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libneon
06-24-2015, 12:03 PM
I see a fair amount of people who moved to MODO from Lightwave. Anyone here done the reverse?

Just curious what might have motivated the change as I look over both packages. (already have Lightwave 9, not MODO)

hrgiger
06-24-2015, 01:26 PM
There are many who still use both, myself included. Used version 401 through 601 and then dropped it for a while. Just recently picked up a license for Modo 901. There are advantages for both packages. You can certainly say that Modo is growing at a faster pace of development since they merged with The Foundry, but there are some areas of Modo that are still sorely lacking that make me glad to have the option to still use LightWave. I can't depend on either to completely satisfy what I want out of them so it's just preferable to have the option to use either.

Sensei
06-24-2015, 03:05 PM
One my client said Modo is bad at high poly count scenes. And he is thinking about going back to LW (or other package).


You can certainly say that Modo is growing at a faster pace of development since they merged with The Foundry,

Corporate development doesn't mean fast work.. Rather reverse..
Every change has to be discussed to death with supervisor programmers, management etc.
Instead of programming, there are meetings..
Good if programmer want to do nothing, and still be paid.

hrgiger
06-24-2015, 03:18 PM
One my client said Modo is bad at high poly count scenes. And he is thinking about going back to LW (or other package).



Corporate development doesn't mean fast work.. Rather reverse..
Every change has to be discussed to death with supervisor programmers, management etc.
Instead of programming, there are meetings..
Good if programmer want to do nothing, and still be paid.

Well you only have to look at the fact that the Modo releases have only gotten larger and the time between releases has grown shorter to see the pace they are keeping. But again, as I mentioned, there are some things about Modo that are lacking that make me glad to still also use LightWave. And its not that Modo is bad at higher polycount scenes, it's actually better. Its that scene management for larger scenes leaves a lot to be desired in Modo. Deformations/rig evaluations are also quite slow. But it just depends on what you need it for. Most of my work is in modeling and I'm quite tired of LW3DG ignoring modeler.

bobakabob
06-24-2015, 05:11 PM
Has anyone here truly enjoyed modelling in Maya, Max or Softimage? True Newtek have neglected Modeler over the years but it's still ahead of the game largely thanks to its comprehensive toolset, LWCad and the innovatory genius of 3rd Powers plugins. There are hints LW3dG will give Modeler more tlc.

hrgiger
06-24-2015, 06:19 PM
Has anyone here truly enjoyed modelling in Maya, Max or Softimage? True Newtek have neglected Modeler over the years but it's still ahead of the game largely thanks to its comprehensive toolset, LWCad and the innovatory genius of 3rd Powers plugins. There are hints LW3dG will give Modeler more tlc.

Well, that's like going to a Maya, Max, or Softimage board and asking if anyone here truly enjoys modeling in LightWave. You'll get few positive answers.

And obviously I'm a big proponent for LWCAD. But I think you'll find if you're given them an honest appraisal that even programs like Max and Maya have quite extensive modeling capabilities and its all non-destructive and there are numerous 3rd party tools extending them as well. And lets be honest, Modeler is slow and lacks a lot of basic functionality that most other programs take for granted. I can list all those things if you wish but they have been listed ad nauseam by numerous others who have also been frustrated by Newtek's apparent lack of concern for the state of its modeling toolset. We'll just have to agree to disagree on Modeler being ahead of the game. I don't want to take anything away from your enjoyment of it or anyone else's for that matter, but there are so many incredibly simple things that are easy to do in X software and not so much in modeler. Is it worthless? Of course not, there are a lot of things that are quick to do in modeler and its those things and LWCAD that keep me using it today. But ahead of the game would not exactly be my assessment.

Chris S. (Fez)
06-24-2015, 07:28 PM
I will be brief because, among other reasons, my lady friend will not tolerate me pecking away at a cell phone. Lightwave will get you 90% there in a fraction of the time as most programs. Here's the thing...as long as you are not working on The Hobbit, chances are Modeler and Lightwave are more than capable of serving your needs if not making you look amazing.

This is my opinion.

But yes, that last 10% is a *****. My point is, for 90 percent of broadcasting or print jobs that last 10 percent is not necessary.

Also, I am firmly convinced Rob and the Lightwave team are working overtime on that last 10%.

SquishyAni
06-24-2015, 08:15 PM
Having used Both Maya and LW, all I remember, as I left the animation labs, was the frustration I had modeling in Maya. I felt like I could get the models done 4 times faster using LW over Maya. Granted, that was years ago, so I don't know how Maya has changed since then with modeling. But still to this day, I can use LW to mock up ideas instead of having to always start with concept on paper. Its cool to be able to jump in and almost "sketch" out an idea in 3D to start.

lightscape
06-24-2015, 08:58 PM
Modo and Lw user for more than 10 years. But these are not the main 3d appz I use now.
After more than 10 freaking years I'm fed up with Modo and focusing more on lightwave as a secondary app.
I was attracted to Modo's unified environment and "new" code base.
Well after more than a decade its not anywhere near as good as what autodesk or maxon or blender can offer. Its best modelling workflow are essentially copied from lightwave even its destructive nature. Mediocre sculpting and painting tools that really can't compare to zbrush or 3dcoat.
Horrible scene and render management and organization. Its easy to get lost in a complex scene if you haven't touched the scene in a while.
The animation system they keep building on is just too much their own style of "innovative" workflow just like the shadertree. Its not easy to pickup when coming from another app. Yeah its not supposed to be like maya, etc but its too different setting things up.
As a modelling tool its good but its too expensive at its current price to keep using it for that purpose.

spigolo
06-25-2015, 05:34 AM
The more I learn 3dsmax or Maya the more I appreciate the modeler.
Despite the facts that in these applciations you have more interactive tools, faster feedback etc. you then spend hours try to make things precise...
In lightwawe is so easy to decompose a model between the layers and you have more tools to align points (the info windows i.e) to easily assign same coordinates to a bunch of them etc..
Also even a simple tool like "absolute size" which I use a lot when modeling becomes a dream in 3dsmax or maya when you have to rescale or change easily the dimensions or distance between some elements..

stiff paper
06-25-2015, 06:08 AM
Modo has achieved what I thought was utterly impossible: it's made me appreciate and enjoy Maya's workflows. I doubt that's what Luxology was aiming for. (Don't get me wrong; Maya has always been capable, I just never really enjoyed using it.)

Modo has an excellent renderer and decent modeling tools, but for me personally, everything else in there is horrible to use. I find it completely incomprehensible that the people who were originally responsible for the way LightWave works could produce something that's such a mess and so lacking in clarity. Aside from the renderer and modeling, it must all have been designed by somebody that had nothing to do with that stuff in LW. It must have. I can't make sense of it otherwise.

I doubt anybody's leaving modo at the moment. Modo is "hot" right now. Also, LightWave is missing a LOT of tools that modo has, so in a side by side features comparison, LW doesn't come off very well at all. That doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of people picking up a copy of LW in addition to having modo.

I suppose I should point out that most people really seem to like the way modo works and I'm in a tiny minority for disliking it. People also do plenty of really good work in modo. But... yeuch. Tried it. Not for me, thanks.

