PDA

View Full Version : Should Newtek release a 7.5 update for Mac OS 10.3 compatibility?



mlinde
12-05-2003, 09:46 AM
With the release of 10.3 in October, Lightwave 3D 7.5 became incompatible with the current Mac OS. As this discussion has been circulating since then, this poll is specifically to gauge demand for a 7.5 release to correct this issue.

Although Lightwave 8 is in development, and scheduled for release before the end of the year, many users have expressed concern that for those wishing to upgrade to 10.3 but not Lightwave 8, Newtek should release a 7.5 update at some point. Please express your opinions in the poll, and comment, if you like.

Orange
12-05-2003, 09:51 AM
yes, of course. have to be an natural commitment concerning Newtek.

NonPlanar
12-05-2003, 10:21 AM
Thanks for putting up this poll. Let's see if it makes a difference.


Dirk.

Scott Gammans
12-05-2003, 10:43 AM
I voted "Yes, but Lightwave 8 should be the top priority." I would be quite satisfied with NewTek announcing that they will be releasing a patch shortly after they get LW8 out the door. Heck, I would be satisfied (albeit peeved) if they announced that there would be no patch--at least all of us would finally know where we stand with NewTek.

Leaving us hanging in limbo with no patch announcement and no incentive to upgrade to LW8 (other than to get a version that works on Panther) is what's bugging me.

Beamtracer
12-05-2003, 08:01 PM
At first, I thought it would be good to get a free upgrade to be compatible with Panther. However, knowing that Newtek's resources are not infinite, I changed my mind.

If the question says "would you like a free upgrade to Panther, or would you prefer to pay (for LW8) before you can use Panther, most people will say "give me a free one".

However, if the question was rephrased to say: "Would you like resources taken away from Lightwave 8 development and redirected to LW7.5d, leaving you with two buggier versions instead of one stable LW8?" I think you'd get a different answer.

There's no use having LW7.5d if it's not going to be stable. If resources are stretched, it's better to have one version that works really well (LW8) than two that don't.

If creating LW7.5d results in us getting two buggy releases, it's just not worth anything, even if it is free.

Let's concentrate all resources on LW8.
Forget 7.5d.

luka
12-05-2003, 08:25 PM
yes I think a patch would be good as LW is stalling me from upgrading to 10.3.

I keep looking at that Panther packaging just waiting...

Chazz
12-06-2003, 05:53 AM
I think some of us here are missing the big picture. This isn't just an issue of money and whether we can or want to upgrade. (I ordered my upgrade last month) While I have no doubt that 8 will be fantastic, point releases of software are notoriously buggy. (anyone remember 6?) 7.5 is the most stable Lightwave release in years. Those of us working on the mac and in the middle of projects shouldn't be forced to upgrade. Anyone ever try opening a scene file from 7.5 on a 7 or 6.5 machine?

And yes, I know that while no one is holding a gun to our heads and saying we have to be using Panther. In my case, I decided to make the jump to a new G5 that comes with Panther preinstalled.

My 2 cents.

SponZz
12-06-2003, 06:11 AM
Yes, NewTek should take care that users with version 7.5 get an update, otherwise there trust in the company is lost, and they will not upgrade anymore!

NigelH
12-06-2003, 02:01 PM
I think Newtek also needs to be aware of users' perceptions whether conscious or otherwise (and most likely, they are). I have not upgraded to Panther - though I'd REALLY like to - simply because I need a working version of LightWave. In this case, while I'm perfectly able to continue working unhindered, my perception is that Newtek is holding me back... even though Apple is the one that changed things. Whether it's their fault or not, Newtek is the company that will lose 'hearts and minds' (to coin a popular phrase) over this situation. Releasing LW8 in a timely manner is only a partial solution to the problem, since, as has been noted before, any new version must run for a probationary period before being thrown into the production pipeline full time. This generally means having 2 versions of LightWave (under Jaguar) for a while before committing to Panther - further delaying the opportunity to upgrade. A wise and necessary process overall, but still quite inconvenient and guess who'll get the blame for causing the inconvenience?

Again, this may not be Newtek's fault, but it IS their problem.

Beamtracer
12-06-2003, 04:10 PM
I'm bursting to use the Panther OS also, as I've also got a G5.

However, my main priority is that Lightwave is stable and operating well. It's my main tool. It must work.

I think the aim should be to have a new version of Lightwave that is the best, most stable possible.

