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unstable
07-29-2015, 08:28 AM
There are many things I like about Ligthwave. Yet it seems like every time I turn around I’m bitten by its lack of quality. Granted, I’m not an experienced modeler which is just another reason why it is important for the tools to operate the way they are supposed to. I have to redo my work enough due to my own mistakes, but I shouldn’t have to keep redoing work because the LW tools don’t perform properly. Two cases in point. 1) Did you know that you used to be able to hold down the control key to restrict movement in just one direction for the bend tool? No more, this quit working or was changed several versions ago. If you watch William Vaughn’s tutorial on how to make threads, it is working properly back in version 4 or 8 or whatever version he was using. Now it is very difficult to bend something and get it perfectly straight. You can do it, but why should you have to struggle? 2) Did you know that the thicken tool will thicken other objects other than the one you have selected? For example, I have several objects dispersed on three layers and two layers are visible, while one is off (not visible, not background mode). So I select the polys on layer 1 that I want to thicken and turn on the thicken tool. I thicken just those polys on layer 1 and it works great. The rest of the polys on layer 1 are untouched as they should be since they were not selected. However, unbeknownst to me at the time, all the polys that weren’t selected but were visible on layer 2 were also thickened. What a wonderful tool!! It creates mistakes for me, like I don’t make enough on my own. This is why I have a love/hate feeling towards LW. I’m venting a little here, but I also wanted to let everyone know to watch out when using the thicken tool.

Lewis
07-29-2015, 08:43 AM
Yes it is pita that i tworks that way. Sadly it is been that way for long time so you will need to use workarounds to solve those issues untill they fix those bugs :(.

prometheus
07-29-2015, 08:44 AM
There are many things I like about Ligthwave. Yet it seems like every time I turn around I’m bitten by its lack of quality. Granted, I’m not an experienced modeler which is just another reason why it is important for the tools to operate the way they are supposed to. I have to redo my work enough due to my own mistakes, but I shouldn’t have to keep redoing work because the LW tools don’t perform properly. Two cases in point. 1) Did you know that you used to be able to hold down the control key to restrict movement in just one direction for the bend tool? No more, this quit working or was changed several versions ago. If you watch William Vaughn’s tutorial on how to make threads, it is working properly back in version 4 or 8 or whatever version he was using. Now it is very difficult to bend something and get it perfectly straight. You can do it, but why should you have to struggle? 2) Did you know that the thicken tool will thicken other objects other than the one you have selected? For example, I have several objects dispersed on three layers and two layers are visible, while one is off (not visible, not background mode). So I select the polys on layer 1 that I want to thicken and turn on the thicken tool. I thicken just those polys on layer 1 and it works great. The rest of the polys on layer 1 are untouched as they should be since they were not selected. However, unbeknownst to me at the time, all the polys that weren’t selected but were visible on layer 2 were also thickened. What a wonderful tool!! It creates mistakes for me, like I don’t make enough on my own. This is why I have a love/hate feeling towards LW. I’m venting a little here, but I also wanted to let everyone know to watch out when using the thicken tool.

I can understand frustration on thicken, but I also think it behaves logicly as it should and it is you not understanding how layers or thicken should work unfortunatly.
when nothing is selected on a layer and you are in poly mode, tool operations often sees the whole layer as selected to operate on, try to keep a workflow and do tool operations on one layer only, and you have no problems.
when you select one segment on the first layer but not the other, it will of course logicly only take acount the selected segment, , Lghtwave can and will recognize allvisible active layers for operations as selected if nothing is else is selected on it, thus it takes in account the other layer that has no selected polys and it performs thicken on that layer too, it is infact the polyselection in the first layer that excludes the non selected segment in the first layer, while the second layer has nothing selected to make an exclusion thus it thickens also that layer.

If you were to have two segments on each layer and select only one segment on each layer, only those would be thickened... and not any of the unselected ones in any layer.
I hope that make sense?

Regarding the bend tool...I am all with you on that, I have never liked it ..unfortunatly the lw group has still not been able to implement a better bend tool which they were about to with core, the core bend tool is how you would want it..Im a bit puzzled they haven´t been able to transfer that core tech yet, maybe they forgot or something.