Curly_01
06-25-2015, 06:23 AM
I was actually planning to pick up Modo back again and upgrade to 901. It has better instancing tools, it has node based particles, OpenVDB support, the assembly stuff seems pretty cool, the character and animation layers are implemented. Brad Peebler is one of the best marketing people in the industry. He talks to his customers in modcast. Communication is not Newteks strong point, everyone knows that. I was planning to leave Lightwave for what it was and upgrade Modo. When someday somehow somewhere Newtek is going to release another version, I'll take another look at it. (Sorry for the bashing, but as mentioned in previous posts, we hate the silence and not knowing whether the software is worth our time studying it. If they could show teaser videos or something like that, that would lower the frustration a bit. I really liked the spring constraint and vehicle stuff and also genoma-> You'll spend thousands of extra bucks on buying plugins for that in other packages.) Just communicate with your customers like Brad does.

Lewis
06-25-2015, 06:25 AM
There are hints LW3dG will give Modeler more tlc.

May I ask where did you see those hints ?

probiner
06-25-2015, 03:54 PM
Has anyone here truly enjoyed modelling (...)Softimage?
Depends on the subject. But for me it's much more enjoyable to make assets there. And modeling operators can even be part of animation setups and not just to shape things. I use curves a lot there to block volumes, something I can't in LW because it has no interactive patching or objects. It has simple and useful gizmos and snapping, soft selection, etc, etc... Really hard to compare to LW really... They are different paradigms.

bobakabob
06-25-2015, 04:58 PM
May I ask where did you see those hints ?

There is this... It's been there for some time
https://www.lightwave3d.com/careers/

On Facebook, Tim Jenison himself recently asked users to evaluate LW. A very interesting and mostly constructive discussion. Lino always gives the impression the team are listening in his forum responses.

IMHO the plugin developers 3rd Powers, Sensei and LWCad are keeping Modeler not just relevant but innovatory. Hopefully LW3dg realise that they have a remarkable app which they should really start pushing again. It used to be a big selling point in 3d and recently the independent plugin writers have raised its profile. Of course 3d modelling is all subjective and depends on what you want to do. Character design? CAD? We're spoilt for choice these days. Maya now has a sharp economically well designed toolset. But can't say I really miss the advantages of Nurbs and the history stack. Max I've always found clunky though there are plenty who love its technical approach. In Modeler if there isn't a native function, there are plugins out there to do just about anything. Ok it could do with handling more polys but we have Zbrush for that which plays very well with LW.

bobakabob
06-25-2015, 05:12 PM
The more I learn 3dsmax or Maya the more I appreciate the modeler.
Despite the facts that in these applciations you have more interactive tools, faster feedback etc. you then spend hours try to make things precise...
In lightwawe is so easy to decompose a model between the layers and you have more tools to align points (the info windows i.e) to easily assign same coordinates to a bunch of them etc..
Also even a simple tool like "absolute size" which I use a lot when modeling becomes a dream in 3dsmax or maya when you have to rescale or change easily the dimensions or distance between some elements..

Agree... As smart as Maya is, Modeler feels far snappier and faster. All subjective of course... And modelling in Max - users deserve a medal. I'm always in awe at their patience.
Btw, Sorry if these posts are a bit OT... just banter. As a Groboto fan I'd love to try out Mesh Fusion but weirdly as a LW user Modo has always felt alien. Interesting to read users views.

Snosrap
06-25-2015, 09:14 PM
I went to Modo from LW on my home machine while still using LW exclusively at work. I essentially gave up on Modo at 601 and now use LW for 99% of my 3D work at home as well. Modo has a more modern architecture and has seen pretty fast development, but in the end LW is just faster with essentially the same render results as I've seen great great work from both apps and not so great stuff. Also LW has LWCad and being a product designer in the furniture industry LWCad is a huge boon to quickly develop molding profiles and save huge libraries of them and instantly add them to faces and curves. Also being able to select through them to pick the perfect one for your design really speeds up development. LWCad is the deal breaker for me. Modo has something similar to LWCad but is nowhere near as robust. Also in the furniture field there is a need to create decorative hardware and Modeler's subdivision surfaces work great for that type of work. Modo has strong subD's as well, with solid edge weighting and creasing. But in the end it's just not as fast as Modeler in the workflow department - for me - some will argue that point. That's okay, people need to use what they are comfortable with and still get the job done.

Lewis
06-26-2015, 01:36 AM
There is this... It's been there for some time
https://www.lightwave3d.com/careers/

On Facebook, Tim Jenison himself recently asked users to evaluate LW. A very interesting and mostly constructive discussion. Lino always gives the impression the team are listening in his forum responses.

IMHO the plugin developers 3rd Powers, Sensei and LWCad are keeping Modeler not just relevant but innovatory. Hopefully LW3dg realise that they have a remarkable app which they should really start pushing again. It used to be a big selling point in 3d and recently the independent plugin writers have raised its profile. Of course 3d modelling is all subjective and depends on what you want to do. Character design? CAD? We're spoilt for choice these days. Maya now has a sharp economically well designed toolset. But can't say I really miss the advantages of Nurbs and the history stack. Max I've always found clunky though there are plenty who love its technical approach. In Modeler if there isn't a native function, there are plugins out there to do just about anything. Ok it could do with handling more polys but we have Zbrush for that which plays very well with LW.

That carrer offer is there for 2 years if not more so if you are relying on THAT as modeling innovation and possible update then you are in for big dissapointment since theystill didn't hire that modeling DEV and they fired only one full time modeling DEV they had last year (Ikeda).

Also 3rd party plugins are NOT innovation of LW or NTs innovation. And on the other hand neither of those 3rd party plugins are innovation and other apps have that functionality native or by plugin long long ago.

So basically you are reading between lines s you see fit but they never said or offered modeling roadmap/answers to prove that point you are describing as a sign of innovation in modeling upgrade.

And no LWM can't do all what competition can with or without plugins since it lacks tools for some tasks. It's been explained many times what are missing tools and it's been that way for years and years. Ybrush cant compensate for lach of speed and i can give you dozens ofexamples i hit on weekly basis work with CAD data and arch-viz hi polycount where zbrush is/would be useless since it isnot it's main type of work or intention to be used.

Snosrap
06-26-2015, 06:19 AM
and they fired only one full time modeling DEV they had last year (Ikeda).

Just to be clear, David Ikeda did NOT get fired, he quit on his own terms.

libneon
06-26-2015, 06:24 AM
It would be interesting if Newtek integrated some 3rd-party plugins into LW the way MODO did with MeshFusion. Since everyone speaks highly of them it would seem to make sense to invest there rather than start from scratch. Of course, that would require the plugin authors being open to it.

Lewis
06-26-2015, 06:42 AM
Just to be clear, David Ikeda did NOT get fired, he quit on his own terms.

Fair enough, Although I've heard "both version" so Ok let's say the let him go :).

Regardless of which one is 100% true point is that they (NT/LWG3D) don't have Lead/full time modeling DEV for long time by now.

Snosrap
06-26-2015, 07:04 AM
Fair enough, Although I've heard "both version" so Ok let's say the let him go :).

Regardless of which one is 100% true point is that they (NT/LWG3D) don't have Lead/full time modeling DEV for long time by now.

David went into considerable detail on his FB page as to why HE decided to leave. True there was some differences as to what he wanted to do and the direction NT wanted him to take the app, but those things happen all the time in an employee employer relationship. The big red flag for me is why on earth would it take so long for NT to be able to find a replacement. Is NT not a good place to work? Is the pay below market? Are there no qualified programmers out there? This is one area where Modo has advantage and that is the main programmers are not employees, they are business partners have a vested say in the direction of the app.

bobakabob
06-26-2015, 11:24 AM
@Lewis
Hmmm... do you know for sure no one has been hired despite the advert? Unfortunately I'm not Columbo so don't know one way or another. Yes everyone agrees there has been very slow development of Modeler. I do believe LW3DG are listening though, they understandably don't want to get involved in the banter on these forums as unfortunately it led to some horrendous trolling and bickering in the past. However the Tim Jenison Facebook discussion was lively, mostly constructive and suggests NT take audience feedback seriously. Also all apps have their weaknesses and unfortunately LW's strengths are often overlooked in these discussions. I frequently wonder what potential LWavers or newbies make of the negative tone of some threads here. It's great - indeed vital - to evaluate constructively and suggest improvements but we should be realistic. LW has always been one of the cheapest "all in one" Swiss Army Knives. Since using LW 5.5 I've never expected it to do everything.

