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Chernoby
08-22-2015, 07:31 PM
Always a good flame war topic but I'll be looking to purchase a new workstation in a few months.

Please offer your opinion if you would stay with a Mac or is it time to switch to PC... based on GPU rendering, software options, and anything else uou think the future will bring

Sensei
08-22-2015, 07:34 PM
Plugins for LW are developed on Windows machines ;)

hdace
08-22-2015, 10:25 PM
PC hardware has the potential to be more powerful, but the Mac OS is superior. Thus I have three Hackintoshes & one PC. I also started using Octane and I thanked someone upstairs that I used Nvidia cards because Octane wouldn't work with Macs' AMD GPUs. However, with Octane 3 coming out at the end of the year they're finally going to support AMD, so if you like the Mac Pro, I would go with that. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm getting one soon.

CaptainMarlowe
08-23-2015, 12:20 AM
You can get a look at create.pro, they provide powerfull Mac Pros for a very good price, with powerfull modded GPUs like Gtx 980ti. Personnally, as I use FCP X and Motion almost as often as Lightwave, and since I can live without the PC-only plug-ins, LWCAD being the only essential one for me, staying on Mac is a no-braiser. My next one Will be a loaded Mac from create.pro : I don't want the hassle of spending hours reconfiguring a hackintosh at each update and new Mac Pros are out of reach for me.

raw-m
08-23-2015, 01:33 AM
Octane 3 coming out at the end of the year they're finally going to support AMD

Didn't know that, that's fantastic news!

Another Mac head here, holding out for the next MacPro refresh. All down to the OS for me, on a Mac I feel in control of it rather than the other way round - and the hardware is no slouch and lasts for years!

Markc
08-23-2015, 03:56 AM
AFAIK from what I read, I think Octane 3 is supporting CPU rendering also (unless they are referring to Intel integrated graphics).
They want to cover all bases, which is great.

wesleycorgi
08-23-2015, 06:43 AM
I'm a long time Mac user and am getting frustrated that don't provide an Nvidia option, except for their iMacs and probably this will go AMD when they refresh that line. At the Otoy booth at Siggraph, they mentioned the OpenCL/AMD support in Octane 3. However, they weren't sure if there would be parity in performance of OpenCL vs. what Cuda does (at least in Octane 3's initial release).

I wish someone would come out with a commercial eGPU. And I believe Apple should do this, with their whole line-up of underpowered Macs in the graphics department. They give you a piss-poor integrated graphics card, but tease you with the speed of Thunderbolt.

DrStrik9
08-23-2015, 09:56 AM
<rant>

This may be semi-off-topic, but as a long-time Mac addict, I have to say the form factor of the new Mac Pro is simply ABSURD. In my office, there is this small shiny trash can with 12 black wires streaming from its back-side, which is really its front-side, since all the expansion must be done via EXTERNAL devices, each of which must have its own case(!), making expansion even more expensive than the already heavily-inflated price of this box, er, CAN. Yes, it's powerful and blindingly fast, but it looks RIDICULOUS, with external boxes and wires all over the place. My older Mac Pro is elegant by comparison being entirely self-contained. The form-factor of the new Mac Pro is just stupid.

Mac OS is the real reason I stay with Mac (so far). But Apple seems to have utterly lost their way regarding form-factor design.

</rant>

hdace
08-23-2015, 10:15 AM
I have to say, I'm very surprised at this. I was looking forward to having one of those "cans" on my desk after years of Hackintoshes. My G5 was my last real Mac from about eight years ago and I always thought it was way too big & heavy. But your explanation does make a lot of sense... Hmm, going to have to think about this...

Chernoby
08-23-2015, 10:31 AM
I'm a long time Mac user too. I just don't see the need to stay with them anymore. They dis-continued the MacPro for several years so they might do it again and their pro exclusive apps are jokes now (not worth buying hardware for solely using FCP X).

So many imaging stuff does not utilize or support Open CL.

Plugins are rare on Mac. Software is either late to Mac or not-released (Fusion Studio 7).

I like the dependability of the Macs and their longevity but with CPUs and GPUs progressing so rapidly what is the use of buying a $3K MacPro (on the cheap end) when it will last for decades but only be relevant for 3-4 years. I could buy 2 brand new PCs during that time.

OS is great but not really a factor for me.

hrgiger
08-23-2015, 10:55 AM
I would suggest pc for a few reasons.... price being one. You can get a faster system for less money. Also, most plugins will be available for pcs.

