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madno
01-24-2015, 01:07 PM
Hi,

I modeled a kind of cell net structure. It was made using box modeling and sub-d:
A sphere -> extruding a polygon -> connecting to next sphere -> copy / pasting those -> rotating moving them -> connecting again -> and so on and so forth. It took ages.

126656 126657

Can you recomment a workflow that allows to create such kind of structure faster and even makes it dynamic for later design changes?
With my box modeling aproach I shot myself in the knee, because I can't change the net layout without starting from scratch more or less.

I am hoping for a way to only make connection lines and knots in Modeler. In Layout then they should become the final organic net shape. In a perfect world it would be possible to move a knot in Layout and the connections to the other knots follow this dynamically.

I am thinking about something with lines, curves or so in Modeler and then Hypervoxels in Layout. But I don't know how to start. There are splines, curves, two point polys and what not.

Maybe somebody knows a tutorial for such kind of stuff. Free or commercial ones would be fine.

It is for something like the imeage below (I know, does not look so good, but have not tried much with volumetrics).

126655

Forgot to say, not yet thinking about animation (no time watch the RHA videos).

jeric_synergy
01-24-2015, 01:11 PM
Cody did a tutorial on EXACTLY this effect, it's on the LW3dG website.

I did a riff on his tutorial, allowing exact controllable placement of the nodes, using bones. I think it's on here somewhere, Search on "sparse network".

pinkmouse
01-24-2015, 03:19 PM
And my version, using a method very similar to Cody's, though I hadn't seen his tute when I did it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHkumO71Z8Y

shrox
01-24-2015, 04:05 PM
I did something similar using bones at each "node" for an animation, this would lend itself to changes later too.

jeric_synergy
01-24-2015, 05:04 PM
And my version, using a method very similar to Cody's, though I hadn't seen his tute when I did it:
Yours looks a thousand times more interesting than mine due to interesting surfaces..... I h8 U. ;)

+++++++++

I did something similar using bones at each "node" for an animation, this would lend itself to changes later too.
Same here: Cody's technique is a good starting place, but INEVITABLY some g.d. art director is going to demand a node hit a specific screen location, and IIRC his was not amenable to such control. Might as well build the control in at the start.

pinkmouse
01-24-2015, 05:44 PM
There you go Madno, lots of ideas to try! :)

JS, it's amazing what you can do with EEGritnode. ;)

madno
01-25-2015, 03:08 AM
Thanks guys,

to jeric,
I found the link to your tut (https://vimeo.com/97086056), but it says the video is not available. Maybe you have another link?

jeric_synergy
01-25-2015, 09:24 AM
Huh, don't know what happened there (do Vimeos evaporate??), but believe me, Pinkmouse's is both pretty much the same and far better at the same time.

FWIW, here's a Package that should work: 126671

prometheus
01-25-2015, 10:39 AM
cody´s tutorial is nice, but I would like to point out a little faster workflow in the beginning, it isn´t necessary to paste the edges on another layer, then having to go back to the first layer and delete that, then having to go to the second layer and cut it and then back to the first layer in order to paste it on to the first layer.....that is a lot of unnecessary steps.

It should be enough to just copy the geometry in edge mode, then directly delete the geometry and paste in the edges in the same layer.

madno
01-26-2015, 09:16 AM
Working on it now. Jeric, thanks for the scene.

MonroePoteet
01-28-2015, 09:51 PM
If you don't mind kind of funky edges, you can generate a node network very quickly by jittering (J) a sudivided tesellated sphere, copy & paste the edges (deleting the polys), then use PointClonePlus to clone node objects and bones (skelegons) for each node. To "thicken" the edges, they can be Extruded (E) three separate times, once in X, then in Y, then in Z. As I said, the edge geometry is a little wierd, but it subpatches OK, and adds some interesting effects if you use FastFresnel, EdgeTransparency, or other edge-highlighting surface shaders.


mTp

madno
01-29-2015, 07:51 AM
Hi thanks for this tip.

I tried everything mentioned here. It worked.

But the final goal was, to create the organic look of the structure.
There I failed. I could not find a way to keep the single points connected via lines and give that an organic look. I tried with Hypervoxels but got only bad results. There might be new threads from me asking how this can be done in LW (or what other software I should use instead). Hope you don't mind.

126735

The missing "see through refraction" is on purpose but I am not happy with the hard sun reflection. Need to change that.

MonroePoteet
01-30-2015, 08:12 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by "organic", but you might just play with bump map, textured displacement maps (or enable bump on the displacement page), and jitter your model a bit. You can reduce the hard sun reflection by reducing the specularity or glossiness. A good place to start might be to get into the Surface Editor (F5), select the surface for your network, press F8 to bring up the presets page, pull down the Built-in menu to select the Organic types, and load up some of the presets to see if any of them meet your needs (e.g. tongue, lizard skin, etc.). Then, look at the parameters on the Surface editor to see how ones that you like are done (be sure to look in the Shaders tab for advanced shaders).

