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yoshiii
07-09-2015, 09:35 AM
Hello

Will Lightwave scale well with a 4K monitor?

Dexter2999
07-09-2015, 10:08 AM
Yoshiii.

I cannot answer from experience. But I have read posts here on the forums of complaints about the text interface being too small for people on the apple retina displays. This seems like an issue that could occur with a 4k monitor as well.

But that is just a guess.

Greenlaw
07-09-2015, 10:45 AM
I don't have a 4k screen but I believe that's true.

My Wacom tablet computer isn't 4k but on its native 2560 x 1440 and 13" display, LightWaves's text and widget icons are a bit on the tiny, a-little-hard-to-read side. The default LightWave UI is not unusable on this computer but I can see how the text and widgets might be microscopic on a full-size 4k screen.

That said, the situation is much worse with Photoshop on this screen, and I've seen 'tiny UI' problems with other tools and programs too. I've given up trying to recognize the icons anymore and now I just try to remember the button positions. (Ugh!)

If you're running Windows 8, you can try using the UI scaling and text scaling controls. The problem I've found with this is that one setting that works well for one program may look horrible with another, and some programs just ignore it's settings altogether. (I think it works with LightWave but will need to check on that.)

A less desirable option is to reduce the resolution of the screen. (Then why have an ultra high-res screen?)

I'm hoping the upcoming Windows 10 will have a better solution but in many cases, it's the individual programs that need to be adaptive to high density screens and many developers have not caught up yet. (FYI, I haven't heard that Win 10 improves this yet--just wishful thinking right now.)

Hopefully, somebody actually running LightWave on a 4k display will pop in to confirm.

G.

MSherak
07-09-2015, 11:24 AM
You can set each program to use a DPI scale factor or not under win8.1. So far most programs I run on my Surface Pro 3 look great. Photoslop is the only one that just does not get at all. Course that is where I force it with the OS settings and not the preferences inside PS. So until all programs catch up to higher resolution screens space settings you will have to adjust according to the program.

Greenlaw
07-09-2015, 11:51 AM
I'm not sure I follow: Do you mean you can use different Scale settings for each program? That would be useful but I'm not sure how to do that.

Or do you just mean you can disable the feature completely for some programs (that one I know: in properties.)

Yeah, Photoshop is the worst for this. I tried their 'fix' in Preferences (2014/2015) that scales everything to 200%, but that just makes Photoshop look like a PlaySkool product on this screen. :)

Some programs, like Adobe Character Animator, have odd random issues with Windows UI scaling--for example, at 125%, parts of the UI will look fine but other parts will disappear completely. (Adobe confirmed this issue for me on their Surface Pro. It sounds like it's going to be a major thing to fix but at least they're working on it.)

Luckily, Lightwave is okay for me on this screen. A little small to read comfortably, but not too bad really.

A weird one for me is Anime Studio Pro. To compensate, it allows you to adjust its menu text size but the icons and color palette remain very tiny, so you get this weird mixture of screen UI problems.

I may have to try dropping my screen res down again.

G.

spherical
07-09-2015, 03:16 PM
Well, it all depends upon the physical dimensions of the monitor whether the text will be too small or not. To take things to extremes to illustrate the point, if you have 4K on a 3 inch screen, darn near everything will be illegible. Put that same desktop on a 3 foot screen and the situation changes dramatically. There have been quite a few threads here examining and demonstrating this issue. Some of the demonstrations were a bit Borked but users who actually have 4K screens confirmed that what was feared was indeed not the case and the UI looked fine on a desktop monitor of sufficient size.

Slartibartfast
07-09-2015, 03:31 PM
I have a 28" 4K monitor and Win7. The text on the buttons is pretty small!! I tried to mess with screen DPI settings in windows, but it didn't work well. Pop-up-menues appearing on the wrong places and stuff. It's doable with perfect vision, but not comfortable. Hope it's getting better with Win10 (hope it's A LOT better than Win8.x wich I'm totally allergic to)

HarverdGrad
07-09-2015, 03:43 PM
Blender 3D took care of this issue a few years ago.
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?321487-Why-Blender-s-GUI-is-Absolutely-Brilliant-and-forward-thinking

It really is becoming a fantastic full featured 3D Package.

