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starbase1
02-14-2015, 06:33 AM
Hi All,
Any suggestions on what / how I can my model for errors that might be crashing layout on a render?

I'm on version 11.5

I have plenty of memory, I have already checked for degenerate triangles, 2 point polygons, removed all non planar polygons.

It does not crash every render, (and seems to never crash with VPR which I feel should tell me something...

Any suggestions very gratefully received,
Nick

JoePoe
02-14-2015, 09:19 AM
Instead of randomly firing out suggestions, can you post scene/model?

starbase1
02-14-2015, 12:01 PM
Unfortunately I can't release the model, though I attach a render here...

I just tried deleting a whole load of CFG files as I've had similar issues before from a corrupted config.

I'm wondering if I have any doubled up polygons, though I can't recall a good way to check for this..
Nick

ernpchan
02-14-2015, 12:10 PM
You'd have to run unify to merge doubled up polygons. Don't know of a way to actually check if you have any though.

MSherak
02-14-2015, 02:02 PM
Hi All,
Any suggestions on what / how I can my model for errors that might be crashing layout on a render?

I'm on version 11.5

I have plenty of memory, I have already checked for degenerate triangles, 2 point polygons, removed all non planar polygons.

It does not crash every render, (and seems to never crash with VPR which I feel should tell me something...

Any suggestions very gratefully received,
Nick

Update to 11.6.3 and I bet they will go away.

starbase1
02-14-2015, 02:14 PM
You'd have to run unify to merge doubled up polygons. Don't know of a way to actually check if you have any though.

Ah, unify normals, I thought that just flipped polys, I did not realise it also cleaned up dupes?
I'll have a go, thanks,

Nick

JoePoe
02-14-2015, 03:05 PM
While you try that, think about this....

Get rid of half of your objects. If no crash the offender is in what you deleted. Start with the offending half and halve again... and again.... etc. to isolate the problem mesh (if it is in fact a mesh that's the problem ;)).

starbase1
02-14-2015, 04:17 PM
You'd have to run unify to merge doubled up polygons. Don't know of a way to actually check if you have any though.

Really? I've not had trouble like this with other models, so my git feeling is it;s the model that's the problem somehow, not the software...

spherical
02-15-2015, 02:59 AM
That's what he's saying....

starbase1
02-15-2015, 12:25 PM
Right, I remembered my older PC still had LW 11.0 on it.

I have been rendering on that and no issues, so it seems the model is clean, and I will make the effort to upgrade from 11.5 on the faster PC. (I'm often reluctant to do that unless there's a specif8ic feature I want, it is frequently messy to get all my plugins and whatnot installed and activated again...

Thanks to all those who made suggestions!
Nick

zapper1998
02-16-2015, 09:05 AM
If I start having crashing problems, I look at the configs and usually delete configs and start with a fresh start and reload plugins.

Lately I have done clean install of LW2015, after getting it all set up and where I like it I save the Configs to a "Safe" folder and then if the puter crashes I just delete the Configs and load a copy from the "Safe" folder. So far I have done it once and it worked out great.

Mike

And models have been troublesome sometimes, I had a Model start shutting down modeler after loading, hmmmm, opened it up using my laptop that has LW, and no crash..ing... reloaded the configs, and LW and model loaded fine no crash.. on main workstation..

:)

starbase1
02-18-2015, 12:03 AM
Configs have fixed things for me in the past - but saving a good set of them is definitely a simple good idea, thanks Mike!

Waves of light
02-18-2015, 03:19 AM
My check list is:

1. 1 or 2 point polys
2. Unmerged points
3. Unify Polys

I've had two 'gotcha' scenes over the years...

1) I just happened to have two polys that were exactly the same size and position on separate layers. One was a single poly I was using one for a simple render (textured grass) and on the other layer was a copy of this single poly, duplicated several times and stacked for the grass clipmap trick. I was switching between visibility of the two layers. When I left both on, the render would crash straight away.

And the other I could never figure out, so I copied every layer to a new lwo, saved it and everything was fine.

starbase1
02-18-2015, 10:35 AM
Thanks!

starbase1
02-22-2015, 11:39 PM
Hmmm. This got a bit stranger.

I went to the 11.6 version of LW on my main PC, and still had crashes.
I had a think and went back to 11.0 on my main PC, which works fine with the scenes on my older PC, but that crashes too!

So it seems like there is something about the PC which is driving the crashes.

(And yes, I did try turning it off and on again)

This has me seriously confused now...
Any ideas?

Nick

Waves of light
02-25-2015, 12:41 PM
Nick,

Is this PC a new build? If so, have you stressed tested it. My line of thought is whether or not this is a big scene and it's crashing your memory or CPU at render time. You said it doesn't crash every render, but does it crash every render when you try it with this scene?

Download the marble scene (in the benchmark thread) and see if your PC crashes Layout with that scene (as it's a heavy render scene).

