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vonpietro
02-04-2015, 02:39 AM
Ever since i saw instancing - i knew modeled grass was the way to go.

apparently - andrew price realized this as well and has really outdone himself.
http://www.blenderguru.com/product/grass-essentials/

very impressive results.

xfrog gave us alot of these.

he explains that grass isn't a single strand, and with that he's getting very realistic results.

not bad huh.

adrian
02-04-2015, 05:26 AM
How awesome is that? If only we could get something similar object-wise for LightWave.

prometheus
02-04-2015, 06:24 AM
yupp awesome.
This seems interesting with animation too....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-Z1glEEk0s


I might need to install blender and give it ago again, when I first tried it..I simply couldnīt stand the workflow and UI, but..with things like this, and built in liquid fluids, build in smoke and fire fluids, and also what I think, the option to make
itemīs volumetric with materials and getting quite decent clouds from it, I need to start evaluate that.

OnlineRender
02-04-2015, 08:57 AM
phew who needs blender :P , great stuff however

http://3dxyz.pro/wild-grass-and-flowers/

http://3dxyz.pro/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/grassrender.jpg

Andy Webb
02-04-2015, 09:04 AM
Very nice :)

adrian
02-05-2015, 02:42 AM
Yes those objects are the best we have but my results with them haven't been as good as the blender examples. Maybe I just haven't played around with them enough but it's frustrating as it usually takes SO long to render especially if you're using radiosity and loads of instances.

erikals
02-05-2015, 03:39 AM
the huge problem with using Instances instead of Fibers is that the AntiAliasing for Instances takes... forever...

if possible, it'd be much better to use FiberFX for this, because of speed. but i haven't had it render quite 'that' Blender-good...

subnote 1, i'm talking for animation, for stills Instancing can get away with much lower AntiAliasing
subnote 2, talking about the thin grass specifically here

Sanchon
02-05-2015, 03:47 AM
the huge problem with using Instances instead of Fibers is that the AntiAliasing for Instances takes... forever...

You shouldn't use adaptive sampling for this such of things - only main AA like 12-20 or high adaptive threshold like 0.1

erikals
02-05-2015, 03:48 AM
Sanchon, yes, but FiberFX still renders at a fraction of the time versus Instances
...again, for flicker-free animation and thin grass

------------------------

an interesting idea is by the way is to mix FiberFX with Octane in LightWave
...new feature in LightWave 2015 allows for this

Sanchon
02-05-2015, 03:54 AM
...but it's frustrating as it usually takes SO long to render especially if you're using radiosity and loads of instances.

Did you tried individual low GI settings for grass objects - not only global GI settings ? For example - RPE=20, SBR=5, AT=45, MPS=0.5-1, MaxPS=15.

erikals
02-05-2015, 04:22 AM
i could, but the problem is not GI, or GI splotching, but rather alias flickering...

bobakabob
02-05-2015, 05:40 AM
Hmm, if these Blender models are as good as they look, couldn't they be purchased and exported to LW for instancing?

prometheus
02-05-2015, 06:29 AM
the huge problem with using Instances instead of Fibers is that the AntiAliasing for Instances takes... forever...

if possible, it'd be much better to use FiberFX for this, because of speed. but i haven't had it render quite 'that' Blender-good...

subnote 1, i'm talking for animation, for stills Instancing can get away with much lower AntiAliasing
subnote 2, talking about the thin grass specifically here


yeah..I thought some experiments I did looked decent with fiberfx swaying in the wind, the troublesome part is to cover large fields, and also to get flowers and non uniform strands in there perhaps..
advantages would be the actuall dynamic wind forces you can apply on gravity to make it sway very realistic over the whole grass area.

vonpietro
02-05-2015, 06:39 PM
if blender can output fbx - i dont think blender outputs directly to lightwave - WHY is that?

I think the secret to his success is his 49 variations.
in instancing you'd have 49 layers of instances.

