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scratch33
05-12-2015, 03:08 PM
Hi don't understand something with lightwave group.

Why when I look around (for example modo luxology foundry,....) other companies make partnership, have contacts, develop product hand by hand, makes integration of a product in another, develop plugins to
be linked with other world best products, etc......
and the only product that is totaly ignored is lightwave?
Is there because it is considered a old package without future?
Or is this because lightwave group is closed to other companies? or they don't use the right strategy to convince other companies to be interested in lightwave?

I don't know. It is like we are closed in a little box looking what's happening outside but without the chance to participate.

And fortunately juanjgo had not developed plugins for example octane or hdri studio ........

jasonwestmas
05-12-2015, 04:09 PM
Lightwave has an identity crisis. With competing products getting cheaper and more abundant LW doesn't present itself as a dominant force in any particular area other than generall speediness for quick projects. LW needs to do things that the other software packages do not. That's the main problem.

stevecullum
05-12-2015, 05:30 PM
Lightwave has an identity crisis. With competing products getting cheaper and more abundant LW doesn't present itself as a dominant force in any particular area other than generall speediness for quick projects. LW needs to do things that the other software packages do not. That's the main problem.

I would argue that Lightwave has a very unique workflow compared to other 3d Apps. I've used most of the major packages for one project or another and not one of them has lured me away with any of their fancy features. I just love Lightwave's workflow, which is why I will continue using it, despite any short comings. If I really must have something in a project that I can't do, liquids for example, then I will use something I can import into Lightwave to finish off in. Oh and VPR kicks arse compared to a lot of other realtime previewers.

jasonwestmas
05-12-2015, 06:28 PM
I would argue that Lightwave has a very unique workflow compared to other 3d Apps. I've used most of the major packages for one project or another and not one of them has lured me away with any of their fancy features. I just love Lightwave's workflow, which is why I will continue using it, despite any short comings. If I really must have something in a project that I can't do, liquids for example, then I will use something I can import into Lightwave to finish off in. Oh and VPR kicks arse compared to a lot of other realtime previewers.

That was true 5 years ago. . .Not so unique anymore I'm afraid. Unfortunately, the direct nature of lightwave's workflow has a lot of limitations and baggage attached to it. I haven't seen much done to filter out those limitations and unnecessary hurdles.

shrox
05-12-2015, 06:59 PM
Lightwave and the end of the world.

If NewTek doesn't go subscription, when it all goes Mad Max, Lightwave will still work as long as you've got power.

Netvudu
05-12-2015, 07:05 PM
Jason, you can argue with some of stevecullum´s points, and to a point I do agree with the limitations of what you call "direct nature" methods, but the gods know, you cannot argue with the VPR being better than ANYTHING at the market.
Myself, I´ve tried every software package, and almost every render out there (good thing about working at a CGI training school) and I´ve witnessed this. None of them show the interactivity and non-cloggering of LW´s VPR. Maya, Houdini, Vray RT, even Softimage....it doesn´t matter. They all start coughing as soon as you tweak intensive scenes. Octane might be an exception, but only if you boast TWO strong graphic cards.

As for other non-VPR matters, I´m with Jason.

adk
05-12-2015, 07:31 PM
Jason, you can argue with some of stevecullum´s points, and to a point I do agree with the limitations of what you call "direct nature" methods, but the gods know, you cannot argue with the VPR being better than ANYTHING at the market.
Myself, I´ve tried every software package, and almost every render out there (good thing about working at a CGI training school) and I´ve witnessed this. None of them show the interactivity and non-cloggering of LW´s VPR. Maya, Houdini, Vray RT, even Softimage....it doesn´t matter. They all start coughing as soon as you tweak intensive scenes. Octane might be an exception, but only if you boast TWO strong graphic cards.

As for other non-VPR matters, I´m with Jason.

