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batzilla
12-08-2003, 04:39 PM
I bought LW about a year or so ago(v.7) for $2400.Right after that Newtek drops the price to $1500. Now I have to pay another $500 to upgrade to 8.Making my totla investment at $3K

What bugs me is you can get LW8 w/DFX and Inside LW book for $1229 (cant remember where I saw this) but it just kinda rubs me the wrong way when i've been supporting Newtek for over a year now and someone new will save about $1700 over what I spent.

I just cant believe that someone (me: ) who bought it RIGHT before the (huge) price drop has to shell out another $500 for the upgrade.

I do understand that this is how life in the software world is at times but I still think it stinks.As a matter of fact it makes me think more and more about moving in another direction.I make my money with LW modeling only but am diving head first into animation early next year and me thinks maybe Maya is the way to go.

I dunno...unless LW8's animation tools are REALLY improved I may jump ship.

BTW, Messiah: Animates demo is awesome.Maybe LW8 will be similiar???


Just wanted to get this off my chest.

WilliamVaughan
12-08-2003, 04:44 PM
There is always a cut off point for price changes and you should check to see if you qualify (tho it may be too late). Prices change all teh time...I bought 6 seats of LW at 2,499.00 and a few months later the price changed,....that is what happens sometimes....Not sure what else to say on that one.

Psyhke
12-08-2003, 04:46 PM
Well if you feel Alias is any different, think again. It shouldn't be too hard to find several threads out there started by people royaly p**sed off after their $6,000 investment in Maya was cut down to $2,000 overnight at about the same time LW dropped their prices...

retinajoy
12-08-2003, 04:53 PM
If you want all the features (unlike Complete), here in the UK the full version of Maya unlimited is £5,751.63. Then you can only render on one machine unless you pay up more money and then you have to pay even more for maintenance upgrades. Lightwave looks the best deal to me, especially if the char tools live up to most peoples expectations. The point releases which you don't pay for are usually good too.

batzilla
12-08-2003, 04:59 PM
yup...LW is awesome and thats a good point about Maya's price drop.

I guess I just wanna be a little more compatible with what most studios use and it seems to me either Maya or Softimage,even Max has more of a user base in animation than LW.

Perhaps this will change.

I also Hope Newtek has a downloadable demo of 8 so I can see if I wannna fork out another $500.If not then either Maya or the combo of LW 7.5's modeler and Messiah looks good.


We shall see : )

cresshead
12-08-2003, 05:24 PM
let's take a look at one's options...

3dsmax
£2695...never has changed it's price from version 1 to right now with max 6...so on the upside you'd have not had many suprises over the years except they really want you to get on subscription which is about £200 per year...though as you'll realise everyone EXCEPT 3dsmax has dropped their price...

subscription is £400 to get on it and £200 per year...sao start up is £600plus vat

also if you just want to upgrade and not go on subscription that'll be around £595plus vat per version....ie if you upgrade from max 4 to max 6 you'll pay £1400 inc vat...lightwave's upgrade are for any pc version to the latest and no extra cost...

you only get one render node for mental ray
character studio 4 is around £700plus vat

maya
seems quite a bargin with complete and in my opinion FWIW maya complete is pretty complete and retails at £1400 plus vat of course...but upgrades are around £800 and this also includes the upgrade from 4.5 to 5..so a 0.5 update is £800!...making 2 upgrades about the same as the app if not more!
you only get one render node for mental ray.
It is very capable but i'm finding learning [mayaple] to be a steep curve with little reward so far...

cinema4d
pretty cheap to get into it at around £450 for the base version but you'll need the rest of the modules [advanced renderer,mocca etc] to get on a almost even footing to lightwave...but that'll cost you around £1800 plus vat for the full setup...and the point upgrade costs you around £250 for bug fix and fbx etc.

softimage 4.0
£800 for the full works [extreeme version] but you only get one render node for mental ray.
plus i'd doubt it will get anymore updates...they want you on Xsi now...

