PDA

View Full Version : 2015 Multi Layer tool support still not working after 3 updates



jboudreau
08-20-2015, 05:03 PM
Hi Guys

Can someone explain to me why it states in the lightwave manual that the new lightwave 2015 has multi layer tool support for bandsaw pro yet it hasn't worked from the beginning, and now we are 3 updates in (2015.3) just tested and it's still not fixed. LW3DG why are you stating something that just isn't true?

New to LightWave 2015. You can now Bandsaw polygons on multiple layers at once and the cuts
will be made on the same layer(s) as the original polygons

Thanks,
Jason

Snosrap
08-20-2015, 10:27 PM
It's worked for me since 2015 out of the gate. I just installed 2015.3 and have not been able to test it out yet, so hopefully it didn't get broken.

jboudreau
08-21-2015, 09:03 AM
Really!! I wonder why mine won't work and yours does. Was it working on the demo version of 2015 it not what version do you have it working on and are you on PC or MAC? I installed 2015.1, .2 and .3 and still the bandsaw pro tool will not work on multi layered objects. I'm using a PC incase that makes any difference.

Thanks,
Jason

jeric_synergy
08-21-2015, 09:36 AM
This is all too vague: post some pix and some LWOs so we can see how this is not working.

jboudreau
08-21-2015, 10:10 AM
Hi Guys

Here are some pics to demonstrate the issue

129367

129368

All I am basically doing is creating two identical objects, Putting one object in one layer and the other object in another layer. Then I make both layers active. I select polygons on both layers and activate the bandsaw pro too. The first object works but the second object gets deselected and no extra geometry is made. If you do the same procedure with the cut tool both objects get cut where the selected polygons are.

Hope this helps

Thanks,
Jason

jeric_synergy
08-21-2015, 10:14 AM
#aflw, Much clearer, and simple to replicate, thank you

seghier
08-21-2015, 10:19 AM
yes don't work

jboudreau
08-21-2015, 10:23 AM
yes don't work

Yeah it's crazy that it doesn't work but they say in the manual it's a new feature in lightwave 2015 but it has never ever worked.

Thanks,
Jason

jeric_synergy
08-21-2015, 10:27 AM
#aflw, Yeah, it's especially odd that they'd specifically trumpet it, if multiple people are having difficulties. :screwy:

jboudreau
08-21-2015, 10:39 AM
#aflw, Yeah, it's especially odd that they'd specifically trumpet it, if multiple people are having difficulties. :screwy:

When you say multiple people having difficulties does that mean it's working for you, I thought it didn't work for anybody?

If it works for you are you on mac?

Thanks,
Jason

Greenlaw
08-21-2015, 10:58 AM
Yeah, I can't get Bandsaw or Bandsaw Pro to work that way. I did find that Knife and Slice can cut across multiple active layers though--that's kinda cool.

Running on Windows.

Greenlaw
08-21-2015, 11:00 AM
Interesting: Quicksaw and the other variants seems to work across multiple levels. Wonder why Bandsaw doesn't? Maybe the old version got included by mistake?

Greenlaw
08-21-2015, 11:05 AM
Try Cut. It looks very similar to Bandsaw but with a few more options. Cut seems to work across multiple layers here...maybe this is the tool they're talking about?

jeric_synergy
08-21-2015, 12:23 PM
#aflw= "Away From LW", iow, "cannot test"

p1472, specifically tags Bandsaw Pro with the "respects layers" boilerplate text.

jboudreau
08-21-2015, 12:30 PM
#aflw= "Away From LW", iow, "cannot test"

p1472, specifically tags Bandsaw Pro with the "respects layers" boilerplate text.

okay sorry about that, I was wondering waht aflw meant lol

Thanks,
Jason

Greenlaw
08-21-2015, 02:02 PM
I know. I'm just saying that Cut is basically 'Bandsaw' but with additional features, plus it works across multiple layers, so maybe the reference to 'Bandsaw' in the manual is a typo.

