You're gonna need a lot of volcanoes, and in just the right places."

not necessary a lot of vulcanos, enough to provide for other technology to harness other sources like one or two suns or waterfall power etc...you restrict your thoughts to vulcanos as the only source, that is not viable
sun and water can provide for civilization alone, not in our civilization though..when oil is more lucrative for many countries and in arabia..than sunpower which could within some areas over there provide them with clean energy., but its most likely not the technology stopping it.

lightscape
11-17-2015, 08:02 PM
"fear leads to anger anger leads to hate hate leads to suffering"

So that's not happening in sweden? The people interviewed about how they kick and punch other people just for kicks is whacked.

prometheus
11-17-2015, 08:11 PM
So that's not happening in sweden? The people interviewed about how they kick and punch other people just for kicks is whacked.

Nope...the newspapers in sweden as far as I know, havenīt reported such violent actions here in sweden..that report seem a bit biased and constructied..canīt be sure though.

there will probably will be conflicts, I myself do not believe two cultures with diametral beliefs can cope well and in peace together(though I wish it could, not at this stage..but at the same time, apart from the risk of getting immigrants in to the country behaving badly and influencing badly on our society..that is
a variable that is true..then there is another variable of fantastic human beings wanting to live in piece and fleeing for their lifes from war and mutilation horror.
itīs not that black and white or absolute ...we got to have not one eye opened..but at least two..syncrhonizing the picture properly.

The problem in sweden today, it is more of..many are afraid of what will happen, we had a guy who was denied asylum..who went berserk and killed a complete swedish stranger, but I wouldnīt say itīs the same thing as above, and that is pretty much it.

then the problem is that we do not have enough facilities..so right now the refugees have to sleep outside.
the thereīs the fear that they will be a strain on the economic system if we can not get work for them.

silly facts..today sweden has beaten the danish, we are now off to france for european championship in soccer.
before the game, the danish was mocking swedish icons in a commercial, after we had won..the swedes mocked the danes back, calling them humiliating things....with some perspectiv, just sports and the old wars are not
present anymore...culture and political and religious wise..we are quite close to each other,same goes with norway and the fins.
a completly different story in the middle east today.

prometheus
11-17-2015, 08:54 PM
One person I have admired immensly...you know who...

Carl Sagan on alien civilisations...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-yqVHrQP2Q

c.1
11-17-2015, 09:14 PM
je vous remercie beaucoup Steve, vous ętes tolérant de ce fil.

(Please pardon my high school French but it seemed fitting)

Wow, what a turn topics.

We Canadains recently voted out a PM that ran on platform of fear and mistrust of the world and each other (they actually tried to institute a "snitch line" where people could "snitch" on thier nieghbours, this was directly aimed at the Muslim community)
We( as a nation ) chose hope and a promise of a brighter future.
I, on a personal level, interact with people from EVERY religion on a daily basis and I have yet to fear any of them.

At the most base level recent terrorist attacks throughout the world must come down to (at the lowest level) as some sadistic jerk offs that just really get off on hurting, killing and scaring people. Nothing more. Wrap that up in whatever grand cause that suits your ideal and you can justify just about any atrocity.

As far as refugees go, well I was recently dealing with my father's estate and I came across his German birth certificate still bearing the swastika from the 1930's, if fear reigned back in the 1950's he never would have been allowed into Canada ( my other grandparents were Brithish, how my mother and father reconcilled their differences about WWII I will never know)

the more I research the ongoing Syrian conflict(s)( this appears to be the latest flash point for global conflict) the more I realize what a global [email protected]@k it is and how it isn't going to end any time soon

I only hope that we as a global community embrace a future of hope and promise over a future of fear and despair, and I mean that in the most secular way.

prometheus
11-17-2015, 09:21 PM
je vous remercie beaucoup Steve, vous ętes tolérant de ce fil.

(Please pardon my high school French but it seemed fitting)

Wow, what a turn topics.

We Canadains recently voted ot a PM that ran on platform of fear and mistrust of the world and each other (they actually tried to institute a "snitch line" where people could "snitch" on thier nieghbours, this was directly aimed at the Muslim community)
We( as a nation ) chose hope and a promise of a brighter future.
I, on a personal level, interact with people from EVERY religion on a daily basis and I have yet to fear any of them.

At the most base level recent terrorist attacks throughout the world must come down to (at the lowest level) as some sadistic jerk offs that just really get off on hurting, killing and scaring people. Nothing more. Wrap that up in whatever grand cause that suits your ideal and you can justify just about any atrocity.

As far as refugees go, well I was recently dealing with my father's estate and I came across his German birth certificate still bearing the swastika from the 1930's, if fear reigned back in the 1950's he never would have been allowed into Canada ( my other grandparents were Brithish, how my mother and father reconcilled their differences about WWII I will never know)

the more I research the ongoing Syrian conflict(s)( this appears to be the latest flash point for global conflict) the more I realize what a global [email protected]@k it is and how it isn't going to end any time soon

I only hope that we as a global community embrace a future of hope and promise over a future of fear and despair, and I mean that in the most secular way.

I admit to having fear of religious fanatics, it is a real threat..and also a fear and scepticism of different cultures that are way different than what I am grown up with....but I think it is wise to take a look at one self, and how that affects oneself and others in society..asking oneself if itīs balanced, how much does it affect my opinon of all other immigrants etc.
I want to understand the pshycological aspects of it, to understand myself and others and what is happening in my country and the other nations...if I donīt understand the factors, then I would be living with illusions. and it will be as a veil or curtain in front of me ..stopping me from seeing the truth at that given time.

My reflections on the racism and alien hostile debate..In sweden it sort of gets too focused on racism ..color and skin, and the elite politics avoids talking about other issues, itīs like they are closing the debate with ..do not be rascist or alien hostile...to me that sounds like the politicians are closing the door or putting a curtain to understand the mechanisms around fear and hatred between cultures, when trying to have a debate about cultural fear..fear of religious extremism etc..the elite politics strikes down and utters racist...and there by shutting down all possible analyses of all mechanism behind the fear.

probiner
11-17-2015, 11:09 PM
Holy Sh-t, David Icke, alien visitation, the government did it, magic is real and we think the universe into existence, just, unbelievable. Way to go supporting France.

France doesn't need your support or mine or anyone on this forum. They had a mass shooting which everyone of course repudiates, and no one here as of my knowledge is able to do squat about it, other than rallying for peace when people start to talk blindly about aggression. More lives will roll... in other cities.
The victim's family and the population however could use some truth. They won't get their family members back, but at least you don't add to the atrocity, the feeding of "baloney" to them.
No one mentioned aliens as an explanation as of the events of Paris or NYC, so I don't understand your mention of it as a "thing". I, personally was the first to that someone presenting interesting point believed in aliens, just to be clear about it, as I don't believe in aliens, but(!) I can still easily hear those same people points, especially if they are by no means based on aliens.
Governments nowadays are as much as your nanny as a nursing farmer. 2008 to now was just to show how much they have them squeezed. Libor rigging scandal in 2012 affected around the world many local governments as it was a benchmark rate. Who went to jail? A 35 year old patsy, instead of the "sportsmanship" gentlemen club that decided them. Just last friday, same thing reported (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/14/business/dealbook/british-prosecutor-accuses-10-of-rigging-benchmark-interest-rate.html?_r=0). And it goes on. It's no conspiracy theory, it's right there, just look at the interest rates:

http://i.imgur.com/yKQMqII.png

That's financial and economic terrorism right there, undermining everyone but a few selected, that just become billionaire(1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsT4KQyxXpc), 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6A2PN9gMbA)) on what? Producing something? No... buyback stocks! ah!

And I find funny people say religions cause wars. Is NATO a religion? Might as well be, by all the meat grinding it produces or funds or is looking for to do.
Is there a law of physics for bs? There ought to be by now, it's such common matter...

Want to support french people? Keep demanding for truth and peace, write to governants, and on top, justice, which is a "finite resource" more than oil or gold, lately. Did someone executed/financed/orchestrated a terrorist attack? Bring them to justice, trial them, done. If not where is the civilized legal system at work?

prometheus
11-17-2015, 11:19 PM
France doesn't need your support or mine or anyone on this forum. They had a mass shooting and no one here as of my knowledge is able to do squat about it, other than rallying for peace when anyone starts to talk about blind aggression, because more lives will roll.
The victim's family and the population however could use some truth. They won't get their family members back, but at least you don't add to the atrocity, the feeding them "baloney" to them.
No one mentioned aliens as an explanation as of the events of Paris or NYC, so I don't understand your mention of it as a "thing". I, personally was the first to that someone presenting interesting point believed in aliens, just to be clear about it as I don't believe in them, but I can still hear people about points that are by no means based on aliens.
Governments nowadays are as much as your nanny as a nursing farmer. 2008 to know was just to show how much they have them squeezed. Libor rigging scandal in 2012 affect not just private people but even many local governments around the world as it was a benchmark rate. Who went to jail? A 35 year old patsy. Just last friday, same thing reported (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/14/business/dealbook/british-prosecutor-accuses-10-of-rigging-benchmark-interest-rate.html?_r=0). And it goes on. It's no conspiracy theory, it's right there, just look at the interest rates:
http://i.imgur.com/yKQMqII.png

That's terrorism right there, undermining everyone but a few selected.

And I find funny people say religions cause wars. Is NATO a religion? Might as well be, by all the meat grinding it produces or funds or is looking for to do.

France? doesnīt need support?...
well, not likely "France" is lurking these forum in search for support they donīt need..either, there might however be folks around here from france, or living in france or actually knowing someone that died..and why would this thread be useless if someone wantīs to talk about it?


not related perhaps...but, a swedish girl 25 years old was killed in the attack too, and another swedish girl of 23 years old was wounded...not anyone I knew as I know of so far, but people in these forums might have had friends, relatives from other countries harmed or killed, I am not sure if they have published a list of nationality victims?

lightscape
11-17-2015, 11:34 PM
religious fanatics, it is a real threat

Yep. Too much of anything ain't good.
Even software(apple) or hardware(apple) fanatics is lunacy.

probiner
11-17-2015, 11:43 PM
not anyone I knew as I know of so far, but people in these forums might have had friends, relatives from other countries harmed or killed, I am not sure if they have published a list of nationality victims?

Killed by who? Enabled by who? For what end? Anyone standing trial? Evidence being presented? Any report out? This is a serious problem, but can we be adults about it and start things from the beggining? Or the only thing that will make people jump of the couch is a canceled footbal match or even whole competition (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-3322608/Germany-fears-repeat-Paris-attacks-national-team-s-football-match-Holland-cancelled-90-minutes-kick-rock-concert-evacuated.html)?

Do people understand if they want to stop the flow of migrants they have rise against the fueling of war by the organizations their own countries belong too, enable, and surrender authority to?

prometheus
11-17-2015, 11:48 PM
Yep. Too much of anything ain't good.
Even software(apple) or hardware(apple) fanatics is lunacy.

Lightwave fanatics?

I think it is interesting to debate and reflect on fears, seems like so many similar processes in the human mind works from fundamental places, and transcends over to all kinds of places, we can walk in the forest at night..itīs dark..we are afraid, why are we afraid..because we donīt know whats in the dark in the forest..it is unknown, once we have our flashlight or walk in daylight..we can more clearly see that there is nothing there waiting to attack us.
I think one can draw similar connections to fear of different cultures, religion etc...or even within ourself, maybe we have relations..yealousy and we canīt cope with it..we can not see whatīs really going on within ourself, or doesnīt want to acknowledge it.

I am thinking of some Peter Gabriel reflections about himself diggin a bit deeper in to why his relations failed, it ended up in therapy..he was talking about inner demons, and once you drag them out to the light, they are not as scary anymore or they donīt affect you in the same way..he wrote "digging in the dirt" after that I think.

prometheus
11-17-2015, 11:50 PM
Killed by who? Enabled by who? For what end? Anyone standing trial? Evidence being presented? Any report out? This is a serious problem, but can we be adults about it and start things from the beggining? Or the only thing that will make people jump of the couch is a canceled footbal match or even whole competition (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-3322608/Germany-fears-repeat-Paris-attacks-national-team-s-football-match-Holland-cancelled-90-minutes-kick-rock-concert-evacuated.html)?

Probiner...really, I didnīt talk about santa claus going on rampage...this is the parise thread, was I really so unclear so you didnīt understand that a swedish girl was killed in the attack in parise?
Evidence? itīs all over the swedish newspapers..what more do you need, itīs official.
trial? whatīs that got to do with it?
whats the point about talking about that now?

I think it is safe to say it wasnīt a zombie on rampage :)

Regarding stopping immigrant flow, well..I believe the flow would be quite large without the war, this war is a necessary evil..and it will take time to end, but I believe it will end, I donīt believe we can stop the flow by simply not engaging in war against IS.

prometheus
11-18-2015, 12:03 AM
Nato a religion?..not likely.

Religion by itself causing wars...not likely, it is however a perfect growth ground for fear, control, hatred of men..instigating war against non believers..has been and will be for a long long time...so honestly..I have been questioning the freedom of religion thing..as being the way to go...but it would be horrible to strike down too on people who wantīs to follow a religion they believe in with a warm heart..itīs not as black and white at all times.

probiner
11-18-2015, 12:17 AM
itīs all over the swedish newspapers
Didn't question the girl's death... re-read. But when you mention the media I can only remember Conan O'Brian pushing envelopes... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuG8Mr1QIvE


Regarding stopping immigrant flow, well..I believe the flow would be quite large without the war, this war is a necessary evil..and it will take time to end, but I believe it will end, I donīt believe we can stop the flow by simply not engaging in war against IS.
You belive people would move with their families like that, obviously unprepared. You would stay at your home town with your family if people started to die left and right? Was Lybia a necessary war? Was Afghanistan a necessary war? Iraq maybe? Have we learned nothing? Do you not see when the Ponzi scheme is over and there's no more bubbles to burst, they take you to war so people don't revolt against all the wrong doing, which can't be hidden anymore? War, that great reset button. It's just it's not really an actual war so far is it? Just grinding of weaker people... Do you know US said that syrian the president "Must go" (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-17578802) three years ago? Yeah the same Lybian war star (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmIRYvJQeHM). See a pattern?.... Everywhere these people go and maim and kill what grows there in replacement? Your dear Islamic extremists... Just backtrack military interventions and there you go... It's like they're growing crops of them.
Don't worry mate, we have no house cleaning to do, air strikes will make it all cleaner...

