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Chernoby
07-29-2015, 06:39 PM
Blender is 100% open-source. You can take the code and you can even sell it to people (maybe if they didnt realize its free).

Why dont LW devs just mine some of the great features from it like volumetric materials, mesh edit tools, sculpt mode, etc?

I think its legal to do... I could be wrong.

RebelHill
07-29-2015, 06:49 PM
Lol... you're wrong.

jeric_synergy
07-29-2015, 06:55 PM
I'm pretty sure that the Open Source license prohibits including chunks of Blender in a FOR PROFIT product. In fact, I'd bet a LOT of money on that.

Chernoby
07-29-2015, 06:56 PM
Lol... you're wrong.

Ok. Scratch that highly illegal suggestion.

3D Kiwi
07-29-2015, 07:23 PM
I might be wrong but I thought you can add it to a commercial app but then you have to make the code associated with that feature opensource. So newtek would have to release some of its code which I don't think they would want to do. But i may be completely wrong.
Just filling in time while i wait for a render :-)

Surrealist.
07-29-2015, 07:41 PM
The legality of it, is not the issue. You can sell Blender commercially, pretty much do what you want with it. As long as you abide by the license.

http://download.blender.org/release/GPL-license.txt


For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether
gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that
you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the
source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their
rights.

Cycles is also openly available under Apache 2.0

http://opensource.org/licenses/Apache-2.0


I am not a programer. But I imagine it would be a nightmare to add parts of Blender to LightWave if it is even possible. And then as mentioned, to offer that code open source... lol ...Not going to happen.

m.d.
07-29-2015, 09:25 PM
I know the actual computer vision processing behind Mocha planar tracker is opensource.....
http://gandalf-library.sourceforge.net/
Basically that with the GUI and file in/out (and quite a bit of other stuff) added by imagineer.

And within fusion there is some openCV (open computer vision) libraries as well....

Not sure how far that can extend, but I am pretty sure the algorithms and libraries in blender could be repurposed commercially to some extent.

Like Surrealist said, may be more problems than it is worth....but I don't think it is completely unrealistic.

I mean, Bullet had to be bolted onto lightwave....took 2 iterations to get constraints, so likely wasn't easy

libneon
07-29-2015, 09:47 PM
The Allegorithmic guys explained this as why Substance doesn't have Blender integration:


"It does not matter if the plugin is bundled or not. What the license forbids is linking a binary compiled from GPL code (here, Blender) with a binary compiled from closed-source code (here, the Substance engine dynamic library) or code released with an incompatible license. This means that it is not legally possible to release a closed source plugin in the form of a compiled dynamic library (.dll, .dylib, .so, depending on your system) for Blender."

https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php?topic=405.0

Surrealist.
07-29-2015, 09:48 PM
Again I am not a programer. But aren't libraries like Bullet, Open Subdiv etc. designed to be modular and used in applications as libraries with specific uses?

Whereas a program like Blender probably has a lot of inter-dependencies. And look at the situation LW is in. Doesn't it have certain inter-dependencies? If that were not the case they would have had success simply adding a modeling module to Layout. Or for that matter weight painting and other features.

Seems like unless a program is designed to be modular - Houdini Engine, Fabric... talking out of my arse a bit... but seems like it would be hell just trying to get something to work as a patched-in feature. And what if there are bugs in the Blender code? I mean it could go on and on.

Surrealist.
07-29-2015, 09:56 PM
The Allegorithmic guys explained this as why Substance doesn't have Blender integration:
https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php?topic=405.0

Yeah sounds like the same legal issue. Lots of commercial Blender addons that do not offer the source code. But I wonder if that is because with an addon and they can get away with not merging with the source code.

If the Alegrorythmic guys could do it as an add on it would work - in theory I suppose.

https://cgcookiemarkets.com/blender/

libneon
07-30-2015, 01:47 AM
Yeah sounds like the same legal issue. Lots of commercial Blender addons that do not offer the source code. But I wonder if that is because with an addon and they can get away with not merging with the source code.

If the Alegrorythmic guys could do it as an add on it would work - in theory I suppose.

https://cgcookiemarkets.com/blender/

All the addons I see on that site do say GPL. https://cgcookiemarkets.com/blender/licenses/gpl-license/

creacon
07-30-2015, 03:39 AM
I think this is an interesting topic.

The thing is that everybody sees opensource as a good thing, while in reality it is a giant mess. I am using different components from different libraries, all with a different licensing scheme, and instead of developing I have to become a lawyer to understand it all.

Because of certain API's I had to create a Github account. This is the biggest proof that Opensource is a mess, people keep forking, don't bring anything new and in some cases have no idea of what they are doing. I've seen Linux nerds trying to push removal of VStudio support to the master repo.
Just because they don't use it and think it's a lot cooler to use cmake or any other mechanism.

I've even taken a look at a blender add-on. I only used it to see how it was done because the code was unusable, so what position are you in at that stage? Did you break a license agreement or not, do you feel like loosing 2 hours figuring it all out? Do you want to pay a lawyer huge amounts of money to find it out for you?

As far as I am concerned, if you write code and want to share it, put it on the internet and let the users decide how they want to use it (for free).

If you don't want people to use your code/knowledge, don't put it on the internet.

creacon

Surrealist.
07-30-2015, 08:07 AM
All the addons I see on that site do say GPL. https://cgcookiemarkets.com/blender/licenses/gpl-license/

Oh yeah. I figured as much. But they do not offer the source code as far as I understand. But I could be wrong on that. I mean I have used a lot of addons for Blender and I never saw a link to source code. Meaning it is not the same as modifying Blender itself. If you took Blender and added these features to the source code, you'd have to compile and redistribute Blender as a product with your features. And I think that is what the Alegrorithmic guys are talking about. And there is nothing stopping them from doing that legally and charging for it. The difference I imagine is then they'd have to offer all of the source code which would include their mods. If that license is used at Blender Market, then technically people could go around making copies and giving it to each other. And sales would drop. But clearly people are following a tacit honor system. And further I am fairly sure the guys making these plugins are not offering up the code. But I could be wrong.

I honestly think it is more of a case of the Alegrorithmic guys not fully understanding the options of creating something like this for Blender.

I am not wholly convinced that they are restricted from offering a closed source addon for Blender.

A redistributed copy, yes. They could not do that. But if it is possible to make an addon, I am fairly certain it would be legal to have the addon itself be closed source as it is not a part of Blender. And does not involve recompiling and reselling Blender. And I am almost certain it is not required that it be the same license as the Blender Market is using.

Best example off the top of my head would be Octane:

http://home.otoy.com/render/octane-render/purchase/

I imagine the licenses used at Blender Market are self-imposed.

ConjureBunny
07-30-2015, 08:23 AM
The biggest problem with using even an algorithm from an open source project like blender is finding out down the line, after you've implemented something, that you didn't read all of the licenses used for it.

And suddenly, you're under a legal obligation to publish the full source to your product. All it takes is for one user to recognize a bug or an artifact that is present in an open source product, and you're in deep crap. At the very least, it looks bad. You couldn't figure out this problem yourself and you had to steal it from open source blender... so why are people paying for your product if it's just a wrapper for something free?

It's a huge and very real problem a lot of companies would rather not mess with. It's better to just hire smart people and build things in-house. If *they* happen to steal something from blender and call it their own, at least you have some plausible deniability :D

-Chilton

creacon
07-30-2015, 09:30 AM
Let's take an example of OpenVDB, it refers to the Mozilla license that says that if you distribute the program in executable form you must provide the source too.

But OpenVDB is a lib, so there is no executable form. So you would think that you're free to do what you want with it, making it a part of an executable program or part of a bigger lib that you wrote.
So if this would go to court you'd have a defense. But this description still gives them enough munition to get you to court in the first place. And at that point it would be you and your lawyer against Dreamworks animation.
I am not saying that they would do this but still it is a risk that you need to take care of before releasing your software, at the very least get a mail from them stating that you have the right to use it and keep your work closed source.

creacon

Surrealist.
07-30-2015, 09:33 AM
It's a huge and very real problem a lot of companies would rather not mess with. It's better to just hire smart people and build things in-house.

Sometimes re-inventing the wheel is not the best way. Bullet, OpenSubdiv, Alembic, other dynamics libraries and so on.

And we are talking about putting an open source into a closed source. That will not work.

But interchange plugins are still an option. Nothing stopping someone from creating a commercial "Go Blender" plugin for LightWave. lol well not sure if that is the best title... but...

You can already import .lwo into Blender and then there are the interchange formats, including .mdd. But a specific plugin that attempted to handle interchange issues could be viable and definitely legal.

Come to think of it, probably not that bad of an idea. But likely better as a 3P product.

creacon
07-30-2015, 09:46 AM
But what about Bullet in LW and Modo? That's opensource in closedsource.



And we are talking about putting an open source into a closed source. That will not work.

ConjureBunny
07-30-2015, 10:57 AM
Come to think of it, probably not that bad of an idea. But likely better as a 3P product.

Yeah I've thought about this a number of times. Might not be a bad idea at all :)

-Chilton

Surrealist.
07-30-2015, 11:01 AM
But what about Bullet in LW and Modo? That's opensource in closedsource.

Yeah the difference I think is in the license for Bullet. I have not read it. But open source does not mean it uses the same license. There are several and of course any license can be modified. But per the Blender license for example if you extracted that code, you'd have to offer it free (not necessarily not charging for it) as open source. And if it was integrated into a closed source app that would not be allowed as you'd be baring people from the open code.

- - - Updated - - -


Yeah I've thought about this a number of times. Might not be a bad idea at all :)

-Chilton

Indeed. :)

vonpietro
07-30-2015, 04:09 PM
i think blender is here to stay and getting better and better every time i look at it
while lightwave - well

I think better integration with blender is 100% the best way to go -
make friends with blender -
make importing and exporting transparent

people will use both - and lightwave will stay ALIVE

alot of websites dont even list lightwave as an option for 3d
but blender is listed

so what i'd like to see is
blender to lw and lw to blender - support directly from newtek

as it is now - gotta use fbx which works.

but it would be nice if lightwave could read all the surfacing data in blender
and like he said - it's open source - it should not be too hard to make some sort of blender surfacing in lw

=)

JCG
07-30-2015, 05:29 PM
Yeah the difference I think is in the license for Bullet. I have not read it. But open source does not mean it uses the same license. There are several and of course any license can be modified.

Blender uses GNU (at least, most of it does). Bullet uses zlib. The Zlib license basically says that you can do whatever you want with the code as long as you give credit. GNU says that any derivative work is also covered by the GNU license. So you must be willing to provide the source code for all derivative works of GNU stuff.

spherical
07-31-2015, 12:15 AM
so what i'd like to see is blender to lw and lw to blender - support directly from newtek

A lot of users use Blender as a plugin and a GoB function would be very useful. A long time ago, I said that there needs to be something similar, but going to the Dark Side [Modo]. A lot of Lightwave users use Modo as a plugin for tasks that it does better. A lot of Modo users use LightWave as a plugin for the same reason. LW3DG needs to take the High Road and develop GoM. Having that increases market share, as it makes things easier on many levels. Not only that, it puts a stamp on the company that is out front.

magiclight
07-31-2015, 12:51 AM
Blender uses GNU (at least, most of it does). Bullet uses zlib. The Zlib license basically says that you can do whatever you want with the code as long as you give credit. GNU says that any derivative work is also covered by the GNU license. So you must be willing to provide the source code for all derivative works of GNU stuff.

He mean GPL, the license and not GNU

Surrealist.
07-31-2015, 09:54 AM
I disagree that it will ever be LW3D Group that takes the charge and creates a Go to... anything. Zbrush is one thing.

I don't see that it is in their best interest. And I am fairly positive they do not see that either.

This is more than likely the domain of a third party developer.

vonpietro
07-31-2015, 09:59 AM
how can it not be in their best interest-
something that extends lw's usefulness ergo lifespan -
the problem is lightwave's dwindling in the face of all the other 3d programs.

perhaps its because newtek doesn't market lightwave very well

but you say lightwave and people go huh

you say blender and people go oh ya.

3dartist magazine barely has any articles for lightwave anymore- but tons on blender

They have to get the word out and sell lightwave more aggressively.
but they don't even seem to be keen on doing that.

blender folk are seeing 3rd powers plugins and drooling - so they are becoming aware of lightwave
this is absolutely something lightwave wants to take advantage of!!

jeric_synergy
07-31-2015, 01:01 PM
blender folk are seeing 3rd powers plugins and drooling - so they are becoming aware of lightwave
this is absolutely something lightwave wants to take advantage of!!
Yeah, but blender users are like Amiga users: rare and CHEAP. Most would be hardpressed to buy 3rd Powers' product, let alone LW itself.

dballesg
07-31-2015, 01:30 PM
I think this is an interesting topic.

The thing is that everybody sees opensource as a good thing, while in reality it is a giant mess. I am using different components from different libraries, all with a different licensing scheme, and instead of developing I have to become a lawyer to understand it all.
I found this recently and I think it will help to choose licenses when someone releases an "open souce" project.

http://choosealicense.com/licenses/



Because of certain API's I had to create a Github account. This is the biggest proof that Opensource is a mess, people keep forking, don't bring anything new and in some cases have no idea of what they are doing. I've seen Linux nerds trying to push removal of VStudio support to the master repo.
Just because they don't use it and think it's a lot cooler to use cmake or any other mechanism.
That depends on the project. Other projects do quite well being open source.



I've even taken a look at a blender add-on. I only used it to see how it was done because the code was unusable, so what position are you in at that stage? Did you break a license agreement or not, do you feel like loosing 2 hours figuring it all out? Do you want to pay a lawyer huge amounts of money to find it out for you?
I'll say that goes with your ethics! :) If you learned the "how is done", but whatever you write is completely different I do not see the problem. At the end you are learning in that specific case, not copying.



As far as I am concerned, if you write code and want to share it, put it on the internet and let the users decide how they want to use it (for free).

If you don't want people to use your code/knowledge, don't put it on the internet.

creacon
If you do that without any type of license then you loose any copyright or even the satisfaction of being named on products that use your code.

And they are very easy to understand licenses like the BSD one, that allows you to do exactly that. :) And at least you will receive the recognition :)

Cheers,
David

Surrealist.
07-31-2015, 01:32 PM
how can it not be in their best interest

Well there are a lot of reasons actually. But basically you don't gain a better opinion of your own software, or more wide use by going out of your way to interface with the competition. You make access to the competition through commonly used interchange formats yes.

Blender has gained its exposure based on its merits. And the same goes for any product out there.

You may as well just say it would be equally viable to make a Maya plugin for LightWave. After all LightWave has lost the animation market, right? So why bother with Genomoa and RH should just forget about RHiggit tools and they should all just band together to make a Maya plugin to increase LightWave's presence on the animation market.

LightWave may have waned in the latter years. But the road up from that is making LightWave better. Anything else would be a distraction.

That is not even going into the morale and human side. The reasons these people are working with LightWave is because they love the product and want to make it better.

Do you actually think they they'd go do work everyday with ecitement thinking that LightWave has lost its hold and the only way up is to create a Blender or Modo plugin?

That is not giving these guys a lot of credit.

RebelHill
07-31-2015, 02:23 PM
You may as well just say it would be equally viable to make a Maya plugin for LightWave. After all LightWave has lost the animation market, right? So why bother with Genomoa and RH should just forget about RHiggit tools and they should all just band together to make a Maya plugin to increase LightWave's presence on the animation market.

This smells like poison... but bollocks be damned, I'll down it regardless...

Maya is, and for many good reasons there are no point in listing here, the king when it comes to character/creature animation in 3D. Debate it if you want, but it's a fact plainly demonstrated by the users/market (ergo, you'd be wrong).

If you can afford maya, if you can perform (or afford to buy in) the heavy lifting to rig in maya, and if you or your animators can animate in maya, then... ffs... do your CA work in maya, you would be mad not to.

The rub, ofc, is that not everyone fits those stated criteria, and if any one of them is missing for an individual or company, then maya becomes nothing but one big digital paperweight holding down their desktop wallpaper. And from this comes the reason (or at least I ought specify my reason) for not bothering to create some maya<>LW quicktool (not mentioning the fact that it already exists in the form of obj/mdd/geocache and any tool would just bundle those filetypes together essentially in a beaver project/point oven esque fashion).

The reason is to give those who are outside the maya sphere the best tools available for what they do have access to, where they want them (namely, inside LW). People use LW, they want to do this this kind of work, and they want the tools that allow them to do it on their own terms. It'd be EASY to turn them away, say look elsewhere, and try to sell them some "patch" to make the 2 ends join up, but, imo, that's not a "service" people really want most of the time. I suspect for me a good potion of this attitude stems from my past before 3D where I worked in home electrical retail and training. If you get a customer who wants a certain product or piece of information you don't immediately have, then you can just send them onto the next guy, tell them to look elsewhere, but that aint gonna do your business any favours in the long run. The harder, but better thing to do, is to try and source and serve their requirement as best you can, and if it fits their need... well... win win.

And so the real story becomes that maya is only the best if it's best for you, your circumstances, your budget, etc.

So that's why I do what I do.

