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hrgiger
12-04-2003, 04:47 PM
Since people keep asking about what we know about Lightwave 8 thus far, I thought I'd start a feature list that everyone can refer to when people ask what we know about Lightwave 8.

Please, if I leave something out, tell me what it is and I'll keep editing and updating the list so we all know what we have so far.

So, without further ado, here's what we know....

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE LIST AND THAT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT ALL OF LW8 IS GOING TO INCLUDE. THIS IS JUST WHAT WE KNOW CURRENTLY. ALSO, BE AWARE THAT IT'S POSSIBLE THERE IS SOME MISINFORMATION ON THIS LIST BUT I ASSUME MOST OF THESE FEATURES TO BE ACCURATE.


New Content- New sample content, models, scenes, etc...

Integrated soft body/hard body dynamics- What's motion Designer? Looks like our new softbodies are faster calculating not to mention integrated, that means weight maps work on them.


Faster IK/FK

Integrated IK/FK Blending -ngrava says that this won't be so much blending since in normal IK/FK blending in LW, when you switch to IK from FK, the IK targets move to their respective nulls. He says that in LW8 when you switch, the bone IK/FK chain should stay in place. I have't seen any info on that exactly but I hope that's true!

Updated Timeline and Dopesheet- We've been wanting this one for a long time. We also know it will do fractional frames.


Bone Dynamics- Use Bone Dynamics to simulate a character's bones being affected by wind or getting struck by a large boulder. No need to keyframe the motions when we have the dynamics for it. Also, bone dynamics respect bone constraints so push that character down the stairs and watch them tumble.


Selectable and editable points and particles in Layout- Now we can select those stray particles that fly off course and either fix their path, or delete them entirely. Also use it to fix a bad deformation on a characters joint or keep your cloth from penetrating your characters skin. Bad Cloth simulation? It's fixable now without recalculation.


Cloth Dynamics- Want your cloth to rip during the simulation? Sweetness.


New Scene Editor- Edit multiple surfaces at a time with ease.


Node based Expressions Builder

Importable rigs New Rig file for saving and loading bone rigs and constraints. Load a rig, scale it to fit, and make any necessary adjustments. Not sure yet if it saves the nulls with the setup but I would assume it would.

New Vertex Map Panel

Edge Beveling- Well, it looks like we have to select points instead of actual edges but I'll take it in lieu of edges right now. Gives you pretty much the same result.


Arbitrary Frame Rendering This is great. Actually, NanoGator just came up for a good use for this, you can use it to skip frames to give it a limited frame look like in hand drawn cel-animation...Very cool!


Multiple Mirror tool in Layout

Ortho Bone tools- The ability to use bones in layout like you do skelegons in modeler. Reposition joints, scale bones, split bones, connect bones, etc....


Faster Rendering- No details or confirmation yet. An article in 3DWorld had Andrew Cross stating that Rendering speed was an area that equal emphasis was being placed on.

Save/Load Poses.

Multiple undo's in Layout- Wade says unlimited undos but is that right? I mean, that has to be limited by the amount of memory available. Anyway, we've been wanting this for a while as well.

Animatable UV Coordinates- Make animatable texture effects.

New Particle System Tools

Improvements to Lscript and to the API

Improved workflow in Layout and Modeler



Like I said, if you think something one here needs corrected, added onto, or I just plain forgot some new features that you know will be in 8, post them here and I'll keep updating the list. Also if you see something that's wrong or not confirmed yet, I'll take it out or put a note beside it.

Thanks to Takkun, CB_3D, evenflow, ngrava, anieves,
PixelRanger, Wade, Sketchjay, NanoGator and Dodgy for the updates.

takkun
12-04-2003, 04:57 PM
Also, the bone dynamics recognize bone limits/constraints making it useful for ragdoll dynamics (i.e. push a character down a flight of stairs, turn on bone dynamics, and his limbs *should* bend and move correctly)

EDIT: Jabba has made some good points. It hasn't been specified by Newtek that there is ragdoll dynamics, I just reached that conclusion since objects can be affected by other objects, like the boxing glove siggraph demo, and bone limits are recognized.

Dodgy
12-04-2003, 05:43 PM
Lots of rigging stuff. The ability to save out all/part rigs and then load those rigs back in on another character. Makes setting up a character a snap. You also get preset rigs to play with.

CB_3D
12-04-2003, 06:14 PM
Has there been any mention of integrated IK/FK blending so far?

ngrava
12-04-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by CB_3D
Has there been any mention of integrated IK/FK blending so far?

Hi,

The LW8 IK/FK doesn't really work like that. It's actually based on nodes that can be "pinned" or "Fixed" in space at any given time. A lot like what's available in Motion Builder. In Maya and XSI you have to plane out when you want to switch between having IK on or off and how long the transition lasts. Also, when you rotate bones in FK mode, the constraints stay where you left them so that when you switch back, your bones have to slide back to the constraints. The main difference is that this kind of IK/FK is based on a fixed rig where as, in LW8, the rig canbe retooled to fix the needs of the current frame.The new IK in V8 (IK booster) doesn't have these limitations because the nodes (which are position constraints) stay with the bones at all times. It's very kool.

