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View Full Version : Hereīs New improved text tools for layout , simple lscript modifications attached



prometheus
08-16-2015, 01:05 PM
thereīs another thread about the text tools, but I thought a new one could be suitable.

I am no programmer, in fact..donīt think I can recall ever using ls commander or doing scripts before in any serious way.

But..since the text tools in layout is a bit limited, the logo tool requires a null first, and it has no bevel or spacing options, so I did a new logo tool by simply adding the process of adding a null first and then the logo and compile with ls commander..so that is the first script in the zip file.

Now even better, there isnīt any text layer tool in layout, but I figured..hey, so many tools seem to be "sleeping" in modeler function to layout function...so I went to the edit menu in layout and searched for text layers, and dragged it to
the layout modeler geometry creation tab, and same here...it needs a null, so I tested that..but I got some errors, but that was because of default letter by letter settings I think...I managed to uncheck some stuff and got the tool working, then compiled that as an lscript.

so now you have the logo tool working in layout directly without the need to add a null..
And you also have the text layer tool working in layout directly without the need to add a null, the text layer is probably best to use since you also can set it to bevel and have spacing..I think I havenīt set the values of centering correct though, might look in to that later.

good luck, the scripts are made in lightwave 11.6.3 64 bit, I suggest you add them in layout with add plugins, then go to edit menu and search for them, then drag them to the layout modeler tools in create/geometry

erikals
08-16-2015, 06:37 PM
nice! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idTZkvuUHVI

prometheus
08-16-2015, 06:51 PM
nice! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idTZkvuUHVI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idTZkvuUHVI

Great..and thanks for doing the vid of it, thatīs great.

Michael

tonyrizo2003
08-16-2015, 09:14 PM
This is awesome!!

erikals
08-16-2015, 09:18 PM
it's nice, but still there are plenty of lacks, here are some of them >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws8Q8Y0-KNU


+missing non destructive workflow
+missing text on path capabilities

+good beveling done in Layout seems impossible (?)

tonyrizo2003
08-16-2015, 11:13 PM
it's nice, but still there are plenty of lacks, here are some of them >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws8Q8Y0-KNU


+missing non destructive workflow
+missing text on path capabilities

+good beveling done in Layout seems impossible (?)

Doesn't beveling also depend on points in the polygon?

spherical
08-16-2015, 11:34 PM
Soooo.... can you not start the text operation with this script, easily get it to the point where limitations become a factor (may not be the case all the time), save the text out as a LWO, bounce it into Modeler and refine it there; where there is a full toolset to use on a 80%-90% completed mesh?

prometheus
08-17-2015, 01:34 AM
Soooo.... can you not start the text operation with this script, easily get it to the point where limitations become a factor (may not be the case all the time), save the text out as a LWO, bounce it into Modeler and refine it there; where there is a full toolset to use on a 80%-90% completed mesh?

while you are standing at the null(text) item..you can simply switch to modeler and it will show up there too, if the hub is working properly that is..then you can save it out and refine as you want...or simply save it out directly in layout and renaming it, after saving... the renaming will also take effect in layout..so the text item is no longer called null, the name property will be that of your liking.

08-17-2015, 08:21 AM
While the efforts are to be lauded, this whole approach is sad.

This just moves the problem to layout without resolution of so many of the things pointed to in this thread and the other.

It gives a bit of false hope, too, in that it makes it LOOK like something is being done to mitigate LW's weakness of creating 3D text with the fonts on your system.



The creation of text, a simple outline, isn't so hard to do in LW; it's making it look sharply beveled that the problems arise, particularly when trying to do it all through automation.


I find this, as a workaround of the conversation, or even as a starting point, akin to the workaround stories of the 6 and 7 series.

Robert

prometheus
08-17-2015, 09:55 AM
so much for the effort of simple scripts making some task a bit easier before the lw group does it with the sledgehammer.:ohmy:
Thereīs not any problem with my posts of doing a little better text tool, without me actually being a programmer..none whatsoever.

the limits within lightwave text tools and the modeler layout split, thatīs a different thing, if you by any chance have been fooled here...that would be sad, I mean if you were to take this as a serious
hope that something is done to mitigate lws weakness.

I did get the ..efforts to be lauded..and it is the approach you say is sad though..so no, I didnīt take it personally.

Just take it for what it is, and donīt excpect anything more than what you got, it do suggests though..that there might be other modeler tools you can apply this on..to make things a bit faster perhaps in layout creation...meanwhile.

