PDA

View Full Version : I don't understand how people can use Lightwave. Please change my mind.



haroldini
04-14-2015, 10:14 AM
Sorry if this is ranty, but I just started a new job where the head honcho prefers Lightwave. It's small studio and I understand that it's cheaper and using the same package helps speed development, but coming from Cinema 4D, LW seems broken. Granted C4D isn't the best in the world and I had my fair share of problems with it, but I would much rather use that than LW.

First, undo (or more accurately the lack thereof). Seriously. It's not so bad in Modeler, but the way it works in Layout would be considered broken in any other package. I'm terrified of doing any type of experimenting in Layout for fear of not getting back to where I was. And yes I'm aware of incremental saving and the footprint functions in the graph editor, but those slow me down and pulls me out of my train of thought. I don't want 100 versions of a scene just because I want to see the result of a slight change in a surface slider or a change in animation.

Second, the surface editor. A good portion of this is the previously discussed non existent undo. On top of that though I have a multi-monitor set up where I put the main window on one and the floating windows on the other. I will constantly click on the wrong surface editor. I understand there are benefits to separating the modeling and animation/rendering/etc., but the surface windows are literally the same. Judging by how my boss (who has been using LW forever) constantly does it, I don't think I will ever sort it out. It might seem like a small thing, but doing it 10-20 times a day adds up. Also I can't stand that you can't delete a surface without unasigning all its the geometry, saving, and reloading. It's just more useless info that I have to sort through when I'm trying to find the actual surface I want to work on.

Third, support/general tutorials. I never had a problem finding up to date resources when using C4D, but whenever I look for LW tutorials I don't think I've found one that was made in the past year or two. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. If there are any good resources I would greatly appreciate getting pointed toward them.

I've been having problems other than this, but these are the big ones. Please help. I need to learn to at least play nice with this program.

shrox
04-14-2015, 10:18 AM
Lightwave is generally considered one of the easiest to learn and use .

ernpchan
04-14-2015, 10:34 AM
1. Unfortunately this isn't going to change without a major change under the hood of the software. Your gripe/observation, etc isn't new. It's a long standing issue even for seasoned users. I don't really have any advice aside from "don't make any mistakes" but I say that in jest. It's just how the program is.

2. The different windows have different colored icons in the upper left so you could use that to identify what environment you're in. This could be more of a workflow thing in that I believe most people do the majority of their surfacing in Layout. Of course polygon surface assignment still has to be done in Modeler. But I don't believe doing a lot of surfacing finessing in Modeler is practical since you don't have lights and etc in Modeler. As for the deleting of unused surfaces, there may or may not be a script out there that closes and reloads the model. I know I have one that does exactly that. Just make sure whatever you're doing in Layout and Modeler are in-sync. If you use the Hub you should be fine. Personally I don't use the Hub so I have to always remember to make sure what I have open in both environments are in-sync.

3. There are actually a lot of tutorials out there. There's a lot on youtube and the LW3DG has done a decent job at trying to create current learning material.
https://www.lightwave3d.com/learn/

When in doubt you could ask the forum for help. We're pretty helpful.

jasonwestmas
04-14-2015, 11:19 AM
Actually those are the small problems I have with lightwave. I can easily work around those by saving incremental saves on hand. Of course your memory needs to be sharp remembering which files are which if you have breakage. Just name them in a way that makes the most sense. One of the greatest advantages with lightwave is that when you do understand what is going on you won't have nearly as many things break on you as the monster applications do. That's mainly because it has less overhead and things in the background creating useless data when you change things, things that you need to clean up often. That's another annoying thing about other packages, a lack of directness and simplicity when you need it.

MarcusM
04-14-2015, 11:26 AM
How long you learn LW? What kind of work you must do in LW in new job? It's like matter of taste, if something you do not like does not mean it is ugly. Be patient.
I can highly recommand LW manual addendum: http://lightwiki.com/wiki/LightWave3D_Manuals
Remember, maybe your boss is forum user ;]

SteveH
04-14-2015, 11:49 AM
That's right Harold...I AM a forum user. Can you come to my office for a minute - I'd like to talk to you....



Sorry.....I couldn't resist. Not helpful I know...sorry....leaving now.....

bazsa73
04-14-2015, 12:12 PM
Hi Harold, as for the tutorials you best look on these forums. There are zillions of tips and tricks scattered throughout the threads and if you are stuck I am sure someone will answer your questions.

shrox
04-14-2015, 12:14 PM
That's right Harold...I AM a forum user. Can you come to my office for a minute - I'd like to talk to you....



Sorry.....I couldn't resist. Not helpful I know...sorry....leaving now.....

Geez, that even scared me.

sampei
04-14-2015, 12:16 PM
here's a few pointers:

- force yourself to re-learn things that you think you already know, keep in mind that all of your work habits and flows that were valid for C4D will probably need to be revised for LW
- use the search function on the forums, chances are your questions have already been answered more than once
- there are lots of good tutorials, even many older ones are still very much relevant; if you ask for something more specific you'll probably receive some excellent suggestions
- more than a few users agree that M/L separation is annoying, but if you're going to be stuck with LW you might as well move on and learn how to live with it (also if you F12 and aren't sure about the surface editor, hit f5)
- there's also a ton of useful plugins and lscripts, have a look through the database...it's literally a gold mine

prometheus
04-14-2015, 12:46 PM
I can feel your frustration haroldini..and I can imagine there is a lot of valid frustration in there....guess you need to give it time though, to find other things that will give the opposite feeling once you switch back to cinema4d now and then :)

Yupp the undo system in layout...they need something better, my frustration isnīt with split screens though...since I am only using one, my frustration is lack of drag and drop direct surface appliance, not able to get away with that horrible..do you really want to load surface..duh..yah, and the lack of delete surface..when creating objects directly in layout, it auto creates a double surface and one of them isnīt assigned to anything..so sometimes I start tweaking the wrong surface.