The whole IK/FK blending thing has always been sort of silly to me. Like the programmers just give up and say, "Hey, I have no idea how to fix your IK issues so let's just make it so you can turn it off if you need to." What we really need are rigging tools that are flexible enough to be able change with the action of the scene. Like being able to re-root chains, reverse hierarchies, and basically re-rig all on the fly while we are animating and to have the software remember what we did too. It looks like this is what NewTek are attempting to do. I'm for one am really excited about it.

-=GB=-

Jabba
12-05-2003, 02:34 AM
First, I like those new "december screenshots" ;) I wait for eight like the others. I don't want to start flame wars, just let me pecify that list with my opinions based on things that we have seen and on things that they don't show to us ;)


Originally posted by hrgiger

Integrated soft body/hard body dynamics- What's motion Designer? Looks like our new softbodies are faster calculating not to mention integrated, that means weight maps work on them.

Because it is based on PFX and FXBreak, one can assume that dynamics in [8] will be point based - it will compute collision between points (actual dynamic object) and primitive (coliision object). If my presumptions are right, It could mean that if you let fall the "L" profile on the box, points of L profile will colide with the box but polygons will penetrate it. I hope I'm wrong ;)

Another point is, that if it is a "deformation" instead of "motion" (even if it is a hard dynamics), you end up with thigs falling down to the floor and colide with each other but the actual objects will be at the same place with no motion on it. It's just another guess, but let say you build a box, parent something to it and let it fall to the ground - the parent will not move with that box, because the box is 'not moving' - just its polygons will fall because of deformations. And I even don't mention things like expression or exporting - there will be a flat line in motion channels. Again - hope I'm wrong ;)

Bone Dynamics- Use Bone Dynamics to simulate a character's bones being affected by wind or getting struck by a large boulder. No need to keyframe the motions when we have the dynamics for it. Also, bone dynamics respect bone constraints so push that character down the stairs and watch them tumble.

On siggraph videos and screenshot we were seeing just binded characters with wind affecting their bones. If my guess is right, it will (or it was in the time of siggraph) compute just rotation on bones, but it don't generate the actual motion for the 'characters hips'. We can just guess that it operate just on rotations, so ragdoll effects will be impossible with it. If this guess is wrong, why they don't claim with that feature?

Selectable and editable points and particles in Layout- Now we can select those stray particles that fly off course and either fix their path, or delete them entirely. Also use it to fix a bad deformation on a characters joint or keep your cloth from penetrating your characters skin. Bad Cloth simulation? It's fixable now without recalculation.

What we saw was next generation PFX efit tool that comes with FXBreak 3/4 years ago. But if you take a look at siggraph videos you will see that you could move things at actual keyframes (and everything TO or AFTER that keyframe) but dynamics generate internaly keyframes for every frame, so if you edit that, you end up with very jittered motion unless you precisely edit the whole region of motion frame by frame by hand. There is no option for 'magnet' or 'dragnet' or something like that.


New Vertex Map Panel
Don't get me wrong but I don't see anything that great about it. It's just panel ;). It seems that there is a new 'create' item in the popup menu and they add a selection sets to the VMap panel.
And I bet that it still operate in the old way - right click opens the popup menu on some item, but it don't select it at the same time ;), so if you right click to some weightmap and select 'delete', you will delete the last selected weigtmap instead of that one you open the menu for ;)
I rather see specific VMap functions (like normalize, tranform, quantize etc) on that popup menu.



And you forgot the:

popup menu on "E" button- that allow you to create, copy, paste and remove the envelope without entering the graph editor. I hope that we will have that popup menu ON ALL editboxes (color, numeric inputs, "T" buttons...). Just imagine that you will be able to easily copy the color from NADIR to GROUND in gradient backdrop at effect panel with two click instead of draging them or manualy write them.

Dodgy
12-05-2003, 03:06 AM
You seem to know an awful lot about the dynamics stuff. Do you actually own the fxbreak stuff jabba, or is this speculation on your part?

Mr JO
12-05-2003, 04:25 AM
animating UV along a lofted surface give you the ability to make it appear along is "own form" and not along an arbitrary axis. With UV Spider and this , a lot of possibility.

pixelranger
12-05-2003, 05:41 AM
With animatable UV's one could simulate skin sliding over muscles by making joint based morphs in the UV mesh.

jin choung
12-05-2003, 05:57 AM
well,

for certain, there is nothing known about what (if anything) is being done in modeler....

better title for this thread would be LAYOUT instead of lightwave....

and no, edge bevel and tools don't count... they don't count as a feature if you simply incorporated an already free plugin.

no credit given.

jin

hrgiger
12-05-2003, 06:03 AM
Well Jin, if any modeler features become known to us, we can add them to the list. So this will continue to be the Lightwave feature list and not just Layout.

