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Surrealist.
03-02-2015, 10:40 AM
nuff said. Thought it was a spam email. Had to check and yep:

https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?60635-Unreal-Engine-Now-Available-to-Everyone-for-Free

It's real.

jasonwestmas
03-02-2015, 11:15 AM
haha, crazy good! Looks like they get 5% from what you earn from your content after $3,000 in revenue.

Greenlaw
03-02-2015, 11:23 AM
Wow, good find. Not sure what I would do with it (or where to find time to work with it,) but that's intriguing.

G.

Surrealist.
03-02-2015, 11:39 AM
Have a look at these renders:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DG51glKipU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO0k92iVMjE

A few years ago people starting talking about game engines as potential pipelines for rendering.

Between CryEngine and Unreal. It is getting very close. And for some projects, more than enough and real or near real time. Something I just happened to be looking into lately.

And even clothing while not all the way there yet, still very impressive for a real time solution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqiBWaHegAo

glebe digital
03-02-2015, 11:57 AM
Jaw just being picked up from floor.....I'm in, so time to bone-up and get cracking!

mummyman
03-02-2015, 11:58 AM
Have a look at these renders:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DG51glKipU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO0k92iVMjE

A few years ago people starting talking about game engines as potential pipelines for rendering.

Between CryEngine and Unreal. It is getting very close. And for some projects, more than enough and real or near real time. Something I just happened to be looking into lately.

And even clothing while not all the way there yet, still very impressive for a real time solution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqiBWaHegAo

That jungle scene is pretty amazing. Still, a lot of renders I see are more architectural flythroughs. Love the more organic, "alive" things. I'm sure they are trying to eventually push SubSurface Scattering better as well. It's only a matter of time before realtime becomes the norm. Thanks for sharing!

gerry_g
03-02-2015, 12:02 PM
looks like it is not just animation but rendering too that is sliding into the uncanny valley, neither stylised nor real, a hamburger instead of a meal

glebe digital
03-02-2015, 12:48 PM
And yet even the hamburger has its place . . . ;)

Iain
03-02-2015, 01:30 PM
I take it you've seen this series...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg-aGO8Wvx8

Fascinating.

erikals
03-02-2015, 01:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg-aGO8Wvx8

that is Fascinating indeed... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

hm, something for Stasys to consider ?
https://www.facebook.com/stasysseries

Iain
03-02-2015, 01:51 PM
This kind of scene once took 24 hours to render a frame.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeeGxW1qeEc

VonBon
03-02-2015, 02:07 PM
Now can we get a custom exporter to Unreal, LW3DG?

erikals
03-02-2015, 04:07 PM
This kind of scene once took 24 hours to render a frame.......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeeGxW1qeEc

so what are your thoughts, will you be using this?

wesleycorgi
03-02-2015, 05:01 PM
I've been a subscriber for the past year, so a bit bummed that I paid out during that time. But I still found it more reasonable than the Unity pricing model.

Now, I guess I don't have to worry. Weird how two pieces of software that I put some investment into are now free(ish): Unreal Engine and Fusion. Whose next?

Greenlaw
03-02-2015, 06:13 PM
I know what you mean. I'm a long time Fusion user (since version 3) but now there's a free version that has most of the capabilities that I spent thousands of dollars for. Even worse, there is no discounted upgrade path to the full version for long time users who let their subscriptions lapse a couple of years ago.

I'm over that now though--buying a brand new license of the full version of Fusion is actually cheaper than it would have cost me to re-new under the old subscription plan, plus the extra render nodes that I had to buy separately are now included free. I haven't upgraded to Fusion 7 Studio yet but planning to do so shortly. :)

G.

wesleycorgi
03-02-2015, 06:21 PM
I'm over that now though--buying a brand new license of the full version of Fusion is actually cheaper than it would have cost me to re-new under the old subscription plan, plus the extra render nodes that I had to buy separately are now included free. I haven't upgraded to Fusion 7 Studio yet but planning to do so shortly. :)

G.
Yes, Fusion is much more affordable than before. At the time, I was able to convince my boss to make the initial purchase, but not the yearly maintenance.

I will consider buying into Fusion Studio when they release the Mac version — want to make sure they keep developing it!

Surrealist.
03-02-2015, 07:45 PM
Apparently the game is on...

It is about to get interesting:

http://www.develop-online.net/news/autodesk-to-debut-stingray-game-engine-at-gdc-2015/0203783

lightscape
03-02-2015, 08:06 PM
Now can we get a custom exporter to Unreal, LW3DG?