Tutorials..understandable if you come from a software developer that I am quite sure of have a larger user base, but you say..canīt find any tutorial...that should be a tutorial that fits your need...everyone can find tutorials and good ones and also very recent ones...what you are looking for is in a veil though.

Good luck and give it some time to melt in a bit.

Now..what kind of tutorials are you looking for?...we canīt just go about...give me that nice fruit that tastes so good...que? what fruit?
there are buckloads of old 24 hours of william vaughan training and lot of others, available in these forums..and in youtube and addititional lightwave youtube page, and thatīs the free ones.


Michael

shrox
04-14-2015, 12:53 PM
here's a few pointers:

- force yourself to re-learn things that you think you already know, keep in mind that all of your work habits and flows that were valid for C4D will probably need to be revised for LW
- use the search function on the forums, chances are your questions have already been answered more than once
- there are lots of good tutorials, even many older ones are still very much relevant; if you ask for something more specific you'll probably receive some excellent suggestions
- more than a few users agree that M/L separation is annoying, but if you're going to be stuck with LW you might as well move on and learn how to live with it (also if you F12 and aren't sure about the surface editor, hit f5)
- there's also a ton of useful plugins and lscripts, have a look through the database...it's literally a gold mine

I concur.

Dexter2999
04-14-2015, 01:19 PM
Sorry to hear you are having issues settling in with LW. I'm sure it isn't what you are used to or are comfortable with but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do right?

Here are some sources for training:

Free!
https://www.lightwave3d.com/learn/

Paid
http://www.liberty3d.com/store/training/lightwave/lightwave-11-x/

http://www.lynda.com/search?q=lightwave

http://www.digitaltutors.com/tutorial/1943-Modeling-a-Realistic-Helicopter-in-LightWave-3D

http://www.3dgarage.com/collections/newtek-lightwave-3d

If you are doing rigging and animation, I would also highly suggest RHA
http://www.rebelhill.net/html/products.html


And yes, no one here will argue the aggravation of the lack of an undo. We feel your pain. And know it can only be worse because it was something you had before now don't.


Don't discount old tutorials. While there have been some major additions over the years, some fundamental stuff hasn't changed radically. So there is still value.
Hope these links help. And welcome to the LW community.

jwiede
04-14-2015, 01:26 PM
- there are lots of good tutorials, even many older ones are still very much relevant; if you ask for something more specific you'll probably receive some excellent suggestions

He's got a valid point, though, old tutorials presenting outdated versions of the UI aren't particularly useful for novice users (and can often be counter-productive). They're fine for experienced users who've been around and understand how the UI has changed over time, but for novices who simply don't know "where things are" tutorials with obsolete UI just add to their confusion instead of mitigating it. That includes a LOT of the "standards" like the various Proton-created tutorials, which date from v9 or prior. There just doesn't seem to be enough effort going towards releasing updated versions of existing tutorials (an exception is Dan Ablan's stuff, and kudos to him for providing updated versions).

Dexter2999
04-14-2015, 01:29 PM
He's got a valid point, though, old tutorials presenting outdated versions of the UI aren't particularly useful for novice users (and can often be counter-productive). They're fine for experienced users who've been around and understand how the UI has changed over time, but for novices who simply don't know "where things are" tutorials with obsolete UI just add to their confusion instead of mitigating it.


Well for that matter, what version of the menus is he using? Standard? Studio? Custom?


PS. TIP to the new LW User: Find your Config files and make a backup once you start customizing your menus and keyboard layout. They get corrupted from time to time and need to be deleted and replaced, especially if you are working between older and newer versions of the software (Most notably now during the LW11.5/LW2015 versions).

spherical
04-14-2015, 02:19 PM
Second, the surface editor. A good portion of this is the previously discussed non existent undo. On top of that though I have a multi-monitor set up where I put the main window on one and the floating windows on the other. I will constantly click on the wrong surface editor. I understand there are benefits to separating the modeling and animation/rendering/etc., but the surface windows are literally the same. Judging by how my boss (who has been using LW forever) constantly does it, I don't think I will ever sort it out. It might seem like a small thing, but doing it 10-20 times a day adds up.

A solution to this is how I set mine up:
Layout main window on left monitor, panels arranged in a matrix on right monitor.
Modeler main window on right monitor, panels arranged in a matrix on left monitor.

Alt-tabbing back and forth or clicking on the interface of the desired application brings all of the related panels to the front.

If the Surface Editor is on the right monitor, obscuring Modeler's main window, it is Layout's Surface Editor.
If the Surface Editor is on the left monitor, obscuring Layout's main window, it is Modeler's Surface Editor.

As for tutorials, there is a Sticky at the top of the LW - General Techniques, Tips and Tricks forum: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?77002-Hours-of-Free-LightWave-Training-%2824-Hours-%29 that should get you well into it.

