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Surrealist.
03-23-2015, 01:27 PM
Support For LW coming soon maybe? But for those who have compatible options...

http://renderman.pixar.com/view/get-renderman

hazmat777
03-23-2015, 02:45 PM
Great news !

Now if I can win the lottery I could update my Maya 2008 and LW 9.6 to possibly get this to work. :(

bobakabob
03-23-2015, 04:34 PM
All these renderers! I use LW and Maya 2014 together and *much* prefer Lightwave's renderer over Mentalray and the native app. The former is highly sophisticated but IMHO isn't as fast or intuitive setting up lights and cameras for composition. It will be interesting to try Renderman out but it will take a lot to move away from LW's superb nodal surfacing, lighting and VPR, essential for a fast workflow.

Surrealist.
03-23-2015, 04:47 PM
Yeah I know what you mean. Something new. I am actually quite exited to give it a try. Looking forward to testing some hair and fur. Don't like how that looks in LW or Mental Ray. 3Dlight uses Renderman technology and I also did well with hair and fur. So this should be interesting.

jwiede
03-23-2015, 05:02 PM
3Dlight uses Renderman technology and I also did well with hair and fur.

Just a slight correction: 3Dlight is a alternate implementation of the Renderman language and associated rendering engine, but doesn't really rely on Renderman tech internally (other than as an alternative implementation of the engine). Think of RML as a standard, with 3Dlight, prman, pixie (IIRC), etc. as separate, distinct implementations of that standard.

A big reason NC prman (Pixar's) is a big deal is because Pixar's widely recognized as having the most {current, accurate, efficient, scalable, stable} implementation of RML available -- unsurprising considering they created the language, etc.

C4D has support for rendering with RML-compliant engines for ages now, but 3Dlight was always less than stable for me (and I couldn't justify buying a commercial prman license), so I'm looking forward to trying prman, as I hear it works MUCH better with C4D.

Netvudu
03-23-2015, 05:47 PM
I appreciate they want to save the render from oblivion, but IMHO, too little too late.

bobakabob
03-24-2015, 01:52 AM
I appreciate they want to save the render from oblivion, but IMHO, too little too late.

Could you elaborate, Netvudu? Not sure what you mean.

Interesting to see Lightwave listed on the Renderman site as 'potential' along with Modo and Max.

Surrealist.
03-24-2015, 05:23 AM
I don't care where it sits in the grand scheme of things and how many other render platforms hve had some of the things Renderman is getting now. But they have also with this release added some new technology, the feature set looks very good. I have not been happy with other 3P render solutions both in supported features as well as price. And this is why I forced myself to use Mental Ray as it supports more Maya features natively where others simply did not. I liked 3Delight. But again, some bugs, missing some features. I am just happy to get my hands on this technology. Arnold is out of the question for me, so I am going to see what Renderman can do for me. And I am jazzed about having it free to play with as long as I need to to sort that out. I am very slow and methodical at these kinds of things. Cheers to Pixar too little too late or not.

Surrealist.
03-24-2015, 10:10 AM
Just a slight correction: 3Dlight is a alternate implementation of the Renderman language and associated rendering engine, but doesn't really rely on Renderman tech internally (other than as an alternative implementation of the engine). Think of RML as a standard, with 3Dlight, prman, pixie (IIRC), etc. as separate, distinct implementations of that standard.

A big reason NC prman (Pixar's) is a big deal is because Pixar's widely recognized as having the most {current, accurate, efficient, scalable, stable} implementation of RML available -- unsurprising considering they created the language, etc.

C4D has support for rendering with RML-compliant engines for ages now, but 3Dlight was always less than stable for me (and I couldn't justify buying a commercial prman license), so I'm looking forward to trying prman, as I hear it works MUCH better with C4D.

Thanks for the additional data. Something I have not really dug into that much on the technical side. About all I know is what they say on the website and a few other places around the docs. Always good to get more info. :)

robertoortiz
03-24-2015, 11:31 AM
What is cool is that they are teasing future LW support

http://rendermansite.pixar.com/view/non-commercial-renderman

toddd240
03-24-2015, 12:16 PM
Looks like it can be used without Maya through command line

https://community.renderman.pixar.com/article/293/using-renderman-without-maya.html

rcallicotte
03-24-2015, 12:37 PM
This could be good news! Not that I hate the LW render engine. But, still...


What is cool is that they are teasing future LW support

http://rendermansite.pixar.com/view/non-commercial-renderman

jasonwestmas
03-25-2015, 08:18 AM
This could be good news! Not that I hate the LW render engine. But, still...

