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Cageman
08-10-2015, 06:25 PM
Yeah.. what the title say.

*Rant mode ON*

I've noticed some of you blaming Newtek/LW3DG for "missing" out on an offer of a new license of LW that includes 3rd Power and their tools. Especially from those who joined the CORE-thing years back.

I honestly do not understand your bitterness in this. The reason why is quite simple... when 3rd Powers went Live, you could get all their tools for a steal within a limited time period. Some "HC Members" did not bite on that. Fair enough.

But now, when a new seat of LW is offered for $995, which includes these tools, some HC members have the stomach to ask for a deal...

I am sorry, but... I just can't stand by and not see this through... I am pissed off of _cheap_ LW users trying to make a case of putting Newtek/LW3DG in a bad spot for not offering a deal.

Let me tell you guys this straight:

This deal is for new lics ONLY. You had your chance when 3rdPowers went live. You could have those tools as well as the update for LW for less than $995. You didn't take it back then...

I guess that you people want to have Newtek/LW3DG work for free, 24/7 without having to pay for anything just because an offer that seems better turns up. The sad fact is that you turned down a much better offer when the tools were announced.

You are, simply put, idiots. And Newtek/LW3DG should not pay for your state of mind; YOU should, because you were not smart enough at that time.

I am sorry, but I am starting to get extremely fed up with LW-users who think they can get everything for free, or for a small sum of money that doesn't even weight the amount of work required.

Support LW, support the third party devs, and, if you want to save a coin, bite when there is an offer you can handle. Do not get back a year later demanding things you clearly couldnt affort back then.

*Rant Mode OFF*

Oedo 808
08-10-2015, 06:46 PM
I think you have your wires crossed, they are offering an upgrade with LWBrush at $495, the same cost as it is for post-charter members, but not allowing them to take the offer.

I really don't see why it would be such a problem even with charter members to say "Ok, we can't afford to give you the offer at the charter price, but you can take it at normal". But even without that, just purely for post-charter members (i.e. not me) is letting them keep their price guarantee really such a hardship?

Right now they don't know whether it's even going to be any benefit whatsoever keeping it, if the price doesn't go back up and any other bundles come along they will absolutely lose out compared to non-charter members, does that make sense to you?

As for this other full upgrade bundle talk, I've no problem with it, which I think I said, if someone else has and you're talking to them then carry on.

Although why blame NT/LW3DG for a grievance, well whether something is valid or not, who the **** are we meant to blame, Mother Teresa?

erikals
08-10-2015, 07:31 PM
it's like giving a kid an ice cream...

...then 2 months later you give a new kid an ice cream, while the other kid has to stand watching

it feels a bit like...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hIdBkq195es/TdyVtNjXGAI/AAAAAAAAAEU/OiCmgl63Afc/s1600/envy.jpg


not complaining, but i surely expected reactions http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/biggrin.gif

Dexter2999
08-10-2015, 08:03 PM
Erikals- to me, it feels more like there are a large number of LW users who don't want to support the 3rd party, bug want everything for free. Currently it is the 3rdpowers tools. Before, it was a render pass management system and LW users weren't supporting Janus.

I don't blame people for wanting a deal but there is a limit.

Oedo 808
08-10-2015, 08:08 PM
Erikals- to me, it feels more like there are a large number of KW users who don't want to support the 3rd party, bug want everything for free. Currently it is the 3rdpowers tools. Before, it was a render pass management system and LW users weren't supporting Janus.

I don't blame people for wanting a deal but there is a limit.

Care to quantify that in the context of what is actually being discussed?

Snosrap
08-10-2015, 08:18 PM
I don't blame 'em. Great move if you ask me.

lightscape
08-10-2015, 08:52 PM
Its not hard to comprehend.
Promo stuff can't be combined.
I bought a queen size bed that's 50% off. The store had a one day sale of 20% off. I didn't really expect 70% off on that bed.
Geez I think some people want lightwave to be given away. :D

Oedo 808
08-10-2015, 08:56 PM
Its not hard to comprehend.
Promo stuff can't be combined.
I bought a queen size bed that's 50% off. The store had a one day sale of 20% off. I didn't really expect 70% off on that bed.
Geez I think some people want lightwave to be given away. :D

No one is asking it to, if anyone was thinking that way they would be really, really thick, I mean a complete and utter moron, to expect a charter discount and bundle of course ;)

lightscape
08-10-2015, 09:00 PM
Then what's everybody complaining about that they can't take advantage of the charter deal and the promo deal?
This is not the first promo that had people saying the same thing. They want to get the promo deal and have the charter deal not invalidated. That's dumb.

sukardi
08-10-2015, 09:06 PM
The good thing is that after this promo end, LW3DG would most probably be running buy LW2015 and get upgraded to LW2016 for free. I hope people won't be complaining of not getting the current LW2015 upgraded for free...

Oedo 808
08-10-2015, 09:14 PM
it's like giving a kid an ice cream...

...then 2 months later you give a new kid an ice cream, while the other kid has to stand watching

it feels a bit like...

To me it feels a bit like you say "Hey boy, you can be one of my first customers, I'll be coming round with some ice creams for Ģ1, but how about you pay up now and I sell you ice cream for 75p instead of Ģ1, but you have to buy one each time I come around for that price" Then after a couple of visits "Hey girl, would you like to buy an ice cream, only 75p and you get strawberry sauce and sprinkles free! What's that boy!? Why no she doesn't have to buy every time, and no you can't have those for free, that wasn't our deal, but remember I might put my prices up in future, so you're getting more really, well it's a possibility at least."

The customer should know what they are choosing, the cheaper upgrades without bundles or bundles at the price it is, to have the guaranteed price that locks you out of offers at the same price as anyone would get, to me it seems unfair. Perhaps in the knowledge that the price will go up the LWG think this is an ok situation because they have the knowledge it will work out favourably for post-charter members in the long term, well I would despair a little if they couldn't appreciate the short term dilemma it must cause?

But hey, just because I think it's a bad idea, maybe most post-charter members don't, and if so my frustration can only go so far.

What's more frustrating is responses that don't even address what has been said. Even a counter to which I can say "Oh yeah, right you are, that's fair enough", I could even be wrong still but no one is making any sense whatsoever, so I will apologize to the LWG because my point was not meant to be so exhaustive, but it has been exacerbated and protracted by what to me are some bizarre responses to a fairly simple point I wanted to make.

erikals
08-10-2015, 09:16 PM
yes, i was exited, then i thought, oh, bummer... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif


bah, only 4 ― months till LW2016 anyway...

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/icon_biggrin.gif

--------------

maybe in 4 years T-shirts would be in order...
"i was a post-charter member and didn't save a dime"

we shall see... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/biggrin.gif

--------------


it's important to remember though, that NT still gives us a very good deal, compared to Modo/C4D

erikals
08-10-2015, 09:48 PM
it's important to remember though, that NT still gives us a very good deal, compared to Modo/C4D

you can skip an upgrade, so personally i'll just skip LW2015, and if LW2016 doesn't suit me, i'll skip that one too

not saying LW2015 is bad for everyone,
not saying LW2016 will be a bad upgrade,
but if it doesn't help my workflow very well, why upgrade ?


i'm 100% sure that many others will upgrade
but personally i'm waiting (and waiting) for Modeler advancements and L/M integration


a look at LW Modeler 2015 by the way...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GErzkPKsJZI

Surrealist.
08-11-2015, 12:40 AM
My advice to anyone who cares enough to take or not take the deal would be to contact customer support and make your personal case and see how they react and what kind of deal they can make you.

In the past they have always treated me well.

It is worth a try and better than engaging on it here.

pinkmouse
08-11-2015, 01:05 AM
I think there would be much less complaining if LW3DG actually offered an upgrade that actually addressed some of the problems that LW has.

prometheus
08-11-2015, 02:58 AM
To emphasize my standings..anyone thinking I would want lightwave for free, thatīs correct..anyone not accepting such deal would be a fool.
Now..anyone really believing that will happen..that would be quite ludicrous to think so.

I wouldīt decline free offer..but I am not expecting free or almost free deals, I am just saying that the offering might need some better explanation on what is valid..obviously people do get confused.

speaking for myself, I initially thought it was a superdeal..only to find it wasnīt as good as I initially thought, it just mean it wasnīt an unbelievable deal..but it still may be a very good deal...now that should not be interpreted any other way..it may still be a very good deal for a lot of folks, I am not saying anything about that.

Since I by mistake perceived the deal to be valid for me with the full bundle including lw brush, I was thinking..I simply must jump on to this, only to find that it wasnīt that way...but it doesnīt mean it is a bad deal, If anyone thinks I am excpecting all for free..they need a reality check..in my fantasies I would like, but in reality that wonīt happen..and if some of you guys donīt understand that..I wonder whatīs the state of your minds...If I am not under the radar of such thinkings, fine..disregard my comments here.

Im more just stumbled on why these offerings seem to raise questions on what is valid for one another...are we just plain stupid..lazy to to find that out by ourself..or is it infact the case that the offerings by itīs nature will confuse us..due to history charter membership etc.

thereīs a 90 day full trial available now til 17 of august by the way

Edited...
I just realized this comment here might have ended up wrong, I thought this belonged to another thread concering the update offers.

erikals
08-11-2015, 03:07 AM
this, once again, means it's time for...

http://erikalstad.com/emoti/sim1.png

http://www.erikalstad.com/emoti/bigsmile.gif

jburford
08-11-2015, 03:31 AM
maybe in 4 years T-shirts would be in order...

"i was a post-charter member and didn't save a dime"

we shall see... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/biggrin.gif






I always thought way back We should make a T-Shirt, stated "I got CORED by Newtek" showing a Booleaned Apple (the Core) after the Core Fiasco. . . . But bit my tongue way back when.

But, back on topic, can feel the OPs thoughts/feelings!

jburford
08-11-2015, 03:38 AM
My advice to anyone who cares enough to take or not take the deal would be to contact customer support and make your personal case and see how they react and what kind of deal they can make you.

In the past they have always treated me well.

It is worth a try and better than engaging on it here.


That is definately good advice, also worked for me in the past. Gave it a shot, and they came back with an offer for me, then extended it later to the rest of the users then.

Helped me out!

Waves of light
08-11-2015, 04:10 AM
Man, how long ago was CORE, HardCore, etc. What exactly did users 'lose' from this? I seem to remember that, if you weren't completely happy with the direction of 10.1, after the CORE demise, that you were offered a full refund. So there's point one, if you took on the non-charter, charter price, then that was the 'offer' or 'discount' at the time (which I seem to remember saved around $200 on an upgrade) and you made that choice to stay with LW and it's future development. We got a t-shirt, a membership card and I even got a full video tutorial by Lino Grandi on rigging in LW10.1

The market has changed and so has LW3DGs business model and therefore they have decided to drop the price of an upgrade to the current charter price. At first I was like 'hey, do we get a discount on the charter price then' and made that point several times in forum posts, but released that I had my offer/discount when I decided to continue on with 10.1.

Regarding the new offer... honestly, I did think that if I upgraded now, with my charter price, I would get the LW Brush offer (as I'm technically upgrading) but if I've read that incorrectly, or that isn't in the small print, then there isn't much I can do about it really and there's no point in throwing s**t towards the devs, sales or Rob Powers, as is won't make a bit of difference. That is what is currently on the table, that is what they, as a company, have decided is the best method of selling more seats, or more upgrades.