Ricky.

Danner
02-26-2015, 06:25 AM
iI you are running windows 8 go to the performace tab of the task manager and while it's rendering see if "turbo" is ativating or not, Turbo will make your processor go faster than the base ghz, if your ghz are equal or lower than the nominal speed then your machine is overheating. In windows 7 you can use a temperature monitoring utility like RealTemp. If you find that it is overheating it could just mean the thermal paste was not applied correctly.

And speaking of models with problematic geometry, I sometimes get this nonplanars that look like 2 point polygons, and they mess things up too. I just select non planars, hide everything else, and look for ones that are only lines and nuke those.

starbase1
02-27-2015, 12:28 AM
Thanks for the suggestions.

It's windows 7.

I'm pretty sure its not a stress issue, there are plenty of other scenes I have rendered for extended periods with more polys, so I don't think that's it.
Nick

bobakabob
02-27-2015, 12:39 AM
Have you tried downloading the LW 2015 demo? There have been lots of fixes of late which might help. Is the model SubD. If so try freezing it or triangulating. Otherwise chopping a copy of the model up and testing it as Joe Poe has suggested might locate the issue.

Riza
02-27-2015, 01:13 AM
well, I'd try to cut the surface / parts then paste it to new object to isolate polygons then check from there, which one that cause the trouble...once I had same problem, but I forgot what cause it..I simply delete and create new poly

Waves of light
02-27-2015, 01:32 AM
Nick,

I'm happy to sign an NDA if you want to securely upload it somewhere for me to have a look at.

Ricky.

starbase1
03-01-2015, 04:07 AM
Thanks again to all - it's not a subdiv model. I did try removing layers and trying again with different combinations, but I still got crashes. This suggests it is either a hole mess of problems or something else entirely.

Wave of Light, I'm bundling up files now, I'll send you a PM with details very shortly. No need for an NDA, I'm very grateful for your help - and if you can fix it, you are very welcome to use the mesh if you can find a use for it!

Right now it still seems like it doesn't like my faster PC...

In the meantime, here's an animation I managed to grind out on the older PC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTmWlcrRW_E

Nick

Waves of light
03-01-2015, 04:56 AM
Nick,

I will check it out this afternoon mate and see if I can a) render it straight away or b) fix it.

Cheers,
Ricky.

starbase1
03-01-2015, 06:17 AM
Much appreciated, thanks again!

Waves of light
03-01-2015, 07:58 AM
Hi Nick,

Check your PMs buddy. I've 'fixed' and package a new scene. When loading files I have said no to all prompts for textures, shaders and nodes. I rendered out every single lws, with no problems (just f9 renders).

But, to try and look for errors in the model, in modeler I performed the following on the final version of your mars ion rocket:

1. Highlighting each layer
2. merged points
3. unified polygons.
4. Kept running a plugin called NormalCorrector (https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/normal-corrector/) over and over again, until it said the same number of normals had been corrected.
5. Checked for incorrect or flip polys.

This found a lot of geometry occupying the same area and corrected it. I also found one problem area after running the sequence above and that was on the nose of the Lander Rocket (Layer 2), which I rebuilt, just using bridge between the problem areas.

I have PM'd you a test scene, which is based on your ion-earth.lws scene file, but using the 'fixed' mars-ion-rocket-4.lwo file.

Try loading the test scene and rendering out a frame. Let me know what happens.

The only other thing I would suggest is tripling some of your objects before rendering.

Cheers,
Ricky.

starbase1
03-01-2015, 11:56 AM
Thanks Ricky - I believe I tripled everything that was not planar...

I'll give that a go!

Waves of light
03-01-2015, 12:10 PM
Thanks Ricky - I believe I tripled everything that was not planar...

I'll give that a go!

But first, let me know if the PM'd scene worked.

starbase1
03-01-2015, 02:43 PM
Hi Ricky and thanks for your efforts.

The bad news is that it is still crashing. This really makes me wonder if there is something about this PC lightwave does not like. Of a combination of the model and the PC, (more likely as I don't normally have this level of trouble).

I'll have a think.

Thanks again,
Nick

Waves of light
03-01-2015, 03:02 PM
I'd be tempted to clear out all configs, uninstall lightwave, clean your registry. Install LW and try to render it out with a vanilla install.

Man, I hate not being able to get to the bottom of tech problems.

Keep me posted.

starbase1
03-02-2015, 02:05 AM
I'd be tempted to clear out all configs, uninstall lightwave, clean your registry. Install LW and try to render it out with a vanilla install.

Man, I hate not being able to get to the bottom of tech problems.

Keep me posted.

Previously I deleted all configs, and also moved up to lw 11.6 with a clean install...

