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yoshiii
02-07-2015, 06:48 PM
Hello

I am building a new pc for graphic design, 3D designa and rendering, and video editing.

Is it a good idea to have a 2nd computer for helping with rendering?

I was going to buy a FX8350 system, but many peoples opinions(not just this site) was to go intel. Even spend the extra.

But if it is a good idea to have a 2nd computer for helping with rendering, and the video rendering, than I could do that and buy the FX system and later build the Intel system.

Or I could build a i7 4790K system and later build a i7 5820K system.

I do want at least six real cores, that is one reason why the AMD is in the picture.

The AMD and than the i7 set up would be more affordable.

I am upgrading from a old q6600 system with 4 gigs of ram, a 500 WD Black SATAII hdd and a GTX660.

Could I still use this for anything?

Having a 2nd pc means buying the software twice which means things could get expensive.

What does everyone think?

Sensei
02-07-2015, 06:53 PM
LW render node is free.

yoshiii
02-07-2015, 07:10 PM
LW render node is free.

It is? OH cool.

Exactly how does the node work?

jeric_synergy
02-07-2015, 07:18 PM
Essentially, it sends jobs across your local network. With a few precautions, such as making sure any plugins are accessible by all machines, it works fine.

There are also several free and commercial render controllers that offer features the very basic native controller does not.

Consult the manual for 'exactly'.

yoshiii
02-07-2015, 07:31 PM
Essentially, it sends jobs across your local network. With a few precautions, such as making sure any plugins are accessible by all machines, it works fine.

There are also several free and commercial render controllers that offer features the very basic native controller does not.

Consult the manual for 'exactly'.

So if two computers, I need to have them networked together? Does all 3D software work like that or do I need 2nd copies of the software?

This helps with rendering times?

MonroePoteet
02-07-2015, 07:50 PM
Yes, to use LW's Screamer net, the nodes must share a network drive where job and acknowledgement files are located, and where a consistent folder hierarchy for scenes, object, motions, plug-ins, etc. is located. I don't know about any other 3D software multi-node rendering, but LW's ScreamerNet works that way. LWSN.exe (the ScreamerNet client) is included in the LW distribution.

Whether you need another node or not depends on your time constraints and workflow. I worked for many, many years with a single node, which I'd just set to rendering when I went to sleep and let it run all night. Having two equally powerful nodes rendering won't quite halve the render time: there's communication between the nodes, and LWSN (the ScreamerNet client) uses polling to get work, so it's not incredibly fast to pick up the next frame to be rendered. Having said that though, it's very nice to have a couple of good machines cranking away.

FYI, here's the first of four good tutorials on setting it up (not by me, thanks to Richie Allen on YouTube):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x66tBf4Qfc4

mTp

yoshiii
02-07-2015, 08:31 PM
Yes, to use LW's Screamer net, the nodes must share a network drive where job and acknowledgement files are located, and where a consistent folder hierarchy for scenes, object, motions, plug-ins, etc. is located. I don't know about any other 3D software multi-node rendering, but LW's ScreamerNet works that way. LWSN.exe (the ScreamerNet client) is included in the LW distribution.

Whether you need another node or not depends on your time constraints and workflow. I worked for many, many years with a single node, which I'd just set to rendering when I went to sleep and let it run all night. Having two equally powerful nodes rendering won't quite halve the render time: there's communication between the nodes, and LWSN (the ScreamerNet client) uses polling to get work, so it's not incredibly fast to pick up the next frame to be rendered. Having said that though, it's very nice to have a couple of good machines cranking away.

FYI, here's the first of four good tutorials on setting it up (not by me, thanks to Richie Allen on YouTube):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x66tBf4Qfc4

mTp

If thats the case, than I will probably get the FX8350 system and than build a i7 system for main.

Thanks

jeric_synergy
02-07-2015, 09:13 PM
Depending on the scene, it's virtually 50/50 between 2 nodes (ie, twice as fast). Not mathematically, but practically.

Of course, if you have access to other machines in your home/office, you can add them too. Even a slow machine will help when run all night. And the node is free.

roboman
02-07-2015, 09:56 PM
So if two computers, I need to have them networked together? Does all 3D software work like that or do I need 2nd copies of the software?

This helps with rendering times?

The simple answer is yes, network the computers. The running files back and forth between the computers is a huge pain and leads to problems and mistakes.

Newtek/Lightwave seem to be better then most about render nodes. I haven't looked around for a long time, but a lot use to make you pay for nodes.

