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Markc
11-09-2015, 11:57 AM
I'm sooooo tempted to get an iPad Pro and Pencil on Wednesday.......but it's so damn expensive.
From what I have read, in the UK iPad 679 (32gb) Pencil 79.
It depends what graphics apps are available I think.
It would be great for sketching/storyboards etc.

EDIT:
Just looked at Wacom Cintiq 13HD, 582, now I really don't know :stumped:

Signal to Noise
11-09-2015, 12:42 PM
Save extra $$$/ and go with a Surface Pro, imo.

raw-m
11-09-2015, 01:07 PM
I'd only go for it if after finding out how well Astropad works with it. I love my iPad, but for me, there isn't enough "Pro" apps for anything meaningful but if I can use it as an extension of my Mac (using Astropad) and the usual way while mobile then it could be a winner.

wesleycorgi
11-09-2015, 01:16 PM
Save extra $$$/ and go with a Surface Pro, imo.

I agree. I have an iPad (a few actually). Since getting the Surface 3 (regular, but wish I had gotten the Pro now), I never use my iPads except to test the iOS apps that I am developing. The kids now use the iPads for games and movies.

Whereas, I can crack open LW, Fusion, Photoshop, etc., on my Surface.

raw-m
11-09-2015, 01:19 PM
I agree. I have an iPad (a few actually). Since getting the Surface 3 (regular, but wish I had gotten the Pro now), I never use my iPads except to test the iOS apps that I am developing. The kids now use the iPads for games and movies.

Whereas, I can crack open LW, Fusion, Photoshop, etc., on my Surface.

That's the end that argument, then! You've nearly sold me one....

wesleycorgi
11-09-2015, 01:40 PM
MS has done a good job. If I had to buy a new laptop, I would seriously have to look at the Surface Book. Whereas for the past twelve years, I've gotten a new MacBook Pro every 3 years or so.

I guess I'm tired of the "Apple tax," and also it irks me that they don't provide an NVIDIA option (I think) on all their computers now.

gerry_g
11-09-2015, 01:43 PM
If you want pro apps the Surface is clearly the better bet even if you're on the Mac as most licences are dual OS these days, my primary gripe with both is size, was very disappointed to see the iPad Pro like the Surface was no bigger than a 12" laptop, yeah I know the surface is wider but was really hoping for a 15" equivalent in terms of screen size, I can not see my self ever devoting any kind of meaningful time to such a small device when I can sit down at a computer and do the same on a 30" monitor. So for me the argument for a tablet is the same as it has always been, I get a device that is more practical for writing painting sketching and plugging in a guitar or keyboard that I can do loafing on a bed or sofa and gets me out of my computer chair and gives my *** some much needed rest.

raw-m
11-09-2015, 01:51 PM
This is interesting: http://www.cultofmac.com/396559/adobe-creatives-gush-over-ipad-pro-in-new-demo-video/

I'm a big fan of Affinity Designer and looks like that is also iPad Pro bound. For want of a better word, I'm in a different "headspace" when using my iPad and normally sat in front of the TV or out having a coffee, quite happy to sit down and doodle rather than work so understand what you're saying, gerry_g.

Ztreem
11-09-2015, 03:33 PM
A cintiq is nice, but renember you need a computer attached to it as well. Ipad pro looks like fun, but it becomes a expensive toy when you are limited to ios. There are very few productive pro apps for ios. With a surface pro/ book you have a full blown computer with windows and can even use LightWave on it. It all depends on what you want. I would go for a surface. (I also sit all day in front of a cintiq 21" at work, so I do not need one of those)

MSherak
11-09-2015, 04:22 PM
Surface Pro 3 has almost replaced my desktop completely.. Only reason I need the desktop(s) is to speed up rendering for animation. Now that I have setup Backburner on all my machines at home. I now can use them with any program that can runs from a CMD prompt. (LW, AE, Maya) It's awesome. I have the SP3 dock also so I can hook right back up to monitors or just take it on the go. There is so much more you can do with a full blown OS tablet/laptop than a phoneOS.