Maybe it's a religion, that you simply didn't know you were following, who knows...
Just need to put 2 (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-executions-amnesty-international-beheadings-death-sentences-rate-under-king-salman-10470456.html) and 2 (http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/04/03/404456/US-to-refuel-Saudi-warplanes-in-Yemen) together. But hey... It's just some yemenis... whatever... right? No help needed ...

sami
11-18-2015, 12:39 AM
[QUOTE=RebelHill;1455382]Its full metal jacket (or paraphrasing full metal jacket).


...

sami
11-18-2015, 01:04 AM
When attempting to be open minded, one must be careful not to become feeble minded and admit any ol crackpot idea into the discussion. When people start on about aliens, the illuminati, secret energy weapons straight out of star trek, et al (whilst presenting nothing more than conjecture masquerading as proof)... it's bonkers... flat out bonkers. And yes... the followers and believers in such all belong in the one box together, the box to which the mind retreats when it feels somehow trapped with little control over its own life, and thus presumes that there is some great, hidden, external actor pulling all the strings, be that a government agency, secret society, or deity. Cultist belief just is what it is.

Furthermore, if the press no longer investigate... then how is it that we get revelations such as last weeks disclosure of both corporate and state corruption in international athletics, broken by a german investigative reporter? Or going back to "larger" matters... how is it that the story of senior level CIA knowing there were no wmd in iraq but overuling the lower officers broke? Or the revelation of CIA black sites? Or the good ol "dodgy dossier" story (closer to home) came out?? You think all these things were just in some press release?

Even if we take the idea that "you cant believe everything you read in the papers" is absolutely true... do you really think that just swallowing as fact any ol information on youtube is somehow better? A platform thats open to the point of allowing any old crank to get worldwide exposure?

And whilst you can cite the revelations of the snowdens and the mannings all you like, all they really reveal is insight into the finite detail of things, the who, the how, etc. That the NSA, GCHQ, etc were/are spying on people was NOT a revelation. These are not secret organisations who very existence and purpose had been hidden up until then.

All this "shadow enemy" thinking is really no different than times past when the same minded folk would go round blaming the ills of the world on devils or witches or vampires... The only difference is that if you used those same words today, you'd obviously be crazy.

This is a red herring trotted out for the feeble minded you speak of.

It is a given that paranoia, irrational thought, and lack of critical, scientific, thinking is misguided at best. Yet your argument belies the fact that there are indeed shills on the internet paid to wax crackpot to make other more cogent arguments seem as absurd and lumped together by the lazy masses. The transitive property does not apply here - if crackpot alien lady has paranoid, dumb theories on some event, it does mean all unpopular theories are crackpot.

Good journalism is key - and I get repulsed when I hear some one using terms like MSM or political correctness - they're often lazy terminolgy & red flags about their personality and way of thinking; however, that does not mean larger media outlets are providing good journalism. I've seen enough big corporates on the inside to know that the spin is either pure evil, money induced, or more often just plain incompetence. Likely a mix of all of the above. But that doesn't mean he who talks the loudest is right or the center of the bell curve is correct in its assessments. The Intercept is not CNN (thankfully so - speaking of good journalism).

Ask yourself, not what is that a crazy theory, but what real evidence is there to support it? And in the absence of said evidence, maybe just ask yourself, who has a track record of lying and ulterior motives? Is it coinceivable? (and I dont mean the aliens) What do they have to gain? What is obvious misinformation? And what is a mere emotional reaction?

This all assumes critical thinking intact and unfettered and a reasonable, unbiased moral compass. That's the tricky part.

probiner
11-18-2015, 01:20 AM
Calling "youtube video" as an adjective, like it has an attached credibility value, seriously... I'm sure the same value is put on BBC's youtube channels...

RH, why are so invested in attacking credibility of things you refuse to debate or maybe even see for a starters.

Is RT in your approved Index, RH? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGqi-k213eE

It's common sense you take in all the data you can get your hand on and juggle with that to get the best you can. Specially because the best lies are mostly composed of truth:) More over if you find YT channels that you find to offer better POVs than, toilet papers, you're just discriminating what you think it's bad. There's a reason alternative media is a thing today... It's because the mainstream is nuts!

sami
11-18-2015, 01:23 AM
...All that is needed is ignorance, and a mind that is primed toward suspicion...

While I agree with much of your arguments and sensibility to abhor magical thinking, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater here and conflating suspicion with scientific (and perhaps moral) yearning for the truth.

Why lump the nutbags in with people who ask rational, tough questions? Your argument is solid but your brush strokes are too big perhaps? Or am I understanding you wrong? (I've purposefully ignored the alien links here as the muddy a reasonable curiousity and critical evaluation of every story I'm told as fact - especially when it comes with a subtext directive not to question).

Suspicion is bad and fearful yes, but curiosity is kinda close but with different intent.... I get your point tho...

sami
11-18-2015, 01:36 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law

Physicist are not at a point where we can predict what happens in a Black Hole.

Why did I cross the Event Horizon and join in the discussion?? This thread is a black hole and was entirely predictable ;)

That being said, Sam Neil actually for real, once apologized to me for my Event Horizon complaints of him attempting to associate sex with gore by showing me a an attractive topless woman holding her own eyeballs in the movie of the same name. I accepted his apology and moved on like I shall with this topic. :ohmy:

jeric_synergy
11-18-2015, 01:37 AM
Without a high density HOT burning fuel... you cant make steel. Without steel, all your other technologies cant get off the ground. Youre' stuck in the middle ages (at best) for ever.
My current non-pixel activities have driven home to me how fundamental to civilization plentiful access to metals is, and how few people understand this.

Having read a lot of apocalyptic s.f., I enjoy speculating how various recovery scenarios would play out, and how long they would take. After the first time a civilization falls on a planet, is it easier to reboot because of all the scrap laying about, or more difficult due to the depletion of resources? Beats me, but makes bus time pass quicker.

There's an entire sub-genre of s.f. about dealing with life on a low energy, low-metals world. Fun stuff. Jack Vance's "The Blue World" is one-- an entire planet with zero dry land. Try starting a tech civilization there. His solution, such as it was, was ingenious.

Mannnn, how this thread has drifted.

50one
11-18-2015, 02:10 AM
yup. If you guys want some good book about the current economics and how the fossil fuels supported expansion of our civilization and how past civilization ended - "The long descent" - A guide to de-industrialization

lightscape
11-18-2015, 04:01 AM
Nato a religion?..not likely.

Religion by itself causing wars...not likely, it is however a perfect growth ground for fear, control, hatred of men..instigating war against non believers..has been and will be for a long long time...so honestly..I have been questioning the freedom of religion thing..as being the way to go...but it would be horrible to strike down too on people who wantīs to follow a religion they believe in with a warm heart..itīs not as black and white at all times.

A religion that is regressive and restricts womens rights, considers non-beiievers as infidels will never have my support.
I'm not even religious and could care less how people celebrate their religion but if it steps on other peoples well being its not right.

RebelHill
11-18-2015, 05:52 AM
if crackpot alien lady has paranoid, dumb theories on some event, it does mean all unpopular theories are crackpot... Ask yourself, not what is that a crazy theory, but what real evidence is there to support it? And in the absence of said evidence, maybe just ask yourself, who has a track record of lying and ulterior motives? Is it coinceivable? (and I dont mean the aliens) What do they have to gain? What is obvious misinformation? And what is a mere emotional reaction?

It does not mean that, you have to examine each piece of crackpottery on its merits (or dismerits). And yes... evidence to support... that IS the question, because its by that examination that you can determine what is or is not crackpot. You seem to have picked up the alien thing, perhaps no surprise, there was plenty of other detail littered about, but Ill recap other than that asking you to read whole pages... The cray cray lady's "theory" was about 9/11 and her question... what happened to the towers.

1. This question itself comes from her assertion that they (or large parts of them) vanished. She decides this based on the fact that the amount/mass of rubble/debris left by the towers was much less than the mass composed in the standing towers. Now, how does she know this? She looked at some videos. Thats it. Thats her "evidence" that something unexplained has happened which must be accounted for. (Hence my mocking reposte about beans in jars).

2. She explains that this "vapourisation" (or dustification as she calls it) must have been done by some "directed free energy" device/weapon which blew the towers to dust, almost instantly.

So we have two problems... the first is the claim that some "event" happened which needs an explanation. There is NO evidence presented whatsoever that this event is even true, just assertions based on her "analysis" of images. Further, it is a pretty BIG claim at that and sounds a little farfetched. Once you marry this to the way in which she deduces this event is a thing, you've already got something which is pretty nutty.

Secondly we then have her explanation. Since it's such a big/difficult thing to have happened/done, you need a pretty big cause... Thus, we insert the "fabled" tool big enough to get the job done. Is there any evidence that this tool (or anything resembling it in the slightest) even exists? Nope... but ah, you see... the evidence of the tools existence is in the event, because if the event described occurred then there must have been a cause to produce it, and the cause must be "complete" enough to satisfy the outcome.

So not ony do we have this "energy weapon" claim, which is starting to sound a bit bonkers by itself... what we also have, the KEY thing we have, is this constructivist argument built on an initial, unproven, speculative premise. The EXACT thing I was saying to kaptive... at some point, in the beginning, you HAVE to take something, some claim, at face value... you just have to believe it, and once you do that, you can fit anything else you like on top of it.

This is crackpottery in its purest form, and you'll find the exact same thing happening time and time again in all these nutjob theories.



conflating suspicion with scientific (and perhaps moral) yearning for the truth.

This yearning for truth can be a double edged sword though. Clearly if you have no interest in discovering truths then none of it really matters in the first instance. All quests for knowledge come from the desire to know things.

The fact though, is that the evaluation of truth must not be based upon desire no yearning, and most certainly not morality. It must only be based upon what the facts point to. The fuel that fires ALL conspiracy theorists and the fools who believe them is not the interest to know the truth, not the desire to search out the truth... its the NEED to have a truth which is SATISFYING emotionally or ideologically. It is very easy to feel immensely dissatisfied with an answer that either disappoints in some way, or most especially where no answer exists at all... I come back to the vaccine/autism thing. For the answer to your childs condition to be "bad luck, dont know, thats life"... is a bitter pill to swallow. Its very easy to feel bereft of sense or reason, and to desperately want some kind of answer, some idea of cause, someone or something to blame. Thus... when someone trots out and says, it was the vaccine, it was cell phone towers, it's and NHS conspiracy experimenting on foetuses via unltrasound, it becomes very easy for the feeble minded (or the temporarily feeble minded in the case of those in an emotionally distressed state) to latch on to these answers, to swallow them down without any critical examination, and without any recourse to evidence or reason.

Danner
11-18-2015, 06:45 AM
I kinda wish there was a like button here.

Well put RH, what you said should be common sense but some just don't get it.

+1

RebelHill
11-18-2015, 06:57 AM
Thanks... but lets be honest... if sense were common, the world would be a very different place.

Chris S. (Fez)
11-18-2015, 07:03 AM
The fuel that fires ALL conspiracy theorists and the fools who believe them is not the interest to know the truth, not the desire to search out the truth... its the NEED to have a truth which is SATISFYING emotionally or ideologically.

Yup.

Not directly related but many years ago I was at a bar waiting for a friend. Another patron was visibly distressed and I asked if he was OK and required assistance. Turns out his brother had been arrested for armed robbery and subsequently escaped...killing an officer and a sweet old security guard in the process. He was recaptured a few hours earlier after an intense manhunt.

The guy at the bar was going on and on about the Illuminati and how his brother had been framed for seeking the truth. I nodded and quietly listened to his tales of perpetual victimhood and soaked in his earnest, urgent energy and exchanged a glance with the bartender. The scariest part was that this gentleman actually seemed to believe his own ********.

His brother could not possibly have robbed that convenience store or murdered those men. All the evidence was doctored. It was all a great conspiracy you see...

There is no one so susceptible to delusion as the person desperate to believe something.

RebelHill
11-18-2015, 07:11 AM
Illuminati and how his brother had been framed for seeking the truth.

And thus on to my point about similarities...

If we presume, or even just hypothesise, a person who kills a cop/prison guard to make an escape because they believe that this person is the agent of some "evil conspiracy" out to persecute them... whilst in their mind it may seem perfectly rational... how are they actually any different from a jihadist?

prometheus
11-18-2015, 07:30 AM
Didn't question the girl's death... re-read. But when you mention the media I can only remember Conan O'Brian pushing envelopes... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuG8Mr1QIvE


You belive people would move with their families like that, obviously unprepared. You would stay at your home town with your family if people started to die left and right? Was Lybia a necessary war? Was Afghanistan a necessary war? Iraq maybe? Have we learned nothing? Do you not see when the Ponzi scheme is over and there's no more bubbles to burst, they take you to war so people don't revolt against all the wrong doing, which can't be hidden anymore? War, that great reset button. It's just it's not really an actual war so far is it? Just grinding of weaker people... Do you know US said that syrian the president "Must go" (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-17578802) three years ago? Yeah the same Lybian war star (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmIRYvJQeHM). See a pattern?.... Everywhere these people go and maim and kill what grows there in replacement? Your dear Islamic extremists... Just backtrack military interventions and there you go... It's like they're growing crops of them.
Don't worry mate, we have no house cleaning to do, air strikes will make it all cleaner...

Maybe it's a religion, that you simply didn't know you were following, who knows...
Just need to put 2 (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-executions-amnesty-international-beheadings-death-sentences-rate-under-king-salman-10470456.html) and 2 (http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/04/03/404456/US-to-refuel-Saudi-warplanes-in-Yemen) together. But hey... It's just some yemenis... whatever... right? No help needed ...


I think we two are completely misunderstanding each other, probably by phrasing things not quite correctly..what you mention about war in this post isnīt something i disagree with...the previous post I felt sounded completly different, like you were talking about war monglers from the western world starting or engaging in that particular war...those who are fleeing for their lifes, are not doing so just becuase of US bombing or france bombing over there, it all started with those acts IS are doing over there.
is that making it clear?

Maybe I did misunderstand you then...it sounded awkward..but such things happened..and you corrected that...if you refer to putting 2 and 2 together..I think we simple misunderstand what we are trying to say to eachother..mayb not so much around what we actually think about it all...or?