Does it help with render times... If you have one computer that is going to take two days to render 1000 frames, it will only take one day if you have two computers. That's assuming they are the same. In the past I've grabbed off every computer I could to add cpu's for render nodes. Sure, if it's a slow old computer it will do far fewer frames then the newer faster one, but every frame it does if one the new fast computer doesn't have to. It might be 1 frame for every 10 the faster one does, but that means you will be done 10% sooner. If pushed, I've got 3 desktops and 4 laptops I could hook up, and could probably barrow a few more. Haven't had the need lately.If you have a deadline you'll probably need to do that or pay some one who runs a render farm to render the frames.

vonpietro
02-08-2015, 12:03 AM
i used to use a freebie called lightnet - but since then, maybe 4 or 5 that are better - just buy them and be happy with easy setups.

http://www.joejustice.org/lightnet-cloud
i think this is lightnet latest build, but not sure.

lightnet was a bit much to set up, but once set up it worked extremely well.

The main point of a network render is this -
work on your main system
render on your network - even if it's only one machine.

the big benefit is that your not wasting time waiting for renders on your one machine. You can keep working.

for me that is one of the biggest and perhaps overlooked benefit.

roboman makes an excellent point about adding slow computers too. Sometimes its more cost effective to get a bunch of slow computers to add to your network than one or two uber computers.
depends on how much cheaper they are, but for sure using all your computers is great. (just remember they should all have the same minimum memory, otherwise they will cache to disk and really slow down)

jeric_synergy
02-08-2015, 02:56 AM
I did a corp. video at an insurance company once, and the thought of all those hundreds of computers running screen savers all night about made me cry. What a waste.

rdolishny
02-09-2015, 11:30 AM
I use free Amletto with a donation to render thumbnails over a small renderfarm of maybe 4 machines.

When it's time to do the full render, I use Garagefarm.net. They are Lightwave friendly and may end up cheaper for odd jobs than buying another dedicated render machine. They have a LW plugin so it's a one-button affair, and files automatically render back to my local machine. In fact, often times the files take longer to download than to render. Amazing.

vonpietro
02-09-2015, 02:04 PM
i remember amletto - its better than lightnet. Its free now? do you have the link for that?

rdolishny
02-09-2015, 02:55 PM
i remember amletto - its better than lightnet. Its free now? do you have the link for that?

http://virtualcoder.co.uk/amleto/

It's really good now and yes it's by donation.

The downside for IT and TDs is that it downloads the LWS file and media to a local machine adding a bit of network congestion when it fires up, and also when it writes to your local directory. Solutions like Butterflynet render which I also have are technically superior, but a bit more of a challenge to administer.

Amleto just works every time first time. It's amazing.

Greenlaw
02-09-2015, 06:01 PM
I used to use Lightnet years ago. In fact, we used it in the Box at Rhythm & Hues for many years. Eventually we switched to Chameleon and later to ButterflyNet Render. The only reason we dropped Lightnet was that it became less reliable as our crew expanded. It was fine with a small group though.

In my home studio I use BNR 5. I'm pretty happy with it. At the last place I freelanced, we were using Deadline Render, which is pretty good too. Both BNR and Deadline are commerical render controllers though. The nice thing about commercial controllers like these is that the can control other applications besides Lightwave, including compositing programs.

I tried Ameletto a while back. It seemed to work very reliably except that, from what I recall, it sends your entire content directory over the network to each node. Considering my content directories can easily grow to many, many gigabytes in size, Ameletto wasn't practical for me. It's free though, so no complaining about that. :)

If you're feeling adventurous, you can use the built-in controller. Compared to other render controllers, it's a bit kludgey to set up but it works. I occasionally need to set it up when I'm troubleshooting a third-party controller and I need to check that the problem is not a native LWSN issue.

G.

spherical
02-09-2015, 06:13 PM
If thats the case, than I will probably get the FX8350 system and than build a i7 system for main.

You've learned that the Intel system is better. Just build it and use your existing machine as a second render box until you can build a second Intel system. Then, you will have three boxes to render on.

Danner
02-10-2015, 04:03 AM
The content directory problem with amletto is solved by packaging your scene before rendering, that way only the stuff you are really using gets copied over. Looking at the Deadline Render page it has free version that supports two nodes, but I can't find the price of the paid version. http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/deadline/

As for Butterfly Net Render it's $144 up to 8 nodes. But I was bummed that in order to use my 16 core workstation I'd have to pay an extra $190 to activate support for 'Large Core Computers'

vonpietro
02-10-2015, 01:55 PM
how much did the 16 core computer cost to put together?

Greenlaw
02-10-2015, 02:21 PM
FWIW, with a multi-threaded application like Lightwave, I'm not sure there's a big advantage in assigning multiple render nodes to a multi-core computer vs. having the computer hammer through the frames using all of its resources, especially with larger or more complex scenes. Years ago, our IT guy at the Box ran some tests and he determined it was better for our group to not divide up the resources. I think it got messier when a computer was handling completely different scenes and it had to load and manage all the assets for each scene, not to mention all the extra network traffic that generated.

I guess multiple nodes on a single computer might make a difference with simpler scenes though.

At my home studio, I have six multi-core computers as render nodes, and I just set each one to work as a single BNR node. I know in my case with the Brudders renders, this was faster than assigning multiple BNR nodes to each computer.