Plus the SP3 pen was great but now even better since I got the new pen, 1024 pressure is wonderful (original had 256) which is the same as a wacom. Paints great in PS, Clip Studio (Manga), 3DCoat, etc.

I tell ya, Microsoft just kicked Apple in the balls with the surface line of tablets they have. Along with a few other companies (wacom). I don't see Apple innovating anymore since Jobs passed. I mean think about it, they made a 12 size ipad with a keyboard and pen option. mmm that sounds a little behind.. Now if they had killed their air lineup and replaced the guts in the new ipad and ran OSX then they would have something. But since now it's all about Tim Cook making shareholders cash they will milk everything until it does not sell anymore.. With that I think Microsoft got the word from Gates, we are going after them to put them down, finally.

-m

LW_Will
11-09-2015, 07:58 PM
Okay, my thoughts on iPad Pro (iPP?)

Resolution; 2732-by-2048 resolution at 264 pixels per inch, so UHD. The Surface3,4 are 1080X1920, the Surface Book is 3000x2000, but it is also $1500.

Software: as raw-m points out, the Astropad gives the iPP capabilities to run as a bitpad for a Mac computer.
So access to everything with OSX capabilities. There is also a program that will do the same thing for PCs. So... not really an issue.
Using Autocad Sketchbook on the system should be amazing. ;-)
AND there is a 3d cad program called uDraw that allows you to build objects by drawing them in space. Output to OBJ to LW.

Now, you can buy a Cintiq, or a Cintiq Tablet, but those cost tones of cash. It least a grand, and it isn't portable. The tablets, that are computer tablets, will tie into systems so they will do the bit pad thing are $1500 for a frickin ANDROID version. The Windows version is over $2k.

I'm very buzzed for this system and I plan on getting one. But, I am still going to check it out.

I tried the Surface Book at Best Buy. Very nice, very smooth, but no artistic touches. No pressure for coloring... the angle, along with the pressure, was not present.

vonpietro
11-09-2015, 08:40 PM
is the pen really all that?

i saw it doing angle stuff - but a friend says you can do that with a button an a wacom, so is really that much more convenient to use?
anyone try one yet - its supposed to be out today i heard.

LW_Will
11-09-2015, 11:04 PM
is the pen really all that?

i saw it doing angle stuff - but a friend says you can do that with a button an a wacom, so is really that much more convenient to use?
anyone try one yet - its supposed to be out today i heard.

I'll tell you Friday. ;-) <for order this Wednesday, on sale in Apple Stores on Friday>

Um, I've had a Wacom and I haven't EVER seen that. Also, with the Wacom you can't see the screen. You need the Cintiq.

Greenlaw
11-10-2015, 10:16 AM
I have a Wacom Cintiq Companion 2 Enhanced. It's pricey and a bit large as tablets go but it's quite powerful and I use it as my primary computer most of the time these days. I had to reduce the device's screen res from 2560 x 1440 to 1920 x 1080 though--the native res is just too high to be usable with most programs. I also had to disable Windows UI scaling because it messes up the GUI for too many programs I use. Once that was taken care of, the Cintiq Companion 2 runs everything I use perfectly (LightWave, Fusion, After Effects, Photoshop, Anime Studio Pro, Harmony, Vegas Pro, 3D Coat, ZBrush...you name it.)

Just like a regular Cintiq, it has Express Keys on the bezel that I use all the time, and I can even plug the tablet into my desktop and use it as a second monitor/tablet for that computer. The screen calibrates much more accurately than my old desk-bound Cintiq 12WX.

I also have an older model iPad Retina, which I love to use with Procreate (http://procreate.si/) and a Wacom Intuos Create Stylus 2. I have both the original WICS and the newer WICS 2. The original is nice because it has a squishy tip that feels very brush like. The newer model was a disaster when it first came out but after a couple of firmware updates, it works great now. Unlike the original WICS, the WICS 2 has a fine hard tip, so it's a little nicer for small details. But, TBH, I still like the older squishy tipped Stylus for painting.

