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View Full Version : Lightwave 8, a glitched remark



sanderdes
12-08-2003, 12:00 PM
I partly understand the secrecy of Newtek on their new product....don't give away everything just yet, if only for the sake of protection against their 'adversaries'.
But how can Newtek expect us to pre-order a product, of which we actually don't know anything at all. The website doesn't provide us (me at least :) ) with enough information, and if you search the forums all day, you might catch a glimp of what could be a new feature in Lightwave 8.
Why can't they just be more open about it.......cause right now I don't know if it's worth to upgrade to [8] or not....

Anyway, I look forward to Lightwave 8, and hope it 'll be worth the upgrade.

Sander

hrgiger
12-08-2003, 12:35 PM
We actually know a lot about Lightwave 8, at least since this summer at Siggraph. We don't know everything yet, but I've seen enough to decide it's worth upgrading. Improved softbodies, rigid bodies, dope sheet, ortho tools, etc.... But it won't cost you anymore to upgrade to Lightwave 8 if you want to wait until it comes out but then you might not get the DFX deal.

UnCommonGrafx
12-08-2003, 12:37 PM
2 posts...

Learn to love the archives. They are indisputably a necessity. And good readin', too.:cool:

Goading NewTek, riling the troops won't do any good.
When it's released, it's released. :rolleyes:

It's gonna cost you the same, now as when it's released so there really is no difference.

cresshead
12-08-2003, 12:50 PM
the only way lw 8 will dissapoint people is if newtek remove some of the features they have already demo'd so far...

sanderdes
12-08-2003, 01:04 PM
Indeed, only done 2 posts, but I'm more into reading posts, than replying :)

But why can't Newtek just simply give away all their features on their website, instead of leaking bits and bits of information on their forum ?
Ofcourse you can find quite some information, but as a customer, you shouldn't have to go through all these forums now do you ?!

mattclary
12-08-2003, 01:33 PM
Because Newtek doesn't deal in vaporware. If you don't like it, don't pre-order. It's just that simple.

sanderdes
12-08-2003, 01:46 PM
:confused:









...I think that doesn't need any more comment

omeone
12-08-2003, 02:02 PM
I generally always avoid these topics but geez, LW lover or hater as mattclary says... you are the consumer, it's your choice.

and btw, Newtek do not "expect" any preorder from you, that is your misconception.

UnCommonGrafx
12-08-2003, 02:29 PM
As you can see, those of us {presumably} who have pre-ordered are tired of the question: are we there yet?
It's not that people are hostitle to you -- it's the question. And our long wait. For 8.

Hopefully this thread will die soon. And all others like it.

sanderdes
12-08-2003, 03:06 PM
and btw, Newtek do not "expect" any preorder from you, that is your misconception

If they don't expect people to pre-order their product, then why would they have an offer like they have now ?

I just think it's a little bit weird to buy a car, without knowing any of the specs, like maximum speed, efficiency, etc.
I can understand their reasons, but I think Newtek going up so much in their own strategy, that they forget their own customers
:)

I just thought it was a little bit odd, maybe that's just me...

takkun
12-08-2003, 03:13 PM
Hey, It's the daily Lightwave 8 thread!


cause right now I don't know if it's worth to upgrade to [8] or not.... Well, the gist of the features have been announced. Huge character animation and dynamics improvements. But hey, like omeone said, no one "expects" you to preorder. So, just wait and see.:)

mattclary
12-08-2003, 03:14 PM
zzzzzz... zzzzzz... zzzzzzz...

Original1
12-08-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by sanderdes

But how can Newtek expect us to pre-order a product, of which we actually don't know anything at all. The website doesn't provide us (me at least :) ) with enough information, and if you search the forums all day, you might catch a glimp of what could be a new feature in Lightwave 8.
Why can't they just be more open about it.......cause right now I don't know if it's worth to upgrade to [8] or not....

Anyway, I look forward to Lightwave 8, and hope it 'll be worth the upgrade.

Sander

I know enough from Siggraph to know that the improvement in Character tools and the Soft body Dynamics is worth the upgrade, but thats not why I preordered. The deal for DFx+ was well worth the money, gave me a great tool for compositing, and a new skill set to learn which I was waiting for LW8. So I was more than happy to part with my money.

