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Niko3D
10-28-2015, 07:07 AM
Hi all,

it's a bit time that I'm thinking what must be complicated one node for to be realistic...or great. I'm talking about "simple" material like wooden floor...not vegetation or something else...even if I saw one vegetation node not really complicated but incredibly realistc.
I don't understand why in VRay or Corona in comparison to Lightwave Materials these nodes look more easy, the quality is much better and and they are more intuitive?!
I checked a lot of example and it's always the same thing...I've attached one example that I found in Vray...and the wooden floor in Kray from the great Janusz Biela.
Probably the native materials from the renderer (Vray materials, Corona materials, Octane materials, Arnold materials ect...) are really better than Lightwave Nodes Materials. It seems to create the nodes with similar quality in LW is veeeery complicated.

What do you think?I would like to improve my skill in nodes...but it looks too complicated, I'm not an engineer or developer!:(

130596130597

pinkmouse
10-28-2015, 07:23 AM
If you're serious about surfacing with nodes in LW, you really need to buy IFW2 (http://www.shaders.co.uk/ifw2_nodal/about.htm), along with downloading various other free stuff from db&w, DP, and Trueart. The stock nodes you get with LW are fairly basic, and their limitations can lead to much frustration. With an expanded palette of 3rd party nodes, surfacing becomes much more fun, and much more realistic. Then it's just a case of looking at tutorials, playing with existing nodal textures, and having fun.

It's a different way of working than layers, so needs a bit of adjustment, but once you get the hang of it, you'll never go back. ;)

Niko3D
10-28-2015, 07:34 AM
If you're serious about surfacing with nodes in LW, you really need to buy IFW2 (http://www.shaders.co.uk/ifw2_nodal/about.htm), along with downloading various other free stuff from db&w, DP, and Trueart. The stock nodes you get with LW are fairly basic, and their limitations can lead to much frustration. With an expanded palette of 3rd party nodes, surfacing becomes much more fun, and much more realistic. Then it's just a case of looking at tutorials, playing with existing nodal textures, and having fun.

It's a different way of working than layers, so needs a bit of adjustment, but once you get the hang of it, you'll never go back. ;)

I'm already using the LW nodes...but I would like to improve them...but it looks very complicated...
In any case my point/question is...Corona or Vray nodes look more easy, less complicated and more intuitive than in LW (SpotInfo?, Logic?, Blend? ect)...look at my attachments for the floor!There's a big difference among them!
BTW...thank you!;)

pinkmouse
10-28-2015, 07:42 AM
I think that's probably due to the newer tech of Corona, Vray, etc. They have less "legacy" stuff that needs to be dealt with and newer shading models. I suspect this will all change completely with the new LW2016.

BTW, Spot info is really, really useful, once you work out what it does! :)

Niko3D
10-28-2015, 08:03 AM
Yes I think you're right!Fingers crossed for LW2016!;)
How it works Spot Info?

Every4thPixel
10-28-2015, 09:39 AM
I think you are misunderstanding nodes. Is you opinion based on comparing the screenshots you posted because I'm getting the feeling you don't know what's going on in these node setups? It seems like you are overthinking LW's nodes. You don't need complex node setups like you are suggesting. You can get really awesome results with just a gradient and a invert node and some reflection blur.

Niko3D
10-28-2015, 10:36 AM
I think you are misunderstanding nodes. Is you opinion based on comparing the screenshots you posted because I'm getting the feeling you don't know what's going on in these node setups? It seems like you are overthinking LW's nodes. You don't need complex node setups like you are suggesting. You can get really awesome results with just a gradient and a invert node and some reflection blur.

Yes, probably you're right...:)
But often I saw very complicated nodes in LW...and I don't understand why in some Vray/Corona bla bla bla tutorials the nodes are not very complicated and the texture are impressive.
Of course...the quality of the light is also very different...

It's just my impression about that...

prometheus
10-28-2015, 10:57 AM
Seems like you are complicating things, what lw node was so complex and described a wooden floor surface? or was it something else it described,as every4thpixel described..not necessary to complicate stuff.

apart from setting nodes up with reflection etc...if you are looking for wooden floor procedurals (you could use high quality textures of course) but heres some free resources for procedurals..

http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/plugins/textures/Planks.html

http://www.darksim.com/Repository/tx_Wood/

And some nice wood flooring...
http://www.darksim.com/html/simbiontlw.html

Michael

Niko3D
10-28-2015, 11:06 AM
Thanks!;)

prometheus
10-28-2015, 11:22 AM
simbiont shaders/textures might be a bit tricky to install and use though, and I am not sure how they work with lw 2015 but will test it soon.

rcallicotte
10-28-2015, 11:25 AM
Won't all of this nodal texturing change by a bit with PBR coming in 2016? Good to know, before I invest time and $$ in learning anything 3rd party...or not?

pinkmouse
10-28-2015, 12:06 PM
Just a quick example of something I was working on today. Node networks really don't need to be hugely complicated to get good results.

130600

Niko3D
10-28-2015, 12:07 PM
simbiont shaders/textures might be a bit tricky to install and use though, and I am not sure how they work with lw 2015 but will test it soon.