Between the two, the Cintiq Companion 2 is obviously the more useful device because its a fully capable Windows 8 - 10 computer. But its quite big for a tablet (15" overall and 13.5" screen) so it's less portable than the iPad. I also think the iPad is easier to work with outdoors--the frosted Cintiq screen is nice for reducing glare indoors but outside it can spread bright reflections across the screen making it difficult to see. I use it outdoors only if I can find a shady spot with a dark cover overhead. I use the iPad for concept sketches and playing around because it's really convenient. For real work, however, I always turn to the Cintiq Companion.

I had considered getting a Surface Pro before the 2nd generation Companions had arrived, and I still occasionally look at the newer models to compare specs and price. The highest end Surface Pro is nice but once you add up its final cost, it's nearly the same price as the Companion 2 Enhanced but minus key features like actual Wacom Cintiq/Intuos pen technology, the ability to use it like a Cintiq with a desktop computer, and Express keys. If you don't need quite so much power though, the less expensive models of the Surface Pro seem like a good value.

As for the new iPad Pro, it seems very nice but it's still just an iOS device.

G.

Markc
11-10-2015, 12:07 PM
I just watched a new review video, there still seems to be a bit of lag with the pencil, when artists where drawing, unlike a pen and paper.
Having never used a Cintiq type device, I don't know whether this is normal.

Greenlaw
11-10-2015, 12:36 PM
My iPad Retina is pretty old and I can say there can be a slight lag depending on the app I'm working in. The original Wacom Intuos Creative Stylus was fine, but the second generation had a terrible lag when first introduced. IMO, it's gotten much better now and is very usable. However, I know some users with iPad Air had issues with this stylus--I'm not sure if the issues have been resolved for that model.

I don't know how this compares to the the new iPad Pro and the native Pencil stylus because it's using different technology. The iPad Pro tablet is more powerful so there shouldn't be any reason it should lag, or at least it should lag a lot less than my old iPad Retina does.

As for Cintiq for desktop use, I have a large size Cintiq at my workplace and there is always a slight lag when making large strokes but it's pretty accurate with smaller strokes and working with detail. I don't personally find the lag distracting in most programs I paint and draw in. Most of the time anyway.

For the mobile Cintiq Companion 2, I see a much smaller lag and it's not distracting at all. I thought this was surprising because both devices are set to the same resolution but the desktop is technically more powerful. But maybe the Companion is more responsive because its computer is self-contained and has newer tech than my large office Cintiq? Just a guess.

Slightly OT but you can currently use the iPad as an extended interface for Corel Painter on the desktop. The app is called Cinco (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5wiEFNHMuI). (I've actually had Cinco installed on my iPad for years but I keep forgetting to use it. D'oh!)

G.

gerry_g
11-10-2015, 01:29 PM
complexity of stroke type impacts performance, I can choose brushes in Painter or Photoshop that lag way behind the pens stroke gesture on a desktop machine so it stands to reason a tablet will fare worse, I'm not on a Cintiq just a regular Wacom but I believe these are faster than a Cintiq for responsiveness. Don't know if we are taking about the same demo but in one I saw a lot of stroke processing was going on, making it fill and smooth out as it was stroked, it was also responding to pressure for stroke thickness so it would be bound to be taking a preference hit

Markc
11-14-2015, 09:07 AM
Ok I've had a reality check, and realise I don't need an iPad Pro (or a Cintiq either, that was an alternative to the iPad to convince myself how expensive it was).
I just can't resist a new gadget.
But in retrospect, I just don't feel as comfortable sketching/doodling with a stylus, rather than a pen.
I might get one of those digital pen, thingy's which transfer what you write.

On a different note, I have started to use my tablet stylus with applications instead of my mouse.
I can't get to grips with the mapped setting, can only use as a mouse.

Do other users use a stylus rather than a mouse?

