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robpowers3d
09-28-2015, 07:49 AM
We have considered the comments from those of you who have expressed concern for upgrading based solely on my promises and no real evidence of substantial advancements in the LightWave architecture and systems. So, I would like to share with you some quick render samples that have been created showing our completely new rendering, shading, and volumetric engine which will be part of the next LightWave release.

This is not some form of reworking of the old render engine but it is an entirely new physically based render “PBR” engine. Complete new GI, materials, and lights are part of this new system as well. To be clear, this is not some planned future technology, but it is now implemented in LightWave.
Starting this week we will launch a new blog sharing more details on this and other LightWave developments. However, I wanted to share a little more than a sneak peek with you now to help those who have expressed their desire to see something “real”.

I do want to mention these renders have not been prepared to show outside of our internal team. They have been quick tests shared back and forth during our internal discussions.

I hope this information is helpful and begins to illustrate the level of development that I have been referring to. Please stay tuned because much more detail is forthcoming.

Farhad_azer
09-28-2015, 07:56 AM
Wow.

Brötje
09-28-2015, 08:03 AM
That looks really nice. I'm excited. Now I just need a new particle system and we're golden.

djwaterman
09-28-2015, 08:04 AM
This is very good to see, and it looks serious. So I'm on the brink of doing the upgrade. I wonder if sub pixel displacement is also ready for this next release. I know it's in the plans.

jeric_synergy
09-28-2015, 08:05 AM
:D Now, that's a good tease, very intriguing. :thumbsup:

OnlineRender
09-28-2015, 08:05 AM
I hope this information is helpful and begins to illustrate the level of development that I have been referring to. Please stay tuned because much more detail is forthcoming.

put that in your pipe and smoke it Jeric ;)

thomascheng
09-28-2015, 08:06 AM
Thank you. This is exciting.

omichon
09-28-2015, 08:09 AM
Let's hope render time makes those stuff usable in production.

luciano
09-28-2015, 08:09 AM
Thank you ...wow VERY VERY INTERESTING

dsol
09-28-2015, 08:11 AM
One word. AWESOME!

artzgo
09-28-2015, 08:13 AM
thanks Rob, it is very important for users what you showed

thomascheng
09-28-2015, 08:17 AM
Sorry, had to ask. TFD had a problem with particle advection, will this LW correct that? OpenVDB with vectors to drive particles.

Marander
09-28-2015, 08:19 AM
Dear Rob

Wow, just wow! With this announcement you're fulfilling my wildest dreams about a future LightWave! To be honest I was wishing for PBR but didn't expect it to come. Congrats on this achievement!

I'm so glad I upgraded last weekend and happily looking forward to LW 2016, many sleepless nights ahead...

Best regards,

Marander / Michael


We have considered the comments from those of you who have expressed concern for upgrading based solely on my promises and no real evidence of substantial advancements in the LightWave architecture and systems. So, I would like to share with you some quick render samples that have been created showing our completely new rendering, shading, and volumetric engine which will be part of the next LightWave release.

This is not some form of reworking of the old render engine but it is an entirely new physically based render “PBR” engine. Complete new GI, materials, and lights are part of this new system as well. To be clear, this is not some planned future technology, but it is now implemented in LightWave.
Starting this week we will launch a new blog sharing more details on this and other LightWave developments. However, I wanted to share a little more than a sneak peek with you now to help those who have expressed their desire to see something “real”.

I do want to mention these renders have not been prepared to show outside of our internal team. They have been quick tests shared back and forth during our internal discussions.

I hope this information is helpful and begins to illustrate the level of development that I have been referring to. Please stay tuned because much more detail is forthcoming.

Brötje
09-28-2015, 08:20 AM
Sorry, had to ask. TFD had a problem with particle advection, will this LW correct that? OpenVDB with vectors to drive particles.

Yeah, the whole system needs an overhaul. I have cursed many times because I could not set steps in particles, and the resolution doesn't deliver.

hrgiger
09-28-2015, 08:21 AM
Rob, thank you for listening. Looks great!

Cyberfish_Fred
09-28-2015, 08:21 AM
Awesome! And rendertimes?

thomascheng
09-28-2015, 08:23 AM
Yeah, the whole system needs an overhaul. I have cursed many times because I could not set steps in particles, and the resolution doesn't deliver.

Yeah, this is my number one factor right now. As long as it is promised in the 2016 cycle (doesn't have to be ready by launch), I'll buy in. Other than that, this is looking promising.

ivanze
09-28-2015, 08:25 AM
Amazing!!!

mummyman
09-28-2015, 08:26 AM
Any way to share how long some of these took. Particularly, the SSS green dragon image?

jboudreau
09-28-2015, 08:28 AM
This is Awesome!!. Thanks Rob and the lightwave Development Team!! If this is just the start of what we are going to see, I can't wait to see what else you guys have to show.

ernesttx
09-28-2015, 08:28 AM
Congrats Rob and team. These look great. Looking forward to all the new stuff. Keep it coming.

robpowers3d
09-28-2015, 08:29 AM
Awesome! And rendertimes?

We will be proving more details on render times and other information in the upcoming blog posts but I will say that we are very, very pleased with the render speed tests which we have been conducting with other comparable render engines.

jeric_synergy
09-28-2015, 08:29 AM
put that in your pipe and smoke it Jeric ;)
You mean "here's an even better tease"?

Perhaps you mistook my meaning: As an ex-advertising guy, "good tease" is a term of approbation.

mummyman
09-28-2015, 08:30 AM
AMAZING (Hopefully!)

nez
09-28-2015, 08:31 AM
**** me. Sincerely I didn't see that coming. Love it. Thank you.

nmh
09-28-2015, 08:34 AM
wow
very good
perhaps later I will upgrade LW..

ary3d
09-28-2015, 08:35 AM
woooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:boogiedow:boogiedow

Waves of light
09-28-2015, 08:41 AM
Wow! There is a saying 'put your money where your mouth is'... this is more putting your mouth where the money will be.

50one
09-28-2015, 08:44 AM
Thanks Rob & team. Looks good!

lightscape
09-28-2015, 08:53 AM
Thanks Rob. I have a thread created all about PBR and here we are. I hope substance support will come.

P.S.
See that wasn't that hard to reveal a little hint. Not like other companies are going to steal it. :D

lertola2
09-28-2015, 08:53 AM
This is great news. I am really looking forward to LW2016.

ConjureBunny
09-28-2015, 08:58 AM
Holy cow that is beautiful!!

dsol
09-28-2015, 09:00 AM
I'm just gonna say - though a lot of people are frustrated that Rob & the Dev Team are a lot cagier than they'd like about the state of LW dev and their internal roadmap, I'd much rather see that than have a product manager who promised the earth, but only produced a broken, unusable app that was in a pre-alpha state and Osbourne'd the company's current main sellable product.

The new pics are great, and I'm really excited to have a good alternative to hypervoxels. I'm more excited to hear that integration and architectural improvements are going to make an appearance in this update. I'm doing quite a bit of projection mapping and set extension these days, and LW's non-integrated modelling causes me a lot of headaches. So hopefully we'll see some changes on that front. And maybe even a unified Undo stack? :)

As for the new pricing structure, yeah it could've been handled better. I think it's better to - as reasonably as possible - encourage all users to be using the most recent version of the software. I'm a pre-charter user, and am on 2015 already, but even if it means me losing my "special" status, I think it's worth getting more LW users current by dropping the upgrade price to $299 (post LW2015).

Tobian
09-28-2015, 09:01 AM
I'm very excited about these new features, very nice work team! :D

and lightscape, what thread about PBR? and I made a Substance painter compound a while back, if it's useful?

Reco
09-28-2015, 09:14 AM
Thats greate news.
Does it work well with maps created with exsternal applications like DDO, Substance Designer and 3dcoat?

Reco

mav3rick
09-28-2015, 09:15 AM
hmm looks legit... want more ;)

Andy Webb
09-28-2015, 09:28 AM
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

robpowers3d
09-28-2015, 09:28 AM
hmm looks legit... want more ;)

It is absolutely legit and that is why I am talking about it now. More details will be coming over the next few week, starting this week.

adk
09-28-2015, 09:29 AM
I'm totally unimpressed with the timing of this thread Rob. It's 1.30 am here and I was about to go to bed. Now I'll just sit here and hit refresh for a few hours :)
Seriously tho, well done Rob and congratulations to the entire development team. Can't wait to see more and hear about all the changes. Kudos guys and gals!

lightscape
09-28-2015, 09:36 AM
I'm very excited about these new features, very nice work team! :D

and lightscape, what thread about PBR? and I made a Substance painter compound a while back, if it's useful?

Its somewhere in this forum. :D
Substance is more than the static texture outputs. Integration is vital since most appz are sharing its base features and sbsar files.
Dynamic, animatable effects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1-iPexmJ1g

even Iclone and Fuse have Substance technology.

Tobian
09-28-2015, 09:42 AM
Wait, let me get my really small violin to play along to the 'everything else has this' song :D Well I made a nice compound, I can't do magic with nodes :)

Nicolas Jordan
09-28-2015, 09:46 AM
Great to hear Lightwave has a new render engine! I can't wait to get my hands on it to learn it and test it! I'm also very curious to see the new Lightwave UI that I assuem Mat has been working on these past few years! Lightwave would have to have a new UI in this upcoming version wouldn't it?

lardbros
09-28-2015, 09:51 AM
Whoah... these are some damn fine renders Rob! Sneaky dev team, working so hard and so quietly! :D
Thanks for sharing! :) Grinning from ear to ear right now!

maxreal
09-28-2015, 09:52 AM
Wow !!! this is fantastic

Vong
09-28-2015, 09:56 AM
You had me at $295.... But, now... I'm in, baby!!!!! :D

mummyman
09-28-2015, 09:59 AM
GPU? CPU? Hopefully that gets answered fast. Not sure I'd want to update my graphics card too. We'll see! Hopefully all this stuff works great with VPR and F9 F10/ Screamernet still exists (or has gotten better)

rcallicotte
09-28-2015, 10:04 AM
w-w-w-w-w-w-w-WOW!

Thanks Rob!

sadkkf
09-28-2015, 10:08 AM
Faith in humanity...restored. Thanks, Rob! Really looking forward to learning more and seeing more!

Wireframex
09-28-2015, 10:10 AM
Can't wait :)

ernesttx
09-28-2015, 10:15 AM
Rob, where will the new blog be located - forums, facebook, other? Thanks

kadri
09-28-2015, 10:19 AM
I haven't seen Prometheus around.I am afraid he is still in shock after those volumetric things :D

Seriously this looks nice. I wasn't going to upgrade but now it looks tempting. A little more information and i might upgrade.

davidsenna03
09-28-2015, 10:24 AM
Wow I've been looking for this for a long time now. I really hope LW's render engine remains as fast as it currently is (one will hope to be faster but considering the results of this tests, it will be great if it stays as fast as it is).