Newtek is not Microsoft. They don't have an army of programmers. In Newtek's former software engineering team, there was only one Mac programmer.

Did you know that this single guy (Matt Craig, who works somewhere else now) single handedly ported Lightwave to Mac OSX. That's the version of Lightwave you're probably using now (LW6-7.5).

Just one guy.

Now to the present. New development team. However, it is still a small and compact team. I don't know what the numbers of people are, but I guess it would be single figures for all Lightwave development.

This includes creating the "common code base", and from that making the Windows and Mac ports.

You realize that if Newtek tries to make LW7.5d as well as LW8, the same number of people will be working on two versions instead of one.

There have been some updates to Lightwave in the past that weren't tested and bug-fixed enough before their release. I don't want this to happen again. I don't want the bug-fixing to be watered down any more than it is now.

If Newtek were as big as Microsoft I'd say, yeah, make 7.5d as well as 8. In reality they're not that big.

It's better to make one version of Lightwave (8) and get it right.

toby
12-07-2003, 02:07 PM
Unfortunately the odds are that there will be some issues with 8 that will keep them from putting a 7.5 patch on top priority, albeit a high priority for Scott.

Several good points made here, a 7.5 patch is more important than I realized - I can only speculate on whether or not they will leave us out in the cold/force us to upgrade, by deciding not to make a patch.

Ade
12-07-2003, 05:37 PM
I feel they can kill two birds with one stone:


No more development for 7.5, force everyone to move to LW8 BUT intern give us mac lightwavers a special deal that we have been waiting for since the DFX no go deal...

A cheaper LW8 for mac users only for a limited time offer.

roberthurt
12-07-2003, 05:53 PM
I think beamtracer nailed it.

If 8.0 fixes the Panther bugs, wonderful, but that in no way minimizes the need for 7.5 stability under Panther.

In any production environment one does not have the luxury of leaping to upgrade to the hot-off-the-press 8.0 release, especially knowing the history of instability and compatibility issues surrounding any .0 release.

If we don't have a stable 7.5 release under Panther, then we can't upgrade to Panther until all projects are closed off safely requiring 7.5, and all 8.0 compatibility issues have been handled.

For many, this could take MONTHS, and for those buying new machines, they're really just out of luck.

I really wish Lightwave was not mission-critical to me right now because I really could use several key Panther features at work for some of my non-animation needs.

But more than anything I wish NewTek would ANNOUNCE THEIR D**M INTENTIONS ON THIS MATTER. We've been at "aware of the problem" and "MAYBE fix 7.5" for a couple months now!

I'd rather them just say, "No, we're not fixing 7.5" or "Yes, but after 8.0", or WHATEVER, so I could make appropriate arrangements and move on. I HATE being held hostage by a single app!

riki
12-07-2003, 08:16 PM
I think 8 definately needs to address any issues relating to OS10.3 but I wouldn't expect a patch for 7.

Rey
12-08-2003, 02:26 AM
Yes, a patch for 7.5 Panther compatibility should be released. However I have a bad feeling that Newtek will force users to upgrade to 8 for Panther compatibility.

Craiglet
12-08-2003, 07:36 AM
I too have not moved to Panther for the sole reason of LW's compatibility issue. And I am planning to buy a new G5 within the next couple of months so that will probably force me to move to Panther...

I can see all sides of this argument -- its a toughie... but really the bottom line is that NewTek's resources are not my concern. I paid good money for LightWave, and their current software needs to work on the current OS. Period.

If one person did the whole Mac port originally, this implies that cooking up a Panther patch shouldn't be a completely insurmountable task.

If no Panther patch is coming soon, then definitely a more 'u$er-friendly' upgrade path to LW8 for us Applers would help smooth over this rough edge. After all, it has been less than a year since i plunked down my hard-earned duckets for LW7.5...

thekeeper
12-08-2003, 08:52 AM
there is nothing in newteks past history that would indicate they will produce a patch for 7.5/panther.
6.5 was a nightmare of non functioning
software which was never fixed.
we got the same smooze then...gee wizz we are workiing so hard on 7 we just dont know, and then 6.5 was promptly dumped in the dust bin, and if you wanted fixes, you anted up 500smackers for 7(which was also full of stuff that did not work), no apologies for the stuff we sold you that was supposed to work but did not. take it or leave it.
iMO this is what is coming again,if this was not the case, you would get a definate answer, yes we will fix it.
but that is not what you get here, we get
the same ol' gee whiz we are just so busy,and maybe we will....yeah right.
so you guys jus keep hangin on, i am certain the patch for 7.5 will be delivered...probably by flying pigs

:p :p

mlinde
12-08-2003, 09:20 AM
keeper, I find your POV interesting. I recall there being a decent working version of 6.5 (not great, by any means, but working) in OS 9. Most of the issues with 6.5 were OS X specific, like a lack of plugins and features, which didn't surprise me because 6.5 was out long before OS X, and the "free upgrade" from NT was the ONLY "free upgrade" to OS X I found of any commercial software.