And Substance support from LW3DG

vonpietro
03-02-2015, 09:58 PM
i've used fusion on at least 3 movies so far.
It's been really great - except for tracking. I think they really need to upgrade their tracking ability.
it is totally awesome that its free.
=)


I hope they gain market share with their freebie plan.

Iain
03-03-2015, 01:39 AM
so what are your thoughts, will you be using this?

I think it's inevitable that we will all end up using something like this.
I never seem to have time to investigate these things properly but this is very attractive.

Surrealist.
03-03-2015, 02:18 AM
I agree. It is the future. Of course the bar will always be raised. But I think gone are the days when a basic render has to take in the hours or even minutes per frame to get good reflections, normal details and a basic AO or GI. These PBR mats are real time showing all details. Puts something like a progressive render to shame. Real time feedback for artists is where it is at. And at the moment this technology is being driven by a the multi-billion game and game hardware industry. I think it is nearing or surpassing 100 billion by now (from some projections I have read) which is why you are seeing all kinds of companies jockeying for a strong position. And when you also have Open Source Software eating up a good portion of that market, it is trickling down quite obviously not only to game engines which have gone from high prices to subscription and now Unreal for free, it is affecting Content Creation tools as well.

Love the title that floats into frame at the beginning of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_siu5R7wIbk

From my view says it all.

Where does LightWave fit in all of this...? I honestly don't know. But if they are getting a pulse and can make a mirror fog up, it should be obvious where this industry is going. So I would expect some drastic changes around here with licensing and hopefully tools.

LightWave and Modo are no longer indie tools. They are middle ground - old school 3D professional apps. Modo answered with Modo on steam. Maya with Maya LT and rentals, Houdini Indie, Cinema 4D LT bundled with AE...

LightWave has done absolutely nothing - yet. They have managed to keep the price under 1K which is good. But that is no longer a maverick indie price. That is a hefty chunk of change still today. I just don't think companies can continue to turn their nose to this. Very few have. Most if not all companies right now have answered. What will LW3DG do?

Danner
03-03-2015, 04:43 AM
Those real time walkthroughs are better than older rendered images but rendertime is just part of the equation, to get to that level of real time realism takes more time than to set up a realistic traditionally rendered scene.

Surrealist.
03-03-2015, 04:56 AM
I would say it is not that significant of a difference once you learn how to do it once. (been just learning Lighting in Unreal recently) And even if it takes you 20X the time, the pay off is exponential. Not to mention advantage of getting real time feedback on materials and lights.

I think Autodesk has it right:


A New Era in Design Animation

Many of our manufacturing, architecture, building, and construction customers are also excited about game engine technology– but not because they are making games. Instead, they are looking for new ways to visualize and interact with design data with the same level of control and feedback of modern console or PC games. With the acquisition of Bitsquid, Autodesk will begin exploring the creation of a new interactive design exploration platform, integrated with our design tools, which will help designers contextualize their ideas.

http://www.autodesk.com/campaigns/bitsquid

Danner
03-04-2015, 08:29 AM
Don't get me wrong, I do beleive it's the future, but we are not there yet, I still rather have my machine working than me working.

tcoursey
03-04-2015, 08:49 AM
The biggest thing I've ran into is UV's. My typical workflow is from the old days using the layered materials and simple mapping, cubic planar etc... What should I be looking at (tools or plugins) to help get my UV experience in LW better so that I can move to Unreal engine for some projects (replacements for our Panoramas) UV'ing in LW just seems old and cumbersome...but maybe it's me. THanks for any thoughts.

Danner
03-04-2015, 09:00 AM
Lightwave's UV tools are somewhat limited and have their own workflow quirks but they are capable once you know the workflow and compliment them with the fantastic PLG UV plugins.

Iain
03-04-2015, 09:42 AM
Those real time walkthroughs are better than older rendered images but rendertime is just part of the equation, to get to that level of real time realism takes more time than to set up a realistic traditionally rendered scene.

I agree but animation is the one thing I can't compete with larger firms at. Especially nowadays when everyone seems to think they need hi-res movies. I could set up a render farm but I have no room or desire to expand. Something like this is the obvious answer but I know we're not quite there yet.

Surrealist.
03-04-2015, 09:48 AM
Don't get me wrong, I do beleive it's the future, but we are not there yet, I still rather have my machine working than me working.

Sure but also when you add it up, come to think of it, you are actually doing more work in a 3D app than you'd have to do in a real time engine. You have to consider your time setting up materials, getting lighting to look the way you want, which no matter what you do takes tweaking. And the difference here is real or near real time as opposed to tweaking and waiting. This eats up time setting up for animation renders. Even for stills.