I haven't asked directly to confirm but anybody can PM BeeVee about this if it really bothers them.

G.

129371

jeric_synergy
08-21-2015, 04:05 PM
Yeah, here as soon as you hit the button, it deselects the loop that was (manually in this case) selected second.

Additional weirdness is: after you Bandsaw, in points mode the new points are Selected (potentially very useful), but in Edge mode the new Edges are not. I'd think new Edges being selected would be also possibly useful, so maybe that's something they can add while they're fixing the big bugs.

Snosrap
08-21-2015, 05:07 PM
All I am basically doing is creating two identical objects, Putting one object in one layer and the other object in another layer. Then I make both layers active. I select polygons on both layers and activate the bandsaw pro too. The first object works but the second object gets deselected and no extra geometry is made. If you do the same procedure with the cut tool both objects get cut where the selected polygons are.
Yeah that isn't going to work. Because basically you're doing the same thing as if you created a sphere and selected a pair of quads along the top and then a pair along the bottom- it will only saw along one of the pairs not both.

jboudreau
08-21-2015, 05:13 PM
Yeah that isn't going to work. Because basically you're doing the same thing as if you created a sphere and selected a pair of quads along the top and then a pair along the bottom- it will only saw along one of the pairs not both.

Yeah so if that's the case why is the lw3dg stating it works now with multi-layers in 2015

Thanks,
Jason

Snosrap
08-21-2015, 09:20 PM
Yeah so if that's the case why is the lw3dg stating it works now with multi-layers in 2015

Thanks,
Jason

I think because he didn't fully understand what you were doing with selecting polys from both layers. In a perfect LW world that should indeed work, but the intent from NT is that you can use the bandsaw pro tool in its original design with multiple layers selected.

jboudreau
08-21-2015, 10:02 PM
Oh okay so before 2015 you couldn't?

jeric_synergy
08-22-2015, 01:06 AM
I think because he didn't fully understand what you were doing with selecting polys from both layers. In a perfect LW world that should indeed work, but the intent from NT is that you can use the bandsaw pro tool in its original design with multiple layers selected.
So, basically it's meaningless. 8~

We can at least hound them into included the new Edges get Selected, the way the new Points are.

Snosrap
08-22-2015, 08:25 AM
Oh okay so before 2015 you couldn't?

Before 2015 bandsaw pro would just freeze if you had additional layers selected.

Greenlaw
08-22-2015, 08:26 AM
I don't know what's up with Bandsaw but report it to LW3DG.

In the meantime use the Cut tool instead. It does exactly what's described.

1. Put a mesh in multiple layers.
2. Activate all layers you want to edit and select a couple of contiguous polygons from each mesh.
3. R-Arrow to loop.
4. Activate Cut. (Pics below.)

129391 129392 129397 129395

Unless I'm misunderstanding the issue, the only difference is step three where you need to press one key. No biggie.

G.

Snosrap
08-22-2015, 08:30 AM
So, basically it's meaningless. 8~

.

Not meaningless at all. Now you can be working with multiple layers selected and still use the tool.

jboudreau
08-22-2015, 08:53 AM
Before 2015 bandsaw pro would just freeze if you had additional layers selected.


Update:

Actually I don't think that's exactly true it will bandsaw with multiple layers selected as long as you are doing the bandsaw on the first original geometry you made. But you are right in previous versions of lightwave before 2015 if you try and bandsaw on any other extra geometry created bandsaw pro will not work. So this must be what they were talking about regarding new to 2015 regarding it now works with multiple layers.

for example

Lightwave 11.6.3

create a box in layer 1
create a ball in layer 2
activate both layers
select row of polygons on layer 1 (Box the original first model that was created)
bandsaw pro will work
now select a row of polygons on layer 2 (Ball which is the 2nd model that was created)
bandsaw pro will not work

In lightwave 2015 this is not a problem you can have multiple layers selected and still bandsaw pro on either the box or the ball

Thanks,
Jason

- - - Updated - - -


Not meaningless at all. Now you can be working with multiple layers selected and still use the tool.