Regardless, you talk about the issues with 6.5 but ignore completely that the team working on Lightwave is new -- none of them were among the voices of NT when 6.5/7.0 were being developed. With such a significant change, it's not impossible that changes can be widespread, like resolution of big bugs.

dfc
12-08-2003, 10:57 AM
Yes, tough call on this one.

The most unfortunate by product of all this is, that with a major paid point O release coming out, all of these events are turning what should be a time of buzz and excitement into seemingly commonly held view, that LW 8 is just a "paid" upgrade to fix bugs....when nothing could be further from the truth I would think.

For that reason ALONE, I would think Newtek should fix 7.5 asap.

The other thing to think about is the people who are busy right now (I don't happen to know any,....but) using LW in production, aren't going to jump on either of these things right away (Panther, OR LW8). That means, the big opportunity here for initial sales is going to be with the people who have less production needs with LW, and can take a few more risks (ie, the people upgrading to Panther, which as you can see, there are quite a few people who might fall into that category). And the whole LW Upgrade "bungle" offer, designed to attract those users, has only managed to upset the very target of the initial LW8 release buyers on the mac side.

Whew. Yes, anything else that could go wrong with this?

For me, just to give you an idea, I've used LW fairly heavily working in large corporate graphics firms..for many years..up and to I started my own small/home business to provide such services as outsource. Out of the probably 1k people I crossed paths with over the years in that area of NYC, most of them are either dead from WTC...or...no longer have a job or a business left. That's my entire address book folks. My clients, have just slowly dwindled to nothing as budget cuts, etc..have taken their toll. For the last year I was down to just providing basic low cost cookie cutter, fast turn around, odd jobs. 3 months ago, the work just stopped.

I've had to run older OS and versions of apps...frozen for quite a while..in order to keep my production levels running smoothly. But as it dwindled, I was thinking more and more of taking more chances and trying some new stuff. So, sitting here with nothing but time on my hands, no work....I just backed up all my files , archived them off to tape...and wiped every drive on my system and installed Panther which I'm typing from right now. It' sthe first time in years I could do such a thing and you know what? It feels pretty darn good :)

LW, is in a box in my bookcase...and I'm starting from scratch, right here, rebuilding my life, my business, everything, from scratch. And, trying to rekindle some of that inspiration, that got lost thru years of staying up late, not because you were inspired, but because it was a job.

And finally, to revisit some of the reasons I got started in this whole thing in the beginning...because I loved it.

For me, I've got all the time in the world to wait right now. . But, it would be a shame to have the LW8 release go down as a bickering fest of disgruntled users_some who totally miss the new 8.0 and just see it as a paid upgrade to fix incompatibliies...and others who feel put off by the bungle mess, and yet still others in heavy production who see the combo of a point zero OS release combined with a point zero major app release as something to maybe put on the to do list for sometime later after a few more patches.

Personally, I feel the most important thing, and something that "is" fixable now would be to fix the whole bungle mess. That's just adding to and feeding the other issue of the Panther incompatiblity..AND setting up a lot of ill wind for the 8.0 release.

Next would be, I think, they should fix 7.5 ASAP. NOt because of any of the reasons given here. But, because for whatever the reasons...customers are starting to view 8.0 as a paid upgrade to fix incompatiblities instead of creating new excitment and buzz over their first big point release in a long time (a paid one at that). I personally feel, they shoudl do this, and if it takes a little more time for 8.0 at that point? no problem, it will just give more time for this all to die down, and for positive energy and excitment to build around the 8.0 coming up...instead of griping and bickering and resentment for a release party.