Additionally if you have to make it work for real time game play, you are tweaking for performance. And you need that work on the front end so that the user has a real time experience. So for that there would be more tweaking and baking.

But for renders you are not restricted in the same way. And the lights in Undreal work completely differently than they do in a 3D app like LightWave. They are already built for this kind of lighting and they work much better (in this environment) with less tweaking. At least from my limited experience. They just have the feel that you can get a lot of nice stuff very easily.

Also when you use Matinee to create a cinematic you are not restricted to what your system can do in real time. It is a non issue. But the difference between doing this in a 3D app is on the order of frames per second not even seconds or minutes per frame. I have projects I have done recently where this would have cut my delivery time into really a very small fraction of time.
I think you are correct it is not here for a lot of projects yet. But for many projects it is already here. I mean it is already happening. People are doing it.

Greenlaw
03-04-2015, 11:21 AM
I agree but animation is the one thing I can't compete with larger firms at. Especially nowadays when everyone seems to think they need hi-res movies. I could set up a render farm but I have no room or desire to expand. Something like this is the obvious answer but I know we're not quite there yet.
I know what you mean. When Alisa and I made 'Happy Box' (https://vimeo.com/55185005), we decided to render on two's. We thought it might make the movie look more 'stop-motion-y' (it didn't) but really we were just trying to keep our render times reasonable. We tried to keep the characters and environment fairly simple but it still took several days to render this short.

To keep this 'on-topic', we had originally intended to render 'Happy Box' in a game engine or with iClone for real time results. In the end I changed my mind about the 'machinima' look. For all the work we were doing, I wanted the film to look nicer, so Lightwave it was.

Surprisingly, we're getting much better render times with our current project 'B2' (https://vimeo.com/68543424) which is technically far more complicated than 'Happy Box' was. This is partly because we got better hardware after making 'Happy Box', but also because of the many improvements in lighting, fur, dynamics and instancing during the Lightwave 11 cycle. Curious to see what Lightwave 2015 will bring to this project. (And hopefully we'll be finished with this before LW 2016.) :)

G.

Greenlaw
03-04-2015, 11:32 AM
I'm still very interested in realtime rendering though. The whole reason I got into homebrew mocap was to help us knock out animated shorts on a monthy, or maybe even a weekly frequency. But of course mocap was only one factor in achieving this goal and we're still a far way from achieving our goal.

Realtime rendering will certainly get us closer. :)

G.

Danner
03-04-2015, 11:38 AM
I can only speak from my experienceI have tested Lumion and I work with Unity everyday and it takes time to set things up properly, there are also gotchas like flickers and noises or artifacts that are a real puzzle to get rid of sometimes, and getting things to look nearly as good as in native LW is always a challenge, (but I have "lived" in lightwave for way too many years). I agree with you that there is a place for this today, I'm in talks with a client for a huge resort developement project that I think we'll do in Lumion because it will need to have a lot of animated people, water, trees, daylight changes etc.. things that are really easy to add in Lumion compared to traditional 3d packages. Unreal is worthy of exploring.. I need more hours to my day.

Surrealist.
03-04-2015, 11:41 AM
Yeah there are a lot of things I would not consider putting to a game engine render for sure. But also a lot of it has to do with your planning. I think there is currently a lot of preconception about what a game engine render would look like, what with all of the cut scene stuff we see and just in general what a relatively new concept it is. And also there are preconceptions about how to get a look on a film.

Here is a film where the look was achieved primarily with hand painted textures:


https://vimeo.com/118471437

http://www.cgsociety.org/index.php/CGSFeatures/CGSFeatureSpecial/the_journey_of_a_3d_animated_short_le_gouffre

Rather than trying to figure out some wild way to use a post process or some kind of tricky shaders, they simply painted the textures and composited them quite differently. No skin sss. No hair etc. either.

This was done in Softimage and I imagine rendered with Mental Ray. Something like this would be a prime candidate for a game engine render.

I am not sure some of the lack of acceptance of this is because of technology. I just think it is primarily uncharted ground.

There are some very limited technical aspects for sure. But a lot of projects would benefit in fact rather than being degraded.