DrStrik9
08-23-2015, 05:02 PM
I'm a long time Mac user too. I just don't see the need to stay with them anymore. They dis-continued the MacPro for several years so they might do it again and their pro exclusive apps are jokes now (not worth buying hardware for solely using FCP X).

So many imaging stuff does not utilize or support Open CL.

Plugins are rare on Mac. Software is either late to Mac or not-released (Fusion Studio 7).

I like the dependability of the Macs and their longevity but with CPUs and GPUs progressing so rapidly what is the use of buying a $3K MacPro (on the cheap end) when it will last for decades but only be relevant for 3-4 years. I could buy 2 brand new PCs during that time.

OS is great but not really a factor for me.

OS is HUGE for me. I'm windows-phobic. I've tried before to understand it, but I just can't get past the "superior voice" in its design -- and Microsaur support is a further insult. If there was a way to get away from Mac without having to go to Windows, I'd be all over it.

SquishyAni
08-24-2015, 05:27 AM
Mac Pro user here. I use OS X Yosemite for all my main work, but I also have windows 7 boot camped for when I need the extra plugins. Basically, I get the best of both worlds.

graviel
08-24-2015, 07:51 AM
I have PC, MAC and a hardware based hackintosh (no software hack but a bios modification). It is all good sweet and cool with LW and OSX. There is only 1 plugin which I cannot run but I got an alternative workflow, and otherwise having Unix behind gives so many extra possibilities.

Linux for servers, BSD for networks, Solaris for databases, Windows for the desktop, and OSX for graphics. %-D

raymondtrace
08-24-2015, 08:35 AM
Isn't there a third option?

http://lwonlinux.oleeblood.com/

Running the Windows version of LW on Linux (or on Mac) with Wine may give you access to all the Windows-only LW add-ons.

For Mac users, there may be no need to load Windows as a VM or Boot Camp.

For Linux users, there's no need to ask the PC/Mac question.

I gave up on Mac before the move to Intel so I cannot confirm if Windows LW runs on Mac with Wine. But I can confirm it works with Linux. I rarely boot into Windows.

Chernoby
08-24-2015, 10:45 AM
I love Linux (Lubuntu... that's what I use for my laptop and office/document/email stuff)... but dear God it is a hassle for many a thing.

Wanna watch Netflix? Just install these libraries first. Oh they're not supported anymore? Just install these older libraries and you can run the newer ones? But first install this package to be able to build the library... you may need to install this other thing to let this other thing work first... yes keep using the terminal. The command for install, Google it.

I can't see doing this on pro software. Wine is a not exactly the sturdiest thing or most reliable.

raymondtrace
08-24-2015, 12:04 PM
Is Netflix a plugin for LW? :)

I only run pro software on my pro computer.

Thomas Helzle
08-25-2015, 10:49 AM
Very much a matter of taste and money.

If you are fine with using Windows 8.1 or 10 (or Linux), I see zero reason to go Mac.
For professional use, the Apple hardware is very inflexible these days, from graphics cards to internal storage to connections and drivers etc.
If something breaks, you can't do much about it yourself.
Updating the machine is pretty much impossible.

I build my machines myself, decide how many USB etc. connections I want, how many internal harddrives, SDDs, Graphics cards (and from what vendor), how much RAM I need etc.
What I get is a machine that costs about a third of what Apple takes and it does exactly what I need and how I need it.
So I have 16 USB connections built in, can have up to 10 internal HDs, up to 4 graphics cards for rendering, it's very silent with a huge CPU cooler with 12 cm fans etc.
I can re-use older parts where it makes sense and am free to update individual parts whenever it's needed.
Works for me.

While there are some OSX-only apps I like, I never grew especially fond of OSX itself.
Here and there I replace the critical parts with more functional alternatives (finder/explorer, browser/mail ... ).

Microsofts latest direction with W10 makes me as cautious as what apple is doing for quite a while already.
Not too much difference when companies get that big.

Cheers,

Tom

madno
08-26-2015, 01:07 AM
Win user here. Advantage: freedom of choice. Many ready build or custom build systems available from PC vendors. Option to build a machine from scratch by myself. Freedom to choose AMD or Nvidia (or others). Freedom to add Tesla cards on request. Freedom to add as many CPUs as technically possible. Freedom to choose the type of CPU. Lots of software available. Extremly stable OS since Win7. Free to high end commercial firewall etc. packages available. Since later iterations of Win7 and driver updates from software vendors very good pen input support. With Win10 now a unified OS for tablet, notebook, desktop (no deviation between tablet or desktop; it's the same OS). Price.
Disadvantage (maybe), I don't feel fashionable ;-)
And now I take cover :-)))

JohnMarchant
08-26-2015, 03:59 AM
Overall i find build quality on Apple better as pre built systems go, be they laptop or desktop. That comes at a premium cost of course.