Precisely what I've experienced with a few other packages / render combos, and is spot on how I feel about VPR :thumbsup: especially when you present things externally to an audience on a laptop.
Octane flies on my home box with two GPU's but it's not exactly a portable solution.

jwiede
05-12-2015, 07:39 PM
Myself, I´ve tried every software package, and almost every render out there (good thing about working at a CGI training school) and I´ve witnessed this. None of them show the interactivity and non-cloggering of LW´s VPR. Maya, Houdini, Vray RT, even Softimage....it doesn´t matter. They all start coughing as soon as you tweak intensive scenes.

Go give Clarisse a try. You'll be absolutely shocked by how fast/smooth Clarisse's previewer works dealing with 100M+ poly scenes with surfacing, etc. I've seen Clarisse's previewer smoothly moving around in scenes whose geometry density would turn VPR (and Layout) into a drawn-out slideshow. Don't get me wrong, I think VPR's performance is quite good, Clarisse's previewer just seems substantially faster/smoother on same hw previewing same/similar high-poly scenes.

Aside (though not as fast as Clarisse's previewer), I've also been impressed by how quickly MaxwellRender's Fire previewer can resolve a complex scene to useful detail -- considering that it is working with an "unbiased" surfacing model, it is surprisingly fast producing a medium- to fine-detail preview even with rather complex scenes. I'm now testing MaxwellRender Fire preview perf rendering of volumetrics and hair/fur/fibre scenes, relative to LW VPR, modo preview & RayGL, and C4D progressive preview using X-Particle shader, to see how it stacks up in those kinds of scenes.

Davewriter
05-12-2015, 07:51 PM
Lightwave and the end of the world.

If NewTek doesn't go subscription, when it all goes Mad Max, Lightwave will still work as long as you've got power.

Two go in... one comes out!

Dexter2999
05-12-2015, 09:17 PM
I know this is an old argument, but I'm going to put it out there anyway.

The split workflow of LW has a certain appeal. The clutter is tamed down a bit in the interface by eliminating the portions of the software not in use.

The downside is the sacrifice of particular workflows like animating points, painting weightmaps in layout when you see the deformations in action, etc...

I would hope future iterations find a way to unify the software but retain the ability to keep the UI clutter down by having "workspaces" for Modeling and Layout. This would address the missing functionality and introduce the streamlined workflow to a wider audience put off by the current limitations.

But also of note, the original target audience was (is?) small/independent video professionals. The idea was to make 3D affordable at a time when animation software ran on $40K machines and the software was $5K. I think the idea was to enable local TV stations to make their own spinney logos. I don't believe they ever dreamed where it would go. And budgeting/marketing/development was never scaled to try to take over those high end specialty markets. It was "just" a side offering to the more lucrative hardware offerings.

My two cents.*


*Not actually worth two cents but far, far less.

Surrealist.
05-12-2015, 10:01 PM
In fairness though when you hink about it. Half of modeler is already filled with stuff you only use if you are sending your object to Layout for animation. You put all of the modeling tools in Laypout. Now move, scale, rotate are redundant between modeling and animation. You also can move your objects at the object level. Also remove the pivot tool that was in modeler and as it becomes redundant because you'd have a universal manipulator that also can be used to set the pivot.

Bend, twist and all of these other deform tools become deformers and can also be used for animation as well as modeling. Now you can animate these modeling functions too. Removal of redundancy and clutter, addition of more functionality. No more need for skellegons and an entire rigging set of tools in modeler. Gone. Now you can do all of that in Layout. Painting and so on, get rid of all of the weight tools in Modeler. Now all that is needed is a leaner interface for painting wieghts that can also be used in conjunction with component selection when you need that level of control to set weights. Automatic weight assignments also dial in a rig in seconds giving you a similar starting point for bone defoms. So that is an option. Should be kept anyway. But really becomes less necessary.

Surface panel. This is also duplicated between Modeler and Layout. Redundancy, more unnecessary clutter. Bringing in assets from other apps don't have to go to Modeler first to assign faces to surfaces if that is needed. More steps removed. VPR for those loving it. Now if you want you can also view your model in a render mode with near immediate feedback to changes.... rare to do with modeling, but could come in handy in situations.

lightscape
05-12-2015, 10:03 PM
You have to wonder about Clarisse.
Its as detached to other packages as layout is to modeller yet nobody complains about it.
It was also overpriced way back and they've dialed that price quite a bit now.