Anyway, it might be worth doing your own bench marks before thinking about buying extra nodes. (I wish I had done that--right now I have a whole bunch of unused BNR nodes.)

Regarding Ameletto, you're right, packaging would reduce the size. To me, that seems like a hassle though because I typically submit dozens of renders every day. But of course when you need to submit that many scenes a day, it's time to get a commercial render controller. :p

I haven't done this myself but a neat trick a friend of mine does is he uses Ameletto to submit to a farm he created on Amazon's Cloud. I should ask him how he does that.

G.

Danner
02-10-2015, 05:10 PM
@Vonpietro: The 16 core is a dual Xeon E5-2670 @ 2.6ghz. At the time, the whole system (over 3 years ago) with top of the line components (32gb of ram, absurdly expensive power supply etc) cost around 8 thousand dollars, It has been a good investment, the speed at which you can light and shade a scene is a joy and the quality you can achieve by doing more iterations per hour cannot be ignored. It is also used as a node of the render farm at night. The rest of the machines are six identical i7 3930 that are about 47% as fast. The newest generation of i7s is still not as fast as the 3 year old dual Xeon system so it still has several more years of service as a competitive workstation.

@ Greenlaw The BNR page is not talking about nodes but cores, it simply charges you extra in order to be used on machines like mine with more than 14 cores, even if it's considered one render node.

Greenlaw
02-10-2015, 05:13 PM
Ah, okay, my misunderstanding. Thanks for clarifying.

Wow, that's weird though. I don't have any machines with that many cores yet but it's something for me to consider when I upgrade my main workstation later this year.

G.

VirtualFM
02-12-2015, 07:25 PM
Sorry to interrupt, but as far as renderfarm managers are concerned I love Smedge. It's very easy to configure in the multiple machines (just run it and use one as master, it will take care of the rest) or install as service. It's Lightwave -friendly and runs really well with it. It also controls about every other 3D program or compositing program around (look under the "Features" menu).

It's free up to 3 machines (it can fire multiple LWSN on each machine, depending on the nr of cores you allow it to use. You can prefer have only one LWSN rendering with all cores, or you may prefer to lauch 2 or more LWSN using less cores. If you have the memory it can be faster that way) and then it's $100 per machine, I think.

Since it's free for 3 machines it's a great option for freelancers that usually have a couple computers around.

http://www.uberware.net

Latest version and some screenshots:
http://www.uberware.net/forums/forums/viewthread/711

ekho
02-16-2015, 04:26 AM
+1 to Smedge, i tried every major controllers, so far it seems smedge is the best! I love it, however i'll have to test if the machines can see each other via hamachi or not :)

ekho
02-16-2015, 04:53 PM
Okay, so if anyone interested: yes smedge is able to use hamachi :boogiedow

Mr Rid
02-17-2015, 04:40 AM
I never got amletto to work. No errors, it just sits there doing nothing. Support couldnt figure a solution.

Sensei
02-17-2015, 07:12 AM
I never got amletto to work. No errors, it just sits there doing nothing. Support couldnt figure a solution.

Blocked some TCP/IP/UDP ports on firewall/switch/router.. ?

vonpietro
02-18-2015, 12:43 AM
hey danner - if i tried to put the same system today do you know how much that would cost - what kind of video card would you recommend for a beast like that ? titan?

also - if i put a system together today, would i still want to use xeon procs?

oh ya just for fun - how big is the power supply?

jeric_synergy
02-18-2015, 01:40 AM
If one is just putting together a render node, wouldn't you absolutely lowball the graphic card?

Danner
02-18-2015, 03:16 AM
No idea about the cost of this machine today.. but If I was looking for a future proof workstation I'd consider getting one of the newer Xeons, they are up to 16 cores each now! (double what this machine has now), having said that I'd stay away from the very top of the line, it's usually overly expensive. As far as video card goes, LW does well on the titan but again I find it overly expensive for the benefits, I'd go with a gforce 780. If you plan on rendering with octane then don't get a dual Xeon, get a regular I7 and a mobo with lots of slots and add 4 Titans =). The power supply is a Cooler Master Silent Pro Gold 1000w. I love the case we chose for this one it's a Silverstone Raven RV03. It's really odd, the motherboard is rotated so the connectors are on the top instead of the back and hard drives are behind the motherboard, but it's really well thought out.

Greenlaw
02-18-2015, 10:15 AM
If one is just putting together a render node, wouldn't you absolutely lowball the graphic card?

That's what I did. My six render boxes don't even have a graphics card, just the on-board Intel video chip. IMO, the only reason to put a graphics card in a render-only box might be if you're network rendering with GPUs. Considering the cost, that's probably not worth it.