One thing though, which has come about, without being an aim or intention, is that I have had some people (a minority to be sure, but a countable few nonetheless) actually come FROM maya/max and TO LW for their CA work PURELY on the strength of the RHiggit toolset as it has provided everything they specifically have needed with regard to CA work, and done so in a simpler/more efficient form than those others packages were giving them. It's hardly some grand coup, and in terms of a capture of market share I'm fully certain it would have to measured in fractions of 1%... but it was certainly an unexpected result which provides reasons I never had to begin with. I don't for a second believe I could churn out something that could compete outright with maya for CA work in LW, and even though I know therefore RHiggit wouldnt last a single round against maya... just getting one or 2 hits in on the champ is exceedingly gratifying.

robertoortiz
07-31-2015, 03:01 PM
I disagree that it will ever be LW3D Group that takes the charge and creates a Go to... anything. Zbrush is one thing.

I don't see that it is in their best interest. And I am fairly positive they do not see that either.

This is more than likely the domain of a third party developer.
Thanks man you saved me a LOT of typing.

stiff paper
07-31-2015, 03:37 PM
They have to get the word out and sell lightwave more aggressively.
but they don't even seem to be keen on doing that.
You should try starting from the assumption that -just maybe- the LW3DG have actually thought about all of this. I mean, it is their business to think about these things, so maybe they have.

Maybe they're waiting until they feel that they've definitely got something that's worth shouting about?

I have no idea. Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows? But I can at least think it through and decide that although I don't know, and I could be foolishly wrong, there is at least the possibility that there are reasons for the things the LW3DG does.

jeric_synergy
07-31-2015, 03:51 PM
They have to get the word out and sell lightwave more aggressively.
but they don't even seem to be keen on doing that.

blender folk are seeing 3rd powers plugins and drooling - so they are becoming aware of lightwave
this is absolutely something lightwave wants to take advantage of!!
One thing to remember is: professional publicity is NOT FREE. At the very least it costs the salary of someone who is paid to think about it.

For all we know, LW3dG's marketing budget is what's restricting them from greater presence in the market. Certainly they should try to capitalize as much as possible on any situation that puts LW in a good light to a great number of potential customers. But they can only do what they have the resources to do.

It'd be great if they could afford a competent spokesperson to continually flack LW around the world (more likely, on Skype), but competent spokespeople can probably make more money USING Lightwave. Maybe.

I think Rob's first move to make the LW pipeline very friendly to everybody else's software was the right move. We've been very fortunate to have some outstanding third party vendors coming up with drool-worthy additions. The central software seems to becoming more stable and usable, within certain limitation. We're looking good, IMO.

LW3dG resources aren't limitless, so we can help just by continuing to be a good community and making cool animations.

Shiny_Mike
07-31-2015, 04:25 PM
Certainly they should try to capitalize as much as possible on any situation that puts LW in a good light to a great number of potential customers. But they can only do what they have the resources to do.

They're definitely doing that - when Chris Jone's face animation came out, surge of Lightwave ads displaying it around CG sites/forums. :thumbsup:

spherical
07-31-2015, 04:43 PM
I disagree that it will ever be LW3D Group that takes the charge and creates a Go to... anything.

Well, the point is... you can consolidate, circle the wagons and be as insular as possible; but there's very little to be gained by taking that path and it could eventually lead to stagnation and worse. GoX plugin or not, at least be able to save in other application file formats; not have to jump through interchange format hoops. Make it easy for users to USE the product in whatever manner that they see fit. Otherwise, it's all about the developers and not about the customer. LightWave has some really great features. That's why it is still around. Keep it difficult to integrate into a pipeline and you hurt market share. IMO, it's just shortsighted to go that route.

Modo reads and writes lwo. This is one factor in our adding it to our 3D applications group. We didn't jump from LightWave to it; we brought it in alongside. LightWave will probably always be our primary toolset; around which other applications orbit like spokes on a wheel. Make those spokes work easier in both directions and they make LightWave more powerful.

Surrealist.
07-31-2015, 05:40 PM
Yeah I think there is a huge need for better interchange between all 3D apps. This is probably the single most difficult and underdeveloped aspects of 3D.

There are examples of this happening in a similar way. Pixar/Disney recognizes the need for everyone to be playing on the same field. It is of course in their best interest. And Side Effects is developing Houdini Engine. In these cases however the developer has everything to gain and very little if anything to loose.

The potential loss in this specific case (small team limited budget) is time spent on a distraction from the main goal which is making LightWave the best it could be. I can think of a dozen things more important to me and more apt to get me to start using LightWave again, than yet another side product/project that did not directly enhance LightWave.

Had Chrono Sculpt been integrated into LW, there is a very strong chance I would have reached for my wallet. As it turns out, that product went nowhere. It still lacked some of the key things I would have wanted. But with it in LightWave and showing dedication to develop this kind of technology into the package would have gone a long way to get LightWave into my pipeline.

For a small team this is the kind of thing they need to focus on in my opinion.

That's me.

Surrealist.
07-31-2015, 08:29 PM
Yeah, but blender users are like Amiga users: rare and CHEAP. Most would be hardpressed to buy 3rd Powers' product, let alone LW itself.

Most... if you consider that Blender casts a very wide net by nature of its growing popularity, the popularity of 3D in general and of course that it is free. Which attracts quite a lot of young people.

But it is a moot point because these people are not in the market for software anyway and would likely be using Autodesk student versions otherwise.

Of the users of Blender who are older and professional, the demographic is quite different. Most of them also own other software. The most popular are Maya and 3D Max. Freelancers in this group are charging the same rates as other freelancers. Even if their only or primary software is Blender.

This is by actual statistic, a survey or sorts, completely objective and not based on just a "perception".

So the group of Blender users in the market for other software is quite the same as any other software. LightWave as far as what it has to offer at its price is a potentially attractive offering to this group. And it does come up on the forums occasionally as people consider it as an option.

And if you notice hear on this board there are a good number of Blender users who also own and use LightWave.

lightscape
07-31-2015, 10:22 PM
Yeah, but blender users are like Amiga users: rare and CHEAP. Most would be hardpressed to buy 3rd Powers' product, let alone LW itself.

So so true. Clients expect almost everything for free or below 50 bucks.
Blender will never command the same pay rate as the bigboys.

spherical
07-31-2015, 11:28 PM
I can think of a dozen things more important to me and more apt to get me to start using LightWave again, than yet another side product/project that did not directly enhance LightWave.

Had Chrono Sculpt been integrated into LW, there is a very strong chance I would have reached for my wallet.

So you're are no longer using LightWave... and evidently haven't been for some time....

Surrealist.
08-01-2015, 10:10 AM
On the contrary. I should have clarified. I see how that wording is misleading.

It is not a part of my preferred production pipeline anymore. And neither is Blender - really. I mean I do use Blender for some modeling bits here and there. But all of my paying work comes from Blender and LightWave so far. That is just how it has worked out due to my history with software and connections I have made. So, LightWave is very much a part of my delivery process and I often receive assets in both Blender and LightWave format.

On the delivery end, it will almost always be in LightWave format or Blender format. But both programs at the moment are kind of relegated to that role. So on the LightWave side it does still require quite a bit of work - depending on the situation to prep for delivery in LightWave or using LightWave to export assets.

Once I get assets I use other applications to continue the process or if I am creating things from scratch it starts in other apps.

But I have my ear to the ground so to speak all the time. I am always looking for innovative tools to add to the mix.

Additionally, when I had my small studio open last year Blender was a very large part of it because it is quite capable of certain tasks, and being free and supper easy to train/learn I trained all my guys in it.

I could see LightWave with its licensing scheme, being attractive to fill that role in the future. But I'd need to see some fundamental changes.

It is on the way there I feel.

But back to the point, the least of those changes in my needs would be an interface with Blender or Modo.

LW3D Group has enough of an uphill battle as it is. And I am chiming in to say it is the changes in LightWave itself I am more interested in seeing.

Those are the things people like me are waiting for. And there are plenty of us ;)

jeric_synergy
08-01-2015, 10:24 AM
Richard, you lost me a bit (typo?): are you saying most of your paying work IS Lightwave and Blender, or not?

I'd certainly like to read a profile of your business.

Surrealist.
08-01-2015, 11:09 AM
Meaning all of my clients either use Blender or LightWave. I don't rely on those apps exclusively to get things done. I often receive and or deliver assets in LightWave.

prometheus
08-01-2015, 12:07 PM
Had Chrono Sculpt been integrated into LW, there is a very strong chance I would have reached for my wallet. As it turns out, that product went nowhere. It still lacked some of the key things I would have wanted. But with it in LightWave and showing dedication to develop this kind of technology into the package would have gone a long way to get LightWave into my pipeline.

.


I wonder how the chronosculpt product is doing, does it sell well?( will probably not get and decent info from users here I guess)
and how it is progressing in development ?(will probably not get any info from the lightwave team about that either)

Just as you, if it had been implemented in Lightwave, that could have made a lot of difference, not sure if it was/is possible in terms of technical obstacles in lightwave itself, or if it simply wouldnīt be a good business model ? what I heard from some in the lightwave group, was that the marriage with lightwave aint gonna happen, if that was in short term or definite, I donīt know.

I personally thought they went the wrong direction to do it as a seperate product, then again ..I could/can be completly wrong..if you take in account technical obstacles actually preventing my wishes to be unrealistic, and based upon how well chronosculpt is actually selling.

If the chronosculpt-lightwave marriage would be possible technicly, then I hope the lw team seriously considers that marriage.
Oh..no, I didnīt upgrade inspite of the attractive upgrade offer til the 31st of juli, were it to be something included like chronosculpt inside of lightwave itself, that would have been a good update offer that could have sold it to me.

jeric_synergy
08-01-2015, 12:22 PM
1) sepArate.

2) There's a Chronosculpt sub-board here, isn't there? Lurking there might give you a feel for how it's going.

Personally, I'm still pretty fuzzy on what exactly it is that CS does and why that would make me pull my wallet out. Who's the target demographic?

prometheus
08-01-2015, 12:30 PM
1) sepArate.

2) There's a Chronosculpt sub-board here, isn't there? Lurking there might give you a feel for how it's going.

Personally, I'm still pretty fuzzy on what exactly it is that CS does and why that would make me pull my wallet out. Who's the target demographic?


sorry for bad language...

2..last post from rob announcing..1 year and 8 months, the rest seems to be mostly techniqual support questions, or questions from users themself about what will happen...no real answers from the team.

fuzzy?
well..chronosculpt was released with video reals on youtube to explain around which ones who can benifit from it, why donīt you check there?

jeric_synergy
08-01-2015, 01:02 PM
1) "separate" is just a pet peeve of mine: I habitually misspelled it until finally an ex-teacher told me the mnemonic "There's a RAT in the middle of 'separate'." (I'm also hopeless on 'consistant'.)

2) At the time of release, I watched all the videos, and what I came away with is that CS is a very late-pipeline tool to tweak point location (including large groups of points). I say "late-pipeline" because it always seems to me (ha! when I >have< gigs) that there's always some pee-marking supervisor chiming in with tweeks at the last minute. Then you have to send it BACK to LW to render it. My other takeaway was that CS would work with many other softwares via....FBX? some promiscuous motion format. Which is good, but was there a need for this??? The demos seem to concetrate on repairing bad particle simulations.

Since I'm not looking to spend MORE money on s/w, I'll hold off on checking it out. 3rd Powers gets the next .... looking for a pithy synonym for "small amount of money I can ill afford".

prometheus
08-01-2015, 01:13 PM
Chronosculpt can edit and fix errogenous bullet simulations, move and edit...or lock parts you donīt want to break etc, fix soft body bullet dynamics to correct cloth etc, sculpt morph in time etc.
the need for correcting sims like this with the fbx format, I reckon that needs a tale to be told from users of for instance maya,max,cinema4d,modo ..or studios telling how that helped them out, the lw team explaining how valuable it would be as they did in the reel, that doesnīt cover how valuable it has been.

I think these latest post could probably be moved to the chronosculpt forums for a better coverage, but I think the webmasters need to develop a tool for that :) extracting only mine and your post lately.

prometheus
08-01-2015, 01:18 PM
1) "separate" is just a pet peeve of mine: I habitually misspelled it until finally an ex-teacher told me the mnemonic "There's a RAT in the middle of 'separate'." (I'm also hopeless on 'consistant'.)


My excuse....I am a Swede, even though it is spelled the same way in swedish as it is in english with exception for the " e "at the end...go figure :)

Surrealist.
08-01-2015, 02:05 PM
Yeah I have no idea about what is happening technically with CS or that hydra technology or whatever they are calling it. The point I guess I am making is what good does it do for LightWave - other than indirectly through revenue?

Nothing really. It might attract some people here.

On the other hand showing that they are dedicated to technology within LightWave that is innovative, does directly affect LightWave. If over the last few releases the chronosculpt development showed signs of moving ahead, it would have had a positive effect on LightWave sales.

And if they had rather included Nevron into LightWave and simply charged for an upgrade to get revenue rather than release a plugin to get revenue it would have been a much better move in the long run.

I do understand their thinking at the time. But in retrospect I think it has not helped LightWave that much at all. That is just my feeling on it. Which may or may not even be true more broadly.

But certainly it has had an effect on me. But fortunately for me I can wait til 2016, 2017 or whenever it is that LW starts to show something I feel I can use in my pipeline more directly.

In the meantime other software is not standing still. I have my eye on everything at the moment.

spherical
08-01-2015, 03:44 PM
It is not a part of my preferred production pipeline anymore. And neither is Blender - really. I mean I do use Blender for some modeling bits here and there. But all of my paying work comes from Blender and LightWave so far. That is just how it has worked out due to my history with software and connections I have made. So, LightWave is very much a part of my delivery process and I often receive assets in both Blender and LightWave format.

On the delivery end, it will almost always be in LightWave format or Blender format. But both programs at the moment are kind of relegated to that role. So on the LightWave side it does still require quite a bit of work - depending on the situation to prep for delivery in LightWave or using LightWave to export assets.

Thanks for the clarification, but it has confused more than one of us. I think I see what you mean, here, though. What this tells me is that you receive assets from clients or work team in Blender and LightWave, but do your work in other applications. Then, you export your work in Blender or LightWave formats, so that others can use your assets. What that says to me is that your workflow would definitely benefit from more efficient interchange between applications, perhaps more than others here, because it is your standard mode of operation.

Surrealist.
08-01-2015, 08:46 PM
I do fall into a rather large group of people who use multiple apps, yes. And I absolutely agree it is an area that could use a lot of attention. Not only in better working interchange formats, but I think that a plugin is a great idea. If you remember a few posts back I suggested the idea ;)

I am not sure how that would work. But there are a lot of features to take into account and it would be quite the undertaking to pull off. I think if a company wanted to make it their business, I think they could sell plugins.

But it is absolutely not the distraction a small company like LW 3D Group needs to be concerned with as I believe it would take a lot of work. Best left in the hands of a third party for reasons I have explained already.

That's my opinion. You don't have to agree.

spherical
08-01-2015, 09:40 PM
Geeez, was that last bit really necessary? It was going well prior to that. Never too late to screw it all up....

Thomas Leitner
08-02-2015, 12:56 AM
.... what I heard from some in the lightwave group, was that the marriage with lightwave aint gonna happen, if that was in short term or definite, I donīt know....
Like Rob Powers said in the censored thread about Chronosculpt it will never be inside LW:



There are no plans to specifically fold ChronoSculpt into LightWave. It is envisioned to be a stand alone product that works with all 3D software packages and pipelines. Now as far as the advanced mesh engine in ChronoSculpt that would be very useful in LightWave and it could be possible that this technology would enhance LightWave in a future version.

ciao
Thomas

Surrealist.
08-02-2015, 02:09 AM
Yes I do remember that exchange being recounted. While on the subject it does seem like neither Nevron or CS have been updated. Maybe they have seen the light and decided to change their minds and include both into LW. 2016 will be an interesting release I feel.

prometheus
08-02-2015, 12:58 PM
Like Rob Powers said in the censored thread about Chronosculpt it will never be inside LW:



ciao
Thomas
Quote Originally Posted by robpowers3d View Post
There are no plans to specifically fold ChronoSculpt into LightWave. It is envisioned to be a stand alone product that works with all 3D software packages and pipelines. Now as far as the advanced mesh engine in ChronoSculpt that would be very useful in LightWave and it could be possible that this technology would enhance LightWave in a future version."
[/QUOTE]

it says there is no such plans, but hey, they can make such plans if the standalone product donīt sell well..then they should investigate the value of putting it nativly inside of lightwave if no technical obstacles prevents it, the statement of hydra engine inside of lightwave suggests it might not be impossible.
I also believe many of the editing functions seem to have been an extension of what edit soft fx/clothfx was capable of but very much enhanced...not sure though.

Plans can change if it is of benefit, so I am just hoping for it to happen, but at the same time trying not having any illusions about it.

jeric_synergy
08-02-2015, 02:05 PM
You know what would be easier than folding it inside of LW? Making it very inexpensive.

The existing code is sunk cost. Any effort to integrate it into LW is more expense. If it's not selling at its price point, rather than throwing good money after bad(ish), making it more attractive TO THOSE WHO HAVE A USE FOR IT is a very inexpensive proposition.