You may not credit the edge beveling as a new feature since it was already a free plug-in but can anyone say it shouldn't already be in Lightwave?

jr_sunshine
12-05-2003, 06:12 AM
You modeler guys make me laugh....

:D

Wade
12-05-2003, 07:32 AM
"unlimited undo in Layout" - Proton

hrgiger
12-05-2003, 08:14 AM
Forgot about that one Wade. Although, it's not really unlimited is it? I made a note of it. Thanks.

hrgiger
12-05-2003, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by Dodgy
You seem to know an awful lot about the dynamics stuff. Do you actually own the fxbreak stuff jabba, or is this speculation on your part?


I think he mentioned several times in the post that he was just guessing off what he has seen so far and what Newtek hasn't shown us yet. If I'm wrong about that Jabba, let me know.

A few things I'd like to address about what Jabba said...

As far as bone dynamics, I would just think that if bones can now be affected by wind, that they would also be affected by collision objects so you could do a rag doll effect. Perhaps Proton can add something to that.

As far as softbodies...It probably will be point based and polygons will still probably penetrate surfaces during certain calculations. Forutnately though we can now edit those points to correct any misbehaving polygons. But as Jabba pointed out, the things I've seen thus far indicate that you have to edit them frame by frame instead of them inerpolating positions for themselves based on curves. It'd be great if it was that way but I don't think it will be.

anieves
12-05-2003, 09:21 AM
humm if I remember correctly, Proton showed the zombie model he did being hit by a huge boxing glove and the character was reacting to it (collisions) so you can probably do rag doll effects... to what extent remains to be seen.

hrgiger
12-05-2003, 10:30 AM
Yeah, I thought I had seen something like that anieves where the character was reacting to another solid body.

cresshead
12-05-2003, 01:04 PM
great idea for the feature list updates on lw8.

looking forward to some more details on lw 8 soon

EyesClosed
12-05-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Wade
unlimited undo in Layout

They aren't unlimited, nor are they real, full undos. Nothing more than a couple of transformation undos. An LScript already existed that could do just that.

Jabba
12-05-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Dodgy
You seem to know an awful lot about the dynamics stuff. Do you actually own the fxbreak stuff jabba, or is this speculation on your part?

I know lot about dynamics stuff in teoretical and practical ways but I DON'T know more than you about dynamics in LW[8]. What I wrote was only a speculation (as HRGiger said... thnx).

If I was mr. Ikeda and wrote PFX, then hardbody/softbody dynamics will be a next logical step, and also it will be point based to. So this was my first guess. The second guess was that if it is point based some situations will be a problem. Just imagine two cylinders - no ;) just imagine two crayons - they look like cylinders. Imagine that you create the disc and extrude it. Then imagine that you have one crayon fixed in space and second falling on the first. If you don't use some collision primitive like sphere or box, the falling one fall through the fixed one. Or imagine those pencils falling on the polygon landscape if everything that colide are points - or two boxes if one fall to another by its tip.

Ok. Let's talk about bone dynamics. You are all right ;) There was a video with zombie that being hit... I forgot that. I must download it again to see what exactly is happend there. But far as I remember, proton was using spring to keep the character together. I don't even remember if all the skeleton was moving or if it was pinned by its hips and just torso, hands and head colide with that boxing glove. I'm just curious why he don't let that zombie fall. I know that that was only an earlier version of [8] but I may just guess that dynamics can't handle it or it will never handle it or they just don't show it ;). And now I go and download that siggraph movie again ;)

ackees
12-05-2003, 03:07 PM
Did I see improved speed in rendering? How much faster and on which systems? Without the increased speed all those fancy features will not be used because they render too slow, you’ll get post on how to fake this or that because if you use them it takes a month of Sundays to render, I would like more details on the rendering improvements, please.

FenrirWolf
12-05-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Arbitrary Frame Rendering This is great. Camera 1 render frames 1-20, 45, 47, 49 Camera 2 render frames 21-44, 46, 48. Not sure why you'd want to render a single frame from a camera in the middle of a shot? Anyone see fight club?
LOL! Don't give me any ideas!

A nice list! Thanks for compiling all of this together. I've seen the preview website, and while it's enough to make me drool I'd also love to see an exact change log between 7.5 and 8.0.

hrgiger
12-05-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
They aren't unlimited, nor are they real, full undos. Nothing more than a couple of transformation undos. An LScript already existed that could do just that.

It's more then we had before....

And in my experience, transformation undos have been pretty much all I've wanted.

Jabba
12-05-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
It's more then we had before....

And in my experience, transformation undos have been pretty much all I've wanted.

Transformation undos.. hmm... where I realy need the multiple undo (or just one step undo at least) is Surface Editor and Graph Editor... everytime i move my curve by mystake or I click 'remove texture' instead of 'use texture' in texture editor my head lose some hairs ;))

hrgiger
12-05-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Jabba
just imagine two crayons - they look like cylinders. Imagine that you create the disc and extrude it. Then imagine that you have one crayon fixed in space and second falling on the first. If you don't use some collision primitive like sphere or box, the falling one fall through the fixed one.