Xsi
around£6000-£10000 for one render node of mental ray and a very nice 3d app....mainanence is pretty high though.

lightwave?
£670 plus vat...lightwave 7.5
you get 3 dvd training discs
2 installs..you can choose mac or pc...no extra cost to the artist..you are buying the use of the software NOT the os it runs on...[Very cool idea!]

if you are upgrading it's £400 but you get either digital fusion+ which ships for around $1200 or you can have 5 training dvd's on lightwave that are retailing for around £250 plus vat...
nice deal if you ask me!

note that no other vendor gives you both install that you can use!
...

you get free download to lightwave 8
and free point releases above 8.0
..and it's looking as though lightwave 8.0 will really ROCK!

now then...who loo0ks to have the best initial deal?
and who has the best long term deal?

TyVole
12-08-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by proton
...I bought 6 seats of LW at 2,499.00 and a few months later the price changed,....

I wonder if you bought the 6 seats or your company bought the 6 seats. There's a difference.

batzilla,

I can feel your pain. I bought 7.5 three days before the free upgrade to 8. Like you, I was upset (especially when Newtek never replied to my letter) -- but I still got the upgrade -- primarily because of an immediate need for DFX+, but also for the future tools, which I will definitely need.

It's okay to be mad, but in the end you have to make a cold business decision. LW is the best package at its price. Period.

Take a close look at the DF demo, you may find like I did that it's worth the price of the upgrade in itself.

batzilla
12-08-2003, 06:40 PM
Thanks Tyvole for suggesting the df demo.I didnt even know I could get one.

And yes LW is the best deal going but i'm still kinda worried about the future.If i'm going to go hard core into learning animation it just seems that maybe I should go another route. If I learn LW's way of animating and someday have an awesome reel,if me and another person are in competetion over a job and the other persons awesome reel is done in Maya who do you think is gonna get the job?

I dunno...lots of decisions to make.

object
12-08-2003, 06:46 PM
I too bought Lightwave for $2500, then continued to upgrade. While not days before the price drop, I believe my timing could have been better. I would not continue to upgrade if I felt every new version has not had usefull new features. I am happy to help employee programmers at Newtek.

hrgiger
12-08-2003, 08:38 PM
I bought my Lightwave when it was $2500 but I got it off Ebay from David Warner (letters page of keyframe magazine guy) for $1500.
There's always going to be another sale that you wished you could have taken advantage of. You'd be much happier if you can learn to accept that fact...

meshmaster
12-08-2003, 09:02 PM
It was a long time ago around X mas time and Newtek was having a special where you watch a video toaster demo and you get lw for one grand... I told customer service that the closest place to see a demo is several hour drive away (it is... that's one of the things that sucks about living in the middle of a small town in the middle of nowhere) so they sent me a vhs tape of the demo and gave me the price drop anyways...

Prices always drop in time...

I really, in some ways, wish that Newtek would do like Caligari does and offer older versions of the software for cheaper... I think it would bring more hobbiest in if there was another option like that - to grab 6 for x amount of dollars cheaper or something... and eventually do like Caligari did and let super old versions fly out in to the freebie zone (ts 3 is now free)...

takkun
12-08-2003, 11:01 PM
I can feel your pain. I bought 7.5 three days before the free upgrade to 8. Like you, I was upset (especially when Newtek never replied to my letter) -- but I still got the upgrade -- primarily because of an immediate need for DFX+, but also for the future tools, which I will definitely need. TyVole, I hope that you returned that 3 day old copy of 7.5 and then got the better deal.


I really, in some ways, wish that Newtek would do like Caligari does and offer older versions of the software for cheaper... I think it would bring more hobbiest in if there was another option like that - to grab 6 for x amount of dollars cheaper or something... and eventually do like Caligari did and let super old versions fly out in to the freebie zone (ts 3 is now free)... I really dislike the notion of selling old software as Caligari does. That's like Microsoft selling copies of Windows 95 for $50, Windows 98 for $80, and Windows ME for $90. Not very appealing, especially when hobbyists can find cheaper, newer, and better alternatives for the same price as say Truespace 5.

Beamtracer
12-09-2003, 01:09 AM
I suggest that those feeling pain over the price of Lightwave should not buy any technology products as they may have a mental breakdown over those prices.

