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raw-m
07-09-2015, 07:23 AM
I'm at last looking at using FiberFX on the Mac as it now seems to be working without crashing every 5 mins, as it did before!

Can someone share some example of how the nodes can be used, specifically the Amplitude, Vector and Length inputs? They seem like they might be quite useful but I can't find any examples or documentation - the explanation in the manual hurts my brain! Anyone have something to get the ball rolling?

Dodgy
07-09-2015, 07:55 PM
128886
Here's a couple of node setups for FFX I've been playing around with. One is a Toon shader for hair, one has a rippling textured deforming the hair with a rainbow colouring and another for texturing FFX tubes. Hope they're useful. I'm glad you've been finding it less crashy, I find it's a lot better now than it used to be.

raw-m
07-10-2015, 11:37 AM
Hi Dodgy. Many thanks for sharing! Haven't had time today but looking forward to going through it soon.

A bit of weirdness just to start. The Fibre Texturing looks good, the other two look OK in OGL but don't show in VPR - the Toon one crashes LW when flicking to VPR, hoping I haven't spoken too soon!

Thomas Leitner
07-11-2015, 04:23 AM
....The Fibre Texturing looks good, the other two look OK in OGL but don't show in VPR...
Hi,
there are two typs of fibers in LW: pixel filter fibers and volume fibers. You cannot see pixel filter fibers in VPR but they render fine. The FFX_Rainbow.lws uses pixel filter fibers.

ciao
Thomas

raw-m
07-11-2015, 04:29 AM
A-ha! All part of the learning curve, thanks Thomas.

I'm find them incredible good for adding tubes to stuff, forget hairs! If I have a network or tubes that need adding then a single 2 point poly chain gives me the options of adding loads of tubes that follow its contours, with at added ability of adding randomness to the paths. Very interesting!

jeric_synergy
07-11-2015, 11:27 AM
Mark,would like to see some of those tube examples! :thumbsup:

raw-m
07-11-2015, 12:21 PM
I'll polish up and post tomorrow :D

jeric_synergy
07-11-2015, 12:56 PM
You da man. :bowdown:

Greenlaw
07-11-2015, 03:57 PM
To add to Thomas' comments, you can see the pixel fibers in VPR if you enable Volume Only. The catch is that it will render significantly slower.

Sometimes I will temporarily enable Volume mode so I can use VPR to preview fiber looks and lighting, but first I will reduce the density to make this more practical. Naturally, you should write down the full density value before you reduce it so you know what to go back to when you're done.

Oh, and don't forget: Limited Region is your friend when setting up FiberFX.

Note: If you're in Volume Only mode and making changes, save scene iterations and settings frequently. If the fibers are dense, VPR can get crashy.

You also want to avoid drastic changes to fiber fx geometry while VPR is active (like changing the number or length of fibers, for example.) If you need to make such changes, switch off VPR first, make the physical changes, and then re-enable VPR. Making shading and lighting changes should be fine while VPR is active, but save often just in case.

Hope this helps.

raw-m
07-12-2015, 07:49 AM
Thanks Greenlaw, yes it helps. Not sure I like working by-the seat-of-my-pants like that! I don't want the stress every time I change a parameter.

First thing I've noticed is that I get an instant crash when Activating a 2 point poly chain that has a few stray 1 Vertex points!

With no effort at all, I've got a ton of wires which could really come in handy. There's about 3x 2 point poly chains here and I've got a whole network in about 2 mins. Really good for vains if you animate the Fibre Width, as well.

A lot more to play with but wary of the frequent crashes.

Greenlaw
07-12-2015, 11:04 AM
First thing I've noticed is that I get an instant crash when Activating a 2 point poly chain that has a few stray 1 Vertex points... That sounds about right...guides need to be clearly and consistently defined for fibers to follow them. That would be true for any hair/fiber system.

Also, having stray geometry can result in unpredictable dynamics simulations, so you want to be sure the data is clean.

G,

raw-m
07-12-2015, 11:33 AM
I'd be happier with a warning, rather than a crash.

jeric_synergy
07-12-2015, 11:39 AM
What I don't understand about the programming/debugging cycle is: if a specific situation (here, 1 vertex polys) is a KNOWN issue that has no application in the feature (1 vertex polys don't make sense in the FFX context, right?), why aren't they just detected and IGNORED? IOW, shouldn't the feature clean its own data in non-ambiguous situations?

I'm sure there's still valid situations that would cause the app to crash*, but filtering obvious crap out would reduce the USERS' workload. AND increase user interactivity because FEWER CRASHES.


*like, I bet, technically valid 2pt polys with the points entirely coincident might be an issue.

Greenlaw
07-12-2015, 02:00 PM
I'd be happier with a warning, rather than a crash.

It has to do with the massive quantity of geometry being changed repeatedly and 'on the fly' in VPR. That's not a excuse for crashing but you need consider what you're asking LightWave and VPR to do 'instantly' and fully ray-traced. Even if it didn't crash with these types of changes, it would probably be a lot faster to make the changes without VPR active anyway.

In general, VPR can get very unstable if you're constantly swapping out any geometry or changing sub-D levels while it's active, it's not just when you're changing a hundred thousand or more FiberFX guides. Even Instances will crash VPR if you keep swapping out the source objects or otherwise changing the meshes themselves.

In short, if you want to avoid/minimize the VPR crashing, make your geometry changes (FiberFX, Instancer, or other geometry) with VPR off. You should be able to make shading and lighting changes, and many styling changes to FiberFX with VPR just fine--the main limitation here will probably be the amount of RAM you have.

I would prefer it never crashed too but there are good work habits you can develop to avoid many stability issues.

G.