If only layout could be as powerful and eat huge scenes like Clarisse and modeller would improve its toolset, lightwave could be attractive again to the rest of the world.

Wickedpup
05-13-2015, 01:25 AM
.....but the gods know, you cannot argue with the VPR being better than ANYTHING at the market.
Have questioned this before, without any answers.....clearly there are pros and cons to the divided workflow, isn´t one of the pros that VPR does not move around the same amount of mesh data that some of the other previewers do? And how much does this affect performance? :stumped:

shrox
05-13-2015, 02:03 AM
Lightwave and the end of the world.

If NewTek doesn't go subscription, when it all goes Mad Max, Lightwave will still work as long as you've got power.

I think this is a good angle for marketing Lightwave.

Niko3D
05-14-2015, 04:29 AM
My opinion is that VPR is, at the moment, the only thing in LW very useful and great than the others 3D pack. It save me a lot of time...and I really can no longer do without!Thanks God for that.
But after this...the total void. A big mix of tools...some useful and some completely useless. See double Surface Editor...or to wait the update in Layout if you change something in Modeler (of course in huge scene), but it's not logic for me.
No connection with any renderer, just a few...a lot of plugins but in my field those cool are very few almost inexistent.

I work in a quite big Arch company as Visualiser, but in this field LW is often annoying...the workflow between the architects and I it is very tricky...I can't import DWG, I have often problems with layers, I can't update the model as reference, the models are not in exactly OS (coordinates) position, I can't select like object...ect...ect...
Fortunately LW is very fast and the quality is good for animations and still images, I don't want to change it. I can manage everything...but it's not easy, also to find some else, because (you know) all work with 3DS. In any case if I would like increase the quality I should think to another solution.
I guess that if in NT did changes like make it more "professional" and delete some stupid and old tools could be great.

...in conclusion...UPDATE as other 3D pack.And don't stay inside a crystal box.

Sanchon
05-14-2015, 05:58 AM
My opinion is that VPR is, at the moment, the only thing in LW very useful and great than the others 3D pack.

I agree. I tested many of the realtime previewers and VPR is the most fastest. It can handle insane amount of data without any delays. You have full control over quality/speed ( using indyvidual GI settings and more ). But remember - the idea came from Core...

Niko3D
05-14-2015, 06:53 AM
I agree. I tested many of the realtime previewers and VPR is the most fastest. It can handle insane amount of data without any delays. You have full control over quality/speed ( using indyvidual GI settings and more ). But remember - the idea came from Core...

I agree...eheheheh...VPR is very powerful and I think it's the Head in LW.

One thing is very strange that it makes me think.
A few weeks ago I chatted (in front of one beer) with one of my friend. He's a visualiser and he's veeeery good, he's a guru 3Dartist and make incredible renders for famous companies ect...
He always used 3DS Max and bla bla bla...he know Lightwave but not like a user. So he didn't know the VPR!!!!!!!And when I told him about the power of that he remained still with open mouth.
But he didn't realized how the VPR is incredible fast and solid...and he's not the first!So it is not something so obvious as for us.

So I think...
- How many people do not know VPR???I mean...how really it works.
- Do NT needs to do more and more Advertisement???

Because perhaps LW needs more users > more money > more updates > more efficient > big community >>>...

prometheus
05-14-2015, 07:16 AM
VPR is indeed a strong selling feature for lightwave, but it should be even better to really give more upperhand, with that could be improvements to work directly in module scalable viewport and to allow for pause and resume render, direct replay of previews the way viper handles it, saving of volumetric presets, and throw in some old fprime features...and finally, make sure it match the final render output on most things possibe such as subsurface materials and bloom, lensflare post process, and finally and last..improve speed.