Thumbs up for the development team.

calilifestyle
09-28-2015, 10:25 AM
Where will the Blog be posted.

RIG
09-28-2015, 10:31 AM
That example is not really...I mean, itīs niceīn all, but when I hear "architectural changes" and "integration" I donīt think about the render engine.

What about layout/modeler integration?

nez
09-28-2015, 10:33 AM
I genuinely wanted this hype related to lw. Eager to see more updates!

lino.grandi
09-28-2015, 10:34 AM
GPU? CPU? Hopefully that gets answered fast. Not sure I'd want to update my graphics card too. We'll see! Hopefully all this stuff works great with VPR and F9 F10/ Screamernet still exists (or has gotten better)

The new render is totally CPU based.

jeric_synergy
09-28-2015, 10:38 AM
Seriously this looks nice. I wasn't going to upgrade but now it looks tempting. A little more information and i might upgrade.
Just to be clear: if you're upgrading to 2015, you won't be getting this until you upgrade to 2016.

It'll be a little while yet.

lightscape
09-28-2015, 10:39 AM
The new pics are great, and I'm really excited to have a good alternative to hypervoxels. I'm more excited to hear that integration and architectural improvements are going to make an appearance in this update. I'm doing quite a bit of projection mapping and set extension these days, and LW's non-integrated modelling causes me a lot of headaches. So hopefully we'll see some changes on that front. And maybe even a unified Undo stack? :)


This! Let me have basic modelling tools in layout.

mummyman
09-28-2015, 10:40 AM
The new render is totally CPU based.

Thanks, Lino!

OFF
09-28-2015, 10:40 AM
am I really lived to see this? :)
fast and clear GI?! non flicker animation with GI in LW?
fast and superior volumetrics??
something are here probably wrong - all this is too good ))

artzgo
09-28-2015, 10:49 AM
The new render is totally CPU based.

THX a lot ... We have Octane on GPU

Waves of light
09-28-2015, 10:52 AM
The new render is totally CPU based.

High five for that man. Sorry, just nice to hear as I haven't gone down the Octane route yet.

Waves of light
09-28-2015, 10:55 AM
That example is not really...I mean, itīs niceīn all, but when I hear "architectural changes" and "integration" I donīt think about the render engine.

What about layout/modeler integration?

No offence RIG, but are you some sort of Sleeper Poster (like a sleeper agent). You've been a member since 2009 and this is your first post. What were the activation word(s)... architectural changes, integration, return to CORE? lol.

probiner
09-28-2015, 10:56 AM
No offence RIG, but are you some sort of Sleeper Poster (like a sleeper agent). You've been a member since 2009 and this is your first post. What were the activation word(s)... architectural changes, integration, return to CORE? lol.


Well, he is right though. These nice renders speak nothing to those subjects that are far more enticing than pretty volumetrics.

kadri
09-28-2015, 10:58 AM
Just to be clear: if you're upgrading to 2015, you won't be getting this until you upgrade to 2016.

It'll be a little while yet.
Yep i know but 2015 doesn't have much what i wanted so i wanted to skip it.Now it is harder to skip.

erikals
09-28-2015, 11:13 AM
curious on how it will compare to Octane

time will tell... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/lwicon.png

mav3rick
09-28-2015, 11:16 AM
curious on how it will compare to Octane

time will tell... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/lwicon.png

you think arnold? as that would be CPU vs CPU compare

erikals
09-28-2015, 11:22 AM
no, was thinking Octane, but Arnold comparison would be interesting also...

juanjgon
09-28-2015, 11:22 AM
you think arnold? as that would be CPU vs CPU compare

Yes, a PBR CPU engine is better compared to engines like Arnold or Renderman/RIS. Octane or Redshift are other kind of renderers, with other architecture, and it is hard compare a CPU engine with them.

-Juanjo

RobertGraham
09-28-2015, 11:29 AM
Thanks for listening Rob.

And those renders look stunning. Will start saving now ;)

erikals
09-28-2015, 11:32 AM
i've seen some great skin renders in Octane, wonder if PBR could be good for realistic skin also...

https://render.otoy.com/forum/download/file.php?id=18403&mode=view
https://s3.amazonaws.com/bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-gallery/media/folder_243/display_2424831.jpg

Niko3D
09-28-2015, 11:35 AM
Wow!Thank you...
I hope it will be very competitive with Corona/Vray bla bla bla...

Thanks a lot Rob and Team.;)

mummyman
09-28-2015, 11:42 AM
i've seen some great skin renders in Octane, wonder if PBR could be good for realistic skin also...

https://render.otoy.com/forum/download/file.php?id=18403&mode=view

Very nice! But... only a still image? I read about subsurface still crawling somewhat in Octane. I have no clue. I don't use it.

erikals
09-28-2015, 11:44 AM
by the way,

i cannot seem to download the example vidz in the first post,
anyone with the same problem ?

- - - Updated - - -


Very nice! But... only a still image? I read about subsurface still crawling somewhat in Octane. I have no clue. I don't use it.

no... 15 minutes >
https://render.otoy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25052

ernpchan
09-28-2015, 11:45 AM
by the way,

i cannot seem to download the example vidz in the first post,
anyone with the same problem ?



I just d/led them just fine.

m.d.
09-28-2015, 11:49 AM
Just FYI comparing octane......octane 3 will be CPU as well as GPU....

But not to change the subject.....new renderer looks awesome so far....especially the volumetrics

Back in the day when I was learning maya in class training (2004 ish) there was nothing comparable in maya at the time to hypervoxels....and there was a tiny bit of jealousy there.....would be nice for Lightwave to take a lead in volumetrics again.

- - - Updated - - -



by the way,

i cannot seem to download the example vidz in the first post,
anyone with the same problem ?

- - - Updated - - -



no... 15 minutes >
https://render.otoy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25052

got them fine...you got 7zip?

erikals
09-28-2015, 11:50 AM
no, just regular zip...

LightWave New PBR Videos.7z (292.8 KB, 133 views)

but no biggie...

mummyman
09-28-2015, 11:51 AM
by the way,

i cannot seem to download the example vidz in the first post,
anyone with the same problem ?

- - - Updated - - -



no... 15 minutes >
https://render.otoy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25052

Cool link.. thanks!

m.d.
09-28-2015, 11:54 AM
no, just regular zip...


but no biggie...

7zip is the bomb

Photogram
09-28-2015, 11:55 AM
Wow!

Very welcome!
A new Physical render mean more realistic lights and real refractions!!! ;) I hope we get the phisical glare and bloom!!!

Any news on the modeler improvement? sculpt tools ;)
Pleezzz

PeteS
09-28-2015, 11:55 AM
FANTASTIC NEWS!!!!! Looking forward to LW kicking into the next level of all it;s loyal fans!

Bitboy
09-28-2015, 12:22 PM
This looks great! Thanks for spilling some beans about this Rob - makes me excited about the future upgrade :) Will definitely be watching the blog (where?)...

lino.grandi
09-28-2015, 12:29 PM
I quick note about the clouds fly-through animation. It has been generated as a preview in VPR, and each frame took about 3 seconds, if I recall well.

RIG
09-28-2015, 12:30 PM
No offence RIG, but are you some sort of Sleeper Poster (like a sleeper agent). You've been a member since 2009 and this is your first post. What were the activation word(s)... architectural changes, integration, return to CORE? lol.

return to CORE would fit the current marketing, yes.

Adding pbr rendering is not a significant architectural change in the context of what has been alluded to for years now, which is getting proper and modern modeling in a Layout environment.

So far this the same BS LW users have been hearing for years and specially during the CORE fiasco.

"Pay and commit now, you might like what weīll do in the future...maybe! Look, here are some screenshots and renders!"

Been there, done that.

jeric_synergy
09-28-2015, 12:31 PM
People keep referring to a blog, but I must have missed it-- it's not in the first post (I hope, since I've checked 3 times), where is it referred to?

+FWIW, I think a blog is redundant: Rob has a whole forum right here. He can just shut off commenting and "wallaugh!" it's a blog.

raw-m
09-28-2015, 12:45 PM
Water on Mars, yaaawn! Thanks for the peak, really looking forward to more gravy :D

safarifx
09-28-2015, 12:46 PM
now I hate it that I'm not a lw beta tester!

:(

snip safx

Nicolas Jordan
09-28-2015, 12:50 PM
Water on Mars, yaaawn! Thanks for the peak, really looking forward to more gravy :D

Yes more gravy please! :D

jeric_synergy
09-28-2015, 12:53 PM
now I hate it that I'm not a lw beta tester!
:(
snip safx
Thankless task, filled with heartache and bugs. Bugs no one can help you with because you are the first to see them.

safarifx
09-28-2015, 01:00 PM
Thankless task, filled with heartache and bugs. Bugs no one can help you with because you are the first to see them.

not if i test it ;)

snip safx

jeric_synergy
09-28-2015, 01:04 PM
not if i test it ;)
If you don't FIND bugs, you wouldn't be much of a beta-tester. Pretty much what the job IS.

Luc_Feri
09-28-2015, 01:28 PM
Awesome, I felt sure PBR had to come but I didn't expect it in the form of a new shading engine. :D

I can see those medical, health and science visualizers getting very very stoked by those test renders!!

mummyman
09-28-2015, 01:29 PM
Awesome, I felt sure PBR had to come but I didn't expect it in the form of a new shading engine. :D

I can see those medical, health and science visualizers getting very very stoked by those test renders!!

At least this one is! :)

Luc_Feri
09-28-2015, 01:31 PM
At least this one is! :)

Ha Ha for sure they looked really great didn't they!!!

speismonqui
09-28-2015, 01:34 PM
Hi, can someone please share the attachment files from Rob's first post? I'm having issues here (Mac), stuffit expander is doing weird things and I'm not able to download additional software.

Thanks!

Btw, this whole thing looks awesome!

wesleycorgi
09-28-2015, 01:37 PM
Hi, can someone please share the attachment files from Rob's first post? I'm having issues here (Mac), stuffit expander is doing weird things and I'm not able to download additional software.

Thanks!

Btw, this whole thing looks awesome!

I was able to unstuff with the native Mac Unarchiver. BTW, the still shots are a bit more impressive than the animations.

mummyman
09-28-2015, 01:43 PM
Ha Ha for sure they looked really great didn't they!!!

Yes, but I have many questions... as does everyone else! Does "this" work with "that" etc.. how those were actually done. VPR (fast) then F9 (SLOW) VPR is great now, but has it's limits. I'm thinking that might be changing with this post. Hopefully!

ivanze
09-28-2015, 01:49 PM
Another update here to 2015. Nice to support Lightwave development with all these new things coming in 2016. Congratulations to Rob and all the team.

speismonqui
09-28-2015, 01:50 PM
I was able to unstuff with the native Mac Unarchiver. BTW, the still shots are a bit more impressive than the animations.

done! thank you Wesley.