What I'm trying to say is... my charter membership got me a discount with my LW11 upgrade and some goodies, it doesn't get me anything right now. Oh well, tough s**t. Has this stopped me from upgrading to LW2015, no. Lack of new useful functionality has done that. I can see a use for Genoma 2, match perspective and Importance sampling... but I don't 'need' it right now, so my only reason for purchasing an upgrade would be 'want'.

Looking forward to seeing what they come up with next.

erikals
08-11-2015, 04:31 AM
the critique was rather careful imo

this thread is turning out to be a critique against the critique against the critique

willin
08-11-2015, 04:39 AM
Nothing new here, cheap is the word.

Lightwave forums have always attracted some of the cheapest people in the 3D world. They want the most up to date 3D technology basically for free. Unfortunately this cheapskates are also the most outspoken and loudest in this crowd.

Some of this folks don't even use lightwave anymore but for some reason still hang around here with nothing to offer but their negativity.

Others are not in the latest version of the software which is fair if they are waiting for a version that offers more for their dollar but I wish that they wait for a version they find worthy quietly because even a slim version of lightwave as some claim 2015 was is a better deal than any other 3d package with the exemption of Blender.

I personally think that most of this complainers are hobbyist that can't afford the upgrades or the third party offerings at the more than fair prices at which they are offer so they complain fantasying over tools they can't afford. So if you are a hobbyist and can't afford what is been offer here move on to blender and start posting over there. If you are ever in a position to afford lightwave 3D then come back and take a second look to see if there is something you like. You now have a 90 day trial version for free, enjoy it. Yeah, I know, you think it would be better for Newtek if it was a free learning edition so everyone could learn lightwave. Not going to happen. That only attracks freeloaders and we got more than our share already.

The rest of you who are waiting for Lightwave to become a Maya or a Houdini, well those programs already exists and I'm sure they would welcome you with open arms providing you have an open wallet. But that's not going to happen because you can barely afford lighwave. So get the latest version of lightwave, bare down and learn how to use the software as well as possible and you will have less time to complain and a lot more time to make money.

Of course you can always get the free apprentice edition of Houdini or the free versions of everything Autodesk has to offer but please don't come back here with fantasies of lighwave becoming those programs. Not going to happen unless everyone starts supporting lightwave giving them the funds to hire competent developers able to improve the product.

Catch 22, you don't support the program because its not to your liking, they can't hire the people to bring the program to your liking because they don't have funds.

Stop complaining, get to learning and working.

stiff paper
08-11-2015, 06:37 AM
Just here to register my agreement with the original post.

Completely on point, Cageman... (and you managed to be much more polite than I'd have managed if I'd tried to say the same thing, so extra points for that.)

lardbros
08-11-2015, 07:07 AM
Don't mind me... just browsing! :D

Waves of light
08-11-2015, 07:09 AM
Has anyone had OFFICIAL confirmation that the Hardcore/Charter members don't get the plugin if they upgrade?? I've not seen this as yet.
Can someone point me towards it please?

Thanks

If you look at the 'Please note' bit under the upgrade offer, it's in there: https://www.lightwave3d.com/buy-lightwave-3rd-powers/

"Please Note:
This upgrade offer cannot be used in conjunction with other on-going promotions or discounts, such as Charter / Post Charter. Licenses valid for upgrade are shown on your account page, click the sign in button to log into your account page."

prometheus
08-11-2015, 07:15 AM
Of course you can always get the free apprentice edition of Houdini or the free versions of everything Autodesk has to offer but please don't come back here with fantasies of lighwave becoming those programs. Not going to happen unless everyone starts supporting lightwave giving them the funds to hire competent developers able to improve the product.

Catch 22, you don't support the program because its not to your liking, they can't hire the people to bring the program to your liking because they don't have funds.

Stop complaining, get to learning and working.

Donīt get me wrong here..what you say is important, the lightwave group needs funds and users to pay for it properly in order to put in the resources, but how did sidefx/houdini go about to acheive that? or pixologic?
Us users buying in to the software is of course important, but it is also the responsibility of the developers etc to build itīs software to some degree and market it in such ways that people invests in it.

I agree with you up to a certain point, not so black and white though...you did say, unless people starts paying ..donīt expect a houdini software..I donīt know where you get the idea that people do not recognize that statement to be true.

As for complaining, I think that has more to do with the type of charter/core membership handling and unclear information on what to expect, to some degree maybe also how far the lw development has come..but mostly that core membership still lingers on as a thorn in the eye when it comes to upgrades...more so than actual houdini vs lightwave development.

It will be nice when the core membership and other charter memberships historic offering getīs out of the way someday...what would it take? I donīt know..time, a new lightwave version that surprises everyone, or new ways to offer the sales that do not make it too complicated with memberships.

users to fund the software and development sure, but it isnīt the users that creates the software..the dev team is the creators foremost...with the aid of us.

Lightwave is a fantastic software for itīs price..do not take me for someone thinking otherwise...even though the 2015 update hasnīt been what I expected, and as Lino said..
updates might not be for everyone at all times..sometimes it donīt fitīs your needs at that update cycle.

Catch 22.."I wont buy in to that apple since there is no apple"...the maker of the apple goes.."sure give me your money and I will make that apple"...no chance, you need to have a product to sell.
some people might buy in to a product before itīs there..but some uf us already did that some time ago..and we know how that went.:devil::D

willin
08-11-2015, 08:07 AM
Catch 22.."I wont buy in to that apple since there is no apple"...the maker of the apple goes.."sure give me your money and I will make that apple"...no chance, you need to have a product to sell.
some people might buy in to a product before itīs there..but some uf us already did that some time ago..and we know how that went.:devil::D

Why haven't you taken a byte out of 3rd Powers plugins. There is plenty of apple to byte into there and they keep improving the apple with upgrades. No, I don't think with you it has anything to do with the apple, you just want it cheap, way below the worth price.

prometheus
08-11-2015, 08:16 AM
Why haven't you taken a byte out of 3rd Powers plugins. There is plenty of apple to byte into there and they keep improving the apple with upgrades. No, I don't think with you it has anything to do with the apple, you just want it cheap, way below the worth price.

because it is I who decides when I need it and not you:D
and yes I want it cheap..thatīs more smarter than wanting it expensive..if you would like to go that route..fine with me, but you really have no clue seriously on what I need and can do and what I want for acceptable pricing.:tsktsk:

My priority order is not to buy in to a product...Just to to support it, I buy in to it because I just think it is so cool for my hobby projects or if I need it for work.

My secondary order is to support the developer, so in the future it might help me ..in the future.

My third order is that..the secondary order must not conflict with the first order.

and of course..just becuase I havenīt bought in to it..doesnīt mean I will not, I reserve the rights to decide when it fits my needs and purse, I am impressed with 3rd powers tools no doubt...and by mistake I perceived it to be a superdeal, but found it not to be what I initially thought, I might still change my mind you know..and actually do some investments.

Delayed edit..one thing about not jumping in to buying stuff as soon as possible, you get the chance to get feedback on how great something works..as testimonials on that, if you need something for a certain task up front and you go for it based on what is described..fine, but if you do not need it that way..you could wait and see if it delivers, obviously 3rd powers tools have been reviewed as very good.

Oedo 808
08-11-2015, 08:21 AM
Jesus, it's a funny thing to say this forum is full of people who are cheap, well it certainly has a lot of oxygen thieves :D

Not that I think you would have taken it as such but that isn't directed at you prometheus, can't be too careful these days it would seem.

prometheus
08-11-2015, 08:29 AM
Jesus, it's a funny thing to say this forum is full of people who are cheap, well it certainly has a lot of oxygen thieves :D

Not that I think you would have taken it as such but that isn't directed at you prometheus, can't be too careful these days it would seem.

I hope you donīt take cheap shots at me now..be careful people of what you say against me, I could take it that you guys are cheap.
:)

Wade
08-11-2015, 08:41 AM
Cageman - "You are, simply put, idiots." Really not called for and I think against forum policy.

I think it's a great deal for anyone new to LW and good for those that have not yet upgraded to 2015 but for those of us who have upgraded with each release quickly in support of LW there is no benefit. I'll continue to upgrade as each point is released as I would upgrade in time anyway so why not do it right at first and get use of all the improvements from day one.

So I say remember me your loyal customer - please as you can either give me these tools in a paid release or as part of a deal if you are going to others. I do ask that you don't call me or others names its just not called for. Nice to see tools being developed for LW now if I can get my hands on LWCAD 5 which was paid for something like a year ago as part of a deal - upgrade to 4.5 and get 5 when release "soon".

lightscape
08-11-2015, 09:05 AM
I'm pretty sure the lwbrush deal is available to charter members but CS will definitely notify you that it will invalidate your charter deal if you buy the lwbrush deal. That's normal.
They notified me when I tried to upgrade one of my license with the octane bundle. I didn't know that license was charter. So I said I'd rather keep the charter deal.

Lets not be like Steam users. I've never met more "entitled" people than the steam forums.

prometheus
08-11-2015, 09:10 AM
It sure opens up for debate about who
Is who...when the addressed idiots are unknown..

m.d.
08-11-2015, 09:18 AM
Wow.....lots of opinions here.
I never complained about the deal, and I am a charter member. But something I do quite often is vote with my feet.

Now people are saying lightwave users are cheap....???

Please realize there is a full COMMERCIAL edition of Houdini for $100 a year......pretty sure it includes a lattice deformer.

Once agin, you have not heard me complain, but I don't need LW....LW needs me. They do have to offer something attractive and competitive to keep my business. If all the loyal charter members don't upgrade next version these forums may be complaint free but quiet.

I bought a $5k fusion license years ago, and I bought a $2k cineform license years ago....never have complained that they are now essentialy free.

Changing marketplace, when $5k fusion and $200k DaVinci are now free, cheap is become a business reality.

Lito
08-11-2015, 09:31 AM
I'm pretty sure the lwbrush deal is available to charter members but CS will definitely notify you that it will invalidate your charter deal if you buy the lwbrush deal. That's normal.
They notified me when I tried to upgrade one of my license with the octane bundle. I didn't know that license was charter. So I said I'd rather keep the charter deal.

Lets not be like Steam users. I've never met more "entitled" people than the steam forums.

See and that's what makes 0 sense at all. I could understand it if you are getting a discount but post charter members are NOT getting one. The charter membership only stipulates you get a discount on the next 5 upgrades and you must buy all of them to retain the membership. No where does it say that if you opted to buy the upgrade for the normal upgrade price you would get dropped from charter. This really isn't about entitlement, it is about what was agreed upon to maintain charter status. And as far as I can see if you bought the upgrade for "regular price" and chose not to use the "discounted" charter price, you are still fulfilling the stated conditions of the membership and you should not be dropped from it. Even though this deal doesn't apply to me since I already own both items in the bundle, I definitely find it disturbing that it is being handled this way.

Wickedpup
08-11-2015, 09:58 AM
http://www.tanyacooper.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/high_horse2.jpg

seghier
08-11-2015, 09:59 AM
who blame newtek ; where and when ?

lardbros
08-11-2015, 10:17 AM
If you look at the 'Please note' bit under the upgrade offer, it's in there: https://www.lightwave3d.com/buy-lightwave-3rd-powers/

"Please Note:
This upgrade offer cannot be used in conjunction with other on-going promotions or discounts, such as Charter / Post Charter. Licenses valid for upgrade are shown on your account page, click the sign in button to log into your account page."