Michael

Wade
07-29-2015, 09:09 AM
Anyone know if the thicken issue has been reported as a bug? I would guess that it has. While it does thicken layers that are seen but not selected if they are turned off or not seen it does not thicken in 2015 - BUT is does if they are seen which as you have stated is not what one would expect.

prometheus
07-29-2015, 09:15 AM
Anyone know if the thicken issue has been reported as a bug? I would guess that it has. While it does thicken layers that are seen but not selected if they are turned off or not seen it does not thicken in 2015 - BUT is does if they are seen which as you have stated is not what one would expect.

Did you read my post?

Lewis
07-29-2015, 09:20 AM
Did you read my post?

I did but you miss one important thing. Thicken thickens all layers even if you select few polys so it is NOT respecting selections only so your explanation is not correct in this case so there it is a BUG. And yes i reported it long ago.

prometheus
07-29-2015, 09:26 AM
I did but you miss one important thing. Thicken thickens all layers even if you select few polys so it is NOT respecting selections only so your explanation is not correct in this case so there it is a BUG. And yes i reported it long ago.

Nope..not correct in my experience with lw 11.6.3 anyway...maybe it behaves that way in 2015, Using four poly segments (two on each layer) by selecting the two layers active and visible, then selecting one segment in the first layer and one segment on the second layer, Only those will be thickened, none of the other segments are thickened, so that means one segment in the first layer is thickened and the other on the same layer is not, and one segment on the second layer is thickened and the other segment on the second layer is not thickened.

prometheus
07-29-2015, 09:29 AM
and I don´t think you read or understood my post, I never said it respects selections only, overall...it takes in account any visible layer as a selection if anything isn´t selected.
that was what I tried to explain previously..maybe it was a poor description?

Lewis
07-29-2015, 09:33 AM
11.6 is long history for me. I'm on 2015.x and as i explained it is not working properly there. Same as OP mentioned which is making him problems.

Btw i reported 10 tools what did not work properly with multi selected layers back then in december 2014. LWG3D fixed several of those (thanks James) in 2015 release bug fixes.

Basically i sent them video, model and steps for reproduction.
Here is quote from my report back then:


/*NOT working with multiple layers selected*/ /*at all*/
1. Bandsaw Pro
2. CUT
3. BandGlue
4. EdgeBevel
5. Rounder
6. Magic Bevel
7. Fracture
8. Reduce Polys (regular one, not "+")

/*Sort of working or half working*/
1. Thicken is HALF working (it works on multiple layers but wrong - it
respect selection (just picked few polys in 2nd layer) but in same time
it thickens other layer
completely regardles of no polys being selected there.

2. HeatShrink works on multslected layers (one FG and one BG as is
expected BUT they both have to be withing same object i.e. i can't have
BG layer form 2nd object
which is shame 'coz then on my arch-viz stuff I usually have to copy
terrain polygons to insantacner model to be able to drop points for
trees, bushes, people..... I know
this might not fall under same category (multilayers within same mesh)
but just wanted to mention in case it's similar FIX to make it work.


So long story short PLEASE do not assume I don't know what I'm talking about when i speak about LW, especially modeler which i know in and out like my pockets ;).

prometheus
07-29-2015, 09:35 AM
11.6 is long history for me. I'm on 2015.x and as i explained it is not working properly there. Same as OP mentioned which is making him problems.

Thought you said you filed the bug long ago? maybe not that long then, anyway...that may be the case with 2015, will have to fire up the discovery edition or install the latest demo trial of it to check it and get back...if it works for me as with 11.6.3 then we have a problem, if it doesn´t work for me as with 11.6.3
then the lightwave group has a problem.

unstable
07-29-2015, 09:36 AM
Thanks, at least it is nice to know that these have been reported as a bug. And I understand the point you're making prometheus, but all LW tools should work the same in regards to selection. If I had two layers visible and only selected 4 points on the first layer to move, I wouldn't expect all points on the second layer to move when I move the 4 points on the first layer. And to my knowledge, the other points don't move. This is the way most other tools work, which makes the thicken tool's issue a bug and not a feature imo.

inkpen3d
07-29-2015, 09:51 AM
Sorry Lewis, I have to agree with Prometheus here. The Thicken tool behaves as expected: Selected polygons in a selected layer are thickened and ALL polygons in a (simultaneously) selected layer where no individual polygons are selected are also thickened. In other words, Thicken is obeying the rule that if nothing is selected in a selected layer then all polygons are affected by the tool. BTW, I checked this this using LW2015.2 Modeler.

prometheus
07-29-2015, 09:56 AM
Thanks, at least it is nice to know that these have been reported as a bug. And I understand the point you're making prometheus, but all LW tools should work the same in regards to selection. If I had two layers visible and only selected 4 points on the first layer to move, I wouldn't expect all points on the second layer to move when I move the 4 points on the first layer. And to my knowledge, the other points don't move. This is the way most other tools work, which makes the thicken tool's issue a bug and not a feature imo.

yes...I might stand corrected on that...since testing with extrude with the same approach, and of course the unselected parts in visible second layers will not extrude, what I explained is of course probably only valid for the thicken tool and could be said to be a bug perhaps.

