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wvp
12-05-2003, 05:47 PM
http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/Htm/DVEditHomeSet1.htm
This article is about real time editing systems, but once again Newtek & the toaster are not even mentioned!!

Jim_C
12-05-2003, 06:07 PM
Yea its kind of getting ridiculous.

Maybe Newtek has to incorporate a 'rendering hell' to be considered 'Real Time'. The others did.

videoguy
12-05-2003, 07:02 PM
this is a travesty. digital media net needs to wake up and smell the toast. look at the poll they had the toaster was top on it. maybe we need to email them and let them know we are here and are wanting to be heard. i higly recomend you guys submit the toaster for videography's product showcase 2003 the toaster deserves it more then any other product. on what other editing system can i switch a program with 8 component cameras record it all to the hard drives edit it do 3d graphics with lightwave composite it with aura and tedit all with out ever leavinng one suite of tools all by the same compnay by the same programmers who are acutally users and editors. and have the greatest online communtiy on the planet and the best free tech support ever.

Jim Capillo
12-05-2003, 10:53 PM
ESPECIALLY after NT started advertising on the site.... you'd think they'd be butt lickin'.

Go and vote on the site and also vote for the showcase.

ted
12-05-2003, 11:04 PM
This is really starting to tick me off also.
I think we should....:mad: I better not say it or I'll be arrested.
I'll make sure and fire off a few e-mails.

Here's what I sent to everyone I could find an e-mail address for:

Dear sir,
I was wondering why you seem to ignore NewTek's VT3 in all your editing solution articles? Is it oversight or intentional?
Even your poll suggests "Video Toaster" is used by far more of your readers then ANY OTHER system, yet you still ignore us users and our beloved tool when reviewing video solutions. Even in the poll, you still call it "Video Toaster". Please catch up to the current VT3 power.

I have been creating Professional Broadcast Productions for 27 years. I currently own 3 of NewTek's VT3's, (Video Toasters), and my high end clients LOVE what we can do compared to our competition.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just hoping somehow, this is an oversight and your staff will see what a disservice you are doing to your readers by not including VT3 in your comparisons. It's affordable, real time, powerful and it was the original that got the others going. How can you ignore it?

Please pass this on and respond. I really am curious.

Jim Capillo
12-06-2003, 04:50 AM
Well put, Ted. If you don't mind, I'll cut and paste it and send it in, too.

Of course, I'll sign my own name to it - the nuns taught me how to spell, too...... ;) :D

(Only kidding - I'll send my own in !!!!)

Jim Capillo
12-06-2003, 05:21 AM
PS. For all of you who feel the hankering to fire off a missive, the contact page on their website contains all the bigwig's emails. Send a copy to each of 'em.

Only takes a few minutes - show 'em how many there are of us out here.

*The Digital Media Net headlines blare - "Media 100 installs their 300th 844/X system"*

BFD - my dealer has probably sold that many VT[3]'s HIMSELF...... :p

Strength in numbers, my friends...... strength in numbers. :)

tmon
12-06-2003, 05:30 AM
Charlie White did do a favorable review a while back, but it's true, VT[3] is always treated as a beast unto itself, which in fact it is...but in a good way. This doesn't make it proper to ignore VT-Edit though.

Want to get riled up some more? How about when people completely dismiss the truth and make outright false statements. For example, claims about how they are the "first" to do "seven simultaneous streams of full-quality, uncompressed SD video, in real time..."

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2003/11_nov/features/cw_apple_fcp41.htm

Jim Capillo
12-06-2003, 09:11 AM
Well Taiji, that's just Apple spewing their crap.

Here's more: "But really, what’s available today is speed improvements for real time, being able to do it 40% better than anything done on a Windows machine."

Ya right.

I'd LOVE for someone to put together a head-to-head shootout with FCP. Put it to bed once and for all. THEN let them try and make all their ridiculous claims. :eek:

videoguy
12-06-2003, 09:40 AM
me too maybe we should email them and request that they do a shoot out between a g5 with final cut and a dual 4 t3 system and see who comes out on top

MediaSig
12-06-2003, 12:34 PM
....you know...