Over the years Newtek have given us a number of free point releases for both Toaster and Lightwave, so as an end user I feel I have always had value for money. It took discreet 2 full releases to include HDRI images into 3D studio MAX.

Don't get me wrong this isn't a post to start a flame war, there are areas where Max is stronger for some stuff I do, namely shockwave 3D for Director, but for most of my animation I prefer Lightwave. I work with artists who still use Softimage and hate XSI so its each to their own.

Good work is good work in any package, if my up front money for the upgrade makes Lightwave a better product thats great:cool:

sanderdes
12-08-2003, 03:36 PM
Don't get me wrong this isn't a post to start a flame war

I don't intent to start a flame war here...
once again, I just thought it was a little bit strange Newtek doesn't give as much information as I would like....don't try to offense anyone with that. I was just curious if anyone else thought that ....

Poor thing people have to react this annoyed though

RomainR
12-08-2003, 03:48 PM
Why pre-order when you don't know what your getting?

1-Their DFX+ deal is hard to pass-up. For the price of an upgrade you get free software. Even if you don't like what's in LW8 when you get it, you still got a kick(_!_) software for free.

2-NewTek's previous upgrades to LightWave have always been great. The features that get added have always been useful and fun to use.

For me just number 1 is well worth upgrading if anything.
Although LW8 seems very promising from what has been leaked out.

3D|Dave
12-08-2003, 04:25 PM
I think Newtek has given out a lot more than what the competition usually dishes out (which is nothing typically). Not to mention those great .5 releases.

Can't wait for 8 or 8.5.

retinajoy
12-08-2003, 04:42 PM
I bought the LW8 upgrade based on the sigraph streams showing the new character tools, softbodies and hardbodies which looked lovely. Gone get started proper on Larrys course that I got once my work project is finished. Looking foward to rigging and animating chars in LW8 too. As already said in a previous posts the DFX+ is well worth the upgrade too (unless you have no interest whatsoever in compositing), even if LW8 was rubbish which I am sure it won't be.

cresshead
12-08-2003, 04:56 PM
i'm really hoping they improve and extend the "lens cap" filter that they added in lightwave 7.5....i use that on a daily basis so i'd think it MUSt be high on newtek's list of things to extend and tweek up for lightwave 8.

cgolchert
12-08-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by mattclary
zzzzzz... zzzzzz... zzzzzzz...

So you have figured out how to use complicated 3d software but you can't figure out how to not read a thread you don't want to?

blantyre
12-08-2003, 05:52 PM
-- You look at Halle Berry or the cover of FHM you think to your self, hmm let me have a look just in case I finder her sexy enough to buy the Magazine.

-- You are an FHM subcriber, no matter what'sin the magazine you'll get it having already paid for it, It also comes with a cool 100 hottest FHM babes FREE!!!:)

-- You see Halle Berry on the cover of FHM and buy it without looking at whats inside

-- You see Halle Berry on the cover and think "hmm, she most be promoting some big movie coming out. Hopes its good" then leaves probably to forget about it in 3 minutes maybe less.

HENCE THE MASTERY OF MARKETING. You've been bought. I don't believe Newtek have money back Guarantee's. If Newtek for some reason cut and Run tomorrow, all of you that paid already would be left with nothing. Luckily Newtek are a good company with a caring and dedicated team.

There are e types of consumers
Many LW users here fall into the second category a fanatical few in thiird. Smart consumers, no matter the product fall into cat A and D. Statistical facts here. Know your product, if you can sample your product, if not read up as much as you possibly can.

Newtek have not provided any of the components needed to make a smart choice other than the Brand Loyalty of its far TOO fanatical users.

It worked. Don't fear, NT will deliver and then some!!!:)

All 'm saying is I personally think it was just plain dumb to spend the money on a product you haven't even tried. Studios would never do this, freelance professionals need a reason to upgrade...but what if they don't do character animation? then don't upgrade. TOO many LW users will upgrade for no other reason that LW8!!! OMG LW8!!! and thats what NT can get away with pissing off the few complaining users.