Why couldn't you just add more segments to the model so it has a better chance of collision?

Kvaalen
12-05-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Jabba
Transformation undos.. hmm... where I realy need the multiple undo (or just one step undo at least) is Surface Editor and Graph Editor... everytime i move my curve by mystake or I click 'remove texture' instead of 'use texture' in texture editor my head lose some hairs ;))

It is possible to undo in the Graph Editor. :)

js33
12-05-2003, 05:59 PM
Yes it is. Hit the U key for undo.

Cheers,
JS

Wade
12-06-2003, 12:02 AM
" with the all new unlimited undo in Layout...I leave it on " from the CGtalk forum - "" by - William "Proton" Vaughan

Gabe
12-06-2003, 12:16 AM
What are skelegons? With the ease of using bones now in layout, skeleons will most likely go the way of the dinosaurs.
No, not at all. Skelegons will still be needed to use with vertex paint in setting your weight maps. VERY IMPORTANT!!! Unless vertex paint becomes usable from Layout we still need skelegons... otherwise making good weight maps for your bones will be much harder....

However, having said that, I would like to point out how great it would be if Vertex Paint were to be integrated into modeler much better than it is now. Like say, staying in the same viewport windows as modeler and being able to use subpatches while making your weightmaps... yeah, that would be cool.

Librarian
12-06-2003, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Jabba
Transformation undos.. hmm... where I realy need the multiple undo (or just one step undo at least) is Surface Editor and Graph Editor... everytime i move my curve by mystake
You could use footprints in the graph editor.

hrgiger
12-06-2003, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by Gabe
No, not at all. Skelegons will still be needed to use with vertex paint in setting your weight maps. VERY IMPORTANT!!! Unless vertex paint becomes usable from Layout we still need skelegons... otherwise making good weight maps for your bones will be much harder....



I never use vertex paint myself. I guess there will probably still be people who still use skelegons but I think you'll see most people turning to rigging in Layout once 8 comes out. What does everyone else think?

Hervé
12-06-2003, 01:34 AM
We have to let them some extra time, remember that all the coders of LW are all brand new people.... I mean our old friends knew LW from the ground up, so That's why LW8 is planned Early 2004, that's OK, meanwhile, we'll have Champaign, Caviar .....

j3st3r
12-06-2003, 02:56 AM
So, LW8 looks pretty impressive by the PREVIEWs. Anyway, undo in surface editor is a must...It`s really pain in the *** to reload the original model (for example with hundreds of megabytes of textures) whenever I`d like to change my mind...

I hope that the Layout-Modeler connection will be better, for example the textures won`t be loaded twice, if I`m working with the same model in Modeler and Layout...

Anyway, I see a promising feature list of LW 8.

samartin
12-06-2003, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
I never use vertex paint myself. I guess there will probably still be people who still use skelegons but I think you'll see most people turning to rigging in Layout once 8 comes out. What does everyone else think?

oh yeah I think this will become the norm, having the option of testing deformations as soon as you setup bones or as near damnit, instead of creating all the skelegons and then hubbing it over to layout blah blah blah...

Jabba
12-06-2003, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Why couldn't you just add more segments to the model so it has a better chance of collision?

Yep. That's one way how to do that, but you end up with lots of polygons.

Jabba
12-06-2003, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by Kvaalen
It is possible to undo in the Graph Editor. :)

I know... and I wrote that. But when you're in animation ecstasy near the deadline one sometimes forgot to use footprints or do "missdrag" in graph editor curve after some major tweak so one undo isn't enough.

lasco
12-06-2003, 06:23 AM
Multiple Mirror tool in Layout

…what's this ? what for ?


can't we have any serious clone tool instead
along path for example, dynamic for example…
can't believe it's that hard to developpe.

…this version sounds really made for animators,
hope at least these "improvements" of time rendering
will be serious.

Please for LW 9 give us some sooo simple and usefull tools :

Modeler :
- DYNAMIC cloning along path
- Snap to faces
- DYNAMIC re-editable bezier splines
- serious DXF / DWG importer (the current one works once on twice),
please let's admit once for all that DXF is THE ONLY REAL STANDARD 3D FORMAT
- measure tool with snap


Layout :
- import .lwo's layers by their NAMES with a LIST and not stupid numbers…
- clone with distance and rotation parameter, clone along curve
- GROUPING object please, so bored with these lists of hundreds of items in the Scene Editor !!!!

is it too much ?

hrgiger
12-06-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Jabba
Yep. That's one way how to do that, but you end up with lots of polygons.

Well, the softbodies in 8 will be faster calculating then Motion Designer and I've never had much problem with collision errors in Motion Designer and it is also point based collision. And for the example you're thinking of with the crayons, a few simple segments maybe adding another hundred or two polygons would do the trick and not really add that much to calculation time.