Unfortunatly I have to reinstall 2015 first before I can try this with that version.

prometheus
07-29-2015, 09:58 AM
Sorry Lewis, I have to agree with Prometheus here. The Thicken tool behaves as expected: Selected polygons in a selected layer are thickened and ALL polygons in a (simultaneously) selected layer where no individual polygons are selected are also thickened. In other words, Thicken is obeying the rule that if nothing is selected in a selected layer then all polygons are affected by the tool. BTW, I checked this this using LW2015.2 Modeler.


I said I was corrected, but then again..my explanation is sort of valid, I think it depends on how you expect the tools to behave feature wise, the thicken tool and extrude tool is a newer vs older tool..so not sure about this.
I think it comes down to how you really want this tool to behave, not necessary a bug.

inkpen3d
07-29-2015, 10:03 AM
yes...I might stand corrected on that...since testing with extrude with the same approach, and of course the unselected parts in visible second layers will not extrude, what I explained is of course probably only valid for the thicken tool and could be said to be a bug perhaps.

Unfortunatly I have to reinstall 2015 first before I can try this with that version.

Hmm, like you I've double checked the behaviour of other Modeler tools and I have to say that the Thicken tool behaviour is inconsistent with respect to the other tools: e.g. Bevel ONLY affects those polygons that are selected in a pair of selected layers! I too stand corrected!!!

Lewis
07-29-2015, 10:26 AM
Andddd as i said i know my sh... pretty good in LWM ;).

Nevertheless at least we are on samepage now as OP had problem in his initial post.

Btw actually many of new meshsync tools added in 11.5 modeler do not follow lw modeler logic of nothing selected is same as all selected or simple fact that wireframe mode means you can select through or snap to bg layer etc. etc... but since those tools were never fully finished (i sent hem several videos and reports back then in 2012) and Ikeda is not longer part of the DEV team (he coded those for most part) i do often wonder will it ever be changed/fixed/updated, sigh... :(.

prometheus
07-29-2015, 10:28 AM
Hmm, like you I've double checked the behaviour of other Modeler tools and I have to say that the Thicken tool behaviour is inconsistent with respect to the other tools: e.g. Bevel ONLY affects those polygons that are selected in a pair of selected layers! I too stand corrected!!!

so far..we all might agree that the thicken tool might be inconsistent when you compare to how most other tools work, will have to check some modeling operations with the thicken tool to see if there by any chance would be an advantage to have it this way.

I just installed the 2015 v2 update ..can only run in discovery mode, however...lewis said it wasn´t working the same way as it did for me in 11.3.6 ...I can verify that it Does on my side anyway, the same operations I performed on different segments in 11.6.3 .they do only extrude the selected segments on the first layer and the second layer, and it does not extrude the non selected segments on layer one or layer two, so there Lewis might have other issues..or missunderstood or something.

Lewis
07-29-2015, 10:47 AM
Thought you said you filed the bug long ago? maybe not that long .....

How does september 2011 sounds for you ? Is that long enough ago for you :)?
That is in lw 10.x when i reported some tools not working proprly with multy seected layers (check my quote below). Later i just appended more tools to that same bug report. Thicken was not available back then in 2011 so i added that later so dec 2014 was my las append to that open case. But i talked to DEVs directly and even at siggraph in 2012 in backstage i warned about some issues and problems with tools.
Thankfully James managed to fix many of those and 2015 modeler is easier to use than 11.6 in that regard :).

So esentially as much as i talk here i also do many reports to official channels and through "other" channells for years and years. So it is not like I'm not being constructive or talk to bash LW as some people think. My current report list on account says i have 258 reports and 90% of those have videos and models/content for easy reproduction and understanding. And that is just in this new report system. Old bugbot reports prior 2007 are not visible here on new system.


