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Paul Goodrich
03-24-2015, 02:26 PM
Open letter on 3D software:
I am a hobbyist who uses Lightwave mostly for my own projects and I don't use it all the time. Also I'm on a Mac for what that's worth. However I find myself annoyed and frustrated by the software. These issues are not Mac only of Lightwave only. This is not to diss Lightwave as I find a lot of the same problems in other 3D software as well. I've played around in Maya, Blender and others and have found the same issues. Now when I first started with 3D software it was Lightwave 5.5 and it was buggy as all get out and learning it was a bear as you didn't know if it was you or the software causing the problems. I put this down to perhaps 3D software being not quite ready for prime time yet. I work in many programs and have for a long time. I started in After Effects when it was still COSA After Effects before Abode bought it. I beta tested many programs as well. Including Pro Tools and other audio and video editing and mixing software. I found a lot of the same problems in these programs in the early days. Features not working, buggy behavior, lots of crashes, etc. As time went on though the programs got better and tended to start to work as they should. This does not seem to be the case with 3D software. When I was talking a class in Maya the teacher would often have to tell us: "Oh, that's a bug. Restart the program or here's the workaround." So this is not limited to Lightwave. Simple functions seem to be way more difficult than they should be and there is no conformity between programs or even sometimes in the same program. There's also a lot of intuitiveness in how to work with other programs. If I'm in After Effects, Premiere, Final Cut, Pro Tools, Reason or other media based programs there's similar way of working or it's much easier to get things done than in any of the 3D programs I've used. Now some might say that it's because 3D is SO complicated. I'm sorry I've mixed feature films with hundreds of tracks and plug ins and HD video and multiple computers tied together and have never had the kind of problems you run into with 3D software. What started this rant was that I was following Rebel Hill's animation tutorials and he went to copy and paste keyframes in the graph editor. I can't do that. No matter what I tried right mouse, control, right mouse control command, other ways. I t simply does NOT work. Now I can't understand how a computer program can't use the copy/paste function that's usable in EVERY OTHER PROGRAM KNOWN TO MAN! Rant off. Sorry for the long post but this is something that's been annoying me for ages. Thanks and any thoughts?

shrox
03-24-2015, 02:41 PM
It's just going to be that way from now on, we are the testers. AI will have such errors too, and that could be very bad.

raymondtrace
03-24-2015, 03:20 PM
http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-44037.html
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?20219-Graph-Editor
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?13569-What-happened-to-copy-paste-keys

I understand frustration with highly technical software. But the irrelevant title and extraneous content in the original post are unlikely to help other Mac users with copy/paste issues. Fortunately, others with the same problem have already posted solutions in the links above. Focused topics are easy for search engines to index and for solution seekers to find.


...some might say that it's because 3D is SO complicated.

No. Everyone says that it's because 3D is so complicated.

Mr. Wilde
03-24-2015, 03:25 PM
3D programs are weird. It already starts with the most basic ingedrient: coordinate systems. Left-handed, right-handed, Y-up, Z-up, +Z Front, -Z Front. X-Y-Z Rotation, Heading-Pitch-Bank Rotation. Standard unit conversions to 1cm in this app, and to 1m in that app. I've seen a gazillion different opinions on what a Wavefront OBJ file has to look like and how it's going to be exported/imported. For crying out loud, why? Even between apps of the same company there are conversion problems. Mostly because they had been developed by other companies and then bought, but then they were not properly standadized and integrated.
Every 3D program has so much historically grown baggage, it seems. At some point it should be easier to start over from scratch than trying to fix a messy chaos that's been grown over the years.

Taking a look at all major 3D apps, picking all the best parts and creating a new 3D app from scratch would be quite an effort.