Originally posted by lasco
Multiple Mirror tool in Layout

…what's this ? what for ?


can't we have any serious clone tool instead
along path for example, dynamic for example…
can't believe it's that hard to developpe.

Well, all we've seen of this tools is a screenshot. We don't know yet what it can and can't do.


Originally posted by lasco
Please for LW 9 give us some sooo simple and usefull tools :

Modeler :
- DYNAMIC cloning along path
- Snap to faces
- DYNAMIC re-editable bezier splines
- serious DXF / DWG importer (the current one works once on twice),
please let's admit once for all that DXF is THE ONLY REAL STANDARD 3D FORMAT
- measure tool with snap


Layout :
- import .lwo's layers by their NAMES with a LIST and not stupid numbers…
- clone with distance and rotation parameter, clone along curve
- GROUPING object please, so bored with these lists of hundreds of items in the Scene Editor !!!!

is it too much ?

Some of these features could very well be a part of 8 yet. We still don't know a complete feature list. Wait and see.

Jabba
12-06-2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Well, the softbodies in 8 will be faster calculating then Motion Designer and I've never had much problem with collision errors in Motion Designer and it is also point based collision. And for the example you're thinking of with the crayons, a few simple segments maybe adding another hundred or two polygons would do the trick and not really add that much to calculation time.


Yep, but point based collisions aren't the best way how to manage hard body dynamics.... and I don't even mention that problem with objects without motion because all dynamics stuff will be just 'deformations'.


Originally posted by lasco
Multiple Mirror tool in Layout
…what's this ? what for ?

simple mirror (for motion) but it works on multiselections. You could see that on one of the proton's 'december' screenshots.

Gabe
12-06-2003, 10:49 AM
oh yeah I think this will become the norm, having the option of testing deformations as soon as you setup bones or as near damnit, instead of creating all the skelegons and then hubbing it over to layout blah blah blah...

But in order to make proper weight maps for the bones you'll still need to use Vertex Paint. Which is why it would be really nice if you could access Vertex Paint from layout. Then again, you'd still have to go to modeler when making morphed joints to use in smart skinning techniques. Well, I guess skelegons and modeler are still going to be an important part of rigging in Lightwave.

hrgiger
12-06-2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Gabe
But in order to make proper weight maps for the bones you'll still need to use Vertex Paint.

You don't have to use Vertex Paint For weight maps...

badllarma
12-06-2003, 11:06 AM
Funny that, I've never used vertex maps for weight maps :)

sketchyjay
12-06-2003, 11:43 AM
You forgot to add rig file for saving rigs. Proton has mentioned this twice so far. Once in the LA LW 8 preview thread and in the Dec screenshot thread. From what he has said it stores the bones with all the constraints. But has not said if it will also store the nulls etc. It would be great if we could select a null and just save the whole hierarchy.

Jay

Dodgy
12-06-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Gabe
Then again, you'd still have to go to modeler when making morphed joints to use in smart skinning techniques.

You don't have to go into modeler to make morph targets.

But you can't read rotations post IK without baking them! ARRRRRRGGGGGGGGH! Please god let that be the one thing that NT will have fixed for this release!

hrgiger
12-06-2003, 11:58 AM
Got it Sketchjay, thanks!

Dodgy,

There is supposed to be a a free plug-in called MorphDriverCF that will allow you to extract the IK rotational values without baking them. But I totally agree, hopefully Newtek will address this in Lightwave 8. We should be able to use the values from IK for jointmorphs, expressions, etc....

Dodgy
12-06-2003, 12:12 PM
Thanks HRG :)

Works a charm :)

In return, if you don't have it, get mini mo, I use it for sculpting joint morphs in layout :)

hrgiger
12-06-2003, 12:36 PM
I didn't see any mini mo on Flay. What is is and where do I get it?

Dodgy
12-06-2003, 01:50 PM
http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~fis_junk/plug/win/FIsMiniMo-i-0_4_1.zip

Basically it allows you to animate points in layout. I use it to create morphs for joints.

The procedure is this.

Set up your skeleton.
Bend a bone to the position you want, at say frame 10.
Reset the bone to the default pose at frame 11.
Add FI's Minimodrv to your object (in the deformation plugins) and open the generic plugin FI's Minimo.
At frame 10 use the Minimo panel to modify your joint's points to the right shape. Create a key using the Create button at the bottom of the interface.
At frame 11, your object will still be deformed by Minimo, but not by the bones. Use the file>save>save endomorph and give your new joint morph a name, then SAVE your object! (If you're going to use this on more than one joint, at frame 12 Clear transform (with no points selected) in Minimo and set a key. )
Open morphmixer and for the new endomorph's channel, add morphdriver as normal. You should see it going to it's morph target as normal!
Cool eh?

I would save a seperate scene just for doing this tweaking, as you may want to come back to your object and faff about with it. Minimo doesn't like you messing about with point counts, but you should be able to get around this (if you modify your mesh geometry) by just applying the old joint morph, and then applying Minimo over the top and creating the new morph from that.
To get Morphmixer to see the newly added morph, use Replace>Object to replace it with itself and Morph mixer will pick up the new morph.