Scazzino
09-28-2015, 01:51 PM
Looks like cool new stuff. Can't wait to try it!

stylus10
09-28-2015, 02:06 PM
so this is in 2015? or the next release of 2015? my question is, if i upgraded today would i have these magical powers? i am covetous of them.

magiclight
09-28-2015, 02:10 PM
No, you do not get any of the new stuff, you get 2015 and it will allow you to buy 2016 for the lower price when it is released.

It's all in the other thread:
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?148219-New-pricing-model

jeric_synergy
09-28-2015, 02:10 PM
so this is in 2015? or the next release of 2015? my question is, if i upgraded today would i have these magical powers? i am covetous of them.
NO, no no no no. @^@

OnlineRender
09-28-2015, 02:11 PM
surely Jin must make an appearance now

http://i.imgur.com/w3lm0Kt.jpg

Wade
09-28-2015, 02:13 PM
so this is in 2015? or the next release of 2015? my question is, if i upgraded today would i have these magical powers? i am covetous of them.

This will be in 2016 so it will be 295.00 if you are currently running 2015 or 795.00 if you upgrade from "pre" 2015.

DrStrik9
09-28-2015, 02:25 PM
I quick note about the clouds fly-through animation. It has been generated as a preview in VPR, and each frame took about 3 seconds, if I recall well.

The video is small, but that's darn good. I just spent a MONTH (27 days) rendering 480 frames of HVs @ 1920x1080.

calilifestyle
09-28-2015, 02:26 PM
So i can't unzip the files.

DrStrik9
09-28-2015, 02:29 PM
On Mac, I had to download a small utility to get z7:

Just drag the file to the newly installed app, located on your dock.

http://www.kekaosx.com/en/

pinkmouse
09-28-2015, 02:38 PM
Here they are, as a zip:

probiner
09-28-2015, 02:59 PM
No one's snubbing the coolness of the render demos when asking about those structural changes, though.

http://fat.gfycat.com/ShadowySoggyEmperorpenguin.gif

http://giant.gfycat.com/HastyAdorableGelding.gif

Cageman
09-28-2015, 03:08 PM
This is sooo awesome! Congrats to Rob and the Dev team!!! This thread made me smile a lot! :)

m.d.
09-28-2015, 03:24 PM
Awesome, I felt sure PBR had to come but I didn't expect it in the form of a new shading engine. :D



can't have one without the other....all your current shading models, binn, lambert etc etc are hacks....i.e. not compatible with physically based shaders.

Not energy conserving, and also having separate specularity gloss and reflection controls etc that can break physically based rules

- - - Updated - - -


I quick note about the clouds fly-through animation. It has been generated as a preview in VPR, and each frame took about 3 seconds, if I recall well.

why so slow :)

Luc_Feri
09-28-2015, 03:38 PM
can't have one without the other....all your current shading models, binn, lambert etc etc are hacks....

Exactly I expected a hack with the old engine!!! :D

Julez4001
09-28-2015, 03:54 PM
11 months of ******!n and moaning of "they are the devils incarnate".
One post and its like the afterglow of night with a old girlfriend.



Can you feel the love.....




and then there's Megalodon...... eheh heh!

Surrealist.
09-28-2015, 03:59 PM
Yeah, chiming in to say thanks for taking our comments to heart. Rob and Team. Well done!

Clearly this is shaping up to look like a great release.

My other feedback would be along the lines of how soon if/when there will be support for hair rendering in this new renderer. And has any thought gone into a workflow to import hair and fur animated in other apps into LightWave to render.

With a great hair rendering solution LightWave would start to look like a place to bring things in to render again. I am speaking for my workflow of course.

All in all exited about this and will be paying attention in the next weeks. :)

hrgiger
09-28-2015, 04:02 PM
My other feedback would be along the lines of how soon if/when there will be support for hair rendering in this new renderer. And has any thought gone into a workflow to import hair and fur animated in other apps into LightWave to render.

With a great hair rendering solution LightWave would start to look like a place to bring things in to render again. I am speaking for my workflow of course.



I pretty much had the same thought.

Luc_Feri
09-28-2015, 04:12 PM
Hair n Fur, Hair n Fur, Hair n Fur!!! :D

Yep the old nemesis.

Modo flash sale at the moment, didn't interest me one bit. I used it once last night, some quick UV's , so sad. I loved that program, I cut my teeth with it, as I banged my head on the table when it crashed again.

I loved that community and program, the souls gone, corporate, corporate, yawn..........

Marander
09-28-2015, 04:26 PM
People keep referring to a blog, but I must have missed it-- it's not in the first post (I hope, since I've checked 3 times), where is it referred to?

+FWIW, I think a blog is redundant: Rob has a whole forum right here. He can just shut off commenting and "wallaugh!" it's a blog.

Rob mentioned that there WILL be a blog which I find a good idea. "Starting this week we will launch a new blog".

To be honest reading some posts here (I don't mean yours) after such a great announcement I would not find it a good idea to publish it here.

LW3D Group should (and I'm sure will) go loud about these innovations as soon as possible and shake up the market but not in a context of some kind of flamewar.

js33
09-28-2015, 05:03 PM
Hair n Fur, Hair n Fur, Hair n Fur!!! :D

Yep the old nemesis.

Modo flash sale at the moment, didn't interest me one bit. I used it once last night, some quick UV's , so sad. I loved that program, I cut my teeth with it, as I banged my head on the table when it crashed again.

I loved that community and program, the souls gone, corporate, corporate, yawn..........

Modo has some nice things about it but for me it is too unstable for serious work. Also it doesn't handle big scenes well. For big scenes LW is more solid and can get the job done. LW is more suited for cranking out frames for animation while Modo is mostly used for modeling and still frames.

Samus
09-28-2015, 05:07 PM
Hey Rob! Hey! Lightwave Development team!! This looks Great.....hopefully it is not only volumetrics but fluid dynamics as well.
Can't wait to see what your keeping under yout sleeves and hood...Promising Work !! Thumbs up!!!

willin
09-28-2015, 05:11 PM
surely Jin must make an appearance now

http://i.imgur.com/w3lm0Kt.jpg

He was correct about CORE.

prometheus
09-28-2015, 05:20 PM
So ..now you guys are forcing me te learn a new volumetric system? YOU canīt Be Serious..just to qoute McEnroe :)
As an hypervoxels fan..but complaining of lack of developments on that, this is indeed exciting, though I understand it will still take time for it to be released, but finally something is happening in that area..I am in on the upgrade tomorrow.

Keep on with the good work Lw team.:thumbsup:

m.d.
09-28-2015, 05:24 PM
So ..now you guys are forcing me te learn a new volumetric system? YOU canīt Be Serious..just to qoute McEnroe :)
As an hypervoxels fan..but complaining of lack of developments on that, this is indeed exciting, though I understand it will still take time for it to be released, but finally something is happening in that area..I am in on the upgrade tomorrow.

Keep on with the good work Lw team.:thumbsup:

the only bad thing for you is you'll be starting over at square 1 with the rest of us.....you'll have to work extra hard to stay king of volumetrics now :)

prometheus
09-28-2015, 05:32 PM
the only bad thing for you is you'll be starting over at square 1 with the rest of us.....you'll have to work extra hard to stay king of volumetrics now :)

yeah..thats what I thought,:) ..no not really...
will have to maintain the stamina of using it A lot and as often as I can...when that comes with the next version that is..but then again, I really think many of the volumetric principles of textures and the general workflow might be
very much similar.. and I will make use of that to stay on top :) as well as my eye for tweaking such stuff...I know I got an eye for fractals and that kind of look...but we will have to see, donīt think I will have to start from square one though.

shrox
09-28-2015, 05:49 PM
Will the "HV's on a Plane" bug be fixed?

jeric_synergy
09-28-2015, 05:56 PM
Will the "HV's on a Plane" bug be fixed?
Worst. Thriller. Evahhhh.

jwiede
09-28-2015, 05:57 PM
Hmm, is it just me, or did the "cloud fly-through" omit flying through actual clouds? Over/under, absolutely, but I didn't get sense of "through" in the sense that's so painful to volumetric systems (as in, view actually passing through the volume being rendered). Did I miss something at end or such?

dsol
09-28-2015, 05:58 PM
Important question for Rob - is there any chance there'll be an open beta for LW2016? Might be a good way to build up some nice images for the official launch
EDIT: And might be an extra-juicy enticement for people to update to 2015, if it allowed them to have early access to the beta when it's ready?

ernpchan
09-28-2015, 06:10 PM
Hmm, is it just me, or did the "cloud fly-through" omit flying through actual clouds? Over/under, absolutely, but I didn't get sense of "through" in the sense that's so painful to volumetric systems (as in, view actually passing through the volume being rendered). Did I miss something at end or such?

No, we were definitely flying above and not through.

hrgiger
09-28-2015, 06:20 PM
Too early to tell from the handful of images/videos Rob posted about how good the new volumetrics are but from first glance they look promising. I'm sure we'll get more details in the coming days.

Greenlaw
09-28-2015, 06:20 PM
I thought we were flying through the cloud but viewing it through a periscope.

prometheus
09-28-2015, 06:24 PM
strange..canīt unpack the 7z files, usally I use jzip, it opens but canīt uncompress.

thanks for listening about new volumetric types that are appliable on geometry, not sure how much you have done..but it looks like it is going that way.

sudac20
09-28-2015, 06:25 PM
I quick note about the clouds fly-through animation. It has been generated as a preview in VPR, and each frame took about 3 seconds, if I recall well.

I am glad you clarified because I was about to post that I was underwhelmed with the videos... Now I am exited, if we can animate sss without noise I am in!

sudac20
09-28-2015, 06:28 PM
I pretty much had the same thought.

yes we need better hair & fur!

Greenlaw
09-28-2015, 06:34 PM
strange..canīt unpack the 7z files, usally I use jzip, it opens but canīt uncompress.

A while back, I had that problem with 7zip on my tablet. The file was a product I purchased from Liberty3D, although I don' t think there was anything wrong with the file itself. Anyway, I switched to PeaZip (also free) and it uncompressed fine.

prometheus
09-28-2015, 06:44 PM
I solved it..downloaded a seperate 7zip tool, so I could see the cloud clip..
impressive in terms of speed it seems, not sure how much faster it will be, vpr renders voxels fast today in small preview and it all depends on how the volumetrics are applied.

I do not know if it was applied on particles or a plane/cloudbox? that would be great if it is done that way, since cloud density is specified by textures on that and not on particle amount/density...however ..would really like to see some infinite procedural cloud layer like ogo taiki has, and apart from what we see with cloud samples today, some more natural phenomena like godrays within that system (like ogo taiki has) or a new true sunlight type with soft shadows and volumetric light based on earth radius to fill the whole sky properly.