If they do a comparison, the focus won't be on jus real-time, but the other editing features included. Where VT3 might come ahead in real-time power plus 3D software and Aura, it's gonna hit a wall when compared to lack of some major editing features (lack of definieable tracks, 3 wheel color correction), the CG is another subject (comapred to Final Cut's software), etc...

Don't mean to knock it - I know we're all doing a lot of things with VT at the moment, but I'm sure the're gonna focus a comparison on the editing aspects. Not all editors want to be 3D animators and vise versa.

...just a thoguht

Greg

Jim Capillo
12-06-2003, 01:00 PM
Well, I think the whole point of this thread is that the VT[3] gets little to no recognition in these rags, whether it's because of ignorance or internal advertiser "preferences". ANY splash is better than no splash, IMHO.

Personally, I think the VT[3] would hold up quite nicely in an unbiased shootout. Sure, it doesn't do all the same things in the same way FCP does, but then again, we're not using FCP as the benchmark either, right? Like any product, VT[3] has its strengths and weaknesses (CG admittedly being one of them).

Given the cost vs. performance (what I can accomplish with this whole package) as well as VT's relative youth vs. the competition, I can't believe that any unbiased editor/writer wouldn't like what he sees in the VT suite of apps.

ted
12-06-2003, 03:41 PM
WOW! I just got an overnight reply from Charlie White, author of the article...
http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2003/10_oct/reviews/cw_vt3_review.htm

He did a fairly good assessment of VT3. I did reply that one article doesn't indicate VT3 gets equal time, but thanked him for his time. It was nice of him to respond.

I suggest we take every opportunity to share our frustration whenever some trade rag ignores VT.
You'd be surprised how the editors will suddenly start bringing VT into their articles and evaluations.

Just be sure to be polite and professional. We don't want them to know how crazy we actually are!!!:cool:

wvp
12-06-2003, 10:49 PM
Yeah Ted I saw that article.

I did reply that one article doesn't indicate VT3 gets equal time, but thanked him for his time.
I agree totally. In fact this was my point for starting the thread. I mentioned elsewhere a while ago how VT is seldom mentioned when editing systems are discussed/reviewed.
With all due respect to MR. White, he is not doing justice to his own web site when he leaves out VT3 in an article talking about real time editing.

ScorpioProd
12-06-2003, 11:15 PM
But isn't part of the reason that the VT[3] isn't included in "real-time NLE" reviews simply due to it being a "full production studio-in-a-box" and not "just" an NLE?

Most of the reviews that there have been about the VT[3] have focused a lot more on the live uses than the NLE uses. This isn't surprising considering that the VT[3] is one of a kind in what it is. The rest really are "just" NLEs while the VT[3] isn't.

For better or worse, it's apples and oranges.

Jim Capillo
12-07-2003, 08:16 AM
Well, yes and no Eugene.

True, the VT is a suite of apps, but within that suite is a full-fledged NLE - which should be judged on the same stage as the stand alones. If anything, the VT should be viewed as a spectacular value, given those multi suites and relatively low cost. I still believe the reason that first the Toaster/Flyer and now the VT[X] has been ignored is that Newtek has a small advertising budget, especially compared to the big boys. The trade rags/erags (who need the ad revenue as their first source of cash - you get them for free, right?) recognize this and will smooze the guys who are spending the money with them, which is usually not Newtek. That's just the way it works pretty much everywhere. For instance, I'll do a dub for free for my long term clients - but the guy who just comes in off the street (or worse, one who has done work with another house and needs something done "quick" but cannot get in at his usual place) gets charged full freight..... or told I don't have time.

I believe that is our issue.