Don't by a new computer or you'll get really depressed when you see the price depreciate by 50% over the next 6 months.

Don't buy a digital camera, as those models are 30% what they were a year ago.

I assume you don't own a new car either. We all know what happens to those when you drive them off the showroom floor.

Hervé
12-09-2003, 01:22 AM
right Beam, that's the way it is, period....

When I first bought LW5,6, it did cost me about $ 3,000 from NT europe.... now add about $2,000 plugins and you are left with A super LW for $5,000... more expensive than Base XSI today.... and not counting the LW upgrades and dongle swaps....

Money comes and go.... he he

batzilla
12-09-2003, 01:32 AM
thats the truth beam...

I actually feel better after thinking about it. Now to save up for 8 : )

I hope its worth it.


BTW,about 2 years ago I bought World Construction Set from DVDirect for $300 ! They had it as a close out product and I got the last one they had. WCS at the time cost about $1300 so I got a great deal.The software was barley used( I just used it for one job) then I sold it for $800 : )

Karma anyone : )

Elmar Moelzer
12-09-2003, 01:56 AM
Well, you know what it is like:
You go into a shop today and buy a new CPU/Graphics- card/RAM, whatsoever and two days later you will get it for 30% less.
Thats the computer- business, I am affraid.
Batzilla: LWs userbase is not that small.
I havent seen any recent statistics, but in 2000 LWs userbase was much larger than MAYAs and just below MAXs (one has to be carefull with the way Discreet countrs their seats though)
MAX seems to be loosing a great deal of users to MAYA now, BTW.
CU
Elmar

Hervé
12-09-2003, 02:13 AM
some people are saying Maya is dead... is it true ?

takkun
12-09-2003, 02:30 AM
Well, ancient Mayans are all dead... I think.

SteveM
12-09-2003, 03:19 AM
only people in this forum - heh heh

colkai
12-09-2003, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by meshmaster
I really, in some ways, wish that Newtek would do like Caligari does and offer older versions of the software for cheaper... I think it would bring more hobbiest in if there was another option like that - to grab 6 for x amount of dollars cheaper or something... and eventually do like Caligari did and let super old versions fly out in to the freebie zone (ts 3 is now free)...

I think this would be an excellent move on Newteks part, heh, imagine playing with 4.0 again, any old PC folks, really doesn't matter ;)

Seriously though, I do think making the likes of 5.6C available at a 'level-entry' price would bring more people on board.
Once you are on board, it is too tempting and easy to follow the upgrade path..I speak from experience :D

cresshead
12-09-2003, 04:24 AM
yeah say £200 for lightwave 5.6 or lw 6.0b would get the artist who may go for animation master/truspace/carrara/amapi or used to go for inspire3d.

cresshead
12-09-2003, 04:26 AM
lightwave is a real steel whan you lookm around at what's on offer at it's pricepoint [£700]....plasma,cinema4dbase and a module, truspace....

mattclary
12-09-2003, 05:31 AM
I feel for you, now get over it.

The secret to avoid these raw cutoffs is to upgrade early. I held onto 6.5 for a long time and put off my upgrade, planning to skip every other one. That's just retarded, I can afford $500 every year and a half to two years. I get the impression that this was a new purchase for you and not an upgrade, so that doesn't apply to you, but keep it in mind for the future.

We could all sit here and try to convince you what a great value LightWave is, and that you shouldn't switch to Max or Maya, but to be honest, I don't care if you do or not, it's your dime.

colkai
12-09-2003, 06:09 AM
Originally posted by mattclary
I can afford $500 every year and a half to two years. I get the impression that this was a new purchase for you and not an upgrade, so that doesn't apply to you, but keep it in mind for the future.


$500 is a lot of money, especially for something which may only be a hobby. However, Like Matt I try to justify the upgrades by looking at what else I buy.
I pay about £35 a month on magazines, which I read, then extract a few pages a throw the rest away.
So that is £420 a year which is spent on "consumables".
LW stays mine permanently and I enjoy using it, so penny for penny it is far better value.