Progress Not Available In Search (LWB-346) (40855) Multiple layers - tools BUG
Project: LightWave Bugs Created: Sept. 5, 2011, 6:10 p.m. Updated: Dec. 2, 2014, 4:52 p.m.
From: [email protected]
Date: Sept. 5, 2011, 6:10 p.m.

Hi !

Can you please fix modeler tools like Bandsaw Pro, Bandglue, Edge Bevel, CUT tool... to work with multiple selected layers. Currently they work only with one layer selected.

Please check video and test on supplied model.

Thanks
Attachments
All_layers_tools_BUG.rar.zip

prometheus
07-29-2015, 10:55 AM
Lewis....
I don´t get why you don´t get the same behaviour with thicken when you select two segments each in each layer and thicken only those and not the unselected layers, or did we misunderstand each other..to me it sounded you tried that and it thickens
even the unselected segment on the very same layer that also has a selected segment.

as I said in my previous post, both 11.6.3 and 2015 works the same here for me.

Lewis
07-29-2015, 10:56 AM
..lewis said it wasn´t working the same way as it did for me in 11.3.6 ...I can verify that it Does on my side anyway, the same operations I performed on different segments in 11.6.3 .they do only extrude the selected segments on the first layer and the second layer, and it does not extrude the non selected segments on layer one or layer two, so there Lewis might have other issues..or missunderstood or something.

I said it is not working properly i 2015.x . I was refering to 11.6 only as long history for me after you said you arent upgraded. I've not said i use it in 11.6 at all. You are only one bringing 11.6 in equation so not sure where did you read that i said it.

Actually there is no point in speaking about bugs or broken features in older LW version since they won't fix that one anyway so user has to be up to date with versions to get new features/fixes.

unstable
07-29-2015, 11:21 AM
Sorry guys. I should have made it clear in my original post that I had the same results in 11.6 as 2015 versions. And it appears that the real issue is that tools within LW should be standardized. At least in regards to selecting. If one tool works only on those polys you have selected regardless of the number of layers that are active, then all tools should work that way. And I know I'm inexperienced, but I can't imagine using the knife tool on two selected polys in layer one and cutting through all polys on layers two, three and four because I didn't change their visibility. So I think the thicken tool is the renegade here.:goodluck:

prometheus
07-29-2015, 11:50 AM
I said it is not working properly i 2015.x . I was refering to 11.6 only as long history for me after you said you arent upgraded. I've not said i use it in 11.6 at all. You are only one bringing 11.6 in equation so not sure where did you read that i said it.

Actually there is no point in speaking about bugs or broken features in older LW version since they won't fix that one anyway so user has to be up to date with versions to get new features/fixes.

We are really confusing each other here...I don´t think you interprete my writings properly ..I wrote as you can see this
"...Lewis said it wasn´t working the same way as it did for me in 11.3.6" by that I do not write or state that you also were testing on 11.6.3 or that I perceived you were doing so... it was supposed to mean that it(your testing in 2015) simply isn´t working the same way as it did for me in 11.63 , and I assumed you know what version you are using right?

so your conclusion that I did read you said that...is wrong.


of course I am bringing in 11.6.3 ..since that was the question of difference between 2015 and 11.6.3
so..
Lewis...I know you said it was not working properly in 2015, I know you were refering to 11.6 as history..but you said in 2015 it doesn´t work for you as it does for me in 11.6.3...but the thing is I got it working with 2015 just as I do with 11.6.3 and the difference is not about 11.6.3 and 2015, the question is why I get different results Than you do with both those two versions than you do in 2015, since you said you were on 2015 and not 11.6.3 that could be a differential, but obviously since it works the same for me in 11.6.3 and 2015, there is no differential between those, there´s only a differential between your results in 2015 and my results in 2015.

To get away from the confusion..I still haven´t got this cleared up..why do you get a different result with thicken in the lw 2015 version... than I do in lw 2015?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-5dPy1O3CQ

- - - Updated - - -


Sorry guys. I should have made it clear in my original post that I had the same results in 11.6 as 2015 versions. And it appears that the real issue is that tools within LW should be standardized. At least in regards to selecting. If one tool works only on those polys you have selected regardless of the number of layers that are active, then all tools should work that way. And I know I'm inexperienced, but I can't imagine using the knife tool on two selected polys in layer one and cutting through all polys on layers two, three and four because I didn't change their visibility. So I think the thicken tool is the renegade here.:goodluck:

yeah that could have spared the confusion between me and Lewis...maybe, still needs to resolve why he and I get different results in 2015, though I suspect we actually do not, sure there must have been a misunderstanding when refering to layers or selections.