Thats my take anyway.

riki
12-09-2003, 08:36 AM
Hi designvs I think you over-stepped the mark that time. Calling for ppl to pirate LW won't get you much sympathy around these parts.

thekeeper
12-09-2003, 12:00 PM
mlinde,
obviously, your recollections of LW 6/6.5. under 9 were vastly different than mine.
texture dropping, ...the list goes on and on, not to mention a level of unstability that i personally have never before witnessed in 15 years of working with software of any kind.
ok so 6.5 for osx was free... and incomplete. then came 7( paid)still incomplete and quite buggy(thank god for 7.5) and then lets not forget the lovely and ever popular 7.5b(who needs to surface anyway?).
you are quick to defend NT , all apples fault, they(apple) changed something...
says alot to me about the connection between NT and apple?
to quote our friend eblu:

ummm... unless Netwek is a paying member of the Apple dev connection (adc) they never got panther until we did. And I'm not gonna speculate whether or not I think they are paying members, I think it might depress me. Seriously, based on the knee-jerk bug-reaction history between Newtek and Apple, there has obviously been NO communication about or testing of the changes to the os that may affect LW, before the release of new Operating systems.
I would frankly be surprised if panther was even considered during the development of lw 8
sorry eblu didnt mean to drag you into this, but you make a very serious point.

if i have a company that makes custom wheels for ford trucks, then that makes me responsible for making sure the holes are in the right place, perhaps a silly analogy, but still the same. its called responsibility to the customer.
regardless of how you might twist this
if newtek is going to sell mac software,
this comes with the responsibility of keeping up with apple's changes even if they come at the rate of one a day.
part of the deal.if you cannot meet those obligations for any reason, then you need to quit advertising that you do?
Newtek makes and sells software to make their living.
i buy and use software to make my living.
when the software that i buy places me at a disadvantage, because of an apparent unwillingness,(or inability) to insure the "holes are in the right place" that is a bad thing, for me(jeez i dont need anymore disadvantages in this day and age)and ultimately for newtek as well.
good luck with 8.

mlinde
12-09-2003, 03:58 PM
I'm not trying to place blame one place or another. If I've done that, I did it unintentionally. Whether NT has a paid developer membership or not they have been speaking loudly about their Mac support lately.

My issue is that everyone here is quick to complain about this issue, but only that it's Newtek's fault that it doesn't work. Sure it's Newtek's job to fix it, but it's not their fault it occurred.

As far as knee jerk bug fixes, Newtek's not alone in that one. Who's got Virtual PC on their G5? You think a company as large as M$ didn't have a G5 to test on, but it will be almost a year from G5 to Virtual PC G5, IF the predictions are accurate.

Activator
12-10-2003, 01:33 PM
And then Newtek wonders "Why is everyone using Maya...?"

Not a perfect product by any means, but if it's broke, it gets fixed. Fast.

That's the difference between a product that's used in thousands projects in thousands of studios every day, and one that's used on MAJOR projects in MAJOR studios every day. Studios that don't take "soon" for an answer...

I'm a smaller studio but I work on some major projects (both "Matrix" sequels this year). I love LW and prefer it over Maya, but I'm really SICK of the Mac being a 2nd class citizen to Newtek.

I'm on the edge of switching. If newtek gets enough people threatening, or actually doing it, maybe they'll get the message.

Scott Gammans
12-10-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by mlinde
Whether NT has a paid developer membership or not they have been speaking loudly about their Mac support lately.Actions speak louder than words.

NewTek's inability/unwillingness to reach (and announce) a decision regarding Panther/7.5c speaks volumes.

dfc
12-10-2003, 03:57 PM
Just wanted to say these few days later of being in panther only, Panther ROCKS!!

Expose, at first, seemed like some gimmick..until you start using it! Man, what a time saver that is!! At one point, I had so many windows open, different apps, and having to constantly go back and forth between directories, etc..Anybody who's used OSX knows about the sort of watery, sluggish scrolling, window movement, etc. So,heres the deal, one of the expose keys will hide everything off screen instantly...swoop. Everything goes right or left or up..exposing the desktop immediately. When you hit the key again, it comes back instantly. The other key I used..was the one for arranging all openwindow into a grid on your desktop..instantly. You then mouse over them and label description will come up...with it's file name, window name. You just click the one you want in front....wham...they all come back up with the one you have chosen on top and it's app active. It's faster than mousing around to the dock...and visually quicker.
For instance, using the dock, you have to go to the top left of every window and hit the minize button...then shift the few remaining windows around and drag the one you want over. With expose, 2 seconds...hit the key...bam, click the window you want..bam. Need another/different window? Hit the key again, bam, click, bam. Need to get something off the desktop? Hit the other function key for expose..swish..all the windows swoosh off screen, do what you need to, hit the key again, swoosh..you are right back where you left off.