You could already do that way back in 11.6.3, (I just tested it) so unless i'm mising something here there is nothing new there.

jboudreau
08-22-2015, 08:58 AM
I don't know what's up with Bandsaw but report it to LW3DG.

In the meantime use the Cut tool instead. It does exactly what's described.

1. Put a mesh in multiple layers.
2. Activate all layers you want to edit and select a couple of contiguous polygons from each mesh.
3. R-Arrow to loop.
4. Activate Cut. (Pics below.)

129391 129392 129397 129395

Unless I'm misunderstanding the issue, the only difference is step three where you need to press one key. No biggie.

G.


Thanks, That's awesome that you can use the cut tool to do this.

Thanks,
Jason

jboudreau
08-22-2015, 09:18 AM
I don't know what's up with Bandsaw but report it to LW3DG.

In the meantime use the Cut tool instead. It does exactly what's described.

1. Put a mesh in multiple layers.
2. Activate all layers you want to edit and select a couple of contiguous polygons from each mesh.
3. R-Arrow to loop.
4. Activate Cut. (Pics below.)

129391 129392 129397 129395

Unless I'm misunderstanding the issue, the only difference is step three where you need to press one key. No biggie.

G.


The cut tool is way more powerful than that bandsaw pro tool because of the following. I don't think I will ever use bandsaw pro again now that the new cut tool is way better in 2015

- Will actually cut polygons on multiple layers (Bandsaw pro will not)
- Will cut multiple rows of polygons on the same object (Bandsaw pro will not)
- from what I can tell it can do all the same things Bandsaw pro can do and more
- You can move your cuts interactively by just clicking on the cut and dragging it right to left (New to lightwave 2015) won't work this way in 11.6.3
- It's way faster because when editing the cuts it doesn't keep redrawing the seletion. bandsaw pro does and makes it very slow

So why exactly do we have the bandsaw pro tool when the cut tool does the same plus more? Does anyone know what the bandsaw pro tool will do that the cut tool can't?
the only thing I can see is the bandsaw pro tool has presets and the value is based on % rather than a decimal point system. Is there anything else?

Thanks,
Jason

jeric_synergy
08-22-2015, 10:28 AM
You can always deprecate it in your personal menus-- in fact I recommend it to cement Cut in your memory.

tischbein3
08-22-2015, 10:45 AM
So why exactly do we have the bandsaw pro tool when the cut tool does the same plus more? Does anyone know what the bandsaw pro tool will do that the cut tool can't?
the only thing I can see is the bandsaw pro tool has presets and the value is based on % rather than a decimal point system. Is there anything else?

Thanks,
Jason
Might be wrong, but I think Cut does not support UV

chris

jeric_synergy
08-22-2015, 12:33 PM
Might be wrong, but I think Cut does not support UV
chris
Vraiment? That would be a tough one to lose.

(Yes, I'm practicing my French.)

spherical
08-22-2015, 03:34 PM
So, basically it's meaningless. 8~

We can at least hound them into included the new Edges get Selected, the way the new Points are.

An extra click, but won't Convert Selection get them?

jeric_synergy
08-22-2015, 03:55 PM
Why would I request an extra click? That's what COMPUTERS ARE FOR.

jwiede
08-23-2015, 07:30 PM
Might be wrong, but I think Cut does not support UV

If true, that seems like a bug with the Cut tool. IMO, there's no valid justification left for relevant Modeler tools to still not respect UV maps.

Can you think of any (useful) case where the user would want to cut geometry but not reflect those cuts (and resultant new geometry) in an already-associated UV map? What purpose would that serve? Moreover, if such a use existed, a switch in Cut for "ignore UV maps" would seem to better serve that need over requiring a completely separate tool.