Danner
04-14-2015, 03:18 PM
I've taught LightWave to quite a few Max and Softimage users and most feel frustrated at first, but also most of them adapt in a couple of weeks and begin to see the good side of Lightwave. (VPR, plethora of tools, methods, render quality, price, comunity etc.) I've actually learned a lot from them too because they would ask me about workflow issues they are having with something that was easier with their previous piece of software and I investigate and usually find a way to help them and I get a new technique in the process. They still feel some nostalgia for their original package, but they are productive and are tightly integrated with the rest of the pipeline. Now switching our studio from Photoshop to Gimp was so painful that we are going back to the dark side.

Sensei
04-14-2015, 04:36 PM
And yes I'm aware of incremental saving and the footprint functions in the graph editor, but those slow me down and pulls me out of my train of thought.

Check my free SaveSceneAndAllObjectsIncrement plugin at http://www.trueart.eu
Assign it to short-cut key.
It'll save either all objects and scene at the same time. Without showing any window.



I have a multi-monitor set up where I put the main window on one and the floating windows on the other. I will constantly click on the wrong surface editor. I understand there are benefits to separating the modeling and animation/rendering/etc., but the surface windows are literally the same. Judging by how my boss (who has been using LW forever) constantly does it, I don't think I will ever sort it out. It might seem like a small thing, but doing it 10-20 times a day adds up.

I don't understand why it's problem.
When I have either Modeler & Layout simultaneously run (and with hub), when I am doing change in Modeler's Surface Editor, and switching back to Layout, surface is automatically updated (and its Surface Editor too). And probably vice versa.

Wouldn't be better to have Modeler on 1st monitor (+Numeric Panel, Layout panel, Statistics), and Layout on 2nd monitor.. ?



Third, support/general tutorials. I never had a problem finding up to date resources when using C4D, but whenever I look for LW tutorials I don't think I've found one that was made in the past year or two. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. If there are any good resources I would greatly appreciate getting pointed toward them.

But that would require over and over rerecording them every year.. Every version, and revision of app..
Tutorials are recorded once, and then staying for future.



I've been having problems other than this, but these are the big ones. Please help. I need to learn to at least play nice with this program.

With time you will learn new app.

Dodgy
04-14-2015, 06:26 PM
Danner, you should try Serif's Photoplus. It's virtually a clone of Photoshop for only 79 quid. It does some things better, and misses some of its latest features, but the UI is the closest to PS I've come across.

04-14-2015, 06:58 PM
Here's some for you, in no particular order:
First, yep, learn the craft, don't depend on a whole bunch of presets and crank up your confidence that what you do is right. Or remembered. Or save. Or, oh dung, gotta remember to save that next time...

As to the dual monitors, put modeler on one monitor and layout on the other with all panels on the opposite monitor. In particular, make sure the surface editor of the other is under the main application window. In this manner, no clicking on the wrong SE is likely.


I've seen a lot of new Tutes being touted. But I agree: there don't seem to be a lot of until you stumble upon them.


I teach LW, and lately Blender. I feel your angst. I know the lack of presets is going to be maddening. Bevel presets, text presets, animation presets...
But boy, are you gonna have some fun. Approach it with an outlandish attitude and you should be good. It is a very capable program as long as you are willing to work at it.

Good luck. Your situation is envied.

jwiede
04-14-2015, 09:45 PM
But that would require over and over rerecording them every year.. Every version, and revision of app..

Reductio ad absurdum aside (not every revision mandates updating, clearly), for each new LW version Dan Ablan has provided an updated "Signature" course.

In the C4D tutorial community, such updates are a much more common occurrence. When R13/R14 updated a bunch of central C4D UI, a couple tutorial content producers basically re-released their entire feature-based content updated to the new UIs. Even as an experienced user, I find myself much preferring the updated versions for reference, simply because I don't mentally have to translate the UI to account for changes over time. Cineversity (the MAXON US-sponsored C4D tutorial provider) provides basic "what is where" tutorial content for every single new version, because they understand how difficult a time users have working with software when they lack that information.

Nobody expects ALL tutorial content to be updated, but for the "what features are where" kind of basic tutorial content offerings, it isn't just reasonable to expect updates for new versions, it's necessary.

Sensei
04-14-2015, 09:58 PM
In the C4D tutorial community, such updates are a much more common occurrence.

Apparently they must have 6 digits income, not 3 digits income..

djwaterman
04-15-2015, 01:05 AM
How frustrating. On the plus side, at least you're employed. I wish I could find a job where they use Lightwave. Use this forum to ask specific questions when stuck. Like, what's the LW equivalent to the ---- function in C4d? They're pretty quick to respond, although I don't know how many users know their way around C4d.

Danner
04-15-2015, 03:24 AM
Danner, you should try Serif's Photoplus. It's virtually a clone of Photoshop for only 79 quid. It does some things better, and misses some of its latest features, but the UI is the closest to PS I've come across.
Thanx I'll investigate.

bazsa73
04-15-2015, 11:36 AM
my co-worker said today when he saw me using LW that it looks like coding in assembly, by which he meant that it is a cool set of tools but you really have to do
things by hand repeatedly. Serialization is missing badly. It's like a XVII. century manufacture or even more predated. A guild. We do stuff by hand.
Hey, how trendy is that today. Handmade 3D.

erikals
04-15-2015, 01:54 PM
Thanx I'll investigate.

just tested it a bit, seems you cannot adjust the brush size by holding down the Ctrl key?
otherwise, yep, pretty much looks like a PhotoShop clone

i like some aspects of PhotoLine better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BfuwYmBfbU
but then again there are other things about it i'd like to see fixed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZafS4fWNKoY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faVMtjQ-9gQ

but keep en eye on PhotoLine as well...