Surrealist.
03-04-2015, 11:44 AM
I can only speak from my experienceI have tested Lumion and I work with Unity everyday and it takes time to set things up properly, there are also gotchas like flickers and noises or artifacts that are a real puzzle to get rid of sometimes, and getting things to look nearly as good as in native LW is always a challenge, (but I have "lived" in lightwave for way too many years). I agree with you that there is a place for this today, I'm in talks with a client for a huge resort developement project that I think we'll do in Lumion because it will need to have a lot of animated people, water, trees, daylight changes etc.. things that are really easy to add in Lumion compared to traditional 3d packages. Unreal is worthy of exploring.. I need more hours to my day.

Yeah exactly. I think we are on the same page. :)

wesleycorgi
03-04-2015, 03:43 PM
With both fully capable Unity and Unreal (Unreality?) free versions available now, this is exciting times to for real time visualization.

vonpietro
03-04-2015, 07:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMzoryySJps

so again - this is just amazing work.

when they get to the dining area - well - since it's a game engine - i dont know if you can do this with these game engines -
but could you

in slow mo - shoot up all the dining models and have them fly everywhere from explosions from your rocket launcher?

aside from that bit of visual

I am blown away by how in REAL TIME the amount of geometry being displayed. - Games in the future are really going to be amazing, but i think they need to be more interactive.

Its the difference between just looking - and playing with the scene.

Thats why i think skyrim is such an amazing game (lots of stuff to interact with)
and i hope to see more games like that.


surrealist - thanks for the video - I thought the hand painted look was just amazingly well realized.

By the way, i have no experience with getting a lightwave scene into either one of these bad boy game engines.

what is the work flow like? From lightwave to unity or unreal? Which one is more friendly to lightwave or (blender for that matter)

Surrealist.
03-04-2015, 08:22 PM
I don't think it matters. But others might have more info. If you export FBX from LightWave you should be fine. However if you are using a Rigify Rig in Blender there are some known issues. I have not sorted it yet. But also going from Blender to Unreal you want to scale it up 100%. And since Blender and LightWave have a 1 to 1 scale ratio it would be the same. If you import a 1Meter by 1 meter box from LightWave or Blender into Unreal it will become 1 CM in Unreal so it will be very small. That is he one thing I do know. There may be other issues coming out of LightWave. I have never done it so I don't know.

erikals
03-05-2015, 08:06 AM
another nice one from Unreal...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwEuSxAEXPA

jburford
03-05-2015, 12:21 PM
This kind of scene once took 24 hours to render a frame.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeeGxW1qeEc


Would be nice to see, but the Gestapo in Germany is blocking it!


Unfortunately, this video is not available in your country because it could contain music from UMG, for which we could not agree on conditions of use with GEMA.

If only all posters to You Tube would put the Fair Usage Rights Quote on their stuff. . . . .

Mr_Q
03-05-2015, 01:35 PM
MUST be learned for ArchViz. You'll be standing still otherwise.

erikals
03-05-2015, 04:17 PM
Would be nice to see, but the Gestapo in Germany is blocking it!...

this one too ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLYgssrKI-I

vonpietro
03-05-2015, 04:50 PM
So, which one is the more lightwave friendly? unreal or unity?

rcallicotte
03-06-2015, 08:06 PM
If you were a subscriber at the time of this announcement, then you got a $30 credit for the marketplace.


I've been a subscriber for the past year, so a bit bummed that I paid out during that time. But I still found it more reasonable than the Unity pricing model.

Now, I guess I don't have to worry. Weird how two pieces of software that I put some investment into are now free(ish): Unreal Engine and Fusion. Whose next?

jasonwestmas
03-07-2015, 08:23 AM
So, which one is the more lightwave friendly? unreal or unity?

Unreal4 is more friendly across the board. It has more development under its belt. But what do you want to do with a game engine?

Here's the FBX procedure for skeletal animations. https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Content/FBX/Animations/index.html

I imagine Z-Bones are still recommended for this because LW weights its joints differently in the hierarchy than other applications. So as long as LW3DG keeps updating FBX unreal should work fine with Lightwave. For weight mapping I recommend using weightmap only in the bone properties, that way you can be sure your deformations will look exactly the way they do in lightwave.

vonpietro
03-07-2015, 03:00 PM
with so much interest in these game engines- does anyone want to start up a simple "lets make a game" project that every one can work on and learn from? Maybe make a tutorial for the rest of us as the project gets made - maybe a simple maze with some hidden items to find to start. Go from there.
=)

The idea would be to show how to get lightwave assets into the game, and how to animate a character walking around. Maybe some npc's to chat with ect.

Netvudu
03-08-2015, 06:00 AM
Sure. Go for it vonpietro. We will enjoy a lot learning from your tutorial :D:D

vonpietro
03-08-2015, 01:10 PM
maybe =)