RebelHill
11-18-2015, 08:33 AM
RH, why are so invested in attacking credibility of things you refuse to debate or maybe even see for a starters.

Firstly, because credibility matters. Cry wolf and all that. If a person is demostrably a liar, or a fantasist, the you have to question any claims they make thereafer. As for non-debate of "points"... I stated at length why your tower vaporiser is a crank... see my recap reponse to sami if you need another rundown.


Is RT in your approved Index, RH?

And this is where you properly go off the reservation... So, you don't trust the "mass media"... because its all "government lies and spin"... but RT, a newtork owned and run by the russian STATE (a country with a long history of propagandising and which only last week was outed as a state player in the corruption of international athletics, a charge which it quiety conceeded was true)... That, you're somehow willing to admit into your "index" of truth, despite it being almost the epitome of the kind of news organisation you claim to be so distrustful of.

Perhaps its because you yourself have NO interest in in truth or CREDIBLE sources of information, but only in those which present a conclusion, or version of events that you have already decided in advance is the right one.

Fruitcake!

prometheus
11-18-2015, 09:47 AM
And one debate leads to another ...

spinning of more here...I find it enjoyable to watch a series here in sweden called, "all for sweden" where americans with swedish heritage back from often middle 1800īs.... are visiting sweden in a competition with other american-swedes, the winner getīs to met his or her relatives in sweden...the compitition part is in my eyes ridiculous, but it is interesting to see
Americans reflecting over their lives at home and what differences there are from sweden, in many cases they feel something is completed and they sometimes understand why they may have not fit in 100% in the american way etc.

Always fun to see them invited to "old classic" swedish food...I would say "forced" some of that stuff isnīt something we really enjoy that much anymore..most of the stuff is old time food for a swedish country that wasnīt wealthy at that time.

The swedish immigrants didnīt flee from war or prosecution, it was more of hard times and bad crop years, and simply hard times to make a living, a promise of golden opportunities over there, made many swedes leave the country.

Fun to see how the host of that program is teaching the swedish americans some swedish, customs etc, and why we are a quite odd country compared to many other countries in respect to how we as individuals trust the state Vs family bounds, Sweden "mostly" has an upside down view on this it seems...at least it has been such, it means we rather put the trust to our state in order to be free from our family ..where in America itīs the other way around..we have sort of put our lives in the trust of the state to ensure we have health, shelter etc..and all swedes have child support no matter of income.

So that is quite a radical different way of trusting the state in sweden VS america.
the american actor Brooke Langdon was one of the participants, she had to left the program early though..loosing some of the compititions, fun to see that it happened so that one of her ancestry was one of swedens big actors in the 30-40īs I think..which see didnīt know..so there was a connection with her self as an actor.
Not sure how all this fitīs in to the thread, maybe just a reflection on immigrating, what differentiates us and what unites us etc...right now, probably IKEA and McDonalds:)

Kaptive
11-18-2015, 10:58 AM
Ahhh forget it.

shrox
11-18-2015, 11:51 AM
Too bad this thread has to end like this...

Chris S. (Fez)
11-18-2015, 11:56 AM
....Deleted...Not worth it..........

Kaptive
11-18-2015, 11:58 AM
Too bad this thread has to end like this...

It's apity it ever got this far in the first place. This is not the place for these kinds of discussion full stop.

Kaptive
11-18-2015, 12:05 PM
I do also apologise to RH for my Blue coloured rant, even though I kind of said as much. But I just want to make it clear. (In fact I deleted the whole thing... kind of a pity after the time I put in, but it really just isnt the place). The pictures remain however, and I can't get rid of them. Make of them what you will... without a back story.

I'm not an A-hole, and regarding the original topic, I do actually care about people and their families. Things have been happening in many countries, not just France. I care about them too.

prometheus
11-18-2015, 12:21 PM
I do also apologise to RH for my Blue coloured rant, even though I kind of said as much. But I just want to make it clear.
I'm not an A-hole, and regarding the original topic, I do actually care about people and their families. Things have been happening in many countries, not just France. I care about them too.

whoo..I thought I was writing often too long posts :D
I Can understand that might feel necessary when itīs hard to communicate, and one just donīt seem to be understood properly...canīt you recap all that in a picture says more than thousands of words? I wonder how that would look like:D

You really donīt need to explain that you care for people in other countries, itīs not worth it..if someone enters with the belief that someone here doesnīt care about others..well seems ludicrous if that was the case, I am convinced that isnīt so..and if it were to be anyone like that, waist of time to discuss with.


and back to terror...
Sweden has now raised itīs state of terror threat, from a 3 to a 4, 3 was increased threat, 4 is high threat, and 5 is very high threat...seems the swedish security police have received contra terror information about someone who is wanted, and some other stuff..our parlament also received a threat that no parlement member should go to the parlament today in the morning...so guess they are tracking that, the politicians ignored that warning and went anyway..and so far nothing.

I believe terror groups now utilize the wakes of the aftermath of the attack in paris and instill fear, they donīt have to actually perform attacks in order to induce fear in our otherwise often peaceful society right now, I also believe that we will probably see some more soon..it may be calm for some weeks, but I wouldnīt be surprised if they will attack again around christmas and target gatherings at that time...sadly.

RebelHill
11-18-2015, 12:29 PM
Ok, so I'm leaving the part in Blue here, because it is the state of my mind that I was in when I started. But please, do read on beyond... etc

Ok, so... there's that then.

Let me just state again a couple things in a slightly different form, in the hope of being clearer, and perhaps so that you might find you dont need to feel so aggrieved by them.

The whole "Ive read this, seen that, moved in such and such a circle"... This wasnt some attempt to one up you, nor demonstrate some level of exposure or knowledge that outstrips your own, it was simply an explanation of what I got. You might easily consider that a person of my mind rejects the claims of [insert alt belief/philosophy] out of hand as some sort of automatic reaction, without actually knowing any of the details of said belief, its arguments, how it establishes certain conclusions, etc.

My point was, I dont... I have had no small amount of exposure to this stuff in various forms and I was never shown anything convincing, hence... I dont buy any of it.

This doesnt have to mean its greater or lesser than your own... its just what I got. I have right now Ģ21 in paper, and a desk full of scattered loose change. Thats not trying to say its more or less than you or anyone else... its just what I got on me at this moment.

The only other thing is your attempts to explain or convince (or not convince but just explain)... Once again, you state that certain things... "It is so out there that rational thinking will not, cannot bring you the correct answer."... Which ofc amounts to having to accept certain things, however small, as true, without any good reason to exclude doubt, and without evidence (or somethign close enough to evidence to remove a reasonable level of doubt).

This is impossible, for me, I am afraid. I just dont have it in me to accept claims without good reason or rationale... never have had. I didnt buy santa as a child, nor god, nor other things... and it is the reason why, despite my contacts and interactions with aforementioned believers, I was never suitably convinced and came to the conclusion that it was all false... because no matter what, somewhere, at some point, in order to accept the reasoning, arguments, or proofs supposedly offered by the entire edifice, there was something, some seed element, which just had to be taken on faith.

And I dont have the ability for that inside myself.

So Im sorry if any of that upsets you... but it is what it is.

VonBon
11-18-2015, 12:34 PM
Well just to push this thread right over the edge............
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram

Why isn't there any out cry or mourning or coverage
or push for coalitions for what is happening in Africa?

This thread really does say a lot.

prometheus
11-18-2015, 12:51 PM
Well just to push this thread right over the edge............
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram

Why isn't there any out cry or mourning or coverage
or push for coalitions for what is happening in Africa?



This thread really does say a lot.

My guess, though those terror groups might have the same fanatiscm, Iīm not sure those groups activly are targeting europe for the moment..maybe they are but we donīt know about it? and since it is no aimed for terror in europe, it doesnīt have the same effect, not in this thread and not in our society in general...that is not to say that we do not know about it or our government isnīt working on how to deal with that issue...itīs not just that visible in the agenda as recents attack that occours in europe.

this thread is about paris..and now a lot of other things :)
you can start one about boko haram...I you will see it wonīt be silent, so the statement of this thread say a lot...means to me that it says a lot..but then again it says me nothing.
It doesnīt mean no one cares or morn about boko haram and itīs victim...not really.
we havenīt touched korea and the starving people and executions over there..but that doesnīt necessary mean no one cares about that either....so I would suggest donīt get hanged up on forum threads and whatīs missing to define what everyone feels about.

VonBon
11-18-2015, 01:20 PM
No, it really does mean that no one cares. Countries who have
the ability to do something about the situations in Africa, don't,
because these countries have no "interest" in the areas where
these massacres are happening. Some may be thinking it,
"is he trying to make this a race issue?"...No, its economics, its
all about money and power. I say this because countries let
millions of Jewish people just die. So all this, let me cover my
profile pic with the French flag and make post of the tragedy is
all BS. People like to act like they care so deeply because they
are so worried about how they are perceived by others. People
and countries won't truly care until its at their doorstep.

In my opinion

Kaptive
11-18-2015, 01:24 PM
Ok, so... there's that then.

and came to the conclusion that it was all false... because no matter what, somewhere, at some point, in order to accept the reasoning, arguments, or proofs supposedly offered by the entire edifice, there was something, some seed element, which just had to be taken on faith.

And I dont have the ability for that inside myself.

So Im sorry if any of that upsets you... but it is what it is.

Hmmmph, I don't know if you got to read what I put. I deleted it pretty quickly despite a lot of time and effort... it just doesn't belong here. But the thing is, I agree with everything you just said. Without exception. for the exact same reasons. That is what set me on my path of learning... eventually with the idea that maybe I could maybe work out what the hell is going on. March/April were the weirdest months of my life... the story I could tell is just insanity... if you caught what I wrote before, it barely scratches it. All this, and I still hold your last statement as true for me also. This is why I found our conversation so frustrating. It is a most difficult thing to discuss even at the best of times in private trusted company. Imagine trying to do that while defending ones self on a public forum related to your professional life.

Extremely tough.

But listen, I do appreciate your last post and just need to put this behind me as it really killed a decent nights sleep, and I hate being at odds with anyone. It just is not my way.
On top of that, I've been out filming all day and came back and ended up writing for quite some time... only to then delete it, and then go on to find out that while I was spending all that time composing, I was oblivious to the awesome fact that we've been giften Chronosculpt and Nevronmotion. Ta very much Newtek.

So anyway, I apologise, and thank you for yours. It all just got out of hand, and my standing was probably badly conveyed.

Time to step away from this thread I feel and just let it drift.

50one
11-18-2015, 01:38 PM
No, it really does mean that no one cares. Countries who have
the ability to do something about the situations in Africa, don't,
because these countries have no "interest" in the areas where
these massacres are happening. Some may be thinking it,
"is he trying to make this a race issue?"...No, its economics, its
all about money and power. I say this because countries let
millions of Jewish people just die. So all this, let me cover my
profile pic with the French flag and make post of the tragedy is
all BS. People like to act like they care so deeply because they
are so worried about how they are perceived by others. People
and countries won't truly care until its at their doorstep.

In my opinion


Amen.

Today 68 people killed in a blast in Nigerian market and 100's injured....no mention of it in the western media.
Every single month in Iraq there's 1000, yes more than one thousand people killed in terrorist attacks, do I see people changing their avatars?


https://www.iraqbodycount.org
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

prometheus
11-18-2015, 02:31 PM
No, it really does mean that no one cares. Countries who have
the ability to do something about the situations in Africa, don't,
because these countries have no "interest" in the areas where
these massacres are happening. Some may be thinking it,
"is he trying to make this a race issue?"...No, its economics, its
all about money and power. I say this because countries let
millions of Jewish people just die. So all this, let me cover my
profile pic with the French flag and make post of the tragedy is
all BS. People like to act like they care so deeply because they
are so worried about how they are perceived by others. People
and countries won't truly care until its at their doorstep.

In my opinion




Amen.

Today 68 people killed in a blast in Nigerian market and 100's injured....no mention of it in the western media.
Every single month in Iraq there's 1000, yes more than one thousand people killed in terrorist attacks, do I see people changing their avatars?


https://www.iraqbodycount.org
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

So why donīt you guys care? or donīt you..I donīt see you guys posting the news about it..In a Header post?
I think itīs a bit narrowminded to say no one cares, it hasnīt had the same media impact..thatīs a different story, and for how much we care in these forums...who cares?
Why not seperating media coverage from "no one cares"?,
Frankly..if we were to follow every human disaster, I would probably dig a hole and crawl up when all is said and done, Itīs tragic that the world community canīt deal with all tragic events occouring, but I understand why it is like that and why media donīt put it on the headlines as opposed to what happened in france.

humans always have been identifying themself with the closest elements, being loved ones, family, community, country..screw the rest..well not that harsch maybe, but I dare you to challenge me being wrong about world identity and how that impacts our feelings and engagement.

vonbon mentioned the factor of " express engagement becuase of the proper thing to do or something like that?" I would say itīs more of an identfication factor. I could care less of being appropiate in engagement.

Edited..removed kaptive from the error code, he wasnīt supposed to be qouted in this post.

Anyone remembering band aid? that didnīt reach my doorstep nor many others either..but still help was raised etc.

RebelHill
11-18-2015, 02:57 PM
Personally... I think a lot of the time the which bits do or dont get reported have more to do with the outlying nature of the event.

The paris attacks are an extreme event, the deaths in iraq (while no less sad) are a daily event. And it needn't be about simply being close to home... for instance (on average) there are about 50 children murdered by their parents each year in britain, and whilst each occurrence probably makes local news, the only ones to make national news are the particularly outlandish ones where there's some particular brutality, or failure from social services, and so on.

prometheus
11-18-2015, 03:02 PM
Personally... I think a lot of the time the which bits do or dont get reported have more to do with the outlying nature of the event.

The paris attacks are an extreme event, the deaths in iraq (while no less sad) are a daily event. And it needn't be about simply being close to home... for instance (on average) there are about 50 children murdered by their parents each year in britain, and whilst each occurrence probably makes local news, the only ones to make national news are the particularly outlandish ones where there's some particular brutality, or failure from social services, and so on.