I have also given up on trying to customize the 3d apps I'm working with. It's not possible to, for example, create the same keyboard shortcut layout for LightWave, Maya and blender.

gerry_g
03-24-2015, 03:27 PM
I'm on a Mac running LW 2015 under Mavericks, don't do much animation but here goes – General rule of thumb, there is a copy an paste command that is native to the OS and uses the OS's clipboard to store the last copied item, this is where you use C then V, however there is often a copy paste scenario where the program is storing the info locally in which case the programs copy and paste functions have to be selected, to copy keys from one channel to another select the range of keys you want to copy by control click dragging over the range of keys then in the channel bin command click the same channel and from the drop down select copy, then again in the channel bin swap to the channel you want to paste them to and again command click on the channel and from the dropdown select paste. This is a very common and uniform approach to copy and paste and have encountered it in many other programs, word of warning, I use a tablet so modifier keys and mouse button may differ for you.

wrote control for command, shows how often I look at my keyboard :/

roboman
03-24-2015, 09:17 PM
Niche software markets seem that way. Manufacturing software has lots of the same sorts of problems. CAM software rushes out a new ver with new stuff and never gets around to correcting the problems that are still there from the last release. Several of the CNC's I use have bugs that are more then 20 years old, but 'every one' knows about them and the work arounds. Running a cnc edm is like beta testing and running a wire edm is like alpha testing the software. Then when you get into the controlers on the production floor..... :)

I was shocked how much better PC lightwave 5.5 was then the older Amiga ver I had. Had to do some work on a job I did in 7 and realized how much better 11 is. So things do get better, just not quite as fast as they do with main stream software.

sukardi
03-24-2015, 09:23 PM
Check out the interface of this $160k software, :)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXI6-3DzJAI

Snosrap
03-24-2015, 09:56 PM
I can't figure out how to use iTunes! So I don't. :)

Paul Goodrich
03-25-2015, 10:03 AM
http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-44037.html
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?20219-Graph-Editor
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?13569-What-happened-to-copy-paste-keys

I understand frustration with highly technical software. But the irrelevant title and extraneous content in the original post are unlikely to help other Mac users with copy/paste issues. Fortunately, others with the same problem have already posted solutions in the links above. Focused topics are easy for search engines to index and for solution seekers to find.



No. Everyone says that it's because 3D is so complicated.

I did a search for solutions for my copy/paste problem before I posted. Folloewing your links (Thank you btw) hereís what happened.

1. Here's how you do it:

Open the Light Properties panel for your particular lens flare light. Check Lens Flare, Click on Lens Flare Options. Click 'E' to get into the Envelope. This also opens the Graph Editor where you can do all the copy/paste type things you need to do.

If you create a bunch of keyframes for the flare-ups and downs and need to copy and paste them later in the timeline: Right-Click and drag a box across all of the keyframes. Hold Ctrl-Shift Left mouse button and select Add to Key Bin. Give it a name if you want. Now place the cursor in the timeline where you want the group of keyframes to begin again. Then, Ctrl-Shift, Left mouse button, and select Insert from Bin - select the name you just made. The whole group of keyframes is inserted right at that point in the timeline. You do need to make sure the cursor is over the spline in the Graph Editor and not just in the blank area or it will not come up with the same options in the menu.

This is a very quick method for copying and pasting groups of keyframes, and they can also be applied to other channels as well.

Doesnít work. Insert from bin is greyed out.


2. You can now use copy/paste (ctrl-c/ctrl-v) time slice for copying a slice of the time line. Alternatively, you can multiselect the keys you want to copy, and ctrl-RMB drag them, and they'll make new keys where you drop them....


(ctrl-c/ctrl-v
kind of sort of works for one key. But not for multiples


3. 02-15-2003, 02:23 PM
k i got it.....the problem was that the 6.5 manual says hold down the control key with the RMB and click and drag. However I am on a MAC so of course that doesn't work, that just simply means either move the exisiting points or delete points.

But by just playing around with keys I figured out that you just hold down Command, control, click and drag and it works.
Doesnít work.

Iím on Lightwave 11.6 and Mac OSX10.10.1

Also Photoshop, Nuke, ProTools, CAD and other programs are not complicated? I guess my issue seems to be that each program in 3D seem to try and re-invent the wheel. Thanks for listening and I still can't copy paste in the graph editor. Any Mac users out there have the same problem or is it my system?

Paul Goodrich
03-25-2015, 10:17 AM
3. 02-15-2003, 02:23 PM
k i got it.....the problem was that the 6.5 manual says hold down the control key with the RMB and click and drag. However I am on a MAC so of course that doesn't work, that just simply means either move the exisiting points or delete points.