I would suspect that might be a problem to solve later on though, today you just canīt survive a volumetric light godray effect passing through the clouds if it is hypervoxels..when the beams hit you..you are already a skeleton after all that rendertime passing by :)

I am glad to see some of this new stuff happening anyway..how far it goes or can go..we have to see, but I am glad the lw team has listened and worked on it finally, I have nagged so much about stuff like this.

and even though I was lured in to upgrading because of the good upgrade offering, these latest sneak peaks of upcoming lw versions makes it even more certain to upgrade tomorrow.

madno
09-28-2015, 06:59 PM
Downloaded the 7z and read this:
LightWave New PBR Texured Area Light with Multiple Importance Sampling.mp4

If it does what I hope for, please LW3DG can I have 2016 yesterday.

DCjr
09-28-2015, 07:09 PM
Yes, a PBR CPU engine is better compared to engines like Arnold or Renderman/RIS. Octane or Redshift are other kind of renderers, with other architecture, and it is hard compare a CPU engine with them.

-Juanjo

Was close to getting arnold, but will you be updating arnold to work with the new Lightwave?

Thanks!

DCjr
09-28-2015, 07:17 PM
I quick note about the clouds fly-through animation. It has been generated as a preview in VPR, and each frame took about 3 seconds, if I recall well.

Lightwave is going to rock! and kick some serious booty!

jwiede
09-28-2015, 07:29 PM
No, we were definitely flying above and not through.

Okay, thanks, that's what I thought, but thought maybe I had missed something. What's there looks really nice, not suggesting otherwise, just not quite what I expected from the title.

I'd love to see how the new engine performs in an actual fly-through, as doing such a thing in LW's current engine is extremely render-costly (and honestly, given that render time cost, feels like it should look better than it does, IMO).

jwiede
09-28-2015, 07:36 PM
would really like to see some infinite procedural cloud layer like ogo taiki has, and apart from what we see with cloud samples today, some more natural phenomena like godrays within that system (like ogo taiki has) or a new true sunlight type with soft shadows and volumetric light based on earth radius to fill the whole sky properly.

Agreed 100%, the latter ("volumetric sunlight"/sky-godrays) is very much needed for dramatic exterior/archviz results, and the former (infinite procedural cloud layer) would also be very useful, if perhaps slightly less important. Honestly, just using Ogo Taiki's feature list as requirements is a pretty decent place to start for natural weather volumetric support.

prometheus
09-28-2015, 08:29 PM
Hey Rob! Hey! Lightwave Development team!! This looks Great.....hopefully it is not only volumetrics but fluid dynamics as well.
Can't wait to see what your keeping under yout sleeves and hood...Promising Work !! Thumbs up!!!

Cold be wise to hold fluid dynamics hopes a bit low.
this isnīt really anything on par with that as showcased here...that is not to say they arenīt doing something like fluids, but the stuff showcased here is not much related with fluids really...or indicating in any way it is.

prometheus
09-28-2015, 08:38 PM
Agreed 100%, the latter ("volumetric sunlight"/sky-godrays) is very much needed for dramatic exterior/archviz results, and the former (infinite procedural cloud layer) would also be very useful, if perhaps slightly less important. Honestly, just using Ogo Taiki's feature list as requirements is a pretty decent place to start for natural weather volumetric support.

yes we have been on the same page regarding these topics..godrays with volumetrics and hypervoxels are not impossible but extremly slow and hard to set up due to no true volumetric light attenuation or radius that adapts to the global sky in a realistic manner..and it is also hard to maintain the dp_sunsky background in a realistic manner.

these are hypervoxels&volumetric lights, but I am not keen on revisiting them or redo such stuff from scratch again, besides..also getting soft shadows from volumetric lights are not doable since the lack of sampling(except spotlight I think)


I hope no one is confusing these sample images with what the thread and discussion is all about originally, I beg you pardon if it confuses it all.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sq1ESuTKqoI/UvZ9TLXMT5I/AAAAAAAACJ8/4-VlmODEHUo/w1024-h433-no/sunsky%2Bsetups%2Bv134.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-b2BFI2PfE9U/UvZ84IU2nXI/AAAAAAAACJs/f7WgXxBtyuU/w1536-h700-no/volumetric%2Bray%2Btest%2Bgodrays%2Bv042.jpg

djwaterman
09-28-2015, 08:48 PM
I hope no one is confusing these sample images with what the thread and discussion is all about originally, I beg you pardon if it confuses it all.


Yes a little confusing. I think we just want to see the new stuff.

jasonwestmas
09-28-2015, 08:48 PM
In response to the new shaders and volumes. . .I'd be more interested to see animated volumetrics (with particles too) but I guess this new stuff could be cool if it rendered quickly.

hdace
09-28-2015, 08:50 PM
Important question for Rob - is there any chance there'll be an open beta for LW2016? Might be a good way to build up some nice images for the official launch
EDIT: And might be an extra-juicy enticement for people to update to 2015, if it allowed them to have early access to the beta when it's ready?

Hey Dan,

I doubt they'd agree to that. Beta testing is part of the bad taste of Core.

--Hal

jeric_synergy
09-28-2015, 09:11 PM
OpenBeta, probably not going to happen. All in all, probably for the best. Look at the ruckus a few released images and anims caused.

People 'round heya, they excitable. Yup.

vonpietro
09-28-2015, 10:09 PM
Very nice to see PBR in lightwave!!

saw this ..
"This will be in 2016 so it will be 295.00 if you are currently running 2015 or 795.00 if you upgrade from "pre" 2015. "

THis is nice to hear as i just upgraded to 2015

anyword on modeling improvements? =)

lightscape
09-28-2015, 11:07 PM
What does the GOAT of hv and fx, Mr. Rid, think about this? :D

m.d.
09-28-2015, 11:20 PM
yeah..thats what I thought,:) ..no not really...
will have to maintain the stamina of using it A lot and as often as I can...when that comes with the next version that is..but then again, I really think many of the volumetric principles of textures and the general workflow might be
very much similar.. and I will make use of that to stay on top :) as well as my eye for tweaking such stuff...I know I got an eye for fractals and that kind of look...but we will have to see, donīt think I will have to start from square one though.

as long as you pass on your knowledge :)

Really though most volumetric systems are quite similar...Turbulence is nearly identical to Houdini's systems right down to the terminology and the algorithms used.....why, Houdini picked the tech up off various Siggraph papers and implemented it.

Not too many companies re-inventing the wheel out there, the heavy theoretical work is being done by the various PhD's and grad students out there, and it's just up to the software vendors to code it in (no trivial task)

I would suspect LW volumetrics to be a modern implementation with LW easy workflow style, and likely fully nodal. With the criticisms that have been heaped on the aging hypervoxels by the users over the years, I'm betting it will be pretty complete, and not lacking in the toolset needed.

This company led the way years ago with a few things......one was the render.

Although it may seem a little presumptuous and far fetched, I have high hopes for this new render engine to be competitive with possibly the likes of Vray and Arnold. Writing it from the ground up opens up a lot of possibilities to implement the very latest techniques (that pretty well everybody has access to)....so it becomes more a matter of who is most efficient at coding these implementations in, and possibly a few proprietary tricks as well.

lightscape
09-29-2015, 12:09 AM
Is this new render engine able to plug into other 3d appz? That would be major cash flow.

ncr100
09-29-2015, 01:11 AM
Wow, looks great. Thanks for sharing - and I am really looking forward to the Blog. A great place to centralize the stream of content / social media sharing that's been ramping up for the last 3+ years.

alexs3d
09-29-2015, 01:40 AM
that looks really amazing, great work guys...

but for me, modeler is much more importent, hope to see improvements on this site, so my upgrade must wait ;)

apist
09-29-2015, 01:45 AM
Wow, looks great..

sami
09-29-2015, 02:35 AM
Hey Rob

Will the new PBR surface engine be exportable to / compatible with apps like Unity or 3DCoat?

just wondering if this is very proprietary LW-render onliy or will help workflow to real time game engines that use PBR...?

thanks! :)

inakito
09-29-2015, 02:37 AM
Looking great :) keep it up!

Netvudu
09-29-2015, 03:48 AM
The new renderer is simply fantastic and itīs going to put Lightwave up there with the best in the industry. If that doesnīt justify an update, I donīt know what will.

drako
09-29-2015, 04:16 AM
WOWWWWW...I want to see more updates in Lightwave. Good News for the new Render Engine but please, please, please we need FLUIDS OUT OF THE BOX. FLUIDS IN LIGHTWAVE CAN GIVE MORE MARKETING TO THE SOFTWARE AND MORE CLIENTS-ARTISTS TO COME.....Come on Rob....Please...Make our dream comes true.

50one
09-29-2015, 04:35 AM
WOWWWWW...I want to see more updates in Lightwave. Good News for the new Render Engine but please, please, please we need FLUIDS OUT OF THE BOX. FLUIDS IN LIGHTWAVE CAN GIVE MORE MARKETING TO THE SOFTWARE AND MORE CLIENTS-ARTISTS TO COME.....Come on Rob....Please...Make our dream comes true.

Yes! Let's put our efforts into competing with Realflow!
Honeslty, a gaseous solution like dynamite would be good, other than that the Open VDB and that's all we need, not a realflow competitor, no need for that.

vbk!!!
09-29-2015, 04:42 AM
The new renderer is simply fantastic and itīs going to put Lightwave up there with the best in the industry. If that doesnīt justify an update, I donīt know what will.

openVDB support.
Better particle system.
Deep render ???
:devil:

Surrealist.
09-29-2015, 04:42 AM
I am fairly certain that these things have been taken into consideration in a big way. We will have to wait and see. But I get the feeling that this 2016 release will be as Rob as described it. A beginning of major things to come. And I think that includes mesh editing - even perhaps animated modeling ala Chrono Sculpt and so on. Into the future. But to what degree now obviously we will have to wait. I get the idea that they have laid the ground work to do a lot of real innovative stuff. And for me that is personally what I have wanted to see from LightWave. I like the idea of possibilities I can not get from other apps, more than I would like to see things that are already in apps I use. Although some of the basics such as painting weights in an integrated app and a few other things I see from integration that I feel are essential.

Andy Webb
09-29-2015, 05:03 AM
This is great stuff, and looks amazing but we are still left with the question of Modeller :rolleyes::)

Netvudu
09-29-2015, 05:07 AM
openVDB support.
Better particle system.
Deep render ???
:devil:

OpenVDB...yes. I agree thatīs a serious need. Iīm sure the Lightwave team wonīt let us down.

Better particle system- I agree, but if weīre getting a new volumetric system right now, wouldnīt it makes sense to have the better particle system in another update? I mean...you first put in place the rendering part, and then the simulation part. Otherwise it gets unrealistic from a resources point of view.