Snosrap
06-26-2015, 11:59 AM
However the Tim Jenison Facebook discussion was lively, mostly constructive and suggests NT take audience feedback seriously.

Is that something you can provide a link to?

Lewis
06-26-2015, 02:20 PM
@Lewis
Hmmm... do you know for sure no one has been hired despite the advert?

If i tell you that I do know what will you ask me next :)?



Unfortunately I'm not Columbo so don't know one way or another. Yes everyone agrees there has been very slow development of Modeler. I do believe LW3DG are listening though, they understandably don't want to get involved in the banter on these forums as unfortunately it led to some horrendous trolling and bickering in the past. However the Tim Jenison Facebook discussion was lively, mostly constructive and suggests NT take audience feedback seriously. Also all apps have their weaknesses and unfortunately LW's strengths are often overlooked in these discussions. I frequently wonder what potential LWavers or newbies make of the negative tone of some threads here. It's great - indeed vital - to evaluate constructively and suggest improvements but we should be realistic. LW has always been one of the cheapest "all in one" Swiss Army Knives. Since using LW 5.5 I've never expected it to do everything.

I've been constructive (and still Am) whenver is possible. Reported tons of bugs and feature requests and other stuff as mockups/feature videos and none of that helped us to get new modeling code/base/tools and we still have similar limits (in modleing) as we had in LW 5, 6, 7,8,9,10,..... I'am also using other apps so i can celarly see what misses in LW especially LWModeler. Also I hear that phrase "LWG3D is listening" a LOT. Can you maybe explain what do you think that really means in this case ? I'm trully interested what do you think that means since in my world just listening isn't enough/helping. They need to do some work on it after all that listening and listening for years and skipping modeling part release after release and still "listening".
Who gives a damn aobut listening, we need some acting / movement. Reality is that they simply have no much interest for modeling part of LW, they just wont/can't say that openly in public so people usually just assume (people always read between lines and usually what they like/see fit in their mind) release after release that they are listening/working on it for next release and that's been goign on for decade by now :). Luckily they still have enough users who are willing to let that Half app upgrades pass easily. I just hope they'll realize it before it's too late 'coz i love using LW evne with it's pitfalls and use it whenever I can (even if is sometime slower than in other apps) unless is somethign what LW really can't do.

Also discussion on Facebook is not really somethign i'd call proffessional or take for serious as their commitment to do that. They have forum, newsletter and WEB page for LW. If they are serious about that they should post official news on those mediums and not just chat about it on Facebook (sure they can but not ONLY there).

spherical
06-26-2015, 03:23 PM
It would be interesting if Newtek integrated some 3rd-party plugins into LW the way MODO did with MeshFusion. Since everyone speaks highly of them it would seem to make sense to invest there rather than start from scratch. Of course, that would require the plugin authors being open to it.

That's been done previously. The current color picker is Jovian, which used to be available only as a plugin. There are more that will come to mind but I haven't had my espresso yet. :D

Wickedpup
06-26-2015, 04:27 PM
Hmmm... do you know for sure no one has been hired despite the advert? Unfortunately I'm not Columbo so don't know one way or another.
When they hired Matt Gorner and that former Nvidia guy they made an official announcement, is there any reason to expect otherwise if they had hired anyone for the modeling development? I think not....

hrgiger
06-27-2015, 05:21 PM
There is this... It's been there for some time
https://www.lightwave3d.com/careers/

On Facebook, Tim Jenison himself recently asked users to evaluate LW. A very interesting and mostly constructive discussion. Lino always gives the impression the team are listening in his ....

You sure that was tim jenison? I thought that was Phillip Nelson. Not that it matters, neither Tim nor Phillip have anything to do with lightwave?

OnlineRender
06-28-2015, 02:39 AM
You sure that was tim jenison? I thought that was Phillip Nelson.

Philip did come onto the LWiki Facebook Group (http://www.facebook.com/groups/lightwiki) and got 100 + comments in 3 hours , LOL...

I can't give a link to the post however if you use the search function on the FB page and type Philips name it will bring up the thread ...

RE as for David I a)I don't really care b) I think it was a *mutual* agreement, however none of my business so I'll end there.

but LW hire ghostwriters more than you would think and personally if I hired any staff I would want to keep there names out of public domain , too many users getting attached to an employee ,specifically on the developer side tbh it's kinda bad for business, that's why you should have a community manager and pr staff.

bobakabob
06-28-2015, 06:16 AM
You sure that was tim jenison? I thought that was Phillip Nelson. Not that it matters, neither Tim nor Phillip have anything to do with lightwave?

Oops, sorry, yes, Philip Nelson, my mistake.

erikals
06-28-2015, 07:07 AM
...Reality is that they simply have no much interest for modeling part of LW, they just wont/can't say that openly in public so people usually just assume (people always read between lines and usually what they like/see fit in their mind) release after release that they are listening/working on it for next release and that's been going on for decade by now...


don't forget the Modeler improvements implemented in LightWave 11.5/11.6


request 1, select path tool
-fixed (this was actually included in LW10)

request 2, fixing the edge bevel tool
-fixed, the new chamfer tool

request 3, adding an edge slide tool
-fixed, added in LW11.5 (still needs a point slide function though)

request 4, improving the point selection speed
-fixed in LW11.6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKXYRIUYFTc

request 5, improving translate plus
-fixed, the new translate tool, 11.5 (great implementation)

request 6, add a polyfit tool
-fixed, the new heat shrink tool, 11.5 (great implementation)

request 7, add a thickener
-fixed, the new thicken tool, 11.5 (great implementation)

request 8, new paste behavior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkGJeh-od5k
-fixed, the new paste behavior, 11.5

request 9, a PLGUV-like tool, requested by many
-fixed, the ABF Unwrap, 11.5

request 10, aligning object to an object
-fixed, the Align tool, 11.5

request 11, aligning tools
-fixed, the Align Rotate/Translate/Scale tool, 11.5


plus other great tools >

-Line Pen
-Tweak
-Place Mesh
-Slice
-Straighten
-Select by Normal
-Pick Surface

-----------------------

but yes, i too had hoped for new Modeler tools in LW2015

Lewis
06-28-2015, 07:16 AM
don't forget the Modeler improvements implemented in LightWave 11.5/11.6


I've not forget them, but in same time ALL of those "MeshSync" tools in 11.5 are almost useles with hi-poly stuff 'coz it takes 10-15-20 or more seconds WAIT for tool to START (copying mesh into ram/tool sinc ethos etools are it's own island). Also several of those are unfinished and none of them work with full SubDs meshes (it brings the meash back to "unsubdivided" while tool Fast modes are active) or unability to turn on/off Foregorund/Backgorudn snap with translate and axis tools, nown of them have/respect fallofs, not respecting LW logic of wireframe = see trough, also thicken not respectign selection wiht multiple layers on etc etc........

So please don't asume i don't know stuff about modeler, i know it very very well.

