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Dennik
08-19-2015, 01:06 PM
I spent all day grooming a character with this thing in layout. Lovely tool, but crashes a lot with no warnings. What can I give it to stop crashing? Cookies maybe?

prometheus
08-19-2015, 01:22 PM
I spent all day grooming a character with this thing in layout. Lovely tool, but crashes a lot with no warnings. What can I give it to stop crashing? Cookies maybe?

Dont use it..it doesnīt like me either. :)

Unfortunatly...we do not know what lightwave version you have to track it down, the latest versions had some changes and different bugs etc.
The fiberfx tool must be giving the lw team hell as it does for many of us in instability, it will haunt them for a while til it is sorted out, or replaced completly.
it could be a nice tool, but itīs not there yet.

I really donīt like the grooming tools in layout either, you might be better of in efficiency to shape it in modeler, but in workflow and stability.

Dennik
08-19-2015, 01:34 PM
I still have the latest 11.63 version. I haven't upgraded yet. Wondering if its any more stable in LW 2015.

Dennik
08-19-2015, 01:58 PM
WTF??? I just noticed, not only does it crash, it also loses whatever style I updated, even after I saved my progress with the scene. This doesn't make any sense at all.


edit: scratch that. I bet it saves with the object instead. Stupid me thinking it saves with the scene. There are too many point coordinates in the grooming style. It only makes sense that it saves with the object file.

Greenlaw
08-19-2015, 04:26 PM
FiberFX in 11.5 worked well for me. Back then I did a couple of commercial jobs with it and started work on a short film using it. Edit guides worked okay in 11.5 but I had issues with rendering with Edit Guides. To work around this, I started using FiberMesh for guides. There's more about this in the Production Log thread (link below.)

When 11.6 came out, it broke a few critical FiberFX features for me so I stopped using it. The recently released LightWave 2015.3 fixes those things so I've started using it again.

A couple of weeks ago, a friend of mine needed long hair FiberFX with dynamics for a feature film he was supervising, and I helped him out by creating a proof of concept for one of his animators to study. I used Edit Guides in 2015.3 for the long hair and Bullet for the dynamics. When I was working on the proof, Edit Guides did crash on me once but other than that, it seemed pretty stable. The final render looked good too. My friend seemed very happy with the proof.

We're not using Edit Guides on our current project because we already had guides setup from a couple of years ago, but I am considering using Edit Guides for long hair on our next short film. Still evaluating this but so far the tests have been pretty good.

And yes, you need to save your object when using Edit Guides--this is because the vmaps it generates are an object property. there's more info about this in the manual.

Be sure the save the FiberFX settings as well. I usually save multiple versions of my settings so I have the option to go to an earlier look in case I change my mind.

Another tip: If you have a lot of guides, I would avoid saving more than one style to an object. When I was playing around with this, it seemed to get less stable when I embedded more than one style.

If you have a scene that crashes a lot, be sure to package the content and submit it through your user account to LW3DG. Also, make sure you list very clear steps for reproducing the crash. They can't fix what they don't know about.

All I can add to that is that they've fixed a ton of stuff I've asked for over the years, so they do look at those reports.

G.

Dennik
08-19-2015, 05:49 PM
FiberFX in 11.5 worked well for me. Back then I did a couple of commercial jobs with it and started work on a short film using it. Edit guides worked okay in 11.5 but I had issues with rendering with Edit Guides. To work around this, I started using FiberMesh for guides. There's more about this in the Production Log thread (link below.)

When 11.6 came out, it broke a few critical FiberFX features for me so I stopped using it. The recently released LightWave 2015.3 fixes those things so I've started using it again.

A couple of weeks ago, a friend of mine needed long hair FiberFX with dynamics for a feature film he was supervising, and I helped him out by creating a proof of concept for one of his animators to study. I used Edit Guides in 2015.3 for the long hair and Bullet for the dynamics. When I was working on the proof, Edit Guides did crash on me once but other than that, it seemed pretty stable. The final render looked good too. My friend seemed very happy with the proof.

We're not using Edit Guides on our current project because we already had guides setup from a couple of years ago, but I am considering using Edit Guides for long hair on our next short film. Still evaluating this but so far the tests have been pretty good.

And yes, you need to save your object when using Edit Guides--this is because the vmaps it generates are an object property. there's more info about this in the manual.

Be sure the save the FiberFX settings as well. I usually save multiple versions of my settings so I have the option to go to an earlier look in case I change my mind.

Another tip: If you have a lot of guides, I would avoid saving more than one style to an object. When I was playing around with this, it seemed to get less stable when I embedded more than one style.