Yeah, I saw that and then edited my post :)
The first time I saw that offer I must have mis-read/skim-read it.

Doesn't really bother me at all if I'm honest. If I reeeeeeally need any of those tools for a certain job, it'll pay for itself with the job at hand I'm sure. Just glad Newtek are trying to entice other users over with a very good promotion... yet again!
No complaints from me regarding marketing at the moment, it's the best it's been for years!

ivanze
08-11-2015, 03:09 PM
Nothing new here, cheap is the word.

Lightwave forums have always attracted some of the cheapest people in the 3D world. They want the most up to date 3D technology basically for free. Unfortunately this cheapskates are also the most outspoken and loudest in this crowd.

Some of this folks don't even use lightwave anymore but for some reason still hang around here with nothing to offer but their negativity.

Others are not in the latest version of the software which is fair if they are waiting for a version that offers more for their dollar but I wish that they wait for a version they find worthy quietly because even a slim version of lightwave as some claim 2015 was is a better deal than any other 3d package with the exemption of Blender.

I personally think that most of this complainers are hobbyist that can't afford the upgrades or the third party offerings at the more than fair prices at which they are offer so they complain fantasying over tools they can't afford. So if you are a hobbyist and can't afford what is been offer here move on to blender and start posting over there. If you are ever in a position to afford lightwave 3D then come back and take a second look to see if there is something you like. You now have a 90 day trial version for free, enjoy it. Yeah, I know, you think it would be better for Newtek if it was a free learning edition so everyone could learn lightwave. Not going to happen. That only attracks freeloaders and we got more than our share already.

The rest of you who are waiting for Lightwave to become a Maya or a Houdini, well those programs already exists and I'm sure they would welcome you with open arms providing you have an open wallet. But that's not going to happen because you can barely afford lighwave. So get the latest version of lightwave, bare down and learn how to use the software as well as possible and you will have less time to complain and a lot more time to make money.

Of course you can always get the free apprentice edition of Houdini or the free versions of everything Autodesk has to offer but please don't come back here with fantasies of lighwave becoming those programs. Not going to happen unless everyone starts supporting lightwave giving them the funds to hire competent developers able to improve the product.

Catch 22, you don't support the program because its not to your liking, they can't hire the people to bring the program to your liking because they don't have funds.

Stop complaining, get to learning and working.

Amen

spherical
08-11-2015, 03:22 PM
No where does it say that if you opted to buy the upgrade for the normal upgrade price you would get dropped from charter. This really isn't about entitlement, it is about what was agreed upon to maintain charter status. And as far as I can see if you bought the upgrade for "regular price" and chose not to use the "discounted" charter price, you are still fulfilling the stated conditions of the membership and you should not be dropped from it.

That is what I find surprising. IOW, what's the difference which way one chooses to upgrade through the Charter/Post-Charter cycle. Upgrading to each new version is the main goal, here. Or have I got it wrong and there's a clause in the original Charter offering that states as such? Could be....

BTW, before anyone piles on with an assumption, because this is becoming potentially ugly -- right outta the gate -- and getting worse, both of our seats have already been upgraded and we bought all of the 3rd Powers Tools when they came out. We have no axe to grind as far as feeling cheated.

jasonwestmas
08-11-2015, 04:33 PM
I didn't know people were blaming LW3DG for this 3rd powers deal. I personally wouldn't care if I missed out. I have a lot of tools already that I wish I had the time to use. :)

tonyrizo2003
08-11-2015, 05:36 PM
true dat!!

JamesCurtis
08-11-2015, 06:31 PM
Just a week or so ago I had purchased 3rd Powers Boolean Tool because I needed it for a client project. His tools are great. I have no licences available for upgrade anymore myself. I have two seats of Lightwave 2015. I do want to get the rest of the 3rd Powers plugins, but I'll have to do it as I can. Doesn't bother me at all that this deal came through when it did even though that 2nd seat was upgraded only about 6 months ago. One does things when one needs to.

Surrealist.
08-12-2015, 12:20 AM
I didn't know people were blaming LW3DG for this 3rd powers deal.

No one actually is or was. So you did not miss anything. ;)

The people who where unhappy had good reasons from their own estimation. And the best thing if this is the case, is to simply contact LW 3D Group and bring up your concerns.

Participating or starting threads like this are not helpful in my opinion. And they don't solve a thing.

shermanlu
08-12-2015, 01:15 AM
I think Newtek/LW3DG should consider giving away free licenses for students & educational institutions as Autodesk has done.

50one
08-12-2015, 03:41 AM
I've bought the license years ago, never been a porncore member...I want this bundle for free.

and a Shetland pony.

OnlineRender
08-12-2015, 04:20 AM
Jesus, it's a funny thing to say this forum is full of people who are cheap, well it certainly has a lot of oxygen thieves :D



it's also full of some of the most kind heart'ed, generous, intelligent, helpful bunch of people I have ever known.

cage you said what you had to say , personally I would remove the thread otherwise it will turn into people bitchen about bitchen ...

lardbros
08-12-2015, 06:27 AM
I think Newtek/LW3DG should consider giving away free licenses for students & educational institutions as Autodesk has done.

I think they are more than happy to do this... if you contact them, they will gladly help! Unfortunately, they don't really shout about this, but I'm certain they would help Educational Institutions.

Oedo 808
08-12-2015, 07:29 AM
I've bought the license years ago, never been a porncore member...I want this bundle for free.

and a Shetland pony.

I can't say that I could see why, perhaps you could explain yourself. Hey I know, maybe you could just make silly, irrelevant comments instead, I'm sure one will be just as entertaining as the other.


it's also full of some of the most kind heart'ed, generous, intelligent, helpful bunch of people I have ever known.

Not much evidence of that at the moment, I'm saying what I think would be fair and it doesn't really affect me, all I can see in response is people blurting out idiotic fanboy nonsense with little in the way of reason, and what little there is of that is flawed. And it's done solely for the purpose of making themselves feel better about standing up for the little guy, no not the users, LightWave, **** yeah! Absolutely nothing kind-hearted, generous, intelligent or helpful about it at all.


cage you said what you had to say , personally I would remove the thread otherwise it will turn into people bitchen about bitchen ...

It already has, and it's contradictory to the image you'd like to portray of people, it's no wonder you'd like to see it gone and really quite telling in itself.


I think they are more than happy to do this... if you contact them, they will gladly help! Unfortunately, they don't really shout about this, but I'm certain they would help Educational Institutions.

What is the matter with you, lardbros? Is that England location a mistake or is this some wicked sense of humour? You do realize that what he's saying is more that just a desire for personal gain, it's a desire for a policy shift that he thinks would benefit LightWave as a whole and that contacting them and getting it just for him isn't a result he'd be happy with? I suppose that would make him ungrateful? Well? It's amazing how the 'better people' have an 'I'm all right, Jack' mindset around here.

A bit of a theme developing: "Hey, think something isn't quite right? Contact CS and see what they can do for you and only you, after all there's more chance of getting it for yourself than for everyone" - Your sincerely the kind-hearted, generous, intelligent and helpful people of the LightWave forum. Great stuff :thumbsup:

Lito
08-12-2015, 07:31 AM
I didn't know people were blaming LW3DG for this 3rd powers deal. I personally wouldn't care if I missed out. I have a lot of tools already that I wish I had the time to use. :)

I don't think I saw anyone blaming LW3DG for the bundle, but maybe I glossed over it. Personally I am just sympathizing for the ones that are post charter members who suddenly got an incentive to buy the upgrade and now face a decision to have to either get the deal or lose membership in charter even though the asking price is exactly the same and condition of buying the current upgrade is being fulfilled. :)

graviel
08-12-2015, 07:46 AM
After being unable to upgrade Softimage and Maya this entire discussion looks to me rather surreal.
No one forces you to upgrade in al releases. If you want to upgrade fast you pay what it costs now, if not you can wait and try to fetch the right discount whenever it comes, if it comes. Just about timing.

Neither Autodesk, neither Daz, no subscriptions neither stacking discounts up to 98% if you buy the pony and the cheesy underwear... :-P

lightscape
08-12-2015, 07:51 AM
I bought a $5k fusion license years ago, and I bought a $2k cineform license years ago....never have complained that they are now essentialy free.

Some people just love to get stuff free. Mixamo Fuse was sold at steam for a lot less money than its worth. A few months later it was bought by Adobe and now its free.
What do you think the Steam users wanted? A refund. Lol!
That's the kind of people I don't expect in a pro forum.

Oedo 808
08-12-2015, 08:24 AM
After being unable to upgrade Softimage and Maya this entire discussion looks to me rather surreal.
No one forces you to upgrade in al releases. If you want to upgrade fast you pay what it costs now, if not you can wait and try to fetch the right discount whenever it comes, if it comes. Just about timing.

Neither Autodesk, neither Daz, no subscriptions neither stacking discounts up to 98% if you buy the pony and the cheesy underwear... :-P

With your apparent reading comprehension I would imagine there is quite a lot that looks rather surreal.


Some people just love to get stuff free. Mixamo Fuse was sold at steam for a lot less money than its worth. A few months later it was bought by Adobe and now its free.
What do you think the Steam users wanted? A refund. Lol!
That's the kind of people I don't expect in a pro forum.

You make a quote, parrot the point back to the poster and still completely miss the point, brilliant.

tonyrizo2003
08-12-2015, 08:25 AM
it's also full of some of the most kind heart'ed, generous, intelligent, helpful bunch of people I have ever known.

cage you said what you had to say , personally I would remove the thread otherwise it will turn into people bitchen about bitchen ...

I agree with OR, there are a lot of great people here fanboys/girls, hobbyists and professionals who spend their time helping others.

ianr
08-12-2015, 08:35 AM
Yay 50 one,
Such a dudish comment that you'd 'pony' up 4 3rdPowers .
Always good for dem good one-liners.

SO all you moaners,now take your medii's, I would like
to say Thank You 2 Masahiro San for helping out.

Oedo 808
08-12-2015, 08:39 AM
I agree with OR, there are a lot of great people here fanboys/girls, hobbyists and professionals who spend their time helping others.

What has that got to do with what is being discussed, how does it change it for good or ill? I mean what the ever living ****, what kind of an unbelievable circle-jerk is this!? I mean be the point right or wrong "Yay for the LightWave community!"

Perhaps you and OR can point out the replies that are either kind-hearted, generous, intelligent or helpful. I suppose you think 50one's "I've bought the license years ago, never been a porncore member...I want this bundle for free.

and a Shetland pony." qualifies?

Let me say it, yay! Yay for the LightWave community! What a helpful, brilliant bunch. Well that's really pressed my point home, I think I'm on to a winner here.

OnlineRender
08-12-2015, 09:07 AM
Perhaps you and OR can point out the replies that are either kind-hearted, generous, intelligent or helpful.


I can point to loads > https://www.facebook.com/groups/lightwiki/ total different vibe, supportive as hell, more chat, more artwork,more downloads, more traffic than this forum and less bitchen ,plus our search works :D

and on a personal level some of the lads in that group have pulled it out the bag.

Surrealist.
08-12-2015, 09:10 AM
Thanks for the link. :)

Oedo 808
08-12-2015, 09:12 AM
I can point to loads > https://www.facebook.com/groups/lightwiki/ total different vibe, supportive as hell, more chat, more artwork,more downloads, more traffic than this forum and less bitchen ,plus our search works :D

and on a personal level some of the lads in that group have pulled it out the bag.

I'm talking about in the context of this, jesus ****ing christ, what the hell is the matter with you people?