Greenlaw
11-14-2015, 11:27 AM
I really want to use only the stylus when working on computers but I'm finding it's not always practical. The reason I want to switch is because it puts a lot less strain on my hand, wrist and elbow than using a mouse does. Using a mouse for tasks that require tiny, precise motions--like modeling and rotoscoping--really kills my arm. After I switched to using a stylus as my primary control device, much of the pain has gone aways.

Unfortunately, LightWave has some issues with using a stylus, in both Layout and Modeler. (And, yes, this is after switching to Tablet mode in preferences.) It's frustrating because when it's working, it actually works quite well, but every now and then the stylus will start getting spazzy and I have to switch back to using the mouse to get my work done. I finally gave up using the stylus in LightWave and just got a better mouse*.

Now that I'm thinking about it though, I think I'll give it another shot and start documenting when I'm having stylus issues so I have something to report. Hopefully, LW3DG can get this working better in a future release.

G.

*I got the Logitech MX Master (http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/mx-master?crid=7) and I really like it. At first I was hesitant to spend this much on a mouse but having used it for a week now, I don't regret it--this is the most comfortable mouse I've ever used. The cramping I was getting in my hand and fingers from using my previous Bluetooth mouse has completely gone away. The MX Master comes with some nice features like Bluetooth paring with up to three devices (there's a switch for each on the bottom) and optional USB connectivity for non-Bluetooth devices, so I can easily switch between different portable devices and my workstation. It has a few hidden buttons and a second scroll wheel for the thumb, all cleverly and ergonomically placed. If you're looking for a comfortable and versatile mouse, I highly recommend this one.

tyrot
11-14-2015, 11:27 AM
i have surface pro 3 .. it is a life changer ...

gerry_g
11-14-2015, 11:46 AM
been selecting and editing channels in the Graph editor all afternoon with a pen, yes would be really really nice if it all functioned the way it does with a mouse but it won't stop me doing it, I find with large scenes half the problem seems to be to do with the retched single threadedness of the process which means unless you go deliberately slow the pen doesn't exit its last action properly and then crazy stuff happens

magiclight
11-15-2015, 08:26 AM
Should be no lag most of the time, if you use complex/big brushes in photoshop for example you can get some bad lag, but that depends on the software you use, for all normal use there should pretty much no lag at all.

I use a Wacom Intuos pro, can't use a Cintiq, I can't see what I am doing, my hand gets in the way all the time, with a tablet my hand is not on the screen so much easier, but I am lefthanded so maybe just me ;)

safetyman
11-16-2015, 05:36 AM
Using Photoshop for painting/sketching is one thing... what about Zbrush sculpting with one of these devices? Which one is better for that?

Greenlaw
11-16-2015, 09:19 AM
The Wacom Cintiq Companion 2 Enhanced works great with ZBrush.

It has a Core i7 processor (quad), 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, and a 2560 x 1440 res screen. On top of that, you can can use it as a regular Cintiq for a desktop. And just like the desktop Cintiq, the WCC2E has Expresskeys on the bezel so there's less fumbling with a keyboard while drawing/sculpting. The stylus is like a regular Intuos stylus featuring 2048 levels of pressure, tilt recoginition, etc.

I bought this tablet last spring when it first came out as a mobile workstation substitute, and it's turning out to be capable of many things I would normally do on my workstation. It's not a full replacement but, TBH, I'm hardly ever on my workstation these days.

One of the things I had to change on the devices was the screen resolution. I dropped it down to 1920 x 1080 because the native resolution is just too high for practical use. I also turned off Windows UI scaling because it messes up for too many applications. After upgrading to Windows 10, I also had to upgrade the graphics driver and wireless to get good performance again. After that was done, this tablet has been a perfect for me.

I do wish it had better graphics options, (specifically Nvidia for CUDA compatibility,) but the Iris 6100 has been surprisingly capable. For the most part, the graphics support hasn't been an issue for me like it was with past laptops and tablet PC's I've owned.

It's an expensive tablet but it's really not much more expensive than a fully loaded Surface Pro 4. And it has more features intended for artists and designers.

Overall, I've been very pleased with this computer and don't regret purchasing it. (P.S., I'm busy redesigning my website now but once that's done, I'll post full review of the tablet, strengths and weaknesses.)