And YES many of that is been reported in early days of 11.5 (I've been at siggraph 2012 back stage while they were testing/showing those tools in Siggraph reveal/Beta)

erikals
06-28-2015, 08:13 AM
i'm just saying, even though not flawless, i'm happy they finally added some Modeler tools in 11.5...

Lewis
06-28-2015, 09:15 AM
i'm just saying, even though not flawless, i'm happy they finally added some Modeler tools in 11.5...

Well I think that part of problem (not getting serious modeling update for loong time) is when peopel are "happy" with wahtever they get like it's free software so whatever is in for next release is great. Many of users who were modelers are gone left LW for good (Luxology ge tnice userbas eout of dissapointed LW modellers) due lack of serious updates and willingness of NT/LWG3D to invest in modeling department also and not just VFX stuff. So untill users tell them it's not OK to skip updating half of app (one half is Laoyut.exe other is modeler.exe if we don't count HUB and LWSN ;)) relase after release it's not gonna be any better.

As you concluded yoursef you hoped LW2015 will add modeling update and it didn't ? And what's worse you are still OK with that (I forgot did you update to LW 2015?), that can and will make them think they can get away with that "system" towards updating only what they wish so why would they bother and work more if people are happy to pay for partial upgrades wiht hope "maybe next time" :)? Would you work more if you can get away for less for same amount of $$$ :)? We all are humans and if somene has chance to get more $$$ for less work 99% of us would take that opportunity so I'm nto blame-ing them for taking that chance. I'm more blame-ing (blame-ing being the strong word but can't think of easier one right now so pardon me if is too harsh word) users who are not voicing their opinion and saying it's still all good when relaity is that modeling in LW has fall behind many apps and it needes serious update.

Also people who reply with "go use other app..." or along that c..p/s..t respones are not realizing that's not gonna help LW to be better. Fanboys screaming how all is great is just make DEVs think it really is all OK so why change somethign if everoyne is happy :). With time those fanboys will also realize it's not that great at they thought (as they start hitting roadblocks in funcionality/usability with larger projects) and then it'll be too late to change code and it'll need Time (read as years and years) of updating LW Modeling to catchup close with competition and let alone surpras it as it once was when LW was among leaders and well know for it's modeling capabilities.

I'm not singling you out (sorry if it seems that way) but I've been hear similar way of thining/replying too often on these forums and it's NOT helping LW modeling to be better/udated, not at all..

P.S: And yes I'm still using and loving LW, but that just not mean i'm blind and not seeing problems in it. And I've been patinet for many many years when they were reassutign me it's gonna be better with LWModeling, Sadly that time still didn't happen so pardon me if i don't belive in words anymore. I just belive in actions/work i see , or as one of them would say along the lines "...show me the pudding" :).

probiner
06-28-2015, 10:07 AM
Been doing silly tests with modo 901 and mesh fusion. I really wished it had more modeling operator ways in order to play nicely with mesh fusion. Destructive workflows fail when you try to animate/drive things with constructions links.



http://i.imgur.com/cfn4yRO.gif
http://i.imgur.com/nAvOGQW.gif
http://i.imgur.com/uP1UJpc.gif

erikals
06-28-2015, 10:36 AM
- Many of users who were modelers are gone left LW for good
i noticed that too, but i also noticed sometimes their arguments didn't hold water,... sometimes.

i've heard and seen important things lacking in maya/max/modo etc...
no modeling app is far ahead of the others it seems...

- ...And what's worse you are still OK with that (I forgot did you update to LW 2015?)
nope, i didn't, mainly because of lack (>absence) of Modeler tools

- users who are not voicing their opinion and saying it's still all good when relaity is that modeling in LW has fall behind many apps and it needes serious update.
well, that would hardly be me...
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?144718-LightWave-2015-upgrade
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?139159-Modeler-Fixes-Updates

jeric_synergy
06-28-2015, 12:14 PM
Related: sometimes I realize how much has to be addressed when adding features to Modeler. I work at a very basic, practically beginner level, and many features that MUST be addressed by the programmers are features I never ever use. For me, I wonder "how come this simple thing that some plugin/scripter dev added so fast wasn't addressed long ago?" , and then I realize, oh, (e.g.) this doesn't work with UV maps, or this breaks endomorphs, or whatever. There's probably many more I'm just not aware of.

Not much of an excuse for the EXTREME level of neglect LWM has borne, but still.

Even if Stuart's creation was a total rats' maze of spaghetti code, it's been a longgggggggggg time.

erikals
06-28-2015, 01:40 PM
spaghetti code / core-soup / hydra challenges

that plus things generally taking time is problematic...

heck, for me even just making an AHK script takes forever... http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/arteest.gif

hrgiger
06-28-2015, 02:51 PM
New tools arent what modeler is lacking. So the fact a few new tools were added in 11.5 doesnt address the neglect that modeler has seen. Modeler is slow, isnt designed across the app to work off axis(all but forcing users into quad view mentality) meaning no work plane or tool handles, lacks an efficient or reliable cc subdivision, still using 'fake' edges that were implemented in LW 9, lacks local and element action centers, lacks background constraintsts....Did I mention it is slow?

In other words, system changes, not just superficial new tools.

Chris S. (Fez)
06-28-2015, 03:31 PM
In other words, system changes, not just superficial new tools.

Yes. Hopefully the next release will empower and entice 3rd party developers with a wide open architecture and massive performance improvements. Lightwavers being able to leverage Arnold and Pixar's latest renderer is amazing...now open up modeler.

tyrot
06-28-2015, 04:05 PM
anyways for archviz work it is simply amazing .. and if you just work a bit efficient .. it does everything you need .. take my modeler .. take my soul ? ... take my soul ... i ll keep modeler ..

Chris S. (Fez)
06-28-2015, 05:04 PM
anyways for archviz work it is simply amazing .. and if you just work a bit efficient .. it does everything you need .. take my modeler .. take my soul ? ... take my soul ... i ll keep modeler ..

For focused smaller projects for design, print and broadcast...Modeler and Layout are amazingly productive. For massive scenes and Zbrush type sculpts and such, being "efficient" is not an option. But even without the core developer, any progress Chronosculpt made to optimize deformations and geometry is owned entirely by Newtek. They are not starting from scratch.

Lewis
06-28-2015, 11:41 PM
anyways for archviz work it is simply amazing .. and if you just work a bit efficient .. it does everything you need .. take my modeler .. take my soul ? ... take my soul ... i ll keep modeler ..

How is it amazing if i can't move single tree mesh (500k+ polys Evermotion) without 5-10 seconds lag ?

erikals
06-29-2015, 12:52 AM
well, 500k+ for a tree mesh is an amazing waste though...

plant 50 trees an you got 25million polys, just for the trees (!)

---------

however, yes, just tested a 500k in Modeler, and it's amazingly slow... :/

Lewis
06-29-2015, 01:02 AM
well, 500k+ for a tree mesh is an amazing waste though...

Waste of what ? It's still 50x times faster than creating your own trees - right :)?

Also for close shoots you need good polycount on trees and leaves so 500k tree is nothing weird nowadays or considered extra hi-poly.
In arch-viz vegetation mostly sucks majority of polycount anyway but if you want it to look good you need to use it. Only distant shoots can be mad with low poly trees but polycount really depends on what kind of tree is since not all have same leaves shape/needs.



plant 50 trees an you got 25million polys, just for the trees (!)