JoePoe
04-15-2015, 02:35 PM
just tested it a bit, seems you cannot adjust the brush size by holding down the Ctrl key?
otherwise, yep, pretty much looks like a PhotoShop clone

If it's anything like the MAC version they're working on (Affinity Photo) try holding down Control and Alt together. You can adjust Size and Hardness at the same time :hey:. Up/down for hardness left/right for size. Pretty nifty. :thumbsup:
(It's been awhile since I've been in an up-to-date Pshop release... so maybe it's the same.)
...or, brackets to step up/down just the size.

Affinity Designer has almost replaced Illustrator for me.... and it's only been out a year.

tyrot
04-15-2015, 02:38 PM
dude. who will give you money?
broadcast..? stay with C4D.. midlevel vfx..smoke? particles..etc? C4D
archviz...lightwave...we have lwcad ..they dont have.. we beat every other modeler out there..
game... indygame?.. lightwave... pro-game...max maya

jwiede
04-15-2015, 06:07 PM
archviz...lightwave...we have lwcad ..they dont have.. we beat every other modeler out there..

Are you suggesting that LW owns more of archviz market than Max(+Vray), Maya(+Vray), C4D(+Vray), etc.?

Dodgy
04-15-2015, 07:30 PM
If it's anything like the MAC version they're working on (Affinity Photo) try holding down Control and Alt together.
...or, brackets to step up/down just the size.

Those Affinity programs do look nice, I wish they'd done them for PC. The brackets do adjust the size in Photoplus, but not the ctrl/alt combination unfortunately.

- - - Updated - - -



but keep en eye on PhotoLine as well...

With the price of both, you could buy a dozen programs instead of Photoshop....

prometheus
04-16-2015, 04:34 AM
I thought revit is the stuff for serious archviz work, or am I getting it wrong and confusing archviz with architectural construction?

thereīs a buckload of job ads here in sweden when searching the text string "revit" nothing with lightwave unfortunatly, even though lightwave is also covering more than archviz jobs, lightwave marketing seeds havenīt fallen in to good growth soil over here unfortunatly, the soil is full of autodesk weeds leaving little room for anything else.

Michael

tyrot
04-16-2015, 07:27 AM
no no.. modeler side of things are really good because of lwcad .. also lets say you are kinda indie archviz company.. u can survive with lwcad..lw and octane as we do...
of course big share of archviz still in the control of max .

kopperdrake
04-16-2015, 04:47 PM
To save clicking on the wrong windows, I just have the Surface Editor and Image Editor open in exactly the same postions on my second monitor, regardless of whether I'm in Layout or Modeler - that way I only need to know mentally where they are positioned, and the correct one will always be on top. I couldn't cope with Layout and Modeler being on different screens as I centre my main screen in front of me, and it would feel like I were riding side saddle if I had one application off to my right at an angle :)

haroldini
04-17-2015, 09:44 AM
dang this blew up. i really appreciate all the comments and am glad to see that i'm not alone in my frustrations. i will definitely be referring back to this for future reference.

--------


How long you learn LW? What kind of work you must do in LW in new job? It's like matter of taste, if something you do not like does not mean it is ugly. Be patient.
I can highly recommand LW manual addendum: http://lightwiki.com/wiki/LightWave3D_Manuals
Remember, maybe your boss is forum user ;]

i've been in it for a couple months now. since we are a small studio we freelance some more advanced modeling, but other than that literally everything. that addendum manual looks really good, thanks for pointing it out.

------


That's right Harold...I AM a forum user. Can you come to my office for a minute - I'd like to talk to you....


Sorry.....I couldn't resist. Not helpful I know...sorry....leaving now.....

i hope i've been around the internet long enough to not disclose enough information to pinpoint my identity.

here's looking at you NSA. :heart:

------


Check my free SaveSceneAndAllObjectsIncrement plugin at http://www.trueart.eu
Assign it to short-cut key.
It'll save either all objects and scene at the same time. Without showing any window.

i'll have to check this out

------


Here's some for you, in no particular order:
First, yep, learn the craft, don't depend on a whole bunch of presets and crank up your confidence that what you do is right. Or remembered. Or save. Or, oh dung, gotta remember to save that next time...

I teach LW, and lately Blender. I feel your angst. I know the lack of presets is going to be maddening. Bevel presets, text presets, animation presets...
But boy, are you gonna have some fun. Approach it with an outlandish attitude and you should be good. It is a very capable program as long as you are willing to work at it.

it's not the presets i miss from c4d. i actually prefer doing stuff by hand. i mainly miss how much tweaking to objects you can do with parameters before deciding on a shape you want in editable polys. i.e. if you want to rail extrude a shape along a path you can edit the shape, path, and orientation in real time before deciding on a shape you like.

jeric_synergy
04-17-2015, 12:43 PM
To me, this is akin to switching between musical instruments-- it's always going to be painful.