Yes, there is a time and place for most things. Looking forward to giving it a go, especially seeing what RM can do with the geometric fibers it has and rendering many polygons.

bobakabob
03-25-2015, 11:41 AM
Looking forward to trying it out. The only downer will be using RM with Maya's surfacing and texturing which is just awful compared to Lightwave's. Unless Renderman offers an alternative solution?

Netvudu
03-25-2015, 11:53 AM
Could you elaborate, Netvudu? Not sure what you mean.

Interesting to see Lightwave listed on the Renderman site as 'potential' along with Modo and Max.

Ok, let me elaborate a bit more.

Renderman was based on REYES, but now not anymore. So the completely ditched the REYES algorithm and implemented RIS. With the following consequences:

1) All the work being done so far with Renderman does NOT work anymore. Any shaders already done by production houses do NOT work anymore. So itīs just like a brand new render engine with no background or assets at your disposal nor any know-how on how to solve problems...and boy, does it have problems.

2) Regarding brute force Renderman is currently behind...well...most others. Arnold, Mantra, Maxwel, and the like.

So you got something with not background, which isnīt at the top of the game either, AAAAAND, the final touch was ditching RSL!! So now all the work done by the companies is worthless.

Thatīs why I donīt like the whole Renderman thing. Of course, free is good.

Surrealist.
03-25-2015, 12:13 PM
Renderman 19 uses both REYES and RIS. So it also still supports RSL.

http://renderman.pixar.com/resources/current/RenderMan/shadingLanguage.html

So you can choose to move ahead with RIS or still work in REYES. At least one new feature I am aware of is still only available using REYES.

They moved on with new technology yes. But they have not completely left any of the other stuff behind. It is still a choice. And there are some situations where REYES is still better. So I don't see them ditching it any time soon.

jasonwestmas
03-25-2015, 12:15 PM
Ok, let me elaborate a bit more.

Renderman was based on REYES, but now not anymore. So the completely ditched the REYES algorithm and implemented RIS. With the following consequences:

1) All the work being done so far with Renderman does NOT work anymore. Any shaders already done by production houses do NOT work anymore. So itīs just like a brand new render engine with no background or assets at your disposal nor any know-how on how to solve problems...and boy, does it have problems.

2) Regarding brute force Renderman is currently behind...well...most others. Arnold, Mantra, Maxwel, and the like.

So you got something with not background, which isnīt at the top of the game either, AAAAAND, the final touch was ditching RSL!! So now all the work done by the companies is worthless.

Thatīs why I donīt like the whole Renderman thing. Of course, free is good.

What do you mean exactly they Ditched Reyes? It doesn't sound like they abandoned it, RM is a hybrid renderer now supporting RIS and REYES depending on your needs.

"With the advent of the RIS framework, RenderMan is capable of amazing ray tracing feats, but note that the original REYES architecture is still available, right in the same software, for those times when the efficiencies of the REYES are a clear win. These different approaches to rendering CGI provide a large toolbox, providing the right tool for the job. "

http://renderman.pixar.com/view/p-renderman

http://renderman.pixar.com/view/26265

bobakabob
03-25-2015, 12:21 PM
Hmmm, points taken. You would think a company like Pixar would avoid releasing a substandard product. They're associated with quality and being Rtist friendly. So are they playing the game of grabbing market share through their brandname and by giving RM away for free - followed by charging $$ once the competition has been trounced?

Although Maya + RM is an attractive proposition I won't be leaving LW's dependable and beautiful renderer anytime soon.

Surrealist.
03-25-2015, 01:25 PM
Pixar has not done anything to release anything sub standard at all. They are moving ahead with new technology. It is not that the end result is new for some of the features in terms of what Renderman offers now compared to what other render engines have had. It is that you are getting that now in Renderman which has a host of other benefits. I would encourage people to explore what it can do. And look into the docs, see all of the features. As great as LW is as a render solution. It would really help to have Renderman for LightWave. A lot of artists would benefit in my opinion.

Netvudu
03-25-2015, 06:14 PM
I didnīt mean theyīre not putting REYES into the pack, but if you go the RIS way, then itīs like that all the way, which is logical, but all the REYES workflow is then useless, meaning all the historical reasons for Renderman wonīt be available. And you do want to go the brute force path because the other is so cumbersome by today standards.
And they have indeed ditched RSL for RIS, which does mean bye bye to all the work so far, which was a stupid move.
Just check Mantra. They added PBR besides Micrpolygon, but they didnīt ditch VEX. They simply incorporated the new concepts to the shading language.
If ditching the RSL shading language doesnīt sound to you like abandoning REYES, I donīt know what it sounds like...again, it was about time. They should have done this three or four years ago, which is why I started with "too little, too late".