And your point is what ? we should use only 5 trees max in scenes :)?
I have scenes with thousands of of trees so i have billion of polys at rendertime, that's why we have instancing.




however, yes, just tested a 500k in Modeler, and it's amazingly slow... :/
My point, even on simple subdiviided BOX it's slow as hell, selecting, multishifting, chamfering.......... any edit command is snail pace.

erikals
06-29-2015, 01:15 AM
Waste of what ? It's still 50x times faster than creating your own trees - right ?
it's done with instances in Layout

trees should be SubD models (but yes i realize no company makes them that way, they don't care...)


And your point is what ? we should use only 5 trees max in scenes ?
uh... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/rolleyes.gif

---------


My point, even on simple subdiviided BOX it's slow as hell, selecting, multishifting, chamfering.......... any edit command is snail pace.
we can agree on that

mav3rick
06-29-2015, 04:05 AM
Waste of what ? It's still 50x times faster than creating your own trees - right :)?

Also for close shoots you need good polycount on trees and leaves so 500k tree is nothing weird nowadays or considered extra hi-poly.
In arch-viz vegetation mostly sucks majority of polycount anyway but if you want it to look good you need to use it. Only distant shoots can be mad with low poly trees but polycount really depends on what kind of tree is since not all have same leaves shape/needs.



And your point is what ? we should use only 5 trees max in scenes :)?
I have scenes with thousands of of trees so i have billion of polys at rendertime, that's why we have instancing.





My point, even on simple subdiviided BOX it's slow as hell, selecting, multishifting, chamfering.......... any edit command is snail pace.

modeler is defo slow when going high poly or multilayer objects even on smaller non subd polycount ..
as for layout instances display and ogl display of huge amount of instances can really be pain ... and we would benefit of different approach hopefully with 2016.
what would be cool for 2016 is real time object swap for instances in layout so that models out of user defined radius replace models with appropriate LOD with some mix of opensub tessellation.
dx 11 example of raeal time gpu , tess and lod instancing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOI0QKyG1TM
opensubdv real time tessallation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YATzaRDn_aQ

Lewis
06-29-2015, 04:24 AM
i would say using 500k trees for instancing whole area is bit over the top even for serious productions. I am sure evermotion offers few LOD models of same tree so that you can choose where you need high or low detail treese...
what would be cool for 2016 is real time object swap for instances in layout so that models out of user defined radius replace models with appropriate LOD.

Not at all. Most 3D trees are 300-700k polys nowdays :). It really depends on type of tree, Birch have lot of tiny leaves so you can't avoid polycount even if the leaves are low poly as 6-8 polys :).

lightscape
06-29-2015, 05:41 AM
That's why we don't use evermotion models as is even in 3dmax. These models are collapsed/frozen subd models on purpose so people will not edit them and resell them. Even in 3dmax these models work crap. We usually run them through poly reduction.
Anyone that uses them as is ain't working efficiently and being lazy. Imagine having 50k poly chairs in a complex interior scene.
In any app including 3dmax, modo these kinds of scenes with multi-million real polys would not be good for poly editing. You can tumble them a little better than lightwave but forget trying to accurately select polygons from these highpoly models let alone editing them.
Its like working with cad data thats been collapsed to polys. Only a stupid person would try selecting polys and editing them instead of retopologizing parts that need editing.

Lewis
06-29-2015, 06:08 AM
That's why we don't use evermotion models as is even in 3dmax. These models are collapsed/frozen subd models on purpose .

Leaves on trees aren't subDs/collapsed/freeze and they are ones using most polys in trees :).

For furniture (although I've not spoken about furniture here) sure they make them subDs and freeze/collapse turbo smooth modifier but even then it's no way you can remodel/reshape all that in quick turnaround projects (i had arch-viz which needed to be done in 1-2 days and in most cases 3-4 days is tops since architects always wait for last moment and still change drawings :)) so you use what you have :)

tyrot
06-29-2015, 10:38 AM
dude do not tell me you EDIT evermotion trees :)

plus i use tree modeling softwares .. to model my trees there .. WHY would i edit that crazy mesh in modeler .. for which purpose ..

dude no :) modeler ROCKS ..

also when i buy any evermotion model i carefully remodel it .. retopo it .. when i have free time. . anyways .. it is JUST insane to use that much dense models ..

of course i get your point .. more poly is better but .. even noone updates modeler 10 years .. it will still put food on table .. It is just amazing .. and new LWCAD .. come on dude .. LWBRUSH .. oh boy .. :)

Lewis
06-29-2015, 12:18 PM
Yeah dude, it's great, fantastic, it's awesome dude, they shouldn't touch it. It should stay as it is in it's greatness for at least next 10 years :D :D ;).

bobakabob
06-29-2015, 12:25 PM
Having used Both Maya and LW, all I remember, as I left the animation labs, was the frustration I had modeling in Maya. I felt like I could get the models done 4 times faster using LW over Maya. Granted, that was years ago, so I don't know how Maya has changed since then with modeling. But still to this day, I can use LW to mock up ideas instead of having to always start with concept on paper. Its cool to be able to jump in and almost "sketch" out an idea in 3D to start.

Maya now has a new suite of modelling tools which is economically designed and powerful. They are very nice to work with, although booleans aren't as fast or stable as the 3rd Powers LW plugins as far as I can see. However what you said is still absolutely true iMO... Recently a university Maya tutor I know was intrigued I was using Modeler as a sketchbook to realise ideas without using pen and paper. I know other LW users with this approach. When I explained it was just faster and more intuitive he suggested there was scope for research into technology and the creative process.

It's funny being labelled a "fanboy" here if you're into constructive discussion, talk up the positives and averse to ranting and throwing your rattle out of the pram because your (economically priced) toy doesn't do all the things you think it should. One thing we can all agree with is Modeler has been neglected and needs more work. hrgiger has made some salient points about specific features and there are undoubtedly weaknesses we are all hoping will be addressed. It is vital that users keep nudging the LW3DG and suggesting improvements. However, be careful what you wish for. Erikals and others have wisely pointed out that modelling in alternate software can also be frustrating. As long as I've worked in 3d, using a variety of apps has been the norm (finances permitting). I use mainly LW and ZBrush, an incredibly powerful combination and in recent years Maya. All 3 apps are brilliant in their own way and complement each other. As someone accused of fanboyism I just don't get this obsession some people have with one app doing absolutely everything.

Lewis
06-29-2015, 12:34 PM
I just don't get this obsession some people have with one app doing absolutely everything.

You know, moving 500k polys cube in modeler with much more than 0.1 FPS is not EVERYTHING.

cresshead
06-29-2015, 12:39 PM
Has anyone here truly enjoyed modelling in Maya, Max or Softimage? True Newtek have neglected Modeler over the years but it's still ahead of the game largely thanks to its comprehensive toolset, LWCad and the innovatory genius of 3rd Powers plugins. There are hints LW3dG will give Modeler more tlc.

Yup L.O.V.E modelling in 3ds max..modifier stack for the win.

bobakabob
06-29-2015, 01:33 PM
Yup L.O.V.E modelling in 3ds max..modifier stack for the win.

Well you deserve a medal :)
We're all tuned in different ways... Modelling in Max always felt like an inspiration killer, typing values into horrendous clunky panels at every step. It didn't seem remotely spontaneous. However, it's all subjective. Max looks really good for engineering orientated modelling with a rather impressive Nurbs toolkit.

bobakabob
06-29-2015, 01:59 PM
You know, moving 500k polys cube in modeler with much more than 0.1 FPS is not EVERYTHING.

