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Tony3d
03-03-2015, 09:10 AM
Hi All, why is it when I save an image in Lightwave as a 32bit Photoshop image, it comes into Photoshop with a white background? Yet, in Pixelmatr it's on a transparent background. How can I save this way for Photoshop? If I save as a tiff 32 It does come in with a transparent background, but if you look close, there is always a bit of a white outline showing around the image. any way to avoid that?

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 09:36 AM
Hi All, why is it when I save an image in Lightwave as a 32bit Photoshop image, it comes into Photoshop with a white background? Yet, in Pixelmatr it's on a transparent background. How can I save this way for Photoshop? If I save as a tiff 32 It does come in with a transparent background, but if you look close, there is always a bit of a white outline showing around the image. any way to avoid that?

What format are you saving the image as PSD, PNG Tiff?

Jason

Tony3d
03-03-2015, 09:50 AM
PSD 32 Bit. You can see the border here. Also is there any way to render all objects in separate layers?

gerry_g
03-03-2015, 09:51 AM
it only came in which a white background because your original had no background, had you of had a background/background image or colour what have you then you would have got that, the alpha channel is there you just have to activate it, has always been thus

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 10:42 AM
PSD 32 Bit. You can see the border here. Also is there any way to render all objects in separate layers?

Yeah I use png 32bit they work great!! Is there any reason why you are using 32bit psd? If you use 32bit psd you will have to go into the channel tab and activate the alpha channel (alpha1) to delete the background and you
are right saving it off as 32bit tif leaves a 1 pixel white edge around your object.

For all these reason this is why I use 32bit png, no alpha channel selecting and no white pixel border around the object just a nice clean image on a transparent background

Hope this helps
Jason

Tony3d
03-03-2015, 10:57 AM
Thanks. I'll try that.

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 11:09 AM
Thanks. I'll try that.

Also if you have a bunch of images rendered already as 32bit psd you could bring them into AE as sequence and use a simple matte choker to get rid of the white edge around your image. As for the
white stroke/edge around your object maybe you should flag this with LW3DG to see if this is a bug saving it as a 32bit TIF file or just a limitation with 32bit TIF files in general

Jason

MSherak
03-03-2015, 11:44 AM
Hi All, why is it when I save an image in Lightwave as a 32bit Photoshop image, it comes into Photoshop with a white background? Yet, in Pixelmatr it's on a transparent background. How can I save this way for Photoshop? If I save as a tiff 32 It does come in with a transparent background, but if you look close, there is always a bit of a white outline showing around the image. any way to avoid that?


PSD 32 Bit. You can see the border here. Also is there any way to render all objects in separate layers?


Photoshop is adding the white background when it's loading the image since those pixels are blank. Easy way to fix this is to change your Alpha Format settings in Lightwave from Unmultiply Alpha to Premultiply Alpha. Unmultiply does not save the background at all in the image and this is why PS fills it with white. Unmultiply is only good for image formats that use transparency as the alpha like PNG.

-M

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 12:32 PM
Photoshop is adding the white background when it's loading the image since those pixels are blank. Easy way to fix this is to change your Alpha Format settings in Lightwave from Unmultiply Alpha to Premultiply Alpha. Unmultiply does not save the background at all in the image and this is why PS fills it with white. Unmultiply is only good for image formats that use transparency as the alpha like PNG.

-M

I just tried rendering out a 32Bit psd with premultiply and unmultiply and they still don't have a transparent background in Photoshop. The only format I can get to have a transparent background in photoshop is PNG, Tif yes but it has the
white edge when rendered with premultiply and jagged edges when rendered as unmultiply.

Thanks
Jason

JoePoe
03-03-2015, 12:32 PM
Photoshop is adding the white background when it's loading the image since those pixels are blank. Easy way to fix this is to change your Alpha Format settings in Lightwave from Unmultiply Alpha to Premultiply Alpha. Unmultiply does not save the background at all in the image and this is why PS fills it with white. Unmultiply is only good for image formats that use transparency as the alpha like PNG.

-M

FWIW I get a small border no matter what format I'm using tiff png psd... using premultiply.
You can use those if you remove the appropriate (white or black) matte in Pshop.

But if you don't want it in the first place....yeah... Premultiply vs. Unpremultiply.

Maybe I'm a little confused but I think it's opposite to what MSherak is saying.
I believe that premultiply is trying to blend the object with the background color/image you have in LW.
Unpremultiply ignores the background altogether and gives you a "fringeless" Alpha.