Again, free is a very competitive price. I concur.

If money wasnīt an issue, then Arnold is a far superior product. Renderman is indeed outdated compared to it. Then again, Arnold is far from free.
At 199$ for a Houdini Indie license, Mantra is the most flexible of the three by far. Admittedly the memory management isnīt as good as Arnold, but it does have other benefits.

PS: if you are curious, at the following thread there is an interesting discussion and testing of different engines with the same scene. Admittedly, itīs by Houdini users so Mantra is supported for the final conclusions, but it does offer some light and itīs interesting to read and check, specially because at some point a lot of different render engines are tested (Renderman, Arnold, Clarisse, Red Shift,...)

http://forums.odforce.net/topic/22080-suppress-small-artefact-in-pbr-render/

vonpietro
03-25-2015, 06:51 PM
Is newtek going to implement it now that its free?

jasonwestmas
03-25-2015, 07:04 PM
Is newtek going to implement it now that its free?

No they won't. . .Juanjgon is going to possibly but I doubt his plugin "adaptation" will be free. Renderman studio itself is only free for non-commercial.

Surrealist.
04-14-2015, 04:49 PM
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=8021793#post8021793


Quote:
Originally Posted by SebKaine
That's great to have a PRman engineer posting here Philippe ! I would be curious to know if the research that were done on Hyperion could be cross with your research at Pixar, and if this sorting ray strategies could be a potential direction for you ?


thanks !
We already sort hits and will look further into ray sorting. Ray sorting can really help but it Is not too compatible with interactive rendering and this is something we Want more of.

Quote:
I would also be curious to know if you have a project to unify the workflow beetween Reyes and RIS ? With mantra you can do your shading with VEX (or visual counterpart VOP). So you have your lookdev done, you have write your VEX code etc ... then you can switch beetween Reyes / Raytrace / PBR in a transparent way.


Easier said than done. VEX is good but rather limited. In fact it has the same limitations as RSL and will increasingly become a bottleneck in Mantra. RIS works a bit like OSL but in a SIMD fashion. We switched to C++ for performance, not to annoy our customers. You can still port a lot of your RSL code to OSL to reuse it in RIS.

Quote:
I find counter productive to have written tons of RSL stuff and have to put those in the trash for using RIS. I find that finding ways to merge both universe would :
- allow to simplify the number of nodes and shaders
- clean the workflow


That was not an option. RIS is different because no one wants a crippled slow path tracer.

Quote:
In the maya pluggin by separating the 2 world you ended up with 2 set of shaders. Everybody has his own theorie of making the best shading workflow. But having basic atomic BSDF that you pack together is the most flexible imo. you have start this but i still feel that thing are messy compare to maxwell for ex.


We wish we could get rid of the legacy stuff, but a lot of people are still relying on it.

Quote:
I also think that keeping shading palette out of Maya would be the best strategies. Either you use max / maya / houdini / blender you have a kicking *** nodal shading workflow that give you access to elementary BSDF that can be combine together and a huge list of presets of precombine stuff. Maxwell is still the best exemple for this ! But Maxwell lack flexibility for movie workflow , and this is were prman shine.


These things are easy to do in Mel/Python and are usually written by TDs. We could do that too but no one has asked for it so far.

Quote:
I still feel that choosing to choose to favor hypershade instead of slim is holding us far from what make prman so powerfull => RIB/RSL. you should be able to use prman as easy as maxwell but you also should be able to call in a shading tree any rsl function directly. the RAT workflow is dead and i find houdini far closer than what i love in RAT than RFM. But as many people look to love RFM here , i might be the problem but to me RFM is a regression compare to RAT!


Maya 2016 should help with the new hypershade. When it comes to shading graph, we are trying to provide all the tools you need out of the box.
Personally I wasn't a fan of RAT and spent quite a bit of time improving LiquidMaya. SLIM is a code generator : our shaders are now pre-compiled. We don't need SLIM in RIS. Why write another hypershade if Maya provides one ?

Quote:
If you give us the elegant simplicity of maxwell + the flexibility of the old reyes workflow in a clean agnostic tool that we can control with the same shading language, i would be glad to go back to my roots !


If you like Maxwell, stay in Maxwell. It is a nice renderer and it is increasingly production friendly. We have our own vision and it is not RfM as you can see it today or Maxwell or Vray or Arnold. It will take a few more years to get there...