If things arenīt happening ..If I can I will take things in my own hands, if nobody else does....hope that didnīt come out the wrong way :)

erikals
08-17-2015, 12:24 PM
yep, we're just testing a bit... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

prometheus
08-17-2015, 12:45 PM
yep, we're just testing a bit... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

and more...I just found that the hidden tool in modeler(Fill solid)...it also works in layout, and you can deform a toroid, or any object, and click fill solid, and it will fill the geometry container with points and respecting the displacement deformation, so it might be useful for setting up cloud point clusters directly in layout too, it also works to fill object in layout with points Even with VPR active and also with hypervoxels active on those points..that is nice, so when clicking on fill solid you can immediately see it update with hypervoxels in VPR.



Michael.

08-17-2015, 12:47 PM
Prometheus,
Well said. And Kudos for seeing that the post had no angst toward you nor your efforts.


Not trying to stop the tests, either. Stating my observation of what I see as a path of clear wants without clear paths to solutions.
Tests often offer insight, though, to paths for solutions.


Robert

ConjureBunny
08-17-2015, 01:04 PM
Some of the best ideas start as clever hacks, or clunky workarounds.

Some of my best ideas are still clunky hacks :D

Cool idea prometheus!

-Chilton

tonyrizo2003
08-17-2015, 02:59 PM
While the efforts are to be lauded, this whole approach is sad.

This just moves the problem to layout without resolution of so many of the things pointed to in this thread and the other.

It gives a bit of false hope, too, in that it makes it LOOK like something is being done to mitigate LW's weakness of creating 3D text with the fonts on your system.



The creation of text, a simple outline, isn't so hard to do in LW; it's making it look sharply beveled that the problems arise, particularly when trying to do it all through automation.


I find this, as a workaround of the conversation, or even as a starting point, akin to the workaround stories of the 6 and 7 series.

Robert

Hi Robert,

What might seem like a weakness to you might be an opportunity to someone else? Look at what happened with 3rd Powers, http://www.3rdpowers.com/index_store.html

They created some really great tools. My main point being that instead of looking at the problem as a weakness, we should look at what can be done. Prometheus for not being a programmer did something very cool, and I know we can all agree on that. Now what would happen if we had an experienced programmer take this germ of an idea and do something with it? That's what I'm talking about, LW is just a tool that gives us the foundation to be creative, they have also given us the tools (Python, LScript) to create or our tools if we need them.

That is the approach that I would like to see this forum take.

What can we do to take Prometheus's script one step further?

Thank you for your time.

prometheus
08-18-2015, 11:32 AM
and more...I just found that the hidden tool in modeler(Fill solid)...it also works in layout, and you can deform a toroid, or any object, and click fill solid, and it will fill the geometry container with points and respecting the displacement deformation, so it might be useful for setting up cloud point clusters directly in layout too, it also works to fill object in layout with points Even with VPR active and also with hypervoxels active on those points..that is nice, so when clicking on fill solid you can immediately see it update with hypervoxels in VPR.



Michael.

I wasnīt completly correct here, when talking about "porting" the fill solid tool to layout, I said one can for instance, add a sphere in layout, go to deform tab, use normal displacement to get a cloud shape, then click on the fill solid tool in layout...

the use fill solid to create points in that object will not respect the deformation, I was fooled ..cause the only way you can see the points in layout open gl, that is with vertice mode on..and I got sort of fooled by the geometry vertices so it looked like it was filled within that shape, but it will only fill the original non displaced shape.
If you however save out the object as trans object and reload that and then use fill solid, it will work as it should..so to conclude, your object must be in freezed deform shape.

it would be nice if the fill solid tool also could make the point clusters as a separate point object apart from the main container geometry, because otherwise when adding hypervoxels..it will also add voxels to the container objects vertices..and that might not look good for randomly cloud clusters..so that would be a back to square one where you would need to switch to modeler and delete the main container object.

for whatever use..the fill solid works in layout at least, no need for a script or so, just search for it in layout edit menu and drag it to the layout modeler tools, it creates points within objects at a rate of 100 points per fill solid clicks.

ultimatly I would like to have a fill solid tool that you can fill multiselected objects in layout, and then separate the points from the container objects, and further more...Sculpt deform the points as I see fit, and for even more cool advanced stuff, instant convertion to particles...but for now we would have to add particles to the points and emitt from that.