If you have a scene that crashes a lot, be sure to package the content and submit it through your user account to LW3DG. Also, make sure you list very clear steps for reproducing the crash. They can't fix what they don't know about.

All I can add to that is that they've fixed a ton of stuff I've asked for over the years, so they do look at those reports.

G.

Yeah, I have been cloning the mesh inside the FiberFX panel to apply slightly different styles at different parts of the face, like hair, beard, eyelashes eyebrows etc, and activating the respective surfaces for each. The autosizing feature for the guides is very very annoying. If the head is attached to the rest of the body, it assumes the guides need to be body height long. If I make the mistake to change the model a bit, its possible that it will crash or the guides will freak out and I'll have to reset them. Very finicky... I will go ahead tonight and separate the surfaces for the FFX in another layer, and see if I can still replace those same polygons after I get done adding morphs to the original model. Maybe it will work maybe it will not.

Dodgy
08-19-2015, 06:36 PM
The groomed style now saves in a custom Vmap within the object, so you'll have to save the object to retain your style.

jwiede
08-20-2015, 02:29 AM
Dont use it..it doesnīt like me either. :)

I'm convinced the only person it even really "tolerates" is Greenlaw.

Greenlaw
08-20-2015, 09:57 AM
I give it treats and rub its belly occasionally.

Dennik
08-20-2015, 10:17 AM
The groomed style now saves in a custom Vmap within the object, so you'll have to save the object to retain your style.

Yep. Saving the objects is the only time I could salvage from it crashing. Its still crashing even with individual FFX entries, on individual layers. Can't really say what causes it. It usually happens after I hit F9 though.

Greenlaw
08-20-2015, 11:02 AM
Hmm...I'll look into that on this end.

I've been experimenting with the Edit Guides in 2015.3 lately but mainly with just one instance on a character's head. That 'proof of concept' scene I mentioned was for cg hair replacement for live action so I only dealt with long head hair, no additional facial hair setups. I'll try something with more layers this weekend and get back to you.

If it works out for me, I'll post what I did to get there. If it doesn't work, I'll send a new report to LW3DG.

One video game cinematic I used FiberFX on had a character with thinning head hair and crazy eyebrows. I didn't use Edit Guides at the time but the guides setup involved different layers of guides for the head hair and eyebrows. (From what I recall, this character was a mix of FiberFX Strand Modeler and Modo hair guides imported to Modeler. I would have used FiberMesh but it just been released and I didn't have time to learn it during that job.) Separating the guides to layers allowed me to use very different properties for each part of the hair. Even the scalp had different properties--short and fuzzy hair grown from the surface and longer strands using the guides. Just a thought but you might consider doing the same with Edit Guides using FiberFX Polygonize. This might simplify any memory issues you might be running into. I'm not saying that this is what you should do because I can see it introducing a few complications but it might be worth looking into.

G.

Farhad_azer
08-23-2015, 05:09 AM
Dear Greenlaw, have u ever used fiberfx to make grass on objects that have big lengths? (ground for example) is it good for this purposes?

sorry for going off topic but is sasquatch still available so that we can combine it with fiberfx?

Dodgy
08-23-2015, 06:20 PM
It's better to use instances for grass, they'll look more realistic and instancing is better with memory.

Trying Sas and FFX together crashes my LW, so I would say you can't combine them unfortunately.

Greenlaw
08-23-2015, 10:08 PM
I've used it for grass in small tests but, like Dodgy, I don't think it's the best tool for grass. You'll be much better off using instances.

G.

Farhad_azer
08-24-2015, 12:49 AM
Thanks Dodgy and Greenlaw,

I wish the bug that u mentioned will be fixed. it would be super cool to have both (or even instance also) to make grass.

Where can I buy at least the demo (smaller version) of sasquatch? it used to be somewhere in earlier versions of LW.

Greenlaw
08-24-2015, 03:15 AM
If you have an old 9.6 license, I suppose you could try copying it over to a newer LightWave. I'm not sure that will actually work though; Sasquatch is a pretty old plugin.

It might be more practical to just send your scene camera to 9.6 and render Sasquatch grass in a separate pass for compositing. Just remember that you'll need to use Classic Camera for Sasquatch or you may see bad aa issues.

TBH, I still think you'll be better off using instances. It should look more realistic and will probably render faster too.

G.

jwiede
08-24-2015, 03:59 AM
Most of the Worley plugins stopped working on Mac as of 9.6.1 and the Cocoa changeover. AFAIK, many worked on Win LW up through LW11 to some extent -- I recall Sas had increasing issues and limitations after the shading/lighting sampling changes in LW11, but believe it could still be made to function. I don't have 2015, but recall encountering problems with the demo and Sas.