I'm not even suggesting this (I probably don't have any use for CS), just pointing out there're several arrows in LW3dG's quiver in this matter.

Surrealist.
08-02-2015, 03:03 PM
I understand the thinking behind that. But I think all efforts should go to improving LightWave and making that application more attractive as a package. I also understand the thinking at the time was possibly to toss together a few quick much-needed plugins and improve revenue. And I also think they had this as the only plan at the time. But I really think it was short-sighted. That the long range effects of not adding these into LightWave take away from LightWave as a package. That is just user feedback on what I think would make LightWave more attractive to me. From the discussions here over the last few years it seems that other people feel would the same way.

prometheus
08-02-2015, 04:38 PM
I understand the thinking behind that. But I think all efforts should go to improving LightWave and making that application more attractive as a package. I also understand the thinking at the time was possibly to toss together a few quick much-needed plugins and improve revenue. And I also think they had this as the only plan at the time. But I really think it was short-sighted. That the long range effects of not adding these into LightWave take away from LightWave as a package. That is just user feedback on what I think would make LightWave more attractive to me. From the discussions here over the last few years it seems that other people feel would the same way.

+100%

libneon
08-02-2015, 04:48 PM
I understand the thinking behind that. But I think all efforts should go to improving LightWave and making that application more attractive as a package. I also understand the thinking at the time was possibly to toss together a few quick much-needed plugins and improve revenue. And I also think they had this as the only plan at the time. But I really think it was short-sighted. That the long range effects of not adding these into LightWave take away from LightWave as a package. That is just user feedback on what I think would make LightWave more attractive to me. From the discussions here over the last few years it seems that other people feel would the same way.

I haven't updated Lightwave since 9.6.

When you start looking at everything people suggest to solve the issues of Lightwave (all 3rd powers tools, rhiggit, LWCAD, chronosculpt, nevron etc.) you realize it's not so cheap anymore and other packages start to stand out a lot more. I still like Lightwave and I WANT to use it but especially with my primary interest at this point being game dev, it makes little sense unless a lot changes are coming. For a few hundred bucks I can be in 3dcoat or Modo indie and get much better tools at least on the modeling end of things.

Surrealist.
08-04-2015, 02:06 PM
Yeah that is a good point. Additionally there is Maya LT which rolls a lot of good things into one. (And later this year will also include the Stingray game engine for free) Not recommending it or not. Just pointing to the competition on the game market. So it does make it more imperative to beef LightWave up, even at its below 1K price point. You start adding up all of the plugins and you can purchase a full version of Modo. Again not recommending Modo, not even qualified to do that. But it is the competition.

jeric_synergy
08-04-2015, 07:18 PM
At what point is a price break on a BUNDLE of LW and agreed-upon 'must-have' plugins perceived as a tempting offer?

That is, e.g., LW+LWCad+3rdPowers+Octane, which I suspect (but am ignorant) would meet most high-end users definition?

spherical
08-04-2015, 11:56 PM
Some time ago, I compiled all of this information on our licenses here, as regards the cost of LightWave as a whole; including all of the commercial plugins needed to get it to do what we want/need. The plugin portion was larger than the LightWave portion by a significant amount. I'll try to find it (and bookmark it when I do).

That said, I would be VERY dubious that a simple bundle would ever be able to be assembled. Too many players in too many areas to appease; so is essentially a moot question to ask.

Surrealist.
08-05-2015, 07:25 PM
At what point is a price break on a BUNDLE of LW and agreed-upon 'must-have' plugins perceived as a tempting offer?

That is, e.g., LW+LWCad+3rdPowers+Octane, which I suspect (but am ignorant) would meet most high-end users definition?

You could hit a few different markets with this idea.

You could have a modeling pack at one price.

An animation pack at basically the same price.

And a pack that included both modeling and animation for another price.

I would think of leaving it at that. I think you could cover a lot of ground with just an animation and modeling pack.

That would cover what most users would expect. I am not sure I'd try to get into special effects and rendering. Just cover the basics.

If NT had the wherewithal, (initial purchase and licensing) I would think it would behoove them to snatch up some of these plugins and include them.

Unless they have something better up their sleeves soon, that is.

visualbug
08-16-2015, 04:07 PM
I wish that you guys start thinking about blender community as a market,
not as a cheap poor nerds using a free software, because they have no money to spend......

I own lightwave
and a lot of "blender users" are professionals and freelancers using 3d software, no only blender, but maya, modo, 3dmax, lightwave, vray, renderman, etc.

Lightwave connected via plugin or Add-ons, (as we call it) can be a good thing for newtek.
you will have a future market of freelancers 3d artists, creating short films and 3d images, promoting lightwave WITH blender, free marketing campaign, and more benefits....newtek need this..............if PIXAR Renderman is officially in blender, I think lightwave needs to start thinking about it............

we have already: Vray for blender (official support from chaosgroup), pixar Renderman, ......official...........
Octane render official from otoy.................unreal (donation$$$ to improve the software), Valve (donation$$ too) NVIDIA, HP, and more support that I have no idea ;)
so a lot of companies knows that blender users are growing fast and a lot of professionals are "checking" this little free software.......

I hope that newtek think about this,...................can be a dream to connect lightwave and blender in a pipeline............ ;) sharing cameras, render, lights effects, smoke simulations
but official support from newtek, not using .FBX or collada, because, you can do this in any software, official support can be very appealing for this new market...

blender have a very promising future, the question is: Newtek is ready to take this opportunity?
because blender development is so fast..... that in 2 or 3 years, we will not need lightwave anymore.........

Chernoby
08-16-2015, 05:30 PM
After hating on Blender for so long... I have to admit it is the schizzle. It is my go to for many a thing now including modeling. And all my colleagues and friends who do 3D use it as at the very least a secondary tool.

For experimental animation and computer art it is the only thing I see ppl using now. Everyday I use it more and more. Everything else less and less.

Surrealist.
08-17-2015, 01:57 AM
I would say it is fairly obvious that people in a position to know and care are well aware of the real status of Blender in the market. Autodesk, The Foundry, Side Effects, NewTek, LW 3D Group, Maxon and even Adobe are, I would think, well aware of the role that Free Open Source Software (FOSS) plays in the market. One absolute fact I do know is that the reality is a multi-billion dollar a year proposition. Yet some people choose to label OSS (Open Source Software) as insignificant nerdy child's play or the realm of armatures and fair-weather programmers. But those characterizations are propagated by people who have not done the research and have no statistics to back up their opinions. People in the software business on the other hand are professionals in this field and it is their business to know the parameters of the game. It is these people who make the decisions. Not people posting on the forums. And these decisions are driving the industry and changing the landscape of pricing and availability of software to indies and students. To these people it is fairly clear that the impact of FOSS is very real even if it is dismissed by scores of uniformed users.

So do not dismay over what you hear here.

If LW 3F group acts on some kind of incentive or not, it will more than likely not be because they are not aware of the potential benefits or the impact of Blender.

It will be more to do with where they choose to focus their resources.

visualbug
08-17-2015, 09:48 AM
I would say it is fairly obvious that people in a position to know and care are well aware of the real status of Blender in the market. Autodesk, The Foundry, Side Effects, NewTek, LW 3D Group, Maxon and even Adobe are, I would think, well aware of the role that Free Open Source Software (FOSS) plays in the market. One absolute fact I do know is that the reality is a multi-billion dollar a year proposition. Yet some people choose to label OSS (Open Source Software) as insignificant nerdy child's play or the realm of armatures and fair-weather programmers. But those characterizations are propagated by people who have not done the research and have no statistics to back up their opinions. People in the software business on the other hand are professionals in this field and it is their business to know the parameters of the game. It is these people who make the decisions. Not people posting on the forums. And these decisions are driving the industry and changing the landscape of pricing and availability of software to indies and students. To these people it is fairly clear that the impact of FOSS is very real even if it is dismissed by scores of uniformed users.

So do not dismay over what you hear here.

If LW 3F group acts on some kind of incentive or not, it will more than likely not be because they are not aware of the potential benefits or the impact of Blender.

It will be more to do with where they choose to focus their resources.


Thanks for your answer Surrealist,
if LW 3D Group is targeting indies, freelancers and small studios, they need to get official support in blender, is a win-win.............every blender new version is downloaded millions of times, every 6 months or less, blender foundation servers EXPLODE in every new version, I have to wait one or two days to download the official new blender every time.............imagine if one of the new features is official support from lightwave ;). and scene connection and sync between apps.......WoW....

I just hope that LW 3D Group and Rob, get this opportunity, there are a lot of blender users that wish to use lightwave together with blender (I am one of them)
If I can connect a blender scene with layout and vice-versa, I will be the happiest kid in blender town................
using blender simulations, riggid bodies and smoke, hair and character animation inside Layout an
render inside lightwave can be a dream...........(I am talking about layout, just connect blender to layout, like modeler, )

if you check blenderartists forums, you can see topics like this one: "how I can get blender to lightwave" so is not my wish, you have a lot of people in our community........

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?99064-blender-to-lightwave

if you go to search on google you get 786,000 results,.......................

Blender users and programmers ARE TRYING TO GET LIGHTWAVE connected in blender on their OWN, we have a Standard ADD-ON (plugin) already inside blender official:
http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/Import-Export/LightWave_Object

"Allows you to import a LightWave object, both the newer LWO2 and original LWOB/LWLO formats. For layered objects, each layer is created as its own object.
Will import and apply UV, Morph, Color and Weight map data. Can also construct an Armature from an embedded Skelegon rig.
Maintains correct vertex order/count so that .mdd files can be exchanged between 3D programs. "

just GET THIS PLUGIN AND START WORKING WITH IT!!!
(PIXAR RENDERMAN did the same, they start working in an existing plugin that blender has and continue working in it, now we have renderman for blender, first day, renderman servers explode, blender users start downloading renderman to test....I could not download renderman for 3 days..................)

I hope that LW group and Rob is reading this thread............if you give lightwave demo for 60 days to the blender community to try..........like me, you will see what's going to happens.......

ahh, and you need to do nothing, just give some support to blender developers are happy to help to get lightwave working with blender:

another post in our forums, as you see, blender users wants blender-lightwave, they are begging for it......... ::

http://www.elysiun.com/forum/showthread.php?314838-Export-to-Lightwave-Please
:::::::::
Export to Lightwave Please!

The one thing that bothers me about using blender is that from one version to the next scripts are either missing from previous builds.
There is only one option now for Lightwave and that is to import, the export to Lightwave does not exists since blender 2.4 or at least that is what I found searching the site.

There are so many LW users on here that it makes sense to keep these simple tools updated and carried over to the next Blender update. I am not a coder by any stretch, but the development team keep scripts that would be used on regular basis up to date.

I do understand that Blender is open source and it's people time and effort that go into making Blender what it is today. The only reason I am using Blender is for fluid dynamics something that LW does have and to try and use the particle system is not efficient of very accurate in Lightwave.

I do believe in supporting Open source projects, however doing a simple export to Lightwave should be a blender must have.

I discovered Blender has an import script which works brilliantly!!!!!!!!!!! everything intact when importing the Lightwave object. Can we do the same in reverse please export to Lightwave with the same capabilities as the import script now that is work Support payment alone

Even better export a Blender scene to Lightwave and import a Lightwave wave scene this would be worth supporting

visualbug
08-17-2015, 10:14 AM
Is more simple: LWgroup and Rob, just need to ask Ton Roosendaal about support, just ONE TWEET can be a game changing for lightwave and blender ;)
and start using the script (addon or plugin) as a base to program the official blender-lightwave plugin or addon.....................

As you can see, without LWgroup support, we are using blender and lightwave, creating short films, transferring fluids, we are doing a lot without support.....And we love lightwave.... ;)
you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see whats going on:

just a quick google search:

We are doing short films using blender - lightwave:

Crumbs (animated short film made in Blender & Lightwave)
hort animated film made in 10 days using Blender and Lightwave. Animated in Blender and rendered in Lightwave 2015 using the new edge intersection feature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Rrc8Q0Ow0

Blender Fluids for Lightwave
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z3vHLjEKk8

Blender Molecular Particles - Rendered in Lightwave
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZyeQZcaUKA

m.d.
08-17-2015, 12:03 PM
After hating on Blender for so long... I have to admit it is the schizzle. It is my go to for many a thing now including modeling. And all my colleagues and friends who do 3D use it as at the very least a secondary tool.

For experimental animation and computer art it is the only thing I see ppl using now. Everyday I use it more and more. Everything else less and less.

I am in the same boat....used to laugh at blender (ironic)

Ton tweeted today about a studio in indonesia with 300+ employees running solely on blender

Surrealist.
08-17-2015, 12:11 PM
lol that is pretty cool. And not at all surprising.

Hey could you post some info on that in the Gooseberry thread?

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?143183-Watch-for-Project-Gooseberry/page9

hdace
08-17-2015, 01:47 PM
One thing though, which has come about, without being an aim or intention, is that I have had some people (a minority to be sure, but a countable few nonetheless) actually come FROM maya/max and TO LW for their CA work PURELY on the strength of the RHiggit toolset as it has provided everything they specifically have needed with regard to CA work, and done so in a simpler/more efficient form than those others packages were giving them. It's hardly some grand coup, and in terms of a capture of market share I'm fully certain it would have to measured in fractions of 1%... but it was certainly an unexpected result which provides reasons I never had to begin with. I don't for a second believe I could churn out something that could compete outright with maya for CA work in LW, and even though I know therefore RHiggit wouldnt last a single round against maya... just getting one or 2 hits in on the champ is exceedingly gratifying.

That is so cool to hear. I've been developing the same project for 5 years now. And it could take another couple to finish. At the beginning I seriously considered Maya (who wouldn't?). But I loved monkeying around with RHiggit! so much I couldn't let go. They had to pull me away from my mouse screaming! Several people have joined me on the journey and the one thing no one ever raises is the issue of whether we should have used Maya for CA. We all love what RH has done for this project. Thanks Man!

PS: I love putting the exclamation mark on the end of the name. I noticed RH himself doesn't bother, but I shall continue!

PPS: I use Blender occasionally (my recognition of the original subject of the thread!) and yes, Chilton or somebody ought to come out with a super duper interchange plugin. I could never use that darn interface for serious work but you just can't ignore Blender's usefulness. I remember I once spent half a day testing settings on fbx & collada ins & outs until I got it right (chose fbx in the end 'cause collada sucked).

PPPS: I recently convinced a friend of mine to write an add-on for Blender for me. It was a big favor and I knew I would only get one so I saved it up for something really important. Part of the thing that convinced him to do it was that he might be able to sell the add-on eventually. Can you sell add-ons for Blender? Maybe this is the wrong venue for that question... Anyway, he did a great job. Maybe he doesn't really care about selling it after all. Is that a friend or what?

visualbug
08-17-2015, 06:19 PM
yes you can sell, add-ons, props characters, we have a market for that!
tell your friend that yes, he can produce more add-ons and tools ;) jeje

https://cgcookiemarkets.com/blender/

hdace
08-17-2015, 08:05 PM
Cheers. I sent him the link.

safetyman
08-18-2015, 05:40 AM
I'm not pointing to anyone specific, but I always get confused when people complain about Blender's UI. [RANTMODE ON]Can we make a rule from now on: When someone mentions problems they have with the UI they must list examples. What specifically bothers you? What do you find difficult to grasp? I hear a lot of folks mention the UI but fail to give reasons or examples of what they don't like (and don't link me to Andrew Price's posts... that's a cop out and irrelevant at this point). Sorry to put up a stop sign of sorts, but I find Blender's interface quite easy to use (and I've used all the big boys). Which is more intimidating when you first open it up, Maya or Blender? The UI thing is old news; this forum has the smartest most 3d-knowledgeable folks in the business so I think we are past this issue of Blender's "alien" UI.[RANTMODE OFF]

jeric_synergy
08-18-2015, 08:34 AM
. [RANTMODE ON]Can we make a rule from now on: When someone mentions problems they have with the UI they must list examples. What specifically bothers you? What do you find difficult to grasp? I hear a lot of folks mention the UI but fail to give reasons or examples of what they don't like ....
Seems fair to me.

One needn't make mockups-- they're a lot of work and I've made more than my share-- but words are EASY.

And I agree: while the whole "3D cursor" thing seems strange, after a couple days one starts to see the utility, and after a couple more, you really miss the damn thing back in LWM. Especially since it makes snapping so easy.

hdace
08-18-2015, 10:21 AM
It's insulting to suggest that there's something about Blender's UI that I don't "grasp". However, I openly admit that my hatred for it is solely derived from my dinosaur ways. I've tried lots of different packages and I hate them only because they're not LightWave. I even hated Core for the same reason. And I'm one of the few who also hate the idea of combining Modeler & Layout into one interface. I dread the day that happens.

I'm using LightWave to get work done and I'm not interested in going through anymore learning curves. I'm glad all you spring chickens enjoy learning new stuff everyday. That's a healthy thing. I too sometimes enjoy learning new things when I find them useful, like RHiggit! & Octane.