Lewis
07-29-2015, 11:50 AM
Sorry guys. I should have made it clear in my original post that I had the same results in 11.6 as 2015 versions. And it appears that the real issue is that tools within LW should be standardized. At least in regards to selecting. If one tool works only on those polys you have selected regardless of the number of layers that are active, then all tools should work that way. And I know I'm inexperienced, but I can't imagine using the knife tool on two selected polys in layer one and cutting through all polys on layers two, three and four because I didn't change their visibility. So I think the thicken tool is the renegade here.:goodluck:

You are absolutely right. There should be same design standard with all tools and currently it isn't which is wrong and should be fixed by DEVs.
We "oldtimers" learned to live and work with those quirks and odd behaiours of LW during time but those are things hard to grasp and understand for newcomers, especially in the learning process, they make learning curve harder than it should be. Luckily LWM is not that hard to learn but those things fixed would make it even better user experiance which at the end it benefits users and LWG3D = win/win :)..

BeeVee
07-29-2015, 02:26 PM
So, the upshot of all this is that someone should write a new bug report, explaining clearly the problem. Lewis has written many hundreds and certainly gone out of his way already to provide other evidence for the bugs he reports, so can I suggest someone else does? :) Bugs are reported on your account page (https://www.lightwave3d.com/account/) on the lightwave3d.com website.

Bugs should be reported with clear steps to reproduce and content - just some multi-poly shapes on several layers will be perfectly good enough.

B

erikals
07-29-2015, 03:09 PM
William Proton might have used a Snap Value... >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6u2y1h676M

prometheus
07-29-2015, 04:45 PM
William Proton might have used a Snap Value... >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6u2y1h676M

awkward..I can´t even get that to work...but I have too little patience with things like this that is so simple in model action, and if that workaround doesn´t work straight away..then I would continue to go...Please fix it in real.
it won´t even bend with that.

Michael

prometheus
07-29-2015, 04:57 PM
well I could get it to work after a while, but I notice that it took a while until I have dragged the mouse with enough direction before the bend starts, then the bend also is jerky/step bending.

what I usually do though, and I think william vaughan also showed that, and of course helps to set a bit of grid fixing...then I only bend it a little bit in the direction I want and make sure it is straight, then undo and then enter 360 degree value and hit apply, if 360 degree is what I want.

erikals
07-29-2015, 06:04 PM
yep, one more of those Modeler things that needs to be addressed...

by the way >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?139159-Modeler-Fixes-Updates

Snosrap
07-29-2015, 06:22 PM
So I think the thicken tool is the renegade here.:goodluck: I agree. When something is selected in a layer with multiple layers selected the tool should only work on the selection- period.

spherical
07-29-2015, 07:53 PM
Well, there's two ways to look at this. With the overall and pervading convention that when nothing is selected, everything is, it just may be that the ones that do not do anything to unselected polys/points/edges on layers that are also active, along with a layer that has partially selected geometry are bugs and the ones that follow the overall selection convention (nothing = everything) that is present everywhere are working correctly. It's an "Everyone is out of step but Johnny" situation. Recognizing that, it could very well be that the reason none of the bug reports are getting fixed is that they can't figure out how to stop the ones that don't work on completely unselected geometry. Anyone's brain hurt yet? :D

jwiede
07-30-2015, 01:19 PM
Well, there's two ways to look at this. With the overall and pervading convention that when nothing is selected, everything is, it just may be that the ones that do not do anything to unselected polys/points/edges on layers that are also active, along with a layer that has partially selected geometry are bugs and the ones that follow the overall selection convention (nothing = everything) that is present everywhere are working correctly.

The per-layer nothing-is-all-selected behavior (needlessly) forces users to do a bunch of layer visibility twiddling in the vast majority of selection usage cases. It's an issue of ergonomics, and working as Thicken does is less efficient from a user action required perspective (iow, ergonomic) compared to the others. The correct behavior should be the more ergonomically efficient one, this isn't an arbitrary decision where either choice is "equally good", there is a clear and compelling ergonomic benefit to the "per-layer nothing-selected-is-nothing" approach in most selection usage cases. The case where nothing at all is selected should still equal everything selected, that case provides a specific ergonomic benefit, but only for that case.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-30-2015, 03:19 PM
Yeah. Thicken behavior can't possible be by design. Gotta be a bug.