I see you are quite happy to see other users insulted by being called cheap, and then decided to respond only to my off the cuff riposte directed at those who cast the first stone on this forum, by telling me that there have been a lot of helpful users elsewhere, genius!

OnlineRender
08-12-2015, 09:20 AM
/\ touché

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129250&d=1439392814

50one
08-12-2015, 09:23 AM
you all should wrestle in custard wearing nothing butt DCC app tshirt, I would pay to see that.


No wait! I wouldn't.:devil:

Oedo 808
08-12-2015, 09:31 AM
/\ touché

I'm sorry, what do you think that proves, that I've had to spend my time responding to people completely missing the point? Granted.


you all should wrestle in custard wearing nothing butt DCC app tshirt, I would pay to see that.


No wait! I wouldn't.:devil:

It's sad that ordinarily I would have made a joke that would no doubt involve my hairy bum cheeks, but at the moment it's just, meh.

ianr
08-12-2015, 09:38 AM
you all should wrestle in custard wearing nothing butt DCC app tshirt, I would pay to see that.


No wait! I wouldn't.:devil:


Ohh err! Too much information 50 bum!:rolleyes:

50one
08-12-2015, 09:39 AM
Cheer up.

I do have to admit tat I'm missing the point here.
What this thread is about.
I'm confused.

Oedo 808
08-12-2015, 09:56 AM
Cheer up.

I do have to admit tat I'm missing the point here.
What this thread is about.
I'm confused.

So am I, I wish I hadn't started, I even redacted my first response heavily to avoid having a load of crap to respond to, didn't work out that well. Cageman may not agree with me in any eventuality, but I'd laugh if he had been on the sauce last night, misread what I was getting at and posted his rant and went to bed. That would cheer me up :D

Chris S. (Fez)
08-12-2015, 10:34 AM
I see both sides of this debate.

I don't believe the charter pricing offers enough value to make a difference. If 2016 is a beast and upgrades go for twice the present rate then, yeah, charter might be a better value. For now, I would not worry about sacrificing your charter discount. If a promotion appeals to you, go for it.

calilifestyle
08-12-2015, 11:05 AM
I blame them... for not being at Siggraph. Other than that we only have ourselves to blame. haha. Oh and i blame Ryan for showing such great examples of 3rdpowers tools. :-)

50one
08-12-2015, 12:10 PM
That's better! See we're all pals again! We can grab each other's hands and sing:)

Medi8or
08-12-2015, 12:32 PM
On Facebook I'm used to people writing heated posts to something they didn't read or understand, and other people joining in rage over something that didn't happen. Seems the inability to read spreads to the old forums, or maybe I have the delusion that everything was better in the past...

tonyrizo2003
08-12-2015, 12:43 PM
What has that got to do with what is being discussed, how does it change it for good or ill? I mean what the ever living ****, what kind of an unbelievable circle-jerk is this!? I mean be the point right or wrong "Yay for the LightWave community!"

Perhaps you and OR can point out the replies that are either kind-hearted, generous, intelligent or helpful. I suppose you think 50one's "I've bought the license years ago, never been a porncore member...I want this bundle for free.

and a Shetland pony." qualifies?

Let me say it, yay! Yay for the LightWave community! What a helpful, brilliant bunch. Well that's really pressed my point home, I think I'm on to a winner here.

Oedo 808, I am sorry you and others got burned by NT, and I am not going to debate the Core issue because I did not opt into that deal. As for me, I'm an optimist and I thought I would support what OR had mentioned that there are many helpful people in this forum. As for 50One, hell if he can get a shetland pony more power to him! I wouldn't want one, damn things are to messy to clean up after.

Hope you have a better day. ~Tony :)

spherical
08-12-2015, 03:06 PM
No one forces you to upgrade in al releases.

If you are in Charter or Post-Charter, you do have to upgrade in succession as versions are released or you lose the deal.

hrgiger
08-12-2015, 04:04 PM
Well this thread should have been closed from the first post as soon as Cageman decided that everyone with a different opinion then him is an idiot. Or at least edited.

Having said that though, LW3DG can't win in a lot of these situations. For instance if they say well everyone who buys a license on or after October first will get the next version of the software for free once its released. There's always going to be that person who bought their license on September 30th who is going to feel cheated.

To me, I see them running a deal and think good for them, I hope they sell some additional seats, make a little money that might help keep LightWave moving forward. Even if I can't take advantage of that offer. Because that still benefits me.

Oedo 808
08-12-2015, 04:34 PM
Oedo 808, I am sorry you and others got burned by NT, and I am not going to debate the Core issue because I did not opt into that deal. As for me, I'm an optimist and I thought I would support what OR had mentioned that there are many helpful people in this forum. As for 50One, hell if he can get a shetland pony more power to him! I wouldn't want one, damn things are to messy to clean up after.

Hope you have a better day. ~Tony :)

Hi Tony, I haven't really been burned by NT, well not in this case anyway, I just saw something I thought wasn't right, mentioned it, and then the fun ensued. Hopefully it's at least something that will be taken into consideration.

If I were at NT and sore about having to deal with the charter stuff and I wanted to be an arse, lowering the upgrade price to the post charter guarantee price and then laughing as people miss out on deals in the hope their deal would come good in the end is just the sort of dick move I could cook up, so to think it's there by design seems a little strange. I'm not saying that is the motivation I'm just saying it's a strange juxtaposition to say, yeah, we're happy with the status quo. But anyway, I've said enough so you have a nice day yourself.

tonyrizo2003
08-12-2015, 04:44 PM
Oedo 808, thanks for taking the time to clarify your position I appreciate it.

Take care

Tony :)

hrgiger
08-12-2015, 04:53 PM
In regards to the price being lowered to the post charter price, I think I had the same initial reaction but given that 2015 wasn't exactly a robust update, I think lowering the price was probably a good move on their part. And who is to say that 2016 (or whatever the next update is) might be a bigger update and they may raise the price back up again, then people who did upgrade post charter will still have that $495 price. It is after all just a price lock, not a guarantee that you will pay less then anyone else. I just pose the question, what if they had lowered the price to $395 which is the same price as a charter upgrade. And you as a post charter would have the option of A)paying your $495 price but keeping your price lock or B)paying the $395 regular price and losing your post charter status for the remaining upgrades, what would you do?

Oedo 808
08-12-2015, 05:30 PM
You don't need that scenario, it's pretty much what is faced here if I were a post-charter member and I'm not sure, I've already talked about just that. I suppose in your scenario I would abandon the guarantee because the idea that they would draw people off then jack it up soon after seems like too much of a power keg, but then with who we're talking about...

Cageman
08-13-2015, 06:41 PM
Cageman - "You are, simply put, idiots." Really not called for and I think against forum policy.

I wrote "some of you" and not "all of you". If you felt hurt by it, I can't really take a responsibility for your feelings. I was very vague about who "those are". I didn't single out you, or anyone else. I just wrote "some of you".

It was a rant about something I've seen in the community of LW for years; users want a lot of things, and when things do appear (especially as plugins), some of the users are not willing to pay for it. "It should be in the package", is the usual answer.

I agree. It should, but it isn't; hence the price of LW. This can be said about many plugins developed for LW. At the same time, one can whine about it or take a step to rectify some problems solved by others; usually with money. All of a sudden, LW becomes a good platform (not excellent, but not as terrible it used to be either) to use for things that the original design didn't allow for.

How many Maya users or studios do you think are whining about the fact that they have to get Shave & Haircut for doing things related to fur and hair? How many of them whine about the fact that some studios got it for free or for a lower cost, or even having the developer working at the studio to make it work for their production?

No one; because they know that the price for such a thing is quite steep. Those studios simply paid for it... either with time, or with money... and in the long run, Shave & Haircut got tons better.

So... being loyal to LW3DG today is this; You have a locked down upgradeprice for 5 years from the CORE thing. This upgradeprice is soley LW and no third party plugins. Anything beyond that is goodwill from LW3DG. Asking them for more, just because you see a shiny new cake that some others might bite into, is to not accept the deal you made with LW3DG.

It is called jealousy. Because, when looking back, you realize that you didn't move when you should have. Probably because you did not have the funds to do so...

Here is something to do though, when you are in such a position... talk to the third party developer... "Hey... I see you have this deal... I am short of money now, but... I wonder if you could give me this deal even though I can not act on it until next month?".

Do that, if you really want a plugin for a good price. Do not wait it out and, in a sort of retrospect, ask NewTek/LW3DG to make it up for you just because they happen to make a deal that you are not entitled to.

Does that make sense?

jwiede
08-13-2015, 07:53 PM
I wrote "some of you" and not "all of you". If you felt hurt by it, I can't really take a responsibility for your feelings. I was very vague about who "those are". I didn't single out you, or anyone else. I just wrote "some of you".

:rolleyes: How obliquely you describe them doesn't change that you're still deliberately attacking a specific target group.

prometheus
08-14-2015, 01:28 AM
I wrote "some of you" and not "all of you". If you felt hurt by it, I can't really take a responsibility for your feelings. I was very vague about who "those are". I didn't single out you, or anyone else. I just wrote "some of you".




I can understand that feeling and you being emotional about it..I think you have to be careful on how you put it though, such statement will undoubtly lead to folks questioning who you are refering to..even though you specify "some of you"
it opens up unnecessary blabber..this very thread is a proof of it.

It might not be so black and white all the time to why people have their arguments on why they donīt update or why they donīt think its a good deal, itīs their opinion, and if they voice it clearly and polite..that must be respected..Even though it might be tiresome to listen at..at least I think so.."some of you might not" and if those of you donīt..I would say..."such thinking would be sort of idiotic" not ...those of You are idiots...such formulation might have been better..even though it isnīt a very good formulation either.
Just my take on it.

We are all people with emotions though..and itīs not easy avoiding to venting them, if youré not like a donald trump figure who doesnīt care about being political correct :)

Dexter2999
08-14-2015, 03:00 AM
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/Dexter2999/Deal%20is%20the%20Deal.png


And to be fair, I almost ditched my charter for the Otoy promotion. But I didn't have the money for a highend card to justify it. Without the card I couldn't see the benefit offsetting the long term gain, so I am still riding the deal out.

jasonwestmas
08-14-2015, 06:51 AM
Right, if I get a deal I'll take the deal. I have no real reason to feel cheated if someone gets a better deal later on because that is a different deal from mine.

jeric_synergy
08-14-2015, 06:21 PM
you all should wrestle in custard wearing nothing butt DCC app tshirt, I would pay to see that.
Dude, have you SEEN this lot???



++
I just wish it were 3 less clicks to unsubscribe from a thread.

lightscape
08-14-2015, 09:47 PM
With your apparent reading comprehension I would imagine there is quite a lot that looks rather surreal.



You make a quote, parrot the point back to the poster and still completely miss the point, brilliant.

Thanks I try to be brilliant always. Which zone in London are you staying at? Is it the cheap zone? :D

lightscape
08-14-2015, 09:50 PM
See and that's what makes 0 sense at all. I could understand it if you are getting a discount but post charter members are NOT getting one. The charter membership only stipulates you get a discount on the next 5 upgrades and you must buy all of them to retain the membership. No where does it say that if you opted to buy the upgrade for the normal upgrade price you would get dropped from charter. This really isn't about entitlement, it is about what was agreed upon to maintain charter status. And as far as I can see if you bought the upgrade for "regular price" and chose not to use the "discounted" charter price, you are still fulfilling the stated conditions of the membership and you should not be dropped from it. Even though this deal doesn't apply to me since I already own both items in the bundle, I definitely find it disturbing that it is being handled this way.