I'm not sure how blender does it, but it looks like a grid of the objects is just applied to a particle field (so blender doesn't have instancing? anyone know?)

variation seems to be the key to photorealism, more than 10, more than 20 - he does 49, his results though are really amazing, so 49 seems to be the magic number. Plus weeds of course

shrox
02-05-2015, 07:30 PM
Maybe multiple sprite objects with various grass strand maps?

erikals
02-06-2015, 04:15 AM
i dont think blender outputs directly to lightwave
not sure, but there's a Blender plugin for it >
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?336749-The-LWO-import-export-project

safetyman
02-06-2015, 08:33 AM
Blender doesn't have instancing per se, but you can append objects created in another file to use as a type of instance, and without the overhead associated with multiple objects. Someone else could explain it better than I can, but it works quite well. Also, for the grass, you can create objects to use as particles, have multiple particle sets within the same object all with different attributes for virtually unlimited variation, and many other things that I've forgotten.

The same tools are used for hair; in fact, the "grass" particles in many cases is actually using the hair particle tools, which has sculpting and grooming functions too numerous to explain in a couple of sentences.

Also, Blender has improved FBX import/export and can import LWO files without too many problems.

Nicolas Jordan
02-06-2015, 08:37 AM
i could, but the problem is not GI, or GI splotching, but rather alias flickering...

Setting oversample to .5 or so might help with speed and flickering.

jboudreau
04-12-2015, 08:25 PM
Hi Guys

Has anyone tried the grass essentials pack from blender guru in lightwave and if so do you get the seperate 3d models and variations in the pack? What format are they in (obj, fbx etc.)

Trying to decide between the grass essentials and real grass pack. Not sure which one to go with. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks,
Jason

Lewis
04-13-2015, 07:01 AM
i could, but the problem is not GI, or GI splotching, but rather alias flickering...

Yes they could (and there is other grass models around available since before too) but it's no way that flexible/easy to use like that Gras pack has - you can just apply different settings/types of grass, increase patches, bald spots, ground, colors variation..... none of that is doable wizh LW instancing panel without tons and tons of manual work and in blender is just few mouse clicks/sliders.

So yeah it woudl be great to get some kind of such stuff in LW.

BTW this one looks gorgeous, Cycles render engine is really becoming nice
http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/1686/3854/original.jpg

Sanchon
04-13-2015, 07:26 AM
At the moment the only way to do this in instancer is by mix of procedural textures connected to weight and size using node editor. It can be done interactively driven by nulls or sliders. Settings can be exported to file using nodes export and imported again to another scene. Multiple Instancer per object can help in some situations.

3dhotshot
07-28-2019, 07:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th59rFCe4bk

uploader says this is fiber fx if so please xplain further

hrgiger
07-28-2019, 10:33 PM
This is the add on I use in Blender. You can paint your assets on surfaces, change the age of your plants, change the complexity of both the materials and the meshes, and there's a large amount of variations on the assets that come with them.

https://blendermarket.com/products/graswald


He even sells the asset library separately, so you could use them in LW or other applications. https://blendermarket.com/products/graswald---asset-library

Ma3rk
07-28-2019, 11:13 PM
This is the add on I use in Blender. You can paint your assets on surfaces, change the age of your plants, change the complexity of both the materials and the meshes, and there's a large amount of variations on the assets that come with them.

https://blendermarket.com/products/graswald


He even sells the asset library separately, so you could use them in LW or other applications. https://blendermarket.com/products/graswald---asset-library

And for 60 Bucks, it's almost a no brainer. Thanks for the update.

erikals
07-29-2019, 04:59 AM
This is the add on I use in Blender. You can paint your assets on surfaces, change the age of your plants, change the complexity of both the materials and the meshes, and there's a large amount of variations on the assets that come with them.

https://blendermarket.com/products/graswald


He even sells the asset library separately, so you could use them in LW or other applications. https://blendermarket.com/products/graswald---asset-library


Nice, kind of like Advanced Placement.

3dhotshot
07-29-2019, 09:41 AM
meanwhile I installed blender .... 2.8 Eevee is really fast !