G.

vonpietro
02-18-2015, 02:32 PM
I just found in 3d artist which talks about this thing called the vca - (its a great mag by the way)

xeon e5 2.8gh 20 physical cores 40 hyperthreaded 256gigs ram - eight quadro k6000 each with 12 gigs of ram price - 32,000 pounds.

8 massive gpus- says 23,400 cuda cores.

this sounds pretty much like a super computer masquerading as a desktop. =)

apparently you can rent it.
__________________________________________________ ___________

awhile ago i found a $50 motherboard that accepted a amd and plugged some ram into it and called it a day - it had onboard graphics so i didn't put a card in it either. - super cheap to set it up - i got a really inexpensive case and 500w powersupply too.

Maybe someone can for fun try to spec out / build the perfect - super cheap lightwave render node machine?
minimum 32 gigs of ram though thats mandatory. 8gigs just does not cut it. with a cheap 40 gig ssd card too(so its fast). forget 1tb traditional drives. THat $50 buck mother board i found also had ethernet built into it gigabit too. I'll look and see what kind of motherboards are super cheap but do 32gigs of ram.

vonpietro
02-19-2015, 02:36 AM
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-xeon-e7-v3-cpus,28550.html

18 core xeon's coming

http://www.servethehome.com/asrock-rack-releases-intel-xeon-e5-2600-v3-motherboards-ddr3/
these guys support ddr3 as well as 4 making ram choice way cheaper.
supports the Xeon E5-2600 v3 (Haswell-EP) chip which has alot of cores.
so the motherboard is dual socket - so two 12 core procs - 24 cores!! 48 hyperthreads.
=)

ok
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/xeon-e5-2600-v2-ivy-bridge-ep-benchmarks,3714.html
some prices on the xeon's - so two of them would cost 4k.

the mother board is about 300
128gigs of ram? not sure. maybe 1200
good graphcis card about $600 (titan for 2k)
so this super system would run somewhere around 6000 or 7000 so?

Danner
02-19-2015, 05:11 AM
Sounds like the modern equivalent of what I have. If you do a lot of lighting, shading and rendering optimization and are not using a GPU renderer then that 24 core machine is awesome.
It would render the benchmark marbles scene in around 25 minutes (opposed to 38 min on mine and 1h 10min with an i7 3930)

vonpietro
02-19-2015, 02:39 PM
if you settle for a 8 core xeon the price comes down alot

only 25 minutes? with all those cores? wouldn't all those cores really speed up the rendering?

jeric_synergy
02-19-2015, 02:47 PM
Surely there's a well-known trade-off point for cores versus RAM etc.

vonpietro
02-19-2015, 02:50 PM
do you know what the trade off is? you can have 256 gigs of ram. =)

jeric_synergy
02-20-2015, 01:40 AM
Only theoretically: how many MBs will accept that much RAM? And how much does such a MB cost?

This is, I hear, the kind of thing they teach in biz school: finding the mix of cores, ram, and infrastructure that will result in the most cycles for the least amount of cash.

Or, in common parlance, 'most bang for the buck'.

vonpietro
02-20-2015, 01:59 AM
apparently the dd4 memory is way more.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820242018&nm_mc=KNC-MSNSearch&cm_mmc=KNC-MSNSearch-_-pla-_-Memory+%28Server+Memory%29-_-20242018
$230 for 16 gigs stick.
my laptop ram was 150.
difference was 16 gb stick vs 8gb stick -

so 3648 bucks for 16 of those yielding 256 gigs total.
so 1824 bucks for 128gigs with 8 16gb sticks. (maxed out on board)

Supports DDR4 2133/1866/1600 LR DIMM, Rigistered, ECC DIMM and NVDIMM, total 16 x DIMM slot
so this motherboard EP2C612D16FM takes the 16 gig sticks. max looks to be 128gigs.
it costs about 300 bucks for the mother board.
It clearly takes two cpus for a max of 24 cores.

12 core xeon at 2.7ghz fastest one - 2600 bucks each.
so we get a 24 physical cores 128 gig monster, throw in a $2000 titan z. and were off and running.
cost is now something like - 10,000 for all top of the line stuff. Fastest xeons with 12 cores, fastest ram, and the super fast titan.

How nice.

Danner
02-20-2015, 02:46 AM
I wish they were cheaper, as far as render farm goes you'd probably be better off with a few I7s
instead but for workstation power it can't be beat.