Add on top of that all the repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly pointed out shortcomings of the aging UI, well, I don't envy you coming from a modern interface.

That said, people SEEM to get superior, or at least comparable, results w/LW compared to other apps, and eventually come to praise LW's speed. So, buck up, it's going to be a chore but the end result might be very interesting.

(One bad thing about INCREMENTAL FILES: afaict, LW doesn't automatically enter the last file incrementally saved into the RECENT FILES list-- which I think sucks bad. So be sure to use the OPEN FILE dialog rather than EVER relying on the RECENT FILE list-- it can lead you astray. I can't imagine wth they were thinking when they coded it that way.)

haroldini
04-17-2015, 02:20 PM
That said, people SEEM to get superior, or at least comparable, results w/LW compared to other apps, and eventually come to praise LW's speed. So, buck up, it's going to be a chore but the end result might be very interesting.

(One bad thing about INCREMENTAL FILES: afaict, LW doesn't automatically enter the last file incrementally saved into the RECENT FILES list-- which I think sucks bad. So be sure to use the OPEN FILE dialog rather than EVER relying on the RECENT FILE list-- it can lead you astray. I can't imagine wth they were thinking when they coded it that way.)

that's true. i've seen stuff my boss has done in the past and it looks amazing so obviously it can handle the work load.

the recent file list is another gripe i have. it's almost never the big things that bother me about lightwave, it's the tiny annoyances that add up over the day.

jeric_synergy
04-17-2015, 05:15 PM
it's almost never the big things that bother me about lightwave, it's the tiny annoyances that add up over the day.
I hear ya bro: I am a very low-level animator, and all the talk about high-end renderers and even FBX doesn't even apply to me.

But the little, simple stuff I have to walk/work around Every Damn Day? Makes it hard to stay positive.

But I'm too lazy to switch now.

Areyos Alektor
04-19-2015, 03:58 PM
In my opinion it's your way of approaching LightWave going wrong. Each software has his philosophy but in the end you can do the same thing. It's only a matter of apprehension. If you seek to reproduce the way you had under Cinema 4D you lose your time and your energy, where your frustration ;) You gotta think 3D, then what to put behind to get the result. The software is not the most important, understanding it's of advantage. And then you are varnish, you now have access to the best community that is ! It's better than the best plugins :)

prometheus
04-20-2015, 02:52 AM
a different perspective...

I have yet to be comfortable with The modo environment, I love some stuff in it and with that comes some better implemented stuff in volumetrics that isnīt available in Lightwave, that said...and inspite of the shortcomings of the lightwave UI (mainly lack of docking and expanding/collapse panels) and the lack of undoīs in layout...I still feel more at ease with the lightwave environment cause it feels like a movie stage with nicely organized camera,light,and objects.
In modo I just donīt get comfortable with itīs UI..mainly how it is organized and itīs shader tree, but it might take some serious spending time with it to get another feel for it I guess.

cinema4d..well, only tried it some years ago...same thing there as with max,modo etc...for me it feels like I am entering a model studio rather than a movie stage.
I reckon that is due to the nature of Lightwave foremost designed as make your models in one module and stage it in the other, so it has benifits and shortcomings because of that.

I just hope they can implement more of model creation and tweaking inside of layout someday, weight paint, point and model sculpting in layout, undoīs and if we were to be lucky, non destructiv and dynamic text creation, then fixing some UI panel docking/expanding and getting better volumetrics, then I will be a very happy dude.
Hopefully I would like to see such implementation done with the Movie stage UI integrity intact.

brent3d
04-20-2015, 05:41 AM
that's true. i've seen stuff my boss has done in the past and it looks amazing so obviously it can handle the work load.

the recent file list is another gripe i have. it's almost never the big things that bother me about lightwave, it's the tiny annoyances that add up over the day.

How did you get a job using LW in the first place without being familiar with it? I'm sure your Art Director or Lead/Senior Artist asked you about your experience with LW and/or your willingness to learn it, if so where is your open minded attitude that you probably expressed in your interview? I'm sure there are lots of LW artist on this forum who would gladly relieve you of your burden.

lightscape
04-20-2015, 06:53 AM
All valid points.
Undo is a problem in lw and has been mentioned lots of times. There's no excuse for it.

The lack of quality videos from Newtek is another big issue. I don't know what happened to the LW3d group but only Lino has done some video tutorials and they're few and far between. I don't know if Cody is still with them but he was supposed to be the tutorial guy representing Lightwave.
Rob Powers promised training videos for Lightwave since v10 but honestly for a company selling software the amount of videos from them is pretty weak.

erikals
04-20-2015, 07:47 AM
Undo is a problem in lw and has been mentioned lots of times. There's no excuse for it.
agree,

i've already made undo solutions for the Surface Editor,
i've also made undo solutions in Modeler Selections
for other Layout stuff it's simply just about creating a log file that the undo system can access

it has to be more about lack of development time, rather than "impossible", cause it's quite possible.

- integration of Modeler / Layout tools ? ...don't get me started...

Sanchon
04-20-2015, 08:09 AM
Unfortunately, in my opinion the problem is the insufficient number of developers working on Lightwave. After months they still looking for modeler developer. That is why we have such slow progress in relation to the competition, lacking of tutorials, advanced plugins.