Maybe I should do a tutorial about this, as it's very easy to do, but a bit complex to explain :P

Gabe
12-06-2003, 09:29 PM
You don't have to use Vertex Paint For weight maps...
I didn't mean to sound so absolute in that claim. But in my opinion, once you get used to having Vertex Paint automaticly generate your weightmaps based on your skelegons, you'll never go back to just hand painting the weightmaps. Sure you'll hand paint them to tweak them here and there, but Vertex Paint saves you so much work and just plain does a better job than you can do yourself.... but at any rate, whether or not you use Vertex Paint is somewhat besides the point, you'll still have to use modeler to set the weight maps up. My main point is that I really don't think that complete character rigging will happen only within Layout when LW 8 comes out. Modeler will still have some roles to play.

hrgiger
12-06-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Gabe
My main point is that I really don't think that complete character rigging will happen only within Layout when LW 8 comes out. Modeler will still have some roles to play.

I didn't imply that modeler won't have a part in character rigging. I was simply implying that skelegons will be used a lot less then before.

Gabe
12-06-2003, 10:22 PM
I didn't imply that modeler won't have a part in character rigging. I was simply implying that skelegons will be used a lot less then before.
Yeah, definately, I think we can agree on that. I actually wouldn't mind making my bones in Modeler with skelegons if it wasn't so damn impossible to get their rotations correct. I mean, what a jip?!? They're quick and easy to model but you have no numeric controls over their rotation?!?! Well, anyway, I'm glad a lot of the hassles involved with making the bones will be moved over to Layout.

Hervé
12-07-2003, 12:51 AM
When I read you guys, animating sounds sooo complex...... ou la la....

badllarma
12-07-2003, 01:33 AM
Hi all while we are on the subject hope someone can give me some info on a thing I'm not to sure on?
I've resently had my first go at IK eg. setting a null odject up so when it moves it controls the arm of a character all very straight forward, BUT how is it you can control the arm in XYZ but if a rotate the null object the arm does sod all? Just something thats been eating at me for a while, is it my setup?

Hervé
12-07-2003, 02:12 AM
I hope they'll remove the bugs......

anyone try this......

you see that poly.... it's an entrance door....

all the other walls (bathroom) are just square polys, so it looks ok, but this one no....... way

(joke off course)

Jabba
12-07-2003, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
I hope they'll remove the bugs......

anyone try this......

you see that poly.... it's an entrance door....

all the other walls (bathroom) are just square polys, so it looks ok, but this one no....... way

Maybe I don't understand it right but that thing on your screenshot isn't BUG at all. If you apply grid texture on some surface, it has initialy position at 0,0,0. BUT the grid texture actualy STARTS at 0,0,0 so if the BUG you want to address is that your polygon is completely red, it's because you have to shift the center of the grid texture to something else than 0,0,0. Lets say that you have a grid size 200mm, so put the POSITION at 100mm,100mm,100mm and you will have a 'grid' on your entrance instead of full color.

Dodgy
12-07-2003, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by badllarma
I've resently had my first go at IK eg. setting a null odject up so when it moves it controls the arm of a character all very straight forward, BUT how is it you can control the arm in XYZ but if a rotate the null object the arm does sod all? Just something thats been eating at me for a while, is it my setup?

In LW the goal roation doesn't affect anything in the IK chain unless you have 'match goal orientation' on for the tip of the IK chain. This is the same for a lot of 3d apps. If you want it to affect your bones, use an orient constraint or follower...

badllarma
12-07-2003, 06:47 AM
Cheers for the info Dodgy :)

hrgiger
12-07-2003, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
When I read you guys, animating sounds sooo complex...... ou la la....

Well Herve, character animation is not easy. But it's not impossible to learn either.
If I may, I might recommend to you Timothy Albee's book Lightwave 7 character animation. Now I don't use a rig too similar to Timothy's but he is very good at explaining things and it helped explain alot of things about how Lightwave itself works with bones and IK and skelegons. From that book I was able to come up with rigging solutions on my own that work for me.

If you want though, I can give you a few explanations about what's been said here.
Gabe said something about skelons and getting their rotations correct. When you set up skeleons in modeler, each one has what's called a bank rotation handle. They are made pointing a certain direction depending on which view you're adding them in modeler. You can adjust them to point whichever way you want, and the direction they point defines the direction the pitch axis will face.
Below is a shot of two skeleons in modeler with some primitives for directional reference. Notice the bank handles indicated by the red arrows, are facing towards the yellow cone. The following picture shows the bones rotational axis in Layout. BTW, you access the skeleons bank handles by using the edit skelegons tool in the detail tab. You can see that the pitch is facing the yellow cone.

hrgiger
12-07-2003, 07:37 AM
Here I've moved the skelegon's bank handle towards the green sphere. Notice now the rotational axis in Layout now has the pitch facing the green spere as well.
You may already know this but hopefully it will help someone else figure out why their bone axis's are all buggered up.
BTW, you can fix your axis in Layout as well if you didn't bother to fix the bank handles in modeler.