25 min was a "guesstimate" I have 16 cores so if they are about the same speed but were 24 that would be the time reduction, The new Xeons do have newer tech (bigger and faster cache etc.) so it might be faster per mhz and be down to 20-22 min on the benchmark scene, I'd be surprised if it was any faster than that tho.

jeric_synergy
02-20-2015, 02:08 PM
Render farm versus workstation are really two different tools. In a pinch, you don't even need the CASE (!!!), just the PS. ;)

vonpietro, thanks for doing that research, I think it clarifies the issues. A side by side comparison w/ cycles/dollar would really be swell.

rdolishny
02-20-2015, 02:45 PM
Or garagefarm for a few dollars.

rwhunt99
02-20-2015, 02:49 PM
my two cents : I use Tequila scream on my little render garden, and I've had no problems with it.

it is free with no support or $299 with support. http://www.tequilascream.com/

vonpietro
02-20-2015, 04:42 PM
WOW , i did not know there were so many render controllers. Does someone have a definitive list of render controllers.
I remember a guy at UFo Wrote one himself called chameleon i think. UFO films was using it, and it had alot of neat things in it.

as to the super computer workstation class.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820239425&nm_mc=KNC-MSNSearch&cm_mmc=KNC-MSNSearch-_-pla-_-Memory+%28Server+Memory%29-_-20239425
here is a 32gig stick 1x- 578 bucks - you need 8 of them to make up 256gigs. $4624 just for the ram. 2300 if you want to buy now and upgrade later. (still using the 32gig sticks).

Since the idea was best bang for the dollar - 32gig sticks are betting on future 256gb motherboards coming around. - just plop your ram in the new mother board.
still. getting 2 6 cores instead of 2 12 cores gives you a 12 core monster. And with 128gigs thats 10.6 gigs per core.Pretty respectable.
unless hyperthreading gets allocated ram as well then your down to 5.3 gigs per 12 physical cores and 12 hyperthreaded cores.
anyone know if thats the case where ram gets divided between cores? hyperthreads, or is just a big ol pool of ram that gets accessed as needed? I have no idea how that works.

--
Xeon E5-2643 v2
6 cores
25 MB cache
8 GT/s DDR3-1866 3.5 GHz
130 W
$1552 price - thats down from $2600 for the 12 core version.
so 2 of those is 3100 with the expensive ram - $2300 its brought the price down to about 8000. with 12 less cores though. however its the fastest clock speed of 3.5 ghz - not bad. So cheaper alittle faster, better core per gigabyte ratio.
someone who knows this stuff might be able to tell us if more cores is better or if optimal cores like 12 for 128gb is best.

anyone going to make one of these things? =)
all you have to do is refinance the house !!

in the next few months those prices are sure to drop 5% to 15%

Greenlaw
02-20-2015, 05:04 PM
Chameleon was pretty good. My friend Jim Perry wrote that. We used it in the Box at Rhythm & Hues for several years. That was quite a long time ago though and I don't know if Jim is still supporting it.

These days I like BNR 5 and use it in my home studio. I've been using BNR since version 3, and it's what we were using in the Box before we closed shop. Occasionally, I run into problem with BNR when a new version of Lightwave is released but the developer has always been responsive about fixing things when they break.

At the last studio I worked, I got to tinker around with Deadline. Most render controllers have a master program that runs on one computer but Deadline is interesting in that it runs independently on each computer on the network, and they all talk to each other. That's nice if you're concerned about the 'central' computer going down during a heavy render session.

Long, long ago, I used Lightnet. That was a simple controller good for a small network. It's since become Lightnet Cloud (or something like that.) I have no experience with the new version.

G.

vonpietro
02-20-2015, 08:34 PM
is jim perry the guy from UFO films?

erikals
02-21-2015, 08:25 AM
you could install a second copy of LW on a second computer and use it for rendering only...

...unsure what the eula says about that

edit: nope, looks like you cannot do that legally...
http://www.timaxmedia.com/html/help/LW8_EULA.htm
unless the eula changed since LW8


This License allows you to use one copy of the Software on a single computer at a time.
To "use" the Software means that the Software is either loaded in the temporary memory (i.e., RAM)
of a computer, or installed on the permanent memory of a computer (i.e., hard disk, CD ROM, etc.).

which kinda sucks cause it's much easier    :l

Greenlaw
02-21-2015, 01:56 PM
is jim perry the guy from UFO films?

Jim and I both worked there in the late 1990's. I left in 2001 to work for Rhythm & Hues, and I think he left shortly after to start his own software company Komodo Laboratories (http://www.komodolabs.com/). So, yeah, that was quite some time ago.

G.

jeric_synergy
02-21-2015, 03:38 PM
you could install a second copy of LW on a second computer and use it for rendering only...

...unsure what the eula says about that
huhwuhhh? How is "second copy" not equivalent to a render node, which is obviously OK?

Greenlaw
02-21-2015, 10:35 PM
You can actually install and use Lightwave (Layout and Modeler) on multiple computers too but the key is that you can only run one copy at a time. Lightwave does check for that and will make the second license run in demo mode. This means you'll get a watermark on those renders.

Network rendering is different. When you're network rendering a scene you're actually running LWSN.exe and you're allowed to run up to 999 copies of that program. You can install additional copies of Lightwave on other computers to run LWSN directly on each or use a render controller to run one copy of LWSN from a shared location on many computers.

G.

Greenlaw
02-21-2015, 11:41 PM
Here's a new one: http://www.lightspeedrender.com/

I've never used it but it's free while in beta.