BeeVee
07-30-2015, 03:59 PM
And has anyone reported it as a bug in the day since I posted?

B

Snosrap
07-30-2015, 06:37 PM
And has anyone reported it as a bug in the day since I posted?

B Step up BeeVee.

jeric_synergy
07-30-2015, 07:39 PM
So, the upshot of all this is that someone should write a new bug report, explaining clearly the problem. Lewis has written many hundreds and certainly gone out of his way already to provide other evidence for the bugs he reports, so can I suggest someone else does? :) Bugs are reported on your account page (https://www.lightwave3d.com/account/) on the lightwave3d.com website.
B
WOW! I had never checked out that feature before (It's under "REPORTS" on the right hand side)-- I've got 218 reports to my credit, although to be fair many are Feature Requests, but plenty are genuine bugs. In fact, the majority. I think.

Nicely formatted too! :thumbsup: to whoever coded that page: Good Job! :star:

jeric_synergy
07-30-2015, 07:41 PM
I agree. When something is selected in a layer with multiple layers selected the tool should only work on the selection- period.
+1

spherical
07-31-2015, 12:24 AM
The case where nothing at all is selected should still equal everything selected, that case provides a specific ergonomic benefit, but only for that case.

Exactly. And that is why the "nothing = everything" convention should be abandoned... cuz', damn, that's just basically unintuitive. If you want to select all, then Select All; either by right-click lasso or Ctrl-A. Then, all tools can work the same. It's a basic change that needs to be addressed, not specific tools.

jeric_synergy
07-31-2015, 12:44 AM
Exactly. And that is why the "nothing = everything" convention should be abandoned... cuz', damn, that's just basically unintuitive.
It's the same convention in Photoshop.

spherical
07-31-2015, 12:53 AM
So what? Doesn't exactly make it the Right Thing; especially in an application as blindingly more complex and capable as LightWave. That's the same thing as a kid telling his parents: "Everyone else has one."

jwiede
07-31-2015, 03:03 AM
Exactly. And that is why the "nothing = everything" convention should be abandoned... cuz', damn, that's just basically unintuitive. If you want to select all, then Select All; either by right-click lasso or Ctrl-A. Then, all tools can work the same. It's a basic change that needs to be addressed, not specific tools.

As I said, there's a specific ergo benefit to not requiring "select all" prior to acting on everything, but from a continuity/discoverability standpoint it could easily be argued to be detrimental. I can see both positions' validity -- IMO, if removing "nothing-at-all equals all" requires resetting maturity on a significant quantity of code that otherwise would continue maturing then probably not worth it, but if change is low-effort and/or low-"code maturity reset volume" impact then probably worth consideration.

Part of adding history support will almost certainly involve abstraction of (and more explicit tracking of) LW operator : operand sequences, which in turn necessitates rework/abstraction of how LW represents/stores operands, such as selections. That'd also be a great time to set down some concrete rules on how operators "treat" operands (and corner cases like we're describing), as well as capturing them in generically-accessible code usable both by LW and third-party code).

tijgervisuals
07-31-2015, 05:49 AM
Nothing = Everything is not so bad....
You could see multiple (a group of) foreground layers as a temporary layer, anything selected (be it in one or more layers) should be seen as a selection in the 'multiple layers' layer.
'Old' functions work a axpected, as will 'newer'.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-31-2015, 08:05 AM
I strongly disagree that the "Nothing = Everything" behavior should be abandoned. Being forced to make direct selections for tools like Taper/Bend/Drag/Dragnet/Magnet/Knife etc. etc. etc., not to mention the 3rd Powers plugs, would significantly slow workflow IMO.

jeric_synergy
07-31-2015, 08:06 AM
While the agreed-upon buggy behaviour re layers should be corrected, as per #41, "nothing=all" works perfectly for me. Being forced to select Every Damn Time would be a tedious drag on productivity, and introduce a great number of currently unneeded clicks. LWM is clicky enough as it is.

Snosrap
07-31-2015, 08:15 AM
I strongly believe in keeping the current "if nothing is selected then everything is selected" behavior - just make it consistent throughout Modeler!

Chris S. (Fez)
07-31-2015, 08:27 AM
I strongly believe in keeping the current "if nothing is selected then everything is selected" behavior - just make it consistent throughout Modeler!