Why create a 500k cube in Modeler when you could use 6 polys? I'm serious. This point was made earlier regarding trees with ridiculous poly counts. Well if you have to constantly ramp everything up to 11, use other tools, which is what you do anyway, is it not? If you're a specialist Modeler invest and use what's available to get the job done. Most people in the industry use a diverse range of software all with their own strengths and weaknesses.

Lewis
06-29-2015, 02:15 PM
Why create a 500k cube in Modeler when you could use 6 polys? I'm serious. Are you just pretending to not understand the point or what ? I'm workign with hi-polyount and subDs hi-poly every day, even doing CAD data remodeling. 500k polys cube was just exampe, i thought you can undesstand that. Guess I was wrong.

Also I'm using other apps yes (MAX, 3DCoat, Moi3D) and that's because LW CAN'T handle stuff i need. You are one sayign it can and it's all cool. Well i know it's not true and using other apps but that doens't mean i don't want that LWModeling be better. With your logic "all is good and great in modeler" it will never be better.

So don't worry aobut my bussines/industry. I'm long enough in the industry that I know what I need to use and when, you don't need to teach me.

Still (a susually) you didn't answer to the point why is it normal for you that 500k polys (any object, doesn't have to be Tree or BOX, I could show you arch-viz wiht tons of polys where single buidlign is 500k polys or even car interior what have aroudn 750k SubDs polys (that's abotu 6.7 mil polys at render time/freeze) and yes it had to have it that way since client wanted to have speaker grilles also modeled (honeycombs) and even stickers on interior buttons (no textures allowed) etc... etc.. so no "optimize logiv woudl work sinc eit's already optimized/low poly as possible. There is lot of stuff you obviously don't know/understand about hi-poly modeling if you think it's OK to be that slow with polygon handling in modeler. Adn liek i said that approact to problems (all is cool) will NOT get us beter/faster modeling tools in near future/if ever.

Sensei
06-29-2015, 02:34 PM
While refreshing interactive tool changes Modeler switches to legacy OpenGL transfer of mesh to gfx card.
So spinning viewport is fast (because data are send using new OpenGL functions and/or are already in gfx card uploaded earlier (like games do)),
but when there is plentiful changes to meshes (interactive tool),
uploading and refreshing is done old way..

It's tough subject even in games. f.e. playfield (as long as it's static) can be uploaded once and keep all the time in gfx card memory (so no need to upload it over and over again every frame),
but organic player (with bones), is problematic for programmers to code. Especially if bone can modify more than one vertex.
To speed up, to not have to upload player over and over again to gfx card memory, there is needed vertex shader, complicating it even more..

bobakabob
06-29-2015, 02:34 PM
@Lewis, You clearly haven't read my posts regarding "all is cool" in Modeler. Most people here agree it definitely isn't "cool" and Modeler has been sadly neglected. But the benefits of LW are often sadly overlooked and Modeler caters for a broad spectrum of different artists and designers, not just super high poly arch viz modelling. You're clearly pushing the boundaries of the software so it makes sense to look to other tools.

Lewis
06-29-2015, 03:17 PM
To speed up, to not have to upload player over and over again to gfx card memory, there is needed vertex shader, complicating it even more..

Sore, it's not and easy taks (nobody says it's easy but it's not 10 years+ hard either) but it's been done once in past already (when i try 250k polys model editing in CORE gives me 10-12 FPS when pulling selected polygons with move tool while in LWM i get barely 0,5-1 FPS). So it's possible (other softares are also faster in geometry editing) to speedup massive amount (and CORE was unoptimized back then). It just need to be worked on and not skipped every time. We need new Geometry core in modleign so then it'll be faster. We could use also Screen culling / samret way of handling openGL so that it's not calculating anythign out of view i.e. not visible in openGL currently and yet many modeler tools caount/calculate all the layers and meshes loaded prior to tool start or duing (like Multishift) so that slows down things masivelly.

tyrot
06-29-2015, 03:41 PM
dude i am also dealing with very very very high poly count projects .. as i said .. there are some severe limitation in polygon issue .. nobody is ignoring that .. BUT poo poo ing .. modeler because of it .. is just crazy ..

modeler is insanely cleverly designed .. piece of software .. and great third party support .. is just making it better ..

but again NOBODY can argue poly count issue ..

strangely after OCTANE's displacement and round edges features SIMPLY took URGENT need for high poly problem too. Just send the model to Octane displace there .. and BAM .. you have billions poly look from well .. 12 sides.. :)

So adding OCTANE in to equation NOT only saving layout but also MODELER ..

Lewis
06-29-2015, 03:45 PM
strangely after OCTANE's displacement and round edges features SIMPLY took URGENT need for high poly problem too. Just send the model to Octane displace there .. and BAM .. you have billions poly look from well .. 12 sides.. :)

So adding OCTANE in to equation NOT only saving layout but also MODELER ..

Sure if you can show me how to diplace a fully detialed CAR exterior/interio from a 12 sided Cube I'm all ears :) ;).

And once for all, guys try to understand that pointiong out broken things isn't pooing or whatever you call it. Liek i said many times if you dont' report problems/bugs/poor tools/workflows they will NEVER be fixed (really never 'coz nobody is fixing something if it ain't (ain't as they don't knwo not really ain't) broken and DEVs dont' play all day long wiht polygons/modelign detail stuff to encounter problems we do on daily basis, so they can't know unless we show/tell them). I've been reported many of that stuff to regular channels/Fogbugs/BugBot and new CSI bug system so it's not like I'm just lookign at that and not doing anythign about it. The ball is in NT/LWG3D court for looong loong time and no workaorund or plugin (LWCAD is also sufferign big time 'coz of LWM geometry core being slow) will solve/work on that. It has to be coded/updated/fixed.

P.S. tyrot - I have octane and it's great plugin but not solution for modeling issues (and BTW rounding edges ain't workign that great, Otoy knows abot that you can search on their forum if you dont believe me , ther eis old topic on that subject ;))

BTW just to give you perspective about models I deal with here is one link to model i did year ago - https://www.hyundaiusa.com/azera/interior.aspx (renders are done with agency but model is Full SubDs). That one is so called Print resulution (all beside text on buttons and speaker grilles is modeled) and there is also 1 level up (Ultra print res whcih has all modeled, speaker grill and text labels and even tiniest dashboard imprints - no textures allowed)

tyrot
06-29-2015, 03:47 PM
CAR is your stuff .. you are GOD of CARS so i feel your pain :( i am talking about displace-able things :)
dude you are not human :) nothing but respect..!

hrgiger
06-29-2015, 04:22 PM
Sadly, Modo 901 is not much better at pushing polys then Modeler is. It is better, but not by as much as you'd hope for a more modern codebase. Both of them really start the lagging once you get past 150k or so. Subdividing was much slower in Modeler. Subdividing a 90k mesh took about 5 seconds in Modo, took more like two minutes in Modeler. But for regular translations, both were fairly slow. But all the other areas I mentioned earlier, its clear how far behind Modeler has fallen. CORE did show substantially improved poly pushing and of course Chronosculpt deals in millions of polygons so it seems possible for them to improve it in modeling in LightWave but they're just going to have to make the commitment to do it but we haven't really seen any indication they are making the kinds of changes required to make that happen. They just seem to only be interested in adding features to Layout tools.

erikals
06-29-2015, 04:32 PM
Subdividing a 90k mesh took about 5 seconds in Modo, took more like two minutes in Modeler

also see > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG8Sgms5ZM0

edit1: sorry, misunderstood a bit at first, but do check the trick in the video above...

edit2: tested, Subdividing a 90k mesh took about 50 seconds in Modeler using "Subdivide Polygons"

---------

there was talk about Hydra, hopefully they are working on it...

jeric_synergy
06-29-2015, 05:01 PM
People like to say, ::ugh:: CORE handled polys faster, but, CORE wasn't done: it might have been ignoring who knows what kinda stuff.