Deep render--mmmm...interesting yes. A real need...doubious. I mean. Deep is a nice feature, IN THEORY, but would you actually use it? Let me explain. My other software is Houdini, which I also use a lot (great combo with LW) and thereīs a strong deep rendering support there. Do you know how many times I use it in actual production...never. Why? because as cool as it is working with one frame, when you start using it on actual render sequences:

1) File size gets HUMONGOUS. Not just big...huge.
2) Unless your system is awesome, the compositing speed slows down to a crawl.

These problems are real even for high-end studios, and itīs accepted this will be less of a problem as hardware gets more powerful. As of today, itīs stil rarely used...donīt trust breakdowns or making ofs. Breakdowns are 50% marketing, 50% truth.

It is way more important to have a modern renderer, where adding deep support is always a possibility at any point

drako
09-29-2015, 05:18 AM
Yes! Let's put our efforts into competing with Realflow!
Honeslty, a gaseous solution like dynamite would be good, other than that the Open VDB and that's all we need, not a realflow competitor, no need for that.

Yes 50one you have right that Dynamite is good but we need something more competitive. I dont mean just like the tech of Realflow or better Houdini. I speak for something just like the tech of Navié Effex 2.60.60 plugin for C4d. I think that LW has to move on, and show a power of effects needed so much in TV-VFX industry. Also we like to see technologies of Lightwave update everytime we buy a new version and not seeing them down and lost.
I speak for Particle System and Hypervoxels technology that is forgotten.

Niko3D
09-29-2015, 05:28 AM
PLEASE!Render PASSES!!!!!!!...

vbk!!!
09-29-2015, 05:50 AM
Netvudu, I am agree with most of you write.

Openvdb is a must have ! Please NT make it good. Just open Maya with Arnold and ... you will see the things you have to avoid ( bad density translation, no opengl of the density, bad velocity mapping ... )

The particle system need a reboot. Now i understand if NT focus on the renderer first.

Deep render is used in the studio I work in quite often for high end motion design (made with Houdini). Sure its huge. Sure its slow. But the result is really amazing. The fact deep render is a highend feature doesn't have to be a reason to not implement it. Theses kind of features will make the new LW render back to the top !

mummyman
09-29-2015, 06:03 AM
PLEASE!Render PASSES!!!!!!!...

Yes! Agreed. But perhaps one that works well with exrTrader/shadermeister? I'm greedy possibly

OFF
09-29-2015, 06:07 AM
Netvudu, I am agree with most of you write.

Openvdb is a must have ! Please NT make it good. Just open Maya with Arnold and ... you will see the things you have to avoid ( bad density translation, no opengl of the density, bad velocity mapping ... )

The particle system need a reboot. Now i understand if NT focus on the renderer first.

Deep render is used in the studio I work in quite often for high end motion design (made with Houdini). Sure its huge. Sure its slow. But the result is really amazing. The fact deep render is a highend feature doesn't have to be a reason to not implement it. Theses kind of features will make the new LW render back to the top !
Yep.
Over the years of using LW I learned to find solutions practically in any situation - except for rendering animations with GI.
And not always possible to export the lw scene in the program where it would be possible to make it a quality rendering.
But if you have a good rendering, you can create your animated content outside lw, where it is more convenient to you, and then move it to render into LW.
So - all right, render engine is the most important thing.

Netvudu
09-29-2015, 06:22 AM
Netvudu, I am agree with most of you write.

Openvdb is a must have ! Please NT make it good. Just open Maya with Arnold and ... you will see the things you have to avoid ( bad density translation, no opengl of the density, bad velocity mapping ... )

The particle system need a reboot. Now i understand if NT focus on the renderer first.

Deep render is used in the studio I work in quite often for high end motion design (made with Houdini). Sure its huge. Sure its slow. But the result is really amazing. The fact deep render is a highend feature doesn't have to be a reason to not implement it. Theses kind of features will make the new LW render back to the top !

Itīs funny. Usually any implementation of anything done in Maya...is wrong for the first four versions. Way to go Autodesk :thumbsup: :D

I find very interesting your experience with deep rendering. What are the most common uses youīre getting from it? Compositing volumes, proper DOF, or what?

vbk!!!
09-29-2015, 06:57 AM
deep render is used for DOF mostly ( with nuke and Bokeh) and some volume comp aswell but its rare. Deep file's size depends on how much elements you render in your image. That's why the studio use it for motion design where there are a lot of empty spaces. Then the deep files are not that huge and the comp is still managable. We made a car commercial with deep too. All layout, car model and fx were render using deep but we reach the limit of what can handle the network !
At last, we notice big difference between Arnold and Mantra to render deep files. Arnold take way more time to render it and the files sizes are really bigger for the same compression algo.

About maya and vdb. The studio decide to render a commerical with maya and Arnold and it's was a pain :bangwall:. Because of the way maya manage Openvdb and Alembic with very high rez meshes (lost of data) :bangwall::bangwall:.
Now about Arnold, its like a modern car with all the options. When it works its amazing but when it don't ... it's tricky to find what wrong and fix it. For that, I trust NT to let us get hands in the dirt with the new engine : that's what I like in LW render and Mantra :D

marchermitte
09-29-2015, 07:42 AM
Good move Newtek, It looks really good! I'm also using Modo and the new physical shading model does look good as well, without a huge hit on rendertime in genral. In some case, when It does increase rendertime drastically, I can use physical shading only for what needs It and switch to traditional or energy conserving material ONLY for specific surfaces. (for instance use fake specular instead of real blurry reflections). For Lightwave, it would be a good idea to keep the "old" rendering engine as well, as in some case It could still be a life saver.

magiclight
09-29-2015, 07:45 AM
Don't worry about that, lots of old customers cannot live without the old renderer so they will keep it in there for sure.

alexoctagon2009
09-29-2015, 08:32 AM
Just seen this, really pleased, this was top of my list for what to do with Lightwave.

What would be great is to now see some examples of say, archi interiors to show off the GI and shading improvements, and then some glass still life's to show off the improved rays and caustics :)

mummyman
09-29-2015, 08:47 AM
Hope the viewports don't get so overcrowded with "render engines" VPR 1.0 and VPR 2.0, etc? Multiple Render Engines??? They have to keep the old and new

raw-m
09-29-2015, 10:30 AM
Just to play Devils Advocate - do they need to keep the old? Can't they now throw out a lot of old stuff knowing that LW2015 is still in people's accounts if they need to go back?

ernpchan
09-29-2015, 10:36 AM
Just to play Devils Advocate - do they need to keep the old? Can't they now throw out a lot of old stuff knowing that LW2015 is still in people's accounts if they need to go back?

Playing other Devil's Advocate - brand new users would only be getting 2016 so loading up any old demo content probably wouldn't work if they strip out the old.

allabulle
09-29-2015, 10:36 AM
Just to play Devils Advocate - do they need to keep the old? Can't they now throw out a lot of old stuff knowing that LW2015 is still in people's accounts if they need to go back?

I'd be a bit disappointed if I could animate with new tools and speeds and then not being able to render NPR sequences or stills (assuming the new renderer only deals with PBR and it hasn't NPR capabilities, of course.) Just an example of why keeping the old renderer around would be wise. Besides the obvious situation of opening not-so-old scenes, I mean, which could be debatable, I agree.

hrgiger
09-29-2015, 10:50 AM
So in that scenario, save out a point cache of the animation, open in lw 2015 and render there. I say break everything you have to in the name of progress.

cove
09-29-2015, 10:50 AM
Hi Mr Powers.
Its great that you now think it the right time to release information about LW2016.
What you have said and shown so far looks great and looking forward to more info
in the weeks to come.
Is it possible for you to say something regarding Dynamic fluids and fire&smoke dynamics.
A lot of amatuer users like me love the special effects side of Lightwave and the above mentioned
Features are what we would like to see in the next release. So could you confirm that Liquids etc
will be part of the next realease or maybe these features are still in developement.
Thanks for any info you can provide. cove

allabulle
09-29-2015, 11:04 AM
So in that scenario, save out a point cache of the animation, open in lw 2015 and render there. I say break everything you have to in the name of progress.

I was thinking of new users without that option. I'd gladly get rid of what's needed in order to advance with the new and better. Just carefully and thoroughly pick what's really not needed anymore or what really blocks the way forward.

Snosrap
09-29-2015, 11:15 AM
I was thinking of new users without that option. I'd gladly get rid of what's needed in order to advance with the new and better. Just carefully and thoroughly pick what's really not needed anymore or what really blocks the way forward. If "under the hood" changes have not been to significant why not just have it as another option just like 3rd party renderers have it today?
130030

m.d.
09-29-2015, 11:24 AM
No....keep the old render I'm there.

It makes no difference to the user.....Houdini has 3 engines built in and I've never heard anyone complain about too many options. All 3 engines are actively developed.

I have kray, fprime, octane installed within lightwave and it sure doesn't hurt anything.

There is a call for a PBR based render, and then there is times when you don't want it, it's always good to have a time proven render engine in your back pocket. I would also continue developing the old render at the same times for all the NPR render situations, albeit with less development resources compared to the newer engine

Not meaning to be rude, but this is actually a ridiculous idea.....

Ever had to go back to clothFX? Doesn't bullet solve all dynamics?

raw-m
09-29-2015, 11:29 AM
I agree about keeping the render engine but I can't imagine that old HVs setting will translate particular well - cut out the old system?

Surrealist.
09-29-2015, 11:34 AM
Yeah having multiple engine options is nice and also fairly usual across apps. I do find myself jumping around within one app to different render solutions for various reasons.

m.d.
09-29-2015, 11:37 AM
Edit:in response to HV

Possibly....I see the logic there, short term I would keep it in as it also doesn't hurt anything.

Doesn't mean it has to be compatible with the new engine, and it can be deprecated slowly as it has had almost zero development lately anyway.

cresshead
09-29-2015, 11:47 AM
new renderer for Lightwave:

does this also imply-:

1.new shading system - drop the old surface editor? for a new from the ground up nodal shading system that can edit more than 1 surface at a time for example?
2. bucket renderer?
3.micropoly displacements?

4. does new renderer imply it's part of lightwave or it's now a plugin and maybe available for other DDC apps also? (like octane/vray etc)
5. does this new renderer cover everything to old renderer does OR it's is very specific at some new capabilities so we still use the old renderer too?

...has VPR changed too?

6. if the new renderer is bucket type will it divide down the bucket size as the render nears completion to keep the threads all busy?
7.does the new render have any GPU options?
8. new renderer mean a new robust pass system also?

pretty pics but begs more questions than answers right now!

robertoortiz
09-29-2015, 11:50 AM
Great work to the LW devs. I am looking forward to future updates.

-R

vipvip242
09-29-2015, 12:30 PM
Really nice ! i hope the VPR previews of these volumetric renderings will be fast and coherent with the final F9 ones. Of course, i imagine a substantial hypervoxels evolution or remplacement with this new engine, and as already mentionned, a new particle system too ! Anyhope to see a fluid simulation coming with that ?