They are probably constantly working with it though, reports are that some stuff are faster in 2015, but I haven´t invested in 2015 this time around.

Michael

prometheus
05-14-2015, 07:18 AM
I agree. I tested many of the realtime previewers and VPR is the most fastest. It can handle insane amount of data without any delays. You have full control over quality/speed ( using indyvidual GI settings and more ). But remember - the idea came from Core...

it seems to handle volumetrics faster than modo previewer,(hard to tell with comparing different volumetric systems shading quality options) then again ..it is also determined by the volumetric handler itself, and a boost of Hv´s performance would help the overall VPR previewing too.

Niko3D
05-14-2015, 08:35 AM
They are probably constantly working with it though, reports are that some stuff are faster in 2015, but I haven´t invested in 2015 this time around.

Michael

me neither...I'll wait the next release.

lardbros
05-14-2015, 08:52 AM
Have to agree with the VPR comments! I've tried many of the other preview renderers, and just got frustrated.
They were slowwww... and you just didn't get the feedback that VPR gives.

Even a scene with brute force GI and and animation and volumetrics is crazy fast. Often times I find VPR is way faster than even the OpenGL viewports! Ha!

My colleague's (using 3ds Max) first wish is to have this kind of preview renderer in 3ds Max. They are literally gobsmacked when I show them DoF and Motion Blur in VPR, with GI on and gorgeous reflections controlled by fairly complex nodal networks.

I personally don't think LW3d Group are selling the capability of VPR enough. It's a game changer for me, and makes lighting scenes a synch!
Excited to see how VPR evolves in the coming years.

hrgiger
05-14-2015, 10:09 AM
Well why shouldn't VPR be fast? LW rendering and Layout has been the focus for a long time now. Maybe if they would have not let modeler languish for so long, everyone wouldn't be here carrying VPR around on their shoulders like a champ. Not to mention VPR was one of the techs they lifted from CORE, which was a result of them exploring a new architecture for LightWave.

ianr
05-14-2015, 11:00 AM
Sometimes you have to be happy for small mercies, O hard, carapaced one!

Niko3D
05-14-2015, 11:12 AM
Well why shouldn't VPR be fast? LW rendering and Layout has been the focus for a long time now. Maybe if they would have not let modeler languish for so long, everyone wouldn't be here carrying VPR around on their shoulders like a champ. Not to mention VPR was one of the techs they lifted from CORE, which was a result of them exploring a new architecture for LightWave.

But because the technology improves...the VPR of 4 years ago was worse than now...

lardbros
05-14-2015, 11:53 AM
No pleasing some people.
Lighting is also great fun in LightWave...

Imagine having 6 light types, and only 2 of them work properly in one renderer, and the other 4 only work in the other renderer, and not all of those have everything you need in them. That's 3dsmax for you... It's a nightmare.

LightWave has third party lights, and its own set and they ALL work with the renderer and with VPR! I can light a scene in minutes rather than hours. Same with texturing.

I think VPR is very underrated,its brilliant at what it does.
Even so, modeler has been neglected, but I model using other tools if I need to. It doesn't bother me at the moment. I think there are so many niche tools for set tasks, for instance HDR light studio, that LightWave can get away with being a decent renderer and brilliant VPR preview kit, and many don't mind. Eventually the modelling section will get looked at, but currently I'm certain there will be a valid reason why it hasn't been for so long.

hrgiger
05-14-2015, 01:15 PM
But because the technology improves...the VPR of 4 years ago was worse than now...

But still better faster then both modo previewer and fprime at the time.

vonpietro
05-14-2015, 03:38 PM
lwbrush, turbulance fd, lwcad, and a now advanced placement bring lw functionality to the present. (sorry if i didnt mention all the other multitudes of free and non free plug in developers as well)

Lightwave still has very dedicated people helping to maintain and update, and push lightwave in new and creative ways - they help lightwave stay relevant, and are the unsung lightwave hero's in my book!!

