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calilifestyle
09-02-2015, 12:18 AM
Oh man they are finally pushing out a trial of zbrush.

JamesCurtis
09-02-2015, 08:42 PM
Good to hear. I wonder if it has any limitations?

erikals
09-03-2015, 12:16 AM
with no restrictions!

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

Marander
09-03-2015, 03:44 AM
Good to hear. I wonder if it has any limitations?

Except the horrible UI... I'll wait for R5 and have fun with 3D Coat instead.

calilifestyle
09-03-2015, 11:21 AM
Except the horrible UI... I'll wait for R5 and have fun with 3D Coat instead.

i have to say wow you're right. I had no clue what to do. Maybe once i have some free time to go through the training things will make sense.

Marander
09-03-2015, 06:31 PM
I'm relieved it's not just me :-)

Sure it's a powerful tool but it wants you to completely forget all the usability standards. Initially you just draw on a 2.5D canvas. Don't know why they still stick to this 2.5D legacy, I think nobody uses that functionality anymore.
For a quick start as far as I understood: when you want to simply sculpt you have to create a (so called) "Tool" (object) from the "Lightbox", then immediately hit Edit (only the last tool is editable) and hit Create Polymesh or so. Otherwise you have to clean the canvas and start all over again. Navigation, modeling, texturing, retopo etc. it's all so weird to use. I find myself mostly reseting the UI because I end up in a mess.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, once you master it the workflow must be great and of course users are creating crazy artwork with it but I feel wasting my time learning a software that is so different from every normal UI standard. To be honest, using it makes me upset. I got 3D-Coat educational for $99 and I'm more then happy with it, the perfect companion for LW for me.

But thanks for the info about the trial!

jasonwestmas
09-03-2015, 08:36 PM
Zbrush is a UFO but hey it's only unidentified until you identify it.

dsol
09-04-2015, 08:45 AM
Zbrush is filled to the brim with mindbogglingly cool technology. But yes, the workflow is pretty ridiculous and unituitive. It's not completely illogical per se - it's just that it follows its own logic!

erikals
09-04-2015, 10:01 AM
great software, but i too left it due to the UI workflow...

maybe i could've fixed it with AHK, but nah, i got myself 3DCoat instead, which seems quite alright
(have yet to use it extensively... > agh)

jeric_synergy
09-04-2015, 10:54 AM
It always warms my heart when people support 3dcoat, considering the big help that guy has been to the LW market, when everybody else was ignoring LW.

adrian
09-08-2015, 02:42 AM
There is a steep learning curve for ZB but once you get over that it becomes second nature to use despite it being so different from everything else.

djwaterman
09-08-2015, 04:13 AM
I'm sure some guys have an expensive electric guitar stuffed away in their closet gathering dust, I have ZB.

50one
09-08-2015, 04:47 AM
I'm sure some guys have an expensive electric guitar stuffed away in their closet gathering dust, I have ZB.

Same here, I've forced myself to go through all videos on Pixo site and learn the basics and I was quite successful but I've got a feeling to do any sculpting/drawing you need to have sculpting/drawing skills in the first place otherwise you can use it for Hard Surface and some detailing work. It's a great tool, but sadly, not really for my or my needs atm.

S

adrian
09-09-2015, 02:12 AM
I also forced myself to learn it properly; I subscribed to Digital Tutors and went through loads of their courses, plus the Pixologic ones. I bought Ryan Kingslien's Zombie intro course too. Additionally I also went along to life drawing classes (I can't draw to save my life) and on top of all that I've been studying anatomy for the past 2 years. So yes, quite an investment in time and energy but personally I'm so glad I've gone through it because I now really enjoy using ZB whereas before I was actually scared of the software because it was so daunting!!

Oh and I'm nowhere near a ZBrush expert yet.

lightscape
09-09-2015, 04:00 AM
The first thing that zbrush needs to do is get rid of the 2.5 canvas and go directly to the 3d canvas.
Make items dropped in the 3d canvas editable from the start.
The second thing is to improve the subtools workflow. Its just layers but a "different" implementation.
Third, the move, rotate, scale workflow is too different again. Pose and translate tools in 3dcoat is easier.
Masking, unmasking, selection, deleting selections could be better.

jasonwestmas
09-09-2015, 06:59 AM
The first thing that zbrush needs to do is get rid of the 2.5 canvas and go directly to the 3d canvas.
Make items dropped in the 3d canvas editable from the start.
The second thing is to improve the subtools workflow. Its just layers but a "different" implementation.
Third, the move, rotate, scale workflow is too different again. Pose and translate tools in 3dcoat is easier.
Masking, unmasking, selection, deleting selections could be better.