Waves of light
03-02-2015, 04:08 AM
Ok, Nick... just try this one for me:

Open up the scene I sent you. Open the models in Modeler. Make a default texture, with no image or UV map. Assign that to all polygons (so the whole model(s) have the same texture). Same the modeler file as an incremental save. Back into layout and save that too. Now try a render.

I'm wondering if one of the images is being a bugger and crashing Layout at render time.

starbase1
03-02-2015, 09:22 AM
I'll do that this evening.

I'll also try closing down hub and rebooting...

But it's not the same place every time it crashes, sometimes one frame, sometimes another. About the only pattern that looks statistically significant is that it seems much more likely to crash at the end of a frame. (I also tried setting the auto save to different image formats after I noticed this, but no effect)

Thanks for your continued support.

Nick

JoePoe
03-02-2015, 09:26 AM
.... it seems much more likely to crash at the end of a frame.

Any image processing filters in play?

Waves of light
03-02-2015, 10:02 AM
I'm quickly running out of ideas. If it towards the end of the frame, is it something to do with write access issues. Whenever I install a new version of LW (be it an upgrade or new build) I always run the installation file as administrator (even if you have administrator privileges) And after installation, I also select each exe the hub, modeler and layout and set them to run as administrator.

Other things to look at would be:
a) Anti Virus settings and
b) whether or not you can render you image sequence to another harddrive (or USB stick) just to see if it renders and writes frames to it.

Ricky.

gerry_g
03-02-2015, 11:48 AM
old demo plugins with save disabled or watermarking etc, Turbulence demo being in the plugins folder caused a lot of trouble a year back, suggest removing all third party plugins temporarily, most likely a totally useless suggestion but who knows.

starbase1
03-03-2015, 03:11 AM
No image processing filters.

As for old stuff, like I said I tried it in a clean install of 11.6 which would have had nothing old in there...

I tried replacing all the textures with a plain grey one, still crashing.

Waves of light
03-03-2015, 05:13 AM
Man, I'm feeling your pain... new rig and no show on rendering.

Just to clarify, did you try to render the sequence out to another HD, or USB stick? I'm just wondering if there is something wrong with your initial build. What type of drive is it ssd or hdd? I'm clutching a straws now :(

starbase1
03-03-2015, 10:19 AM
Well, the new rig is not THAT new, a couple of years old. I suppose the good news is that I can at least render reliably on the new one.

I've tried rendering to memory stick and hard disk, (memory stick as I tried shuffling files between PC's).

This still feels very odd. To summarise:

The model renders reliably and cleanly on one PC, in multiple versions of lightwave.
The model crashes about 1 frame in 10 (roughly) in multiple versions of LW on another PC, which includes from a new install of LW 11.6

Which implies the PC is the big factor here.

And yet...

I'm not getting this level of pain with other models and scenes - the occasional crash but rare enough to only be a minor nuisance.
Which rather implies that there's something about the model that's the problem.

I'm tempted to try installing another version of windows, but my SSD is very nearly full, and I have no confidence it will do any good... Seems overkill for 11 model anyway!

Nick

Danner
03-03-2015, 12:01 PM
Are the scenes where the new machine crashes bigger than the scenes it renders fine? That would point to a memory problem that doesn't surface untill you throw something that fills up the memory enough to hit the bad parts. If the older machine uses the same type of ram, you could swap it and test.

Spaceboy64
03-05-2015, 04:33 AM
Something like this just happened to me. On frame 355, Lightwave would crash. Frames 354 and 356 rendered fine. It seemed to be crashing during the second motion blur pass, so I tried setting motion blur to 1 and it rendered fine. I have no idea why that frame would cause a crash.

So, try changing render settings.

starbase1
03-05-2015, 06:25 AM
Danner, it's a 32 Gb memory machine, and nowhere near full.

(I have maxed out memory in the past with a displacement mapped Moon!)

Spaceboy64
03-05-2015, 10:36 PM
I suspect my problem might have been nonplanar polygons. I had set all my background objects to 0 subpatch level. I noticed one or two polygons in my objects were really messed up with subpatch turned off.

starbase1
03-29-2015, 06:51 AM
I think I have worked it out, and I am feeling a bit silly...

A new mesh started doing it, when it had been fine before. I had a think about what was different when it was crashing, and thought maybe what was different was that when doing the final renders, it renders for longer. Which could be a probability thing, but... Maybe the PC was overheating when it ran for a while.

It seemed unlikely as I have 3 case fans in there.

But I decided to take the side off and point a big room fan in there.

Now seems much better, and a monitor program is showing distinctly lower temperatures than the maximum recorded.

There's no space for more cooling fans, so I'm not sure what to do next - maybe I can clock it down a bit, if a 10% reduction stops the problem that would be good, but I have no idea how much I would need to turn it down to get a benefit. The cooler is a Corsair Hydro Series H40 Liquid Cooler, which I think is considered fairly meaty, but I am not sure how to tell if it is working!

Anyhow, thanks to all for your time and suggestions.
Nick