Ok!I've just dowloaded now...I'll try it soon!
Thanks...;)

pinkmouse
10-28-2015, 12:11 PM
Won't all of this nodal texturing change by a bit with PBR coming in 2016? Good to know, before I invest time and $$ in learning anything 3rd party...or not?

Who knows! :)

It will change, I'm sure, but how much? I'm sure the basic principles will remain the same, and nodal, when it comes down to it, is more a way of thinking than a definitive set of rules.

- - - Updated - - -


simbiont shaders/textures might be a bit tricky to install and use though, and I am not sure how they work with lw 2015 but will test it soon.

Never looked, Windoze only...:)

Niko3D
10-28-2015, 12:11 PM
Just a quick example of something I was working on today. Node networks really don't need to be hugely complicated to get good results.

130600

Yes, no bad!!!!
This is exactly what I'm talking...with no very complicated nodes in LW we can have very nice texture. But it looks to me (MAYBE I'M WRONG)...in Vray or Corona or Octane ect...with the same levels of nodes the texture is not nice is GREAT, this is the point for me.
For to have have the same texture quality in LW is not easy.

BTW...The lemon is very nice!:)

pinkmouse
10-28-2015, 12:20 PM
...For to have have the same texture quality in LW is not easy.

A proper realistic lighting setup would help no end. Which seems to be much easier in other render engines


BTW...The lemon is very nice!:)

Thanks, it's getting there!

gerardstrada
10-28-2015, 03:40 PM
Yes, probably you're right...:)
But often I saw very complicated nodes in LW...and I don't understand why in some Vray/Corona bla bla bla tutorials the nodes are not very complicated and the texture are impressive.
Of course...the quality of the light is also very different...

It's just my impression about that...
In LW we can build our shaders through nodes or we can use pre-existing shaders known as Materials.

When you see very complex node setups is because people have chosen to build their own shaders from scratch. This means that every property in a given shader is designed by the user and they can be very complex when trying to conform to a physically plausible paradigm. i.e. To add a fresnel effect you can use a Gradient, a Curve, an Incidence node, a Schlick's Approximation node, a Fresnel node, etc.

The other way is to use a Material that could match the properties of the surface you want to replicate. Commonly, these shaders already provide useful generic parameters to achieve this. i.e: a generic fresnel parameter with IOR may be already included. In cases you are not happy with the result, you can still modify the output surface properties of these generic materials (diffuse shading, reflection shading, refraction shading, etc) with common nodes to customize the output further on. For shiny wood surface for example, you might want to try with CarPaint material (without the Flakes).

Then, when comparing LW node setups within LW or with other renderers is good to make this distinction. In this regard, LW materials are commonly simpler since things like subdivisions (shading samples) or MaxDepth (Ray Recursion Limit), etc are adjusted globally in LW. Though I think doing this per surface should be still a (hidden) option.

Btw, Brent Burley proposed an interesting "universal" flexible shader for PBS some few years ago:

http://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/h/hanecci/20130719/20130719194025.jpg



Gerardo

Niko3D
10-29-2015, 03:49 AM
In LW we can build our shaders through nodes or we can use pre-existing shaders known as Materials.

When you see very complex node setups is because people have chosen to build their own shaders from scratch. This means that every property in a given shader is designed by the user and they can be very complex when trying to conform to a physically plausible paradigm. i.e. To add a fresnel effect you can use a Gradient, a Curve, an Incidence node, a Schlick's Approximation node, a Fresnel node, etc.

The other way is to use a Material that could match the properties of the surface you want to replicate. Commonly, these shaders already provide useful generic parameters to achieve this. i.e: a generic fresnel parameter with IOR may be already included. In cases you are not happy with the result, you can still modify the output surface properties of these generic materials (diffuse shading, reflection shading, refraction shading, etc) with common nodes to customize the output further on. For shiny wood surface for example, you might want to try with CarPaint material (without the Flakes).

Then, when comparing LW node setups within LW or with other renderers is good to make this distinction. In this regard, LW materials are commonly simpler since things like subdivisions (shading samples) or MaxDepth (Ray Recursion Limit), etc are adjusted globally in LW. Though I think doing this per surface should be still a (hidden) option.

Btw, Brent Burley proposed an interesting "universal" flexible shader for PBS some few years ago:

http://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/h/hanecci/20130719/20130719194025.jpg



Gerardo

mmmm...yes I understand we can have a lot of solutions, but for me in any case is less intuitive...
Why do you have to do one wood with CarPaint material if is for CarPaint material?...

anyway...I have in my library one wood node made in CarPaint (eheheheh).

S0nny
10-29-2015, 05:01 AM
Niko3d, I think Every4thpixel is right, you are just overthinking nodes. Node are just the way you can surface with more options and a more precise approach.

BTW looking at the vray example you posted I can tell you that it's as easy as in lw nodes: it's nothing more than color, reflection, bump and blur with some fresnel.
What's your specific problem in replicating a wood surface?