Interesting reflections, though ..lets think about this, is"outlying nature" extreme in difference on how the killing went by, or is it a question about frequency? I donīt see a difference in brutality by deaths in iraq compared to deaths in europe..except maybe itīs often probably even worse in iraq..I could be wrong but being shot seem a bit less brutal than beheaded after having seen you daughter raped and your wife then seen them killed..so to me I could only conclude to the frequence factor...it could be a combination of that and what I mentioned about identity factor...I was reflecting about identity with the help of what dalai lamai has mentioned being a worthly problem...so that is a bit of my perspective on it.

I would sob if sweden lost to the danes in soccer eu qualifying, fortunatly we won..the danes ar sobbing..I donīt care...tragic..but true, sounds extreme perhaps to compare that with extreme brutality etc..but I think the underlying principles are valid as a natural behaviour principle for us humans.

Seems to me empathy with others decline with less identification towards others, and for that to change... we would probably need to raise our awareness and consciousness in many ways.

Must add.. to me it seems religious fanatics like IS ..are brainwashed to have no identification with next of kind even, itīs about that other side ..thatīs where they will feel identification towards, so no emphathy towards
their own either really, which makes it easy to send their own out to blow themself up...the distance is set to avoid any kind of human value.

erikals
11-18-2015, 03:27 PM
Seems to me empathy with others decline with less identification towards others, and for that to change...
we would probably need to raise our awareness and consciousness in many ways.

+5

djwaterman
11-18-2015, 04:28 PM
Well just to push this thread right over the edge............
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram

Why isn't there any out cry or mourning or coverage
or push for coalitions for what is happening in Africa?

This thread really does say a lot.

So what's your suggestion here, a coalition of the willing occupy Nigeria? Boots on the ground and all that. I'm for it, but are you going to then complain about western imperialism and point the finger every which way when things go wrong, as they would. The fact is we care about places like France because they are stable states that represent the superiority of the western model, and when bad things happen to them it's a bad sign for anyone living in one. I can already hear the voices chastising me for suggesting that the western model is superior, but yeah, it is, for dealing with and organizing populations of millions and allowing them some measure of freedom. Perhaps you can find an isolated island of a few thousand that live some alternative way of life that you could call superior, but it would all break down when up-scaled into higher populations.

I would love for the west to go into Nigeria and take total control of the state capital, lock it down, shake it up and eliminate all the evil doers therein, then start to re-organize the administration of public works and services and enforce education for all children. But this is a fantasy, the moral outrage that would result from taking that sort of action would doom it from the start. Perhaps we could start a hashtag movement, that seems to placate a lot of people, they get to show they care while at the same time leaving the problem to sort itself out, and they never get criticized for having advocated an action that might turn out to be the wrong action.

I understand your point about the news coverage being greater for one than the other, I don't consider it revealing about people here on the forums.

c.1
11-18-2015, 04:33 PM
"Seems to me empathy with others decline with less identification towards others, and for that to change... we would probably need to raise our awareness and consciousness in many ways."

I think what we have more of than empathy is "tempathy" temporary empathy for the latest _____________(just fill in the blank)
Our collective attention span is very short.

probiner
11-18-2015, 04:36 PM
Another 0 content post with ad hominem attacks

You only undermine your own credibility with that schlock. Calling people liar with 0 proof or discussion about their positions put forward; trying to come out as if you know more about a field than a PhD because you read some books; mentioning RT is a state owned media, against what, BBC...? And carrying on characterizing me with hypothetics (ahaha), while insisting with one liner silly insults... I mean, is this your first time arguing about these? Oh no, I remember now, you went ballistic on Skype once and we never talked again ever since, I guess things are still the same, once it slips you start bullying people with some imagined authority on subjects and personal skills, like shouting and trying to offend people. The CAPS thing though, its new: updates... :) Reminds me of another LW 3D entrepreneur... Ah well, I'm sure it's not software related.

War has been on the roll for so much time, now. It's not war, it's a siege of continuous rape and extraction, it's madness. Trashing lives and peace abroad, trashing honest prosperity everywhere, trashing any chest-pumped western virtues. If Europe comes to collapse, won't be at hand of some pawns with guns, but as a consequence of all the elephants in the room, so big they don't hide that well anymore and the people don't repudiate in words and actions. In part because it's easier in part because they have been taught and grown that way. Just opening the TV and it's a 24/7 circus profiting on innocent deaths, casting a veil of fear, "it's all over the place", suggestive narratives, letting the audience connect the obvious dot, but actual information? Not that much.
No, Europe slip is more likely to come from things like TTIP, which is being made in secret(some leaks happened), and its set to surpass any state sovereignty more than EU, by setting special courts and guarantee of profit by suing the states for it. Serious and dangerous stuff like that we don't see it in the state owned media 24/7 of course.

I had a few french friends (along with others) sitting down for a meal at my house 2 weeks ago. I've came to know these days, one happened to be in Paris when it happened and that while none of them lost a friend, friends of friends have died. Do you think they want more war though? Of course not! That's what brought this (whatever it was) in the first place to their door step. They want information and justice and that's all you can give to victims. Giving them more anonymous dead bodies won't do any good. Right now we have an amounting lack of justice and information in this western world of ours. "Justice" not simple as a department of governance but ethical practices in general, given the blatant double standards ("Hey you oppose government? You want to go back to the archaic setting of worrying for your life everyday? We've isolated and maintained that lifestyle in a couple of areas, don't be silly.") It's a gradient that extends from white, from the more powerful countries to the powerless ones in the NATO dome or partners, and then into black outside of it. The showdown on Greece was just the proof. And "information", not just as media, but in a more encompassing sense, including language and education.

Now, give me a moment please, I need to do some home banking and check how my sensible bollocks are doing in the bank vault. I've heard they are going in for a shave with all those negative interest rates. Ouch. I better stay at home safe and quiet if I want to keep my life style.

zarti
11-18-2015, 05:38 PM
i have read 4 last pages of this thread ,

but the post #172 : sounds like the perfect EPILOGUE to this thread .


ep·i·logue
ˈepəˌlôɡ,ˈepəˌläɡ/

noun
a section or speech at the end of a book or play that serves as a comment on or a conclusion to ..


.cheers

RebelHill
11-18-2015, 05:55 PM
TTIP, which is being made in secret

Yes... so secret the european commission only publish rafts of draft texts on their own website...

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2015/february/tradoc_153120.pdf
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2015/february/tradoc_153120.pdf
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2015/september/tradoc_153807.pdf

etc...

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1230

But no, Im sure that's only what they "want" you to think.


you went ballistic on Skype once and we never talked again

I seem to recall I called you a nutter, or tinhatter, or something to that effect. Ofc back then, if I remember you were talking about "purposeful/controlled demolition"... but since then you've managed to evolve all the way to "vaporisation with energy weapons".

Guess which direction my opinion of you and your ramblings have travelled in light of this development. And then imagine, if you will, the multiplicative effect of that brought on by your seeming inability to see just how crazy that actually is.

jeric_synergy
11-18-2015, 06:07 PM
Guess which direction my opinion of you and your ramblings have traveled in light of this development.
Gotta love that British understatement.

shrox
11-18-2015, 06:11 PM
What about MY needs?

VonBon
11-18-2015, 06:58 PM
I'm not complaining WaterMan, I was simply bringing
to light an observation of mine. I then decided to see
what others thought about the question, so I posted it.

I stated what I thought in the following post, which is
the point I was trying to make. People were probably
like, "My show about to come on" and forgot all about
Paris.

VonBon
11-18-2015, 07:08 PM
:ohmy:Hell, the only reason we're still even remotely thinking about
Paris is because RebelHill in here going all Word Ninja on folk.

probiner
11-18-2015, 10:48 PM
Yes... so secret the european commission only publish rafts of draft texts on their own website...
Yeah so public that Wikileaks had to go on about its negotiation. You know, that most important part of a deal, signing it's just the binding... Have fun with the initial drafts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABDiHspTJww


Guess which direction my opinion of you and your ramblings have travelled in light of this development. And then imagine, if you will, the multiplicative effect of that brought on by your seeming inability to see just how crazy that actually is.
#BoxCuttersAndFuel, right...
You keep focusing on characterization and adjectivization like it's a valid argument, I don't get it... It just knocks any objectivity, hence the mention of Hawkins, an Inquisition-like tone.
I've said her points were interesting since first and foremost they looked at fenomena and relationships that weren't even questioned to start with or put in such clear manner by anyone else, although subconsciously one was wondering. You don't like them or don't want to address them fine, don't need to get up on the table. Doesn't make you sound more reasonable...

__

As for Paris, Le Pen will certainly rise with all this. EU and the "internationals" have been undermining national sovereignties in each country, binding their people to decisions taken miles away. So much that most citizens are even ok with admitting that the construct of national states is a facade, as the centralized international state power-reach doesn't stop at the border.
People don't question it as long it's all well, but that certainly changes when people have their immediate security at risk and the government is perceived as incapable of taking its own measures to solve the situation and attend firstly their people, instead of the international country club. I don't believe more attacks will happen (gut feeling, I still don't know their origin, but I would say mission accomplished), but if any more attacks occur, I'm guessing that more than the muslim community, the government itself will be very much attacked. And when things become clear is when the socialists and the republicans in France unite against Le Pen, just like it happens with all the "international" shills in each country that want to keep the dual-party system and suppress any nationalism and self-determination. Then there's no right or left, just "the system". It's a trend seen in many countries including mine.
Political ideologies are just a matter of flavour when it comes to vision on the fundamental things, many of them not even addressed, pointed out, questioned. And I see that obscurantism being fought in Judy Wood's presentation, may she be right or not at all, but the attitude itself it's valuable.

prometheus
11-19-2015, 12:30 AM
Why canīt we all just get along..why canīt we all just be friends, because we are not friends? why are we not friends?


over here thereīs a lot in the media now about our raised terror threat level to a level under the highest level.
they are especially looking for a suspected terrorist..publiced with name and picture now, and all men in the police force is lookin for him, and we have been warned about a possible attack in sweden, this threat change was issued by the police force, shortly also the swedish military defense also raised the thread to that level...so it will be a bit of a tension over here now in sweden..public transportation will be having more men from the police force in the vicinity.

itīs the first time in modern history we have raised that threat level to nr 4.

Unfortunatly ..if they do not track this down, I fear for another attack over here soon.
the security authorities says a bit of contridictionary statements, we should be causes and alert..but there is no need to be worried? what the...

hubba..hubba..who do you trust?

and to something completly different thing, when scientist & literature nobel price winners are gathered, they have a tv show called, genius speculating..
we could have a webinar gathering all our geniuses here..that would be interesting, ladies and gentlemen..keep a civil tone for the sake of your own decent presence :)

50one
11-19-2015, 02:29 AM
What about MY needs?

A parcel is already heading your direction.

RebelHill
11-19-2015, 05:49 AM
like it's a valid argument, I don't get it...

Ah... I see now, you've completely misinterpreted by end of the conversation.

You think there's an actual "debate" to be had about the vapourisation of skyscrapers with secret sci fi weaponry... You probably also think there's one to be had about the underground cave trolls from the moon.

Im not trying to debate these ideas... I'm ridiculing them, because thats all they deserve.

probiner
11-19-2015, 05:55 AM
ISDS or Investor-state dispute settlement is one the most chilling parts of "free"-trade agreements like TTIP. Basically, foreign investors can sue the state for compensation if anything affects their investment. Madness... The notion of "risk" is totally disfigured in this power slipping ghost of capitalism, it's meddled with everywhere (I don't need to repost interest rates again) at the price of liberty and justice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SbO2zDDpDA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYRnrgk0fDw

And this is why the "internationals" oppose any national, self-determination movement. They would just break away of all of this foreigner legal threading. We saw how it went down in Greece, lets see what happens in France in 2017...


Im not trying to debate these ideas... I'm ridiculing them, because thats all they deserve.
Nah, you're not ridiculing such ideas, the intervenients or me, like you've tried often, but only yourself, with such attitude. Any information or argument you would add to show how those ideas were wrong would be fair. This whole time you invested on attempts of ridiculing is not.

RebelHill
11-19-2015, 06:17 AM
Wow, thanks... I'd hate to self-ridiculizate.

Btw... I found you a whole institute full of phd's to follow and swallow...

http://www.icr.org/research/team

Check it out, there's some really worrying sh_t going on man, turns out those geologists... they've been lying to us. Gotta wonder what their agenda really is.

Peace, love, dope!

SBowie
11-19-2015, 06:48 AM
I think what we have more of than empathy is "tempathy" ....Just yesterday I was thinking that's it's been quite some time since the news media mentioned Ukraine substantively. No doubt hostilities there have all ended, replaced by flower-bedecked unity parades. Or perhaps the intractable nature of the issues wore out both the tireless tongues of the talking heads with profile to raise and books to sell and the attention span of the masses.


Perhaps you can find an isolated island of a few thousand that live some alternative way of life that you could call superior, but it would all break down when up-scaled into higher populations.As clearly, over time, has the undeniably superior western model in virtually all substantial populations, as polarization of various kinds devolves into political gridlock with occasional violent and criminal undercurrents. I'll grant this model (to the degree it can be said to be a homogeneous model) is preferable, warts and all - I'll refrain from intoning the usual Churchill quote. But crowded prisons, social problems in every realm and endeavour, rife corruption and oligarchies thinly veiled behind a burka of political blatherskiting lapped up by the gullible, no end of negative indicators ... these things argue for profound modesty when declaiming that superiority.


Im not trying to debate these ideas... I'm ridiculing them, because thats all they deserve.Without commenting on the merit of one argument over another, this is not the place for ridicule and name calling. Having arrived at this point, it's time to knock it off. Even when we personally find an idea, philosophy or viewpoint reprehensible, it's usually possible to at least respect the fact that it is sincerely held, and sometimes bravely espoused against prevailing views. When that becomes impossible, whether because of our own profound convictions, blatant hypocrisy, or other reasons, it's time to either walk away or take it outside.

RebelHill
11-19-2015, 07:30 AM
Without commenting on the merit of one argument over another, this is not the place for ridicule and name calling. Having arrived at this point, it's time to knock it off. Even when we personally find an idea, philosophy or viewpoint reprehensible, it's usually possible to at least respect the fact that it is sincerely held, and sometimes bravely espoused against prevailing views. When that becomes impossible, whether because of our own profound convictions, blatant hypocrisy, or other reasons, it's time to either walk away or take it outside.