G.

LW_Will
11-17-2015, 03:59 PM
watching on MacBreak Weekly (http://twit.tv/mbw) and everyone was talking about (read; raving about) their iPadPros... and lamenting that fact that the Pencil is not available yet! (damn)

Mentioned uMake (upgrades $150/yr... another subscription. sigh!), and two useful programs, duet and Astropad. Both allow computers to be used as "Wacom-like" tablets for Mac and, in the case of duet, PC's! They were talking about this iPP being the actual sucessor to Knowledge Navigator, an OLD demo for the "computer of the future". I highly recommend the show if you are still undecided.

Marander
11-17-2015, 04:42 PM
i have surface pro 3 .. it is a life changer ...

Hey (tyrot / Greenlaw?), I have a question. And sorry to be off-topic, I'll definitely not get an iPad.

I'm considering getting some light device to use with LW, Substance, 3D Coat while traveling.

Initially I wanted to get the Surface Pro 4 but one thing that I'm concerned is: I read the Surface Pro can not be used properly when resting on the laps with its keyboard, and without keyboard I cannot imagine to work in these applications without shortcuts (or CTRL, SHIFT, ALT etc.). I don't do much drawing but have the Samsung Note with Wacom tech, but to be honest I don't sketch so much (also the Android sketching applications are not so great). The Wacom Intuos on the desktop is also not used as much, I never could adjust to use it with LW generally, it doesn't work well for me to model or UI interaction for example. And to have the tablet option enabled is annoying when using the mouse.

The SurfaceBook (with dedicated GPU and 16 GB) would be perfect but it will still take about 6 months to be available in Europe if at all.

Therefore I think a 13" Ultrabook would maybe be the best choice. And I'm a 3D hobbyist and still learning a lot, so no professional requirements. But your pro experience using these devices seem positive...

tyrot, how is the Surface Pro a life changer for you? How do you use the Surface or the Cintiq, only for texturing and sculpting or also for modeling etc.?

Cheers

Danner
11-18-2015, 03:37 AM
I want to chime in with my experiences.
I have used a Wacom tablet for 10 years I have owned a few iPads and I also have a Surface Pro.

It took me about 3 years of on and off attempts to really get comfortable with the Wacom to the point of being able to use it accurately and not missing the mouse, my method was just use it when it is most needed (painting, texture retouching, selecting particular points in modeler etc.) and it grew on me from there. I still use the mouse sometimes, just to switch it up a bit, but get tired of it after a while.

Drawing on the iPad is pleasant, doing sketches in ProCreate is a joy, it is a very capable painting app, but in general I did miss the ability to run regular desktop apps and got rid of the iPad when I tried the Surface Pro.

It is a great laptop and a great tablet too. @Marander, there are free apps to add CTRL, SHIFT, ALT (or what ever you want) to the screen interface for painting on your lap without a keyboard. You can also use the Surface as a wireless Wacom for your desktop pc with an app, but I found the response time a little laggy, being used to the wacom.
I did some extensive work on the Surface on a trip I had and it was very capable for the tasks at hand, there were two things I missed from my desktop:
1. The size of the monitor. Besides the resolution and screen space, it helps you relax your eyes and posture.
2. The pen and my hand got in the way of the drawing. I'm so used to seeing a clean screen with the wacom that when my hand and a pen were drawing I often wished my hand and pen were transparent.

I've also run out of internal storage. The Surface model I own doesn't have much (I forgot how much it has.. just know it's not enough)

Marander
11-18-2015, 05:55 AM
Thanks Danner for sharing your experience!

Markc
02-23-2016, 12:15 PM
Well I got an iPad Pro and Pencil, and am not disappointed.
My old iPad was getting long in the tooth, so I needed to upgrade, so thought what the hell pay the extra.....
Having used cheap styli on my old iPad (which was pants), the Pencil is FANTASTIC, there is next to no lag whatsoever.

Time for loads of sketching now :D:boogiedow