Just my 2 cents

mattclary
12-08-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by cgolchert
So you have figured out how to use complicated 3d software but you can't figure out how to not read a thread you don't want to?


Actually, that was me editing a not so polite post. It's not that I don't want to read it, just don't want to rise to the trolls. It's pretty obvious the guy just want's to get a rise out of people.

Psyhke
12-08-2003, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by blantyre
...All 'm saying is I personally think it was just plain dumb to spend the money on a product you haven't even tried. Studios would never do this, freelance professionals need a reason to upgrade...

I'm not going to agree or disagree with the "dumbness" factor, however it should be noted that it's wrong to say that 'studios never do this'. The 'maintenance plan' fees offered by other software companies are indeed purchased! And what is that if not purchasing the product sight unseen? You can't ignore that fact. In addition, this 'maintenance plan' or 'subscription' concept for software is used in other software industries as well, for example, the IT industry. Happens a lot.

Gui Lo
12-08-2003, 06:33 PM
I agree with Mattclary, it's a no brainer why NewTek can offer a pre-order oppurtunity and also why some people will opt for this option.

Surely some people and studios need those features and have aksed if not demanded them. They need them now or at least ASAP.

Proton knows that he can only release info when it is absolutely final. Imagine the roasting he would get if he had to make a change "sorry, here's the finished version". Ouch!, I don't even want to think about it.

Some users can see the functionality of a feature from a screenshot. There have been many times when Proton has confirmed to a user how a feature works after posting a single screenshot.

Personally I cannot afford the upgrade at the moment but I can see already it is a must have, so it is pegged for ASAP.

Gui Lo

blantyre
12-08-2003, 07:28 PM
I'm not going to agree or disagree with the "dumbness" factor, however it should be noted that it's wrong to say that 'studios never do this'. The 'maintenance plan' fees offered by other software companies are indeed purchased! And what is that if not purchasing the product sight unseen? You can't ignore that fact. In addition, this 'maintenance plan' or 'subscription' concept for software is used in other software industries as well, for example, the IT industry. Happens a lot.

OK, you're right, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but every lightwave user who does their research or reads up will know that NT does not offer maintainence plans. Its all about you doing your research.

Studios obviously do their research based on what the product offers and whether its worth the cost of maintainence. I'd argue that they went with that company precisely because they offer maintainence. Again studios that do that likely use appz other than LW if they have to sign up for maintainence plans. XSI offers legendary tech support and maintainence, the idea that the company will send an engineer to help you complete a project is astounding. Newtek does not and thats why I think its not smart to just buy it because.... This is about Lightwave not Houdini or Maya or XSI.

From what I can tell 8 looks awesome, but I'm skeptical about that rigit body system "Point Based"? don't know. It all looks great, too good to be true. There must be a catch to that speed and innovation. In doing my research I know that NT pre LW8 have done nothing but impliment tools 3rd party developers created. Just copying rather than creating. Again maybe I'ma skeptic but good or bad, it all looks worth the cost, but it all depends on the requirements of the job.

I'm just saying on ANY product thats a "You buy and thats it.." deal regardless of upgrades and so forth needs to be taken in stride. ever since 6 its been "look at this cool tool this guy developed. Lets createour own and call it 7.5a b c d e..."

Its a good thin NT offer Free increiment upgrades between major releases becuase if they charged for those buggy updates they'd have alot less customers. Again NT are a great company and I'm not flaming them, I PERSONALLY wouldn't spend money on a product I haven't tried or have recommended. Looks great but I'll waitbefore putting down the money. I don't need DFX I use Shake so its not about getting DFX free or anything like that.

Just my 2cents

cgolchert
12-08-2003, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by mattclary
Actually, that was me editing a not so polite post. It's not that I don't want to read it, just don't want to rise to the trolls. It's pretty obvious the guy just want's to get a rise out of people.

OK, that is cool then. There are quite a few people here that feel they need to point out their boredom with responses like that. :) rock on.

sanderdes
12-09-2003, 12:17 AM
It's pretty obvious the guy just want's to get a rise out of people.

I'm sorry, I just thougth it was a DISCUSSION forum !!!!!!!!