Have you never changed mobile plans?
One mobile plans discount doesn't apply when you change plans and you're effectively removed from one if you go for the other.

I highlighted your statement because you already did get a discount. Its the 5 guaranteed fixed price for lw upgrades.
You don't call that a discount?

roboman
08-15-2015, 03:32 AM
I wasn't going to post on this again, but the accusations that any one not happy with the way Newtek or at least the Lightwave branch has acted regarding the whole core mess, is cheep, stupid, wanting free stuff, wanting lightwave programmers to work for free.....

The lightwave group made a mistake of selling something they hoped to make and then didn't. Some of those responsible for selling something that that didn't exist yet are no longer working for Newtek. The downtime cost them a lot of money. The new people took over a mess, changed things and offered a really strange deal to make up for what wasn't delivered...

The offer by Newtek to give people back their money, ya, I ask, they said no, they said yes to others later, but were back to no by the time I ask again. If I had EVER been able to download a copy of core I probably wouldn't have even ask for my money back. Not a huge deal. I upgraded to 11, mostly to support the company, because I like the software and would like to see it developed further. 11 had some interesting stuff, but nothing I have used. Several times I have made a bit of money with lightwave and got ready to upgrade to 2015. Then it gets thrown in my face that Newtek is either going to take away the post core deal they offered me or charge me more then others. I'm reminded I paid for core, never got to download even the beta and I haven't used any thing that wasn't in ver 9. I know the post core deal is likely worthless, so loosing it wouldn't be a big deal, money wise. So I paid for something I never got, was given a token and will now have that, likely worthless, token taken away if I don't pay extra. So that makes me cheep and ungrateful.

I get it, it's just business, they need money to run. It's been made clear to me. It seemed like more then just business, but every thing seems to get down to money at some point. I started making animations in the corners of books at the age of 4 or 5. Did the 8 mm film thing. Started trying to do computer animation in the 70's. I bought out a studio that was closing up and ended up with lightwave 3.5., Bought a new full ver of 5 for the pc, upgraded to 6 & 7, then 9, 10, 11. So thought it was more then just business and money, stupid, ya maybe. Cheep, don't know, I bought lots of upgrades in the past and just paid what seems like a lot of money for some new CAM software, I even have a copy of 3DSMax that's a few ver old. From my side, 9, 10, 11 all do every thing I need. 2015 doesn't do any thing new that I need. I would have gladly paid what others were paying for lightwave 2015, mostly to just support the developer, except for the demand for extra money or the loss of the post core thing. So I don't think I'm cheep or want something free. Wanting developers to work for free, hummm was willing to pay to support the company, just the demand for extra money or the loss of the post core thing felt like a knife in the back again. So ya, it's business. I'll use 11. If they come out with something new, that I have a use for, I'll look at what I have to pay to get it and decide if it's worth the upgrade.

>You don't call that a discount?

It's not a discount if you have to pay more :)

lightscape
08-15-2015, 03:47 AM
695 is the regular upgrade price. If you're charter you either pay 350 or 450. Not once, not twice, not thrice. But 5 times guaranteed.
No discount there? Just because they run the occasional discount people shouldn't ask for double discounts. That's too greedy. And no I'm not a lw fanboy. I criticize lw in a lot of threads. But pricing and value is pretty good with lw.

zarti
08-15-2015, 08:08 AM
I wrote "some of you" and not "all of you".

.. me ?

mav3rick
08-15-2015, 08:43 AM
while you are fighting/complaining im making money.. just my 2 cents.... i am very very rare on forum pas few years mainly due negativity.. thanks God for some of 3rd party threads and contributors well worth reading and so i am 90% of time in 3rd party section.

erikals
08-15-2015, 09:22 AM
this is nothing compared to LW CGtalk

and i'm sure other forums are not all that much better

though i don't agree with calling us/them idiots/cheap,
i can see that the lack of charter member attention was brought up

but i hope LightWavers start to realise that community communication and attention is not as high on the list as it used to be, it's more like on level with other companies now... absent.

my advice, if you are one of those who miss communication / attention from NT, put your focus elsewhere.

Lito
08-15-2015, 09:44 AM
695 is the regular upgrade price. If you're charter you either pay 350 or 450. Not once, not twice, not thrice. But 5 times guaranteed.
No discount there? Just because they run the occasional discount people shouldn't ask for double discounts. That's too greedy. And no I'm not a lw fanboy. I criticize lw in a lot of threads. But pricing and value is pretty good with lw.

I'll reply here and correct your mistakes. Upgrades for charter is $395, post charter is $495. Not one person was asking for double discounts. Current price of LW is $495 with a third party bundle so post charter members are paying more for their upgrade than non charter members. The terms of the charter is to get the discount you had to buy all the upgrades without missing one. If you miss one you lose out on the future and the max number of times you can get the price is 5 times.

Mobile plans are a completely different matter and don't apply to this discussion. If you wanted to make a comparison to those then NT/LW3DG would be in breach of contract if they canceled the charter membership for buying the bundle because the agreement to the charter membership never specified you couldn't buy a bundled priced upgrade, it only stated you had to buy the upgrade from NT to get that price. Since the regular bundled price is $495, then getting the bundle direct from NT is not in breach and membership terms are still fulfilled hence canceling charter because the user bought the bundle would technically be a breach of the charter membership agreement.

This discussion is simply due to the fact that post charter members wanting to upgrade now are getting shafted. You can argue that possible "future" upgrades will be cheaper for them but it still doesn't change the facts. A post charter member is going to get no discount this round, and will actually be paying more for the upgrade. This is not about a person who already bought the upgrade, this is a discussion that is arguing for the post charter member who right now as this offer is up wanting to upgrade. This has become a big deal because NT/LW3DG has always been receptive to the concerns of the user base especially after the goof that was core. But in this case, they are just slapping the face of some of their most loyal users and not acting like themselves but acting like Adobe or Autodesk. The funny thing is the number of post charter members is probably low enough that all this is doing is blemishing the once stellar customer friendly reputation that was NT/LW3DG.

mav3rick
08-15-2015, 10:53 AM
so it is all about money :) or how low can you go :) i am glad current offer is made with 3rd powers even though i bought it before i am not complaining cause i made money with it. seriously .... if you guys are hobbyist you should consider switching to some free 3d app since any serious package on market at the end costs you money and we can change very little about that. you cant live in someones house for free all the time unless you are squatting... there is ppl developing tolls. personally i would rather pay twice the money for next version than complain about they didnt deliver me something others have. maybe than they could hire and develop faster.

Oedo 808
08-15-2015, 11:57 AM
...Snipped irrelevant waffle...

So... being loyal to LW3DG today is this; You have a locked down upgradeprice for 5 years from the CORE thing. This upgradeprice is soley LW and no third party plugins. Anything beyond that is goodwill from LW3DG. Asking them for more

For more, more, MORE!? That post charter guarantee is currently worth nothing in monetary gain, so can you keep this nonsense in reserve until more actually is more.


It is called jealousy. Because, when looking back, you realize that you didn't move when you should have. Probably because you did not have the funds to do so...

Holy ****, are you doing someone down because they may not have had the funds to buy LWBrush when it was on offer, and now seeing as the amazing post charter deal nets them $0 advantage they would like not to be excluded. Guess what, people paid in their money early for Core, I don't think it's too much to ask that they get something in return other than a vague threat/promise that they might gain something from the future releases.

I would have thought LightWave has gained from artists who are for want of a better word, poor, yet still supported LW. If the LWG share your attitude then that loyalty is certainly not deserved and despite the aims Rob Powers might have, both you and he may be sorry if that changes. I've no doubt there are great aspirations, but it is between two stools one falls to the ground.


Here is something to do though, when you are in such a position... talk to the third party developer... "Hey... I see you have this deal... I am short of money now, but... I wonder if you could give me this deal even though I can not act on it until next month?".

Here's something to do, engage your brain, if that's even possible, and talk about something relevant.


Do that, if you really want a plugin for a good price. Do not wait it out and, in a sort of retrospect, ask NewTek/LW3DG to make it up for you just because they happen to make a deal that you are not entitled to.

Does that make sense?

No, that genuinely makes absolutely no sense in any way, shape or form, if it did then people should have already bought it when it was on sale at release, not looking to get it in a promotional bundle now, and this whole promotion would be completely and utterly redundant, and it isn't, which is more than can be said for the nonsense that keeps coming up here.


Thanks I try to be brilliant always. Which zone in London are you staying at? Is it the cheap zone?

You are special at least, I'll give you that. And I'm not in the cheap zone, unless you mean the transport zones which it could well be, whatever it is I'd wager it at about four thousand miles east of yours.


695 is the regular upgrade price. If you're charter you either pay 350 or 450. Not once, not twice, not thrice. But 5 times guaranteed.
No discount there?

No, not if it's the same price as everyone else, in fact rather than it being a discount it's a penalty if non-members get extra for the same price.


Just because they run the occasional discount people shouldn't ask for double discounts.

It's not a double discount, $495 minus the charter discount, which equals a grand total of $0 discount, add the bundles exclusion into the mix and what you actually have is a penalty. So is that what you are saying, that anyone who has taken advantage of the previous LWCAD and Poser offers should be excluded from this also? Because that's what yours and Cagemans's (though I hesitate to use the word in conjunction with the drivel posted) logic dictates.


That's too greedy.

Yeah really, I mean if this pattern continues why we'll have post charter members paying the same as everyone else while getting nothing other than the licence and at the same time non-charter members get the same price + bundled software, yeah that's real greed at play there.


And no I'm not a lw fanboy. I criticize lw in a lot of threads.

I can see that, and to think I don't believe Cageman was talking about you in the OP.


But pricing and value is pretty good with lw.

Yes it is.


while you are fighting/complaining im making money.. just my 2 cents.... i am very very rare on forum pas few years mainly due negativity.. thanks God for some of 3rd party threads and contributors well worth reading and so i am 90% of time in 3rd party section.


so it is all about money :) or how low can you go :) i am glad current offer is made with 3rd powers even though i bought it before i am not complaining cause i made money with it. seriously .... if you guys are hobbyist you should consider switching to some free 3d app since any serious package on market at the end costs you money and we can change very little about that. you cant live in someones house for free all the time unless you are squatting... there is ppl developing tolls. personally i would rather pay twice the money for next version than complain about they didnt deliver me something others have. maybe than they could hire and develop faster.

Hey mav3rick, while we are fighting/complaining why don't you do yourself and the rest of us a favour and go off and make some more of the money you were boasting about for yourself. I don't think anyone who had already bought the 3rd Powers toolset would be complaining, so if that's your beef you can go away happy.

Medi8or
08-15-2015, 12:56 PM
so it is all about money :) or how low can you go :) i am glad current offer is made with 3rd powers even though i bought it before i am not complaining cause i made money with it. seriously .... if you guys are hobbyist you should consider switching to some free 3d app since any serious package on market at the end costs you money and we can change very little about that. you cant live in someones house for free all the time unless you are squatting... there is ppl developing tolls. personally i would rather pay twice the money for next version than complain about they didnt deliver me something others have. maybe than they could hire and develop faster.May I ask what else the charter/post-charter deal is? Everything else that was promised has withered away. All that is left is the promise of a discount for the next 5 upgrades, and that discount seems to have some strings attached to it making it next to worthless for some people.
I have no idea why you attack hobbyists. Their money is as good as anyones. I haven't heard of any of them getting, or demanding, LW for free.

zarti
08-15-2015, 01:00 PM
so it is all about money :)

.. personally i would rather pay twice the money for next version than complain ..

here is my modest suggestion ;

- mathematically you will have -1 Complainer if you pay 0.5 of above mentioned money for one .