I could list a hundred items in Blender's UI that I hate, but I'm not going to sit here and do that because I've got real work to do. It took too long just to write this. Sorry that I said my opinion. I'm glad you like using Blender. I don't, but that doesn't mean I don't respect it.

btw, in case you're wondering, I'm 51 and I've been a professional in the film business since 1983, when I was 19. So yeah, definitely a dinosaur!

jeric_synergy
08-18-2015, 10:28 AM
Did anyone suggest that?

visualbug
08-18-2015, 11:19 AM
what I like or dislike about a program, is just PERSONAL preferences................you have adapt to any software. if you want to use it, period.

we can continue talking about what LW group/developers can learn and benefit from blender and vice-versa. ;)

safetyman
08-18-2015, 06:19 PM
hdace -- I didn't intend to single you out and if it came across that way I apologize. It's just that it seems like in every thread that mentions Blender the UI is mentioned as a stumbling block when it really shouldn't be.

I started with Sculpt/Animate 4d back in my Amiga days, then truespace, Animation:Master, Ray Dream, Strata, and a few others whose names I forget, before finally getting to LW back in the mid-90's. So I've used everything I could get my hands on, including Maya and 3DS when my company could spare the coin. After all that, I've found Blender to be the easiest to use by quite a wide margin. Sure, it's got its quirks, but they are easily overcome by the countless other things that make my workflow faster than ever.

Call me a fanboy or whatever but I really enjoy using Blender and it keeps getting better with each release. I don't mean to rant so I'll shut my trap now.

spherical
08-18-2015, 06:55 PM
I've used/have at least as many applications in the 3D area, am a programmer, tech savvy and a problem solver. I find the Blender UI to be unintuitive. Many conventions that are in other applications are not adopted. Lots of muscle memory to be overcome. If I am away form Blender for any amount of time, and return to get something done, I have to research where everything is and how to manipulate/view a mesh all over again. This shouldn't be.

I would venture that it is a case of "too many cooks" and that is why it is the way it is and stays that way for the most part. Too much resistance to change, because the committee is so large. Great UI design cannot be successfully done by committee; nor can anything else great, for that matter. (With the exception of a Saturn V and LM.) You've heard the anecdote about Camels:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/a_camel_is_a_horse_designed_by_a_committee

There are people who take to the Blender UI like a duck to water, but not everyone's brains are wired the same. Doesn't mean that either are necessarily wrong; just not a good match.

visualbug
08-18-2015, 07:18 PM
"resistance to change" is the problem....
As any software you need to be "open minded" you cannot hope to open blender and do the same as in lightwave.............coming from blender when I openned lightwave was like : what the [email protected]##% is this? modeler and layout separate!! ??? but after, I got a intro tutorial, and now I have an "idea" how lightwave works.............and reading the forums I am more "updated" of strengths and weakness compare to blender...................this is why I hope LWgroup offer official support to blender, because together blender + lightwave is a powerful team, blender supply what lightwave is missing and vice-versa............. ;) smoke, fire, animation tools, camera tracking you name it! LW powerfull and production ready layout/renderer....big scenes..........a dream team......

blender is mostly "shortcut friendly" you can do almost everything with your keyboard, is light fast little software, (80 mg), portable in a USB drive, if you want too, not install is required...
the only way is to get one video tutorial about blender UI.............and you will be producing in no time.

visualbug
08-18-2015, 07:50 PM
ups. double post

seghier
08-18-2015, 08:57 PM
the old version of blender have bad inteface but the new versions are very easy to use and everyone can quickly learn it and find what he want with alot of tutorials
blender more active than lightwave adn have nice features with many free plugins
now exist other version based on blender : fluid designer , nice software for interior design

Surrealist.
08-19-2015, 12:05 AM
In all fairness though a discussion about specifics about any app as far as use probably should go in a support section. I don't think it mixes well with general discussion. The problem is people have experience and get opinionated. And when you try and challenge those opinions with specifics people get defensive. And that is not the right mindset to learn or to teach. (experience having been there and done that on both sides)

I think Spherical brings up a good point about people taking to Blender or not. But I would also take that a step further and say it applies to any app.

I have some apps that I think are more intuitive to me. Surely. But at the same time I take the time to learn an app that isn't.

Some apps I love others hate. Maya comes to mind. I love it. Others I know or have heard can't stand it.

Is they because they are wired different? Yeah I think so.

But every app has this. Not just Blender.

lightscape
08-19-2015, 12:27 AM
Many conventions that are in other applications are not adopted. Lots of muscle memory to be overcome.

That is the biggest problem for blender for most people. If there's vast majority of people complaining about it its not a fluke.

Would the majority want to use a different keyboard layout when there's already a standard we have now? Hell no why would they?





I have some apps that I think are more intuitive to me. Surely.

There you go. Not everything is subjective. Bad design is bad design. And there are some apps that just makes sense from the start. Blender was not designed to be user-friendly. And it will never change as long as Ton is around.

Surrealist.
08-19-2015, 01:58 AM
That is the biggest problem for blender for most people. If there's vast majority of people complaining about it its not a fluke.

No one has ever provided a proper statistic to back up this claim. A properly done objective survey on most everyone in the industry. And that also included every app that is available. And also properly taken each application one by one and surveyed specific items in each app for comparison.

There are several reasons why this has never happened. One, it would be incredibly expensive and time consuming to do. Second it would require getting willing and qualified subjects. Which would likely mean paying professionals as well as hobbyists and students to sit down in a lab environment and test each application.

Just saying, "well look at all of the feedback on the forums", is not adequate. It is flawed at best, biased, and it has been tried before and it failed. All you get is the people with some vested interest one way or the other to fight and make claims. Not everyone comes out and gives fair and balanced information. Probably most people have not even contributed.

Meanwhile people who are qualified to give objective opinions because they actually use more than one application are ignored completely.

This is exactly what happened before. It was the result of a very weak and not-too-well-thought-out plan by Andrew who later had to admit it was the wrong approach. And interestingly he completely ignored all of the feedback he was not looking for. That is not scientific. In one long raging thread here (which I pointed him to to get information), he grabbed one little snippet about "Hazing". That was it. Yet the thread contained all kinds of feedback and facts relating Blender to other apps from people who use both that he completely ignored. Very interesting.



Would the majority want to use a different keyboard layout when there's already a standard we have now? Hell no why would they?

I love this one. Every single app has a different keyboard layout. There is no standard outside of Left Click. Blender uses Right Click. That is it. And that is not even a keyboard layout.



There you go. Not everything is subjective. Bad design is bad design. And there are some apps that just makes sense from the start. Blender was not designed to be user-friendly. And it will never change as long as Ton is around.

I was talking about a subjective reality we all have. But in fairness I think it is a combination of both.

I agree some people will never gravitate to Blender. But then not everyone will gravitate to Maya either. And should we start up the discussion about Zbrush interface? Probably the most-used sculpting app in the industry. It was extremely unintuitive to use for me. I fought it the whole way.

I could rant for days on my loathing for the Zbrush interface. But that does not stop me from using it. And it has not stopped a lot of great artists either.

So is this Subjective or Objective?

I think it is both.

And completely immaterial in the debate about Blender because you can not stand it out from other apps and say it is any different. Though people try.

Unless someone is going to actually fund a proper survey it is not likely we will ever have a statistic on any of this and the debates will rage on with people flinging opinions both informed and uninformed.

Oedo 808
08-19-2015, 02:37 AM
I could rant for days on my loathing for the Zbrush interface. But that does not stop me from using it.

So it still never grew on you? I used to not be a fan of it, and it wasn't helped by the fact I found 3DC that much easier to use, but eventually I got to like it, or maybe it just broke my will.

Surrealist.
08-19-2015, 03:14 AM
Oh yeah I find it is fine now. Outside of the things that are just "objectively" difficult. That being sliders and buttons that are extremely small and in some cases difficult to read and manipulate. Then there are some things that the logic still escapes me. But I learned them because it is either that or miss out on an incredible tool set.

The navigation is completely different than anything else. I have to refresh my muscle memory each time.

But I do this with every app I use.

Honestly if taking into consideration how most all of the other apps out there work. That is, with a universal manipulator and transform/snapping and workplane system, if any app stands out at all as completely different it would be Modeler. But new tools have changed that somewhat. From what I can see anyway. Though I have not used them. Just in principle though Modeler is one of the few apps that does not work the way all of the others do. And for this reason I think it is far more difficult to go from Modeler to something else. At least it was that way. Though now maybe not as much.

But if/when Modeler gets some love and I find myself drawn to it again, I could see working to get comfortable with it (again) in order to avail myself of those tools. Just like I do with everything else. Until then, it does these days feel fairly alien. Whereas Blender, Maya and XSI - the other apps I can model in seem pretty much on the same footing.

But that is just how I look at things.

safetyman
08-19-2015, 05:29 AM
Many conventions that are in other applications are not adopted. Lots of muscle memory to be overcome.
That is the biggest problem for blender for most people. If there's vast majority of people complaining about it its not a fluke.

Would the majority want to use a different keyboard layout when there's already a standard we have now? Hell no why would they?.

What are these conventions you speak of? As Surrealist says, every app has a different layout -- there is no "standard". Heck, Maya and Max are totally different in terms of layout and keyboard shortcuts. It's like that on purpose. Can you imagine if AD suddenly made both apps have all the same icons/shortcuts/etc.? The chaos with Max and Maya purists would be immense. Not to mention all the folks who would say that they need only 1 app (including the stockholders).

If Blender came out with a new version and all their interface/keyboard shortcuts, etc. matched Maya's, do you think it would "convert" a bunch of Maya loyalists? I doubt it. It might even get the Blender Foundation in trouble with AD. BTW -- Blender does have a Max and Maya "preset" in its interface preferences. I've never used it so I can't tell you what it does, but I would imagine that it adopts kb shortcuts and interface navigation from those two apps.


There you go. Not everything is subjective. Bad design is bad design. And there are some apps that just makes sense from the start. Blender was not designed to be user-friendly. And it will never change as long as Ton is around.

Again, you don't cite any examples of "bad design". How do you define "not user friendly"? If I find the interface intuitive and easy to use and you don't, that's the definition of subjective and it doesn't make what you say the way everyone feels. I'm not saying you have to prove anything to me; I won't change your mind no matter what and you won't change mine, but at least give folks who are willing the kick the tires some proof that Blender isn't worth the effort and let them decide for themselves.

Chernoby
08-19-2015, 07:13 AM
This thread has degenerated into the problem with the Blender UI. ��

Quick note: the Blender Maya preset is extremely buggy with simple stuff like polygon loop selection and a lot of other things. It is less of a hassle to just learn the Blender presets.

And it is hilarious that ppl think Blender's UI is standard (or that "there is no standard so Blender in a way is standard"). I use it now for almost everything 3D. And it is definitely different, which can definitely be a weakness.

Surrealist.
08-19-2015, 08:11 AM
No body has ever said Blender is standard or is a standard. But it is a fact that there are no standards.

I have almost equal production time in Blender and Maya. Certainly more time in Blender. But between Maya and XSI about the same. And LightWave probably, actually about the same too.

I could make a long and complete list of similarities and differences. And I could get real specific about a wide range of tools from Modeling Animation and Dynamics.

Yet there are no"standards" I could list outside of Right Click Select and Z up that make Blender stand out as different. Beyond that, they are all equally different. Different menu set ups, different interaction, different placement of UI elements, different key shorts. But also an alarming number of things similar between Blender and Maya. I find that interesting since Maya is considered one of the most-used production tools all around.

spherical
08-19-2015, 08:58 AM
Heh. I have five installs of Blender; one plain vanilla and the other four all running different plugin sets - one of which is CAM.

lightscape
08-19-2015, 06:11 PM
No one has ever provided a proper statistic to back up this claim. A properly done objective survey on most everyone in the industry. And that also included every app that is available. And also properly taken each application one by one and surveyed specific items in each app for comparison.


There's no need to. If you're in the business you would know. Freelancers may not know they're in a self-contained bubble.
You don't need to have exact statistics to know Michael Jordan is popular. His face is synonymous to basketball.
Blender has a lot less penetration in the market than the big 3 no matter if its free or how many blender peeps try to promote it. The fact that many users in different forums are irate about blender ui and workflow tells a lot about it.



But it is a fact that there are no standards.


Wrt is common for translation, rotation, scaling in a lot of appz. Pan, zoom, orbit as well not just in dcc but also cad cam which blender has its own "unique" 3d cursor. The lmb and rmb debate went on a few years before blender gave in and is adjusting to the standard.

jeric_synergy
08-19-2015, 06:15 PM
Isn't the 3D cursor just a fancy way of saying "action center"? And it's MUCH better, with its snapping, than LW's near non-existent snapping facilities.

visualbug
08-19-2015, 06:30 PM
while you are "complaining" about UI, there are millions of people using blender and downloads to prove it...............adapting to a new software........
if you are not open minded to new UI (blender, zbrush) as I said, is personal preferences, you like it, you learn to use it..............

I prefer to read people talking about the GOOD things and the BAD things, not just "I don't like it, because I don't like it: is bad"
I can say a good thing, about blender UI, IS LIGHT FAST!!! doing anything in blender is just so fast............they got this right, shortcuts are the main advantage of blender, one person did a hotbox for blender (similar to maya)..........I never use it. period, slow you down..........blender is not lightwave, is not maya, blender is blender, you like it or not, you use it or not ;) and everybody is happy.

the "unique" 3d cursor is one of the easiest and more useful little tool ever....you can model, rig, animate, rotate, translate.........is the little evil that you love/hate ;) ......MAYA is a beast, slow clunky UI, but is the king in this business, and if you want to use it, you have to adapt to it......to bad that softimage is death, this was an awesome software..............

(the future blender 2.8 will change the UI a little bit, to make you guys happy ;) ))

just no more "off-topic" jejeje

back to the main idea: what LW devs can learn from Blender community, foundation, business model, development model?

Surrealist.
08-19-2015, 09:38 PM
There's no need to. If you're in the business you would know. Freelancers may not know they're in a self-contained bubble.
You don't need to have exact statistics to know Michael Jordan is popular. His face is synonymous to basketball.
Blender has a lot less penetration in the market than the big 3 no matter if its free or how many blender peeps try to promote it. The fact that many users in different forums are irate about blender ui and workflow tells a lot about it.


Well you are correct on the first part. But I think you are just confusing the subject here. I can tell you why Blender is not being used in the industry broadly. I could give you a fairly complete list of the things that is holding it back. Interface and UI would not be on that list. Because I could - as I said - make a similar list of the enough of the most-used software in the industry (that I use) and prove that there are actually not enough differences in Blender's UI or workflow to back up the claims people continue to make.

Pointing to "people being irate and having problems with" as some kind of proof does not qualify (and absolutely does not scientifically quantify by statistic) which you would need to do to come up with a figure that would be "most people". That would be factually 51 percent or greater than 100 percent of people who encounter Blender's UI for the first time. But also in comparison similar studies with every other app to find out the percentage of people encountering all software that have an issue with the UI on the first go.

No one has done this and until it is done, no one can say "most people", because there no facts to back that up.

Nor does it even remotely address the real reasons why Blender is not in broad use.




Wrt is common for translation, rotation, scaling in a lot of appz. Pan, zoom, orbit as well not just in dcc but also cad cam which blender has its own "unique" 3d cursor. The lmb and rmb debate went on a few years before blender gave in and is adjusting to the standard.

I have already handy capped right click select as really the only thing that breaks convention - with all apps. They have not switched it yet - it has always been an option - but when they do switch it for real, it will require completely remapping other hard coded select options that you otherwise loose if you do it now. And to my knowledge they have not sorted that out yet. Only agreed in principle to change it. Seeing as that is really the one single convention that is broken, (aside from Z up) It would be safe to say studios will not start using Blender because of it.

What it comes down to is trying to claim that the reason Dreamworks is not using Blender is because they don't expect their artists and TDs to adopt Right Click and Z up.

They could save millions in license fees. But no. They won't do that. Hmmm... maybe just maybe there is some other reason.

Tranforms (wrt) is not at all a standard. It is used. But not at all consistently.

A sampling:

MAYA:
W -Move
R-Scale
E-Rotate

ZBRUSH

W-Move
R-Rotate
E-Scale

XSI:

X Scale
C Rotate
V Move

BLENDER

G Move (g for Grab)
R Rotate
S Scale

What a concept. The letters actually relate to the words for what these tools do. (in English) Who'd a thunk it?

LightWave

T Move (Translate)
H Scale
Y Rotate

Navigation is another exhaustive list of dissimilarity. And we have only covered the most basic of basic. And even a sampling of the software out there proves there is no convention.

Making a full list or chart of all UI elements in most 3D software would take weeks or months. But it would prove the same thing. People who use multiple apps know this already of course.

lightscape
08-19-2015, 09:48 PM
I prefer to read people talking about the GOOD things and the BAD things, not just "I don't like it, because I don't like it: is bad"

Meh.
I only pointed out that there are some common standards that blender ignores. Its badly designed UIX. But the toolset itself is feature rich no doubt, I use the fluid sim a lot. Camera tracker is handy so is the FREE part.