Think of it this way, most people who smoke probably spend considerably more than that each year on cigarettes, given the cost of a packet of 20 in the UK (around £5) - you do 20 a day .. £35 /wk == 1800+ a year. Not only is LW cheaper - it won't kill ya...or at least I don't *think* it can ;) Even if you only do 5 a day - still cheaper!
Same for booze..justify it that way and you'll soon have your credit card out :D

meshmaster
12-09-2003, 01:49 PM
I pay about £35 a month on magazines, which I read, then extract a few pages a throw the rest away. I used to spend about the same - less now that I have cable internet... but I only buy magazines that have software that's worth installing on the cd cover... for instance Cinema 4d 6 SE was on a mag I saw yesterday... I have built up quite a collection of software by doing that sort of thing... http://forum.caligari.com/discus/messages/74/11136.html?1059108915

Usually it's older software released for free on the Magazines (Future Publishing - the guys that put out Computer Arts, etc. seem to have a knack/niche for this sort of thing) as soon as the newer software comes out.. It would be neat to see LW 4 on something like that or Inspire someday... or as mentioned earlier, released for free on the site. :) .. maybe with a link from Cnet to the main page so that upgrade people will start swarming in by the masses...

Talking about old software... does Vidget work on Linux?

mattclary
12-09-2003, 02:23 PM
My thoughts exactly, Colkai! I had a buddy who gave me a hard time about shelling out the money I did for LightWave, then I ever so politely asked him how much he spent racing his motorcycles. ;)

dpartridge
12-09-2003, 04:46 PM
this is bugging me.

i am about to purchase a upgrade of lw from 7.5 to 8. i live in new zealand. if i could purchase 8 from newtek it would cost me $785 NZD excluding tax. if i purchase a upgrade from australia, it will cost me $1115 NZD excluding gst. i feel extremely ripped off here, because i am paying almost half again to purchase this upgrade from australia with no advantage.

Hervé
12-09-2003, 11:19 PM
"Mondialisation"

dunno how to say in English.... hummm better ask José Bové he he

badllarma
12-09-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by dpartridge
this is bugging me.

i am about to purchase a upgrade of lw from 7.5 to 8. i live in new zealand. if i could purchase 8 from newtek it would cost me $785 NZD excluding tax. if i purchase a upgrade from australia, it will cost me $1115 NZD excluding gst. i feel extremely ripped off here, because i am paying almost half again to purchase this upgrade from australia with no advantage.


Yup we had this argument a while back between the US $ and the UK £ I though why not just be able to pay by credit card on Newteks site and download it job done (oh and have the dongle posted). Save the dealer mark up cut out the middle man and ship direct.
Can never see why not myself? You can buy loads of other products and software that way?

pauland
12-10-2003, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by badllarma
Yup we had this argument a while back between the US $ and the UK £ I though why not just be able to pay by credit card on Newteks site and download it job done (oh and have the dongle posted). Save the dealer mark up cut out the middle man and ship direct.
Can never see why not myself? You can buy loads of other products and software that way?

The few dealers that exist in the UK, do actually advertise the product in magazines, they're an easy phone call away and I guess in times of trouble you could get in the car and go to their premises to get a new dongle.

In most countries, not having local dealers is a major turn-off for buyers wanting multiple seats. They expect some form of local backup. Language is also a big issue. I know that some time back Newtek-europe ran into trouble with German LWers because of local support.

Do you think Newtek want's to train it's staff to understand Kiwis and Ozzies?..
;-)


Paul

badllarma
12-10-2003, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by pauland
The few dealers that exist in the UK, do actually advertise the product in magazines, they're an easy phone call away and I guess in times of trouble you could get in the car and go to their premises to get a new dongle.

Can see the point, always wondered who pays for the ads Newtek of the dealers?

In most countries, not having local dealers is a major turn-off for buyers wanting multiple seats.

I can see the big operators wanting some local contact I suppose? As a one man band there is the forums and Newtek themselves of course. Which I find more than enough.

Do you think Newtek want's to train it's staff to understand Kiwis and Ozzies?..

I rather deal with the ones on the other side of the planet that the ones across the channel :D