Dan Ritchie
07-29-2019, 09:44 AM
This was LW 2018, so it'd be interesting to see how the new renderer would handle the scene.

145646

3dhotshot
07-29-2019, 09:47 AM
Is this really Fiber FX ? >> https://youtu.be/th59rFCe4bk

prometheus
07-29-2019, 10:34 AM
Is this really Fiber FX ? >> https://youtu.be/th59rFCe4bk

Itīs just modelled with fiberfx module in modeler, which turns it to polygons once dropped, so it isnīt the layout fiberfx direct fiber rendering if thatīs what you thought.

In modeler you increase fiber sides sides, set random length, perhaps some gravity and increase edge quantity so any curved or bend blade look smooth.

but you can just model one blade or two and distribute.

So what you see is just instanced polygon patches in layout that is rendered, not a fiberfx render.

erikals
07-29-2019, 10:46 AM
Is this really Fiber FX ? >> https://youtu.be/th59rFCe4bk

should be no problem getting that quality with LW2018, since FiberFX in 2018 is "true" geometry.

personally i prefer .lwo instances.


2.8 Eevee is really fast !
yep.  https://i.imgur.com/bcwLfNX.gif

Ma3rk
07-29-2019, 10:51 AM
I just tried to purchase the assets but the PayPal link isn't working. Had that issue with XFrog as well.

erikals
07-29-2019, 11:02 AM
think you'd have to contact PayPal,

seems the problem is with them, since both sites won't work.

[guessing though]

3dhotshot
07-29-2019, 12:05 PM
Itīs just modelled with fiberfx module in modeler, which turns it to polygons once dropped, so it isnīt the layout fiberfx direct fiber rendering if thatīs what you thought.

In modeler you increase fiber sides sides, set random length, perhaps some gravity and increase edge quantity so any curved or bend blade look smooth.

but you can just model one blade or two and distribute.

So what you see is just instanced polygon patches in layout that is rendered, not a fiberfx render.

--------------------------------------->> great Thank you for answering my question on ffx !

Since we are on this subject JPierce workflow on C4D / Octane >>


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhyU8qk1qeM

Ma3rk
07-29-2019, 03:02 PM
think you'd have to contact PayPal,

seems the problem is with them, since both sites won't work.

[guessing though]

Nah, got it sorted out. Ad Blocker.

Going through the assets now in fact.

erikals
07-29-2019, 03:47 PM
Ad Blocker? Wow, wouldn't have thought it was due to that.  https://i.imgur.com/bcwLfNX.gif
Good to know.

Ma3rk
07-29-2019, 04:07 PM
Ad Blocker? Wow, wouldn't have thought it was due to that.  https://i.imgur.com/bcwLfNX.gif
Good to know.

Ya, as I've a number of other sites I purchase from that I never even think about it.

BTW, conversion of these has been extremely easy. For any given fbx set, there may be 20-30 plant variations, but there are really only 3 maps to deal with. There's a med rez variation and an old version of the color. I couldn't use the OD Tool in automagic mode due to the maps naming, but it's pretty easy to paste in three maps. After that, I do some tweeks such as add an invert node off the color luma for roughness, turn up the Normal value to 100%, set the object to double sided and Thin so Translucency works. Once I got the first plant looking proper, just copy & paste to all surfaces. Bang, a whole patch of weeds or whatever.

erikals
07-29-2019, 06:13 PM
Nice, thanks for the tips!  https://i.imgur.com/tJGL61i.png

i've been looking at Blender Grass Essentials also. Not sure if i'll get that one, or this one. OR both.  https://i.imgur.com/bcwLfNX.gif

er shall see. https://i.imgur.com/ZZKGL9M.gif

Ma3rk
07-30-2019, 12:13 AM
Ya. Daz is like that. Put something on the wish list mostly for future reference and then JEEZ! they're dangling a 60% off at me. Ya, well, I could make that on my own, maybe, but not in less than two weeks & certainly not for $13.47 or such!