Here's some statistics from the leading resource of 3d models on the net. Granted I've only earned 50k cumulative for several years so its not good to dedicate your time creating models solely for selling imho, but it is a good indication of the buy and sell rate of file formats. Giimann has half a million earnings from max format afaik.
There's no Modo in the list out of a possible 50+ formats sold for any 90 day period. Blender is not in the top ten.
The fact that lightwave and softimage is in the top 10 tells you something.

http://s10.postimg.org/9sh9f9tzt/Stats.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

lightscape
08-19-2015, 09:51 PM
absolutely does not scientifically quantify by statistic

I posted mine. Where's yours that's not hearsay?

Surrealist.
08-19-2015, 10:25 PM
lol. Nice try.

That is a statistic that does not apply. That is model sales file format from what I suppose is, Turbosquid or some such?

Notice the top three. Max obj and fbx.

Has anyone made the argument that Blender is the #1 selling/used software out there? No.

You said that most people have a problem with the UI and interface - as a reason it is not adopted in the industry or most used. Backed up, not by a statistic, but by heresy.

And now you bring in a statistic from file formats which has nothing to do with the reasons Blender is 11th in overall use.

To find the reasons you don't need a survey. To find out statistically how people respond to something like UI elements, you do.

If you want to just say, "most people in the industry have an issue with Blender", then we agree. No rocket science or file format stats needed.

spherical
08-19-2015, 10:25 PM
BLENDER

G Move (g for Grab)
R Rotate
S Scale

What a concept. The letters actually relate to the words for what these tools do. (in English) Who'd a thunk it?

Then it would be M....

Surrealist.
08-19-2015, 11:26 PM
Actually Grab is a better description of what the "Move" tool does compared to other apps. When you right click and drag on a selection in Blender it invokes the Grab tool. And the actual name is "Grab/Move (http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.4/Manual/3D_interaction/Transformations/Basics/Grab)"

Depending on your setting in prefs, the Grab tool literally grabs the selection and drags it around unless you have it set to "release confirms", which is not the default, or if at the default you right click to release. With release confirms enabled it operates more similar to apps.

However if you invoke the Grab tool with the G key it operates by the default regardless of the setting in prefs.

But like a lot of things in Blender's way of doing things, they are designed with ergonomics in mind. At the default you don't have to keep pressing down on the mouse. When modeling for hours a day it adds up. Maya to me is the most painful app to model in. Blender by contrast, is far more ergonomic. I do usually set it to "release confirms" so when I am editing it is like an automatic Drag tool. But still operates at the default if I am using G.

All of the transform tools operate this way when you use the key shorts.

And probably this is one thing that you could list as "unconventional". It would throw most people on the first try.

But the trade off in this case is learning it means happier fingers :)

jeric_synergy
08-20-2015, 12:04 AM
Then it would be M....
M is pm the other hand/paw. Not a good idea.

If you want to pick a letter that's on the non-mouse hand to denote Move/Translate, which would you chose?

I always thought "Y" was a spectacularly stupid choice for Rotate.

Surrealist.
08-20-2015, 12:16 AM
lol well we are not talking about what is the best choices for shortcuts. QWERTY is a keyboard standard that goes back a ways because of the location across the top keys. Thing is, not everyone in 3D world follows it exactly. Some not at all.

We are talking about being able to adopt a new set of keys that are not familiar.

So if I am learning new apps that are new to me, which one am I most likely to remember if I came from, for example, Maya?

XCV
THY
WER With one reversed (Zbrush)

or simply one that I don't have to memorize:

GSR respectively for the actual names of the tools and what they do. Grab Scale and Rotate.

I am going to lean toward Zbrush and Blender here. Zbrush is a bit of a mind bender to have one of them reversed. Was it so hard to make it exactly the same as Maya? Nothing conflicts. So from this perspective, as a new app to learn where the keys are different, Blender wins.

jeric_synergy
08-20-2015, 12:21 AM
I agree.

I haven't tussled w/Blender in a while, but, generally, with all software but I THINK with 3d s/w in particular, there's a certain RHYTHM of operation that must be internalized before you can judge whether or not an interface is well done or not. Watching a RH or RR tutorial video makes the pretty clear IMO. RHYTHM.

IIRC any issue I had w/Blender involved searching for which of the zillion panels actually had the info I needed at any time. I'd say that C4d wins that particular battle over everyone. LW isn't even in the running, since there can be hidden dependencies and constraints through out a given scene and you don't have a hope in hell of finding them.

spherical
08-20-2015, 12:31 AM
or simply one that I don't have to memorize:

GSR respectively for the actual names of the tools and what they do. Grab Scale and Rotate.

Yeah, well, Grab and Rotate aren't exactly complements of each other, handedness notwithstanding. Grab means to Hold. Period. Movement is not implied in the least. Rotate, however, means exactly that. Which is to say that Grab must come before Move or Rotate or nothing happens. Grab is a dumb choice of label for that function. Yes, having the key on the opposite hand is nice, but you're both completely ignoring southpaws, here. Give 'em at least something that works better for them... once in a great while!

Heh, in another world, GSR has a totally different meaning. Let's just say that you don't want to be caught having it at the wrong time.

visualbug
08-20-2015, 01:01 AM
Meh.
I only pointed out that there are some common standards that blender ignores. Its badly designed UIX. But the toolset itself is feature rich no doubt, I use the fluid sim a lot. Camera tracker is handy so is the FREE part.


Here's some statistics from the leading resource of 3d models on the net. Granted I've only earned 50k cumulative for several years so its not good to dedicate your time creating models solely for selling imho, but it is a good indication of the buy and sell rate of file formats. Giimann has half a million earnings from max format afaik.
There's no Modo in the list out of a possible 50+ formats sold for any 90 day period. Blender is not in the top ten.
The fact that lightwave and softimage is in the top 10 tells you something.

lightscape, what I said is not direct personal to anyone, of course blender cannot be compare to the big old dogs of 3d software on the market, in the future? maybe, but yes, blender is not perfect, but as a free tool with all the features, is the best, and this is why we love it, this thread is not about how bad is blender in the market or how good is about of :

"what LW group can learn from it, or benefits for lightwave" as I said, is not the best, but millions of people are using it, I think lightwave can benefit from it with official support..........
blender ..................with no funds $$ no big company behind (like newtek or autodesk, maxon)
just with donations of the community, and free developers power.............blender is getting better and better..........and everybody in the industry is watching................

for the UI, wait until 2016
ĻBlender 2.8 – Workflow releaseĻ
"https://code.blender.org/2015/07/blender-2-8-the-workflow-release/

I have a question for you guys:
what LW group can learn from blender, or benefits for lightwave ??

Surrealist.
08-20-2015, 01:04 AM
The name of the tool is actually Grab/Move not just Move or not just Grab. It does both, factually and literally.

But again we are kind of edging into a bit of semantics here.

And it is sidestepping the other issues which have been brought forth. It was just an aside, interesting that the keyboard shorts - in this case - actually match the names of the tools.

Aside from that in the grand scheme of things it does not make case about anything really.

All tools are different in how they are mapped on the Keyboards - overall even if there is some overlap. By the way 3D Max and Zbrush both use the same shorts for transform tools. I wonder about C4D and Houdini the other tools I don't use.

spherical
08-20-2015, 04:04 AM
Did you read the part in another thread where I have FIVE Blender installs; all dedicated to specific purposes? And, yes, in the Grand Scheme Of Things, it does make a case about something, really, when there is a disconnect in the UI design that is so very basic.

50one
08-20-2015, 04:54 AM
Agree. I love Blender but it was much more refined in the pre 2.50 era.....A good example is the demo scene of that animated "for you" short which you can find in demo files, it works on one version and doesn't work on another, problem is the non-linear development process due to nature of this, but I know other software that I will no mention:) that does similar thing, they take rookies on board as a part of their assignment to work on a plugin/feature and then they're gone after couple of weeks and the feature is there - unpolished until someone else eventually pick where one's left or not....

safetyman
08-20-2015, 05:38 AM
Well, on topic this time, I think LW could learn a lot of things from Blender:

I absolutely love Blender's non-destructive nature; the modifiers that can be stacked, intertwined, multiplied, etc. without actually "converting" the model. Once you do an array in LW, for instance, it's set in stone.

LW has a lot of third party plugins that are (mostly) pay-for-play, whereas I use a lot of Blender addons (like SVG export, CAD tools, retopology) that are 100% free and updated frequently. Since they're mostly python scripts, they are easy to activate without having to leave the program and I can tweak them on the fly if I feel like it -- not that I'm a good python programmer or anything. There's even a Sketchup importer that comes in handy sometimes which means I don't have to have Sketchup installed.

Built in compositing, video editing, camera tracking, sculpting (which is actually good and doesn't get a lot of credit), not to mention the grease pencil and texture painting. Not saying that LW needs all those things (well, native sculpting would be nice), but in Blender they're there if I need them without launching another program.

If you want the truth, the only thing that keeps me using LW is the renderer, and that is quickly becoming a non-factor, since Blender now has Renderman support.

Surrealist.
08-20-2015, 07:01 AM
Did you read the part in another thread where I have FIVE Blender installs; all dedicated to specific purposes? And, yes, in the Grand Scheme Of Things, it does make a case about something, really, when there is a disconnect in the UI design that is so very basic.

Yeah I got that. Pretty cool. What are you using it for mainly?

Also I am not entirely sure I understood your last comment, so I did not want to go off on a tangent. But I was talking just about the naming of one shortcut when I was mentioning the "grand scheme of things". Maybe that was not clear.

But anyway I think if I understand you, from your point of view the interface has come disconnects. Is that correct? There are a few things that annoy me as well.

What would you suggest from your experience, to change?

Surrealist.
08-20-2015, 07:08 AM
If you want the truth, the only thing that keeps me using LW is the renderer, and that is quickly becoming a non-factor, since Blender now has Renderman support.

I think for a lot of people this is true. For me there are two main areas to do with character animation that keep me away from both Blender and Lightwave and that is mocap editing and general dyanamics like hair and cloth. I know my way around cloth in both Blender and LightWave and Maya is just miles ahead. Even ahead of Syflex (which I used in XSI). On the mocap side I am spoiled with MotionBuilder.

Those are the biggies for me. The other would be instancing which Blender still does not have.

But I do find the modeling in Blender to still be very good with those modifiers you mentioned. Though Max is starting to look good as well.

I'd really like to see LightWave get modeler love. It would be nice to model there again. There are some aspects of it that I do like.

tischbein3
08-20-2015, 04:31 PM
Then it would be M....
Yes, would be more logical, but as said before it wouldn't be in vincinity of your left hand rest pose.
This is a bit difficult to explain, especially coming from another language,
but I do actually like lw and blender actually spreading out the keys,
on the left side of the keyboard so you automatically keep your left hand more on the 10 finger system standard position,
providing you better access to other often used shortcuts inbetween (like extrude etc), while using WER subconsciously shifts your left hand rest postion more
to the top left of the keyboard. But this might be only me getting old. :)

Chris S. (Fez)
08-20-2015, 05:08 PM
T, Y, H in conjunction with the zoom/pan/roll navigation keys and A/shift-A works for me. All easily accessible with one hand.

With hot-keys and new tools like Transform and the 3rd Powers suite and well organized shift-ctrl-click menus, Lightwave can be extremely fast.

jwiede
08-20-2015, 06:45 PM
T, Y, H in conjunction with the zoom/pan/roll navigation keys and A/shift-A works for me. All easily accessible with one hand.

"QWER" (q=sel/w=move/e=rot/r=scale) is consistently used by many other 3D packages, at this point. That convention has actually become quite widespread across 3D apps.

If LW wants to continue to offer an "LW keyboard mapping" shortcut preset, that's fine, but for new users or those constantly switching apps, having a shortcut preset offering the QWER convention would be highly beneficial, and it should probably become the default as well. Lightwave cannot afford to continue ignoring these de facto conventions / workflow standards, they have a real, negative impact on how Lightwave is initially perceived by new customers, and their absence slows user uptake/adaptation.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-20-2015, 07:33 PM
Agreed John.

I have a Logitech gaming keyboard with a mode for Max, Modo and Lightwave so that they have essentially the same hotkeys. No more fighting Lightwave-instilled muscle memory...highly recommended.

lightscape
08-20-2015, 07:59 PM
lol. Nice try.

That is a statistic that does not apply. That is model sales file format from what I suppose is, Turbosquid or some such?



Ofcourse it does. When companies don't use blender as an application you have to wonder why. Its free yet companies don't use it. What could be the reason? Its free. Why is the industry(not indie crap) not hugging blender? Its free.

The sale of a file format is a very significant equation. A lot of professional studios buy assets for their pipeline. In our case and all the companies we work with we would rather buy existing assets, modify them, etc. Its more cost effective than paying someone 50 to 100 bucks an hour to model for days to create the same asset.
Ofcourse these studios don't seem to buy blender format. Why is that? Its free. :D
Its not as prolific as blender users claim it to be.

Studios buy for the software they are using. No surprise max, maya, c4d are up there with usage. Lightwave is actually pretty healthy to be in the top ten.

The million dollar question. Why don't pro studios use blender more? Its free.
Its the whole UIX. Not just the interface, the buttons, etc. UIX...

hdace
08-20-2015, 08:56 PM
I think for a lot of people this is true. For me there are two main areas to do with character animation that keep me away from both Blender and Lightwave and that is mocap editing and general dyanamics like hair and cloth. I know my way around cloth in both Blender and LightWave and Maya is just miles ahead. Even ahead of Syflex (which I used in XSI). On the mocap side I am spoiled with MotionBuilder.

Those are the biggies for me. The other would be instancing which Blender still does not have.

But I do find the modeling in Blender to still be very good with those modifiers you mentioned. Though Max is starting to look good as well.

I'd really like to see LightWave get modeler love. It would be nice to model there again. There are some aspects of it that I do like.


Okay, now I'll make my list. It's funny that safetyman is only around for the renderer 'cause I gave that up over a year ago in favor of Octane. So what are the biggies keeping me with LW? RHiggit!, of course! Neither of you guys mentioned that. Okay, I know Maya's CA is "superior" but RHiggit's fbx/mocap solution is fantastic. It makes excellent mocap editing possible, and I've taught myself how to use MotionMixer for mocap editing too (not the intended purpose, but works a treat). I'm getting fantastic hair dynamics with LW's implementation of Bullet, so no need for Maya or Blender there. I've taught myself to use a couple of expressions in conjunction with Bullet's gravity envelopes to help control long hair when people are walking. Really works well. Lack of decent ClothFX in LW is a pain. Bullet should help there but it doesn't.

And our current project would be impossible without instancing. It must be really hard to implement 'cause Blender really needs it and it still doesn't always work properly in LW.

erikals
08-20-2015, 11:07 PM
RHiggit's fbx/mocap solution is fantastic

i'll have to give that a second look... (!)

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

Surrealist.
08-21-2015, 12:32 AM
The million dollar question. Why don't pro studios use blender more? Its free.
Its the whole UIX. Not just the interface, the buttons, etc. UIX...

UIX by definition is the overall user experience to do with the interface as far as I understand it. Maybe you are using another definition? I see it as completely separate from the tool set. For instance Zbrush great tools horrible UIX.

Are we not on the same page with this?

Because I fully agree with the rest of your post. I just don't get the last part. But maybe it is a disagreement on terms.

All I am trying to say is it is not the UIX by my definition that is stopping Blender. I have trained quite a few artists in it and it never came up as a large issue in my studio. But I only used Blender in the areas where I could and the tools make sense. And that was Modeling and UV mapping which I did a lot of at my studio. So it made no sense to use Maya LT.

From my own experience with both apps I could make an educated guess as to why studios don't use Blender for animation. Same reasons I wouldn't and don't.

I highly doubt it is because of the UIX. No one has actually proven that either which is strange that people keep saying it all over the place with "authority".

Anyway, I can only give my direct experience as a reason.

If you have another experience I can respect that.

Surrealist.
08-21-2015, 02:35 AM
Okay, now I'll make my list. It's funny that safetyman is only around for the renderer 'cause I gave that up over a year ago in favor of Octane. So what are the biggies keeping me with LW? RHiggit!, of course! Neither of you guys mentioned that. Okay, I know Maya's CA is "superior" but RHiggit's fbx/mocap solution is fantastic. It makes excellent mocap editing possible, and I've taught myself how to use MotionMixer for mocap editing too (not the intended purpose, but works a treat). I'm getting fantastic hair dynamics with LW's implementation of Bullet, so no need for Maya or Blender there. I've taught myself to use a couple of expressions in conjunction with Bullet's gravity envelopes to help control long hair when people are walking. Really works well. Lack of decent ClothFX in LW is a pain. Bullet should help there but it doesn't.

And our current project would be impossible without instancing. It must be really hard to implement 'cause Blender really needs it and it still doesn't always work properly in LW.

I think a lot of it has to do with timing in my case. When LightWave 11 came around. I upgraded but at that point, At the time the RH tools were not as developed as they are now and bullet soft dynamics was not even in LW yet.

At the time I was planning to balance Messiah, Blender and Lightwave in some way. But out of frustration in trying to get the basic things working as I wanted, robust dynamics and character tools I wound up just upgrading to Softimage where I got all of that and more in one app. A year after that I moved on to Maya and MotionBuilder. Just timing for me all the way around. It would not make sense to go backward in my case. The tools I have do the job well.