Greenlaw
07-09-2015, 04:39 PM
Well, it all depends upon the physical dimensions of the monitor whether the text will be too small or not.
Yes, of course. My example above isn't accurate to what you can expect on a typical full-size 4k display, it can only serve as a relative example. The resolution of the Wacom Cintiq Companion 2 is over 60% that of a 4k monitor and maybe about a quarter of size of a full sized 4k monitor, so the actual dpi density is a bit higher. I imagine the issues I described above might not be as bad on a full sized 4k monitor. (I'm assuming about 50". A smaller 4k display, say 26", will probably be more comparable to what I'm seeing.)

But some of the UI scaling issues mentioned are not really resolution dependent, rather inconsistencies in how Microsoft and the various software developers have approached this problem. I'm not sure what can be done about that. It's going take some time for all the devs to get this sorted out, longer if a given dev isn't informed or concerned about this yet.

In the meantime, just have to deal with the annoyances. :)

G.

yoshiii
07-09-2015, 05:31 PM
Well, it all depends upon the physical dimensions of the monitor whether the text will be too small or not. To take things to extremes to illustrate the point, if you have 4K on a 3 inch screen, darn near everything will be illegible. Put that same desktop on a 3 foot screen and the situation changes dramatically. There have been quite a few threads here examining and demonstrating this issue. Some of the demonstrations were a bit Borked but users who actually have 4K screens confirmed that what was feared was indeed not the case and the UI looked fine on a desktop monitor of sufficient size.

How about a 28" monitor?

Does anyone know if Octane has a problem?

Greenlaw
07-09-2015, 06:07 PM
Blender 3D took care of this issue a few years ago.
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?321487-Why-Blender-s-GUI-is-Absolutely-Brilliant-and-forward-thinking.
That does sound nice! I'll have to install it tonight if only to see how well the scaling works. (And while I'm at it, I might even check out a few other things.) :p

spherical
07-09-2015, 11:30 PM
How about a 28" monitor?

As Slartibartfast stated above, that's on the edge of comfort. LightWave's UI will be able to fill the screen, or be windowed on a 4K monitor and be of sufficient size while doing so, but its menu system has yet to be brought into the 21st Century such that it will scale with the font choice. IOW, you can specify any font and size you want, but the other half of the operation, that of expanding the menus, panels, dialogues, etc., that the fonts appear in to match the font choice was left off the list of things to get done. Hence, they get truncated and, as such, the UI becomes less than optimum unless you have a really good memory of what your UI layout contains and what it all should say.

madno
07-09-2015, 11:56 PM
I have bad eyes but a 27 inch 2540x1440 display. LW is usable on this one but the text is already quite small. If it would be smaller it would be unusable for me. Increasing the dpi settings of Windows works to some extent but several text elements get cut then in the GUI. I would say in its current state LW is not ready for 4K.

JohnMarchant
07-12-2015, 11:39 AM
Its it not possible to increase the font size using -f"Segoe UI [email protected]" on the LW shortcut/properties/target. Just change the 6 and the font for whatever size and font you want. However it will only work when launching from the LW Shortcuts not from within the program.

madno
07-13-2015, 01:01 AM
Great tip :thumbsup:

This makes life better for me. If LW3DG would just put those daily life savers into the preferences (arghhhhhh).

Found a good free font (Lekton) on http://www.fontsquirrel.com/

But it already starts to cut the text due to the fact that the font size increases but not the GUI elements around it. I doubt that it will work on 4K. But again that's maybe just me with my not so good eyes.

128920

By the way do you also have such a super tip on how to increase the size or visibility of the vertice cursor in Modeler?
I changed the color scheme to something which I liike much more than the default one, but the vertice cursor is now nearly invisible (just for fun you can watch the attached screenshot at full size and try to find it).

128921

I made a feature request long time ago and got the answer from support "that's more like a feature request". Ah, mh, yes, sure. Unfortunately it never made it into one of the LW versions since then.

JohnMarchant
07-13-2015, 01:23 AM
Hi

Sorry I don't have any tips for that. Actually it was Matt Gorner who let us know that tip some time ago and he is probably the best person to talk to about anything to do with the LW UI.