PC's are cheaper, more choice and upgradability. I prefer Mac OS overall and now with Windows 10 and MS jumping on the App/Store bandwagon im really wondering where this will go. Im always looking at Linux and wish that more of the software i use ran on Linux natively.

My last desktop was an own build because i could get what i wanted at a reasonable price and to my specs. Actually i could not at the time get a prebuild PC or Mac that came near spec wise what i got when i built it myself. My laptop which is 2.5 years old is still very powerful and again at the time i could not get a laptop with 32Gb Memory, 2 x Geforce Graphics cards, 1 x SSD and 2 x HDD. Ok its not Apple fashionable and build quality is not there with a Macbook Pro, but i paid 1700 and Apple did not even make a laptop at that time or now that comes with those specs prebuilt.

Saying that im seriously looking at a Macbook Pro next but will bootcamp it as i travel allot and the Laptop i have now has been great but it is heavy.

magiclight
08-26-2015, 06:38 AM
As already said, PC's are cheaper, but otherwise I don't think there is much difference, I have problems to see how people can buy a product from a company that refuse to follow any form of standard unless they own it (Quicktime) or do not have any other option (HTML5), it's the only company in the world that manufacture music players that cannot play MP3 files.... but that is also a matter of taste of course and we are all different, so maybe that is just me.

I would also think it's a question of other software you use together with LW and if it run's on PC, Mac or both.

JohnMarchant
08-26-2015, 06:52 AM
I do find Apple a little control freakery sometimes, however i can see MS with Win 10 going down this route, i hope not but i wont be surprised. Luckily the hardware wont for the foreseeable future. I'm always driven by the software demands as are most. LightWave is still more PC centric and especially third party plugins. Most of my software of choice is PC and indeed most of my hardware choice is as well.

Sorry no matter how hard they try im not going to call them Apps :):), that's just me.

hdace
08-26-2015, 07:28 AM
I run Mac OS on a nice powerful 18" Qosmio. Not as powerful as your Alienware, but close. I don't see why I can't have best of both worlds.

More powerful custom hardware (heavier laptop, self-built PCs) and the best OS.

Mind you I agree with several previous comments that both Apple & Microsoft are ruining their OS's. Each release is more "controlling" & baffling in their desperate attempts to make computers look like smartphones.

If you know what you're doing, hackintoshes are the way to go. Once you get good at it, there's very little problem with it. I've built or set-up about six now. All still running just fine.

bobakabob
08-26-2015, 09:19 AM
I love Dell workstations. Have used them since 1995. Perfect for apps like LW, Maya, AE, ZBrush, Premiere. They are a tad expensive but just work. If there are issues (which have been very rare in 20 years), support is exceptional with immediate response for a small premium. I admire people who build their own machines but I can't bear tinkering with electronics and even installing a hard drive induces the heebie jeebies.

Must say iMacs, iPads and iPhones are really nice but not so great for 3d. What are Apple doing at the high end with their bizarre looking 'cylinder'?

JohnMarchant
08-26-2015, 09:26 AM
Yeah gotta love the Dustbin, i saw one on a desktop once, wanted to put my pens in it.

I may look again at hackintosh, looked like a little more time than i was prepared to give it to set up.

However Win 10 at the moment seems good, but its early and time will tell.

Thomas Helzle
08-26-2015, 11:22 AM
My current Desktop took me relaxed 2 hours of fun to build from parts. It's not exactly rocketscience anymore if you buy decent parts.
To me it doesn't even feel like "tinkering with electronics", more like a kind of advanced lego.
It was more complicated in the past, but nowadays with almost everything but the GPU being part of the motherboard it's much easier.

But yeah, it's mostly a matter of taste and how comfortable you feel with doing stuff yourself vs. it being done by somebody else.
If you build yourself, you know a lot more about what is going on and what parts are in your machine, so even if something goes wrong, I find it easier to troubleshoot.
For my next job I'll probably buy an additional GPU for Thea Render. The worst that can happen is that I also need to upgrade the power supply.
I like that flexibility.