In the meantime these other tools have become more advanced. It is hard to say what my decision would have been back then had they all been available in this way in LightWave as it is now. Another factor is the reality that the entire software landscape has changed since then. Modo Indie, Houdni Indie, Maya LT, Blender's improvements.... on and on.

But I do agree there is attraction to LightWave as a good all around package for a lot of people. It has a lot to offer along with a select amount of plugins to fill specific needs.

magiclight
08-21-2015, 05:18 AM
When companies don't use blender as an application you have to wonder why. Its free yet companies don't use it. What could be the reason?

Nothing strange with this, it's the same reason other companies choose expensive software, they do not trust free software, they want to pay for software, they want to have a support number to call if they get in trouble, they want to have someone in charge of support, professional companies almost never choose free software for that simple reason, even when free software is available with support contracts they often have problems convincing "professional" customers to buy it, so the problem is actually that the software is free.

hdace
08-21-2015, 08:08 AM
Same reason studios don't usually use Hackintoshes. But they're handy for smalltimers like me.

visualbug
08-21-2015, 02:09 PM
before 2.5x update to blender......nobody was talking about blender.................

nowadays every forum in every 3d and vfx company forum are talking about blender.............

so this means: is working!

blender little by little, step by step is improving, and everybody here knows that is a matter of time, with the fast development blender process, we will talk more about blender.....I give you 5 years and we will talk a lot more about this little "free as a beer" software........

reading good comments about "cosmos laundromat or gooseberry" new blender short film in siggraph:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from one of the artist beorn leonard:

So far the praise has been high. Meeting all the people at Siggraph, visiting DreamWorks and Pixar and hearing all the overwhelmingly positive comments was a very rewarding experience as an artist. Also, I've been contacted out of the blue by acquaintances who are unconnected with the industry to congratulate me on being involved in the project.

This movie has been a success in terms of reaching an audience of people who like animation that is different from the mainstream while still maintaining high production values. The main comment I have heard goes along the lines of "that was awesome, I want to see more!"
It has also lifted the profile of Blender significantly, particularly among industry professionals. Many visitors to the booth at Siggraph at first couldn't believe that it was all done in Blender.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

why LW group not organize a 3d short film and sponsor it? this can be nice...........and this is blender system works, every short film, is for improving the software on the fly, the new tools that you see and use in blender is improved, added or created in the short film productions.............

LW group can find a lot of bugs, improve the software, create new tools that are need it in the production of one short film.............win - win....

Surrealist.
08-21-2015, 09:14 PM
Well you know, the initial reason Stuart and Allen started creating the apps which became LightWave was because they wanted to make movies. Not like we have some connection, I was just some random guy who ran into Allen Hastings and he was gracious and candid. This was at a show back in LA around 1995 up at Universal. I ran into him on the show room floor. But anyway I was just thanking him because LW helped me make my first short film. He said he loved that kind of feedback because he was originally just a guy who wanted to make films and that was what got them working on those apps in the beginning.

Blender was originally an in-house production tool and still is. Only the business model has changed.

Should LW 3D Group be making films in its current form?

I am sure that will spark debate. :)

pinkmouse
08-22-2015, 04:33 AM
...LW group can find a lot of bugs, improve the software, create new tools that are need it in the production of one short film.............win - win....

Indeed, but that rather depends on them talking to the user base, something they show a remarkable reluctance to do. ;)

ianr
08-22-2015, 04:49 AM
YTo take up Richard should LW3DG be making films

A) a higher Hi Rez finished standard of Content
should supplied, that will attract new blood or
old returning blood.
B) too much lo- rez Content can be under -welming.

C) For example the Rob & Lino gig with the Elvis
Blue bunny & song That should have been packaged
up with sound for Content inclusion.

LW3d G must produce Standout content that is the way,
talking to asset producers to get scene authorisation to
use as finished Content inclusion after film/ or T V release.

This happended before then Content went through a
cartoon biased phase.

Slick finished content with mp.4 packaged scenes
is the way forward for Marketing, not a begging
bowl to users twice a year !

brent3d
08-22-2015, 05:23 AM
YTo take up Richard should LW3DG be making films

A) a higher Hi Rez finished standard of Content
should supplied, that will attract new blood or
old returning blood.
B) too much lo- rez Content can be under -welming.

C) For example the Rob & Lino gig with the Elvis
Blue bunny & song That should have been packaged
up with sound for Content inclusion.

LW3d G must produce Standout content that is the way,
talking to asset producers to get scene authorisation to
use as finished Content inclusion after film/ or T V release.

This happended before then Content went through a
cartoon biased phase.

Slick finished content with mp.4 packaged scenes
is the way forward for Marketing, not a begging
bowl to users twice a year !

Totally agree. Focus on TV and film examples for content and throw in some awesome Anime. That's what interested me originally, everyone remember the Blade Runner type scene sample from 5.6 I believe? It was exciting to see back then.

lightscape
08-22-2015, 07:00 AM
UIX by definition is the overall user experience to do with the interface as far as I understand it. Maybe you are using another definition? I see it as completely separate from the tool set. For instance Zbrush great tools horrible UIX.


Its the whole thing. Not just the ui, the eyecandy, etc. Its the workflow, the logic, the usability.
I did say the toolset in blender is great. I use the fluidsim and camera tracker which lw doesn't even have.
Zbrush got extremely lucky. It started out with little competition. By the time mudbox and 3dcoat were developing rapidly, zbrush was already established and powerful. Doesn't mean it has good uix. Its horrible.
Blender is not as lucky as zbrush. I doubt blender will get a significant chunk of maya and 3dmax seats in studios. Totally different way of doing basic things for people to accept blender.

Surrealist.
08-22-2015, 07:25 AM
Great So, what then would you do to improve Blender and make it something that is "accepted" in your estimation?

What specific tool features are missing exactly? And how do they compare exactly to the tools you think are being used in "the industry"?

Comparatively, what specific interface or UIX aspects are missing? Specifics as to what should be where and how it should work and specifically how does this differentiate from, say Maya or 3D Max, whichever you are most familiar with?

And how would changing this affect Blender's acceptance?

erikals
08-22-2015, 07:34 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aIA2LaB2Iw

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

safetyman
08-22-2015, 07:38 AM
Nothing strange with this, it's the same reason other companies choose expensive software, they do not trust free software, they want to pay for software, they want to have a support number to call if they get in trouble, they want to have someone in charge of support, professional companies almost never choose free software for that simple reason, even when free software is available with support contracts they often have problems convincing "professional" customers to buy it, so the problem is actually that the software is free.

I have to disagree here. My company (which is rather large) doesn't care if Blender is free or not... they only care about results; what does the end product look like? FOSS is actually encouraged as a solution because it saves the end users (customers) money. Just because Blender is free doesn't make it less of a product than any other tool that I use. I'm given kudos for saving the company from having to shell out thousands of dollars for seats each month.

erikals
08-22-2015, 07:45 AM
also see >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWacQrEcMHk

safetyman
08-22-2015, 07:45 AM
Its the whole thing. Not just the ui, the eyecandy, etc. Its the workflow, the logic, the usability.
I did say the toolset in blender is great. I use the fluidsim and camera tracker which lw doesn't even have.
Zbrush got extremely lucky. It started out with little competition. By the time mudbox and 3dcoat were developing rapidly, zbrush was already established and powerful. Doesn't mean it has good uix. Its horrible.
Blender is not as lucky as zbrush. I doubt blender will get a significant chunk of maya and 3dmax seats in studios. Totally different way of doing basic things for people to accept blender.

I could care less if Blender takes market share away from AD. It works great for what I need to do and the Blender community is far more active than people give it credit for. I still don't hear any reasonable examples of the shortcomings you mention. It's easy to say that Blender has a "totally different way of doing things" but that's a very subjective statement as has been mentioned before. You said that Zbrush's UIX is horrible, and I agree, but it has a strong user base. Same is true for Blender whether you recognize it or not. Seats in studios isn't the end-all of it's user base, however, no potential studio employer will laugh you out of an interview because you know how to use Blender... it's one more tool in an arsenal and it shows versatility.

HarverdGrad
08-22-2015, 08:52 AM
At first, I found the Blender UI very confusing.. but after I learned some basics- I'm starting to finally get it & feel comfortable with it. The thing that makes Blender great for me is that there is an enormous, active community- so any questions I've asked have been asked before so that answer is right there via Google. Seeing the work coming out of it (via the BlenderNation Twitter Feed), is inspiring. I'm excited for it's future :thumbsup:

On a side note, I'm also digging Cycles with CUDA. It's nice to be rendering frames on my laptop while browsing and not getting slowdown because the CPU is rarely above 20-30%, while my Nvidia 970m is at 98%.

tischbein3
08-22-2015, 09:16 AM
also see >

I don't think ribbons will actually help users coming from another application to really get into blender. Also as he stated in the first video you posted
a lot is actually flawed. Basically the ribbon approach was actually tried in blender pre 2.5: The button window with a horizontal layout.
This was more or less skipped for two reasons: First a vertical list is easier to read (like lw's interface), secondly a lot of features were reduced to a limited set
of options since adding them would introduce horizontal AND vertical scrolling. Also he states that since we all have 16:9 monitors, this would
not introduce scrolling, I think its actually the opposite, you loose valuable y-direction space by introducing a permanent toolbar.
As for preset based workflow, I'm all in (for all 3d applications I've used), but again I think his ribbon approach would fail on a greater amount of presets.

One of blender base UI philosophies is the non-modal approach / hiding as little as possible for the user.
This IS, undoubtly very confusing for new users, but pay off on the long run, especially if you are using it in combination with a tablet.
And yes, although Andrew states it as a negative element, the abillity / to shape blenders layout to the task you are doing is
imho its greatest strength.
Is it better or worser than lw ? Don't know, different for sure, but I think LW UI is pretty good and well organized for what it
currently can do.

(BTW: Not saying blender UI isn't flawed, for example 3d view widgets for tools like bending, interactive creation of objects, etc are imho missing.)

ianr
08-22-2015, 09:37 AM
Thank You Brent3d,

In the time of Lightwave Magazines, Stand-Out Content was there.

You could see Bab-5 in one season then get a Proper informative scene to break down

in season two . I have said elsewhere, NO ONE blew up a space cruiser like MOJO

in Bab 5 before. All the weight & gravitas he put into it directly effected all Star-Trek battles!

Afterwards all this was in the Magazines, thanks to Ron Thornton & the producers.

SO WHY DOES NOT THIS TV/FILM LW CONTENT RELATIONSHIP STILL OCCUR.?

Give them some beauty shots after FULL release for fledgling learners to emulate.

That is what LW3G Marketing should doing apart from issuing slick soundbites?

On a private matter it sticks in my Craw that Pre-Vis Juggernaut/Promship for

Ridley's last Outing was not done in LW & Turbulence, it should have been.

Sorry to bend topic, but these are very important issues to grow any product.

It ain't Rocket science, but that was Rocket science.!!

erikals
08-22-2015, 10:49 AM
On a private matter it sticks in my Craw that Pre-Vis Juggernaut/Promship for
Ridley's last Outing was not done in LW & Turbulence, it should have been.

totally agree, building the ship at least.
i looked everywhere on the web though to see what app it was modeled in.

this is where my LightWave / Rounding request comes into play.
you can't model hard models fast without a proper Rounding tool...
like i said > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY3jolkANKg

we do have LWcad though, so might get that one later on...

visualbug
08-22-2015, 11:13 AM
This is why LW Group need to produce a short film with LW pro users:
you are not seeing the most important part, improve lightwave, bug fixing, adding tools that really the users/workflow need/want, this is why blender is supported by his users..this is why I donate money every month....AND this is why the development is soo fast in blender.

when blender foundation create a short film: is a team work coordinated with artist AND developers, IN THE SAME ROOM: artist are creating the short film, developers are fixing the software, is a direct feedback, faster development, lets say a team of 10 people, 7 artists and 3 developers full time for 3 to 6 months...the artists are users, anyone can be part of it, you just need to send your demoreel...and the production team will choose you. any talented user.

if LWG just add a ship in the LW content....Wow soo nice but....you will miss the MAIN GOAL: that is improve and bug tracking/fixing in LW adding new tools....fixing the workflow, etc...this will never occur,

We don't care really about the blender short films, we care that every short finished, we have a better blender, bugs fixed (a lot of them), new tools, in less than 6 months ;)

Examples:
when blender added a camera tracking? **when they produce the short film "tears of Steel" vfx with real actors.......
when blender added Hair and Fur?? :: **when they produced the short : "Big, Buck Bunny".
Gooseberry (Cosmos Laundromat): goals: improve cycles, sims, hair and fur dynamics and more......
as you see, EVERY SHORT FILM HAS A GOAL IN IT...IMPROVE THE SOFTWARE.

Hitfilm vfx software, nobody knew about this software until they create a short film:
everybody just was blown away:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QoNouEfjuo&index=2&list=PL97076A303252BE5B


YOU NEED TO SEE THE BIG PICTURE HERE...........
better software, faster and direct development, community involved in every step of the process, live webinars showcasing whats going on in the short film, like a reality show, is a marketing machine.....AND A SHORT FILM SHOWCASING WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH THE SOFTWARE, MARKETING, SOCIAL MEDIA, what you are fixing improving, ETC ;) this is the new way to connect with your users.......

LW is famous with TV series VFX production....................LW Group need to produce a short film for the target users

ianr
08-24-2015, 08:43 AM
Nicely put together Vis Bug.

Can you now map this post, map it on to a sub-div poly ,
fold into a paper glider mesh.. instance it many times.
Then spline path them to photo- bomb LW3DG's
marketing window & partly fill it up like a invasion
of reminders of how to do the job?
With luck someone there will read your sense !

jeric_synergy
08-24-2015, 09:26 AM
I >do< like the idea of the devs being in the same room as a bunch of production artists-- they'd see the pain first hand. 8~

In the subject line, does "take from" mean "steal ideas"? 'Cuz I'm ALL FOR THAT. My knowledge of Blender could hardly be less, but the idea of a persistent user-snapped Action Center really appeals. How could we make it better? Maybe numbered/named instances with one click access from a list?

Chernoby
08-24-2015, 10:38 AM
I >do< like the idea of the devs being in the same room as a bunch of production artists-- they'd see the pain first hand. 8~

In the subject line, does "take from" mean "steal ideas"? 'Cuz I'm ALL FOR THAT. My knowledge of Blender could hardly be less, but the idea of a persistent user-snapped Action Center really appeals. How could we make it better? Maybe numbered/named instances with one click access from a list?

"take from"... "steal ideas"... tomato, tomato. Did Zuckergerg take from or steal Facebook from that other social media idea those two dudes paid him to develop? Did Steve Jobs take from or steal the Unix kernel? All things are up for debate. :D

visualbug
08-24-2015, 07:05 PM
;) jajaja is a good idea!

- - - Updated - - -


Nicely put together Vis Bug.

Can you now map this post, map it on to a sub-div poly ,
fold into a paper glider mesh.. instance it many times.
Then spline path them to photo- bomb LW3DG's
marketing window & partly fill it up like a invasion
of reminders of how to do the job?
With luck someone there will read your sense !

+1 is a good idea jaja

visualbug
08-24-2015, 07:09 PM
I >do< like the idea of the devs being in the same room as a bunch of production artists-- they'd see the pain first hand. 8~

In the subject line, does "take from" mean "steal ideas"? 'Cuz I'm ALL FOR THAT. My knowledge of Blender could hardly be less, but the idea of a persistent user-snapped Action Center really appeals. How could we make it better? Maybe numbered/named instances with one click access from a list?

This is nothing new, this is named "user testing" every company in the world use this...........................even Anomalia have a short film program every year when artist like 10 or 12 get in the same room to produce a short film, learning and taking classes to improve animation..........

in 3d this is Called "Tech Demo" for maya, max, unreal, they do the same: they get together and produce a short film or animation, or test different tools..........LW Group know this, nothing is new under the sun, my friend..........

Surrealist.
08-25-2015, 12:33 AM
Well where is the funding going to come from? Audodesk as deeper pockets. And the Blender films raise money both before and after and have large budgets with artists brought in from outside and paid handsomely for months on end. Where does the budget from a LW film come?

ianr
08-25-2015, 09:40 AM
Sell prepaid tickets & credit roll angel calls + talk to a couple of big cheeses in La la land
for print release backing. If its sexy enough,but 'ah there's the Rub'
LW3DG could run it past these moguls they have worked for, if a script held promise.

But hey didn't Iron Sky get mullered by the wrong release deal ?

i' m kind of thinking that its not their schitk, now as i write,BUT getting film builds
back into future releases is a doable,as in my previous post on this thread.

jeric_synergy
08-25-2015, 10:05 AM
Nah, I don't think that's right: An ambitious SHORT, done in house, would give them PLENTY of 'food-for-thought' as to which direction to take LW, and which of the "little stuff" need to be addressed.