So, you don't have to scroll, drag windows around near as much...and it's faster exponentially. A huge productivity gain when working with lots of open windows or directories.

If you've got large directories that are a ***** to scroll..etc, you can leave huge windows open that show most of what you need...or seperate finder windows for the directories you areworking in...run your apps, when needed, just use expose to zap between window sets. Takes a couple of seconds. No dragging, scrolling, etc.

Also, just fyi, for those concerned about the function key assignments in expose, you can pick your own in the expose control panel. If you have an app that needs one of the keys it's default is assigned to (like LW, f8,9,10), you can just assign exposes functions to other keys.

Safari just rocks...what can I say. I'm not sure, cause I never used this before now, if this was in Jag, but in Safari, you can ftp a server, and once logged in, it will open a finder window with the contents as a read only network drive on yoru desktop. You can drag copy anything you need. (but can't write to the server_you still need an FTP utility for write access)
That may not be a new feature in panther/safari, but something I didn't know about, Very , very cool for retrieving files off ftp very quickly. When you are done, just control click the network drive icon..and unmount it.

Anyway, I'm really enjoying panther. So far, stable as a rock. My machine finally sleeps properly and wakes up properly. Apps don't take forever to open. I'm very happy so far. I think everyone is going to be happy with it, once they are able to move to it/apps updated for it..etc.

unc1e meat
12-11-2003, 08:52 AM
First off, I used to be a Newtek faithful and when people asked what is a good 3D app that I use, I would tell them Lightwave. However with the problems that Newtek has for Mac users, I'm no longer suggesting Lightwave to others as a good 3D app.

Oh and all you people defending Newtek saying the current crop of problems isn't their fault.....wake up and face reality. It is their fault, it is their problem, and they had better get going on solving them.

You know, one of the best forms of advertising is word of mouth.....and in this Newtek should be afraid because I think they've lost a lot of positive advertising by not fixing their errors and not even acknowledging them. There are a LOT of people that are PO'ed at Newtek right now. I think Newtek was already fighting a losing battle because Maya is the current king and doesn't look like that app will be losing that status anytime soon. Of course I'm not basing this on personal experience because I haven't used Maya too much, just that almost all the big companies use it over Lightwave. Also when you look at job listings, most people want Maya people not Lightwave. Newtek has pretty much screwed themselves over I'm afraid. I don't want to see them doing this because other than the current problems, I like Lighwave and would like to see it around for years to come.

toby
12-11-2003, 10:09 PM
"Oh and all you people defending Newtek saying the current crop of problems isn't their fault.....wake up and face reality. It is their fault, it is their problem, and they had better get going on solving them."

OK, you've made an accusation, what is the Basis?

I'm dying to know what you guys, who think that Newtek can optimize software for operating systems that don't yet exist, base this on.

mswanson
12-11-2003, 11:08 PM
First, I love LW, big time. I quit 3d years ago because of frustrations with Strata. Newtek brought me back, please keep this in mind as you read this.

I work for a software company that has over a dozen software products that we have hand crafted from scratch for over 12 years. They run on on Mac 7.1-Panther / Win95-XP. We employ over 50 C++ engineers and with sales, marketing, etc. have over 1000 total employees. 11 years ago I was the only programmer and we had only 20 total employees and our flagship app only ran on the Apple II, so I've seen change and my share of software issues. I preface this message with this info to hopefully convince a few of you that I truly understand the current LW/Panther issue and I've been where NewTek is today. I might even be there again someday, although I hope not.

My company is not as influential with Microsoft and Apple as you might think, trust me, we have very little pull. Mostly because we are not a household name, you have not heard of my company (kinda like BASF, we quietly kick out tons of product that ends up being used without being known). Also because we don't desire special treatment, and we generally stick to our knitting. So as a result when we do ask for things, we generally have good results (too many developers become like chicken little, always screaming about every little thing). And then there is the problem that the nearest ocean is like over 1,000 miles away, so we don't rub elbows with the "big boys" much.

This is relevant because we have grown and been successful without a single floppy disk or CD sold through a retail store or distributors. How you ask? The old fashioned way, one customer at a time, who tells two friends, who tells two friends. This means we have a special relationship and respect for our customers. We have grown because of the power of good old fashioned customer service, beyond the customer's expectations. We take over 5,000 phone calls a day, and every single one is answered by a live human being. That ain't free, but it is worth every penny.