I never had too good experiences with pre-built/Mac computers, so that may be a factor too.

There is not really any good or bad in this in the end anyway, the only question is, if you can get what you need/want from a certain vendor and if you are more comfortable with one OS or another.

Cheers,

Tom

magiclight
08-27-2015, 02:18 AM
Windows 10 is nasty out of the box, but you can turn of most of the crap, if you only use a local account, turn of Cortana and Wifi sense, kill OneDrive and disable a few other options (you need to go the ad opt out website and uncheck also) it's pretty ok.

bobakabob
08-27-2015, 02:38 AM
My current Desktop took me relaxed 2 hours of fun to build from parts. It's not exactly rocketscience anymore if you buy decent parts.
To me it doesn't even feel like "tinkering with electronics", more like a kind of advanced lego.
It was more complicated in the past, but nowadays with almost everything but the GPU being part of the motherboard it's much easier.

But yeah, it's mostly a matter of taste and how comfortable you feel with doing stuff yourself vs. it being done by somebody else.
If you build yourself, you know a lot more about what is going on and what parts are in your machine, so even if something goes wrong, I find it easier to troubleshoot.
For my next job I'll probably buy an additional GPU for Thea Render. The worst that can happen is that I also need to upgrade the power supply.
I like that flexibility.

I never had too good experiences with pre-built/Mac computers, so that may be a factor too.

There is not really any good or bad in this in the end anyway, the only question is, if you can get what you need/want from a certain vendor and if you are more comfortable with one OS or another.

Cheers,

Tom

Thanks for that, Tom. I might have a go one day as your advanced Lego analogy sounds fun.

Thomas Helzle
08-27-2015, 09:07 AM
Thanks for that, Tom. I might have a go one day as your advanced Lego analogy sounds fun.

Yeah, I think this is actually one of the areas where one can take control at least partly.

As for advanced Lego: I don't have deep knowledge of electronics but have a good understanding about "how stuff works", what goes where, and what's what. And I'm not afraid to just do this kind of stuff.
Today's motherboards no longer need tiny switches to be set to define IRQs or other such voodoo. The Bios and OS's are clever enough to figure almost everything out on their own.
Cables are pretty much idiot proof, good power supplies have modular cables where you only plug in what you actually need, no longer a huge bunch of cables that make no sense.
HDs no longer need jumpers to be set and good cases don't even need screws for them, you just slide them in and lock them.
With a good CPU cooler (mine is huge and has two 12cm fans) you can easily overclock your machine.
RAM is prevented from being inserted the wrong way - you only have to make sure it fits under your CPU cooler (low profile).
I personally use a really big tower case, which makes everything much easier since you have more space.
Under the table I really don't care how big it is and this way it contains everything I need.

I just put in a new ASUS GeForce GTX 980 TI in today for Thea Render. Total installation time: 5 minutes. Driver was found automatically since I have a GTX 660 TI installed alongside already.
Now I can render about twice or three times as fast depending on the scene.

And the whole thing can't be heard when idle, when rendering on two GPUs and the CPU, you hear a bit of airstream, but not much either. And I even have the case open...

I would really encourage people to build their own machines, especially for rendering and as render nodes.
But buy really good stuff - you will still be 2-3 times cheaper than apple ;-)

Cheers,

Tom

yoshiii
08-29-2015, 10:53 PM
PC hardware has the potential to be more powerful, but the Mac OS is superior. Thus I have three Hackintoshes & one PC. I also started using Octane and I thanked someone upstairs that I used Nvidia cards because Octane wouldn't work with Macs' AMD GPUs. However, with Octane 3 coming out at the end of the year they're finally going to support AMD, so if you like the Mac Pro, I would go with that. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm getting one soon.

How does your Hackintoshs work with LW? I am thinking about doing the same thing.

cresshead
08-30-2015, 06:28 AM
Always a good flame war topic but I'll be looking to purchase a new workstation in a few months.

Please offer your opinion if you would stay with a Mac or is it time to switch to PC... based on GPU rendering, software options, and anything else uou think the future will bring

Both

I use a
1.win8 6 core i7
2.imac 21inch 2011 i5

both work well for what i need.

Use the mac for music production, video editing and compositing (logic pro X, premiere elements video, apple motion 5) plus photoshop elements
use the pc for 3ds max, blender, modo, lightwave zbrush and corel draw plus photoshop elements

my 'computer' isn't just about the 3d app as i need to make animatiics, add music and do some basic comping for projects.