If you're talking matters that hold some importance for folk, like where their Mum went after she died, etc, Id agree, you might try to present a reason why any given idea has ills , but past that you're only trying to kick a stool out from beneath the person. However, surely when an idea or theory is clear, and obvious nonsense... surely calling BS on it without the need to expend energy trying to prove a negative is perfectly fair... I submit that if there be no place for the latter, then there ought be none for the former.

If you look through Pro's posting on the matter, from his first one forward, its not hard to read the subtext of what he's getting at...

"We're told there were terrorsist attacks in paris, but really, were there? I mean, just look at the truth about 9/11"...

And when the "truth" about 911 is vapourisation by energy weapon... what else is coming down the pipe? That the paris attacks were perpetrated by robots from the future? (Evidenced, no doubt, by the fact that they blew themselves up, thus destroying the evidence of their existence).

Obviously, Steve, its up to yourself to decide on whats appropriate in these parts in either the posting of such ideas, or the calling out of them as ridiculous, and with that, I'll let this be my last word on the whole debacle.


I'll refrain from intoning the usual Churchill quote.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary."

I doubt the one you were thinking of... but still a goody.

Cheers.

SBowie
11-19-2015, 07:50 AM
... its not hard to read the subtext of what he's getting at.When it's necessary to read between the lines, interpolate or extrapolate subtext, or follow offsite links to related materials that purport to elaborate on said subtext, it would seem to imply some measure of restraint has been exercised by the poster, or at least some small attempt to respect the reasonable strictures of the venue.

Certainly there are less generous constructions one might suggest as the foundation for said restraint, but it suits the needs of this venue best to offer the benefit of the doubt and let appreciation for that measure of restraint suggest letting such things slide rather than calling them out (and perhaps providing a platform for an extended brawl in doing so).


Obviously, Steve, its up to yourself to decide on whats appropriate in these parts in either the posting of such ideas, or the calling out of them as ridiculous, and with that, I'll let this be my last word on the whole debacle.Much appreciated.


I doubt the one you were thinking of... but still a goody.One seldom goes wrong by quoting 'Winnie': "I am ready to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter."

RebelHill
11-19-2015, 08:00 AM
One seldom goes wrong by quoting 'Winnie'

“I wonder what Piglet is doing, I wish I were there to be doing it, too.”

I've... I've got it wrong again... havent I?

SBowie
11-19-2015, 08:30 AM
I've... I've got it wrong again... havent I?"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals."

prometheus
11-19-2015, 12:24 PM
"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals."

I like pigīs to, but with them on the plate, the perspective is a bit different I guess, weak is meat, and the strong do eat.:D

prometheus
11-19-2015, 02:24 PM
Swedish securite police has just arrested the suspected man they were looking for, that had been fighting for IS before...there could be more though.

shrox
11-19-2015, 02:56 PM
A parcel is already heading your direction.

My own "parcel" of land in France? Excellent!

probiner
11-19-2015, 03:57 PM
Seems that someone has put its hands on the magazines published by the violent islamic group and made an article: http://www.cracked.com/blog/isis-wants-us-to-invade-7-facts-revealed-by-their-magazine/
Yup its one of those silly "x number" of things article, but I can say it added to the info I had.

Cageman
11-19-2015, 04:42 PM
Wow...

Some people in this thread should have the knowledge of "taking a break". And I suggest you do it now, while ther is time to do it...

Sweden upgraded the terrorthreat from level 3 to 4 (the scale is 1-5... 5 being worst), which is very serious. This is the first time Sweden upgraded to that scale.

This stuff is real... the things happening in Paris and Lebanon is real...

... and you guys keep talking about things you do not even understand or can ever predict.... Things, that, in whatever way you twist it, have _no ******* relevance, to what is going on, right now, in Europe and in the world... *sigh*

Stay in the now... not the tommorrow or whatever fiction of tomorrow you believe in. That _is_ BS anyway.

Honor those that died in Paris! Honor those that died in Lebanon! Be prepared to honor those that will die in a future terror attack from IS.

prometheus
11-19-2015, 04:53 PM
some people?

yeah..I already mentioned the raise of the terror level thread in sweden.

I hope they do a good investigation from the apprehended suspected Terrorist..and track down more if there is more that is.

I hope they close the schengen deal..for some years, and I hope they implement a law of no return for those swedish IS supporters who have been over there to fight for IS, today they are allowed to come back..I am having a hard time grasping that point of policy.
would be better of declaring..if you would go to fight over there for IS, you have forfit your asylum right.

RebelHill
11-19-2015, 04:58 PM
Sweden upgraded the terrorthreat from level 3 to 4 (the scale is 1-5... 5 being worst), which is very serious. This is the first time Sweden upgraded to that scale.

What is the deal in sweden these days (socially speaking). You hear the odd thing (on the outside) about troubles brewing, segregated communities, immigrant (meaning often muslim) "ghettos", social unrest/division, etc, etc. Malmo often appears to get a mention in these reports.

Generally I dont take them at any kind of face value (mainly cos Ive never so much as seen sweden from afar, and, because a LOT of these reports seem to be coming from the more right wing side of interpretation), so it'd be interesting to hear from one who actually walks the streets, sees the local news, etc.

prometheus
11-19-2015, 05:04 PM
What is the deal in sweden these days (socially speaking). You hear the odd thing (on the outside) about troubles brewing, segregated communities, immigrant (meaning often muslim) "ghettos", social unrest/division, etc, etc. Malmo often appears to get a mention in these reports.

Generally I dont take them at any kind of face value (mainly cos Ive never so much as seen sweden from afar, and, because a LOT of these reports seem to be coming from the more right wing side of interpretation), so it'd be interesting to hear from one who actually walks the streets, sees the local news, etc.


Cageman could probably give statements on Malmo ..since he lives there, Im in stockholm..but it may be very similar between two of the largets capitals.
What I heard though..from news and persons within the security and terror experts, it seems that gothenburg..has amongst the most people going from any european country to fight for IS.
that is perhaps another question than the actual immigrant intergration issue.

It seems like gang related crimes has started to increase, probably both in malmo and stockholm...but I am very uncertain that has to do with immigrants from syria for example.
I donīt believe there is so extreme ghetto related issues, sure ..unemployment, some minor violence..but I havenīt seen that much in the news anyway.
from what I have seen from series about gang criminality in the usa, we are probably miles way after that situation..to me ..I would be absolutly terrified living in the usa..if that image of the gangs in the usa is correctg that is, canīt recall the showīs name right now.

someone here posted a link to a clip which seem to be a right wing propaganda of immigrants storming houses, well..it may have been correct for that area and particular event..but we havenīt seen anything like that in sweden..what we have seen though, that is immigrants asylum homes are getting burned, probably by right wing extremists.

another issue due to the free movement and the schengen deal, that is not syria directly..romanian beggers are the topic, they are sitting in every entrence of shops and malls, begging for money...that has been a big topic in the social media.

Our prime minister just recently had a pressconference, and said, sweden has been too naive..regarding boarder control or laws for those going to syria and coming back, the right wingers SD took a point from that and said.."sweden hasnīt been naive..wevé been saying this a long time..but the other parties have been blind"

Thereīs been one big getto issue..but I think that was romanian settlement mostly...the syrian problem is now to get shelter..roof above their heads before the cold winter sets in.

Cageman
11-19-2015, 05:22 PM
What is the deal in sweden these days (socially speaking). You hear the odd thing (on the outside) about troubles brewing, segregated communities, immigrant (meaning often muslim) "ghettos", social unrest/division, etc, etc. Malmo often appears to get a mention in these reports.

Generally I dont take them at any kind of face value (mainly cos Ive never so much as seen sweden from afar, and, because a LOT of these reports seem to be coming from the more right wing side of interpretation), so it'd be interesting to hear from one who actually walks the streets, sees the local news, etc.

As Prometheus allready mentioned, Gothenburg (Göteborg) is the biggest provider of IS "warriors" (think per capita... not numbers) of Europe. The sad thing about these numbers is that the majority of those that choose to go Jihad, are people _born_ in this country.

Some, extremely naive politicians, have said that we shouldn't do any actions against these people if they return, because it isn't "their fault" etc, etc...

Thankfully, we are now going to make "terror traveling" a crime. There are a lot more things cooking for preventing young people to do the "Jihad"... but until then... things will be a mess.

The general stance tough, is that we, as citicens, should not worry. But, it is asked from us to be more observant of things. Anything suspicios should be reported.

We also have a much more presence of Policeforce...

Not sure I can give any more information than that... but...

Level 4 is... serious... very much so. :/

prometheus
11-19-2015, 05:36 PM
As Prometheus allready mentioned, Gothenburg (Göteborg) is the biggest provider of IS "warriors" (think per capita... not numbers) of Europe. The sad thing about these numbers is that the majority of those that choose to go Jihad, are people _born_ in this country.

Some, extremely naive politicians, have said that we shouldn't do any actions against these people if they return, because it isn't "their fault" etc, etc...

Thankfully, we are now going to make "terror traveling" a crime. There are a lot more things cooking for preventing young people to do the "Jihad"... but until then... things will be a mess.

The general stance tough, is that we, as citicens, should not worry. But, it is asked from us to be more observant of things. Anything suspicios should be reported.

We also have a much more presence of Policeforce...

Not sure I can give any more information than that... but...

Level 4 is... serious... very much so. :/

Yeah..that sums up what Ivé said a bit too, I think we both agree here on the naivity of letting people return, that is absolutly dangerously, and naive..they should make a very clear statement, If you choose to fight for terrorism..that is a one way ticket, you will not be allowed back in.
I would like to see the schengen deal of free movement stopped at once too, not forever..but a few years perhaps, extreme measures may sometimes be taken to meet extremists...itīs of course dynamic and can be changed when things seem to get better.

RebelHill
11-19-2015, 05:42 PM
Some, extremely naive politicians, have said that we shouldn't do any actions against these people if they return, because it isn't "their fault" etc, etc...

Yeah... do-gooders... so in love with equality, diversity and loudly anti-racist, but as soon as some brown person does something bad, its not their fault, as if they were all somehow children incapable of bearing responsibility for their own choices. Im not sure Id say thats naivete... Id class it as doublethink.


As Prometheus allready mentioned, Gothenburg (Göteborg) is the biggest provider of IS "warriors" (think per capita... not numbers) of Europe. The sad thing about these numbers is that the majority of those that choose to go Jihad, are people _born_ in this country... Level 4 is... serious... very much so. :/

Aside from the invention of statistics and vikings, I dont know much about swedish history... but Im not aware of any great "meddling" in the middle east, colonialism, or any other such on your part. Since what we see here time and again is a lot of those who like to say "Its our own fault for our foreign policy" (as if our resistance to attacks were the cause of those attacks)... or its because of history (things that happened 200-100 yrs ago.. can't remember the last time I felt a need to punch a german [in a non football related incident ofc]).

But when youve got nartural born swedes either wanting to pop off to syria... or folk wanting to attack sweden (wherever they're from)... I think it kinda blows away the whole "greivance" argument, and really is just indicative of these peoples hated of our liberal, open, secular societies.

prometheus
11-19-2015, 05:51 PM
To me there have been a way to Oversmoothing a debate of immigrant politics, sort of the empires clothes climate when discussing immigrants, racism etc, the debate took a turn when right wingers focused on immigrants and openly said..not racism..itīs about immigrant level and other threats, not the actual race or color, with that it seems the major parties couldnīt debate against that, the word of the day became, stranger hostile..which become very popular and sort of if you are stranger hostile, you are racists..but they didnīt openly say so.

This has in my opinion made things worse, to the point that no one of the bigger parties discuss immigration politics with nuance, it ends up bing stranger hostile..we donīt accept that, thank you and good bye, this isnīt fooling many folks who needs a discussion about it, thus I believe many are turning to SD (right wingers with nazi background for some part..though they are trying to clean that up)..I am afraid the established parties are serving the power to SD on a silver plate due to this, in a few years..and that scares me, I am having issues with their background, but at the same time they are right in some parts ..in my opinion anyway, but if they SD succed, I will be an immigrant looking for another place than sweden to live in...if it werenīt for what I see so often reported of crime, violence, gangs etc...I would have had the us in my mind :) would love to see the nature..but thatīs pretty much it..I donīt think I would feel safe going there.
I reckon I would be scanned thorougly, and questioned about .."youré not a terrorist are you" :) no..just terror with my swedish way of life ..haha.

swedish history, well...vikings was a long time ago, some of us went to work on the foundations of some part of russia, danes went for brittanis mostly, and got a king settled there, where norweigans mostly went greenland and us I think.

in the seventies, we had more of a socialist/left politics ..mixture, where we had a prime minister ranting some harsch views on the usa, palme..vietnam etc, so the climate between us and sweden was cold there for a while, now itīs more the opposite, sweden has much more common with the us than russia today, and less public negative opinions against the us I think, I think the swedish public has been getting a changed image to the positive side..partly becuase of obama, I believe he is quite popular here..while the media negative press is about putin..especially after ukraine and some hostile military airforce crossing our borders.

life goes on with us watching mostly american shows, mc donalds is mostly in every community, one here in tyresö, a suburb to sthlm with around 45 822 habitans, and rising rapidly due to the immigrants, so there is a strain on the community which now needs to build a lot of homes, changing the infrastructure a lot, the green parts have to go away unfortunatly.
halloween the american way has become popular, it sells...but thanksgiving has no incitament to work here.,,,unless someone gives some gifts, thank you newtek/lightwave fellows.

prometheus
11-19-2015, 06:08 PM
oyah..
vikings is a pretty long distance back to 800īs
1700-1800 and to the end of that, we had a lot of wars, with danes, norwegians and russians, we owned finland for a very long time, but lost it to russia...last war against norway...two hundred years ago...king shot in the head, end of story...we imported a french marschalk/general I think..from napoleons army to be a king..and he is the ancestry to our king now...and the king is the state of the head Government, it is monarchy, not republic ..a sort of representive democracy..the king has no political real power, except for opening the parlament and being immune to prosecution.

RebelHill
11-19-2015, 06:49 PM
immune to prosecution.

0: wow, even england had the good sense to ditch that, long ago.