SplineGod
12-09-2003, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by sanderdes


I'm sorry, I just thougth it was a DISCUSSION forum !!!!!!!!
I think the problem with your question is this:
Nobody can answer it except for Newtek. Everyone else can only supply an opinion. Newtek has "leaked" quite a bit of information which everyone else seems pretty aware of. There are streams from Siggraph that can be viewed and these forums are easy to search and there are some rather large threads with quite a bit of information about LW8. My suggestion would be to direct questions about what and why Newtek has or doesnt have on their site. This definately is a discussion forum which means that if you want "discussion" you take the bad and the good from the thread you create. :)

Hervé
12-09-2003, 01:37 AM
Spline is 100 % right, call Nt and ask them....

BTW Romain, it's not hard to be french, it's a disease.... ha ha ha...

(I was French myself a long ago... now living in the richest country of the planet... he he...) mucho-better.....

cheers all.... and Viva NT and LW8 ....!

MrWyatt
12-09-2003, 01:52 AM
i remember when maya updated to 5 you heard nothing of it and itīs features until it got released and suddenly, boom: maya 5 all over the place. and me idiot had bought it too early (4.5) i mean so that i couldnīt upgrade for free, as only the ones could upgrade that bought maya after the anouncement. if i had known when it would be released i would have waited a couple of months. thatīs what i call a bummer. newtek is just so much friendlier to their customers. they anounced 8 months befor it getīs released and all people that bought LW 7.5 in that time ( i guess it began in july) will get the upgrade for free. thatīs more you could expect from alias or discreet. because they offer such deals only about 2 weeks before the new version starts shipping.

Thank you Newtek
:D

pauland
12-09-2003, 01:54 AM
Sanderdes, this is what you've had to say about LW8 so far...

I partly understand the secrecy of Newtek on their new product....

closely followed by

Why can't they just be more open about it.......



Newtek have not provided any of the components needed to make a smart choice

followed later by

Don't fear, NT will deliver and then some!!!

and..

I personally think it was just plain dumb to spend the money on a product you haven't even tried.

TOO many LW users will upgrade for no other reason that LW8

From what I can tell 8 looks awesome

Its all about you doing your research.

So you won't be buying until you get a demo at a dealer, even though it looks awesome and you seem to think that those that bought the pre-release upgrade haven't done any research?

I'm sorry, I just thougth it was a DISCUSSION forum !!!!!!!!

It is though, some posters aren't easy to understand.

Personally, I like many others, bought the pre-release LW8 deal. Even without LW8 it's a great offer, and on past release performance by Newtek combined with the online material, I have no doubt that the LW8 upgrade is worth it (I can understand why Mac owners might wait until the actual release though).

I don't feel that I or anyone else who have already bought into LW8 are as dumb as you say, in fact I would say the reverse is true.

Paul

SplineGod
12-09-2003, 01:57 AM
LOL, Thanks Paul,
Formatting his post that way REALLY cleared things up for me. ;)

MrWyatt
12-09-2003, 02:01 AM
Larry,
donīt you ever sleep? i mean here in Germany itīs 10 am so in LA it should be 3 am. how are the new tuts going btw?
:D

Matt
12-09-2003, 02:02 AM
this is why I'm going to see LW8 today! :)

MrWyatt
12-09-2003, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by Matt
this is why I'm going to see LW8 today! :)

lucky you. why are there no demos of 8 in my neighbourhood.
:mad:

Hervé
12-09-2003, 02:11 AM
Hey Matt, take a digicam with you.... you are now an official LW reporter.... he he.... ahhhh lucky you are...!

Matt
12-09-2003, 02:15 AM
If I can borrow a camera I'll take/post some shots.

I'm not sure if there will be any more shown than what we know now, but if there is you'll be the first to know about it!

:)

Hervé
12-09-2003, 02:20 AM
Yeahhhh.... try also to see about how fast and stable....also the renderer.... please... he he

Now when you go to a demo like that, can you manipulate a bit,or is it just a show on big screen , where you just watch and think... ?