MarcusM
04-20-2015, 08:44 AM
Unfortunately, in my opinion the problem is the insufficient number of developers working on Lightwave. After months they still looking for modeler developer. That is why we have such slow progress in relation to the competition, lacking of tutorials, advanced plugins.

They should have IT outsourcing in Poland ;]

jeric_synergy
04-20-2015, 02:07 PM
Someone upthread made the point that each s/w has an optimum PATH to the animation solution. This is most certainly true.

One of the things the OP might consider is watching/buying Splinegod's tutorials, esp. if you can purchase them in a way that benefits Larry's widow. Larry (Splinegod for you noobs) had the most original and unique ways of approaching Lightwave-centric animation tasks. I watch them and inevitably smack my forehead in multiple "of COURSE!" moments. He was old school so not much nodal stuff, but his approaches spawn creative thinking. If you want to master LW, go there.

prometheus
04-21-2015, 01:04 PM
Unfortunately, in my opinion the problem is the insufficient number of developers working on Lightwave. After months they still looking for modeler developer. That is why we have such slow progress in relation to the competition, lacking of tutorials, advanced plugins.

Might just turn in to Not knowing speculation? do we really know this? do the modo team have more? or is it a question about actually finding the right people..and with that I mean extremly talented developers.....I canīt say anything about how it is since I just donīt know, so
I might as well just shut up and not speak about things I donīt know. :D

I can only voice my concern and fear as a sort of opinion, it is just based on my gut feeling of recent development advances in time etc that didnīt exite me that much..but I canīt state anything based on true facts.
I have been concerned over...and wondered over if they are having extreme difficulties with finding the right people (really skilled guys) or if it is the old code that still presents itself as a harder nut to crack than they ever imagined, I am positive in thinking they are really working hard to overcome obstacles and introduce new stuff etc...but it also requires fulfillment of the previous elements.

I was also concerned that when chronosculpt came along..it may have destracted them..taking time and focus from lightwave development, that is what I thought chronosculpt would do when it came out..and that is sort of a gut feeling that lingers on with me still.....but I beg you pardon to the whole lightwave team if they sincerly know that such speculations from me is completly up the roof so to speak, it is just my speculative feeling, how it really is and how they conduct their business, that is something I canīt judge upon with any true weight.

I sincerely hope chronosculpt was a smart move and brings in additional funds to further strenghten Lightwave preferably with more resources to develop it in the future...maybe it takes quite some time to get there?

What I donīt understand is... why they donīt use the cerebro machine and locate that volumetric mutant that created ogo taiki, and then control his mind to update it to a much more enhanced version :)
and then go find some more developers.

haroldini
04-21-2015, 01:08 PM
How did you get a job using LW in the first place without being familiar with it? I'm sure your Art Director or Lead/Senior Artist asked you about your experience with LW and/or your willingness to learn it, if so where is your open minded attitude that you probably expressed in your interview? I'm sure there are lots of LW artist on this forum who would gladly relieve you of your burden.

i love my job and couldn't ask for a better one in my situation. it's is not LW specific. we do lots of other things which i am perfectly well suited for. and before i had delved into LW i was more than happy to learn it. i've given tons of other 3d package out there a shot and while they had their differences, they seemed to function similarly on the surface. but to me, LW is such a deviation from the norm i am having a very difficult time adjusting.

------------




agree,

i've already made undo solutions for the Surface Editor,
i've also made undo solutions in Modeler Selections
for other Layout stuff it's simply just about creating a log file that the undo system can access

it has to be more about lack of development time, rather than "impossible", cause it's quite possible.

- integration of Modeler / Layout tools ? ...don't get me started...

please point me in the directions of these solutions. i will be eternally grateful.

-----------

Someone upthread made the point that each s/w has an optimum PATH to the animation solution. This is most certainly true.

One of the things the OP might consider is watching/buying Splinegod's tutorials, esp. if you can purchase them in a way that benefits Larry's widow. Larry (Splinegod for you noobs) had the most original and unique ways of approaching Lightwave-centric animation tasks. I watch them and inevitably smack my forehead in multiple "of COURSE!" moments. He was old school so not much nodal stuff, but his approaches spawn creative thinking. If you want to master LW, go there.

i'll check these out. thanks.

prometheus
04-21-2015, 01:14 PM
They should have IT outsourcing in Poland ;]

Juangon, victor....who else do we got? so many talented guys from that country, seem to be built in to the genes.

prometheus
04-21-2015, 01:18 PM
They should have IT outsourcing in Poland ;]

double post...nevermind

erikals
04-21-2015, 02:09 PM
please point me in the directions of these solutions. i will be eternally grateful.
undo/redo selections >
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i1d1Gxf6I8
using AHK

undo/redo surface settings >
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_hncPHXkKo
could be made using AHK, but i'd much rather see NT do this...

and as stated earlier, for Layout, it's simply about creating a log file that the undo system can access

ivanze
04-21-2015, 02:09 PM
Juangon is from Spain, if I'm not wrong.

Sanchon
04-21-2015, 02:18 PM
Juangon, victor....who else do we got? so many talented guys from that country, seem to be built in to the genes.

Juangon is from Spain, Victor from Slovakia. From Poland are KRay developers, TrueArt plugin developer, Evermotion ( 3d models, textures ).