Either way... yeah... not really seeing much cause for "muslim grievance" in your brief history of the swedes.

prometheus
11-19-2015, 07:16 PM
0: wow, even england had the good sense to ditch that, long ago.

Either way... yeah... not really seeing much cause for "muslim grievance" in your brief history of the swedes.
Brief history? sweden is way older as a nation than the united states at least :D maybe I interpreted that wrong? is it jersey england?

we havenīt had immigrants with muslim background in that amount before, it started with the syria crises I think.
Canīt state anything really about muslim grieviance, Im more concerned about the immidiate terror threats from extremists..what happens then with culture conflicts in the long run, that is yet to be seen.

About monarchy, there was actually an historic motion (suggestion) sent to the parlement now in september oktober 2015, from some parties from both of the two blocks (yes..we have two blocks of democracy order, right and left, the block that gets the most wins the power..even if one party on the other side is the largest)

The motion suggest the removal of the monarchy, since itīs an old relic not compatible with democracy of today in sweden..and I agree.
The swedish royal court and the king is a very nice guy, and he has the very best in his eyes for sweden..but there are principle of equal value, not putting inherant state of heads that also benifits from having being birth with silverplates etc..and also not living in luxury and high horses at the court etc.

I believe it wonīt take long before it will be a change to republic, however the king is still appreciated by probably a major procent, so it will require work to get rid of the monarchy.
Funny note. in a debate about the being of monarchy vs republic, an actor was representiv for the republic association, he uttered, " It would be a good gesture if the royal court opens the doors to the castle, and let the immigrants stay there..lotīs of unused rooms) but I guess there are historic values that might be caused harm..so nothing is opened there, but then the royal court opened up for "the possibility" to host immigrants in some other facilities the royal court owns.

I need to drop the swedish history now..to avoid spinning of topic to much.

RebelHill
11-19-2015, 07:20 PM
I mean a history given in brief summary as opposed to one which doesnt go back that far.

probiner
11-19-2015, 07:35 PM
(...)
I dont know much about swedish history... but Im not aware of any great "meddling" in the middle east, colonialism, or any other such on your part. Since what we see here time and again is a lot of those who like to say "Its our own fault for our foreign policy" (as if our resistance to attacks were the cause of those attacks)... or its because of history (things that happened 200-100 yrs ago.. can't remember the last time I felt a need to punch a german [in a non football related incident ofc]).

But when youve got nartural born swedes either wanting to pop off to syria... or folk wanting to attack sweden (wherever they're from)... I think it kinda blows away the whole "greivance" argument, and really is just indicative of these peoples hated of our liberal, open, secular societies.

Don't need to put my arguments in wraps.

When your country sovereignty is violated, your land invaded, your men arrested and tortured (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse), your family is killed on the road by mercenaries (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92xdVmfuMBM), your resources seized, going to the market a russian roullete, predator drones strike your funerals (https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/02/04/obama-terror-drones-cia-tactics-in-pakistan-include-targeting-rescuers-and-funerals/) and weddings (http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/21/turning_a_wedding_into_a_funeral), etc, etc... who do you think it will empower, the peaceful trading people or the violent fundamentalists?
Repeating myself, look at all the interventions and what stayed in their place... What a heck are they doing there in the first place? You want to deny wrong doings of the West in the Middle-East to keep justifying privileged access to important resources, is it as simple as that? Explain yourself and not myself.

And then you try to couple and justify all that with the sweden situation, which is recent and evidently it has its own contours and people don't understand it, you included as admitted. See the credibility and objectivity issues?
And about Sweden's "no meddling", check https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTTb4FtQQrI or http://www.ibtimes.com/sweden-sends-troops-help-fight-against-islamic-state-group-iraq-1876284. There's direct involvement.

This is not ancient history (like the vikings). A country right now is going under this same process with West arming and support, Yemen, since April, with thousands dead and multiplicands of injured. Is it that hard to admit?

My point is this: If I repudiate and want to defend myself against evil, I should be encompassing, and clean myself too of evil.
If ISIS is supported by US allies in the region, Turkey (which had 80 killed in peace protest) and Saudis (beheadings much?), because they want Assad and Iran leadership gone, just like Israel (which has been strangely silent), one has to be honest about the violence it has enabled or ignored, and the resulting profits.

France is big in weapon exports; if armed men are a threat, they for sure have the means to defend themselves. I'm sure many people in Paris wish they could have done something that day and struggle with the impotence feeling of having all those people slain without the ability to fight back, while waiting 100 minutes or more for the authorities.

prometheus
11-19-2015, 07:37 PM
Don't need to put my arguments in wraps.

When your country sovereignty is violated, your land invaded, your men arrested and tortured (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse), your family is killed on the road by mercenaries (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92xdVmfuMBM), predator drone strikes a funeral (https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/02/04/obama-terror-drones-cia-tactics-in-pakistan-include-targeting-rescuers-and-funerals/) or a wedding (http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/21/turning_a_wedding_into_a_funeral) who do you think it will empower, the peaceful trading people or the violent fundamentalists? Repeating myself look at all the interventions and what stayed in their place... You want to deny wrong doings of the West in the middle east to keep justifying privileged access to important resources, is it as simple as that? Explain yourself and not myself.



And then you try to couple and justify all that with the sweden situation, which is recent and evidently it has its own contours and people don't understand it, you included as admitted. See the credibility and objectivity issues?

This is not ancient history (like the vikings). A country right now is going under this with West arming and support. Yemen, since April with thousands dead and multiplicands of injured. Is it that hard to admit?

with you? you are refering to? (confused)

OFF
11-19-2015, 07:46 PM
The long-term strategy to overcome Koranic Islam with the help of wheeler — dealers of the Biblical Project (http://dotu.ru/2010/02/18/20100218_strategy-to-overcome-koranic-islam/)


One of the main cultural problem of the global scale for the Biblical project wheeler-dealers is the Koranic Islam.
The very reason of this problem is explained by the fact that the global and political doctrine, the basis for the Western policy, is based on two statements:

- The thesis of Judaism predominance over the rest people and the obligation of other people to be tolerant towards them;

- The buying up of the whole world with its inhabitants and property on the basis of Jewish corporative transnational monopoly on usury.

In spite of the fact that these statements are not directly mentioned, they are being strictly implemented.

Koran denies the Judaism predominance doctrine over the rest people and the usury is under a strict ban and is characterized as a kind of Satanism. These statements are not practically used in the political life of Muslims, based on the alternative concept different to the Biblical slavery concept , the Western wheeler-dealers understand that Koran – is the potential threat to their global power regime imposition. This explains their desire to leave Koran in its historical legacy.

probiner
11-19-2015, 07:55 PM
with you? you are refering to? (confused)

Also not understanding you. What is it not clear?

lightscape
11-19-2015, 09:18 PM
As Prometheus allready mentioned, Gothenburg (Göteborg) is the biggest provider of IS "warriors" (think per capita... not numbers) of Europe. The sad thing about these numbers is that the majority of those that choose to go Jihad, are people _born_ in this country.

Some, extremely naive politicians, have said that we shouldn't do any actions against these people if they return, because it isn't "their fault" etc, etc...

Thankfully, we are now going to make "terror traveling" a crime.


Not their fault? No actions against them if they return? That's insane.
Its amazing how weak minded these people are to be brainwashed easily to join terrorism.


Prom - you mean this vid has no facts at all? http://buzzpo.com/this-is-the-most-disturbing-muslim-refugee-video-you-will-ever-see/

probiner
11-19-2015, 10:24 PM
Prom - you mean this vid has no facts at all? http://buzzpo.com/this-is-the-most-disturbing-muslim-refugee-video-you-will-ever-see/
That video has truthful images and worrying subjects (who wouldn't want to preserve their their identity, which DNA is part of) in an obviously montage for a fear factor. I could share Predator and Apache montages on rock music, killing people through thermal sights, but I guess it's not appropriate...

"When people lose it all, they lose it"

It's more than reasonable we question and oppose them coming over here, but we also have to question us, our governments, our NATO allies being over there too, fueling turmoil that puts those migrants on the run, like it happened in WW2 where people fled away from Europe. In some cases they are also having their genetic identity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNi_1pbSqGY) directly compromised.
Hence insisting we should be encompassing when we rightfully say we want security, freedom, preservation, etc...

Cheers

shrox
11-19-2015, 10:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B60VDlvX8J8

prometheus
11-20-2015, 01:09 AM
That video has truthful images and worrying subjects (who wouldn't want to preserve their their identity, which DNA is part of) in an obviously montage for a fear factor. I could share Predator and Apache montages on rock music, killing people through thermal sights, but I guess it's not appropriate...

"When people lose it all, they lose it"

It's more than reasonable we question and oppose them coming over here, but we also have to question us, our governments, our NATO allies being over there too, fueling turmoil that puts those migrants on the run, like it happened in WW2 where people fled away from Europe. In some cases they are also having their genetic identity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNi_1pbSqGY) directly compromised.
Hence insisting we should be encompassing when we rightfully say we want security, freedom, preservation, etc...

Cheers

Probiner..I am not sure to 100%, but to what I know of, it wasnīt the allied forces in world war 2 that fueled turmoil causing people to flee from europe, rather the german nazis, and to some degree the russians causing that.
in the middle east, I donīt believe it mainly to be Nato forces or france or even sweden with its little force ..causing the turmoil that is the main reason people are fleeing over to other countries, the escape started when IS was trapping up....maybe you argue that Nato is the cause IS was trapping up?
I might have misunderstood what you ment?

Nazis, boko haram, al quaida and IS...organizations with illusional hybris..world is better without it, one is down, a couple of more to fight this decade and perhaps longer, letīs hope for a bit better world further on for a long long time.
Personally I believe..and also hope we are actually seeing the death twitches from IS manifesting in this way now, but it may be getting worse still..before that devil stops twitching.

The suffering of people in syria, in africa, north korea..and probably many many more places...itīs too much to take in and comprehend perhaps, and I reckon so many of us in the western world distance ourself from all the tragedy around the world because of that, then again..itīs not my family, our family, itīs not my country....as long as the identification can be at distance with regards to different bonds, we can deal with it..a bit sad perhaps.
..not sure that is something that has evolved in the genes behaviour pattern to stay focused on your group of individuals, your tribe etc.

War belongs in games, not in the real world.

MarcusM
11-20-2015, 04:55 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

dickbill
11-20-2015, 11:17 AM
Facts: March 14, 2013
The French president reveals his intention to give weapons to the Syrian rebels, the so called 'moderate terrorists'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yc8r4zIPlc

shrox
11-20-2015, 11:29 AM
Facts: March 14, 2013
The French president reveals his intention to give weapons to the Syrian rebels, the so called 'moderate terrorists'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yc8r4zIPlc

That was over two years ago, things change VERY quickly.

prometheus
11-20-2015, 12:35 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

honestly..that looks like gumballs in jars, not people living in land areas in proportion to what united states has to offer in land, resources.

so..to me this seems utterly ridiculous to compare, did he measure that united states jar in relation to all others and with a proportional measurment towards the gumbalss?

oh well..funny to see folks having lecture earning loads of money by making people go..wow, it is like that.

Just my perspective and first reaction on it..I could of course be completly out on the roof by myself:D

erikals
11-20-2015, 12:39 PM
hmm... so... we need a LightWave anim showing it?...

maybe...?

dickbill
11-20-2015, 12:56 PM
Correct, things change. It doesn't take a PhD to understand that some 'moderates' will loose their 'moderation' over time and that it was a bad move to give weapons to self-proclaim moderates.
This is a total farce. I remember the sort of Ultimatum that Obama gave :" If chemical weapons are used, then we do something to help the moderates" , boom 2 weeks later chemical weapons are used.

This is in short what said the French author Michel Houellebecq in
http://www.lesinrocks.com/2015/11/19/livres/attentats-du-13-novembre-michel-houellebecq-sen-prend-violemment-a-francois-hollande-et-manuel-valls-11788746/
original interview here:
http://www.corriere.it/cultura/15_novembre_19/attentati-parigi-houellebecq-io-accuso-hollande-difendo-francesi-eafac2b2-8e84-11e5-aea5-af74b18a84ea.shtml?refresh_ce-cp

“La situation malheureuse dans laquelle nous nous trouvons est due ā nos responsables politiques ; et ces responsabilités politiques devront ętre tôt au tard analysées. Il est trčs peu probable que l’insignifiant opportuniste qui occupe le poste de chef de l’Etat ou les actes dignes d’un retardé congénital du Premier ministre, sans citer les ‘ténors de l’opposition’ (LOL), sortent avec les honneurs de cet épisode.”

I translate;

"Today's unfortunate situation is the result of the decisions of our political leaders. These political responsibilities will be analyzed soon or later. It is very unlikely that the insignificant and opportunistic individual who is holding the title of 'chief of state', or his moronic Prime minister, who is acting like a total retard, not forgetting the opposition leaders, will leave with honors from this episode"

prometheus
11-20-2015, 01:38 PM
hmm... so... we need a LightWave anim showing it?...

maybe...?


too complex, even too complex for graphs and charts on the wall, probably easier to use a jar and gumballs and itīs done, see how simple it is.. and people would goo..ahh...but by all means, I think there was a thread somewhere and with gumballs, so if anyone is up too it :)

c.1
11-21-2015, 12:03 AM
And now Mali, all I can say is F*CK YOU terrorists!!!

prometheus
11-21-2015, 02:32 AM
And now Mali, all I can say is F*CK YOU terrorists!!!

Yes...tragic.

but the terrorist are killing themself for every attack they do..the hitback will be even more and worse..so to give some encourage..the terrorist is digging their own graves..a matter of time and money, but I have not doubt about it.

erikals
11-21-2015, 03:05 AM
it seems we get less wars, but more terrorism...

technology is a terrorist's best friend, kinda sucks... :/

probiner
11-21-2015, 03:33 AM
I might have misunderstood what you ment?

WW2 reference was about the exodus due to bellic invasions in Europe. Who is doing them nowdays in the Middle East region, thousands of miles away from home, or enabling others in them?
Go read my other posts, I presented enough examples already in the relation to NATO interventions and what's left in their place.
Apparently you seem to think they are fully justified, so I'm guessing more exposition won't change your mind.

Saw this interview with a Paris shooting survivor... The description of running for your life and carrying for no one... gut wrenching... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sdJmqWMT_M



it seems we get less wars, but more terrorism...