SplineGod
12-09-2003, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by MrWyatt
Larry,
donīt you ever sleep? i mean here in Germany itīs 10 am so in LA it should be 3 am. how are the new tuts going btw?
:D

LOL, Ive been known to on ocassion. :)
New Tuts are in progress :D

mcewan7
12-09-2003, 06:13 AM
@ Matt, you live in Wales too right? I wanted to go to London, but couldn't find anyone to go along with! Too late now...

PS

See if you can get them to drop some hints on the release date!

blantyre
12-09-2003, 08:20 AM
ooohhh!!

Well maybe your right and I'm the dumb one for not pre-ordering it inspite of how great the demo's look, but like I've already stated, I'll wait and see. Our house will likely buy it for the Lighting guys anyway.

back up


past release performance by Newtek combined with the online material

How long have NT had this release performance. every since 6 2 years ago Seven was the only stable and substantial general release. Nevermind the free upgrades. What has fundamentally changes since 7? I only started using W since 6 so anything prior to that, I would have no Idea of their release performance. All in all I've been happy, but soonafter disappointed.

That ONLINE help was only recent if I'm not mistaken and prior onliine help outside of the forum were referrals to other sites.It was only a year ago that they started putting online resources on their site. Not to flame NT but everything they are doing is GREAT!! Gets better each year.

Anyway I still think it is foolish to buy what you haven't tested, but thats my opinion., I'm in the lucky position to test it in production before buying for myself. You drop me line when you recover from the overwhelming joy of LW8!!! you go girl:D

Psyhke
12-09-2003, 10:21 AM
I would tend to agree with you, actually. It is, in fact, ONLY because of the DFX+ deal that I pre-ordered. I know I would not have pre-ordered otherwise, and I'm sure most would say the same thing if they thought about it. There are a few other programs that I know I will pretty much always get the upgrades for as they come, but I don't ever send them my money until they are actually done and available for purchase.

So, my point would be that for people pre-ording LW8 it is almost certainly only about the DFX+ deal, otherwise they would wait until it was released since there is really no incentive or reason to do so, regardless of how positive they are that they will purchase it once it is released.

RomainR
12-09-2003, 10:58 AM
Hervé,

It is hard to be french when you're not in a french friendly envirenoment. But that's another topic.

:D

Gabe
12-09-2003, 01:35 PM
cause right now I don't know if it's worth to upgrade to [8] or not....
Then wait. What do we care if you want to wait or not?! If I had the bread to spare I'd preorder, but then again, good 'ol LW 7.5 still has plenty of tricks I've yet to learn.

Alan Daniels
12-09-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by blantyre
XSI offers legendary tech support and maintainence, the idea that the company will send an engineer to help you complete a project is astounding. Newtek does not and thats why I think its not smart to just buy it because....

That "astounding" tech support is the difference between $15 hundred and $17 thousand. XSI costs more than ten times as much as Lightwave. For 17 grand, they should have an airplane circling above my house, with tech support ready to parachute down as soon as I press a button on my desk, and when they land they have tons of answers and a fresh pot of coffee. :D

I'm still at the learning stage, so feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt, but one the reasons I decided on LW was that it would give me everything I need out of the box, for a decent price (decent as in I wouldn't have to eat ramen noodles for a year). The main reason was that the quality of work I'd seen done in LW was as good as anything I've seen for XSI or Maya. That plus the great community LW has.

Then again, if I ran a movie effects house, I'd think in terms of workflow for 100s of animators, full-time sysadmins who do nothing but tweak the renders, etc, and price really wouldn't be part of the decision. Does this mean that LW will never dominate in the "money is no object" realm where XSI is strongest? I don't know, but it's irrelevant to since that's not where I'm at. XSI and LW are aimed at different markets, really.

Nemoid
12-09-2003, 02:06 PM
I quite agree: Lw is more suitable for solo users or small studios 5-6 persons, while apps like XSI are more suitable for large studios, for their deepness but especially because of their price and renderting node price. with Lw so far you get a very good app at a cheap price with unlimited rendering nodes to build your little or huge render farm depending from money you spend for processors, not nodes.

maybe in the future this situation will change, especially if prices go down ( no more great tech support if so) but for now things are like this. Lw keeps to be the best for its price level.