A lot of these so called issues is from not taking advantage of the changes that pixo made to make things better for some people or everyone. The 2.5 canvas thing never got in my way although it would be nice to be able to paint on the model's UVs without having to drop the mesh onto the canvas. I'd rather take the model into a dedicated painting app for detailed texture work anyway.

lightscape
09-09-2015, 07:41 AM
Did they make changes? Its been a few months since I touched Z.
Can you drop a tool and it automatically switches to edit mode and is properly oriented all the time? I'm always spinning around after dropping a tool. Sometimes dropping a tool its not oriented to the other tool.
And the subtools can be made simpler by following typical layer system found in lw, 3dmax, modo.
The masking workflow is not intuitive for me. shift+ctl click on emtpy canvas, etc, hold other button to reverse functions, inverse selection, delete hidden, etc. I always forget how to do them if I don't use zbrush for a while.
Did they change the transform gizmo to other than those 3 circles?

dickbill
09-13-2015, 08:12 AM
yes the UI in zb is a total disaster. It takes hours, sometimes days to figure out how to do the simplest thing. For example I am looking for how to sculpt in a straight line. I still haven't figure out after 2 days of trial and errors....
I am sure somebody will say it's easy dummy, just go to that obscure function in the sub-menu number 104 and use the combination CRTL-ALT-SHIFT...or I have to vision 3 hrs of videos, while the trick just take a second once you know it.
It's ironic when you consider that zbrush was once advertised for its 'intuitive GI, designed for artists'.
I assume that if you use zb every day, you will eventually get over these annoyances, but, as it was mentioned above, stop using it for a few months and you'll have to relearn again.
Perhaps it's easy and it's just me stupid, but when a standard is set, in this case the Microsoft-style interface , you don't change the rules suddenly. Time is too precious to be wasted in reinventing the wheel for each program.

dickbill
09-13-2015, 08:16 AM
don't tell me the answer for the 'straight line'. I wanna see how many days/videos it will take me to find out.

jasonwestmas
09-13-2015, 08:50 AM
don't tell me the answer for the 'straight line'. I wanna see how many days/videos it will take me to find out.

I'll give you a hint, it has something to do with the shift key. Also look into the lazy mouse backtrack option.

dickbill
09-13-2015, 09:09 AM
I tried the 'shift' as an early attempt, since it is the standard thing to do in many programs to make line straight. It doesn't do anything for me.
So I figure the next thing that would make sense is to go to the stroke menu, where I discovered for the first time the existence of several LINE stroke. None of them do anything different my actual stroke on my object, so I still sculpt in free-hand style curved lines, even with the LINE stroke ON. How intuitive is that?
Next logical thing to me was to go on the CURVE submenu in that STROKE menu and indeed I discovered an ALIGN CURVE TO LINE function. When activated, it indeed allows to draw a straight Line 'path', for which, at least on every other program on Earth, the correct thing to do to apply the stroke, is to push either the ENTER keystroke, or perhaps the SPACE keystroke. It has become a standard that i am sure 99% of users will try first. But of course nothing happen if you do that on Zbrush.

Now after 2+ hours wasted, I am disgusted and I am going to walk my dogs. so, it's 3 days and counting.

jasonwestmas
09-13-2015, 09:37 AM
Intuition in software is a myth (but yeah some tools are a tad convoluted but that doesn't mean they are useless). . . you have to know how it was intended to be used before it can be used. Backtrack is called backtrack because you are supposed to move the mouse back to its original position after you draw out the line gizmo thing. This allows progressive refinement of how deep or high you want your stroke to go. To use the shift option without backtrack you simply left click and drag ever so slightly in the direction you want and then press and hold down the shift key immediately after that. . . then drag out your line. This works with 45 degree angles as well.

dickbill
09-13-2015, 09:56 AM
Thanks, you find out for me with the shift option. I really tried the shift option before, several times, and it didn't seem to do anything different. Now it works....I wonder why. Does that function have a sort of delay, or a precedent to load the relevant subroutine, before it becomes actually activated? long enough to fool me that it 'didn't work'?
I agree that 'Intuition' is a myth, only the standards of usage prevail. Since 'shift' is such a standard to make straight lines, I guess zbrush is correct here. But I still count 3 days to figure out and I had to go on a forum to find out.

jasonwestmas
09-13-2015, 11:21 AM
But I still count 3 days to figure out and I had to go on a forum to find out.

yeah it happens, in time a lot of tools become as easy as typing and at one time we couldn't even do that. Hang in there! Some times I even forget how to explain how I do something because it becomes so embedded in my subconscious.

lightscape
09-13-2015, 07:58 PM
'Intuition' is a myth, only the standards of usage prevail.