In Pshop: Blue background added in photo app.
(Edit: and I'm pretty zoomed in on these. That's why the jaggies. At actual size.... super smooth.)

Unpremultiply 127252

Premultiply 127253

Premultiply with a green background in LW 127254

Edit 2: Also FWIW, at the moment I'm using Affinity Photo (a Pshop analog... and very promising contender :thumbsup:). All of these formats are coming in with a transparent background!

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 02:47 PM
Here is what I come up with. 32Bit PSD has a background no matter which I use unpremultiply or premultiply


127255

127256

127257

127258

Thanks
Jason

JoePoe
03-03-2015, 04:04 PM
Here is what I come up with. 32Bit PSD has a background no matter which I use unpremultiply or premultiply

Thanks
Jason

Interesting.

So...
1) Unpremultiply looks like the way to go for sure.
2) So when you save as PSD the alpha is still fine though... right? I mean that's how you're putting in the blue background, yes?
I'm guessing that's because Pshop is actually trying to be smart. A long while ago TIFF was the go to format for print... IIRC. It's assuming a blank white page as background.
3) Since you only had a jaggies issue with the TIFF, I gave it a shot... (LW render is with white background). Same res as your post and saved as jpg out of photo editor as you did. Just guessed at sphere divisions... SubD at a nothing crazy 24 by 12.

What were your render samples settings? Then I can really do a head to head :).

127262

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 04:20 PM
Interesting.

So...
1) Unpremultiply looks like the way to go for sure.
2) So when you save as PSD the alpha is still fine though... right? I mean that's how you're putting in the blue background, yes?
I'm guessing that's because Pshop is actually trying to be smart. A long while ago TIFF was the go to format for print... IIRC. It's assuming a blank white page as background.
3) Since you only had a jaggies issue with the TIFF, I gave it a shot... (LW render is with white background). Same res as your post and saved as jpg as you did. Just guessed at sphere divisions... SubD at a nothing crazy 24 by 12.

127262

Yeah it looks that way, best results for sure.

No these are all rendered as PNG or TIF, PSD comes in with background then I have to select the Alpha Channel and make a new background and fill it in with a color. That's why I prefer the PNG route
yeah maybe, but it's still strange when .psd have usually a transparent background funny that it's not coming in that way. But from the sounds of it comes in with transparency with other photo programs.

Oh okay, I had black as my background color, and I had a sphere with 40 by 40 with smoothing on. My render was 1920x1080 HD but I just cropped it so it wasn't so big to post on the forum.
It might be the black background causing the jagged issue. I'll have to try It with a white background instead.

Thanks
Jason

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 04:40 PM
Interesting.

So...
1) Unpremultiply looks like the way to go for sure.
2) So when you save as PSD the alpha is still fine though... right? I mean that's how you're putting in the blue background, yes?
I'm guessing that's because Pshop is actually trying to be smart. A long while ago TIFF was the go to format for print... IIRC. It's assuming a blank white page as background.
3) Since you only had a jaggies issue with the TIFF, I gave it a shot... (LW render is with white background). Same res as your post and saved as jpg out of photo editor as you did. Just guessed at sphere divisions... SubD at a nothing crazy 24 by 12.

What were your render samples settings? Then I can really do a head to head :).

127262

Hi JoePoe

Can you send me your scene that gives you these results saving off as a 32bit tif file.

Thanks.
Jason

JoePoe
03-03-2015, 05:43 PM
Yeah.... that's what I meant about making the selection from the channel itself.
That might account for a little more of a white edge, but the jaggies only on the Tiff is still weird.


Hi JoePoe

Can you send me your scene that gives you these results saving off as a 32bit tif file.

Thanks.
Jason

Uh.... lol.... that was so many renders ago I really can't be sure what my samples were. But I'll pack up something for ya.

While I do that... a quick question. Are your shadow/light samples "high" and Adaptive Sampling off? That would cause the jaggies.

BUT... the real question is... You seem to be getting slightly different results from simply picking different output from the same render. Original jaggies (or not) are irrelevant I guess. I can see different formats doing different things.... different algorithms and all, but still.... annoying.

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 06:02 PM
Yeah.... that's what I meant about making the selection from the channel itself.
That might account for a little more of a white edge, but the jaggies only on the Tiff is still weird.