Gabe
12-07-2003, 05:46 PM
Gabe said something about skelons and getting their rotations correct. When you set up skeleons in modeler, each one has what's called a bank rotation handle. They are made pointing a certain direction depending on which view you're adding them in modeler. You can adjust them to point whichever way you want, and the direction they point defines the direction the pitch axis will face.

Yeah, I know you can adjust the bank in modeler but my gripe is that there is no numeric control for it. You should be able to control the Heading, Pitch and Bank the same way you can in Layout. As it is, you sort of have to 'eyeball' it.

hrgiger
12-07-2003, 06:04 PM
Well, I agre with you Gabe. I'd much rather have a numeric entry or even have it show the rotational axis in modeler as well. We just have to do with what we have for now.

I wasn't posting the example for you necessarily, just showing it for those who weren't sure about the process.

riki
12-07-2003, 06:40 PM
Great list steve, did you mention, mirroring in Layout?

hrgiger
12-07-2003, 08:30 PM
Yep, it's on there Riki.

I was kind of hoping to hear from Newtek about the list. Not necessarily to tell us about any other features I'm leaving out, but more so to correct any misinformation the list might contain. I don't want to tell people something that isn't right. Proton said there was a little misinformation on there so that's why I put a disclaimer that it might not be 100% accurate. I've taken all the information from the stuff I saw from Siggraph and of course, from other user input. So I welcome Chuck or Proton to PM me or publicly point out something that isn't correct. When they might have time of course, I understand this is probably a very busy time for them. I just wanted people to have a list to be able to refer to. I'll keep updating until it's no longer needed.

Hervé
12-08-2003, 01:57 AM
Hey HGiger, thanks, well I have this book from Albee, great book, (I have that book for a year sitting on my desk.... ), but I remember when I've tried to rig and all, I was kind of stopped cause settings all the point weights (he says to make sure no point has more than 100%...) for all the bones , like for example point #254 has 35% to bone A, 55% to bone B, and 10% to bone C, well that made me stop.... but since then I have ACS4, and rigging is then a game, but still I was not able to get nice deformations (particulary for the shoulders), so it seams I would have need to weight the model, I've tried vertex paint, but when I rigged the model with ACS4 and called the vertex paint plugin, it carshes each time....

Also, I've brought some models for archi at Dosch site (not too bad...) but the model that I am trying to do (at least pose nicely) has a separate dress (down to her knees), so I had no clue as for how to handle that dress.... I've tried MD, but it was soooooo long and had some glitches here and there (it is a dress with naked arms, long to the knees) so because of penetration, I've set up the sickness in MD a little too high , so then the dress was not touching the shoulders anymore.... grrrrr... well from there Ive kind of gave up, but I may give it a try again when LW8 comes with more power for the clothes situation...

Notice that I would not need to do a lot in animation, basically just some walks, pose, maybe say hello, or pick an object.... so then I might give it a try again..... he he...

Thanks a lot for your explanations for the Bank angle, it is more clear now.... as I thought it had something to do with the bank channel when in fact it is to orient the pitch channel.... right... ?

Maybe I'll post the model I was trying to do... (well animate...)

Thanks a lot for that useful info HGiger....

(BTW, I was reading n interview of the Korn singer, and it happened that this guy microphone stand was specialy designed for him by...... tata tata..... HRGiger.....

Cheers....
Hervé

Dodgy
12-08-2003, 02:29 AM
Herve, you shouldn't use MD for the entire dress, at least use a low poly proxy instead(and then use MDmeta plug to apply the low poly motion to your high poly object) . Even better, only use it on the flowing part of the dress, from the waist down, and use a low poly proxy for the collision object, with the head and other extremities cut off if they're never likely to collide with it. Cheat like a basket is what I am saying ;)

Hervé
12-08-2003, 02:40 AM
hey cool, thanks for the advice Dodgy.... so you're saying part of the dress is moved only by bones.... ?

Hervé
12-08-2003, 02:42 AM
btw, If I am using a toolow proxy object, then I have problems with collisions.... aka penetration.....

hrgiger
12-08-2003, 05:12 AM
Hey Herve, I'm glad that explanation helped you. It took me a while to get what they were saying about the bank handle as well. Sometimes it takes making up a setup like I did for me to see how things work.
As far as the dress thing....Yes, Dodgy is right, you should only animate part of the dress with MD. Part of it will be animated with the body with the bones and the rest, the flowing part, you will animate with MD. You can use the lo-rez version, and then apply that to the high rez one by saving out an mdd file.
I'm doing a character right now that's got a long flowing trenchcoat. I'm actually using bones/IK to animate the coat. It can be tedious but it gives me complete control of how the coat moves for the shots I want. One reason too I decided to use bones is that Lightwave 8 is just around the corner and it will have bone dynamics which means potentially I could then run a motion simulation that way. The good thing being, I can modify the motion further with the bones. Just another option to think about.