.. so > chose a random complainer from both threads > pay for him next upgrade > done !

-1



.cheers

m.d.
08-15-2015, 01:16 PM
I am a charter member....never bothered by the offer, own a few of the 3rd power tools but not all.

There is a valid point that the post charter price has no financial advantage in the light of the exact same price plus plugin bundles offered to everyone.

Good for people who waited and didn't buy into the charter.

Why would people attack other people for presenting this fact? Calling people cheap and 'hobbyist'

How many of you bought into the Turbulence group buy that Odeo orchestrated....was that cheap? A hobbyist move?

Newtek can market however they want, but they are training people that it may be better not to continually upgrade and wait for a better promotional deal....

I have no dog in this fight....i don't care either way, but if other people feel the need to point out how this seems to negate the advantage of charter pricing....why attack?

Going to stay out of this now....but really what else is going on in the forums?

Chris S. (Fez)
08-15-2015, 02:49 PM
....but really what else is going on in the forums?

IMO an Open Beta for "2016" with a corresponding forum would be a welcome distraction while keeping the community invested and focused on the future of LW...

cresshead
08-15-2015, 03:13 PM
Man, how long ago was CORE?

2011

Core Announced 04-Feb-09, cancelled 23 June 2011

so around 4 years since core was scrapped.

willin
08-15-2015, 06:33 PM
IMO an Open Beta for "2016" with a corresponding forum would be a welcome distraction while keeping the community invested and focused on the future of LW...

Should that be a an Open Beta for people that pre-order 2016 or should it be open-beta for everyone with an internet connection.

lightscape
08-15-2015, 06:45 PM
It's not a double discount, $495 minus the charter discount, which equals a grand total of $0 discount, add the bundles exclusion into the mix and what you actually have is a penalty. So is that what you are saying, that anyone who has taken advantage of the previous LWCAD and Poser offers should be excluded from this also? Because that's what yours and Cagemans's (though I hesitate to use the word in conjunction with the drivel posted) logic dictates.


But you WANT a double discount if you upgrade, right? Why else are you complaining?
You want to continue the charter discount AND something else(lwbrush as free?) for all the trouble Core has given you in the past.
That equals getting two things that you feel ENTITLED to. Hilarious.

bbuxton
08-15-2015, 06:47 PM
I am a charter member....never bothered by the offer, own a few of the 3rd power tools but not all.

There is a valid point that the post charter price has no financial advantage in the light of the exact same price plus plugin bundles offered to everyone.

Good for people who waited and didn't buy into the charter.

Why would people attack other people for presenting this fact? Calling people cheap and 'hobbyist'

How many of you bought into the Turbulence group buy that Odeo orchestrated....was that cheap? A hobbyist move?

Newtek can market however they want, but they are training people that it may be better not to continually upgrade and wait for a better promotional deal....

I have no dog in this fight....i don't care either way, but if other people feel the need to point out how this seems to negate the advantage of charter pricing....why attack?

Going to stay out of this now....but really what else is going on in the forums?

The Charter pricing was never understood to be a special offer. The pricing for Chater members was set to appease those who did not get the product that they paid for when Core was abandonned. To pretend that Charter pricing is some kind of special offer is dishonest. Noone purchased Chater as a prepaid discount on future versions of Lightwave. I don't need a special deal to upgrade Lightwave but crap like this is a huge disincentive.

roboman
08-15-2015, 08:14 PM
so it is all about money :) or how low can you go :) i am glad current offer is made with 3rd powers even though i bought it before i am not complaining cause i made money with it. seriously .... if you guys are hobbyist you should consider switching to some free 3d app since any serious package on market at the end costs you money and we can change very little about that. you cant live in someones house for free all the time unless you are squatting... there is ppl developing tolls. personally i would rather pay twice the money for next version than complain about they didnt deliver me something others have. maybe than they could hire and develop faster.

That's funny, I can't live in some ones house for free. Sure when I bought lightwave 3.5 it was part of a deal used with a toaster, amiga, recorders and a few cameras. When I bought Lightwave 5 I paid the full price. When I upgraded to 6 & 7 I paid the upgrade price. When I bought 9, 10, 11 I paid the upgrade price Newtek advertised. I also paid for Core. I also paid the full price for 3DStudio, then paid the full price for 3DSMax, as well as having paid for a couple of video editing programs and a lot of CAD and CAM programs. I have no idea where you pulled the idea that I'm demanding something for free. Hell, I paid Newtek for core and they killed it with me never even having had a chance to download it. The post core price lock is something I got in exchange for never having gotten what I PAID for. It just seems like Newtek has been trying to throw up new rules in order to not honer the post core pricing since.

I have no complaint about the price I paid for ver 3.5, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, or the after market plugins. I do have a small complaint with having paid for core and never getting a chance to download the pre release. I thought at the time that a fixed upgrade price for the next 5 ver was a thing that would go badly and end up with them looking for ways to not have to honer it. I have not a problem one with spending money on the things I want or doing with out if the price is to high. What I do have a problem with is not getting what I did pay for and a person or company trying to get out of a deal they have already been paid for.

PS I'm sure if you just sent Newtek a few thousand dollars to show your support they would be more then happy.

PSS If I really wanted Lightwave for free, there has always seemed to be a pirated copies all over the net, as well as Maya. Then yes, blender. They actually have some of my money. Yep, I'm dumb as a rock, "paid" to help support a free software, because I'm so cheep.

bazsa73
08-16-2015, 02:06 AM
Let's talk about CORE! That was a huge mistake imo though the initiative behind the notion to carry it into effect was good albeit
somewhat clumsy on the communication level. Now we have this upgrade charter issue. Free or not free? Hm hm hm. So much
issue to debate. C'mon fellow LWers, you can do better. Why don't you just do a nice personal project and post it in one of the
galleries.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-16-2015, 02:33 AM
Should that be a an Open Beta for people that pre-order 2016 or should it be open-beta for everyone with an internet connection.

Anyone with a Lightwave license willing to abide by a NDA.

roboman
08-16-2015, 02:41 AM
Yep. Should have left this alone. You are right. Let go of the non productive stuff and get back to doing productive things.

mav3rick
08-16-2015, 04:27 AM
May I ask what else the charter/post-charter deal is? Everything else that was promised has withered away. All that is left is the promise of a discount for the next 5 upgrades, and that discount seems to have some strings attached to it making it next to worthless for some people.
I have no idea why you attack hobbyists. Their money is as good as anyones. I haven't heard of any of them getting, or demanding, LW for free.

1st of all i am not attacking hobbyists and i apologize if i offended any of you but i cannot understand complaining for just about anything that comes from LW3DG whenever it is promo sale or release versions.
As hobbyist you have freedom to choose trial versions from huge variety of 3d apps and if LW is not app of your choice due policy or features you are free to jump to other wagon.
I can understand current offer is not fair for some of users... to hell i bought some of 3dpowers plugins on full price or turbulance 4d out of group buy but again i am not here to complain if someone will get it for better price as it will lead me nowhere than destructive anger. If this promo help us to get 10,20 or 50 new lw members i am happy.

prometheus
08-16-2015, 08:52 AM
He..he..itīs an interesting thread if you care to think about the mechanics or some philosophy around it.

I wonder if "those people" whoīs in the focus for the allegation of being cheap and only wanting stuff for free, if Such people would have showned up with their "outragous" claims..if it were not for the "core" creation.
And with this question we can take a look at Frankensteins monster, in this case I suggest Frankenstein being the core marketer and developers, and the monster is "those people" claiming their rights to better deals.
So it follows that if the creation isnīt good enough ..the consequences will be that the creation will hunt and follow the creator for a long ..long time.
So a question could be if that might be a Huge factor ..if we think about what is motivating people claiming better deals, not going in to specific detail and offerings..some people have already done that.

Just thinking about the mechanics of it all, not going in to whoīs right and wrong...and to conclude.
Would it be equally as much people claiming better deals if it werenīt for core? and the following healing offerings that folks could or couldnīt take part of, or is it that these claims for better deals have absolutly nothing to do with that..and is more of a nature
of people wanting a better deal regardless?

Be careful what you dream of ..what you create..or what you write..it may continue in to eons of trails going back to the creation.
Letīs all go and make a nuke, to save people..nothing else, time will tell if it was a good idea..or if it will haunt us for as long as we live.

Medi8or
08-16-2015, 09:00 AM
1st of all i am not attacking hobbyists and i apologize if i offended any of you but i cannot understand complaining for just about anything that comes from LW3DG whenever it is promo sale or release versions.
As hobbyist you have freedom to choose trial versions from huge variety of 3d apps and if LW is not app of your choice due policy or features you are free to jump to other wagon.
I can understand current offer is not fair for some of users... to hell i bought some of 3dpowers plugins on full price or turbulance 4d out of group buy but again i am not here to complain if someone will get it for better price as it will lead me nowhere than frustration like i dont have it enough every day from working with clients. If this promo help us to get 10,20 or 50 new lw members i am happy.

Again. Why do you single out hobbyists? Not the right kind of money? Not the right kind of people?
You didn't really answer the question. What else than a question of money is the charter/post-charter deal? Proof of support to Newtek? Some kind of coolness factor I don't know about?
Oh. The pleasure of paying more for an upgrade, because it MAY save you money when the next upgrade comes?

erikals
08-16-2015, 09:03 AM
i think it's more about giving, or rather, the lack of giving, post charter members attention

but people have been verbal about it before, and nothing changed, and it's not going to, so my advice, just try to move on

mav3rick
08-16-2015, 09:13 AM
Again. Why do you single out hobbyists? Not the right kind of money? Not the right kind of people?
You didn't really answer the question. What else than a question of money is the charter/post-charter deal? Proof of support to Newtek? Some kind of coolness factor I don't know about?
Oh. The pleasure of paying more for an upgrade, because it MAY save you money when the next upgrade comes?

if you make 3d for living, i am sure you wouldn't bother with this kind of things, so you can single me out as whatever i tell you. i was loyal customer of automotive brand for 20 years still they didnt call me out to get my next car with big discount neither they care about helping fix it out of warranty even though i was really loyal?.if ur charter be happy your locked for 5 years compared to this newcomers that will pay extra next time. make conclusion however you like out of this...as erikals said.. i think we should move on until next LW3DG announce piss you off. obviously you dont get my point as much i dont get yours.

Lito
08-16-2015, 09:16 AM
so it is all about money :) or how low can you go :) i am glad current offer is made with 3rd powers even though i bought it before i am not complaining cause i made money with it. seriously .... if you guys are hobbyist you should consider switching to some free 3d app since any serious package on market at the end costs you money and we can change very little about that. you cant live in someones house for free all the time unless you are squatting... there is ppl developing tolls. personally i would rather pay twice the money for next version than complain about they didnt deliver me something others have. maybe than they could hire and develop faster.
Isn't everything about money? :)

Hobbyist, professional, corporation, doesn't matter, everyone wants to get whatever they need at the lowest price they can get it for. It's just common sense. No one willfully looks at 2 exact items and chooses to buy the more expensive one.