They're interconnected.
A lot of highly paid UIX designers would beg to differ that things can't be made intuitive.
Software can certainly be made to be unintuitive so the reverse is true. Zbrush definitely belongs there which is why so many people struggle with it at first. But keep at it and it will sink in. Just don't neglect to use it for a couple of weeks. :D

jasonwestmas
09-14-2015, 07:14 AM
They're interconnected.
A lot of highly paid UIX designers would beg to differ that things can't be made intuitive.
Software can certainly be made to be unintuitive so the reverse is true. Zbrush definitely belongs there which is why so many people struggle with it at first. But keep at it and it will sink in. Just don't neglect to use it for a couple of weeks. :D

hmph Zbrush is like riding a bike with me, it can be remembered. Just like typing. I'm a generalist so I don't live inside a zbrush bubble. :)

Julez4001
09-14-2015, 11:03 AM
I am a generalist too.It has taken me years to get comfortable with Zbrush but I will admit that not until Zbrush 4r4 did it become tool in my toolbox.

ZRemesher just changed the entire game for topology. SO for me, Zbrush for sculpting and retoplogy.

I used 3DCoat for UV layouts and texture painting which is agonizing (ie..easy to screw things up) to do in Zbrush.

bobakabob
09-14-2015, 01:53 PM
Best advice is persevere. You eventually discover that Zbrush has its own logic and after all the frustrations can be a genuine pleasure to use. Yes, it can initially drive you crazy but whatever you have a mind to do you can usually Google it and discover Pixologic or some generous soul has the solution. Once you find your feet you can customise the UI to suit your workflow.

Zbrush really is like learning a new instrument. It's a huge complex programme so definitely worth keeping a notebook by you. I've used it since it's earliest incarnation and still feel I've barely discovered its potential. You can learn to use ZBrush by following many of the free Pixologic and YouTube tutorials on the basics and more advanced stuff alongside the online manual.

Also ZB with its unique modelling and surfacing tools is a great complement to Lightwave. I can't recommend it enough especially for character work. For example, the innovative hair tools alone are worth the price of admission. You can import curves directly into LW for FiberFX or just create realistic polygonal FBX creations ready for use in Layout. The UV toolset is huge and intuitive.

The only 'negative' I can think of is that, like LW, the rest is up to imagination.

jeric_synergy
09-14-2015, 10:49 PM
"Intuition" is a myth, I'd say. But "consistency" is not. If a tool has a consistent approach, it is much easier to learn, predict, and explore.

Lack of consistency is one of LW's pitfalls.

lightscape
09-15-2015, 10:43 PM
Remembering is a part of human nature. You can remember even bad stuff. You can remember zbrush given the time. :D
There are books and design standards written by smarter people than us. Its in everything, graphic design, architecture, industrial design, software design.
Software has a learning curve. How easy or hard is it to learn. Its like the educational system. Not all are equal. But with a better system you get better results.
With experimental behavior how are things learned and discovered? It has to make sense for the majority not the minority. Ever wonder why we pinch to zoom and not swipe to zoom, etc? Could it be that it made sense for majority of people to do it that way and so it became a standard? We have become familiar with it now.
Intuitive is familiarity. Both zbrush and blender have many failings in that regard imo. The learning curve for zbrush is higher because there's less familiarity imo.

dickbill
09-16-2015, 07:12 AM
do you expect a new interface to be announced in the upcoming event zb2015, I assume for zb 5, ?

jasonwestmas
09-16-2015, 09:08 AM
They haven't breathed a word about Zbrush 5 lately. . . but no, a brand new interface is not likely at all. I think most long time zbrush users are comfortable with creating their own custom UI palettes. I would recommend looking into that.

djwaterman
09-16-2015, 06:59 PM
I think if they significantly changed the UI they would actually lose users. Let's face it, when you look at the quality of work being turned out with ZBrush, it's the user who must adapt.

jeric_synergy
09-16-2015, 08:21 PM
At this point, it's working for them. Too late to change horses.

lightscape
09-16-2015, 08:49 PM
do you expect a new interface to be announced in the upcoming event zb2015, I assume for zb 5, ?

Doubt it. This is not blender.
Zbrush is a major app in the industry with millions of users out there.
What they can do is provide optional features to make stuff more familiar to even 2d photoshop users who's never touched a 3d app.

dickbill
09-17-2015, 06:43 AM
At this point, it's working for them. Too late to change horses.

yep