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Farhad_azer
09-27-2015, 02:44 AM
Is this totally doable?

I am getting somewhere but not very close to this.

I am also aware that procedural textures could be modified by UV through texture filter (if I am not wrong) but if this is too complicated then I might go and make a texture manually in painting programs.

What is your take on this plz?

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djwaterman
09-27-2015, 04:48 AM
Procedurals have their place, but in this case you should make it manually. Also, if this fish is a background object, like a fish in a tank on a table in a bigger scene, you could probably just use that photo as the texture map. If you are making this fish the subject and main focus, well you can learn a lot by making a fish, in detail. Going back to another of your posts about portfolio work, a photo-realistic fish render and model would be a good piece for a folio if it's really exceptionally well done.

Farhad_azer
09-27-2015, 05:10 AM
Dear djwaterman, I remember your post and I had decided to ask you to post it the way so it goes to sticky part of the forum.

I obey your advice from there and have modeled and textured this to some degree but I am not confident enough to post it. Maybe I will thu.

I think this is a rich subject for texturing bec it contains lots of methods needing to combine together.

What will you say?

- - - Updated - - -

Forgot to say this is going to be one of the main subjects and I am also animating it.

Farhad_azer
09-27-2015, 10:41 AM
Would you please follow me here?

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?148239-My-first-MasterPIECE&p=1446298#post1446298

Thanks

prometheus
09-27-2015, 10:45 AM
maybe I should recommend sculptris and paint texture and bump in there?
sculptris is free, collect some fishscale textures..if that is what you need and use that when painting in 3d with sculptris, you can blend and mix different textures too, you could paint it with sculptris in color mode first, then only use images of fish scales when you add bump texturing on top of that.

uv mapīs comes correctly when exporting to obj and importing to lightwave, you may have to rescale the model though, but the map is there though it may not be the most efficient uv map (tiled)

you are correct..you can use image filter to modify the procedural texture flow...but donīt think that is the way to go.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-QRbc63CAs

jeric_synergy
09-27-2015, 12:51 PM
People used to do miracles with alpha mattes in procedural layers-- always seemed like a boatload of work to me. The advent of UV maps pretty much scotched that.

Go ahead and post anything you have questions on-- worst case is we'll suggest fixes. --Except me: I'll be really mean. ;)

Farhad_azer
09-28-2015, 12:25 AM
I remember this video when you posted it first time Michael and I was really intrigued bec I used to believe sculptris is only for sculpting 3d meshes.

Maybe I should do this.

I don't see anyone doing uv on procedural anywhere and my guess is that it is cumbersome. am I right or wrong? Is it useful for some cases?

prometheus
09-28-2015, 06:15 PM
I remember this video when you posted it first time Michael and I was really intrigued bec I used to believe sculptris is only for sculpting 3d meshes.

Maybe I should do this.

I don't see anyone doing uv on procedural anywhere and my guess is that it is cumbersome. am I right or wrong? Is it useful for some cases?


I remember this video when you posted it first time Michael and I was really intrigued bec I used to believe sculptris is only for sculpting 3d meshes.

Maybe I should do this.

I don't see anyone doing uv on procedural anywhere and my guess is that it is cumbersome. am I right or wrong? Is it useful for some cases?

Yes cumbersome to set up..
it is not so initiuve to work with, you have to keep in mind the image editor loaded black image, there you need to pull down the textured image filter, and and it is there you use the procedural texture, not in the actual surface color channel, in the surface channel you only load the black image...so it is awkward to work that way.
I have run in to freezing of layout doing this with VPR active..so that is a warning.

You might have seen this from William Vaughan...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgDCekQCuA8

Michael

prometheus
09-28-2015, 07:06 PM
Also to think about if you follow williams tutorial and use image filter, all that will only be valid for the scene ..not the object itself, since textured filter is related to the image editor and not the object, and that could mess up objects if you load for other scenes etc..not sure if you can bake all that out though.

prometheus
09-28-2015, 07:23 PM
yepp..just tested to bake out procedurals using uv maps, so it works...so you can reload the procedurals ..but as image maps and assigned to the object surface.

prometheus
09-28-2015, 07:31 PM
yepp..just tested to bake out procedurals using uv maps, so it works.

jeric_synergy
09-28-2015, 08:48 PM
I had forgotten that technique: it was MADDENING how Proton kept choosing fluffy procedurals instead of, eg, GRID so we could more easily see the effect of the UV map on a more linear effect.