Farhad_azer
08-24-2015, 11:56 AM
Dear Greenlaw, i can not use those solutions that u mentioned. i am happy that u said u believe better results could be achieved by instancing. plz don't get me wrong but are u certain of this? sasquatch used to be so easy and fast and the results (even with default settings) were so natural and cool.

Mr.Jwiede is right. i hope this will be fixed.

jwiede
08-24-2015, 12:34 PM
i am happy that u said u believe better results could be achieved by instancing. plz don't get me wrong but are u certain of this?

It all depends on your precise usage case. If you wish to produce something like a field of grasses, or a bunch of undergrowth/grass between trees, then instancing "patches" of grass or mixed plants is generally the more efficient/reliable approach for LW (there are a few minor exceptions depending on plants' movement needs).

If you can provide a few more details about your requirements (still/vid? do instanced plants need animation? how many variants? etc) that will allow others to give you better-tuned recommendations on how to address those requirements.

(edit) Given how long it has been since last Sasquatch update, further fixes/improvements seem quite unlikely. I maintained some hope for a long time as well, but as time passed, it faded.

Greenlaw
08-24-2015, 01:22 PM
Here's a nice example of instanced grass that was posted some time ago by Zardoz:

Grass (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?135912-Grass&highlight=grass)

Here's a different thread comparing LW Instancing with DP Instance for grass. It should give you some idea of how it can look:

LW Instancer vs DP Instancer (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?135673-LW-Instancer-vs-DPInstancer&highlight=instancing+grass)

I think Steve Hurley did a nice demo a while back using his AP tool to spray instances of grass and flowers. I'm not sure where that was though...you can probably search for it in the forums.

These examples may be using different tools for placing the instances but I think they all use the same native Lightwave instancing engine for rendering the grass.

Here's a pretty interesting thread that gets into instanced grass:

How to get Lightwave grass like Modo grass (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?135212-How-to-get-Lightwave-Grass-like-MODO-Grass&highlight=instancing+grass)

For FiberFX, I think this is nice example:

FiberFX grass and rocks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDP2tbw3MEg)

The thing with FiberFX is that you don't want to cover an entire landscape with it. It's simply not the right tool for it--instancing is better. Also, as previously mentioned, up close FiberFX will have the same issues as Sasquatch in that it's basically shaded paint strokes, so there is no actual grass detail or shading. Naturally, if you're not going to get that close the blades, it can look pretty convincing.

I think many users use different techniques depending on how far the grass is from the camera. For a few landscape jobs I've worked on, I've mixed techniques in the same scene. Sometimes I have even instanced simple clip mapped cards with real grass images and they looked fine, plus they rendered super fast.

As mentioned earlier, I have used Sasquatch for grass on a few jobs many years ago. I thought it worked great in its time and it was nice that you could apply dynamics directly to it. The main issues were that it was tricky to light, and up close it really didn't look like grass at all--it was just painted 'strokes' with shading. (Basically it's what you get nowadays when using FiberFX for grass.) Also, because you need to use Classic Camera for proper AA, it was kinda slow to render by today's standards. The big advantage is that you could cover a large area with the stuff very easily but it had it's limitations too.

My own example of instanced grass was created for a cartoon short project (https://vimeo.com/channels/littlegreendog/68543424), so it's not mean to be realistic at all and isn't really appropriate in this context. However, I did cheat some nice wind dynamics with it. :)

Naturally, the quality of the instanced grass depends on what you feed into the engine and how well you light the scene.

Hope this helps.

G.

Farhad_azer
08-25-2015, 03:46 AM
thanks jwiede and Greenlaw for ur excellent advices.

Dear jwiede, I made a simple outdoor scene long time ago and it is somewhere in my hard disk. I promise to upload it as soon as I find but as a graduated of technical science who can not make distinction between beautiful rose and a potato from aesthetic viewpoint it was a masterpiece. I swear I don't remember how I made it but I guess default settings of sasquatch was enough to make that revolutionary moment in my life. I will definitely post it in very post later.

I think trying to get the same effect with instance (or fiberfx) will require modeling and setting density and other stuffs and will require rendering.

Farhad_azer
09-04-2015, 09:18 AM
This is the masterpiece that I created long time ago. I accidentally found it.

129594

Now I am convinced that instancing is good and in most cases better option for grass but sasquatch had the advantage that It was added as post process if I am not wrong and was faster IMO. I might be wrong thu as this was long time ago.

the thread initiated by Mr. Zardoz was excellent (the one Greenlaw introduced to us) I hope I will be able to achieve sth like that.