G.

spherical
02-22-2015, 05:05 AM
When you're network rendering a scene you're actually running LWSN.exe and you're allowed to run up to 999 copies of that program.

IIRC, it's unlimited now.


huhwuhhh? How is "second copy" not equivalent to a render node, which is obviously OK?

A second copy can do all that the first copy can. A render node only crunches renders and sends back to the first (and only) copy.

Greenlaw
02-22-2015, 12:18 PM
IIRC, it's unlimited now.

Excellent! And I was just about to reach my limit too. :D

G.

jeric_synergy
02-22-2015, 01:07 PM
OK, I know, but anytime I've used LWSN I've installed the whole app in node machines because who knows what DLLs will be required?

I just never run the rest of the program. I think my largest 'farm' was more of a "window box" (ha! a pun!) of 4 machines. Not even a garden.

Greenlaw
02-22-2015, 01:55 PM
That's one way to set up Lightwave for network rendering but it's really not that different when you use a shared directory because all the machines are still drawing from a full installation of Lightwave, it's just at another location. For network rendering, I prefer using a single shared location because it's easier to keep program files updated and it insures that all nodes are using the same versions, plugins, DLLs or whatever. I don't bother to install Lightwave on any of our render boxes--it's just not necessary, at least not with BNR.

Obviously, I do a full local install for my mobile computer because I usually don't have access to the shared directory when I'm away from home.

AFAIK, there's no EULA violation with installing multiple copies of Lightwave on different machines, you just can't run multiple instances of a single license at the same time. And normally the software won't allow you to do that anyway--it should force a second instance to run in demo mode until you quit the first instance.

This topic is mostly irrelevant with regards to network rendering anyway. The EULA is mainly talking about running and using Layout and Modeler, not running LWSN for network rendering.

G.

jeric_synergy
02-23-2015, 01:27 PM
As ever, Greenlaw, thanks for your valuable insight: it never even occurred to me to run the app over the network-- if it had occurred to me, I might have incorrectly assumed that DLLs and whatnot wouldn't be found by the node machine. A little knowledge is dangerous, esp. when it's wrong.

Thanks for the tip!

Greenlaw
02-23-2015, 04:32 PM
Sure. :)

To be clear, there's nothing wrong with doing a full install locally, especially if you have a ton of plugins because Lightwave may launch more quickly with a local install than it would pulling all that data across a network. There's advantages and disadvantages to each, and you need to decide what's more convenient/efficient for your particular situation.

But for network rendering specifically, a local install is probably not necessary. (It may depend on your render controller though. In my experience, they all work a little differently from each other.)

G.

vonpietro
02-23-2015, 04:42 PM
oK, SO I'Ve decided to make a quickie render box. Does anyone know what the absolutely cheapest box would be?
prob amd 6 core with 32 gigs - 32 gigs is the only mandatory component.

also - someone mentioned a render controller that ran on the machine instead over the network? how does that work.
I've got a situation where i'd only have the one machine running - i have a laptop but it wont always be hooked into the network - it would be the controller node, and the box the lwsn node. But better would be if it didnt need to have the laptop on the network.
does any of the controllers work independently? It sounded like that one did, i have to reread to find it.

So far frys has a super simple 4gb system for 217 - including box, powersupply, dvd drive, 500gig hd, and an amd quad core. All i need is to max the ram - unknown how much ram it will let me jam in there though. Still 217 is c h e a p!

Still i'd like to be able to put 32 gigs in it - i'll settle for 24 though.

anyone know what the optimal price/performance is?
obviously it doesn't need a graphics card or a dvd player. =)

jeric_synergy
02-23-2015, 06:55 PM
So far frys has a super simple 4gb system for 217 - including box, powersupply, dvd drive, 500gig hd, and an amd quad core. All i need is to max the ram - unknown how much ram it will let me jam in there though. Still 217 is c h e a p!

217 USdollar$?

R U sure?? Got a link?

If you could configure one w/o a dvd drive, that'd save you, what, $16? That's 7%. ;)

spherical
02-23-2015, 07:31 PM
ASUS says it goes up to 16GB.

vonpietro
02-23-2015, 07:35 PM
http://www.frys.com/product/8356687?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
there was a 20 buck rebate in the paper.
Not bad huh - it advertised at 217. - US in burbank california at frys computers.

still 250 is still pretty good for a 4gig quad core- I'm not sure i could build it cheaper - plus it's already built saving me the hassle of putting it together.