Cheers

Philippe

TIMMYLYNN
10-05-2015, 05:16 PM
hey guys,
someone already made a free plugin for it with blender. i've used it and really like it. i've only messed around with it a bit but i'd really like to see it available in LW although i feel it should be free like the renderer but i know if a third party develops it they need $$$. i don't know how long the plugin will stay active in blender. i don't think alot of blender people are adopting it. they like cycles. i think blenderman has alot more capabilities but if the plugin isn't kept up to date i'll be stuck in current version which i may opt to do if they don't make it work in current versions. i still would like to see in in lightwave. i would think someone that works for newtek could make a quick plug for it and offer it to the community??? just a wish...

fablefox
10-06-2015, 01:16 AM
hey guys,
someone already made a free plugin for it with blender. i've used it and really like it. i've only messed around with it a bit but i'd really like to see it available in LW although i feel it should be free like the renderer but i know if a third party develops it they need $$$. i don't know how long the plugin will stay active in blender. i don't think alot of blender people are adopting it. they like cycles. i think blenderman has alot more capabilities but if the plugin isn't kept up to date i'll be stuck in current version which i may opt to do if they don't make it work in current versions. i still would like to see in in lightwave. i would think someone that works for newtek could make a quick plug for it and offer it to the community??? just a wish...

That someone is Pixar. Granted, they take another plug-in and fork it (but that is the cool thing about open source). But what important is that its official, which is a very great news. Once the plug-in goes 1.0, I wonder what is the acceptance of Blender in animation studios...

Surrealist.
10-06-2015, 03:31 AM
It will be the same I think - well basically - until Blender starts getting some basic overhead bottle neck features like instancing. But probably you are correct. I think it will do a lot for Blender. Also Blender is starting to implement open subdiv... cool stuff.

allabulle
10-06-2015, 05:58 AM
I've tried it with Blender and it was pretty good. Albeit not extensibly, true, I found it fast, easy to set-up and the interactive view responsive. Deforming motion blur was nice and the de-noiser seemed to do a decent job. By no means did I stress the renderer and I didn't check every possible option, but the scene wasn't simple either, just not the killer scene with millions of polygons. I didn't check how or if it could handle fire or smoke or fibres or hair. Still it was fast, surprisingly clean (I expected it to be noisier), and easy to use and understand materials and general settings.

Has anyone else tried Renderman/RIS here? If the new LW renderer is similar or better we'll have fun for sure.

50one
10-06-2015, 07:01 AM
I've tried it with Blender and it was pretty good. Albeit not extensibly, true, I found it fast, easy to set-up and the interactive view responsive. Deforming motion blur was nice and the de-noiser seemed to do a decent job. By no means did I stress the renderer and I didn't check every possible option, but the scene wasn't simple either, just not the killer scene with millions of polygons. I didn't check how or if it could handle fire or smoke or fibres or hair. Still it was fast, surprisingly clean (I expected it to be noisier), and easy to use and understand materials and general settings.

Has anyone else tried Renderman/RIS here? If the new LW renderer is similar or better we'll have fun for sure.

The only thing I'm afraid of (when it comes to the new PBR engine) - is the case of any new renderer features/stability, I just hope it will be battle tested out of the box with modern features available, or is just going to be xpanded version of VPR? in that case there shouldn't be a a problem.

jasonwestmas
10-06-2015, 07:34 AM
The only thing I'm afraid of (when it comes to the new PBR engine) - is the case of any new renderer features/stability, I just hope it will be battle tested out of the box with modern features available, or is just going to be xpanded version of VPR? in that case there shouldn't be a a problem.

It would make sense (to me) that a lot of the work that has already gone into PBR shaders have been simplified from those of the past, making development easier. I'm pretty sure that VPR can handle any form of shader that Anttij writes for it.

allabulle
10-06-2015, 07:37 AM
Well, Rob said that VPR is now the same engine as the final one. So in theory yes.

bobakabob
10-06-2015, 02:11 PM
I've been learning Renderman on and off with Maya with simple non realistic CA models imported from LW. Reyes is very immediate and feels similar to LW in that you can get decent results very quickly. It works with FBX files exported from LW no problem and is compatible with Maya shaders.

As Reyes is considered legacy it makes more sense to focus on RIS in the long term. So far unfortunately I've drawn a blank with a LW -> Maya workflow but I'm sure I'm doing something ridiculously wrong. There must be a huge gaping hole in my knowledge as all I can produce so far are renders where everything turns out beige! Ris doesn't seem to reference the Maya shaders based on the FBX character file. It looks like I'll need to resurface the character with Ris shaders. Hopefully someone can point me in the right direction. No problems surfacing from scratch in Maya but I'd like to model in LW and import with readable texture maps without too much extra work.

Very exciting to see LW won't be left behind and will be introducing new technology. Personally I love LW's whole approach to rendering and shading (a dream compared to Maya's hyper shade workflow) and keep coming back time and again from Mental Ray. But LW3DG must surely keep the legacy renderer as it's still more than capable of producing great results especially in a crisis.