Dodgy
12-08-2003, 05:14 AM
Yeah, use bones on the top of the object, and MD for the bottom.

The thing is to get a balance between accuracy and speed. So you need to have enough polys (usually I remodel the low poly proxy from scratch to be more 'regular' in the shape of the constituent polys, so they're all fairly square with little distortion. This gives better MD deformation) to make the deformation look right, and keep the collision good, while it's still quick enough to work with. Your high poly object can be as detailed as you want as it'll be using the low poly's deformations so it should all match...

Dodgy
12-08-2003, 05:15 AM
Darn HRG you beat me to it!

Hervé
12-08-2003, 05:35 AM
thanks for explaining to a newbie like me. I seam to recall a tutorial a long time ago, dealing with bones, MD, and a batwing...

The goal was to use the bones to give it a primary move as one wants, and then running a part plug of MD (dont remember which one ....) and let MD calculates the secondary motion.... is this tut always working, I mean available..... it was back then when MD had a null to wind thingy..... just before PFX....

Later, Hervé

hrgiger
12-09-2003, 09:38 AM
Just bringing this up again in case anyone hasn't seen it yet or anyone has any corrections or additons.

hrgiger
12-10-2003, 10:33 AM
Updated the list.

Added a couple of things that are on the LW8 preview page.

Took out a couple of things that I thought were just speculation and not confirmed yet. Trying to give as correct information as possible.

NanoGator
12-18-2003, 03:34 PM
Arbitrary Frame Rendering This is great. Camera 1 render frames 1-20, 45, 47, 49 Camera 2 render frames 21-44, 46, 48. Not sure why you'd want to render a single frame from a camera in the middle of a shot? Anyone see fight club?

I can tell you why I'd use it. I've got a hankering to do some cel shaded animation, but I only want to render the keyframes. I don't want to render the LW generated in-betweens because I want it to be very close to the hand-drawn-limited-frames-look. So I could just say 1,2,4,8,12,13,14,17.. etc. Adding another camera to that would be a tool I'm sure would save me rump down the road. If I can have arbitrary resolution and anti-aliasing settings, bonus.

hrgiger
12-18-2003, 04:59 PM
That's cool Nano-gator, I didn't think of that.

I added that idea into the list...

papou
12-18-2003, 05:08 PM
maybe the list is not over...
Coming Soon: New tools that will be shipping with LW8!
http://www.greenbriarstudio.com/3D/

Wade
12-18-2003, 05:32 PM
Shipping with 8 - as in shiping at the same time - I think. But who knows I am sure there a number of features that will suprise us all.:)

KillMe
12-18-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by NanoGator
I can tell you why I'd use it. I've got a hankering to do some cel shaded animation, but I only want to render the keyframes. I don't want to render the LW generated in-betweens because I want it to be very close to the hand-drawn-limited-frames-look. So I could just say 1,2,4,8,12,13,14,17.. etc. Adding another camera to that would be a tool I'm sure would save me rump down the road. If I can have arbitrary resolution and anti-aliasing settings, bonus.

couldn't you simply place your keyframes closer together? then render out at 15 fps instead of 30?

would save having to type in the frame numbers, 2,4,6,8,10 etc etc etc etc

evenflcw
12-18-2003, 11:21 PM
Arbitrary Frame Rendering This is great. Camera 1 render frames 1-20, 45, 47, 49 Camera 2 render frames 21-44, 46, 48.

It wasn't evident from Protons december screenshots that arbitrary frame rendering could handle multiple cameras. Has this information come from somewhere else or has it been taken for granted?

Other than that it was a nice list to keep track of things.

Karmacop
12-19-2003, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by KillMe
couldn't you simply place your keyframes closer together? then render out at 15 fps instead of 30?

would save having to type in the frame numbers, 2,4,6,8,10 etc etc etc etc

Or use a frame step of 2? :rolleyes:

hrgiger
12-19-2003, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by evenflcw
It wasn't evident from Protons december screenshots that arbitrary frame rendering could handle multiple cameras. Has this information come from somewhere else or has it been taken for granted?



Yeah, I'm not sure about that, it was just a calculated guess, and Proton said there was a little misinformation in there so maybe I'll just remove that part for now.

Thanks evenflow.

KillMe
12-19-2003, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Karmacop
Or use a frame step of 2? :rolleyes:

hmmmmm damn and i thought iw as being so clever lol - amazing how something so obvious can go unnoticed

glassefx
12-19-2003, 12:30 PM
If all of these character/rigging tools are comming into fruition then I can say for sure their will be lots of different techniques for doing the same thing. This pretty much sums up lightwaves structure in a nut-shell, they are just making more low-level tools for the tool box. THe fact they are low-level is why their are so many different methodologies to skin the proverbial cat in wave.

All I will need after 8 is a new machine to run it on. Damn, 3d is a major biatch on the ole'wallet-thickness factor.