Of course, what Farhad is looking for is probably a procedural that emulates fish scales.

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prometheus
09-29-2015, 01:13 PM
I had forgotten that technique: it was MADDENING how Proton kept choosing fluffy procedurals instead of, eg, GRID so we could more easily see the effect of the UV map on a more linear effect.

Of course, what Farhad is looking for is probably a procedural that emulates fish scales.

130017

Nativly I think I would look in to slates with distortion maybe..
I looked at simbiont and thought I had seen something..but couldnīt find it there, those are free..simbiont are tricky to install though, but it has some very nice procedurals for a lot of stuff..check the green links for images on the different textures etc...
All
http://www.darksim.com/html/simbiontlw.html

Couldnīt find it in the skin section either...
http://www.darksim.com/Repository/na_Skin/

Now then we have commercial ifw2 textures..thought it should be under skin there too, but doesnīt seem that way, I did find fish scales in the tiles section though...
http://www.shaders.co.uk/ifw2_textures/pifw2_tiles.htm#s5

prometheus
09-29-2015, 01:19 PM
And another way would be to model the scales and perhaps bake it in to the model with normal baking.

JoePoe
09-29-2015, 05:39 PM
Certainly learn your UVing....

But you could also just use a weight map (or two) to control your procedurals.

watch:
Creating a surface that uses multiple textures for the Bump channel on the Node Editor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXfx-35WDX0)
and
Creating Texture Displacement and a brief look at some of the options found in the Node Editor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ppbs8FHvTg) Watch the whole thing ,but the most applicable part to your post starts at 3:10.
and
1 Weight Map, 1 Surface, Multi-Surfaces (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1TgbaPBnzQ)

jeric_synergy
09-29-2015, 05:52 PM
Weight maps are nice because they don't get separated from the LWO. I like that-- and h8 having to keep a mesh and a bitmap together. :devil:

That's one thing: I know it would result in enormous files, BUT, the option to embed an image into a LWO would be nice. --Perhaps I'm abnormally disorganized?

One thing I've never tried: can w.maps function usefully as a vertex oriented alpha channel?

tonyrizo2003
09-30-2015, 12:25 AM
Procedural I think you would be able to do it, but it might take a lot of experimentation. UV maps plus weight maps and gradient maps. It kind of depends how close you are going to get to the fish. As others have mentioned, you could also create a high resolution texture and a normal map for either mesh displacement or bump. If you want the easy way out, then I would go a head and create high resolution image maps.

prometheus
09-30-2015, 08:16 AM
There is also the workflow of importing the fish to a sculpting program like zbrush or the free sculptris and use brush textures or alpha images and displace the model after it is divided in to high res, then export out the map as normal map.
but itīs a more advanced method, but probably commonly used for high end detail effects like dragon scales...there are lot of free tutorials on youtube for such stuff..at least for zbrush..havenīt checked whatīs available for sculptris.
but for a fish it may be to overdo it a bit, fish scales are not so in deep with relief like a dragon scale perhaps.

Farhad_azer
10-01-2015, 12:58 PM
I am doing what you said tony and I get some result. Going procedural was my first priority but I think it will not be practical and I want to discuss those issues.

I sent model to sculptris and did some painting stuffs Michael. the results were not gr8 bec of lack of my experience in this area. I did watch some utube stuffs but it would be great if you help me find some tuts that focus specifically on texturing and painting than modelin please.

prometheus
10-01-2015, 02:58 PM
I am doing what you said tony and I get some result. Going procedural was my first priority but I think it will not be practical and I want to discuss those issues.

I sent model to sculptris and did some painting stuffs Michael. the results were not gr8 bec of lack of my experience in this area. I did watch some utube stuffs but it would be great if you help me find some tuts that focus specifically on texturing and painting than modelin please.