Like I said earlier I am not included in this either way I already upgraded via charter and I already bought LWBrush, I have no ill feelings about the bundle being offered, but I will still call out NT/LW3DG for being real unfriendly (to be PC about the terminology) to their post charter members who might finally have wanted to buy into the upgrade now. I can completely understand them not offering the bundle to charter members who get it for $395, but to post charter members who are paying the same price as regular upgrade customers well yeah they are being real ... well you know.

But that's all I wanted to say. I will drop this now but for some reason I can't seem to look away from the topic lol :)

kadri
08-16-2015, 09:47 AM
They made a deal with those who were there in the Core fiasco times.
They still are holding to what they said.
The prices are lower and you might feel cheated...that is normal.

If the price were higher would you feel the same?

What if 2016 or 2017 will be twice the price?

These are standard sales practices and no one is cheating here.
You should know that firms does have to make decisions sometimes that they know that one group will not like.
It is clear that they will like to see the charter deal go away and don't care so much.

Go sue them.

You can't win??? ...so?

And don't try to answer that it is no so simple...nothing is.
Newtek is since years one of the most user friendly firm i know from a pricing point of their software.
But yeah they do the same things as others do too. Maybe they have to, i don't know.
You might feel cheated, but i really don't see how much is there to write about this.
You made me write here too in the end...what a waste of time.

Medi8or
08-16-2015, 10:23 AM
They made a deal with those who were there in the Core fiasco times.
They still are holding to what they said.
The prices are lower and you might feel cheated...that is normal.

If the price were higher would you feel the same?

What if 2016 or 2017 will be twice the price?


Yes, and what if 2016 or 2017 upgrade price will be only $195. Not very likely, I know, but what was given to "ease the pain" of losing Core quickly turned into a gamble of future savings.
If what you are looking for is a guarantee that your upgrade price doesn't get higher that $395/$495, then brilliant, I guess paying a bit more than the current upgrade price can be worth that to some people.

Oedo 808
08-16-2015, 10:37 AM
But you WANT a double discount if you upgrade, right? Why else are you complaining?
You want to continue the charter discount AND something else(lwbrush as free?) for all the trouble Core has given you in the past.
That equals getting two things that you feel ENTITLED to. Hilarious.

A discount, you're right, that's exactly what it was, people can wax lyrical all they like, it wasn't seen as or talked about as anything but that, however, here we are. And even then when there's nothing between to two, yep that's a single discount whichever way you look at it, you can cry foul when there's an appreciable difference, and actually shouldn't you be able to cry foul when on being stacked there is no difference? I mean doesn't that mean that someone's discount is worthless, oh right I forgot it's a pervasive 'guarantee', and even then the beneficiaries are completely in the dark as to whether it'll actually be of any benefit at all, and it's that which is really bad practice. Well I'm sure they'll know with hindsight, a great position to put your customers in. Are you going to berate those who got the Poser Pro discount on 11 and are now looking to do the same with LWBrush and 2015? I mean if a discount on 11 with no discount on 2015 is the most you should expect as a post-charter member, then non-charter members getting a discount on both, well that must be horrendous, surely?


1st of all i am not attacking hobbyists and i apologize if i offended any of you but i cannot understand complaining for just about anything that comes from LW3DG whenever it is promo sale or release versions.
As hobbyist you have freedom to choose trial versions from huge variety of 3d apps and if LW is not app of your choice due policy or features you are free to jump to other wagon.
I can understand current offer is not fair for some of users... to hell i bought some of 3dpowers plugins on full price or turbulance 4d out of group buy but again i am not here to complain if someone will get it for better price as it will lead me nowhere than destructive anger. If this promo help us to get 10,20 or 50 new lw members i am happy.

I don't know if you are following this but it's quite simple, people can upgrade to 2015 for $495 and get LWBrush as part of a special, everyone except post charter-members, why are you talking about people who've already bought and blah blah blah, it seems like you don't even know what the issue is and it's more than apparent this isn't worth your valuable time, what are you doing here, go and make some money and laugh at us all chatting here while you get rich.



i think it's more about giving, or rather, the lack of giving, post charter members attention

but people have been verbal about it before, and nothing changed, and it's not going to, so my advice, just try to move on

No, because something isn't right here, and you know it.

kadri
08-16-2015, 10:38 AM
Yes, and what if 2016 or 2017 upgrade price will be only $195. Not very likely, I know, but what was given to "ease the pain" of losing Core quickly turned into a gamble of future savings.
If what you are looking for is a guarantee that your upgrade price doesn't get higher that $395/$495, then brilliant, I guess paying a bit more than the current upgrade price can be worth that to some people.

It isn't unheard that in such situations the deals are changed to the new conditions.
Even Governments do this when a long therm contract isn't up to the times.
I would say it would be the right thing to lower the charter deal price too in that condition.

But this isn't the case now.
And everybody that took the deal at the time was taking the risks too actually. It is always so in long therm deals.
Nobody can guaranty that everything will go as planed for 5-10 years or whatever. And we all should know this better ;) Especially the charter members.

mav3rick
08-16-2015, 11:14 AM
A discount, you're right, that's exactly what it was, people can wax lyrical all they like, it wasn't seen as or talked about as anything but that, however, here we are. And even then when there's nothing between to two, yep that's a single discount whichever way you look at it, you can cry foul when there's an appreciable difference, and actually shouldn't you be able to cry foul when on being stacked there is no difference? I mean doesn't that mean that someone's discount is worthless, oh right I forgot it's a pervasive 'guarantee', and even then the beneficiaries are completely in the dark as to whether it'll actually be of any benefit at all, and it's that which is really bad practice. Well I'm sure they'll know with hindsight, a great position to put your customers in. Are you going to berate those who got the Poser Pro discount on 11 and are now looking to do the same with LWBrush and 2015? I mean if a discount on 11 with no discount on 2015 is the most you should expect as a post-charter member, then non-charter members getting a discount on both, well that must be horrendous, surely?



I don't know if you are following this but it's quite simple, people can upgrade to 2015 for $495 and get LWBrush as part of a special, everyone except post charter-members, why are you talking about people who've already bought and blah blah blah, it seems like you don't even know what the issue is and it's more than apparent this isn't worth your valuable time, what are you doing here, go and make some money and laugh at us all chatting here while you get rich.



No, because something isn't right here, and you know it.

Please no need reacting like that.iv checked once again full offer from NT and i missed this upgrade + lw brush part. i am apologizing for not getting full picture and if i offended anyone with earning money using 3d software for living, this wasn't my intention.
even after that theres not much you can do about it. it clearly say this cannot be used for charter members and so people that upgrade with this offer for sure next time will have to pay more for next lw version than those who are locked into charter membership means you save money with each version. i am sure sooner or later 3dpowers will give another sale for everyone missed their Christmas promotion. its all about marketing decisions and better for you is either move on or wait for somethin that will be fair for you. for me even if this looks tempting locked 5 year charter price is still better saver than this single upgrade.

Medi8or
08-16-2015, 12:49 PM
It isn't unheard that in such situations the deals are changed to the new conditions.
Even Governments do this when a long therm contract isn't up to the times.
I would say it would be the right thing to lower the charter deal price too in that condition.

But this isn't the case now.We've just had a month or so with an upgrade price of $395, followed by the bundle for $495. For post-charter, it is the case now. Next week, next year, who knows.


And everybody that took the deal at the time was taking the risks too actually. It is always so in long therm deals.
Nobody can guaranty that everything will go as planed for 5-10 years or whatever. And we all should know this better ;) Especially the charter members. I doubt anyone thought there was some kind of risk involved in the charter deal...

Medi8or
08-16-2015, 12:58 PM
*snip* .. and so people that upgrade with this offer for sure next time will have to pay more for next lw version than those who are locked into charter membership means you save money with each version. That's the thing. How do you know?

kadri
08-16-2015, 01:00 PM
...

I doubt anyone thought there was some kind of risk involved in the charter deal...

I did.

Oedo 808
08-16-2015, 01:11 PM
Please no need reacting like that.iv checked once again full offer from NT and i missed this upgrade + lw brush part. i am apologizing for not getting full picture and if i offended anyone with earning money using 3d software for living, this wasn't my intention.
even after that theres not much you can do about it. it clearly say this cannot be used for charter members and so people that upgrade with this offer for sure next time will have to pay more for next lw version than those who are locked into charter membership means you save money with each version. i am sure sooner or later 3dpowers will give another sale for everyone missed their Christmas promotion. its all about marketing decisions and better for you is either move on or wait for somethin that will be fair for you. for me even if this looks tempting locked 5 year charter price is still better saver than this single upgrade.

mav3rick, please excuse me if I happen to get a bit hot under the collar. We all know what even the post-charter special price was when it was used as an enticement, despite its misappropriation to suit, looking back at an older thread there's only one person who mentions guarantee to everyone else's discount, you can guess who that is, ya, it's all the users fault they got the wrong end of the stick. So the post charter users have seen a $200 discount on 11, but with exclusion from "upgrade to LightWave 11 from an earlier version of LightWave and receive Smith Micro’s Poser Pro 2012 software free (a $499 savings)", and now they are saving $0 on 2015 yet still have the exclusion from "Upgrade to LightWave 2015 + 3rd Powers LW Brush Including $169 value 3rd Powers LW Brush Tool" That is not what anyone can call reasonable expectation from those who were enticed into the membership in the first place, nor is wanting a bit more parity with the ordinary user anything that could be described as greedy. What also gets me is that there is this 'maybe' hanging over the whole thing which means we could see users hanging onto their membership because like you they think it sounds like a good deal, and things don't go according to plan for LW3DG and they have to keep the same price running a bit longer, it means we could see these users ending up with their $200 discount and missing out on Poser Pro, LWBrush and any other offer that comes along in that time. That's what I don't like, not that just this one time they might lose out, even though I don't think that in itself is particularly fair. And I don't think it's fair that people are saying 'wait and see', how can anyone be expected to make a decision based on that?

Do you really think it really that bad to want LW3DG to take the stance "Hey guys, we're not certain on how things will pan out, and neither are you, so for the post-charter guys, instead hanging on each time and passing up on these deals because of the uncertainty and getting nothing out of it, we'll let you take the same as everyone else, that way if we have to keep the low pricing for a bit longer, you don't need lose out".

Lino has said he is excited for 2016, although he's hardly going to say, "Nah, it's crap", if they have a reasonable estimation of what they intend to do, the least they could say is that the price will be going up with 2016 so that when they are happy to point out users can ditch their membership, at least they'll know what they'll be choosing. I think that some are trying to focus on technicalities is rather telling. And if the 'if' turns out that the price does go up with 2016 and post-charter members get benefit from it, so what? After all is said and done you can say all this crying was because as a goodwill gesture LW3DG gave post-charter member a deal on LWBrush when they garnered no benefit from the special pricing? Really, that's enough to generate such debate? I think Cageman is right, jealousy does come into it, but from a completely different angle.

kadri
08-16-2015, 01:11 PM
"I did"

That sounds maybe a little smart-aleckly but we had a real life 5 year long contract problem many years ago.
And so far i remember there were other users here that debated the cons and pros too.