OnlineRender
08-18-2015, 11:45 AM
cheers for time and effort , shared!

jwiede
08-18-2015, 12:04 PM
the use fill solid to create points in that object will not respect the deformation, I was fooled

Not really surprising, the concept of "acquiring post-deformation geometry" doesn't exist in Modeler.

prometheus
08-18-2015, 12:05 PM
One time Rob Powers said something about split aps and doing it the way it is done in real life..props in one apartment etc...well, I do agree...up to a certain point, there could be so much power when tools are unified in layout..things like immediate feedback of voxels upon point creation within a shaped cloud container object....not sure if this new finding of fill solid tool working in layout will help me create faster and better stuff..I think I got a fast feedback in a different way of doing it compared to working in modeler only.

by the way, a bit of topic now from the text tool...but hypervoxels celshade mode can with some tweakings look nice for clouds...image s below using cel shade mode and point clusters created with fill solid in layout.



http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129318&d=1439921038



129318

08-18-2015, 01:30 PM
Tony,
Indeed, when you started YOUR thread, that is what I expected to happen for this niche to be filled: some programmer stepping up to take the challenge.
But you see, I've had conversations with programmers on the topic and they state there is no benefit to them for doing such a thing: Not enough money for the support they would have to provide.
While I see what prometheus did with the script is noteworthy, I don't see it as groundbreaking nor new.

Someone made a plugin with the word "rasp" in it that would fix those ugly beveled corners we get with a bevel. It was an lscript. Truly, next steps for we non-programmers is to figure out how to join scripts to make a super-script.

I say all of that to say: there are tools on the market that mitigate a programmer's desire to create such a tool for lightwave and this has been the case since its inception. Heck, NewTek hired out for a cg program for their Video tools and IT isn't very robust, either.
Do I want this to say as it is? No. Participating in this conversation, though, gives me some hope that something might give, though, and so I do.
Robert


Hi Robert,

What might seem like a weakness to you might be an opportunity to someone else? Look at what happened with 3rd Powers, http://www.3rdpowers.com/index_store.html

They created some really great tools. My main point being that instead of looking at the problem as a weakness, we should look at what can be done. Prometheus for not being a programmer did something very cool, and I know we can all agree on that. Now what would happen if we had an experienced programmer take this germ of an idea and do something with it? That's what I'm talking about, LW is just a tool that gives us the foundation to be creative, they have also given us the tools (Python, LScript) to create or our tools if we need them.

That is the approach that I would like to see this forum take.

What can we do to take Prometheus's script one step further?

Thank you for your time.

prometheus
08-18-2015, 01:42 PM
My script came to being just by the experimental lust of what can be done and always checking ways one might not think should work, not by my Huge coding knowledge and not really for a special purpose..maybe itīs like, why does the dog lick itīs B ?....Because the dog can :)

It may also serve as a teaser...mainly targeted towards the lightwave group, not really third party scripters whom might be better off waiting for the lightwave team to do the underhood changes necessary.

It might also serve as a simple showcase of how easy it can be to do macros and a simple script with ls commander, rather than the actuall script being all that Fantastic, I really didnīt write anything..just recording the process and convert it to a script.

Michael

robertoortiz
08-18-2015, 02:23 PM
Wow this is awesome guys!

erikals
08-18-2015, 04:35 PM
vote >

Text Tool Poll >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?147703-Text-Tool-Poll

tonyrizo2003
08-18-2015, 05:55 PM
Tony,
Indeed, when you started YOUR thread, that is what I expected to happen for this niche to be filled: some programmer stepping up to take the challenge.
But you see, I've had conversations with programmers on the topic and they state there is no benefit to them for doing such a thing: Not enough money for the support they would have to provide.
While I see what prometheus did with the script is noteworthy, I don't see it as groundbreaking nor new.

Someone made a plugin with the word "rasp" in it that would fix those ugly beveled corners we get with a bevel. It was an lscript. Truly, next steps for we non-programmers is to figure out how to join scripts to make a super-script.

I say all of that to say: there are tools on the market that mitigate a programmer's desire to create such a tool for lightwave and this has been the case since its inception. Heck, NewTek hired out for a cg program for their Video tools and IT isn't very robust, either.
Do I want this to say as it is? No. Participating in this conversation, though, gives me some hope that something might give, though, and so I do.
Robert

Robert,
Thank your for your thoughtful reply, it is very appreciated. I see your point, and I am glad that you have participated in this conversation as have so many others. I think we need to develop a model that would incentive a programmer to take this on and or make it so that it is open ended for others to pass forward. For example, if programmer A, does the initial version 1 work and gets paid for their efforts. Maybe that's the end of their part, the plugin is kept as an open source for programmer B to get paid to update the tool to version 2? Something like that.