Uh.... lol.... that was so many renders ago I really can't be sure what my samples were. But I'll pack up something for ya.

While I do that... a quick question. Are your shadow/light samples "high" and Adaptive Sampling off? That would cause the jaggies.

BUT... the real question is... You seem to be getting slightly different results from simply picking different output from the same render. Original jaggies (or not) are irrelevant I guess. I can see different formats doing different things.... different algorithms and all, but still.... annoying.

yeah that's what I thought lol. oh okay thanks, I look forward to testing it

I had my shadow and light samples both set to 8 and I had adaptive sampling on. I even tried it with soft filter too but still jaggies.

Yeah I know it is annoying. That's why I've stuck with PNG all these years which give great results everytime

MSherak
03-03-2015, 06:08 PM
Yeah I know it is annoying. That's why I've stuck with PNG all these years which give great results everytime

Only thing I use now is .EXR. 32 bit floating point with alpha and multiple layers.

JoePoe
03-03-2015, 06:33 PM
Okay, the good news is.... here are the files.

The bad news is, I believe I did those examples at the last save of the scene... which was at nothing special default settings.
Lighting/Shadows=1, Min Samples=1, Max=9, AS=.01. Maybe the render #s were doubled, but certainly not the AS.... or light/shadow.

More bad news.
I also just tried with a smoothed only 40/40 sphere like you (I included it in the zip... swap it out if you want) at default settings and the Tiff was even smoother than my original.

127263

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 06:59 PM
Okay, the good news is.... here are the files.

The bad news is, I believe I did those examples at the last save of the scene... which was at nothing special default settings.
Lighting/Shadows=1, Min Samples=1, Max=9, AS=.01. Maybe the render #s were doubled, but certainly not the AS.... or light/shadow.

More bad news.
I also just tried with a smoothed only 40/40 sphere like you (I included it in the zip... swap it out if you want) at default settings and the Tiff was even smoother than my original.

127263

Hi JoePoe

Thanks for the file.

Are you telling me that your Lighting/Sampling were only on 1 that can't be, that's impossible because your shadowing around the ball wouldn't be so smooth and un pixelated. If so something is wrong here because I just rendered out your scene and I'm not getting anything close to the samples you posted earlier. What version of lightwave are you using? I'm using 2015.2 also are you on a mac or pc?

Here is what I get right out of your scene with the setting you had. As you can see the shadowing is quite pixelated

127264

Here is what I get right out of your scene with the only changes of 8 for shadow/light samples. As you can see here the ball is jagged at the top and you can see some white pixels around the edge

127265

I have no idea why you are getting such different results

Thanks,
Jason

JoePoe
03-03-2015, 07:20 PM
Absolutely only at 1. But that stuff can be smoothed out with higher min max settings, which is probably the case here. 2/18 maybe like I said. Hell maybe 3/26.... I was all over the place.

Still doesn't account for jaggies though.
When you say "right out of your scene" you mean rendering unpremultiplied, saving as tiff 32, opening in Pshop, adding a layer, enabling the selection through channels, and filling with blue right?

Tony3d
03-03-2015, 07:22 PM
When I use the Unpremultiply Alpha, I get a ton of Jaggies plus it still has the background. I'm running on a Mac with 10.10.2

JoePoe
03-03-2015, 07:28 PM
Tony is that a LW render or Pshop? Unpremultiply is going to give you a messed up looking render in LW.... gotta save and see what it's like in Pshop.

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 07:30 PM
Absolutely only at 1. But that stuff can be smoothed out with higher min max settings, which is probably the case here. 2/18 maybe like I said. Hell maybe 3/26.... I was all over the place.

Still doesn't account for jaggies though.
When you say "right out of your scene" you mean rendering unpremultiplied, saving as tiff 32, opening in Pshop, adding a layer, enabling the selection through channels, and filling with blue right?

Yeah mine keeps giving jaggies even at 2/18 and 3/36 min/max sampling.

I save as a 32bit tif not 32bitfp tif
I open it up in Photoshop CC 2014
It comes in on a transparent layer
I add a new layer
move the new layer under the ball layer
Fill with blue

I don't have any alpha through my channels, just RGB, Red, Green and Blue layers 4 layers not 5

Do you have an alpha in your channels tab

UPDATE:

Just rendered the same scene but changed the output alpha to premultiply instead of unpremultiply and all the jaggies are gone, exact same results you have now. So something is odd here are you on Mac or PC

Unpremultiply jagged with white edges
premultiply no jaggies or white edges

Thanks
Jason

lertola2
03-03-2015, 07:39 PM
Photoshop has the commands Remove White Matte and Remove Black Matte at the bottom of the Layer menu that gets rid of the fringe of white or black background.