I havenīt myself followed any tutorials..only messed about myself and figuring out, so I donīt know of specific tutorials, that means your searches will probably be as good as mine if you search on youtube.
If I stumble on anything and if I have time to check it ..I will let you know, but as mentioned..your searching will be as good as mine...since I donīt know which ones are good and to the spot so to speak..it would require me to go through them just as you have to do.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sculptris+painting+textures

jeric_synergy
10-01-2015, 04:58 PM
Now is the time you have to just put time IN. There's no magical software, there's SKILL in using powerful software.

JoePoe
10-02-2015, 04:38 PM
Take my advice... whatever you do don't follow my earlier advice! :D

I managed to get something going with weights only and procedurals, but what a pain in the butt.

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What I had to go through.... (I'm sure this could be cleaner).

130137

jeric_synergy
10-02-2015, 05:47 PM
Good follow-up: I have no idea what the network is doing, but it looks painful.

Farhad_azer
10-02-2015, 08:39 PM
I followed your advice but could not totally apply it to my model bec I thought it will require tremendous amount of polygons which would have made animating a lot harder.( I might be wrong).

This is great what u have done. thank you for spending time. My assumption is that u will not upload this scene to a poor boy like me who is not very experienced in node editor. (or would you???)

shrox
10-02-2015, 08:42 PM
Take my advice... whatever you do don't follow my earlier advice! :D

I managed to get something going with weights only and procedurals, but what a pain in the butt.

130136

What I had to go through.... (I'm sure this could be cleaner).

130137

What if this was photos pinned to a wall all connected by red and green strings...

JoePoe
10-02-2015, 08:54 PM
What if this was photos pinned to a wall all connected by red and green strings...

:D We all live in the Multiverse!

Farhad_azer
10-03-2015, 06:19 AM
130143

This is the best I have so far. I know it is embarrassing and I am really disappointed with myself now.

Should I keep working more or change my strategy? I don't think I am in right track here.

jeric_synergy
10-03-2015, 08:48 AM
130143
This is the best I have so far. I know it is embarrassing and I am really disappointed with myself now.
I work with a very accomplished and successful sculptor, he is always building mechanical devices for his friends.

He is NEVER disappointed with experiments in how to do something, because he feels that he is just adding to his vocabulary, and that gives him more tools to deal with similar situations. He knows seven cheap and fast ways to construct a 3d positioner that looks good.

His other mantra is "Repetition makes the Master." So, ease up on yourself: you're already doing better Surfacing than I.

JoePoe
10-03-2015, 08:55 AM
Farhad, what look are you going for in the end? Realistic, illustrative, cartoony?

General comment first. This is a great object to experiment with. You don't even need a UV map! It's a big flat fish.... you can use a planar projection. (I believe this was mentioned before. Just re-stating). Of course when you get farther down the road special attention will be needed for the side fin. But first things first.

If realistic:
It seems like you are trying to recreate the photo by painting. I'm not saying that can't be done. But why not just use the photo (I think this was also mentioned earlier)? For me, in general, if I want something to look real, I use real images.

Illustrative: Again because this is basically a flat object I would work on a flat drawing in Illustrator (or whatever). Look at Google images for "fish illustration". Use, copy, combine what you find. If it's an illustrative interpretation of the original photo.... put it in a background layer as reference and trace over the sucker.

You can combine the two techniques also :hey:.

I'll post an example of both soon.

Farhad_azer
10-03-2015, 09:27 AM
130147

One line of your statement changed the quality of result I was getting for a work that has taken me more than 5 days. Big thanks dear Joepoe.

I can work on this now for hours and stay awake whole night.


Dear jeric, plz keep motivating young lightwavers. I don't know how you can produce so much energy. I remember once you hit 11,111 posts and I decided to congratulate you on this but as I was typing suddenly found ur overall post counts reached 11,12x sth. I am not kidding. Yes you are right, and I am adding to my vocabulary. the thing is when we don't get result we just get depressed BUT I will keep pushing forward.

Farhad_azer
10-03-2015, 09:29 AM
Dera JoePoe I was trying to get realistic results, maybe I am taking too much of your time.