Greenlaw
07-12-2015, 02:16 PM
All that said, most of the time I prefer to use f9 with limited region when tweaking FiberFX settings. It's usually a lot faster and more accurate, and it usually won't crash. I sometimes use VPR for FiberFX shading and lighting changes, also with limited region enabled, but with caution (i.e., save scene and settings often,) and only if I think I'm actually getting something out of it that I can't with the f9 check.

raw-m
07-21-2015, 01:25 AM
No nodes here, but this is what I've been playing with so far:
https://vimeo.com/133901968


https://vimeo.com/133901968

erikals
10-07-2018, 06:17 AM
:bump:

running 11.62, the rainbow example crashed not only VPR/Layout, but the whole computer.  [ouch!]

is this fixed in 2015 or 2018 ?

erikals
10-08-2018, 02:19 AM
PC crashed once again, without nodes active,
must be another factor,
gradient editor perhaps...

erikals
10-08-2018, 02:44 AM
a darn serious bug,

guesstimate >
using gradient tangent slope (or perhaps gradient only) causes CPU to run into overload and crash the PC
since the CPU is hot, you have to wait a few minutes, or the PC will crash a Second time just minutes after a restart. so, wait 5-10 minutes.

looks like 11.63 is up for a test run, hope it was fixed, unless i choose to skip it all together...
i'll assume 2018 won't have this problem.

MonroePoteet
10-08-2018, 08:34 AM
For me, the FFX_Rainbow scene doesn't crash Layout or my PC under LW11.6.3 or LW2015.3:

143041 LW11.6.3 - 21.7 sec
143042 LW2015.3 - 23.4 sec

It also doesn't crash LW2018.0.6, but it's not the same test - FFX attributes aren't correctly imported into LW2018 from the old scene, so it's just tan colored hair, not the rainbow.

mTp

erikals
10-08-2018, 09:21 AM
Thank You for info,

forgot to mention the crash happens after a few minutes.

guess i'll be going 11.63 ...or wait till LW2020 arrives...

thanks again, valuable input   :)

MonroePoteet
10-08-2018, 09:53 AM
I may not be reproducing the issue correctly, though. I just loaded the scene and rendered a frame - no problems. It sounds like maybe you're not rendering, but getting into VPR and either the CPU or GPU "cranks up" to render, wait a few minutes and your PC overheats and crashes. I doubt I'd be able to reproduce it here since my PC governs itself based upon internal temperatures, reducing clock rate / core utilization when it needs to.

If you want to provide specific steps for reproducing it, I'll try it under LW11.6.3 and LW2015.3. As I said, LW2018 doesn't load the rainbow characteristics of the FFX, so it's not a comparible test.

mTp

erikals
10-08-2018, 02:34 PM
thanks   :)

i think i'm too far away from knowing how to reproduce it, so i think i'll leave it alone for now.

and will bump this thread if a solution arrives.

LW2018 and beyond should be fine since its FiberFX is polygon based.  (i presume)

https://i.imgur.com/iAv5b1S.gif

jwiede
10-08-2018, 04:20 PM
LW2018 and beyond should be fine since its FiberFX is polygon based.  (i presume)

Hang on, I'm confused, how can that be it? If the fibers weren't geometry/physical they wouldn't even show up in VPR previously, right? QED...it's entirely possible the shading/material computations themselves are causing the overheat, even with physical/geometry fibers.

However, I'd be more concerned, at a system-level, that any app is causing your machine is overheat itself to shutdown. That sounds like some kind of cooling problem occurring, or maybe CPU issue. What are your hw specs? Are you getting these kinds of thermal shutdowns with any other packages?

erikals
10-08-2018, 05:27 PM
Hang on, I'm confused, how can that be it? If the fibers weren't geometry/physical they wouldn't even show up in VPR previously, right?
i could be wrong, but i don't think so. Classic hair simulation acts more like advanced PhotoShop strokes. (as far as i know)
this is why classic hair simulation has great antialiasing.


However, I'd be more concerned, at a system-level, that any app is causing your machine is overheat itself to shutdown. That sounds like some kind of cooling problem occurring, or maybe CPU issue. What are your hw specs? Are you getting these kinds of thermal shutdowns with any other packages?
i know, strange to get that shutdown.
only happens in LightWave 11.62 when tweaking that file.
haven't had shutdowns as far as i can recall with this i5 cpu with other apps.
i5 / 12GB ram / Jetway HI05 H55
should be fine.
looks like i won't use that specific FiberFX effect after all, going with colored lights instead, so, good for now.

thanks for chiming in though, i really do appreciate the advice and help.

and i'll assume this is fixed either in 2015/2018

jwiede
10-08-2018, 06:58 PM
That's a bit worrying, though, as I5 is recent enough that it should be dropping clock-speed, etc. to handle thermal runaway, rather than just cutting out. I suspect a more likely cause is inadequate power supply, such that with everything running and a heavy RAM and OGL load, you're pulling some voltage domain too low and it resets. What's your PS wattage, and GPU(s)?

erikals
10-08-2018, 08:29 PM
a regular 430W and a 660Ti... so should be good   (should be..)

jwiede
10-08-2018, 09:35 PM
a regular 430W and a 660Ti... so should be good   (should be..)

That's actually pushing your luck a bit. 450W is the "bare minimum" recommendation by Nvidia for a 660Ti.

I think you might want to replace your PS with something a bit beefier (650W or more), ASAP, as that appears to be a much more likely culprit for the issue you're seeing.

erikals
10-09-2018, 03:52 AM
hm, had a new crash with no LightWave running (firefox only)

seems the computer has started shutting down on though tasks...
didn't happen before, i guess the hardware got tired along the way (?)

agh, oh well... i'm switching PC soon anyway, so hope that solves it. think it should.

thanks again    https://i.imgur.com/tJGL61i.png