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 07:44 PM
Photoshop has the commands Remove White Matte and Remove Black Matte at the bottom of the Layer menu that gets rid of the fringe of white or black background.

Where is that at? I don't see that option. Can you paste a screen grab of where to find it

UPDATE:

Oh never mind I found it. Actuall the get rid of white or black didn't work very well but the defringe setting of 1pixel worked perfectly!!

Although like I said before using 32Bit PNG or possibly .exr's stops you from having to do all this stuff. Comes I perfectly no defringing necessary.

Thanks
Jason

Tony3d
03-03-2015, 07:44 PM
Tony is that a LW render or Pshop? Unpremultiply is going to give you a messed up looking render in LW.... gotta save and see what it's like in Pshop.

The rendering was opened in Photoshop elements, but it does the same thing in Pixelmator.

JoePoe
03-03-2015, 07:48 PM
@ lertola2... yeah I mentioned that awhile back. I think we're just trying to figure out why that's even necessary with tiff only.

@jboudreau...yeah the 2/18 and 3/36 isn't going to impact that. That's more of an AS thing (or, God forbid, rendering big and resampling down).
But... A HA! It does come in on a transparent layer! I thought it wasn't. I'll do a side by side comparison.

@Tony.... can you post the "pure" saved LW tiff (or whatever format with alpha) before bringing it in any other program?

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 07:49 PM
The rendering was opened in Photoshop elements, but it does the same thing in Pixelmator.

Did you try rendering it at PNG or Settting your background color to black in the backround options and rendering it out at 32bit tif with premultiply alpha?

Thanks
Jason

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 07:53 PM
@ lertola2... yeah I mentioned that awhile back. I think we're just trying to figure out why that's even necessary with tiff only.

@jboudreau...yeah the 2/18 and 3/36 isn't going to impact that. That's more of an AS thing (or, God forbid, rendering big and resampling down).
But... A HA! It does come in on a transparent layer! I thought it wasn't. I'll do a side by side comparison.

@Tony.... can you post the "pure" saved LW tiff before bringing it in any other program?


Yes I don't ever remember saying it didn't. When I said it didn't open on a transparent layer it was when I was saving it out as a .PSD file. 32Bit Tif and 32Bit PNG always opened on a transparent layer. I was just having issues with jagginess on the 32Bit TIF files or having white fringe etc.

The jagginess is now fixed but I have to use premultiply alpha not unpremultipy alpha like you are using not sure why

Thanks,
Jason

Tony3d
03-03-2015, 07:54 PM
I'll have to post the pure image tomorrow. PNG's seem to work very well with the premultiply setting.

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 07:56 PM
I'll have to post the pure image tomorrow. PNG's seem to work very well with the premultiply setting.

Yeah that's what I always use, PNG's Premultiply works everytime. :) Glad to see that those settings are working for you.

JoePoe
03-03-2015, 08:05 PM
Yes I don't ever remember saying it didn't. When I said it didn't open on a transparent layer it was when I was saving it out as a .PSD file. 32Bit Tif and 32Bit PNG always opened on a transparent layer. I was just having issues with jagginess on the 32Bit TIF files or having white fringe etc.

The jagginess is now fixed but I have to use premultiply alpha not unpremultipy alpha like you are using not sure why

Thanks,
Jason

Ah, okay that was psd, got it.

Here's a straight up side by side. Your render of my scene done in Pshop on left and my render of my scene done in Affinity on right ... exactly the same steps.
Conclusion. I think Affinity might just be better :hey:.

127267

jboudreau
03-03-2015, 08:39 PM
Ah, okay that was psd, got it.

Here's a straight up side by side. Your render of my scene done in Pshop on left and my render of my scene done in Affinity on right ... exactly the same steps.
Conclusion. I think Affinity might just be better :hey:.

127267

Cool, I think so too. It looks like Affinity might defringe the layer automatically because if you defringe the one on the left by 1 pixel it's pretty much the same. Still think PNG premultiply Alpha is the way to go

Thanks
Jason