But by just playing around with keys I figured out that you just hold down Command, control, click and drag and it works.
Doesn’t work. What it does however is shows my where it's supposed to go with greyed out keys but when I let go of the Command control right mouse nothing happens. So it looks like it's going to work but then (of course) it doesn't.

RebelHill
03-25-2015, 10:22 AM
Ah... with 2015... you can just drag release... With earlier versions of LW, when you drag, you have to "drop" on the actual curve, not in "empty space".

raymondtrace
03-25-2015, 01:07 PM
...Iím on Lightwave 11.6 and Mac OSX10.10.1

Also Photoshop, Nuke, ProTools, CAD and other programs are not complicated? I guess my issue seems to be that each program in 3D seem to try and re-invent the wheel. Thanks for listening and I still can't copy paste in the graph editor. Any Mac users out there have the same problem or is it my system?

Thank you for explaining what version of software and OS you are using.

I'm not saying other programs are not complicated. You were saying 3D programs are complicated. I was agreeing with you.

You see intuitiveness in other programs because they are based in reality. Photoshop uses brushes and masking, similar to real world counterparts. ProTools stacks linear tracks, just like the tracks on a reel of magnetic tape. Its AAX/VST plugins often look like stage gear.

There is very little that is analogous between the real world and 3D design/animation software. That is why 3D is so complex.

Surrealist.
03-26-2015, 09:08 AM
I don't know about that. There is plenty. It would be a fun project to research further but a lot of the terminology from Modeling actually comes from real-world art department counterpart. And the workflow even. Wireframe relates to a real world wireframe you'd build up under a sculpt etc.

Lighting, Rigging all have counterparts. Rigging with Stop Motion. Texturing and Painting in 3D all have real world counterparts and even similar workflows. Sculpting of course has a very direct relation back to the real world. Even modeling machine parts using the Lathe tool. That is from the real world. And the list goes on.

The reason it is easier to understand things like Audio and Editing is because in the real world these are equally 2 dimensional in comparison to other crafts. Probably the best all around counterpart to what we do is in stop motion. And you take an editor or sound editor and toss him in a stop motion shop. He will be as equally out of place with the mirad of complexities that have to go into the shot that for him exists as a 2 dimensional piece of film.

To me it is all the same. In 3D we are just dealing with the entire studio. And intuitiveness I think is about equal to audio or editing. I did audio engineering for 8 years before even coming to 3D and also I have a quite a bit of experience editing with real film as well as digital editing. So that is my take on it. Before any of this I was very active in school with sculpting drawing and photography in the real world so, I don't know for me it has always made sense. But it did take a long time to make 3D modeling through a computer feel as fluid and hands on as in the real world sculpting for organic shapes. And that I attribute to having to rework my muscle memory to working on a 2D screen and manipulating the mesh though different controls than the hands on I'd get with clay.

So that is the main difference. In the real world we are dealing with 2D to 2D with some crafts like audio and editing and with 3D it is going 3D (real world construction and lighting) to 2D on our screen.

spherical
03-26-2015, 01:44 PM
What Richard said....

Our studio works in both types of 3D. Virtual and Real. Real 3D is way more difficult in the aspect of the fact that it has to actually WORK in a gravity field; not be a fake that looks like it does. Objects cannot be in the same place at the same time. In Real 3D, the tactile feedback is more intuitive in that you are working in the same number of dimensions as you build something. There is a direct and immediate connection to the real physical objects and their relationships.

In Virtual 3D, the 2D/3D disconnect that Richard cites is as close as you get. The 3D aspect of it is in your head, as far as understanding the virtual physical relationships of things. You are looking at an interactive "movie" of the objects that don't really exist or have to obey the laws of physics. Yes, we can apply virtual gravity and collisions, etc., but it's still an approximation at best. Objects can intersect. They do not have to be attached to a support to keep from crashing to the floor. They can be impossibly small or huge. Physics of any type does not have to be followed if we so choose.