And by little stuff, REAL little stuff (not where threads usually go) I mean niceties like "arrow incrementing numeric fields" and such (if legally possible/damnYouAdobe).

visualbug
08-25-2015, 03:33 PM
Well where is the funding going to come from? Audodesk as deeper pockets. And the Blender films raise money both before and after and have large budgets with artists brought in from outside and paid handsomely for months on end. Where does the budget from a LW film come?

Funding?? well Newtek and LW Group knows where to find it, they're in the market since 1985 ;)
is not my business..........I am just giving ideas, they will do what ever they want and believe to be the best for lightwave (the last few years only steps in the wrong direction......)

For example: one of the best 3d/vfx artist from my country just for "fun" or "learning" create a F#$%%ink Optimus prime and Megatron for a fan film (the project is USA base, and the work was remote, 3dmax + Arion render) because he believe in the project:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idAK1IP0DqU
http://luima.com/optimus_front_Back.jpg
http://www.luima.com/transformers-TLE/megwip003fv.jpg

How many LW pro users with talent in this business wish to be part of a project like this? and they are only doing Archviz to pay bills? let me tell you, I can participate for free ;) (note: all blender shorts are in house BUT, they receive a lot of help from the community with props modeling, development etc)

My question is: how many lightwave users wants to support a project led by Rob Powers ? support and improve lightwave? and with this quality?
LW Group cannot see what lightwave needs inside an office, they need to be and to DO, to Listen, imagine if LW Group AND Octane produce and support something like this?

NOTE: the main goal is NOT the short film, the main goal HAVE TO BE: improve and fix lightwave. AND THEY NEED TO BE CLEAR AND TRANSPARENT WITH USERS, THIS CANNOT BE A "SECRET" as I can see what they are doing now...........ROAD MAPS, PLANS AND GOALS.............

Surrealist.
08-25-2015, 04:46 PM
Great idea to make films. The idea just needs more grounding in certain realities that are standing in the way. The main one being money. It is not the same set up as Blender. So it really can not apply here in a lot of ways. The spirit of it is in the right place though. :)

LW 3D Group has been keeping to the silent non-transparent mode for a long time. And we have all called for them to interact and they just don't.

I think they know what is needed. I would not go as far as saying films are vital to this. I don't even think that about Blender. I think it is a conflict of interest. But it is nice. Problem is, they have a tendency to limp between film projects. And now even they are seeing this as a drawback and have decided to take time off to get some things done on the software. In the past they have not done as well with this. Leaving things half baked. And Ton sees this, and has decided to change the way they do things. It is just two different purposes. And yes, some things to cross nicely. But I would not say vital.

An open beta and also some kind of interaction would be as good or better. But they don't seem to want to even do that.

visualbug
08-25-2015, 06:49 PM
"The main one being money"
This is why everything is wrong with LW Group....of course! everything is money and companies need money...."BUT" this is what we have now: lightwave, chronosculpt and nevronmotion, because they want money, quick, now you have 3 apps that you cannot update, or maintenance, or fix them...........because they were looking for quick and dirty money.......now they don't have money to maintenance-improve 3 software instead focus all resources improving lightwave .....

The money nowadays is in "user loyalty" "User experience" "Users that care about the software, participate, and see where is going" this is why Apple is Apple, the users love their products, and we know APPLE products are overpriced and under-powered on purpose, users don't care! they will buy it no matter what: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9JQsXPd41U

Loyal users are more valuable than quick and dirty money my friends...........loyal users are for life.....but I can see here, old LW users still love lightwave but they got tired of waiting..............for LW Group.....to talk to them........to say " Hi " they just move on..............

Surrealist.
08-27-2015, 01:59 AM
Believe me I hear what you are saying.

I think you will get further with it by not making assumptions about the development team. And by also giving them some credit. They are working hard and doing things as they see fit.

You just have to ask yourself how much you want to see this happen. Arguing philosophy about money I can guarantee you will not work. Especially if it is characterizing them in a bad way, which is how it comes off.

Coming up with a solid plan to raise money for the project - if this is even possible - will go a lot further.

visualbug
08-27-2015, 03:23 AM
Believe me I hear what you are saying.

I think you will get further with it by not making assumptions about the development team. And by also giving them some credit. They are working hard and doing things as they see fit.

You just have to ask yourself how much you want to see this happen. Arguing philosophy about money I can guarantee you will not work. Especially if it is characterizing them in a bad way, which is how it comes off.

Coming up with a solid plan to raise money for the project - if this is even possible - will go a lot further.

Don't get me wrong, this is not about the development team or credit or how hard they are working, this is about users (we) communication with us, everything is about money and a company needs to produce money to support further development and to pay employees......I am talking about how we together with LW Group can makes lightwave better, This is not about developers, is about everybody. How you can you get more users to buy lightwave if you don't take care of your actual users? I know that users are THE MOST IMPORTANT Element in any business....NOT MONEY.............user engagement and loyalty.........love for your users........if you want money go to invest in stock market...........people use LW no money machines.....

If you communicate with your users, the one giving you support, promoting LW everywhere, they are the one that needs to know about where lightwave is going, I think after CORE everything just went wrong..................nobody is paying ME to spent my time "Thinking in raising money for LW Group" and I don't have to beg nobody to give my money or support a company that doesn't care for their users, with a simple "Thank you for your Idea" can be enough to make us happy.....if they do not care about US the users, I don't care about them..........

I remember Messiah:Studio, Mr. Fori, doing "specials/subscriptions" or "Bundles" get the best price for an awesome software before is too late!.............and eight month later nobody knows where is Mr. Fori or Messiah:Studio...................LW is going the same path............60 days demo! or special 3rdpowers bundles" yeeee......

LW cannot compete anymore, MODO is better, Maya is light years ahead, cinema4d is the king in mograph, blender have more features that LW can dream off.............LW was the best in low budget tv series...........LW can have all the features, but without care for the users, are worthless to me.

I can buy any software in the market, I had NO IDEA what I was thinking on buying Lightwave.......................maybe because of the great community here in the forum and the warn welcome......but too bad that I never researched the forum before..........................If LW Group do not care about me (a user) I will not care about THEM, thanks guys for letting me know before spend more time/money learning lightwave..................and this is a great community, just the wrong company................

Nothing personal here, this post is for Mr. Rob and the dream team of LW group that are still living in the 90's, in the glory times of LW. Nowadays WE as a users ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT in any business (pay some user research and learn something, you need it if you want to continue in this business). Sincerely, another user that is living lightwave behind. Note. if somebody wants to buy lightwave 11.6 can pay me $100 dollars + license transfer fee. BYE

Thanks guys you are an awesome community here. Sorry I am a little upset, I don't know how you can support a software/company that treats you as crap.

Surrealist.
08-27-2015, 04:11 AM
Well the thing is we have been through all of this. And I have finally come to the conclusion that it is not why I use software. There are detractors of all companies for one reason or another. Me. I use software if it has tools I need. And for no other reason. How the company treats its users is completely separate to me. I did not always feel this way though.

How large or small the company is does not worry me too much either. Yes it does come down to finances and what you can afford. It does for me. I don't have endless pockets. I scrapped the barrel to get the software I have.

So for LightWave, as far as I am concerned there is only one thing to do and that is wait and watch. See what they do.

I can't tell you what to do or how to spend your money or how to react. I am just giving you my opinion of how I would handle it in your situation.

If you want changes, ask politely, don't get upset. If you have ideas present them in a responsible way that actually leads to solutions.

If LightWave works for you, great. keep using it. If not, I would say it is fairly resonable to expect that it won't in the near future. It is not a wise gamble on any software to buy into it thinking it will morph into your needs.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-27-2015, 06:36 AM
Thanks guys you are an awesome community here. Sorry I am a little upset, I don't know how you can support a software/company that treats you as crap.

Sorry, I must have missed something. How did Newtek treat you poorly?

visualbug
08-27-2015, 03:04 PM
Well the thing is we have been through all of this. And I have finally come to the conclusion that it is not why I use software. There are detractors of all companies for one reason or another. Me. I use software if it has tools I need. And for no other reason. How the company treats its users is completely separate to me. I did not always feel this way though.

How large or small the company is does not worry me too much either. Yes it does come down to finances and what you can afford. It does for me. I don't have endless pockets. I scrapped the barrel to get the software I have.

So for LightWave, as far as I am concerned there is only one thing to do and that is wait and watch. See what they do.

I can't tell you what to do or how to spend your money or how to react. I am just giving you my opinion of how I would handle it in your situation.

If you want changes, ask politely, don't get upset. If you have ideas present them in a responsible way that actually leads to solutions.

If LightWave works for you, great. keep using it. If not, I would say it is fairly resonable to expect that it won't in the near future. It is not a wise gamble on any software to buy into it thinking it will morph into your needs.

It's true, LW is just a tool
After reading a lot of post in this forums, looks that they not listen, simple. They can say: yes, no, thanks for the idea! THIS IS THE OFFICIAL LIGHTWAVE FORUM!! this is where LW users talk, and there is a feature request section in it! why? I don't say that they needs to answer me right away.....I am just reading old post and no answer. The only person that I see here from time to time is Lino and he says nothing.........

This is why I will stop thinking or giving ideas on how to improve lightwave and let them know how to listen/talk to their users, I hate to see a powerful software, that everybody knows is good, an awesome community of loyal users just migrate to other softwares unhappy..........and to see LW to go down the drain (reducing prices), just because there is not communication, This is what happens when you start studying User Experience and to see that something so simple to fix, can do wonders for a software company or can leave a company without users........so simple..........I bought LW because I know is good, I know can cover my needs........I am not expecting to have in one update the best or new features ever! no, I don't. The minimum that I am expecting from the official forum is a little communication with their users............

THIS is what I hate:
one simple developer start "for fun" creating a blender-vray add-on or plugin, Chaos group is officially supporting it. Now we have blender-vray.
another: one simple developer start "for fun" creating a blender-3Dlight (renderman) add-on or plugin, PIXAR started working on top of this plugin and now we have blender to renderman officially supported by pixar.
VS
blender have a LW plugin FOR AGES!!!! developers working for free to support LW.....is officially supported for the blender foundation,......where is LW Group? long before Cycles render, blender users where trying to use blender and LW Layout........means that they don't investigate where LW users are, a quick search on youtube can give you a lot of videos using blender-LW..............

I can continue...................you have a full market................Nvil modeler needs a LW like software to render and animate, moi3d is a modeler that wants to have a nice layout software to render, etc etc etc........but user research is NEED IT. Why you don't reach those users/developers? a little help to connect lightwave with them..............you need users, where are your users? LW group cannot compete with features, they need to makes users happy and give them what they want...............(Just quick ideas)

choose one: "which feature will give us quick money" VS "what our users WANTS and what we can develop/improve in the new version of LW"
Just think about this, which one will give more revenue to LW Group??

THIS IS not rocket science! this is just study your market! check where your users are going! hire a cheap User Researcher and you can see what I can see ;)

But LW is just a tool..................I will use it as a tool...........and wait.................quiet................and see.............no more ideas from my side,
nobody is paying me for this.................. ;)

visualbug
08-27-2015, 03:12 PM
Sorry, I must have missed something. How did Newtek treat you poorly?

When YOU as a company, not listen and don't care about your LOYAL users, what your users need, what ideas they are talking about, in the OFFICIAL FORUM, and start creating features that nobody wants/needs, they (users) are crap to you (company). Simple. You can not reach new users if your loyal users are not happy with the product.........And if you never TALK to your users, a big silent, means that you don't care. Means that they are crap to your company AND Who are the ones that buy/upgrade your product?

Surrealist.
08-27-2015, 03:15 PM
Yeah man. I totally see where you are coming from. I don't think very many people are happy about the silence. You won't find any disagreement on that here on the forums.

I think people are just tired of complaining about it now which is why you are not getting people jumping in on the rant with you. So don't think it is not because they don't understand.

Hope that helps for what it is worth. :)

jeric_synergy
08-27-2015, 06:10 PM
I don't like it much either, but when I see the stupidity and drivel people spout like g.d. geysers whenever LW3dG DOES say anything, I can certainly understand their reluctance.

Any announcement has to have a "worst possible spin" evaluation put on it before release, cuz sure as shooting some idiot will interpret it that dumb way. Who's got the time for that crap?

Chris S. (Fez)
08-27-2015, 06:16 PM
More communication would be welcome but Newtek has valid reasons to be discreet about development. They are active on social media, email a monthly news letter and just released 2015.3 along with some great summer and Siggraph specials. The LW3D group is communicating, just not in ways some users want or expect.

Most of the 2015 features are useful to me. But, yes, considering the LW group's ongoing effort to release fundamental tutorials I expect present Lightwave workflows to be valid at least for the near future. Doesn't bother me. I use Lightwave alongside Max and Modo and still end up in Modeler and Layout most days.

jwiede
08-27-2015, 08:11 PM
IWho's got the time for that crap?

Most other companies, apparently, judging by such things happening to them every bit as often, yet not causing them to go silent and abandon customer communication altogether.

hdace
08-27-2015, 08:21 PM
Last I checked Apple never says nothin' 'bout nothin'.

Wickedpup
08-27-2015, 11:04 PM
Last I checked Apple never says nothin' 'bout nothin'.
But Apple isn't "presumed dead"...... :hey:

pming
08-28-2015, 12:25 AM
Hiya!

What I don't like is the thought that NT/LWGroup got beat down, and now chooses to play the victim ALL the time. What I mean is that the did take a lot of crap from the whole CORE thing (I'm still sore about that...!), as well as other announcements.

Rather that dusting themselves off, standing up, wiping their bloodied nose and then saying: "Yeah. You got us. But we're still here! We're still going to make stuff and innovate, and if you don't like it, or think we didn't do something the right way, or if we can't implement something we said we were going to this time around.... swing away! We'll take it! Because, in the end, we're going to be stronger for it. Lightwave will be a better package in the long run". Well, they decided to stay down in the mud, hold up their hand and beg "Please! No more! We'll be quiet now! Honest!".

A bit dramatic, sure, but I hope my point gets across: LWGroup buckled. They lost their moxie. No more mojo. Now they quietly do their thing so as to not "upset anyone" if they can't deliver. Only now they are upsetting everyone. I stopped upgrading at 11.6. I'm *not* upgrading to 2015. Yes, it will cost me my "charter pricing"...but a company that says "Here's an awesome deal! You just have to buy every major release! (Disclaimer: We don't have to tell you what we're going to do, but you do have to buy regardless, or the deals off)"... is simply not something I'm willing to put up with any more. IMHO, it's virtual customer blackmail. Back when they offered the whole "Charter Upgrade Deal" from the HarcCORE thing, I made an assumption. That NT/LWGroup would let me (us) know the things they had planned. Keep me (us) informed of what they were able to do, or what may need to be pushed back to a future version. Basically, I was expecting COMMUNICATION. To just say "Give me money, or else!" is not cool. Not cool at all.

So... no more LW upgrading for me. I'm "stuck" with 11.6.3...which is ok, because it really is a pretty sweet piece of ASCI code. I can do just about everything I need to. I'm not saying I can do it easily, but I can do it. That said, I am looking for other packages of late (MODO and Blender being top), and looking for nice workflow/pipeline combos that fit my personal artistic method. I'd MUCH rather work in one package 90% of the time, only going to the unique/specific tools some other programs offer for the other 10%.

Anyway. Yeah. My 2Ē.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Lightwave. At least they aren't Autodesk!

Surrealist.
08-28-2015, 02:39 AM
I know it is not popular to go into the history of this. But there is a legacy here. And I think you have to appreciate that most of the current team is not a part of that. They have inherited it. The legacy goes back to a decision long before Core. Decision was made and action taken. The result after a split-up was another app and another company. What was left was LightWave. The app the original developers chose not to continue with - apparently.

So you have the team left behind working to pick up the pieces. And the issue these days is there may be things that they can fix and some things they just can't - yet. And those which they can fix and those which they can not might not match what is popular or most needed. So they balance that with things they can pile on to serve needs using current code or tools.

So they leaves them in a bit of a unique position. They probably feel it is too volatile of a community to interact with under these circumstances.

I'd say the guys on board now are doing the best that they can. Their decision not to communicate is a mistake in my opinion. But it is apparently how they choose to deal with it. And I can understand that, given the history.

bobakabob
08-28-2015, 03:45 PM
Has anyone here got any time to show some creative work using Lightwave and Blender? Can we actually see some examples of how the apps work together? Please? Also, I agree with Lightscape, Blender threads really should be in Third Party.

visualbug
08-28-2015, 04:05 PM
Blender has an official Add-on to lightwave, but LW Group do not care about this............blender users without LW support create a plugin (add-on) and the blender foundation is supporting it official.............

tutorial:
"A tutorial on how to export animations from Blender into Lightwave."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoWSFQnnN1s


a lot of videos with the 2 softwares:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Rrc8Q0Ow0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FI73hHobIw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZyeQZcaUKA

About 264,000 results (0.31 seconds) in google.

bobakabob
08-28-2015, 04:24 PM
Visual bug,
Thanks for that. Any reading on creative LW + Blender projects is surely helpful here.
Like many others I've found Blender's UI highly problematic (and I use ZBrush and Maya in the main without issues). As this is a LW forum I'm only interested in how these apps can complement each other in a workflow. Otherwise, I'm sorry, a lot of the stuff here comes across as speculative "blah" and should be somewhere on a Blender forum. This thread would surely be far more interesting to Lightwave users if there was discussion of specific features that would bring added value to Modeler and Layout with (and I'm not joking) specific info about which buttons to press and in what order :) Take hair for example. Can we start reading about creatively useful stuff?