We deal with incompatibilities every day. We spend a lot of time fixing issues that arise, many of them due to OS upgrades. Yes, Panther broke us too. Some was our fault, some was Apple's. We fixed ours and Apple fixed theirs. All was right before Panther went on sale.

But I will say Apple can't fix what they don't know about. We had to test like mad every time they seeded us with another Panther rev (and it was often). We raced the clock because we knew that whatever we found had a limited period to be tracked down, reported, and fixed before Apple went Golden Master. And they won't do a dot release just because you find things right after they ship. It is called cooperation. Software today is nasty complex, developers and OS vendors must work together, constantly. It is the customers who hurts if they do not.

I know it is hard, we would rather have everyone on the next gen stuff that has more and better features, who wouldn't? But it is a responsibility to paying customers. Without them you are unemployed. Nothing scares my company more than angry customers. Even when one has a problem, it is on our radar, and literally millions of people using our products daily. This is all part of the deal, it is the business, and if you can't cut it, you lose. If it was easy, we'd all own successful software companies.

Newtek, you need to do some damage control ASAP. You have big time loyal customers, don't screw it up. Fix it quickly now and all will be forgiven (over time). Just look at the situation... Your current, shipping application crashes regularly on Apple's current shipping OS. Period, end of story. At this point it doesn't matter why, who's fault or what the next (for fee) rev does. They key here is that it is the current app that is broke, nobody expects several back revs to work, just the most recent one.

Just reading the tea leaves, my bet is that LW8 will not ship in this qtr, so the revenue window may be closed. Take a breath, regroup, fix 7.5c. Then take your time making 8 rock solid, even if it takes months. If 8 is buggy (or the Mac version is crippled) this current anger wave will be increased an order of magnitude. If all hopes are on making the agry mob subside with 8, then 8 will be rushed out too soon. Do not make this worse than it is.

I know software, I've got the scars to prove it. I've managed several multi million line codebases, some products had over six dot 0 revs, all cross platform code. I know it is hard, but it is not impossible. Just do it, and those upgrades to 8 will come much more quickly and all of us will soon be singing praises once again.

PS Thanks to all you posters, you keep the community alive. I'm one of those who reads way more than I post. My 2004 resolution is to "get more involved" :)

Done, I'll get off my soapbox now...

Darth Mole
12-12-2003, 07:05 AM
I do find it humorous that when specifically questioned on the release date of LW 8 (3D World magazine), NewTek said an emphatic 'yes' to the question 'would it be released this year?'.

Given that it now looks like an emphatic 'no', then I agree with mswanson: fix 7.5 ASAP, and then spend time on 8.

Let's face it, anyone who wants the new features in 8 will buy it. The timing sucks, but we've been here before - every single release date for LW in fact.

I upgraded to Panther because I'm running a new G5 and wanted some of the new features and a speed hike. I also didn't think it would break LW quite so badly (no other apps were affected). I have installed every app and plug-in on this new machine and to step back to Jaguar is just too much of a pain in the rear. So, for the time being, LW is just sitting on my hard drive...

So: do I wait for 8 or wait for 7.5d? Over to you NewTek...

unc1e meat
12-12-2003, 07:33 AM
Toby, I don't think I need to say more after mswanson just eloquently stated the facts.

Scott Gammans
12-12-2003, 07:42 AM
Excellent post, mswanson. Unfortuantely, I doubt anyone in San Antonio heard you. :(

toby
12-12-2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by unc1e meat
Toby, I don't think I need to say more after mswanson just eloquently stated the facts.

His post is not fact, it's opinion. An educated one, but just look at Microsoft - they don't run their business like he does - bugs and crashes up the waazoo but they're even more successful.

In any case, he is not blaming Newtek for the problem. You are, and I'd still like to know what you base that on.

unc1e meat
12-12-2003, 08:44 AM
Newtek had plenty of time to make revisions to lightwave with the developer revisions of Panther. Also, it's been quite a while and they still haven't put any type of warnings on their site telling their customers that their product doesn't work with the current OS.

Scott Gammans
12-12-2003, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by unc1e meat
Newtek had plenty of time to make revisions to lightwave with the developer revisions of Panther. Also, it's been quite a while and they still haven't put any type of warnings on their site telling their customers that their product doesn't work with the current OS. And they still haven't announced their plans to fix this problem, despite repeated, vociferous complaints from their customer base.