I also received a reply from Mr. White, and while he was very nice, he seemed annoyed and suggested that Newtek itself was behind the emails and what he called "ballot stuffing" of their poll on the site. I replied that I don't remember anyone from NT ever suggesting that we stuff the ballot box, but also suggested that it would be pretty easy to make it difficult (or impossible) for anyone to vote more than once. I also pointed out that the 4,000 or so votes that the VT has as of now probably accurately represents the 5 or 6 thousand in the field (I'm guessing at that number, no one from NT has told me anything). If they stated on the site to vote only once and/or made it technically difficult to vote more than once, then they might end up with just a couple hundred total votes. I would suggest that 10,000+ votes looks a heck of a lot better to potential advertisers than 250 does. So they complain that we are stuffing the box but are loving it all in the same moment....... :rolleyes:

With that, I would suggest that everyone take a second and go stuff the ballot box even further - http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/Htm/DVEditHomeSet1.htm

:D :p

videoguy
12-07-2003, 09:38 AM
maybe we should suggest that he vist the toaster community and see the posts for himself

wvp
12-07-2003, 09:39 AM
And here is my email to Mr. White (I wanted to send a copy to Donetta Colboch, Newtek's executive vice president of sales and marketing, but I could not find a email address for her so I sent it to good ol' Paul Lara):

Dear Mr. White,
Recently I read your article about real time editing. Noticing that the Newtek VT3 was not mentioned, I posted this comment on the Newtek VT board http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14769&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

That sparked a series of comments by fellow VT users, some of which sent emails to you. I can assure you that Newtek is not behind this. I am the one that started the thread and I do not work for Newtek. In fact I own 1 of their VT3 systems and my company owns 2 more (thanks to me). My company also owns a Final Cut 4 system.

I created that thread because I have come to realize that Newtek, while being one the creators of desktop editing, is not a large company. Their advertising and marketing budgets are infinitesimal compared to the likes of Apple, Adobe, Sony, etc.

I will freely admit that there are some very nice features in Final Cut, features I would love to see in VT. Adobe Premier includes a number a filters, again something that would be great in VT. As great as these other programs are they do not offer me the ability to do live switching (which also allows me to edit tape to tape long form projects) nor do they offer the uncompressed quality the VT does. Throw in the power of Aura and Lightwave and the whole package becomes quite a value. (It is nice to see Final Cut finally offering some "real" real time editing capability).

While it would be nice for the VT3 to be included in these articles, I understand that your company needs to focus on those that advertise with them. Lack of mention in your article takes validity away from the system I use. I will forward this email to Newtek but I also hope you will be able to include them in future editing articles.

videoguy
12-07-2003, 09:52 AM
i sent him the link as well and suggested he visit many of the toast communties becuase they in fact are one of the toasters best features

ScorpioProd
12-07-2003, 10:15 AM
I agree completely that it is a full suite, and that the NLE could be fully judged on its own. Definately.

BUT, it's a simple fact that the NLE can't be bought on its own. And although many of us see the advantage of the full suite, and without question it is a great deal, I would say most NLE users are looking for ONLY an NLE.

Jim Capillo
12-07-2003, 10:25 AM
Oh yes..... and I would certainly buy one tomorrow if I could have it on a laptop !!!!

But I still can't see disqualifying it from these articles just because it comes bundled with other apps.

"If it looks like a NLE and smells like a NLE, then......."

;) :D

tmon
12-10-2003, 06:46 AM
Along the same lines.....sort of?

http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/

ted
12-10-2003, 10:32 AM
Eugene, bless you my friend, but YOU"RE WRONG!;)
While we live predominately in the NLE world day in and day out, we often utilize many other features of VT3.
Especially the switcher for switching sources to and from other decks, edit systems etc.
We use Aura on a smaller level, but it's great for how we use it.
We use LightWave some, but we are getting deeper into using it weekly.
Then there's the CG, well OK, I can honestly say we've used it about twice.:mad:

It's kina like a car, sure, any car can get you where you want to go, but having a DVD player in my SUV doesn't take it out of the SUV catagory and justify not including it in SUV articles.

Now if VT3 wasn't non-linear, that would be different.

ScorpioProd
12-10-2003, 09:15 PM
Ah, but see I don't mean "us", I mean all the NLE users I know in my area, of which none have a VT[3]. I assure you they are only using NLEs.

ted
12-10-2003, 11:32 PM
And I pitty the fools!;)

Adam_LightPlay
12-16-2003, 07:29 PM
No it's not really Apples on one hand, and Oranges on the other. It's apples on one hand, a whole fruit salad including apples on the other hand.