Julez4001
09-29-2015, 12:34 PM
Yes 50one you have right that Dynamite is good but we need something more competitive. I dont mean just like the tech of Realflow or better Houdini. I speak for something just like the tech of Navié Effex 2.60.60 plugin for C4d. I think that LW has to move on, and show a power of effects needed so much in TV-VFX industry. Also we like to see technologies of Lightwave update everytime we buy a new version and not seeing them down and lost.
I speak for Particle System and Hypervoxels technology that is forgotten.

Like he said, just get realflow.
If we don't have any tools to shade the particles stuff then its a no-show.
LW definitely should concentrate on render engine and latest render standards.

Not saying its not important but step-to-step development pattern.
Even as you've stated, Cinema4d solution is a plugin.

prometheus
09-29-2015, 12:50 PM
No....keep the old render I'm there.

It makes no difference to the user.....Houdini has 3 engines built in and I've never heard anyone complain about too many options. All 3 engines are actively developed.

I have kray, fprime, octane installed within lightwave and it sure doesn't hurt anything.



There is a call for a PBR based render, and then there is times when you don't want it, it's always good to have a time proven render engine in your back pocket. I would also continue developing the old render at the same times for all the NPR render situations, albeit with less development resources compared to the newer engine

Not meaning to be rude, but this is actually a ridiculous idea.....

Ever had to go back to clothFX? Doesn't bullet solve all dynamics?

Regarding clothfx..no I think clothfx has some uses for better cloth sometimes, and you can also use it smart with scanning of other items, as well as editing mesh in layout..that you canīt do with bullet.

prometheus
09-29-2015, 12:56 PM
Yes a little confusing. I think we just want to see the new stuff.

Good to hear your opinion about that, I will stay out of posting image references from the hypervoxels system to avoid confusions for others..at least in this thread.

Just upgraded now to 2015.3 and I am downloading right now.

questions t analyze with the new volumetrics might be...
the render speed of the new volumetrics..also when camera is inside a cloud and how efficient it handles that.
the type of color shading (blackbody rayleigh) like dynamite would b nice.
and what about blending between particles in the new volumetric system, hypervoxels had some issues with that, dynamite did it well though slow.
I can see that it looks like the new volumetrics will adapt well for geometric shapes it seems, interesting to see if they use same principles as modo has for volumetric item or something else..what will be important to use that method with good results, that is a way to adapt the texture noise around the normals of an object, that is probably the tricky part if you aim for working with geometry sculpted shapes and turn to cloud looking shapes, if the texture only cuts globally in to the volumetrics..it will not look good, but all that remains to wait for and see what they say in their upcoming blogs etc.

jwiede
09-29-2015, 01:04 PM
What would be great is to now see some examples of say, archi interiors to show off the GI and shading improvements, and then some glass still life's to show off the improved rays and caustics :)

Yeah, examples demonstrating how extensively caustics have been improved in the new engine would also be very welcome!

robertoortiz
09-29-2015, 01:08 PM
Posted this on the CGSociety facebook page...
https://www.facebook.com/cgsociety?fref=ts
EDIT
My only request is that in a future release
NPR Rendering also get some love.
This is after all my bread and butter.

Also for NPR it would be cool to get:
* Solid Surface shader controls
* Illustrator like controls for Line and Gradients.
* True color representation of CYMK colors

And the ability to export NPR rendering into vector images (SVG, AI, PDF )
would be something very coo.

jwiede
09-29-2015, 01:21 PM
So - all right, render engine is the most important thing.

I'm hoping LW3DG has learned enough from the past to avoid repeating the "render engine first and foremost" mistake again.

While the render engine is important, so are the infrastructure, toolset and environment which "lead up to it". LW's history has already shown focusing strongly on the render engine at the expense of infrastructure or other feature areas causes major problems in the long run. LW can't afford to go down that path again. The infrastructure (particularly w.r.t. communication between systems/features) is at least as important as the render engine system, likely more so.

prometheus
09-29-2015, 01:27 PM
I'm hoping LW3DG has learned enough from the past to avoid repeating the "render engine first and foremost" mistake again.

While the render engine is important, so are the infrastructure, toolset and environment which "lead up to it". LW's history has already shown focusing strongly on the render engine at the expense of infrastructure or other feature areas causes major problems in the long run. LW can't afford to go down that path again. The infrastructure (particularly w.r.t. communication between systems/features) is at least as important as the render engine system, likely more so.

+1

jwiede
09-29-2015, 01:32 PM
8. new renderer mean a new robust pass system also?

Yeah, this is another important feature area, particularly given Janus' "retirement". Hopefully the new render engine includes a new render pass system built into it already, but if not, some facility for render pass / per-render override management is needed ASAP, as well as render/pass queueing support.


Hmm, is the new LW render engine in any way related to or derived from the new Kray technology? Suspect not, given Rob's phrasing, but seemed worth asking. Nothing wrong if it is, either, IMO -- I just wondered if the engines were at all "related"?

mummyman
09-29-2015, 01:46 PM
Regarding clothfx..no I think clothfx has some uses for better cloth sometimes, and you can also use it smart with scanning of other items, as well as editing mesh in layout..that you canīt do with bullet.

Yes, Agreed. I use an old method "trick???" of scanning the mdd cloth / vertex, then add it back to the low rez model via the ClothFX menu. Then attach a high rez model and MetaLink it. Hope that whole workaround thing stays! It's an amazing way to put detail on higher resolution models, but calculating the low resolution mesh. An old tutorial from Proton showed this method.

m.d.
09-29-2015, 02:18 PM
Regarding clothfx..no I think clothfx has some uses for better cloth sometimes, and you can also use it smart with scanning of other items, as well as editing mesh in layout..that you canīt do with bullet.

Exactly....doesn't hurt to still have it there if you need it


Everybody saying "just get realflow".....

While I agree Newtek doesn't have the resources to compete with realflow, realize that to legally use Realflow for commercial purposes is over $2200 USD. Bottom line.
The $85 educational license is not to be used commercially.

That leaves a hole for freelancers who occasionally use fluids, but cannot justify $2200. For that scenario Houdini indie is the way to go, provided your company gross does not exceed 100k USD

If you are doing serious fluids, it is probably worth it to pay the full amount, but that hardly negates the benefit of having a 'legal' fluid solution for casual fluid jobs. Not to mention integrated and simple.


Realistically we are not going to get it from Newtek anytime soon.....but it would be great to have a simple fluid sim system integrated in Lightwave, for those jobs not needing the quality of a Houdini or realflow sim.
Best we can hope for is a plugin developer to step up to the plate

MAUROCOR
09-29-2015, 02:54 PM
Hey, I didnīt see that one!

That looks great, really! Congrats Bob, Lino and LW team!
Maybe we can expect some new Hair/Fur/Feathers system too in the next future?

I canīt wait to see more renders in this new sistem!

Cheers, guys!:beerchug:

motivalex
09-29-2015, 03:24 PM
Good stuff. Looking forward to more reveals. :)

Ryan Roye
09-29-2015, 03:36 PM
While I agree Newtek doesn't have the resources to compete with realflow, realize that to legally use Realflow for commercial purposes is over $2200 USD. Bottom line.
The $85 educational license is not to be used commercially.

They do offer a $700 monthly rental option which one could pick up solely for a specific project. Any commercial project that asks for fluids is going to be a costly proposition, and I don't see it being unreasonable to tack on a flat fee of $1000 plus the hours required to get it done.

I do agree that Realflow is a solution that prices itself out of most hobbyist or low budget productions, if it isn't well funded forget it! My interpretation of Realflow's place in the big picture lies with its app interchange workflows (between most major applications including LW), and low learning curve.

Luc_Feri
09-29-2015, 03:48 PM
Hey, I didnīt see that one!

That looks great, really! Congrats Bob, Lino and LW team!
Maybe we can expect some new Hair/Fur/Feathers system too in the next future?

I canīt wait to see more renders in this new sistem!

Cheers, guys!:beerchug:


You can do feathers with the current system of fiberfx, there is a way!! ;)

But yes a supreme hair and fur FFX 2.0 system would be amazing

MAUROCOR
09-29-2015, 05:15 PM
You can do feathers with the current system of fiberfx, there is a way!! ;)

But yes a supreme hair and fur FFX 2.0 system would be amazing

I was asking about a new system. A really good one. ;)

Luc_Feri
09-29-2015, 05:34 PM
I was asking about a new system. A really good one. ;)

Ha ha for sure mate, this is a big thing I would love to see too.

jeric_synergy
09-29-2015, 05:39 PM
All you guys asking for the moon, and three-dozen render engines: here's the deal, each native renderer DOES cost, in dev time. Dev resources are not free.

For me, the current render engine is MORE than adequate, but my needs are exceedingly low. OTOH, Octane exists.

I'd much rather see development of the central infrastructure than 'painting the lily' of the already quite good renderer. There's so many neglected "low hanging fruit" items, versus the difficult and knowledge intensive renderer tweeks.

ernpchan
09-29-2015, 06:12 PM
Kindly post a hirez version of this so I can use it as my desktop. :D

130034

Chris S. (Fez)
09-29-2015, 06:42 PM
I'd much rather see development of the central infrastructure than 'painting the lily' of the already quite good renderer.

Agreed.

jwiede
09-29-2015, 06:46 PM
Kindly post a hirez version of this so I can use it as my desktop. :D

130034

I'd love to see really high-res versions of all the stills, like 4K2K/5K2K or better.

OjN
09-29-2015, 06:54 PM
Great news! that is something really nice... specially for me:)
Like the others, I hope to see early some changes in the central infrastructure.

Snosrap
09-29-2015, 07:41 PM
All you guys asking for the moon, and three-dozen render engines: here's the deal, each native renderer DOES cost, in dev time. Dev resources are not free.

For me, the current render engine is MORE than adequate, but my needs are exceedingly low. OTOH, Octane exists.

I'd much rather see development of the central infrastructure than 'painting the lily' of the already quite good renderer. There's so many neglected "low hanging fruit" items, versus the difficult and knowledge intensive renderer tweeks. jeric, you do realize that the developers have areas of expertise - right? It takes an enormous amount of time to develop all the various components of an application the size of LW. If you look at rendering in 2015 you will see very little in the way of progress - importance sampling and various edge rendering - most likely because Mark was spending most his effort on the new render engine. That's his area of expertise - not modeling etc.. So while you are correct it does take resources to develop a render engine, it's not necessarily taking anything away from the rest of LW's development. The last thing one would want in a all round good DCC package is to not have a rendering guru on staff. :)

Iaian7
09-29-2015, 08:56 PM
The last thing one would want in a all round good DCC package is to not have a rendering guru on staff. :)

Indeed!

While I can understand concern regarding why Newtek has seemingly chosen to focus on a new render engine (especially since I find the current engine to be exceptionally usable in many cases), it's probably unfair to say it's the only thing they've focused on. There are more announcements to come. I mean, don't get your hopes up, I'm sure the renderer is the primary change in 2016, but if we take it slow, the bigger picture will hopefully be revealed.