MarcusM
04-21-2015, 02:34 PM
Juangon is from Spain, Victor from Slovakia. From Poland are KRay developers, TrueArt plugin developer, Evermotion ( 3d models, textures ).

Also http://www.polas.net/contact.php

prometheus
04-21-2015, 02:54 PM
Also http://www.polas.net/contact.php

Huhh..I didnīt get one right on that did I, reminds me not to bet on the lottery this year at all, one should know stuff to be sure :D
Canīt figure out why I had that assumption that both victor and juangon was from poland, and I missed to include sensei :D

Michael

Sanchon
04-21-2015, 03:18 PM
Also http://www.polas.net/contact.php

Actually he lives in Australia

Sensei
04-21-2015, 03:30 PM
Canīt figure out why I had that assumption that both victor and juangon was from poland,

Juangon actually looks on photos as typical 50+ years old Polish guy.. :)
When I first saw him, I could bet he is Polish.

If he would arrive here, he could disappear with crowd of people not being able to be recognized as foreign (unlike f.e. Ronaldo).



and I missed to include sensei :D


You probably thought I am from Japan... :p

jwiede
04-22-2015, 07:31 PM
(Bad joke deleted)

Regardless where they are, LW3DG and us LW customers are lucky to have them developing for LW.

prometheus
04-23-2015, 05:21 AM
Juangon actually looks on photos as typical 50+ years old Polish guy.. :)
When I first saw him, I could bet he is Polish.

If he would arrive here, he could disappear with crowd of people not being able to be recognized as foreign (unlike f.e. Ronaldo).





You probably thought I am from Japan... :p


Yeah..initially I thought you were :)
Many folks here in sweden donīt take me for swedish, I often hear questions asking if I am from poland actually.

Sensei
04-23-2015, 06:09 AM
Many folks here in sweden donīt take me for swedish, I often hear questions asking if I am from poland actually.

Maybe to some level you are, if your ancestors participated in Polish-Swedish wars.. Check DNA.. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Swedish_wars
Damn, eleven....

prometheus
04-23-2015, 10:01 AM
Maybe to some level you are, if your ancestors participated in Polish-Swedish wars.. Check DNA.. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Swedish_wars
Damn, eleven....

heh..yeah, it could be ...I thought they made war not love though...Lol.

But it could be a lot, could be german,french...who knows, it was rumoured that back in the generations..it seems we have heritage from france, not sure really..just recently spoked to my sister..but itīs to vague from here, and sure..if judging by the looks of us all in the family, it might be some genes from france...I would prefer if it was from the bernadotte family. and from the general in napolean army , he was proclaimed as king in sweden some ages ago, If so...then I could claim my place at the throne or beside it in the royal family, I want to eat some of that fancy nobel price dinner food :)

And how do we get back to the OP topics after that? maybe by asking the OP starter...how nice is cinema4d interactiv render viewport? compared to lightwaveīs?


Michael

Snosrap
04-25-2015, 07:03 PM
the recent file list is another gripe i have. and what about that is your gripe?

jeric_synergy
04-27-2015, 08:23 AM
and what about that is your gripe?
I don't know about haroldini, but my gripe is that incremental saves are not included in the Recent Files list.

So, for actually, securely, reloading the latest version of a file, it's useless and misleading.

And "if that's how it's designed", it's just a bad idea and needs to be redesigned. For which, I have some ideas. Of course.

Snosrap
04-27-2015, 09:32 PM
I don't know about haroldini, but my gripe is that incremental saves are not included in the Recent Files list.

So, for actually, securely, reloading the latest version of a file, it's useless and misleading.

And "if that's how it's designed", it's just a bad idea and needs to be redesigned. For which, I have some ideas. Of course.

I see. I guess I intentionally increment my saves by typing in new names so I've never noticed that incremental saves did not show up their. I have gone into the .cfg file and have copied recent files over and over so there is more of them.

jeric_synergy
04-28-2015, 12:56 AM
If you're naming files by hand, you're not using the incremental feature, you're making new names. Manually entered names are included in the Recent Files list.

So, you're skipping the convenience of the built-in incrementation feature, which inadvertantly compensates for the crappy implementation of Recent Files.

prometheus
04-28-2015, 09:18 AM
If you're naming files by hand, you're not using the incremental feature, you're making new names. Manually entered names are included in the Recent Files list.

So, you're skipping the convenience of the built-in incrementation feature, which inadvertantly compensates for the crappy implementation of Recent Files.


What?

am I missing something or misunderstanding you here? I can save out incremental saves without manually naming..and it is available in the recent files list.

Michael

Dexter2999
04-28-2015, 10:00 AM
What?

am I missing something or misunderstanding you here?

Michael

Misunderstanding.

Manually named saves are included in "Recent" file. Auto-named saves from the Shift-S function are not.

jeric_synergy
04-28-2015, 10:04 AM
Misunderstanding.
Manually named saves are included in "Recent" file. Auto-named saves from the Shift-S function are not.
Exactly.

Unless they fixed it in 2015.

And it's sucky because it forces you to use the standard OPEN because you can't assume that the last version saved will be in the Recent Files list. Total misfeature IMO, it actually takes away from LW's functionality.

jasonwestmas
04-28-2015, 11:22 AM
I noticed that too, I can never rely on the recent files list anymore.

Dexter2999
04-28-2015, 12:02 PM
Well, to be fair if all of the auto saved versions were added to the Recent list it would be useless. (At least for me.)