BeeVee
07-13-2015, 03:16 AM
And of course, it is in the documentation, sigh :D (page 1187 in the 2015 update 2 PDF).

B

madno
07-13-2015, 10:49 PM
Hi BeeVee,
you are right, it is in the manual.
But I would have never come to the conclusion that the entry "Font Specification" in the toc could mean "adjust GUI Font size".
But I admit that I anyway did not read the manual regarding the high dpi issue (but don't take me wrong, I read it about other topics and must say it is a really good manual).

But my general hope is, that a feature to adjust the GUI for high dpi displays gets implementet; not only a half way workaround with font size. And if it must be a work around then please, please, please put it into the preferences. Nearly all software I use has its settings in some kind of preferences dialog. Never ever I would asume that one has to right click on a desktop icon, click on properties, go to the Shortcut rider and enter someting into a field called target to adjust the GUI (and this is true even though we make software ourself which has start parameters).

In general I don't understand how this high dpi issue could be ignored by so many DCC software makers. LW3DG is not alone here. Fusion, Vue, Substance (not yet installed v5 so only refering up 4.6), CS6 (don't know about CC) all don't have a GUI scaling feature (why has the free Blender a solution for this but so many commercial vendors not?). The 2560x1440 27 inch displays are on the market for many, many years. 4K displays are also there for some time now. They even appear in form of tablets. It is great to get new cool tools in a software but the GUI is the main entry point to them. Should'nt the GUI be the first thing to take care of? It is like you get a super cool car but the vendor forces you to enter it by crawling through the window and then the steering wheel is equipped with needles pointing outwards.

spherical
07-13-2015, 11:20 PM
(why has the free Blender a solution for this but so many commercial vendors not?).

Because there are more people coding it... all the time.

MrFurious
07-17-2015, 06:56 AM
nice colour scheme would you be ok sharing your settings?

[edit] ......... doh!

madno
07-18-2015, 02:53 AM
It's attached.

When I set the colors I noticed that the background color in Modeler is not always coming from the CFG file. Might have been a mistake on my side, but I think I needed to change it in the GUI.

And I deleted the color entries in the hub cfg. Seem so they don't do anything (but it's just a guess).

And with the light grey background you might face the problem with the point cursor not being very visible anymore.

Make a backup of your CFGs first ! ;-)


Background:

For me there were four main reasons to fiddle with the colors:


Contrast: There is a medical rule of thumb: The older the eyes the less sharp their vision (tiny text on high dpi displays becomes a challange) and the less they can distinguish contrast. You might know those menues in restaurants where they have small brown text on a lighter creamy brown background. To make it worse they light it with a candle only. Watch elderly people trying to read such a menue. The default color scheme of Newtek's forum is an example of this (middle gray text on darker grey background = not enough contrast for weaker eyes). I am sure the person who chose those colors has good eyes. Same in LW, so I made the GUI text lighter than default. But wouldn't Modeler's black and white concept be perfect then, you ask. Yes, but here comes reason two:
Representation of light: For me it is easier to imagine the future scene if Modeler appears to be lit somehow. The black background looked wrong to me. But that's only me maybe.
Foreground, background, selection etc.: I don't remember all details anymore, but I needed to fiddle with it after I started to change the main colors. I think important were the selection colors. I made them screaming saturated to know what I am working with.
Surrounding light: I use my computer at day and night. My room's window has a curtain but this does not fully block the light. When it's dark outside a desk lamp is lighting the wall behind the displays. I found that calibrating the displays to 160 candela is a good match for both conditions. I then tried to fit the dark and light areas of LW's GUI into this. This worked well for me except of the background color. As said above, the tiny vertex cursor is the culprit. Normally I would make the background even lighter to be perfect for me. But I can't because the cursor becomes invisible on my high dpi displays then.


Please take all this as my personal opinion related to my personal vision capabilities related to the high dpi of my displays.

spherical
07-18-2015, 03:26 AM
And I deleted the color entries in the hub cfg. Seem so they don't do anything (but it's just a guess).

UI colors in Hub config was v11.5 and earlier. Now, they are in Layout and Modeler configs, so you can have different color schemes for each if you like.