Chuck
12-12-2003, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by unc1e meat
Newtek had plenty of time to make revisions to lightwave with the developer revisions of Panther. Also, it's been quite a while and they still haven't put any type of warnings on their site telling their customers that their product doesn't work with the current OS.


The information has been posted in the Technical Support FAQ since October 29th:

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13077

Chuck
12-12-2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Scott Gammans
Excellent post, mswanson. Unfortuantely, I doubt anyone in San Antonio heard you. :(

We most certainly hear and consider everything that our customers have to say on our forums, and we appreciate MSwanson's taking the time to express his concerns on the matter, as we appreciate any of our customers to take the time to let us know their views on our products, actions or policies.

unc1e meat
12-12-2003, 09:08 AM
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/virtualpc/using.aspx?pid=usingvirtualpc

"Virtual_PC for Mac and the Power Mac G5


We know Mac users are excited to take advantage of the speed of the new Power Mac G5 processor to run Virtual PC for Mac and PC programs. Microsoft is currently working on the next version of Virtual PC for Mac, which will run on the G5. Watch the Mactopia newsletter for updates."


Notice how up front they state the facts. They don't bury the information in a discussion forum. It's in plain sight on one of the main site pages about their product. Take note Newtek.

Chuck
12-12-2003, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Scott Gammans
And they still haven't announced their plans to fix this problem, despite repeated, vociferous complaints from their customer base.

We have repeatedly informed users that the problem is already addressed in the code for LightWave 3D 8.0, but that management and development have not made a determination of what can be done and when with regard to 7.5c, but that we are working on the issues and reviewing the options with regards to doing a further maintenance update to 7.5, and that we will announce on the matter as soon as we can reasonably make a determination.

unc1e meat
12-12-2003, 09:13 AM
It's been over a month Chuck! You should have "reasonably made a determination" by now! The company you work for needs to get their act together!

Chuck
12-12-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by unc1e meat
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/virtualpc/using.aspx?pid=usingvirtualpc

"Virtual_PC for Mac and the Power Mac G5


We know Mac users are excited to take advantage of the speed of the new Power Mac G5 processor to run Virtual PC for Mac and PC programs. Microsoft is currently working on the next version of Virtual PC for Mac, which will run on the G5. Watch the Mactopia newsletter for updates."


Notice how up front they state the facts. They don't bury the information in a discussion forum. It's in plain sight on one of the main site pages about their product. Take note Newtek.

Thank you for the suggestion that we add the compatibility note to our product pages. That's certainly reasonable, and I will forward the suggestion to management and the web team.

toby
12-13-2003, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by unc1e meat
Newtek had plenty of time to make revisions to lightwave with the developer revisions of Panther.

OK so it's your contention that Newtek caused the problem by not dropping development of [8] to beta-test 7.5c on a constantly changing version of a brand new OS?

Or do you think that they're standing around the water-cooler all day -

unc1e meat
12-13-2003, 09:47 AM
Newtek has obviously screwed up since of all the apps that use with 10.3 work fine except for Lightwave. (Actually there was a small plugin for a mail app that I use that was broken with 10.3 but they informed their users of this rather than just staying quiet about it) Why is it that all the other software companies could have software that works with 10.3? Surely they must have been testing their software to make sure it works with 10.3. Apple doesn't go to all the software companies and ask each of them if their software works ok on their OS before it's released, that is the software company's responsibility. A responsibility that Newtek has failed miserably.

unc1e meat
12-13-2003, 10:04 AM
For example Toby, here is that mail plugin I was telling you about: http://sourceforge.net/projects/httpmail-plugin

When it was discovered that it was broken under Panther, it was specified as such on the download page right away. Also it didn't take him very long to release an update that fixes compatibility with Panther. KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS IS FREE AND THE DEVELOPER WAS STILL RESPONSIBLE ENOUGH TO INFORM USERS OF INCOMPATIBILITIES AND THEN EVEN RELEASED AN UPDATE IN A TIMELY MANNER. What a concept!

Of course I'm not suggesting that this simple plugin's complexity is anywhere near that of a massive application such as Lightwave.

Also I've heard repeatedly how Newtek claims that it has such a small force of developers (__sad violin music playing in the background__). THAT IS NOT OUR PROBLEM!!! We pay Newtek a large amount of money for their application so it's their resonsiblity to get their software working any way possible. NO EXCUSES ACCEPTED!

toby
12-13-2003, 01:09 PM
I'm not talking about excuses - can your boss double your workload and then say "No Excuses"?