Secondly, I've never had usable results with Lightwave's current GI in animated situations, especially with animated luminous geometry. Animation caching ignores shader value keyframes/expressions entirely, last time I tried it. Granted, I quit upgrading at 11.6, but I'd say that, in general, the LW engine has been showing its age for a long time. Not counting nodes...Lightwave has been vastly more capable at advanced shading systems than Cinema 4D for so long, it's just hilarious (it's usually pretty easy to mock C4D's shader system till you start animating effects with live mesh creation and...oh yeah...nothing like that is possible in Lightwave...well darn).

And now I've gone completely off topic. Apologies. I'm pretty excited about a new render engine in Lightwave. It might not have been what I'd have prioritised either, but hopefully it's a good move for standardisation in material creation across multiple platforms. I just built a node-based semi-PBR setup the other week so I could correctly preview Unity 3D textures in Lightwave, hopefully this makes things easier! :) Strengthening usability in a studio pipeline is probably a wise move. And who knows, maybe the new engine includes things like per-light render passes to allow for post-process relighting (oh for Pete's sake, I promised myself I wouldn't speculate...).

HarverdGrad
09-29-2015, 09:05 PM
For me, the current render engine is MORE than adequate, but my needs are exceedingly low. OTOH, Octane exists.
I'd much rather see development of the central infrastructure than 'painting the lily' of the already quite good renderer. There's so many neglected "low hanging fruit" items, versus the difficult and knowledge intensive renderer tweeks.

Great post, I think you're right :thumbsup:

m.d.
09-29-2015, 10:26 PM
They do offer a $700 monthly rental option which one could pick up solely for a specific project. Any commercial project that asks for fluids is going to be a costly proposition, and I don't see it being unreasonable to tack on a flat fee of $1000 plus the hours required to get it done.

I do agree that Realflow is a solution that prices itself out of most hobbyist or low budget productions, if it isn't well funded forget it! My interpretation of Realflow's place in the big picture lies with its app interchange workflows (between most major applications including LW), and low learning curve.

ya been there done that with realflow for 1 job....although I remember the rental being cheaper??

I am more thinking motion graphics or small VFX, when a director asks for a small splash here and there etc.....that's where even the monthly price of realflow is a bit much...more then I could charge for the job in some cases.

All sorts of different budgets....I just finished $10-$12k of medical vfx for a $300k documentary....gave the producer a deal(good friend) for about 1.5 to 2 minutes of animation....probably 10 days render.

On a hollywood scale that would probably be close to 1/8th- 1/10th the normal charge. For some of these jobs, some simple fluids would be nice...

jeric_synergy
09-29-2015, 10:49 PM
jeric, you do realize that the developers have areas of expertise - right?
I realize that devs are not completely fungible (luv that word), but I wanted to address some of the more hysterical posters who are plumping for support of 4 or more render engines. Call me crazy, but that seems excessive.

And I do remain baffled by how some well-known and widely agreed shortcomings that COULD be addressed with scripting or basic plugin (C/C++) writing, by the doodz who do it all week long, remain un-addressed. EG, the plugin that Rebel Hill whippped up in literally ten minutes to address an Instancing issue (I disremember the specifics).

Besides Rob talking to us once a month, the other thing LW3dG could do to calm the savage user base is maintain a list of simple Low Hanging Fruit, addressable in <30minutes, and shoot out one script a week from that list.

djwaterman
09-29-2015, 10:59 PM
"Starting this week we will launch a new blog sharing more details on this and other Lightwave developments."

I have to assume this will begin as soon as the current deal ends. I'm hoping to see something real soon, just so so curious what you have to show us.

jwiede
09-29-2015, 11:22 PM
"Starting this week we will launch a new blog sharing more details on this and other Lightwave developments."

I have to assume this will begin as soon as the current deal ends. I'm hoping to see something real soon, just so so curious what you have to show us.

Hopefully they'll post info about the blog's URL in the Announcements section when they open it.

tonyrizo2003
09-30-2015, 12:17 AM
Thanks Rob, looking forward to seeing all the new stuff you guys are making.

themonster
09-30-2015, 12:27 AM
Very nice Lightwave dev team and Rob!!!!

This is what I was talking about! communication with your users!
:) we are happy now! ................

keep us informed of the latest LW developments!

jwiede
09-30-2015, 12:30 AM
Lightwave has been vastly more capable at advanced shading systems than Cinema 4D for so long, it's just hilarious

Unfortunately, in just about every other aspect of render handling and render job management, C4D makes LW look hilarious. Hopefully, LW2016 will begin to address some of those issues.

Tobian
09-30-2015, 07:42 AM
I think it's probably unrealistic to expect them to keep the old render engine around for compatibility for a number of reasons.

VPR and F9 are 2 totally different render engines, and vpr has had a lot of issues emulating f9, and it sucks up a lot of work to keep both in parity. Add to this the fact they keep classic around, but it doesn't support a lot of the modern features (such as advanced node shaders and instances) shows part of the problem.

To to a fully featured PBR system, you'd need to rework a lot of things: The lighting system; the radiosity engine; the shaders. Those are 3 areas, where beyond basic scale, positioning and colour etc, much fails to translate across when you move between engines, because the concepts are too different. Octane for example, uses it's own lights, it's own shader design and camera/radiosity engine settings. You can create emulations and approximations within LW, but ultimately they are only there to give you a vague idea in openGL, some concepts simply do not translate.

So everything you work on with the new system would have to be back-translated and emulated in the old system? That sounds to me like a huge waste of resources! It would also create some nasty complexity.. such as if materials, lights and radiosity settings etc would all have to have 2 copies stored within the same object/scene. one for the old system, and one for the new system (this is how all other external renderers work) native materials, and native old materials and octane materials and kray materials, and native lights, and native old lights, and octane lights and kray lights etc...

Likewise new features such as the new volumetrics will simply not work at all with 'perspective' or 'vpr', much as they will not work with 'classic' (as instances do not now). the best option will be to just translate as cleanly as possible old scenes to new scenes, and then fix the stuff which does not work, much as we now have to do when dealing with LW 8 scenes/presets or when going from pre LW10 colourspace to sRGB, some concepts just do not translate and you have to throw away the old stuff and start again.

jasonwestmas
09-30-2015, 07:54 AM
So in that scenario, save out a point cache of the animation, open in lw 2015 and render there. I say break everything you have to in the name of progress.

Yeah I'd say just keep 2015 around for rendering. It makes no sense to clutter things up in future version of lightwave with old tech.

jeric_synergy
09-30-2015, 08:22 AM
Unfortunately, in just about every other aspect of render handling and render job management, C4D makes LW look hilarious. Hopefully, LW2016 will begin to address some of those issues.
If you want to REALLY cry and then go get rage-drunk, examine the new-ish "Take" system in C4D. But don't do it next to a fragile thing you want to keep, 'cuz somethin' is going to get busted.

Less hyperbolically (?), it's an incredible feature that allows you to set up a variety of parameters, access them, retain them, and use them in various renders of a given Scene (or c4d equivalent). --Oooops, I was meaning to send an email to Rob precisely suggesting he take a hard look at it, but couldn't find his eaddress. Hey, Rob? (the above).

kfinla
09-30-2015, 09:44 AM
I'm hoping that if "Hydra" is now a part of mainline LW2016, and it has seen a bunch of advancement since chronosculpt 1.0, that deformation performance has seen a massive improvement - 400% :). Animating multiple characters in LW has a been a lingering issue for the last decade. I'd rather see that than rendering personally. Though I am happy to see the long neglected Hyper-voxel get some love. Faster deformation opens a lot of doors in LW that would be pretty painful to walk through at the moment .. ie. muscle deformation

Iaian7
09-30-2015, 11:30 AM
Unfortunately, in just about every other aspect of render handling and render job management, C4D makes LW look hilarious. Hopefully, LW2016 will begin to address some of those issues.

Oh absolutely. Even network rendering in Bryce 15 years ago makes Lightwave look hilarious (if we're going with the "inconceivably pathetic and downright awful" definition of "hilarious").

jeric_synergy
09-30-2015, 11:57 AM
Oh absolutely. Even network rendering in Bryce 15 years ago....
Ouch.

robertoortiz
09-30-2015, 12:12 PM
Ok guys...
lets keep the thread positive.

To help and encourage the developers in have some question to you guys.
Starting from scratch
* How would you guys to Pass Control?
* How would you guys do Render Management?
* How would you assign materials more efficiently in a scene? How would you group objects?
* How would you guys improve the implementation of Global Illumination ?
* How would you guys improve the implementation of the volumetric engine?

Anyway great work to the devs!

sadkkf
09-30-2015, 12:19 PM
jeric, you do realize that the developers have areas of expertise - right? It takes an enormous amount of time to develop all the various components of an application the size of LW. If you look at rendering in 2015 you will see very little in the way of progress - importance sampling and various edge rendering - most likely because Mark was spending most his effort on the new render engine. That's his area of expertise - not modeling etc.. So while you are correct it does take resources to develop a render engine, it's not necessarily taking anything away from the rest of LW's development. The last thing one would want in a all round good DCC package is to not have a rendering guru on staff. :)

Well said! :thumbsup:

jwiede
09-30-2015, 01:10 PM
If you want to REALLY cry and then go get rage-drunk, examine the new-ish "Take" system in C4D. But don't do it next to a fragile thing you want to keep, 'cuz somethin' is going to get busted.

Less hyperbolically (?), it's an incredible feature that allows you to set up a variety of parameters, access them, retain them, and use them in various renders of a given Scene (or c4d equivalent). --Oooops, I was meaning to send an email to Rob precisely suggesting he take a hard look at it, but couldn't find his eaddress. Hey, Rob? (the above).

I'm a C4D R17 Studio licenseholder, I know what you mean (http://www.c4dcafe.com/ipb/forums/topic/89241-maxon-announces-r17/?page=7#comment-605261). The new C4D render takes/overrides/tokens system is incredibly flexible, yet very easy to use, and also highly accessible/extensible for third-party devs. That was kind of my point, most of these LW folks disrespecting and dismissing C4D render tech seem to be doing so out of ignorance -- there are (too) many aspects of renderer and render job mgmt. where C4D absolutely destroys LW in depth of functionality while retaining excellent, intuitive ease of use.

jwiede
09-30-2015, 01:14 PM
Ok guys...
lets keep the thread positive.

To help and encourage the developers in have some question to you guys.
Starting from scratch
* How would you guys to Pass Control?
* How would you guys do Render Management?
* How would you assign materials more efficiently in a scene? How would you group objects?
* How would you guys improve the implementation of Global Illumination ?
* How would you guys improve the implementation of the volumetric engine?