Still - i'm researching for lower- 4gb isn't enough. I'd like min 24 gigs.

for the price i might settle for 16gb =) if ram costs $150 for 16gb- its still only $375ish
for an extra render node that can run 24/7 =)

its got networking - keyboard and mouse too =)

Operating System


Genuine Windows 8.1 Bing

CPU


AMD Sempron X4-3850

Chipset


AMD Integrated “Yangtze” FCH

Graphic


AMD HD8280

Memory


4GB
at 1600MHz

Storage


500GB SATA hard drive (7200rpm)

Optical Drive


24X DVD-RW

LAN


10/100/1000Mbps

Audio


High Definition 6 Channel Audio SonicMaster

Front I/O Ports


1 x 6 -in-1 Card Reader

1 x Headphone

1 x Microphone

2 x USB 3.0
2 x USB 2.0
2 x USB 3.0

Back I/O Ports


6 x USB 2.0

1 x HDMI-Out

1 x VGA(D-Sub)-Out

1 x RJ45 LAN

1 x 5.1Channel Audio

Power Supply


300W

Dimensions


9.4” x 19.3” x 20” (WxHxD)

Weight


19.2 lbs

Accessories


1 x Warranty Card
1 x Power Cord
1 x Quick Manual
1 x Keyboard
1 x Mouse

vonpietro
02-24-2015, 12:53 AM
Here is the best bang for the buck that i could come up with so far a cheap $500 render node box using 6 core amd and 16gb of ram.


Do it yourself - prices as of 2/23/2015
newegg $109 for an amd six core. as fast as an I5 but a third the price.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113286&nm_mc=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r&cm_mmc=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r-_-Electronics-_-AMD-_-N82E16819113286&scpid=7&scid=scsho5451143#top

not sure what the black addition does for us.
http://www.amazon.com/AMD-FD6300WMHKBOX-FX-6300-Processor-Edition/dp/B009O7YORK


deluxe model
8core version for those wanting a little more power -
http://www.amazon.com/AMD-FD8320FRHKBOX-FX-8320-8-Core-Black/dp/B009O7YU56/ref=sr_1_cc_3?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1424757883&sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=amd+FX-6300+motherboard

cpu fan $27
http://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master-Contact-Heatpipes-RR-T4-18PK-R1/dp/B00BSKY1M4/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2_m?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1424760004&sr=1-2-fkmr1&keywords=AMD+FD6300WMHKBOX+FX-6300+fan

motherboard - CHEAP - $53 bucks - video is on the motherboard not the cpu - so good enough to view render node.
http://www.amazon.com/Gigabyte-DDR3-Micro-Motherboard-GA-78LMT-USB3/dp/B009FC3YJ8/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1424758136&sr=1-2-fkmr2&keywords=AMD+FX-6300+Vishera+motherboard
however i'm not sure if it accepts the 6300 amd - anyone can confirm this? I like because 32gig ram max. and super cheap.

ram- 16gb - $123 - 32gb - $246
http://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Technology-16-Motherboard-KVR13N9K2/dp/B00864RASM/ref=sr_1_15?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1424758760&sr=1-15&keywords=DDR3-1333+240pin+8gb+dimm

case $39
http://www.amazon.com/Rosewill-Micro-ATX-Computer-12-5-Inch-LINE-M/dp/B00AAJ0ZGK/ref=sr_1_cc_2?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1424759319&sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=case+Micro+ATX+Motherboard

HD - ssd 40 gb $47
http://www.amazon.com/Intel-2-5-Inch-Solid-State-Drive-Brown/dp/B004U8TBJY/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1424760368&sr=1-1&keywords=40gb+ssd

Super cheap lightwave node with 6 cores and 16 gb ram. - total cost - about
So $109 for a 6 core mid level cpu - $53 for a cheap mother board. - $123 run of the mill 16gb ($246 - 32gigs )
case $39 cpu fan - $28 HD ssd 40gig - $48
so total so far is - $400 bucks - mind you this is for a 3.5ghz amd that turbos at 4.1!!!!!! It a little extra but faster. (apparently that doesn't matter to much in the benchmarks though)

With tax and shipping and misc extras like keyboard and mouse This render node costs about $500 bucks. Mind you local shops might provide cheaper cases, ssd cards.

I wonder how much slower the $217 wonder box from fries is? For double the price you get 2 more cores and 12 more gigs and ssd. So my kit render node box is a bit more render friendly - and with 16 gigs you can handle those larger scenes.

cheers.
I'm still doing the research, so if anyone builds something like this let me know. =) I think i can get away with a 30gig ssd instead of a 40ssd, and i can probably get a cheaper case at frys. If i use USED parts i may even get it down another $100 bucks putting it around $400 bucks for this thing. Also getting things local would save on shipping which can add almost $50 bucks to the cost. - so check your local ads.

If anyone knows better about the amd's which is good or not - i'm basing it off the tomshardware blender scores - since its 3d were looking at after all - no lightwave score - they used to have it.


middle of the pack - cpu speeds - blender chart
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/cpu-charts-2013/-03-Blender,3162.html

edit - heres the closest box for 509
minus 8gb and super fast ssd and fancy cpu cooler (that one allows overclocking and AMD is very OVERCLOCK friendly!!)