Don't you think that it may be crunch-time at NT with a major new release coming out?

I definitely think that NT should fix this problem, but blaming them for a change that Apple made is only going to discourage them from supporting the Mac platform.

And I must say that really disagree with the idea that you paid them some money, therefore you deserve absolute perfection, or that you deserve every feature that any other app may have. LW is the cheapest high-end 3D app, with major advantages over more expensive apps, in my opinion we're already getting more than we paid for.

unc1e meat
12-13-2003, 04:20 PM
"Don't you think that it may be crunch-time at NT with a major new release coming out?"

Newtek should have thought about that when they first found out that a new OS was going to be released. It's all about keeping current software up to date. If they had released Lightwave 8 before or on the same day as Panther then we wouldn't be here arguing and complaining. But here we are, well over a month after an updated version of Lightwave should have been released (whether it's 7.5d or 8). However, since Lightwave 7.5c is their current software, Newtek has the responsibility of making sure they release an update to it to make run on the current OS

"I definitely think that NT should fix this problem, but blaming them for a change that Apple made is only going to discourage them from supporting the Mac platform. And I must say that really disagree with the idea that you paid them some money, therefore you deserve absolute perfection, or that you deserve every feature that any other app may have. LW is the cheapest high-end 3D app, with major advantages over more expensive apps, in my opinion we're already getting more than we paid for. "

I still stand by my saying that Newtek is to blame for not releasing an updated version of their software. It is their responsibility. A few days after Panther came out and there was no word from Newtek about the problems and any word on the updated release, I was thinking "it's alright, I'm sure they'll get something out to us soon". One week after, I was patient and thought they will release something any day now. Two weeks after, I was getting annoyed with Newtek. Three weeks later, I was downright pissed off. Four weeks later, I lost any sympathy towards Newtek. And now, I'm determined that if Newtek does not release 7.5d, I will no longer be giving any of my money to Newtek. Of course I'll still keep my 7.5c and use it as much as possible but I will never spend my or my employer's money on another version of Lighwave. I'm annoyed enough where I'm willing to face the learning curve of switching apps. Maybe in the long run that's actually best since I'll then be using an industry standard software rather than some half-baked effort by some minor company.

If Newtek can't properly support their Mac version of Lightwave then maybe it's best that they don't support it at all by not making lightwave for Mac. They are false advertising when they say their software works on Mac because it doesn't fully. A lot of people feel cheated by Newtek because they spend a lot of money on Lightwave and they try to run it on their mac and find that they have a partially working software. This is not some $20 shareware we are talking of, this is nearly $1500 of our money! It is not demanding perfection to ask for a working graph editor. The graph editor is a crucial part of Lightwave and it's Newtek's responsibility to make sure the majority of their software works.

toby
12-13-2003, 05:44 PM
"Don't you think that it may be crunch-time at NT with a major new release coming out?"

Newtek should have thought about that when they first found out that a new OS was going to be released.

They were already hip-deep in [8]. They can't schedule weeks off just in case something breaks on so few machines.

"Here we are, well over a month after an updated version of Lightwave should have been released (whether it's 7.5d or 8)."

Besides the fact that you don't know when it 'should' be finished, besides the fact that it's not uncommon for schedules to be missed (which still hasn't happened btw), might'nt that indicate that they have very little time to take on new problems?

"I still stand by my saying that Newtek is to blame for not releasing an updated version of their software."

Well this is the crux of the argument, we're just going to have to disagree. To blame someone for a problem because they don't repair it 'soon enough' (which is arbitrary) doesn't make sense to me, and is hasty at best.

"I disagree with the idea that you paid them some money, therefore you deserve absolute perfection, or that you deserve every feature that any other app may have."

That comment was directed at everyone who complains about LW based on how much it costs. People make that complaint no matter how cheap things are, and it's really out of place when you're using the least expensive high-end app out there. ALL software has bugs, including the ones that cost $10,000.

MStrickland
12-14-2003, 02:13 AM
Absolutely, no doubt, none at all.

I haven't been able to ue Lightwave AT ALL since upgrading to Panther. At this point I'm forced to upgrade to 8 just to use the product I've been supporting since 5.0. This is not right, not fair, not supportive of the custome base, and should be corrected immediately. Why hasn't it been done already??!?

Frankly, I'm surprised Apple seems to have caught Newtek with their pants down...

Not good, give us the patch, asap.

Michael