Here is just an example, some painted/oiled whatever wood, nothing really special at this point. Keep in mind it's not the way I usually do, but in this super basic example you can easily understand what's going on.

edit: read carefully what Gerardo is telling, nodes are counterintuitive just in the beginning when you actually don't know what a specific node can/can't do. For your question, you can use carpaint node for wood if you need a coated wood, there's no coating options in other material nodes, it's the simplest way to do it.

Niko3D
10-29-2015, 05:28 AM
Hi S0nny,

Yes sure...infact I said to Every4thpixel was right!;)
I don't have specific problem with the wood...I was talking about general nodes texturing.
Your example is brilliant example!!!!Thanks...:)

S0nny
10-29-2015, 06:21 AM
Hi S0nny,
I don't have specific problem with the wood...I was talking about general nodes texturing.


Well, if you have a good understanding of nodes in lw you can translate most of the vray/max/cinema etc tutorials on the internet about surfacing, at least the ones with the most common materials (wood, leather, fabrics, concrete, metal, plastic etc), which is what you are talking about. At some point is just about a different interface. Blender i.e. is pretty similar as lw when it comes to nodes. The network may be overly complex, but usually, for the most common materials, the complexity is just about the number or mixing textures/procedurals/bumps etc. Limit comes in a more complex scenario like heavy complex blur ref, vray dirt, micropoly displacement, coatings, sss etc. Everything else is lightning, which is where you can see the big difference from an engine to the other.

I suggest you the Rebel Hill tutorials on nodes and the Dw Burman about gradients on liberty 3d. Maybe not for archviz specifics but very usefull nontheless.

Niko3D
10-29-2015, 06:44 AM
Well, if you have a good understanding of nodes in lw you can translate most of the vray/max/cinema etc tutorials on the internet about surfacing, at least the ones with the most common materials (wood, leather, fabrics, concrete, metal, plastic etc), which is what you are talking about. At some point is just about a different interface. Blender i.e. is pretty similar as lw when it comes to nodes. The network may be overly complex, but usually, for the most common materials, the complexity is just about the number or mixing textures/procedurals/bumps etc. Limit comes in a more complex scenario like heavy complex blur ref, vray dirt, micropoly displacement, coatings, sss etc. Everything else is lightning, which is where you can see the big difference from an engine to the other.

I suggest you the Rebel Hill tutorials on nodes and the Dw Burman about gradients on liberty 3d. Maybe not for archviz specifics but very usefull nontheless.

I'm not a guru of the nodes...but I use them of course...
BTW I agree with you...Thanks a lot, I will check the tutorials...:)

RebelHill
10-29-2015, 09:49 AM
There's no need at all for nodal setups to be complicated to do simple things... but you can make them as complex as you desire for doing more detail specific things.

Check out the tutorials, they'll help you understand more about working with nodes...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1C4072533A16B807

Niko3D
10-29-2015, 10:16 AM
There's no need at all for nodal setups to be complicated to do simple things... but you can make them as complex as you desire for doing more detail specific things.

Check out the tutorials, they'll help you understand more about working with nodes...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1C4072533A16B807

Sure!
Thank you!...I've just saved your youtube page...;)

gerardstrada
10-29-2015, 02:47 PM
mmmm...yes I understand we can have a lot of solutions, but for me in any case is less intuitive...
Why do you have to do one wood with CarPaint material if is for CarPaint material?...
Because CarPaint material is not only for carpaint surfaces, as skin materials are not only for skin, or as dielectric material is not only for glass, and so on. For shiny wood (let's say a wooden floor) Carpaint could be useful because you have there the natural sof reflection of the base material (naked wood) and also a clear coat layer for the varnish, and parameters like fresnel or layered reflections would be solved in a simpler way in a single node and you wouldn't have to deal with different nodes and outputs from fresnel, diffuse, reflections, etc. Of course, you won't need things like iridescence or flakes, but you can prescind from them. For natural wood you might use a simpler material, just don't limit the materials use only by their names :)


anyway...I have in my library one wood node made in CarPaint (eheheheh).
...I'm not surprised, I had somewhere here some vegetables surfaces made with a modified skin material :D



Gerardo

Niko3D
10-30-2015, 03:31 AM
Because CarPaint material is not only for carpaint surfaces, as skin materials are not only for skin, or as dielectric material is not only for glass, and so on. For shiny wood (let's say a wooden floor) Carpaint could be useful because you have there the natural sof reflection of the base material (naked wood) and also a clear coat layer for the varnish, and parameters like fresnel or layered reflections would be solved in a simpler way in a single node and you wouldn't have to deal with different nodes and outputs from fresnel, diffuse, reflections, etc. Of course, you won't need things like iridescence or flakes, but you can prescind from them. For natural wood you might use a simpler material, just don't limit the materials use only by their names :)


...I'm not surprised, I had somewhere here some vegetables surfaces made with a modified skin material :D



Gerardo

Yes you're right!
But for me it's less intuitive...isn’t it? To me I would never have thought of using CarPaint material for wood...just because is called CarPaint...
So...now I would like to try the skin material with vegetables!eheheh...;)