Where the difficulty enters the picture, as far as how the applications we use deal with this translation from virtual to real, is that essentially you can't get there from here. Tech advances like 3D Connexion devices, 3rd Powers Tools and MeshFusion make it closer, but still the objects are unable to actually be touched; only seen and appear as if they can be. The steady approach of Virtual 3D to becoming Real 3D is a parabolic curve. It will never actually get there; unless, of course, we come to the realization that what we think of as Real is actually Virtual and then the wall between the two immediately falls down. The interfaces that we must work through to bridge this gap will always be convoluted, because the task required is so complex. IOW, this is our best effort; deal with it as best you can while it slowly improves over time.

raymondtrace
03-26-2015, 02:41 PM
While these comments are all correct, my comment about the complexity of 3D is simply based on the fact that we look at a 2D screen to do things in 3D. That is why we and software engineers have to deal with nonstandard techniques and controls to live in that 3D world.

I think that is what everyone is saying, with the same verbosity that Paul used to complain about copy/paste techniques. :)

Mr_Q
03-26-2015, 02:45 PM
Maybe ditch 3D for now and take some writing classes? The lack of paragraphs is giving me a headache.

Hey-OOoooooo!

Surrealist.
03-26-2015, 03:15 PM
While these comments are all correct, my comment about the complexity of 3D is simply based on the fact that we look at a 2D screen to do things in 3D. That is why we and software engineers have to deal with nonstandard techniques and controls to live in that 3D world.

I think that is what everyone is saying, with the same verbosity that Paul used to complain about copy/paste techniques. :)

Yeah I agree. After my long post I kinda came to the conclusion we were saying the same things another way. But yeah. It is complex 100 fold but also that 2D/3D thing we are citing as a huge block. It simply does not exist in the transition from film editing or even painting which is usually much easier. But translating a 3D world into a computer will always be intrinsically different.

gerry_g
03-26-2015, 03:23 PM
Oh come on, if seeing things in 3D in shaded mode in OGL is a struggle how on earth would you have coped when it was all displayed in wireframe only, I remember modelling like that, and as to the paradox of working in 3D in a 2D space I regularly drew in 3D on paper doing concept, as many people still do and manage just fine, and thats on paper not in Photoshop or Painter with the aid of a 3D perspective grid, either you can see in 3D or you can't. Have seen many artist block out concept in a 3D program and take it into Photoshop as the basis for their sketch because 3D programs are easier to do this sort of preliminary work in than 2D programs, I would contend that 3D programs are pretty easy to use with the caveat that you have got to learn them first and that is really what this argument is all about.

Surrealist.
03-26-2015, 05:14 PM
Yep, learn them. And work with them until they are second nature. Thankfully there are a lot of tools we did not have in the olden days of wire frame to make that so much easier to accomplish. But it still takes a lot of work. No argument there.

raymondtrace
03-27-2015, 08:44 AM
...as to the paradox of working in 3D in a 2D space I regularly drew in 3D on paper doing concept, as many people still do and manage just fine...

Right. You didn't have to engineer/program a 2D control or interface to manipulate your 3D concept. You cannot use a more intuitive tool than a pencil or a blob of clay. That is the struggle with 3D software. That is why we use different mouse/pen/key controls in different programs to zoom/pan/rotate. That is why we also have different rendering options, using their own complex methods to render shadows and global illumination... and sometimes crashing because of some quirky geometry or other random setting we used that does not agree with some calculation.

That is why Paul was frustrated with his 3D experience. His frustration is entirely reasonable. But it is a frustration that most of us got over long ago because we wanted to get something done.


...that is really what this argument is all about...

Actually, this was all about Paul having trouble with copy/paste. He shot himself in the foot by ranting about cabbages and kings. Paul probably resolved his issue and we're still kicking around the OT turd he left. :)

lardbros
03-27-2015, 09:27 AM
I can't figure out how to use iTunes! So I don't. :)

Ha... that's the same as me... I hate iTunes, it baffles me!

Anyway... as far as 3d software goes. Yep, it's complicated, and yep, it's buggy... but ALL software is buggy.
So much so, that I've got through a HUGE project, doing a 10 minute animation, and all has gone well... UNTIL today, the delivery day, when I'm trying to output to a movie file. After Effects is crashing EVERY single time!!!!
I'm having to export it in sections... what a joke!

I understand your pain... but all software is buggy, not just the 3d stuff. All applications are complicated, but 3d are probably some of the most complex applications you can use. The most 'kick-in-the-face' bugs I've had hit me is when using Photoshop or Illustrator. No backups, no autosaves! ARRRGH!