Lito
08-16-2015, 01:21 PM
Just had to post these :

NT/LW3DG: https://youtu.be/jsW9MlYu31g
Members: https://youtu.be/A-sA-NqMlvI

couldn't help myself. :)

kadri
08-16-2015, 01:29 PM
Ok, i hope this is my last post in this thread because i feel the opposite now (nothing to do with you Lito) :)

http://whenthesidewalkends.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/WastingTime.jpeg

Oedo 808
08-16-2015, 01:32 PM
Just had to post these :

NT/LW3DG: https://youtu.be/jsW9MlYu31g
Members: https://youtu.be/A-sA-NqMlvI

couldn't help myself. :)

Thanks for the light relief :D



Ok, i hope this is my lost post in this thread because i feel the opposite now (nothing to do with you Lito)

http://whenthesidewalkends.com/wp-co...stingTime.jpeg

Bah, and I'd just responded to all your points, however that will halt your escape so I won't post them, I know exactly how you feel, believe it or not.

kadri
08-16-2015, 01:40 PM
...

Bah, and I'd just responded to all your points, however that will halt your escape so I won't post them, I know exactly how you feel, believe it or not.


Like deals can change in time i can change my mind too of course,who knows :)

Vong
08-16-2015, 04:38 PM
This thread was missing something.... :D

129290

Back on topic....

I'm a Charter member. I upgraded to 2015 back in January and bought all of the 3rd Powers plug-ins at that time. Also bought a bunch of other plug-ins. Am I concerned about the deals? No. There will always be deals. Even as I seem to be moving more towards hobbiest from freelancer, I will always try to purchase what I need, when I need it. In fact, right now there's several things I wish I could purchase to help me in LW, but with just buying/moving into a new home, I'm just gonna have to struggle! :)

bbuxton
08-16-2015, 08:34 PM
I'm a post charter member and at the point where the Core fiasco resulted in the whole idea being abandoned Maxon had a good deal for sidegrades and I switched to Cinema 4D. For the most part the decision was a good one. There are still things that Lightwave handles much better than Cinema 4D so I have tried to keep both applications reasonably current. The problem with the handling of this issue is not really about the deal or special offers it is about competance and management. What convinced me to move to Cinema 4D was not that Core failed but why it failed. The handling of Charter and Post Charter accounts shows very clearly that nothing has changed here and that promlems like this will continue to plague LW3DG for some time to come.

lightscape
08-16-2015, 08:45 PM
The Charter pricing was never understood to be a special offer. The pricing for Chater members was set to appease those who did not get the product that they paid for when Core was abandonned. To pretend that Charter pricing is some kind of special offer is dishonest. Noone purchased Chater as a prepaid discount on future versions of Lightwave. I don't need a special deal to upgrade Lightwave but crap like this is a huge disincentive.

This situation is not unique.
In any business when something doesn't push through or customer satisfaction was not realized, the company in question offers incentives, discounts, promos.
They gave people the choice. I almost refunded but at the last minute I said well 5 fixed upgrade price for lightwave is better than waiting for 10-15 years of Core development.

To me what transpired is a discount offer. To others its a ex-girlfriend that they feel they can't get over with. :D

bbuxton
08-16-2015, 10:16 PM
This situation is not unique.
In any business when something doesn't push through or customer satisfaction was not realized, the company in question offers incentives, discounts, promos.
They gave people the choice. I almost refunded but at the last minute I said well 5 fixed upgrade price for lightwave is better than waiting for 10-15 years of Core development.

To me what transpired is a discount offer. To others its a ex-girlfriend that they feel they can't get over with. :D

It's true I still have the hots for Lightwave :D
But she needs to get her act together if she wants a viable future together <3

BokadCastle
08-16-2015, 10:29 PM
But she needs to get her act together if she wants...

Well, as Donald Trump said to Megyn Kelly...um, perhaps not.

Surrealist.
08-16-2015, 10:29 PM
The price of LightWave has also shifted since then, hasn't it? And the upgrade price now is not the upgrade price when you "bought in" to that deal. Or maybe I have that wrong. But as far as I can see it is now 496 and before it was 695. Also LightWave was more expensive back then. Anticipating the overall shift of future pricing, (up or down) it may have been a bit a more fair offer (to both parties) to make it a percentage of the upgrade price rather than a fixed price.

But in any case regardless. I think these things are never quite perfect. And there is always going to be someone with a different opinion. But because the deal is between them and LW 3D Group, the deal should be discussed with LW 3D Group.

Having been on the business side of things most of my life, I understand the value of customer satisfaction. In the event of outrageous demands, of course, I have always been fine with blowing people off. But the larger percentage of the time, it is a very wide grey area that can only be defined in simple terms. Making sure your customer is satisfied with the service or product, which means listening to their needs and delivering what they want. Which almost always requires some compromise. I have done quite well by that principle alone. It is the cornerstone of repeat business.

And most good people in business understand this. So, again, if anyone has a beef, bring it up directly with Customer Service. At least be fair to them and give them the chance to say no. NewTek is not a government agency living by some strict law. They are just people like you and I trying to make a go of it in a very competitive market.

lightscape
08-16-2015, 11:17 PM
Anticipating the overall shift of future pricing, (up or down) it may have been a bit a more fair offer (to both parties) to make it a percentage of the upgrade price rather than a fixed price.

Inflation, interest rate, etc, its always a bet. In my case, I rather have the fixed rate than percentage in anything I buy. Atleast I know its going to be less than 500 bucks no matter what to upgrade a lw license. I can easily put 2 bucks a day in a jar to upgrade to the next version. People can't spare 2 bucks a day? :D

spherical
08-16-2015, 11:26 PM
Near the close of the previous LW special, where upgrades for qualifying seats were $395, we took that path and upgraded our second seat, because that's a good deal. The next month, the LW2015/LWBrush special was announced for $495. We had already purchased LWB for both seats when 3rd Powers had a sale on it. So, I'd say that we hit the sweet spot.

Upon reading these discussions and then further reflection on the matter, it appears that a look at this from another vector may be in order.

Consider that:

Post-Charter upgrades are $495
LWB is normally $169
LW 2015 Upgrade + LWB is $495
3rd Powers cannot be expected to give their plugin away completely free just because it is in an authorized LW3DG bundle
Therefore, some give on both sides is more than probable
For ease of math, let's say that LW3DG dropped their price to the earlier special level of $395 (Very probable... why not continue at the same price point and add an incentive?)
3rd Powers dropped their LWB price by $69 (Very probable... a blessing from LW3DG, more exposure and more customers)
This, then, would be the makeup of the LW2015 Upgrade/LWB bundle price: $395 + $100 = $495
If Post-Charter holders take advantage of the $495 LW2015 Upgrade/LWB bundle price, they are not fulfilling their end of the Post-Charter deal, because they are not paying the agreed upon $495 for this upgrade.... unless 3rd Powers was being REALLY magnanimous and giving their plugin away free and LW3DG keeps all of the $495 (not likely)

It's fair. It's logical.

In light of that, I rescind my previous post position on the matter and I feel that others just might want to read this over again if they didn't get it.

Surrealist.
08-16-2015, 11:40 PM
Inflation, interest rate, etc, its always a bet. In my case, I rather have the fixed rate than percentage in anything I buy. Atleast I know its going to be less than 500 bucks no matter what to upgrade a lw license. I can easily put 2 bucks a day in a jar to upgrade to the next version. People can't spare 2 bucks a day? :D

Yes but the fixed price option in reality has hurt the user end of the bargain as we speak. It is no longer the savings it once was. (I could be challenged on that as I may have it wrong) But it was just an aside note even worth debating the particulars of at this point.

The reason I pointed that out is because of the various things one can not predict into the future. And because of this, no deal will be perfect, and totally open for discussion with LW 3D Group.

But really pointless here.

mav3rick
08-17-2015, 03:48 AM
but guys lets be honest..
lw is not hot cookie on market and not everyone will jump on this deal. in fact we struggle to keep current customers and to attract new ones. this discussion doesnt help either as it put bad light on both LW3DG, LW and community.

In that light lets be more tolerant even if upgrade offer does look little off to charters, can't we be welcome to new users and new upgrade users just in sake of community.
if nothin else lets just be there for new people that might join us to work in lightwave and work on building up this community else on this forum we will see even less people discuss or stop by.

As i previously said ... this offer will not attract lot of users but if we can get 50 more users i think it deservs support however it looks bad to us charter members its marketing and LW3DG is for sure in hard position judge what to do when you have strong competitors like Foundry, maxon, autodesk.

seghier
08-17-2015, 08:34 AM
maybe lightwave 2016 will include 3dpowers !

prometheus
08-17-2015, 09:52 AM
maybe lightwave 2016 will include 3dpowers !

It may also not:D

I am not against it though I donīt think it will happen.
maybe lightwave 2015 rev 5, may contain most of the free node stuff from dpont, if He is getting a lot of donations..that might not be under consideration, but if he could get more if he simple sells it to the lightwave group, or simply getting payed for the work he does..while providing it within the lightwave package, that would be nice since it might reach more people not being aware his stuff...lightwave without those nodes would be like butter without bread...or something like that:D

erikals
08-17-2015, 10:10 AM
we'll see in 3― months... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/lwicon.png

m.d.
08-17-2015, 11:49 AM
but guys lets be honest..
lw is not hot cookie on market and not everyone will jump on this deal. in fact we struggle to keep current customers and to attract new ones. this discussion doesnt help either as it put bad light on both LW3DG, LW and community.

In that light lets be more tolerant even if upgrade offer does look little off to charters, can't we be welcome to new users and new upgrade users just in sake of community.
if nothin else lets just be there for new people that might join us to work in lightwave and work on building up this community else on this forum we will see even less people discuss or stop by.

As i previously said ... this offer will not attract lot of users but if we can get 50 more users i think it deservs support however it looks bad to us charter members its marketing and LW3DG is for sure in hard position judge what to do when you have strong competitors like Foundry, maxon, autodesk.

totally realistic and logical points.....and I can totally agree with...

Much better than calling people cheap hobbyists....:)

Surrealist.
08-17-2015, 12:17 PM
It may also not:D

I am not against it though I donīt think it will happen.
maybe lightwave 2015 rev 5, may contain most of the free node stuff from dpont, if He is getting a lot of donations..that might not be under consideration, but if he could get more if he simple sells it to the lightwave group, or simply getting payed for the work he does..while providing it within the lightwave package, that would be nice since it might reach more people not being aware his stuff...lightwave without those nodes would be like butter without bread...or something like that:D

Very good point. I remember I always had my list of can't-live-without-plugins for LW. Kinds of things that should be standard features. And DP stuff is just amazing. I agree it would be a boon for LW to have a guy like that on the team.

Oedo 808
08-19-2015, 02:18 AM
Consider that:...

While I find it bizarre that anyone would think it a good idea to exclude post-charter members by citing the special purchase price as something of a stick to beat the user with, even if you accept that as fair, your post seems to suggest that charter members ought to be allowed to partake in the offer even if post-charter members cannot? I wouldn't find that fair even as a charter member, the logic is debatable given what you believe was a reasonable expectation, but fairness? I'm not sure I'm seeing it at all.


totally realistic and logical points.....and I can totally agree with...

Yeah, I'm not going to keep banging the drum, I'd rather play with Linux, although VirtualBox is giving me grief since I updated for some reason. Anyway I'm certainly happy to welcome new members, even (I say even, it was never an issue) those who got the full 3rd Powers bundle, it's a great deal indeed, so let's hope we see some new faces around here.

erikals
08-19-2015, 02:38 AM
patience...

just 3 months, 1 week 'till LightWave 2016

spherical
08-19-2015, 09:06 AM
but fairness? I'm not sure I'm seeing it at all.

I'll agree with that.