Now i have to go check if any boxes are out there for less. =) So far closest one is about $150 bucks away.
Did not find one sporting 32 gig capability.

So By putting it together - you get- just alittle more for less. saves about $100 - $150 bucks
unless someone finds better. Or you put even cheaper components.
ssi is sata II by the way!!!


p.s the econo frys cpu is an AMD Sempron X4-3850 its not even on the compare list.
To make that 16gb it runs up the price to $350. for a few hundred more it's like getting 3 or 4 of these.
its proc spec is 1300mhz - way slower than the 3.5 of the six core.
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Jaguar/AMD-Sempron%203850%20-%20ED3850JAH44HM.html
only $36 for the cpu as opposed to the much more powerful six core for 109.


Over all I think i did ok balancing the needs of the render and the needs of the many.

edit- update -120 gig for just alittle more $52 bucks - so way more space for 5 bucks more.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7455477&Sku=K24-0301
its sata III - will this thing still be able to read it - i assume sata III is sata II compatible.
So there - 80 extra gigs for the system!!

whoops forgot to add the PSU- heres case and PSU for $34
http://www.frys.com/product/6535653?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
hmm - it says atx not mini - will an atx case take a mini atx motherboard? i dont know.
bing says
If it's a normal micro ATX board, then yes, it'll fit (it's listed as compatible on the Newegg page, and on BitFenix's product page). Most cases that can take an ATX can also take a micro ATX.
so good to go.

This one seems to be a better one. It would take some looking around to find the best one.
http://www.amazon.com/Rosewill-MicroATX-Tower-Computer-FBM-01/dp/B005LIDU5S/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1424768164&sr=8-2&keywords=mini+atx+case


So there ya go yoshii - $500 for a second node How much were you planning on spending?


EDIT - http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+FX-6300+Six-Core&id=1781http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+FX-6300+Six-Core&id=1781
LOOKS LIKE I GUESSED RIGHT ABOUT performance and cpu - the amd 6300 is smack on top!
super

spherical
02-24-2015, 02:51 AM
motherboard - CHEAP - $53 bucks - video is on the motherboard not the cpu - so good enough to view render node.

"On the motherboard" is "on the CPU". IOW, the CPU is processing the video output to the monitors, not a dedicated GPU on an expansion card, which offloads the work from the CPU. That this is a render node build, you don't even need any video if you work it right. It's called "running headless". Access the machine through other means, as it doesn't need to display anything; you can control it from the main workstation.

vonpietro
02-24-2015, 03:01 AM
when i was looking it all up - i checked to see if graphics card was built into the CPU like on intel's sandy bridge cpus.
THis amd chip does NOT have GPU built in which is why its like a third cheaper.

THats all i meant. When looking at the specs - some guy said the motherboard has the GPU on it, and i verified - no GPU on the CPU. whew say that 10x fast

I didn't include a GPU card - its whatever comes with the motherboard for video.
I like having the option of accessing the computer even if i have to use a switcher.

no headless rendernodes for me - tech guys will tell you - sometimes you just need to see whats going on.

Danner
02-24-2015, 03:29 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8kua5B5K3I

Now this is a render farm! (bitcoin mine really) They have 900 broken or obsolete boxes in a room since they switched to renderblade style machines to save on space and energy costs.

vonpietro
02-24-2015, 03:44 AM
my friend really likes bitcoin - it ran up to 1300 and now is like something 200 or so i have not checked.
That these guys have huge mining operations for bit coin - is weird to me - there is no pretty artwork when its done.
i hate it.

(although i like the idea of bit coin)

vonpietro
02-28-2015, 01:17 AM
it seems amd does not hyperthread. Also - it seems the athlon 8 core gives better speed for just about $50 bucks more. In the long run thats worth the extra 50.

Are 8 real cores better than intels 4 cores and 4 hyper threads? on the chart it beats out i5's no problem.

so the new render box would be about 100 bucks more with 8 core amd and supporting motherboard - I want the micro atx format so i can stick it all in a smaller case. Needs some more research.
the 8 core is about 170 right now at 4.2 ghz. however you can get one for 110 at 3.5ghz. They both overclock, but the $170 is garuntee 4.2
so still affordable at $110 bucks.

vonpietro
03-08-2015, 02:16 PM
ok i've selectd a video card
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JZ4SN4C/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=13LQ47KWBZ8LH&coliid=I3S33ULMU900OG

(make sure to read the comments on the bottom)

jeric_synergy
03-08-2015, 03:32 PM
A new kick-*** machine is obvious, but how worthwhile are cheap junkers that can be picked up for a song?

After all, they can run all night long.

vonpietro
03-08-2015, 03:58 PM
there is a threshold between useful and junk =)

jeric_synergy
03-08-2015, 04:22 PM
Yes, but where is it? And it's different for every task.

At a certain point though, the ELECTRICITY is costing more than the ....time you're saving??? Or something.