Surrealist.
08-28-2015, 05:24 PM
Stuff like that should definitely go in the third party forums. This is a thread with a speculative title.

Another thing is as soon as we start talking specifics people get upset and start saying it is advertising Blender. So for people like me it is like no way to win.

People make general wide sweeping statements about Blender in a negative way, and when that is answered with specifics, it gets attacked as advertising and supporting Blender. I remember a mod stepping in on one of those threads as people were asking questions like that. And we were answering with how to's. That is just too much. Fine. It was stopped.

Then another frustrating thing is when I ask for specifics on the negative side, I get silence, because people don't have any. Seems like on that side of it people would rather just make general negative statements that they can not back up with anything of substance.

But in the rare times people can. We answer. And explain how it works and why. And soon enough. Oh now we are promoting Blender again. Can't win.

I'd much rather spend my time helping people work between the two apps, if there is an interest. Contact me. I am a wealth of information.

But no one seems to want to ask. Rather than seeing it as using Blender better to then come back with that work to LightWave it is seen as just promoting Blender.

As for coming back to LightWave there is nothing at all to talk about. FBX, OBJ and MDD are the tools of choice. (mdd both in and out of Blender by the way) Most people can figure out the rest.

If you really really want to get help with using Blender to then bring those assets into LightWave. Contact me, start a thread in 3P, I'll be glad to help. I have done it quite a bit.

And otherwise if you really really want to use Blender head on over to those forums and hit the manual. That is what I did for years.

But if you feel more comfortable about taking about it here. I don't have any issues with that - obviously.

lightscape
08-28-2015, 09:35 PM
And explain how it works and why. And soon enough. Oh now we are promoting Blender again. Can't win.


Because there is already a thread for Blender and Lightwave usage in the third party thread.
Right now there's two threads in the LW section for blender stuff that obviously is out for promoting blender and its activities.
I'm still waiting for your proof that blender is getting market penetration. Did you post any factual numbers?

Chris S. (Fez)
08-28-2015, 10:21 PM
Blender has an official Add-on to lightwave, but LW Group do not care about this.......

Newtek has limited resources. I'd much rather have the team spend time and money developing Lightwave, including continuing to expand the SDK for better integration with third party programs like Blender. If the Blender community is interested they can continue to develop their own plugin.

Surrealist.
08-29-2015, 03:59 AM
I'm still waiting for your proof that blender is getting market penetration. Did you post any factual numbers?

Sorry I missed that you asked me that seriously. I thought you were joking because you were quoting something I said while joking. Or is it rhetorical?

Well anyway without doing a whole big research project I think you could probably take .002 to .004 percent of the total Blender downloads.

http://www.blender.org/about/website/statistics/

Currently at 500K per month that is about 1-2 K per month of serious users world wide which is but a drop in the bucket overall. And we'd have to cut that at least in half to compensate for repeat users. So lets spit the difference and say 750 new users per month cut down again by the people who stick with it and lets say it is 350 new users per month who actually stick with Blender as an app.

That is being highly conservative I think.

But that gives us a ballpark figure of about 2-4K new users a year.

I don't know what the overall number of new people to 3D software is yearly. But without that data I'd venture a guess of about 3 percent of overall market share worldwide.

Which is not that much. And we already both agree on that. So no news there.

But to graph it we'd have to have more solid figures into account that neither of us have.

But you plug those figures into what I have already been pointing out in various places and you have a market share - however very small - with indications that it will be growing not lessening over time.

And if you think 3 percent is not a significant number for lets say Autodesk to consider, then we will have to agree to disagree. I think they view these things as potentially damaging in the long run and pay a lot of attention to these kinds of statistics.

Now this does not answer as to why it is as small as it is. To do that would actually take another study that reaches beyond people's opinions on the internet.

tischbein3
08-29-2015, 06:14 AM
If the Blender community is interested they can continue to develop their own plugin.

useless trivia:
Technically speaking its also the route to go: Its far easier to create lws and lwo inside of blender than trying to parse or create a blend file inside lightwave, also
since the lwsdk does not provide access to all areas of lw (like plugin settings) you would have to recreate a lws and lwo writer anyway.
Even with libraries supporting blend files its often a hit and miss situation (different versions of blender files etc, wich do load in blender but not through the libraires).
Also text or curve objects can be evaluated inside blender wich wouldn't be possible with a .blend loader without big trouble.

back to coding trying to get parented objects into lw correctly.

jeric_synergy
08-29-2015, 11:32 AM
Just to talk about LW for a second 8~: is there an actual REASON the LW sdk has always been hobbled by not being able to access various parts of the guts of LW?

I could see how at the start two youngish coders might have painted themselves into various corners, but, it's been DECADES since many users have started pleading with them to "expose everything to the sdk".

tischbein3
08-30-2015, 07:21 AM
Just to talk about LW for a second 8~: is there an actual REASON the LW sdk has always been hobbled by not being able to access various parts of the guts of LW?

Its got a lot better.
The thing is for certain stuff you need to code workarounds.
Layout interactive tools (like move rotate scale or my little transform package) was one example they fixed with lw 12: Until now it wasn't possible to open up a numeric panel for such tools in the way it was intended by the sdk . The only "hack" to do this in previous versions was to display the panel everytime you launched the tool. To realize that such workarounds are working needs some experience with the sdk. What does impress me everytime I code something in lw is, how stable lw is when you implement such stuff.

Also some functions are not documented well for various reasons. (incomplete / unstable features for example)
But overall its not that bad as it might look on the first impression.

safetyman
08-31-2015, 06:00 AM
Stuff like that should definitely go in the third party forums. This is a thread with a speculative title.

Another thing is as soon as we start talking specifics people get upset and start saying it is advertising Blender. So for people like me it is like no way to win.

People make general wide sweeping statements about Blender in a negative way, and when that is answered with specifics, it gets attacked as advertising and supporting Blender. I remember a mod stepping in on one of those threads as people were asking questions like that. And we were answering with how to's. That is just too much. Fine. It was stopped.

Then another frustrating thing is when I ask for specifics on the negative side, I get silence, because people don't have any. Seems like on that side of it people would rather just make general negative statements that they can not back up with anything of substance.

Agreed. I hear a lot of negative comments, but no hard facts and I can't understand the venom. Why is it so difficult to download a FREE app with NO INSTALL required, fire it up and play around a bit. If you don't like it, delete the directory. Done.


But in the rare times people can. We answer. And explain how it works and why. And soon enough. Oh now we are promoting Blender again. Can't win.

Amen. No one here is trying to sell anything. Someone asked a question, the Blender users here are trying to answer it and help, just like the great LW users here have always done. Blender haters come out of the woodwork, offended because someone touts a tool that can stir the pot and challenge their software of choice. If you can't back up your statements, don't state them. Saying, "The UI is horrible" or "I can't get my head around the interface" is not proof of Blender's shortcomings, and yes it does have some. So does LW as a lot of people have stated on a ton of threads around here -- it's the reason we get these Blender threads. Think about that.

Sorry for the rant. Back on topic. I don't think the LW devs care to examine Blender's good features and try to incorporate those into future LW development. A shame really, but truthfully, I don't care if they do. I use LW mainly as a compliment to Blender, not the other way around, and it's because I feel that Blender has surpassed it in many areas. I was LW's biggest supporter where I work, when other folks were using Maya and I've defended it for years on forums and user groups. I still do, but at this point, I have to change with the times. LW is quickly falling behind and it saddens me. Maybe it will turn around soon, but I can't just sit and wait.

lightscape
08-31-2015, 07:36 AM
Sorry I missed that you asked me that seriously. I thought you were joking because you were quoting something I said while joking. Or is it rhetorical?

Well anyway without doing a whole big research project I think you could probably take .002 to .004 percent of the total Blender downloads.

http://www.blender.org/about/website/statistics/

Currently at 500K per month that is about 1-2 K per month of serious users world wide which is but a drop in the bucket overall. And we'd have to cut that at least in half to compensate for repeat users. So lets spit the difference and say 750 new users per month cut down again by the people who stick with it and lets say it is 350 new users per month who actually stick with Blender as an app.


That wasn't a joke. Unless this statement of yours was a joke. :D
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?143183-Watch-for-Project-Gooseberry&p=1440341&viewfull=1#post1440341

You do realize downloads doesn't equate actual usage or actual number of users. Especially for something that is free to download. There's nothing in the industry so far that suggests blender is gaining ground. Its only on blender users mind.

Otoh the top selling 3d market has concrete facts and statistics about monthly published 3d formats by 3d artists, and monthly best selling formats bought by clients.
We're talking hundreds of thousand files being brokered in a 90 day period from AAA studios, small studios, freelance, indie hobbyist. Real money people are willing to spend for.
No blender in the top 10. Lightwave is in the top 10 of top selling format.
Top 5 if you remove obj, 3ds, fbx.
If there were a lot of blender users out there, we would be flooded by blender models(free or paid) in that 90 day cycle. That's not the case at all.

Surrealist.
08-31-2015, 02:08 PM
Yes I was completely joking. :)

lightscape
08-31-2015, 11:18 PM
Sure you were cineartist :)

safetyman
09-01-2015, 05:10 AM
Otoh the top selling 3d market has concrete facts and statistics about monthly published 3d formats by 3d artists, and monthly best selling formats bought by clients.
We're talking hundreds of thousand files being brokered in a 90 day period from AAA studios, small studios, freelance, indie hobbyist. Real money people are willing to spend for.
No blender in the top 10. Lightwave is in the top 10 of top selling format.
Top 5 if you remove obj, 3ds, fbx.
If there were a lot of blender users out there, we would be flooded by blender models(free or paid) in that 90 day cycle. That's not the case at all.

By the same token, the formats that are selling don't necessarily reflect the top software being used. The export button works no matter what sw you are using. It's just a reflection of what formats people are buying. If I want to maximize my income, it behooves me to export to the most number of formats that I can in order to cater to the most number of software users. I'm not saying Blender is in your top 10 or whatever, but you can't tell for sure by your logic. Blender can export to obj, 3ds, fbx, dae and dozens of other formats, not just .blend. If Maya or Max were all that people were using, why do those users offer obj or fbx? It's because not everyone has those programs, or even the same version. It's naive to think that Blender doesn't have a "top 10" presence on the "top selling 3d market" based on your assumptions.

lightscape
09-01-2015, 06:25 AM
You must be joking, too.

Who in their right mind would spend hundreds of green for a model that can't be used on their preferred app? That's illogical.
These people who buy max and maya format must be insane to buy proprietery formats that can't be used on other software.

Your point about obj, etc.
Its more logical that majority of 3ds, obj, fbx formats come from the most number of users, not the least.
And which software shows in the statistics are the top 5? 3dmax, maya, c4d, lightwave. They have the most logical potential of contribution. Not blender, not even modo.
Because if it were blender then there would be more blender format published and sold in the 90 day cycle that would show in the statistic. Its simple logic.

Come on safetyman, you've been promoting your use of blender in this forum for some time. Have something new.

jeric_synergy
09-01-2015, 08:35 AM
Can we turn back to what we should be asking the devs to plagiarize from Blender? That's of more interest to me.

Two things only interest me about Blender:

What we should steal;
How to use it in conjunction with Lightwave.

erikals
09-01-2015, 08:50 AM
just not sure what i would use blender for...

Modeling > nope      (LW all the way...)
Animation > nope      (though, maybe for Motion Graphics...)
Rendering > nope      (LW all the way... / or Octane...)
Tracking > nope      (still jitters...)
Fluids > nope      (Houdini Indie...)


so, wonder, how do you use Blender... ?

hdace
09-01-2015, 09:08 AM
Yes I pretty much agree with that assessment. Except I haven't tried out Fluids yet. Sort of looking forward to that. I don't have Houdini... They're not Fluids constraints, but Hot Ocean & Denis Pontonnier's water bump textures work well for a lot of things...

jeric_synergy
09-01-2015, 09:42 AM
For certain structures, the parametric modeling available in Blender would be quite efficient. It's quite freeing to adjust the number of pillars under a bridge with just a slider.

OTOH, as JoePoe keeps repeatedly proving to me, there's PLENTY of power in LWM for most things, and jumping back and forth between apps wastes a lot of time. You might have to know Blender pretty well to know which tasks are better done there than in LWM, and vice versa.

For me, it's all the UI inconsistencies that keep me looking up from LWM and thinking "Surely there's a less painful way to do this", and "WTF was the coder thinking???"

HarverdGrad
09-01-2015, 10:42 AM
You must be joking, too.

Who in their right mind would spend hundreds of green for a model that can't be used on their preferred app? That's illogical.
These people who buy max and maya format must be insane to buy proprietery formats that can't be used on other software.

Your point about obj, etc.
Its more logical that majority of 3ds, obj, fbx formats come from the most number of users, not the least.
And which software shows in the statistics are the top 5? 3dmax, maya, c4d, lightwave. They have the most logical potential of contribution. Not blender, not even modo.
Because if it were blender then there would be more blender format published and sold in the 90 day cycle that would show in the statistic. Its simple logic.

Come on safetyman, you've been promoting your use of blender in this forum for some time. Have something new.

I find SafetyMan's comments very insightful. He's always given his thoughts and been polite about it. In my mind, he only discusses Blender, in Blender relevant threads.

tischbein3
09-01-2015, 11:29 AM
Modeling > yes     (In camera modeling, retopo, (semi-) organic objects (faces, cars), weight painting..)
Animation > partly      ( had to use it for some stuff, has some quirks )
Rendering > partly     (depends on subject and task)
Tracking > nope      (you are right, still jitters, slow...syntheyes is much better)
Fluids > nope      (not found an adequate solution for it)
texture painting > maybe (currently no texture paint app is really great - they all have advantages / disadvantages)
cloth simulation > partly ( depends on subject )
hair > partly ( plan to use it more extensively, especially when the new pipeline is setup)
programming (yes)
various addons

lightscape
09-01-2015, 09:43 PM
I find SafetyMan's comments very insightful. He's always given his thoughts and been polite about it. In my mind, he only discusses Blender, in Blender relevant threads.

Not for me.
Bugzilla's had a better way of discussing blender that is related to lightwave. He doesn't post here much because he has moved on to blender and doesn't come here unless its lightwave related.
Surrealist, safetyman, etc have more posts about blender is gaining ground, everyone watch out blender is great, I taught my employees blender and its great. And all that other subtle way of not promoting blender. :D

lightscape
09-01-2015, 09:50 PM
Blender is 100% open-source. You can take the code and you can even sell it to people (maybe if they didnt realize its free).

Why dont LW devs just mine some of the great features from it like volumetric materials, mesh edit tools, sculpt mode, etc?

I think its legal to do... I could be wrong.


Lol... you're wrong.

Anyway asked and answered.
Discussing features and techniques and uses for blender its already there in the third party tread.

magiclight
09-02-2015, 01:07 AM
They already do try to sell Blender, have a look at ebay, lots of people try to sell it there ;)

But yes, the initial thread question has been answered, let the war continue at some other time and place....

safetyman
09-02-2015, 05:59 AM
I apologize if I've offended anyone, or shaken anyone's faith in LW (doubtful). Like I've said before, I've used LW for over 15 years and I've enjoyed every bit of it; I've just found something that works better for me. If you'd like, I can quit commenting on LW in these forums, but I have a hard time letting it go.

I was like a lot of you in the beginning, thinking that it was hard to use and just a silly facsimile of a 3d tool. But the more I used it, the more things I found that I liked better than LW, Max, or Maya. Despite all the folks who believe Blender is garbage and can't compete with the "big boys", I will continue to use it and enjoy it. It can compete and it does so every day. So keep ignoring it and hoping that it goes away; I believe you'll find yourself wishing you had paid it more attention. The good news is, you'll never have to pay an upgrade fee, or fork out hundreds of dollars for addons that bring it up to speed due to missing features. "Sales pitch" over.

hdace
09-02-2015, 09:34 AM
No offense taken. Please stick around. I've found this thread very illuminating and you were an important part of it!

Chernoby
09-02-2015, 06:48 PM
So to recap and conclude this thread... uhhh... what the hell have we learned from this thread again?

magiclight
09-03-2015, 01:03 AM
1. People try to sell Blender on ebay
2. Most people do not agree with other people
3. Freedom to choose is good

lightscape
09-03-2015, 03:54 AM
I believe you'll find yourself wishing you had paid it more attention. The good news is, you'll never have to pay an upgrade fee, or fork out hundreds of dollars for addons that bring it up to speed due to missing features. "Sales pitch" over.

Its good that its working for you. The fluidsim and camera tracker is working for me. But everything else in blender I don't need. In fact if there was a water sim for lw I wouldn't use blender at all.
I'm more comfortable using lightwave, modo, 3dmax and maya.

But thanks for pointing out that we should not be forking out hundreds of dollars.
Are the AD, NT, TF devs listening? :rolleyes:

Freedom to choose is good.