I wish folks here would let it go, and reference current competitors that are kicking our *** in polygon manipulation instead.

hrgiger
06-29-2015, 05:21 PM
People like to say, ::ugh:: CORE handled polys faster, but, CORE wasn't done: it might have been ignoring who knows what kinda stuff.

I wish folks here would let it go, and reference current competitors that are kicking our *** in polygon manipulation instead.

CORE is just as much a part of LW history as every previous version including LW 11 which many are still using. And its relevant to this conversation. And yes, it wasn't done and it wasn't also optimized yet for performance so it very well could have been faster.

And CORE is very much relevant still because even though the application was cancelled, Rob made assertion that destination is still the same. Whether he actually meant that is something else entirely.

jeric_synergy
06-29-2015, 05:36 PM
::eyeroll::

Cageman
06-29-2015, 05:41 PM
CORE was a cool WIP that ended up in the trashcan. That said, what Lewis and others keep comming back to is that it was able to push a lot of polygons around in realtime. We should not forget that, because some of that stuff was very impressive and way beyond the capabilities found in Modo (not to mention Modeler), as an example. That is where the devs should aim (I'm pretty sure they are, but they have to deal with paving the road first, since the old code wasn't made for the sort of thing CORE could do).

Megalodon2.0
06-29-2015, 06:00 PM
CORE is just as much a part of LW history as every previous version including LW 11 which many are still using. And its relevant to this conversation. And yes, it wasn't done and it wasn't also optimized yet for performance so it very well could have been faster.

And CORE is very much relevant still because even though the application was cancelled, Rob made assertion that destination is still the same. Whether he actually meant that is something else entirely.

Quoted simply for agreement.

BokadCastle
06-29-2015, 06:01 PM
::eyeroll::

I agree with Lewis, HRG, Cageman and others.
I was gonna make a smart-arse remark about 'opening your eyes' - but why bother.
You'll get the tom-tits, I'll over react, Meglodon2'll get involved, Bowie will ban all of us!

Megalodon2.0
06-29-2015, 06:13 PM
I agree with Lewis, HRG, Cageman and others.
I was gonna make a smart-arse remark about 'opening your eyes' - but why bother.
You'll get the tom-tits, I'll over react, Meglodon2'll get involved, Bowie will ban all of us!

I actually DID have a response to the ::eyeroll:: but then decided just to ignore it. ;)

I agree with your post BokadCastle.

hrgiger
06-29-2015, 06:28 PM
No reason to quip. Jeric wants good things for LW just like most of us.

BokadCastle
06-29-2015, 06:30 PM
an eyeroll is also a quip, to be quipped back at.

Cageman
06-29-2015, 07:06 PM
No reason to quip. Jeric wants good things for LW just like most of us.

Anyone who "eyerolls" CORE and the _good_ stuff it showed, is ignorant. And, lets face it; CORE is a part of LW history, just like any previous version of LW.

Lets move forward, and... yes, lets see some CORE based tech inside of LW, such as way faster polyhandling in Modeler, for example... :)

Megalodon2.0
06-29-2015, 07:17 PM
Precisely.

Amurrell
06-29-2015, 07:20 PM
Hell I was impressed and still amazed at the fact that the hardware shading that CORE had never made it into LW. Talk about making things quick for previs even before activating VPR. Would have been a great addition to modeller, in my opinion.

Snosrap
06-29-2015, 08:09 PM
Hell I was impressed and still amazed at the fact that the hardware shading that CORE had never made it into LW. Talk about making things quick for previs even before activating VPR. Would have been a great addition to modeller, in my opinion. Yep - I made real-time glass spheres in Core with no VPR that looked better than any glass I can make today. :)

Cageman
07-01-2015, 03:33 PM
Yep.. The year CORE was showed off at Siggraph, I know that the realtime (OGL) stuff got a lot of wows. And playing around with it was a lot of fun, because it looked so good and was instant.

Nowdays I am working mostly in Snowdrop (game engine) at work, and CORE was not that far away back in those days, compared to what we have nowdays regarding game engines.

So yes... CORE showed a lot of promise, and I know the devteam is hard at work making LW better in all aspects.... after all... they did create some very good stuff with CORE, so... lets look forward to some cool things regarding LW.

:)

prometheus
07-01-2015, 04:16 PM
I thought I saw some real time bloom effect long time ago in the core openGL, I wish that could happen too, along with glow and corona, think that could boost up creativity in terms how we tweak and get instant feedback on those effects, at least throw in bloom and corona in with VPR at least, and if they do work with dpont´s bloom streak effects..the better.

Michael

erikals
07-01-2015, 05:23 PM
agree! post realtime would be super http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/arteest.gif

Snosrap
07-01-2015, 10:18 PM
I thought I saw some real time bloom effect long time ago in the core openGL, I wish that could happen too, along with glow and corona,
Yep and it was damn amazing!

pming
07-17-2015, 03:09 PM
Hiya!

So, who's up for a "Bring back CORE!" petition?

;) <-- NOTE

Seriously though, I've said this in other posts here and elsewhere, I really, REALLY, REALLY think they dropped the 90lb ball right square on their own when they decided to ditch CORE. It had HUGE promise, with things that would have seriously given AD and Softimage (not owned by AD at the time), as well as C4D and other packages, a run for their money. I wish I could still download the last version of CORE from My Account at LW... even if it is unsupported and all that. I lost my versions in a nasty hard drive crash. :(

Anyway, as for MODO, I just got it on the "MODO Indie" monthly subscription thing via Steam (just under $20/month). Mostly I'm learning it's modeling (my main work), and I can definitely feel the LW vibes coming from it. I actually quite like it, truth be told. It's "fitting" into what I expect... meaning if I go looking for "How to connect a bunch of edges into a loop", I can look for "Loop Split", or "Loop Connect", or "Split Loop" or something like that and find it. Search for "Loop" and "Split" in LW and you get... nothing. Bupkiss, as far as trying to add an edge loop around a series of edges. THAT is my most annoying problem with LW. LW may have a tool to do what I want, but it being called something that makes any kind of sense is slim to none. It's like going into a donut shop asking for a bavarian cream and having the server say "Huh? What?"...then, after 15 minutes of description and searching the menu, you find out it's listed under "Sweet Solid Bagles" and it's called "Non-Breaded Center Stuffed".

*sigh*

OH, and someone asked in the first page or two about enjoying modeling in some other packages, Softimage was one. Yes. I LOVE modeling in Softimage! Always have, always will (since version 3.4, when it was just "Softimage|3D"). My other fave modeling app... Hexagon. Alas, Hexagon is kinda buggy and DAZ owns them now... so not likely to ever see fixes/updates. :(

...still waiting for Blender to fix or otherwise come out with a totally revamped "modern and simplistic" GUI with logical hot keys... I tried to make my own Hotkey list and stuff...I succeeded in totally screwing Blender up to the point that I couldnt' use it (my Hotkeys over riding other hotkeys for other things not realted at ALL to what I set the hotkey up to do in the first place). What a mess that interface is! It's getting better, but man....still looks like a dogs breakfast to me.