Surrealist.
10-06-2015, 02:54 PM
I have been having success with RIS. I kind of went the opposite direction just leaving REYES alone for now and concentrating on the new tech. I think the main problem you are having is with shaders as you mentioned. You will have to definitely set up RIS shaders to get rendering properly.

I am just loving he pxrDinsey shader as an all around Swiss army knife shader. And ironically even though I learned how to use Mental Ray and can work with it, Renderman RIS with pxrDinsney is the first time I have ever felt like something clicked, or was as easy to set up as shaders in LightWave.

As for showcase I will wait to update my WIP thread in sig with a slew of objects I made in LW that I will render in Renderman. I don't want to post anything else here now. But if you go to my facebook page and my vimeo page you will find a recent video with some Renderman stuff in it.

I am happy to talk about it.

But one thing I can recommend is the Sterling automobile series of tutorials over on their site. Then the manual covers the pxrDisney shader in detail.

And as a general tip guide I can provide this:

Just for basic test rendering I leave the Samples at the default setting. And then just reduce the max number down to something like 128, 64, or 32. For the video I did I was renderdering in HD and got fairly decent results stopping he render somewhere between 64 and 128.

For Lighting I set up the environment light with an .exr hdri environment image.

This is just a great starting point for basic test renders to show off models I think.

As for the RIS pxrDisney I can recommend this workflow:

First set up your model with some presets. For example metal plastic or clay.

Then observe the grey scale values for roughness, metalness, spec etc.

Then go back to your maps, and make adjustments to them. For example when I export maps from dDo I will have glossiness, roughness, spec etc. I will first look to see which map has the best mean values for my material properties. Then if I don't have one, either adjust the export settings in dDo (there is a Disney setting) and/or simply take the map into PS and adjust the image overall luminance to match the effect I want.

So in effect I will plug in a map to that parameter and if it stops looking like the material I want then I figure the maps luminance values are wrong. And I do this one by one with each parameter.

Soon after doing this you will already know what you need your maps to look like and the process starts to go faster.

The layered shaders are real powerful but also more complex to set up. I am really like the physically plausible approach of the pxrDinsey material. It is simple and easy to understand. And I think it looks great out of the box so to speak without much tweaking if you start from presets.

Hope this helps :)

Surrealist.
10-06-2015, 05:10 PM
I actually I came to realize I have two objects modeled in LightWave I rendered with Renderman.

130183

130184

And they make up this Logo:

130185

BG objects were actually modeled and rendered in LightWave and the whole thing of course comped in PS.

It is a WIP.

bobakabob
10-08-2015, 03:43 PM
Many thanks for the advice here, Richard. I need to spend more time and follow through with your suggestions. Over the last couple of years I've been working on LW <-> Maya CA workflows and am relieved at how well the two apps work pretty seamlessly together with FBX and geocaching. Surfacing FBX LW Modeler imports in RIS has been a stumbling block so far so I'm grateful for any help in figuring out Renderman. I'm also doing some CA work in Maya which will end up being rendered in LW, so very excited about the new LC3DG developments (although vpr and the present 2015 renderer is imho the best ever).

Btw, for animation in Maya, I'm using Advanced Skeleton and in LW a combination of RHiggit and Genoma. CA biped animation in both apps is a real pleasure with these rigs. I'd be interested to know how you approach CA workflows using LW and Maya.

Surrealist.
10-08-2015, 04:19 PM
You're quite welcome. Happy to share any tips that will help.

I don't do that much Animating in LightWave unless I am asked to by a client. Which does not happen too often. But I have a current job that I am doing in LW and I find the RH rig to be great.

There were two main reasons I turned eventually to Maya for character animation. The first was an excellent mocap workflow in conjunction with MotionBuilder where I usually prefer to animate mixing mocap with hand animation. Rigging in Maya then is fairly simple. Just the base deform bones compatible with MoBu using the HIK rig. Going back and forth between Maya and Mobu is then fairly straight forward. The second reason is the nDynamics system for hair and cloth. I like working with those quite a lot compated to even Syflex on ICE which was wonderful. But Maya just has more character-centric controls built in to cloth and hair.

It is this main reason I have turned to Renderman for rendering to get better hair and basically a simpler workflow all around compared to MR.

On the LightWave side the main thing keeping me from rendering there is I think just having a good solution for not just hair but also for rendering Maya fluids and so on.

Mostly I like keeping the pipeline simple. But the new rendering coming in 2016 and other features are very intriguing. Looking forward to a full reveal.