Less wars and more invasion/occupation. Aka continuous rape and looting for those that stay alive, vs an actual a battle between armies. When you're considered terrorist, an insurgent, because you're bearing arms in your country by guys sitting in a chopper behind a 30mm machine-gun with thermal sights at night, or in an A-10... hard to consider it a war.
Now, them continuously poking Russia... Sanctions are an act of war, just not military, for now...

prometheus
11-21-2015, 05:17 PM
WW2 reference was about the exodus due to bellic invasions in Europe. Who is doing them nowdays in the Middle East region, thousands of miles away from home, or enabling others in them?
Go read my other posts, I presented enough examples already in the relation to NATO interventions and what's left in their place.
Apparently you seem to think they are fully justified, so I'm guessing more exposition won't change your mind.

Saw this interview with a Paris shooting survivor... The description of running for your life and carrying for no one... gut wrenching... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sdJmqWMT_M


Less wars and more invasion/occupation. Aka continuous rape and looting for those that stay alive, vs an actual a battle between armies. When you're considered terrorist, an insurgent, because you're bearing arms in your country by guys sitting in a chopper behind a 30mm machine-gun with thermal sights at night, or in an A-10... hard to consider it a war.
Now, them continuously poking Russia... Sanctions are an act of war, just not military, for now...

Yes..I think military forces Now are justified, history behind it..yes dubious, which act was sort of Creating the ISIS and al quaida..that is one story and part of it all.....but if one think it would be all better if Allied forces sit back and instead send cookies over there, and believe they will say thank you friend, we will send a cake back without bombs...then I think a reality check would be in order.
I do not have the time and energy to check all your posts, if it was easy to follow maybe..but it is way too much of this and that and this and that...for me itīs just to much detailed very long discussion for me to have patience and follow..if you short it down and sum it better perhaps..I am not arguing about those posts of you being wrong or right..havenīt followed them fully...I leave it at that.

To me it seems you jump irradicilly from world war, to nato inventions, to paris..in some kind of order I am having trouble of following...hard for me to follow properly...at least I canīt see the connections between referenced events in that order.

Cageman
11-21-2015, 05:39 PM
To me there have been a way to Oversmoothing a debate of immigrant politics, sort of the empires clothes climate when discussing immigrants, racism etc, the debate took a turn when right wingers focused on immigrants and openly said..not racism..itīs about immigrant level and other threats, not the actual race or color, with that it seems the major parties couldnīt debate against that, the word of the day became, stranger hostile..which become very popular and sort of if you are stranger hostile, you are racists..but they didnīt openly say so.

Yep... this is one of Swedens biggest issues right now...

In essence... if you, for some reason, have objections to the number of refugees coming in, you are a racist. Period.

This, as prometheus also explains very well, is feeding SD (Swedish Democrats), and it is not a good thing. It feels like all the established parties are digging their own grave by stating that anyone who is questioning the level of imigrants or refugees, are racists.

Instead, they should talk about it, be open about the costs, be open about what might or might not happen if we run out of money (which we are on the brink of doing at this point).

Am I a racist if I choose to eat at home, instead of that Chineese resturant that is expensive, but very good at a time where I do not afford to do so?

No.

Am I a racist if someone bangs on my door and ask me to provide for him/her, and I say... "Sorry, I can not afford to have you as well. I which I could, but I can't... Best luck to you..."

No... but... a whole bunch of people in Sweden thinks that Number 2 is equal to being racist.

*SIGH*

prometheus
11-21-2015, 05:44 PM
Cageman ..I think we could take a beer and cheer about that you and me...oh wait, you are from malmo, Im from stockholm and I donīt drink beer.

If one look straight at a problem we will find a problem..if you close your eye..we donīt see a problem, maybe that is how to solve things in major parties politics.

Cageman
11-21-2015, 05:59 PM
Cageman ..I think we could take a beer and cheer about that you and me...oh wait, you are from malmo, Im from stockholm and I donīt drink beer.

Yep... and Yep. I can drink an extra beer for you. :)

erikals
11-21-2015, 05:59 PM
In essence... if you, for some reason, have objections to the number of refugees coming in, you are a racist. Period.
same in Norway.

Cageman
11-21-2015, 06:03 PM
same in Norway.

Have you even had problems with imigrants? (as in a totally failed integration policy).

erikals
11-21-2015, 06:14 PM
totally.

watch the video where 200-ish immigrants in Norway raise their hand to a question if it's alright to stone a woman for adultery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61KsT5YixF0

so a problem seems to be when immigrants tell one story to a Norwegian born, another story to a Muslim.
it's known as "lying" last time i checked.

i just hope that the Muslims in this video are a minority, somehow...

prometheus
11-21-2015, 06:46 PM
Did he say stone the women straight out?, I thought he referenced allha and possible punishment( but thay may be equal?)

I also noticed a comment on that channel about nazis etc...a bit sad to see, I wish people could distingish humans from beliefs controlling them, in my opinion..nothing wrong with these people if they are tought something else, unfortunatly religion has been in history a control system and is still today, to invoke fear, raise hope..control masses etc...itīs a double edged sword it seems, allow freedoom of religio?, which means allow for extreme views on the human value.
fearing the Muslim look..well, not because they are born with those attributes neither because they are from that race, they all have the same human value as next of kind according to mee... but I believe many in the western world fears it because people tend to look like that (the majority anyway) coming from cultures where these religious fanatics are having a stronghold of.

I could care less about looks otherwise...but I am not fooling myself or anyone else that itīs not a factor in relation to having fear of people coming from other cultures, but I just canīt make the connections to racism from my part

I would state that there is cultural and religious conflicts when these meets, especially when so fundamental different...the world is fooling itself if not recognizing it and discussing it soberly.
Michael

shrox
11-21-2015, 06:48 PM
This is what the hub-bub is about. Issac or Ishmael, who is the proper heir of Abraham?

erikals
11-21-2015, 07:28 PM
Did he say stone the women straight out?, I thought he referenced allha and possible punishment( but thay may be equal?)
sorry, but it's pretty clear in the video.

if you watch the full video, at Islam Net Video, you'll hear one of the other guys saying,
"this is the best answer i have ever heard"

lightscape
11-21-2015, 08:23 PM
totally.

watch the video where 200-ish immigrants in Norway raise their hand to a question if it's alright to stone a woman for adultery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61KsT5YixF0

so a problem seems to be when immigrants tell one story to a Norwegian born, another story to a Muslim.
it's known as "lying" last time i checked.

i just hope that the Muslims in this video are a minority, somehow...


It should start with muslim women.
They should fight for their rights and not be weak. Then maybe Islam will change its way not just with treating women but also treating other people who are not muslim.

I didn't get the question with men and women sitting down separately. What's that all about?

Ah but its inevitable that Islam will take over the world. They have multiple wives with dozens of children. I want to join. :D

probiner
11-21-2015, 08:33 PM
No one is rallying for peace... or if you do... http://www.ibtimes.com/turkish-bomb-blasts-more-80-people-dead-terror-attack-ankara-train-station-2136023


Yes..I think military forces Now are justified, history behind it..yes dubious, which act was sort of Creating the ISIS and al quaida..that is one story and part of it all.....but if one think it would be all better if Allied forces sit back and instead send cookies over there, and believe they will say thank you friend, we will send a cake back without bombs...then I think a reality check would be in order.
I do not have the time and energy to check all your posts, if it was easy to follow maybe..but it is way too much of this and that and this and that...for me itīs just to much detailed very long discussion for me to have patience and follow..if you short it down and sum it better perhaps..I am not arguing about those posts of you being wrong or right..havenīt followed them fully...I leave it at that.
Only now? What about when they creeped up all over Iraq and even started running oil mills (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/19/-sp-islamic-state-oil-empire-iraq-isis)? What? And now Syria is where they have to go?
"Allied" forces are now aiding war against Yemen. Is it that hard to understand? Is that justified? http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/04/03/404456/US-to-refuel-Saudi-warplanes-in-Yemen
They have been funding, arming and training the "Moderate" opposition" in Syria for years! Pouring weapons and vehicles both there and in Iraq to "solve" things. Is it not strange in some images to see ISIS mounting Humvees (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/01/isis-captured-2300-humvee-armoured-vehicles-from-iraqi-forces-in-mosul) and displaying M4s (http://img.over-blog-kiwi.com/0/78/07/19/20140909/ob_9994d6_syrie-isis-m4-us.jpg)?

The violent groups' truthful origins, support and direction might not be clear. But the interventions results are on display.



To me it seems you jump irradicilly from world war, to nato inventions, to Paris..in some kind of order I am having trouble of following...hard for me to follow properly...at least I canīt see the connections between referenced events in that order.
WW2 mentioned for similar, given there was also an exodus of refugees, but from Europe to other countries. Didn't they made it to their destination and build their life there? But (!) I'm sure they would mostly stick around if there was peace.
NATO interventions because people are calling for... an intervention... because of... Paris. Will it be to aid Syria? The actions so far where in the opposite direction.
I guess that sums it up.
I'm just saying: It's not honest to address security due to migrants and shootings and also want to ignore or even support what we/our allies are doing over there. I know it's more uncomfortable to address the fact your "brother" is an evil-doer than the guy roaming in your property because his was destroyed with your brother's involvement.



Yep... this is one of Swedens biggest issues right now...
In essence... if you, for some reason, have objections to the number of refugees coming in, you are a racist. Period.
There are people very busy polarizing everything so no rational discussion can be held by people with different views, so that is no surprise. What's the most intelligent way to stop the mass migration? Build peace in the region, support the existing camps, etc. People will eventually stop coming and return. This is not recent history, war in Syria is going on for 4 years now... 4 years of refugee in a camp?... There are stories that the stampede wasn't totally spontaneous but due to what was happening in the camps, and that people were simply told there were no more resources to support them.

Being discriminatory is not a bad thing in itself, we do it all the time in our daily life decisions, preferring people, things, actions and situations to other alternatives. And one definitely has all the right to be concerned about his or her community safety, knowing that just letting people in, like nothing will go wrong, is not the solution. But it's also no solution to ignore what's happening, why, and if the proposed solutions will actually remove the murdering forces and building peace, or instead, add to the damage.

prometheus
11-21-2015, 10:59 PM
No one is rallying for peace... or if you do... http://www.ibtimes.com/turkish-bomb-blasts-more-80-people-dead-terror-attack-ankara-train-station-2136023


Only now? What about when they creeped up all over Iraq and even started running oil mills (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/19/-sp-islamic-state-oil-empire-iraq-isis)? What? And now Syria is where they have to go?
"Allied" forces are now aiding war against Yemen. Is it that hard to understand? Is that justified? http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/04/03/404456/US-to-refuel-Saudi-warplanes-in-Yemen
They have been funding, arming and training the "Moderate" opposition" in Syria for years! Pouring weapons and vehicles both there and in Iraq to "solve" things. Is it not strange in some images to see ISIS mounting Humvees (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/01/isis-captured-2300-humvee-armoured-vehicles-from-iraqi-forces-in-mosul) and displaying M4s (http://img.over-blog-kiwi.com/0/78/07/19/20140909/ob_9994d6_syrie-isis-m4-us.jpg)?

The violent groups' truthful origins, support and direction might not be clear. But the interventions results are on display.


WW2 mentioned for similar, given there was also an exodus of refugees, but from Europe to other countries. Didn't they made it to their destination and build their life there? But (!) I'm sure they would mostly stick around if there was peace.
NATO interventions because people are calling for... an intervention... because of... Paris. Will it be to aid Syria? The actions so far where in the opposite direction.
I guess that sums it up.
I'm just saying: It's not honest to address security due to migrants and shootings and also want to ignore or even support what we/our allies are doing over there. I know it's more uncomfortable to address the fact your "brother" is an evil-doer than the guy roaming in your property because his was destroyed with your brother's involvement.



There are people very busy polarizing everything so no rational discussion can be held by people with different views, so that is no surprise. What's the most intelligent way to stop the mass migration? Build peace in the region, support the existing camps, etc. People will eventually stop coming and return. This is not recent history, war in Syria is going on for 4 years now... 4 years of refugee in a camp?... There are stories that the stampede wasn't totally spontaneous but due to what was happening in the camps, and that people were simply told there were no more resources to support them.

Being discriminatory is not a bad thing in itself, we do it all the time in our daily life decisions, preferring people, things, actions and situations to other alternatives. And one definitely has all the right to be concerned about his or her community safety, knowing that just letting people in, like nothing will go wrong, is not the solution. But it's also no solution to ignore what's happening, why, and if the proposed solutions will actually remove the murdering forces and building peace, or instead, add to the damage.

I am having real hard time following your thought process here probiner, either it might be a language barrier, or you are unclear and are splitting the questions to connections you understand..but I and some others might not be able to make the connection too..I donīt know.

Lets se what you said, you said "only now" I suppose that was a an aswer to me about in my first quote and row saying "yes I think it Now is justified" that does not imply I said it hasnīt been justified earlier, it was more of emphasis on I donīt see anything wrong with the actions Now... I argue that Going to iraq in the first place might not have been a good action and what consequently arised from that in terms of instability and at that time giving arms to people that should not have it.

and after that when IS and al qaida was going on rampage, I thought it was wise to counter attack, I donīt believe the effort was enough....ground troup is in my meaning a must, and it would cost the us too much I guess in loss o life, and as cagemen mentioned, not until europe or their own homeland is at risc...the us steps in the shoes.

I agree with you on the best way to stop the immigration would be to bring peace in the region, I donīt think anyone argues against that really, except the terrorists who donīt want it...question is how to build the peace in the region, and what actions needed to implement it the fastest way..as long as violent forces are there without any respect for you delivering cookies, flowers and peace to them..I would advice donīt go there trying to do so.
There is a multitude of solutions on how to get it stable and peaceful, sadly know one today knows what action that indeed will end it ...that is for the future to show.

summing it up shortly..I donīt think allied forces can draw back and that would bring peace in the region..I am supporting the military action over there and that is Now more than ever, I am actually a pacifist, not doing the military service ..wanted civil firefighting instead...and I look up to thoughts of ghandi, dalai lama nelson mandela...but there are no absolutes all the times, Nelson Mandela also said..there comes a time when you have to raise your fist and fight for survival.(something along that spirit anyway)

what has happened before is a mess..actions taken from allied forces could have had made situation worse..and probably did so that I think is the case, It doesnīt mean they should drop the fists and reveal the face for a punch back at this time..not until the other sucker is down on the floor.

you are arguing that itīs not honest to adress shootings and immigrant security if you support the war over there? that I do not understand, I do not see any conflicting issue by seperating those two issues.

yemen? you bring up connections to things I havenīt mentioned at all, itīs hard to follow your thoughts, how can I answer a question why I not understand..when the question itself is about something you simply canīt ask me anything about from that point of view?