- - - Updated - - -


One time Rob Powers said something about split aps and doing it the way it is done in real life..props in one apartment etc...well, I do agree...up to a certain point, there could be so much power when tools are unified in layout..things like immediate feedback of voxels upon point creation within a shaped cloud container object....not sure if this new finding of fill solid tool working in layout will help me create faster and better stuff..I think I got a fast feedback in a different way of doing it compared to working in modeler only.

by the way, a bit of topic now from the text tool...but hypervoxels celshade mode can with some tweakings look nice for clouds...image s below using cel shade mode and point clusters created with fill solid in layout.



http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129318&d=1439921038



129318


Very nice!!

08-18-2015, 06:16 PM
hehe,
See, that's what I was saying: one piece leads to another piece. (Read that as: glaring need.)

You have gems of thought that when extrapolated really offer insight as to why the other programs have gone the way they have.

Here, let me date myself...
AmigaVision was an AWESOME app. I made a caption program with it that worked with the VideoToaster. It was amazing what ->I<- could accomplish with my lazy-arsed programming skills.

There are NO MORE authoring programs, of this ilk, out there... I wonder why? If you know of a reasonably priced authoring tool like AmigaVision or Scala (over-priced and really glorified, today), and not on linux, let me know. Under $200, too.

Some of the other 3D apps have gotten this recorder thing down to it looking like internal code when done. The ability to record on the fly and edit afterward, in and for all aspects of a program, would a boon to this process, obviously.
But alas, we no got.


As an aside, as someone who is invested in LW this conversation will assist in guiding me what to do about our school licenses. I'm sure every educator who has enjoyed the privilege of teaching LW is feeling a nudge to move to one of the other softwares, particularly since they are giving them away. I'd rather not as I believe LW offers a great foundation for those beginning 3D. But when they see these trick things that a person with 5 years experience did, the they that are the nudgers want the same in their midst without merit to the effort of the endeavor. That is to say, they want magazine-exemplar work out of a class of freshmen-aged students.

My rant here is to say it may be time for me to not visit the forums for a while again. hehe
Robert


My script came to being just by the experimental lust of what can be done and always checking ways one might not think should work, not by my Huge coding knowledge and not really for a special purpose..maybe itīs like, why does the dog lick itīs B ?....Because the dog can :)

It may also serve as a teaser...mainly targeted towards the lightwave group, not really third party scripters whom might be better off waiting for the lightwave team to do the underhood changes necessary.

It might also serve as a simple showcase of how easy it can be to do macros and a simple script with ls commander, rather than the actuall script being all that Fantastic, I really didnīt write anything..just recording the process and convert it to a script.

Michael

spherical
08-18-2015, 07:04 PM
Very nice!!

You do know that the capability of editing quotes has been provided, yes?

jwiede
08-18-2015, 08:23 PM
Unfortunately, one of the most-stated text tool requirements is for a "procedural"/non-destructive workflow. As long as object-editing tools and animation-time deformers (and their relevant APIs) exclusively exist in separate apps, producing "procedural"/non-destructive workflow tools in Lightwave will remain difficult.

While scripters like Prometheus can optimize the steps that occur within each app, there's very little they can do about the need to involve both Modeler- and Layout-side operations in a "procedural" text solution. That same limitation is also the reason why third-party programmers haven't already tackled the issue. About the best you can hope for in current situation is another Genoma-like two-sided implementation (likely with similar back-and-forth workflow problems).

If y'all do wish to pursue the "optimized per-app scripts" approach, best to examine the different stages of Genoma's operation. You're basically going to have to deal with the same stages in your text system, and figuring out the back-and-forth flow between apps is pretty central to such a solution. Once that's figured out, implementing the distinct steps should be pretty straightforward.

One element best implemented in C/C++ (Python *might* also be performant enough) is a new "text + font -> geometry" engine plugin (for Modeler). Lightwave's internal text to geometry engine is... less than optimal, to be nice, offering just too little control/flexibility over the process. Better off replacing it with something capable of flexible, user-controllable handling in all areas, incl. f.e. how text itself is formatted as part of vectorization, as well as in how the vectorized text is converted into actual meshes / layers / objects output (the total list of controls gets a bit long, but nigh all fall within "input sourcing", "script & typography", and "output packaging").

tonyrizo2003
08-18-2015, 11:36 PM
yeah, I was lazy and did it on my phone sorry :)