JoePoe
10-03-2015, 09:34 AM
See!! You were even faster than me :). :thumbsup:

Like I mentioned... the side fin will require a little bit extra attention.

130148

Edit: I see you are going for realistic, so I won't bother with an illustration example. You get the idea now!

Farhad_azer
10-03-2015, 10:17 AM
High five Joe, thanks again.

I just don't understand what u mean by illustrative. what is the difference between cartoony and illustrative (dumb question).

JoePoe
10-03-2015, 10:33 AM
I guess "Drawing" would be the inclusive term.
In terms of the fish I was just trying to determine if you wanted a more technical type drawing or something a little less formal looking (....cartoony).

http://vertebrates.si.edu/fishes/albatross/albatross_img/P02214_Chaetodon_auripes.jpg https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKLjG665DO-pnOL9Pt_EPec6d3CCN4Lr3OyAjPMRbjJzVJGXDvAg
But this is all semantics.... different for everybody. Not a dumb question at all..... huge space for varying interpretation. My bad.

Farhad_azer
10-04-2015, 03:08 AM
No worries, u helped a lot Joe, it seems that illustrative is closer to cartoony than realistic in terms of appearance.

Please don't hesitate to say no but can I have scene file u posted earlier (with nodes etc)? I am not going to use it for commercial production or sth, just look and learn specially the nodes inside of it. It totally depends on you of course.

Thanks again for so much help.

JoePoe
10-04-2015, 09:05 AM
In that two picture example, sure. But there are artists out there who specialize in drawing/painting fantastically photorealistic imagery. I am not one of these people :D.

Sure I'll post the scene (not in front of LW at the moment), with the disclaimer that there is probably just as much to learn about what NOT to do as there is correct in my setup. Please take them with a grain of salt... if that saying translates to Azerbaijani :).

JoePoe
10-04-2015, 05:34 PM
Here ya go. It's basically just a whole bunch of mixer nodes and a few bumps fed in-line through each other.
I originally was going go with a gradient driven by a weight map with a bunch of key inputs corresponding to each part. But I wanted smoother map falloffs anyway, so I just strung them together in a chain instead.
Some parts have two weight maps... i.e. one weight fade for color and a different fade for use in transparency.

Use at your own risk :D.

Edit: uh... now that I just posted... You did mean the nodes for the procedural method right? Using the image map instead gets rid of whole top level of mixers etc.

Farhad_azer
10-06-2015, 02:26 PM
I have difficulty opening your scene maybe bec I am in 11 series. it says shape bomber or sth plugin not found but it is enough to learn and get the whole concept.

This is also a great opportunity for me to get used to node editor and I am learning a lot from your weight map assignment.

There are also good tricks on how you have set lighting/environment images etc which I encourage other beginners like me to take a look at it.

One more question please, how long did this take for you to create? how much of it was dedicated to modeling and how much for texturing approximately?

JoePoe
10-06-2015, 03:13 PM
Right, forgot that that node wasn't native. It's from Denis' Rman collection from http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/plugins/Textures.htm

I don't really remember times, but the model was real quick .... maybe half hour? A little more? Used that same image as backdrop to trace.
Texturing was a few hours mostly just hunting around and experimenting with different procedurals and how to displace or position them and playing with different falloffs for the weights (I used Weight Outward (https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/weight-outward/)a lot, but the model is so flat linear falloff curves should be fine).

But, as you could see, using the photo image itself instead was just a few minutes. I just threw it on. Actually the model in layer 6 of what I sent fits the image much better. forgot that was there :D. Refining it would take a bit longer of course (separating out the side fin and patching the original picture without the fin for a clean side etc...).

I can noodle with texturing for ever and ever. At some point ya just gotta say "enough is enough ...it's done".

Farhad_azer
10-08-2015, 06:24 AM
I am sure you will agree that going procedural is very important and worth learning, imagine situations that the image quality is poor or did not exist at all,

What will you say about adding SSS or fast skin? will this add another layer of realm to the scene as the fish is living tissue( I might be totally wrong). I did some experimentation and results were not so much impressive.