I do agree that newtek group needs to get off there butts and make more links to other people creating products. - We are seeing octane relationship benefits, and some others like HDRI people.

I think its in newteks best interest to really do more for integration into other apps. - Lightwave's achilles heel is that it's behind in so many areas. So, embrace the others who are ahead and provide integration into lightwave even limited. People are going to switch anyway, so if you make it supported in even simple ways that are helpful, lightwave is still useful. With so many people still using lightwave, being able to use other apps smoothly with lightwave will keep it even more relevant for years to come.

That is why i keep saying - blender support is going to be a really big thing. Getting camera, material equivalents, position, and objects and lights to and from blender will really help. Already blender has so many things that lightwave doesn't its getting depressing- except for one - lightwave is much more intuitive to use and still allows a user to get visuals extremely quickly. (aside for fbx support of course - i mean a dedicated way to get simple camera data in an out with no fuss)

Thanks newtek for keeping lightwave alive. Please focus on better animation tools, providing easy walk cycle tools, and clean up bullet so that a feather can't move a rock (seriously why is it a 1 pound weight can move a 10,000,000 pound weight), i'd also like to be able to take a car with all it's parents and flip it over and over without said peices all flying away - so some sort of constraint system with parenting would also be nice.)

prometheus
05-14-2015, 05:40 PM
Even a scene with brute force GI and and animation and volumetrics is crazy fast. Often times I find VPR is way faster than even the OpenGL viewports! Ha!


yeah...I can put in a terrain with 3 millions of polygons and displacements, instance it a couple of times, with active shading in openGL, but it becomes a little slow with shading on when rotating the cam or perspective...
but switching to VPR, and it becomes much faster to move around.

kopperdrake
05-15-2015, 05:53 AM
I shared a screen of a development to two clients a few weeks ago (owner and art director), and mentioned we now plant blades of grass and flowers where it once would have been a texture. When I switched to a VPR render their eyes just popped! They then ask questions - "Can we move that person, can we lower the sunlight etc".

"Sure you can!" Again - you could see the look on their faces - it was as if doors were opening in their minds - they were physically art directing me in real time, and getting real time feedback from their requests, all via Skype.

Nope - VPR and instancing for me are invaluable and coupled with the new Clip Map being built into an object's Surface Panel rather than having to add it to the Object Properties on a scene-by-scene basis, have sped up my arch viz workflow tremendously!

Seriously - if you're into arch viz, 2015 and the Clip Map change are worth it alone in terms of speed of populating a scene with foliage! And yes, VPR does seem quicker.

Niko3D
05-15-2015, 07:53 AM
But still better faster then both modo previewer and fprime at the time.

You're right. If we want to compare it to Modo or fprime yes...;)
But I think that LW has to improve in any case...:)

jasonwestmas
05-15-2015, 08:21 AM
Yeah, I think Lighwave users have always boasted about the rendering workflow of Lightwave and FPrime for the past 10 years or so. These days It's time to find something else to boast about.

ianr
05-15-2015, 08:26 AM
Well said seriously.
P.M. that part to Rob Powers ask him to learn it by heart,
for his next marketing outing... :lwicon:
A lovely description.not shabby! Well done


[QUOTE=kopperdrake;1431739]I shared a screen of a development to two clients a few weeks ago (owner and art director), and mentioned we now plant blades of grass and flowers where it once would have been a texture. When I switched to a VPR render their eyes just popped! They then ask questions - "Can we move that person, can we lower the sunlight etc"."Sure you can!" Again - you could see the look on their faces - it was as if doors were opening in their minds - they were physically art directing me in real time, and getting real time feedback from their requests, all via Skype.

Niko3D
05-15-2015, 08:47 AM
Yeah, I think Lighwave users have always boasted about the rendering workflow of Lightwave and FPrime for the past 10 years or so. These days It's time to find something else to boast about.

I totally agree!
No way about VPR...all of us know that it's SUPER powerful and it deserves more and more advertisement!
But...I mean...all the rest is a bit old...I need updates and fresh air.