Ahem. Oh yeah, the plugins suggested to get Modeler up to speed with other apps? LWCAD, 3rd Powers, and Sensai (?) I think they were? Yeah...totalled it all up. To get them all, after conversion from Canadian to USD, I'm looking at about $1,625. For *plugins* to cover modeling tools that Lightwave should already have built in. Uh, no. No thanks. Nope. ... I'd rather just take that money and invest in a copy of C4D or pay someone to create a nice hotkey/gui for Blender for me. :)

^_^

Paul L. Ming

libneon
07-17-2015, 03:34 PM
Hiya!

So, who's up for a "Bring back CORE!" petition?

;) <-- NOTE

Seriously though, I've said this in other posts here and elsewhere, I really, REALLY, REALLY think they dropped the 90lb ball right square on their own when they decided to ditch CORE. It had HUGE promise, with things that would have seriously given AD and Softimage (not owned by AD at the time), as well as C4D and other packages, a run for their money. I wish I could still download the last version of CORE from My Account at LW... even if it is unsupported and all that. I lost my versions in a nasty hard drive crash. :(

Anyway, as for MODO, I just got it on the "MODO Indie" monthly subscription thing via Steam (just under $20/month). Mostly I'm learning it's modeling (my main work), and I can definitely feel the LW vibes coming from it. I actually quite like it, truth be told. It's "fitting" into what I expect... meaning if I go looking for "How to connect a bunch of edges into a loop", I can look for "Loop Split", or "Loop Connect", or "Split Loop" or something like that and find it. Search for "Loop" and "Split" in LW and you get... nothing. Bupkiss, as far as trying to add an edge loop around a series of edges. THAT is my most annoying problem with LW. LW may have a tool to do what I want, but it being called something that makes any kind of sense is slim to none. It's like going into a donut shop asking for a bavarian cream and having the server say "Huh? What?"...then, after 15 minutes of description and searching the menu, you find out it's listed under "Sweet Solid Bagles" and it's called "Non-Breaded Center Stuffed".

*sigh*

OH, and someone asked in the first page or two about enjoying modeling in some other packages, Softimage was one. Yes. I LOVE modeling in Softimage! Always have, always will (since version 3.4, when it was just "Softimage|3D"). My other fave modeling app... Hexagon. Alas, Hexagon is kinda buggy and DAZ owns them now... so not likely to ever see fixes/updates. :(

...still waiting for Blender to fix or otherwise come out with a totally revamped "modern and simplistic" GUI with logical hot keys... I tried to make my own Hotkey list and stuff...I succeeded in totally screwing Blender up to the point that I couldnt' use it (my Hotkeys over riding other hotkeys for other things not realted at ALL to what I set the hotkey up to do in the first place). What a mess that interface is! It's getting better, but man....still looks like a dogs breakfast to me.

Ahem. Oh yeah, the plugins suggested to get Modeler up to speed with other apps? LWCAD, 3rd Powers, and Sensai (?) I think they were? Yeah...totalled it all up. To get them all, after conversion from Canadian to USD, I'm looking at about $1,625. For *plugins* to cover modeling tools that Lightwave should already have built in. Uh, no. No thanks. Nope. ... I'd rather just take that money and invest in a copy of C4D or pay someone to create a nice hotkey/gui for Blender for me. :)

^_^

Paul L. Ming

I think Modo indie is too limited personally. No scripts or plugins, locking the files to your personal Steam account, export limitations etc. Without the Seneca scripts etc. it's really not that great. Just IMO.

Actually Blender has some nice interface options if you look around. Here is a great setup: http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?352666-Input-Custom-Blender-Setup-Silo-Maya-esque And another: https://blendersensei.com/

I still like LW. If you look at the pricing of various packages though (look at Modo keep increasing in price) and the fact that there's a lot of great standalone tools (Substance, 3Dcoat, etc.) it seems it's becoming less optimal to invest in a large 3D package. Blender fits the bill nicely more and more since it's not going anywhere and will remain free. Yes, the UI seems like a trainwreck at first but once you get going you realize it does some great things.

Surrealist.
07-17-2015, 11:52 PM
Yeah Blender has some real gems worth getting at by learning how it was designed to work. I would not really recommend trying to force it into another familiar keystroke pattern. It is very similar to Softimage in that regard. There are unique designs in Softimage you miss if you switch to a Maya keystroke interaction for example. MotionBuilder is one app that I don't mind switching over to a more familiar keystroke pattern because there is only one feature you really loose, the alt drag from the view port to property pages. And I find myself using other methods anyway. In Blender you can even switch to LMB select. But you loose other features when you do that, and really is not recommended. Overall I think it is just best to stick with learning how a package was designed.

Regarding software choices, I think you just have to be realistic about what it is you want to do.

All software has strengths and weaknesses. And I think the only person qualified to sort that out is you, the artist, with first hand experience, trial and error, within the context of your own expected needs.

jeric_synergy
07-18-2015, 12:49 PM
Hiya!

So, who's up for a "Bring back CORE!" petition?

;) <-- NOTE
I'll kill you!!! ;)


Anyway, as for MODO, I just got it on the "MODO Indie" monthly subscription thing via Steam (just under $20/month). Mostly I'm learning it's modeling (my main work), and I can definitely feel the LW vibes coming from it. I actually quite like it, truth be told. It's "fitting" into what I expect... meaning if I go looking for "How to connect a bunch of edges into a loop", I can look for "Loop Split", or "Loop Connect", or "Split Loop" or something like that and find it. Search for "Loop" and "Split" in LW and you get... nothing. Bupkiss, as far as trying to add an edge loop around a series of edges. THAT is my most annoying problem with LW. LW may have a tool to do what I want, but it being called something that makes any kind of sense is slim to none. It's like going into a donut shop asking for a bavarian cream and having the server say "Huh? What?"...then, after 15 minutes of description and searching the menu, you find out it's listed under "Sweet Solid Bagles" and it's called "Non-Breaded Center Stuffed".

Paul L. Ming
That's a valid complaint, but I'd put that under "Training Issues" versus "Design Issues".

As anybody who's been here a while knows, I have a bee in my bonnet (to non-Americans, "an obsession") about USER MODERATED DOCUMENTATION. For users coming to LW/LWM from other packages, allowing users to develop 'translation pages', eg "3dMax<<>>LW glossary" would address such training/reference issues. Develop, and ADD THEM TO THE DISTRIBUTED DOX.

I'm pretty sure most users don't read the dox start to finish (as profitable as that can be) and mostly just Search for specific topics. The ability of the USERS, as a GROUP, to contribute more Search Tags to the existing documentation, would really help.

The ability to help other users, so conspicuous in this forum, in a PERMANENT FASHION, rather than the ephemeral nature of the forum and social media, is a very desirable feature.

Snosrap
07-18-2015, 01:00 PM
And I think the only person qualified to sort that out is you, the artist, with first hand experience, trial and error, within the context of your own expected needs. Yep. I can't tell you how many different apps I've tried (and back in the day you had to buy them to try them) that were supposed to be the end all to be all app, only to find that for some reason they did not click with my brain and therefore didn't get used. Wasted lots of dough. Thankfully almost every developer offers free trials nowadays and those that don't have no chance of getting my money.

Rayek
07-19-2015, 03:54 AM
Blender is making some nice progress - the viewport is currently under heavy re-development, and it is definitely paying off with matcaps, realtime AO and depth of field. I was editing a 1,5 million tris object in edit mode in the latest version on my aging rig, and it was actually still workable (compared to older versions).

The dependency graph is being tackled as well.

The viewport optimizations done so far compare very favourably with Maya. A 129 million tris scene performs at 6~7 fps on a Quadro 6000. Same as Maya.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=36&v=0hKkJtybris