So, perhaps what it needs to do is...if you are using the auto incremental saving, the current version replaces the original/previous increment on the list. So it only takes up one spot.
And the REVERT command needs an option of "Revert to previous of this object" and "Revert to previous increment" (with an input dialog/or file picker that opens the containing folder) if the auto increment save was used.

Is this making sense?

Sensei
04-28-2015, 12:09 PM
Another option would be having entire history of objects in LWO as special IFF chunk. Then pick up older one from the list.
But file would be growing and growing. But still the same file, not dozen of them..

Equivalent code for LWS is even doable for 3rd party dev.

jwiede
04-28-2015, 12:36 PM
Another option would be having entire history of objects in LWO as special IFF chunk. Then pick up older one from the list.
But file would be growing and growing. But still the same file, not dozen of them..

Equivalent code for LWS is even doable for 3rd party dev.

While "file history" support would definitely enhance LW's capabilities, adding it would also require extensive changes to most file access dialogs (adding support for version selection/rollbacks, flattening, and so forth). As a longer-term solution it definitely should be considered, esp. if proper/full references are ever added, but in and of itself doesn't intrinsically solve the "incremental saves not in Recent Files" issue -- there would still be a need to also change Recent Files list entry management.

Put another way, the problem isn't the existence of the incremental save data (there's already a mechanism to store that data), the problem is that Recent Files entry mgmt isn't properly acknowledging the existence of that data.

jeric_synergy
04-28-2015, 07:20 PM
For incremental forms, as saved by LW itself, just the LAST/latest version would be good.

Another way would be to have incremental forms sprout sub-menus-- the default/highest/root would be the last/latest, but the previous versions would appear in the submenu.

Almost ANYTHING would be better than it is now. And I think this is painfully obvious, and whoever coded it the way it is was out to lunch.

Snosrap
04-28-2015, 10:08 PM
If you're naming files by hand, you're not using the incremental feature, you're making new names. Manually entered names are included in the Recent Files list.

So, you're skipping the convenience of the built-in incrementation feature, which inadvertantly compensates for the crappy implementation of Recent Files.

Honestly I'm so confident in my modeling skills that 99 percent of my modeling projects I just hit "s". :) If I feel there is something in the model that I may want/need to go back to I just copy it and paste it into another layer and keep moving along. My most recent project was a large archvis corporate lobby project where I played it super safe and incrementally revisioned the lobby model manually. But that type of work is unusual for me as my bread and butter is new product development in the furniture industry and I almost never incrementally save a thing. Been doing it for 15 years and can't recall a single time where it's burnt me. -Crosses fingers - :)

jeric_synergy
04-29-2015, 01:42 AM
Fabulous. Move along then and let us who use it discuss this misfeature.

lardbros
04-29-2015, 11:17 AM
I know the last thing you want to hear is someone else who doesn't use the incremental save feature, but I just turn on autobackup every 5 minutes and if all goes tits up, I have a revision of every scene and object file, dating back to when I first began! Just thought that might suit some too?

erikals
04-29-2015, 02:53 PM
...99 percent of my modeling projects I just hit "s"
yep, me too, but i can see how others like the incremental save.


And it's sucky because it forces you to use the standard OPEN because you can't assume that the last version saved will be in the Recent Files list. Total misfeature IMO, it actually takes away from LW's functionality.
yep, should be fixed / fogbugz'ed...

prometheus
04-29-2015, 03:59 PM
Misunderstanding.

Manually named saves are included in "Recent" file. Auto-named saves from the Shift-S function are not.

Well..that is weird..I can either as mentioned..save through the menu increasement save, and it will show up in the recent list....And I can use shift+S and it will show up in the recent list too.
so all that works perfectly here on lw 11.6.3 win 64

jeric_synergy
04-29-2015, 06:50 PM
yep, should be fixed / fogbugz'ed...
Done YEARS (literally) ago.

- - - Updated - - -


I know the last thing you want to hear is someone else who doesn't use the incremental save feature, but I just turn on autobackup every 5 minutes and if all goes tits up, I have a revision of every scene and object file, dating back to when I first began! Just thought that might suit some too?
It's probably a good idea no matter what, although I have no idea where autosaves go-- I assume I could find out, possibly even in the dox. ;)

Snosrap
04-29-2015, 10:05 PM
Fabulous. Move along then and let us who use it discuss this misfeature. Hey I have no problem with this being addressed by NT. It should work as you would expect it to. That and about 100 other little niggles. :)

lardbros
05-28-2015, 12:19 PM
Done YEARS (literally) ago.

- - - Updated - - -


It's probably a good idea no matter what, although I have no idea where autosaves go-- I assume I could find out, possibly even in the dox. ;)

Autosaves by default go into your Project folder, the currently set one. So, always set your content directory, and your autosaves will be in there.

I tend to bypass this, by setting my own folder location on my C:\ drive, and this way if my network goes down at work, I don't lose my objects.

jeric_synergy
05-30-2015, 05:57 PM
Autosaves by default go into your Project folder, the currently set one. So, always set your content directory, and your autosaves will be in there.
You mean "Content Directory"? 'Project folder' is ambiguous-- not trying to be nitpicky here, just precise.

lardbros
05-31-2015, 02:45 AM
Yep... Too used to 3dsmax terminology, I meant content directory!