Greenlaw
08-23-2015, 07:45 PM
Just tried it. UV maps look correctly preserved to me.

129445

tischbein3
08-23-2015, 07:57 PM
Just tried it. UV maps look correctly preserved to me.

129445
Strange, Just I tried it with a cube, wich was atlas unrwapped and it does not work correctly, using a flat plane it works
(so is this a bug, with discontinued UV surfaces ?)




If true, that seems like a bug with the Cut tool. IMO, there's no valid justification left for relevant Modeler tools to still not respect UV maps.
Seems to be a bug






EDIT: reported

Greenlaw
08-23-2015, 09:35 PM
Oh, yeah, it's probably the Atlas mapping. Discontinuous UVs have caused problems for me with other tools in the past so I generally avoid Atlas mapping unless I really don't care how the UV's are applied.

It does sound like a bug though. Thanks for catching that and reporting it.

G.

Lewis
08-24-2015, 05:11 AM
Hi Guys

Here are some pics to demonstrate the issue


Well that's not what THIS multilayer support means and that's why are you confused by this change :).

It's not gonna bandsaw both layers at once (same as it won't 2 different selections on single layer). IT means that now you can have multiple layers selected while bandsawing. Previously you couldn't do bandsaw on single layer unless you drop other layer selections. That's what's fixed.

Lewis
08-24-2015, 05:15 AM
So why exactly do we have the bandsaw pro tool when the cut tool does the same plus more? Does anyone know what the bandsaw pro tool will do that the cut tool can't?
the only thing I can see is the bandsaw pro tool has presets and the value is based on % rather than a decimal point system. Is there anything else?


1 more thign, pretty important (at least for me) is that BandsawPRO works with numeric panel i.e. it's non modal tool so you CAN tumble view while adjusting settings and with cut tool you can't since it' has it's own popup panel (LScript) so it's locked until you hit OK/Cancel :(.

Greenlaw
08-24-2015, 09:31 AM
That kinda makes sense to me and I think you're right.

What throws me off now is that Cut seems to literally perform how we interpreted the manual's description of Bandsaw Pro, and then some, (and then less.)

I think the whole idea of Bandsaw might need to be reworked just one more time to incorporate all of the good things about these tools. Currently there are way too many variations of Bandsaw and Cut in Modeler, and they all do basically the same thing (but with more and fewer features.)

What we really need is just one Bandsaw Ultimate tool. Modeler's menus are really getting over-crowded these days.

G.

Lewis
08-24-2015, 09:52 AM
What we really need is just one Bandsaw Ultimate tool. Modeler's menus are really getting over-crowded these days.

G.

No need to tell me that, I'm asking for cosolidation and merge of modeling tools literarly for at last 6-7 years.

This is the address you need to send your concerns - https://www.lightwave3d.com/account/report/submit/

:D :D

Chris S. (Fez)
08-24-2015, 10:20 AM
What we really need is just one Bandsaw Ultimate tool. Modeler's menus are really getting over-crowded these days.

G.

Yes please.

jeric_synergy
08-24-2015, 10:47 AM
What we really need is just one Bandsaw Ultimate tool. Modeler's menus are really getting over-crowded these days.
G.
Time to make the list of the UNION of the good features.*

#aflw, but is Cut totally un-interactive? --What's the total # of bandsaw-y tools? I think maybe two would be advisable: one very fast but underfeatured, like Edit Edges, the other heavier, slower, but with a boatload of features, aka BandsawPro+. Sometimes doing a quick thing 3 times is superior to doing a slow thing once.

*and add desirable features, like "leave new Edges selected", as points are now.