Just realized probiner, are you native portugal?...have you lived in the us or england and are fluent in the english language?.. as a swede I am not fluent in english to such extent as a native englishman or american are..and I think some of that may have to do with the fact I am having issues following you on this...we might both be discussing in a foreign language that isnīt ideal for us when dealing with deeper social/political and psychological debates?

Michael

djwaterman
11-24-2015, 07:11 AM
I thought some of you might find the latest Sam Harris podcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p4gltRsKQs) interesting on this topic.

probiner
11-24-2015, 09:07 AM
(...)
Just realized probiner, are you native portugal?...have you lived in the us or england and are fluent in the english language?.. as a swede I am not fluent in english to such extent as a native englishman or american are..and I think some of that may have to do with the fact I am having issues following you on this...we might both be discussing in a foreign language that isnīt ideal for us when dealing with deeper social/political and psychological debates?

Michael
My English, though process and exposition have many flaws, but none is an impediment to make a point across, for information to be checked and the conversation keep rolling. In honesty, I'm taking the "Language and mixing subjects" arguments as excusatory from having to address the elephants in the room, while just keep focusing on the poop they leave behind. Hence I've said; "(...) so I'm guessing more exposition won't change your mind.".

(...)
you are arguing that itīs not honest to adress shootings and immigrant security if you support the war over there? that I do not understand, I do not see any conflicting issue by seperating those two issues.

yemen? you bring up connections to things I havenīt mentioned at all, itīs hard to follow your thoughts, how can I answer a question why I not understand..when the question itself is about something you simply canīt ask me anything about from that point of view?
(...)
You guys want to focus on migration, islamization of Europe and "Not in my backyard!". Well go ahead, there's many things to be discussed and improved about Europe inner workings. But, if you want to talk about waging war in another country, I would guess it would be honest to talk what's going on in the region and even go a few years back (not many needed). Unless you and your relatives are enlisting to go fight there and see it all by yourselves.

4 years ago the if I mentioned the Syrian's civil war while in a discussion about Europe islamization or terrorism you would have said there was no relationship... I mentioned Yemen as current a example of war being fueled by our greatest ally, as we were discussing about NATO interventions and how fair they are and me mentioning what they leave behind. How did ISIS came to be? How is it funded? Questions before war, no?

EU buying ISIS oil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OLF2rDSpo
... from Turkey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2h-fIG9TnM
80 killed while actively rallying for peace(heros), in Turkey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB-pz-aFbgw
Russians fighters in Syria by the local government request. But Turkey (NATO member) today downed one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQofvV-6JH0
I'm guessing those oil exports weren't going so well after russian aid.

As far as we know, Paris could be a violent stagging; wouldn't be the first... Just wait a moment and look at the police state rising in Europe... But if you want to talk about islamic fundamentalism, ISIS, etc, why do you want to ignore what's going on there?


(...)
question is how to build the peace in the region
(...)
Definitely it depends on how sincere people are about it... Starts by stepping away. Patrol the borders in your country and not there. Collaborate with people that are about maintaining peace, instead of pushing for violent regime change. Now, just depends if one can open hand or not and how compromised it is... Heck we had a regime change in Europe just recently in Ukraine. Or, well, in my country the plane with the prime-minister and the defense secretary was downed "information agency"-style, 25 years ago. It's only when you push back you see how tight the grip is.

Cheers

Edit: I think this Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement has its application here, for me included ;)

http://uber.la/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Picture-62.png

RebelHill
11-24-2015, 10:13 AM
the best way to stop the immigration would be to bring peace in the region, I donīt think anyone argues against that really, except the terrorists who donīt want it...question is how to build the peace in the region, and what actions needed to implement it the fastest way.

Sadly, it becomes ever clearer (and at this point is night on irrefutable), that the continued asking of this question is perhaps OUR greatest problem in attempting to understand this (and similar) situations. The simlpe fact is that WE cannot build peace in the region... we cant just GIVE them peace or stability somehow, and yet, we continue to search for some solution as though we could.

Each country, each society, each civilisation has to sort out its own problems for itself and by itself. Thats the only thing that ever works. Do you think there's some sort of "policy of action" we in europe could adopt which would solve the gun crime rates in the US, or help settle the arguments about the second amendment for them. Ofc not, its clearly a ridiculous notion. Those issues are for americans to sort out for themselves. Those of us on the outside can stick our oars in with as much suggestion, commentary, pleading, or illustration of alternatives as we like, and sometimes it'll be welcomed and sometimes it wont... but ultimately, none of it will actually bring about any change to the issues, only the american public, politicians and voters can do that.

You can bomb or back, arm or isolate any which mix of groups/sides you want in the middle east, and whilst you might change the dynamic somewhat, shift the centre of gravity on with whom the balance of power lies to some degree... what you WONT actually do is "create" a peace or stability that hasnt grown from within.

VonBon
11-24-2015, 10:39 AM
Sadly, it becomes ever clearer (and at this point is night on irrefutable), that the continued asking of this question is perhaps OUR greatest problem in attempting to understand this (and similar) situations. The simlpe fact is that WE cannot build peace in the region... we cant just GIVE them peace or stability somehow, and yet, we continue to search for some solution as though we could.

Each country, each society, each civilisation has to sort out its own problems for itself and by itself. Thats the only thing that ever works. Do you think there's some sort of "policy of action" we in europe could adopt which would solve the gun crime rates in the US, or help settle the arguments about the second amendment for them. Ofc not, its clearly a ridiculous notion. Those issues are for americans to sort out for themselves. Those of us on the outside can stick our oars in with as much suggestion, commentary, pleading, or illustration of alternatives as we like, and sometimes it'll be welcomed and sometimes it wont... but ultimately, none of it will actually bring about any change to the issues, only the american public, politicians and voters can do that.

You can bomb or back, arm or isolate any which mix of groups/sides you want in the middle east, and whilst you might change the dynamic somewhat, shift the centre of gravity on with whom the balance of power lies to some degree... what you WONT actually do is "create" a peace or stability that hasnt grown from within.

:agree: 100% Truth

erikals
11-24-2015, 10:51 AM
so EU/US could not have saved 750.000 killed in Rwanda during the 3 months genocide?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide


WE cannot build peace in the region
true, but we could push the death toll down.

but yeah, it's a damn tricky situation. no question.

RebelHill
11-24-2015, 10:55 AM
we could push the death toll down.

How?

And if the "peace" itself remains unsettled, how do you know that you've actually lowered the body count rather than either displacing or deferring it?

For instance... iraq. Over his decades in power, saddam killed (or had killed rather) several hundred thousand people. Then ofc, you have his removal in 2003, followed by near anarchy resulting in the deaths of near two hundred thousand more killed "internally" (that is, iraqis killed by other iraqis and not counting civilian casualties of western forces in the country). This "internal" body count per year was greater after saddam than during. So by preventing the killings of people who would have been killed by saddam, those people were instead unleashed to commit their own killings.

The better solution is to not try and free people, but to allow them to free themselves... to reach the point where the collective opposition to their dictator/system/whatever is so great that it overpowers their opposition to each other. Thus, when the revolution comes, there exists a greater (though obviously not complete) level of unity between the revolutionaries, and thus the aftermath has a better chance of emerging in an ordered fashion.

Same in libya, and it'd be the same in syria.

Exceptions... egypt. No one from the outside interviened, and although there's been turmoil, ad things havent gone smoothly, theres been no collapse into all out civil war/sectarian violence, etc. Why... cos the egyptians have just been left alone to deal with it themselves and sort out their own problems.

erikals
11-24-2015, 11:12 AM
Russians fighters in Syria by the local government request. But Turkey (NATO member) today downed one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQofvV-6JH0
sorry, BS.

it's not the first time the Russians fighters cross the border, happened in Norway too.
usually they just fly close, or in international air space controlled by Norway, but last year they decided to cross it.
and yeah, i'm sure Russia is in Syria to create peace. Crimenal

erikals
11-24-2015, 11:32 AM
How?

And if the "peace" itself remains unsettled, how do you know that you've actually lowered the body count rather than either displacing or deferring it?

For instance... iraq. Over his decades in power, saddam killed (or had killed rather) several hundred thousand people. Then ofc, you have his removal in 2003, followed by near anarchy resulting in the deaths of near two hundred thousand more killed "internally" (that is, iraqis killed by other iraqis and not counting civilian casualties of western forces in the country). This "internal" body count per year was greater after saddam than during. So by preventing the killings of people who would have been killed by saddam, those people were instead unleashed to commit their own killings.

The better solution is to not try and free people, but to allow them to free themselves... to reach the point where the collective opposition to their dictator/system/whatever is so great that it overpowers their opposition to each other. Thus, when the revolution comes, there exists a greater (though obviously not complete) level of unity between the revolutionaries, and thus the aftermath has a better chance of emerging in an ordered fashion.

Same in libya, and it'd be the same in syria.

Exceptions... egypt. No one from the outside interviened, and although there's been turmoil, ad things havent gone smoothly, theres been no collapse into all out civil war/sectarian violence, etc. Why... cos the egyptians have just been left alone to deal with it themselves and sort out their own problems.

well, i think we basically agree. Well written. i'm unsure about the Rwanda case.
i think i'm just supporting, say 10% of the interventions, while you are going for 0%.
you could be right, i need to go to the thinking corner on this one.

RebelHill
11-24-2015, 11:48 AM
i think i'm just supporting, say 10% of the interventions, while you are going for 0%.

Not so... I think in certain situations, you have no choice but to try and intervene... Usually in the case of trying to prevent acts of genocide. I actually think an intervention in rwanda could have helped lessen the blow, without casusing so much in the way of fallout, as happened with the bosnian conflict.

However, these types of situations are different than trying to intervene in a countries internal political problems or divisions... and no matter what, there's no intervention possible that can give peace to two sides hell bent on war (be it between nations or civil). The victors will never thank you and the losers will never forgive you, nor shall they ever see the victory over them as legitimate. If you and I are having a scrap, and I bring in some hulking pal to kick your arse on my behalf... would you regard ME as the winner?

Ofc, things can also vary by conflict or region, and the simple fact in the middle east for many decades now, is that every time there is an uprising/rebellion/whatever... it is ALWAYS an islamic uprising. So you're left with the choice, if you do wish to intervene, of either backing dictators, or backing islamists.

50one
11-24-2015, 12:21 PM
sorry, BS.

it's not the first time the Russians fighters cross the border, happened in Norway too.
usually they just fly close, or in international air space controlled by Norway, but last year they decided to cross it.
and yeah, i'm sure Russia is in Syria to create peace. Crimenal

more than 50% of Ukraine are Russians, cannot blame them for sezing the Crimea since they've got military bases there and they couldn't allow the west sponsored right sector to do coup and change the management of country close to Russian borders.

Turkey as a country is cluster of different ethnic groups - you 've got a lot of progressive/western loving people but also militant groups here and there of various ethnic origins. One of the reasons Turkey was allowed in Nato is the fact that it will be buffer zone, nothing more or less. once all hell break loose Nato will turn their back and the whole country will be leveled becasue they downed this fkin plane for whatever reason.

ISIL do sell the oil to Turkey and few other countries.

I would be shitting myself if I were the Turkey cause they poking the bear with a stick.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxxICipVnWQ

So, shooting at downed pilots. I think their NATO membership should be revoked for this, regardless what people they shoot at. Geneva/Human Rights/POW/ and all that.

50one
11-24-2015, 12:58 PM
Another hostage situation in Paris...So we can stay on topic.

prometheus
11-24-2015, 01:50 PM
Sadly, it becomes ever clearer (and at this point is night on irrefutable), that the continued asking of this question is perhaps OUR greatest problem in attempting to understand this (and similar) situations. The simlpe fact is that WE cannot build peace in the region... we cant just GIVE them peace or stability somehow, and yet, we continue to search for some solution as though we could.

Each country, each society, each civilisation has to sort out its own problems for itself and by itself. Thats the only thing that ever works. Do you think there's some sort of "policy of action" we in europe could adopt which would solve the gun crime rates in the US, .


I might be taking this out of the bigger context...but I think your thoughts about it is a bit of narrow and out of context too, and not in relation to same governing principles.

Generally I think I understand that bombing ALONE wonīt solve it etc..
But you also mentioned it has to be solved by themself, well..letīs see now? historicly I wouldnīt bet on the nazis solving itīs problem on their own, when extreme values goes to violate other nations..not by a long shot.
So I canīt consolidate with those thoughts completly..to some degree yes.

The connection to guns in america, well..thatīs quite a different situation, though still violent and a huge issue...but putting it up as the same governing process map for how it is working for nations in war and terrorism, well...I donīt see the similarities in that.

Latest news in sweden..the wanted "suspected" terrorist that was arrested is released and he is no longer suspected, possible he might end up getting a lof of money if he files a suit.

the swedish prime minister made a statement recently that now sweden canīt take it anymore..regarding the immigrant flow, we are now changing some rules to try and decrease the amount of immigrants, our communty politicians and welfare system says it canīt handle it..so we need some breathing space ...sort of.

RebelHill
11-24-2015, 02:10 PM
historicly I wouldnīt bet on the nazis solving itīs problem on their own, when extreme values goes to violate other nations..not by a long shot.

The nazis werent involved in a civil war in germany... they were agressors and invaders. Tackling that is NOT intervention, its self defense (or coming to the defence of a friend asking for help in the case of poland).

The question was how can we "produce" peace in countries like syria (and I would suppose libya/afghanistan/etc)... the answer is WE cant. There's nothing WE can do.


The connection to guns in america, well..thatīs quite a different situation, though still violent and a huge issue...but putting it up as the same governing process map for how it is working for nations in war and terrorism, well...I donīt see the similarities in that.

The point is that you cant change the internal political situation inside someone elses country or society from without... its a change that has to come from within.