Yes please!

jboudreau
07-31-2015, 09:42 AM
[QUOTE=Lewis;1438372]11.6 is long history for me. I'm on 2015.x and as i explained it is not working properly there. Same as OP mentioned which is making him problems.

Btw i reported 10 tools what did not work properly with multi selected layers back then in december 2014. LWG3D fixed several of those (thanks James) in 2015 release bug fixes.

Basically i sent them video, model and steps for reproduction.
Here is quote from my report back then:


/*NOT working with multiple layers selected*/ /*at all*/
1. Bandsaw Pro
2. CUT
3. BandGlue
4. EdgeBevel
5. Rounder
6. Magic Bevel
7. Fracture
8. Reduce Polys (regular one, not "+")

Hi Lewis

I was wondering are all these tools you mentioned above working with multiple layers in version 2015.2 because here they are not.

Thanks,
Jason

inkpen3d
07-31-2015, 09:45 AM
So, the upshot of all this is that someone should write a new bug report, explaining clearly the problem. Lewis has written many hundreds and certainly gone out of his way already to provide other evidence for the bugs he reports, so can I suggest someone else does? :) Bugs are reported on your account page (https://www.lightwave3d.com/account/) on the lightwave3d.com website.

Bugs should be reported with clear steps to reproduce and content - just some multi-poly shapes on several layers will be perfectly good enough.

B


And has anyone reported it as a bug in the day since I posted?

B

Ah! I did wonder. So that's the way it works at NT: LW users report an annoying bug, the software engineers then keep pushing it to the bottom of the pile whilst they deal with more urgent stuff (e.g. new features and show stopper faults) until the bug drops off the bottom of their list of fault reports (or is considered to be so ancient as to not be worth visiting because, surely, it's been dealt with by now) and it gets lost in the mists of time. We users then have to re-report the same bug and the whole sorry process repeats itself - it's like a software version of Groundhog Day! ;) :)

Lewis
07-31-2015, 09:51 AM
Hi Lewis

I was wondering are all these tools you mentioned above working with multiple layers in version 2015.2 because here they are not.

Thanks,
Jason

Not all but some are fixed. Cant check right now which ones since I'm not in front of my machine but few of them are fixed.

jboudreau
07-31-2015, 10:14 AM
In my opinion the thicken tool should work like all the other tools, If you have 2 layers active and you select polygons on one of the layers and do a smooth shift then only those polygons are affected. This is how the thicken tool should work too and it doesn't so I would say this is a bug aswell.

With the argument of if nothing is selected everything is selected, Yes that's great and is very useful and I wouldn't want to see them get rid of this feature, It should only take effect if there are no selected polygons at all. If there are selected poygons then that rule should be disabled meaning that only the selected polygons should be affected period.

Thanks Lewis

I just tested out the following tools below, When you get the chance can you verify if this is the same on your end?

1. Bandsaw Pro (NOT WORKING)
2. CUT (WORKS)
3. BandGlue (NOT WORKING)
4. EdgeBevel (WORKS)
5. Rounder (NOT WORKING)
6. Magic Bevel (WORKS)
7. Fracture (NOT WORKING)
8. Reduce Polys (regular one, not "+") (NOT WORKING)

Thanks,
Jason

spherical
07-31-2015, 04:58 PM
As I said, there's a specific ergo benefit to not requiring "select all" prior to acting on everything, but from a continuity/discoverability standpoint it could easily be argued to be detrimental. I can see both positions' validity

Good treatise. No doubt it would be fairly extensive to eliminate the method all in one go and it would have to be rolled in over time somehow; what with the userbase being used to how it has been and obviously resistant to change.

The concept that seems odd to me is that, with the current system, when something is manually selected, what is really going on is that all other things are actually being de-selected. Thinking about it that way, it really is backward. Now, one can argue that there's no point in having a state where nothing is actually selected; but it seems that we may have just found a bunch in this thread, where having the ability to not select is missing.

jeric_synergy
07-31-2015, 05:40 PM
It's a time saving convention. It's like how my DVD player doesn't have to be ON when I hit the Eject button: it assumes I want it to be on, so it turns itself on.

(Personally, I wish that was how many things worked, in LW conspicuously the EDIT NULL requester and its damn color dialogs. >8^P )

spherical
07-31-2015, 11:29 PM
Yeah, well AI has a long way to go...