Greenlaw
08-24-2015, 11:19 AM
...but is Cut totally un-interactive?
I'm not sure I understand. To me, Cut seems to be more interactive than Bandsaw Pro...at least with Cut I can grab the dividers directly, slide them around, and see the changes update interactively on the mesh. With Bandsaw Pro I need to drag on the value box for each selected divider--it's kind of annoying actually because the old Bandsaw behaves the way Cut does. But that's nothing new--I think it's been like that for a long time.


--What's the total # of bandsaw-y tools?
Well, there's Bandsaw, Bandsaw Pro, the aforementioned Cut, and it looks like seven subset tools. I count at least 10...but I only glanced at the menu so I might have missed some. ;)

G.

jeric_synergy
08-24-2015, 12:01 PM
Greenlaw, you have the reputation to get this heard, so please make that list. (I'm still lobbying for one quick and one extensive tool, for a total of two.)

Greenlaw
08-24-2015, 02:00 PM
Will do.

TBH, I hadn't really given it a lot of thought until I started using Modeler on a tablet computer where the 'crowdiness' has gotten hard to ignore. :p

G.

jeric_synergy
08-24-2015, 03:47 PM
There's other things to consider: training for example. Trying to educate new users as to the MANY and INCONSISTENT considerations as to which of the Bandsaw-y tools one should use is, to say the least, not fun, and it just slows down the whole process of learning.

Getting it down to "If you just need a couple cuts, use this, but if you need something fancy, use this" would be, ahem, desirable.

Most of my slicing needs are met by Edit Edges. :bowdown: It's my BFF. --Pity it doesn't respect Selection. :devil:

Snosrap
08-24-2015, 07:04 PM
1 more thing, pretty important (at least for me) is that BandsawPRO works with numeric panel i.e. it's non modal tool so you CAN tumble view while adjusting settings and with cut tool you can't since it' has it's own popup panel (LScript) so it's locked until you hit OK/Cancel :(.

Yep - if I can't tumble and rotate my view while the tool is active, I'm pretty much not using the tool.

Greenlaw
08-24-2015, 11:00 PM
You're right. I guess I've never needed to tumble the object when using any version of Bandsaw so I never noticed.

But I guess that also means being able to tumble while using Bandsaw is kind of a non-issue for me. I much rather prefer the 'click and drag on the dividers' interactivity of Cut, which I've never been able to do with Pro. But maybe that's just me. :p

I just now double-checked to make sure I wasn't just making this up and, yeah, Cut's interactivity seems more direct to me--it doesn't update till I release the mouse but I can click and drag any dividing line directly with a single click.

Bandsaw Pro, on the other hand, requires me to select a divider and then drag on the numerical box control instead. It's an extra step to a different section of the UI panel--to me, that's a bit clunky in comparison to Cut. Also, Bandsaw Pro flickers like crazy when I drag on the value box control. (Might be a video card issue though--is anybody else seeing that?)

G.

Snosrap
08-25-2015, 11:25 AM
My main use of BandsawPro is adding loops to tighten my edges on subD objects so interactivity is very important. And yes - it flickers. :)

Greenlaw
08-25-2015, 11:36 AM
Thanks for confirming the flicker. I'm seeing it on a couple of different computers with different graphics chips, so it's probably not a card/driver issue.

pinkmouse
08-25-2015, 02:32 PM
Flicker on Mac too! :)

spherical
08-25-2015, 03:52 PM
Actually, all tools flicker. Those that are "activate and drop" flicker once. Interactives flicker a lot. The screen has to refresh every time something changes. BandsawPro is just slow enough in refreshing that you can see it. Move the value slider quickly over a significant distance and you can watch the many iterations draw from the buffer. Stop and/or reverse direction, and the last iteration shows as selected. Just tried a number of driver settings, VSynch Off, VSynch Adaptive, Anisotropic Off, etc., and no difference. So, no, most probably not a card/driver issue but, rather, the BP code needs optimization so it sends updates to the card faster.

jeric_synergy
08-25-2015, 07:52 PM
Or, is smarter about what gets re-drawn, and when.