:hijack: :twak:

robertoortiz
09-30-2015, 01:16 PM
retaining excellent, intuitive ease of use.
that is one thing that LW should NOT lose sight of.
EASE OF USE.
We already have Maya and Houdini for those who like getting dirty ALL the time.

jeric_synergy
09-30-2015, 03:08 PM
We already have Maya and Houdini for those who like getting dirty ALL the time.
And not in the good way. ;)

bobakabob
09-30-2015, 03:24 PM
I'm a C4D R17 Studio licenseholder, I know what you mean (http://www.c4dcafe.com/ipb/forums/topic/89241-maxon-announces-r17/?page=7#comment-605261). The new C4D render takes/overrides/tokens system is incredibly flexible, yet very easy to use, and also highly accessible/extensible for third-party devs. That was kind of my point, most of these LW folks disrespecting and dismissing C4D render tech seem to be doing so out of ignorance -- there are (too) many aspects of renderer and render job mgmt. where C4D absolutely destroys LW in depth of functionality while retaining excellent, intuitive ease of use.

It would be nice to see some specific examples, though probably not appropriate for a LW forum. Call me a Luddite but in the end this is all very subjective. If c4d rendering tech is so mind blowing what do you get out of LW? Buttons and parameters are all well and good but do the native Maxon renders really transcend that peculiar artificial plasticky look of old c4d has been known for? On the website there is a suggestion that the alternate pbr renders might not be appropriate for tight deadlines. Perhaps that's why they're broadcasting how open the app is to 3rd party renderers. I know Mental Ray well and all the extra tech and controls really don't make it any better than Lightwave regarding economy, quality not to mention creativity. The forthcoming LW rendering developments look very exciting... Whereas c4d looks increasingly incredibly expensive.

jeric_synergy
09-30-2015, 03:38 PM
It would be nice to see some specific examples, though probably not appropriate for a LW forum. (edited for brevity)
I'll confine myself to saying, when I saw it demo'd, albeit in passing, I immediately lusted after it. And it's a versioning and render layer manager, not a renderer per se. Any renderer that works with C4D will work with it.

Here's an overview-- I recommend turning off the music immediately, it adds nothing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2uWlLYY_dc

Keeping track of versioned Scene files in LW would be a thing of the past.

DogBoy
09-30-2015, 03:48 PM
Wow, i like those Takes. I can see why you'd want something like that for LW.

m.d.
09-30-2015, 03:51 PM
I think it's probably unrealistic to expect them to keep the old render engine around for compatibility for a number of reasons.

VPR and F9 are 2 totally different render engines, and vpr has had a lot of issues emulating f9, and it sucks up a lot of work to keep both in parity. Add to this the fact they keep classic around, but it doesn't support a lot of the modern features (such as advanced node shaders and instances) shows part of the problem.

To to a fully featured PBR system, you'd need to rework a lot of things: The lighting system; the radiosity engine; the shaders. Those are 3 areas, where beyond basic scale, positioning and colour etc, much fails to translate across when you move between engines, because the concepts are too different. Octane for example, uses it's own lights, it's own shader design and camera/radiosity engine settings. You can create emulations and approximations within LW, but ultimately they are only there to give you a vague idea in openGL, some concepts simply do not translate.

So everything you work on with the new system would have to be back-translated and emulated in the old system? That sounds to me like a huge waste of resources! It would also create some nasty complexity.. such as if materials, lights and radiosity settings etc would all have to have 2 copies stored within the same object/scene. one for the old system, and one for the new system (this is how all other external renderers work) native materials, and native old materials and octane materials and kray materials, and native lights, and native old lights, and octane lights and kray lights etc...

Likewise new features such as the new volumetrics will simply not work at all with 'perspective' or 'vpr', much as they will not work with 'classic' (as instances do not now). the best option will be to just translate as cleanly as possible old scenes to new scenes, and then fix the stuff which does not work, much as we now have to do when dealing with LW 8 scenes/presets or when going from pre LW10 colourspace to sRGB, some concepts just do not translate and you have to throw away the old stuff and start again.

who says the new render engine has to be backwards compatible?

A PBR render and old lightwave will never be able to emulate....so no need to waste resources trying....everything is completely different

octane is totally independent....and completely without backwards compatibility, all the integration was written by 1 guy, who also did integration of 2 other render engines. It did not require the removal of the current render

The entire shading system will already have to be re-written, and radiosity will be a foreign concept.....octane does not have radiosity settings in it's unbiased engines, just samples and bounces....radiosity is not a separate system

To be perfectly realistic, we have a proven render engine, that people are talking about retiring after seeing a dozen screenshots of some new rendering tech?

m.d.
09-30-2015, 04:05 PM
I realize that devs are not completely fungible (luv that word), but I wanted to address some of the more hysterical posters who are plumping for support of 4 or more render engines. Call me crazy, but that seems excessive.


Lightwave is only currently supporting 1 render engine, and developing another....

All other render support is done by the authors of the render, or the plugin developers behind them. There are already octane, kray, fprime, kray 3 (coming soon with an entirely different shading system), arnold, and renderman(in progress I believe)

Thats 6 completely seperate render engines besides native lightwave....quite a few of them with completely different shading systems.....and not a lot the LW devs had to do to support them (besides a more open SDK which is the stated goal of LW)

Does this seem excessive....which ones would you like to see unsupported? The only thing we could do to stop development of these is either legal action or close the SDK...

Not sure how more options hurts LW development.....

Iaian7
09-30-2015, 04:09 PM
The new C4D render takes/overrides/tokens system is incredibly flexible, yet very easy to use, and also highly accessible/extensible for third-party devs. That was kind of my point, most of these LW folks disrespecting and dismissing C4D render tech seem to be doing so out of ignorance -- there are (too) many aspects of renderer and render job mgmt. where C4D absolutely destroys LW in depth of functionality while retaining excellent, intuitive ease of use.

That's fantastic! I do fear my hurried dismissal of C4D's surfacing methods (only recently supporting multiple reflections in the same surface, something Lightwave has had exceptionally easy support for via nodes ever since 9.6) skipped over all of the really great features included in the C4D render engine itself, a far broader topic which I did not mean to disrespect. :)

jeric_synergy
09-30-2015, 04:20 PM
All other render support is done by the authors of the render, or the plugin developers behind them.
If independent coders don't incur any resource cost on LW3dG, they are free to knock themselves out.

adk
09-30-2015, 05:34 PM
Thanks jwiede and jeric for those C4D bits. When Rob said the planning and foundation changes they've been working on set us up for the next however many years I would hope that this sort of functionality would be right up there. Multiple scenes and objects per take seems archaic in comparison.

m.d.
09-30-2015, 05:42 PM
If independent coders don't incur any resource cost on LW3dG, they are free to knock themselves out.

well they did change the FiberFX sdk for octane.....but I guess we will live with that.
Lino also has wasted hours doing octane tutorials that may have been better spent on lightwave development :)

SDK and file interchange support are similar issue's.....why bother developing alembic interchange? Why bother with FBX or OBJ?

Because, like external renders, there is a huge demand.

We can box ourselves in like hermits, or open ourselves up to the rest of the 3d ecosystem.....that is why Rob has stated a lot about opening the SDK and the file interchange support.

So a lot of development resources are already being spent opening up the SDK....whether for a render, or for LWCAD nurbs surfaces being renderable.... part of the business

It's either that or rely on LW to provide everything

jwiede
09-30-2015, 05:49 PM
It would be nice to see some specific examples, though probably not appropriate for a LW forum.

I'll keep it concise: Check out this video (https://vimeo.com/135274493), this video (https://vimeo.com/135274500), and this video (https://vimeo.com/135274495), for some examples of what I mean, specific to the takes/overrides/tokens.

jeric_synergy
09-30-2015, 07:02 PM
well they did change the FiberFX sdk for octane.....but I guess we will live with that.
Lino also has wasted hours doing octane tutorials that may have been better spent on lightwave development :)
I'm rather tired of all the Octane talk too.

Vong
09-30-2015, 07:18 PM
I'm rather tired of all the Octane talk too.

+1

I agree!!!

m.d.
09-30-2015, 08:18 PM
LOL ok....

I can see why you are not interested in developing resources for external renders then :)

vonpietro
09-30-2015, 09:56 PM
so which would you rather have -
200 low lying fruits - lots of little workflow improvements
or
2 big watermelons =) - major new thing like pbr

Snosrap
09-30-2015, 10:13 PM
Well I was hoping to see more from Rob before I bit the bullet and upgraded at the last minute, but I guess I have just hope and pray. :) At least I got a good deal on 2015.

djwaterman
09-30-2015, 10:25 PM
Impatiently waiting for this deal to end so I can see the blog. It's meant to be "this week".

jeric_synergy
10-01-2015, 12:12 AM
so which would you rather have -
200 low lying fruits - lots of little workflow improvements
or
2 big watermelons =) - major new thing like pbr
Personally, I'd much prefer 200 LHFs. The constant aggravation is quite wearing, and the fancy stuff I just don't need. Does "consistency" count as just one, or dozens?

YMMV.

Surrealist.
10-01-2015, 01:08 AM
We have only seen a glimpse of what is in store. But in my opinion if the code base has been revamped with new tech then it makes perfectly logical sense to flush out a render engine first. Especially considering how many of us have asked for - and currently use - a pbr solution for texturing. Additionally it is becoming a widely used method for texturing all around. And it is a brilliant move to support it in LightWave now.

That alone will attract users from other platforms.

Additionally I think you could make a strong case that rendering is the most commonly needed feature in LightWave. It is the one feature that supports more pipelines than not. Most pipelines end in a render - not all - but most do. And traditionally LightWave has filled this role at the end of pipelines that use animation tools outside of LightWave. And unless you are strictly working on a pipeline that does not render final images - at all on your end - chances are you are rendering your final work in LightWave. And that would cross a lot of industry and use.

So a completely logical place to work first.

And although LightWave does have a nice internal render solution it is out-dated.

And that there are 3P renders out there I don't think is a strong case to ignore it in LightWave. Support of features is usually the weak point in 3P renders. And cuts out a lot of people. This happens to me all the time. "X render solution would be great if it supported feature B". So so we ask and wait, or move on. With it done in house there is almost a positive certainly that all features will be supported. Not at first but we can be sure it will definitely be a priority and eventual reality. Whereas with a 3P solution we don't always know what they will even be able to do whether they want to or not.

With the new code base in place there should be little to be concerned about with the rest of the features we have been waiting for in Modeling/rigging/animation and so on.

I would say at this point - unless we hear something definitive otherwise - that these other features are a non issue.

And in fact it would appear that these features will be tied into a much more innovative approach. If Chrono Sculpt is but the mere beginning of all of this, then I say, wait and see. This may likely turn some heads in the industry. For me CS has been the brightest spot in LW development in the last few years and if that is going into LightWave in a bigger way and across more features, I think it is very good news.

But we have to wait and see what state things are in now before speculating specifics.

erikals
10-01-2015, 01:12 AM
hi, does it have...
Tone Mapping?