Getting back to the grass though, wish this collection had be around 6 months ago, but so it goes. I might re-re-visit my Western town but here's where I last left it with instanced items:

145649

Philbert
07-30-2019, 01:39 AM
Grass is one of the first things I did with instancing. I modeled a small patch of grass. Maybe 1' x 1' and instanced that but also used a grass texture under it to fill in the gaps. I was under the impression that instances add no render time but honestly I barely see a difference.

erikals
07-30-2019, 05:25 AM
in regards to Graswald vs Grass Essentials >

https://blenderartists.org/t/graswald/678219/253


Graswald is the way. http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/family/t1045.gif

prometheus
07-30-2019, 06:44 AM
Seems we have been entering a phase of no need too create by your own-use pre-made real life assets.
Why model humans when we can get more realistic scans, while model rocks and stones or grass when we can have real ones in there, it sort of avoids the job of making things..which requires a lot of skills for a certain asset, and takes a lot of time..and in the end not as realistic as a scanned version, so unless it is a skill verification for something the industry do not really need..and when prices are low enough, just buy the darn things and put the scene together.


Humans we got scanned, stones, rockīs and gras, megascans etc.
Monsters and cars will still rely on somone modeling it perhaps :)

Next input for Lightwave will be an audio recognizable button..recognizing make a car/type lambourghini, then lightwave will start browsing image references online for cars of that type and the algorithms kicks in and start to model the car by itself.

But initial starting ref will probably, make a duck..I am sure someone can write a modeling tool which does create a duck based on some reference images.

SteveH
07-30-2019, 07:09 AM
Lightwave had that awesome eagle in a barrel plugin so long ago. Cutting edge! ;- )

erikals
07-30-2019, 10:05 AM
Seems we have been entering a phase of no need too create by your own-use pre-made real life assets.
Why model humans when we can get more realistic scans, while model rocks and stones or grass when we can have real ones in there, it sort of avoids the job of making things..which requires a lot of skills for a certain asset, and takes a lot of time..and in the end not as realistic as a scanned version, so unless it is a skill verification for something the industry do not really need..and when prices are low enough, just buy the darn things and put the scene together.

This icon is tweaked, it now looks slightly more "modern"

https://i.imgur.com/KTMdloi.gif

So is it mine? No
Does it belong to someone out there? Yep
However, the remaining 20% of that design is made by me.
And maybe it has already been tweaked a further 40% earlier on by others.

Point is, nothing is 100% sacred. And everything has a beginning.

How much did Elvis copy? Lots.

https://i.imgur.com/hMXiRj7.gif   <---- 15% mine.


I am sure someone can write a modeling tool which does create a duck based on some reference images.
It will come, sooner than you think.

https://i.imgur.com/BYFz23S.gif

erikals
07-30-2019, 03:13 PM
to add... "Monkey see... Monkey do..."

https://i.imgur.com/h1Ty1f2.gif

Free4Ever
07-30-2019, 03:25 PM
There already is an AI powered "render button" based on a simple sketch:
https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/19/18272602/ai-art-generation-gan-nvidia-doodle-landscapes

Ask nvidia to add ducks and monkeys and off you go...

erikals
07-30-2019, 04:29 PM
damn, that's cool.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=p5U4NgVGAwg

erikals
07-30-2019, 05:28 PM
bit of topic here, but looking forward to Rotobot >
https://www.fxguide.com/quicktakes/rotobot-bringing-machine-learning-to-roto

https://i1.wp.com/thevirtualassist.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/roto-deep-learning-machine-language.jpg

Ma3rk
07-31-2019, 12:08 AM
Lightwave had that awesome eagle in a barrel plugin so long ago. Cutting edge! ;- )

Ya can never go back home ...

Philbert
07-31-2019, 02:26 AM
There already is an AI powered "render button" based on a simple sketch:
https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/19/18272602/ai-art-generation-gan-nvidia-doodle-landscapes

Ask nvidia to add ducks and monkeys and off you go...

I just saw this posted on Twitter. It looks really cool, I'd love to try it.