As you probably know, VPR doesn't show all the shaders, so you'll want to do a render to see what the presets actually look like.

mTp

MonroePoteet
01-30-2015, 09:34 AM
For example, here's a quicky node network with a modification of the Tongue preset.

mTp

jeric_synergy
01-30-2015, 10:24 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by "organic",
Post #12 includes a photo.

The original technique is aimed at a mechanical look, tinker-toy style. To preserve the soft chamfers/fillets (I can never remember which is which) in the example jpg, I think you could use the same concepts BUT all displacement distortion would be done with Bones. My technique eventually uses Bones to achieve precise location of individual nodes, so maybe it'll still work here (I really don't remember).

I usually obsess a bit more than I should over bone influence, so give it a shot with just the default influences-- they almost always work better than I expect them to.

JoePoe
01-30-2015, 03:07 PM
More Organic...
So... are you looking for only a nodal/layout solution to the 2 point poly and instance method?

I can understand that initially trying to model the structure was a huge time suck....
But what if there was a quick(er) modeling solution?

I did this in just a few minutes. With a little more effort and attention to detail (I think I went overboard on jitter) you can get a bunch closer to the original.
Let me know if it's an option and I'll post a breakdown.

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jeric_synergy
01-31-2015, 02:32 AM
..... and I'll post a breakdown.
126755
Heck, I'd like to read that.

MonroePoteet
01-31-2015, 04:00 AM
Let me know if it's an option and I'll post a breakdown.
126755

Me, too.

mTp

madno
01-31-2015, 04:23 AM
More Organic...
So... are you looking for only a nodal/layout solution to the 2 point poly and instance method?

I can understand that initially trying to model the structure was a huge time suck....
But what if there was a quick(er) modeling solution?

I did this in just a few minutes. With a little more effort and attention to detail (I think I went overboard on jitter) you can get a bunch closer to the original.
Let me know if it's an option and I'll post a breakdown.



JowePoe, are you kidding?
I would love to read your breakdown, even if would have never started this thread and would have never tried to model a network.

madno
02-01-2015, 05:23 AM
I tried more and more, but in the end the only way for me to achieve this "pulled chewing gum look" is to model it piece by piece.
I am am really looking forward to your breakdown JoePoe.

jeric_synergy
02-01-2015, 11:13 AM
Anxiously awaiting that breakdown, but my GUESS is one could use BRIDGE to great effect:

make some low-poly "Balls".
Array up a matrix,
choose polys and Bridge. (This is a good time to assign/memorize a hotkey for Bridge.)
A clever person could also use Mirror to save clicks. (To add apparent complexity.)
Then turn on Subds,
and use MOVE: POINT RADIAL (I think) to drag the nodes into a less mechanical arrangement,

and WALLAGH! Organic network.

JoePoe
02-01-2015, 01:45 PM
Didn't use bridge once :hey:

I've made a video on process one (there is a second version... I'll make that later).
It's my first video tut.... so it's horrible. It's really hard to talk and model at the same time ;D.
Anyway, without my blathering the whole process can't be more than 5-10 minutes (depending on geometry complexity of course).

It's uploading to Youtube now.

A little teaser while you wait....
The tut doesn't go into layout/surfacing. This was just an experiment.

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m.d.
02-01-2015, 02:11 PM
nice.....
looking forward to seeing it

jeric_synergy
02-01-2015, 04:07 PM
Didn't use bridge once :hey:
....migawd, I hate you. ;)

Just kidding, looks great, looking forward to any hints on HOW.

The envy, it BURNS!!! :D

JoePoe
02-01-2015, 10:18 PM
Don't say I didn't warn you...... :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2emIdQlPuUA

madno
02-02-2015, 12:56 AM
:bowdown: :) :p

Yes, yes, yes, great !!!!

Thanks man.

The best start for a Monday morning. Even better than the first cup of coffee (which means a lot for me, as my body refuses to work if don't fill it up with caffeine).

MonroePoteet
02-02-2015, 03:04 AM
Excellent! Brilliant use of selection sets, parts, etc. Nicely done!

mTp

PeT
02-02-2015, 06:39 AM
at the moment I'm testing .. an alternative workflow :

- make an object
- jitter it
- go edge mode
- chamfer
- enter
- selection switch to poly
- subdivide this big selected polys one time (only to generate some edge points)
- hit DEL (delete all this selected polys)
- open point statistics ('w')
- select all points under '1 polygons'
- press 'l' to connect these point pairs
- make a point selection set 'Middle-Points-Group)
- deselect all
- use thicken tool (1 segment / contour)
- important : the thickened object geometry then should be quadratic
- press enter
- TAB for subpatch
- open point statistics (w)
- select the point set 'Middle-Points-Group'
- switch .. point selection to edge selection
- select loop
- make a new point selection set 'Middle-Loop-Group'
- use Point Normal Move for adjusting the thicknes of this middle pipes

- one last task : to thicken the 'knots' .. I must oversleep that ;)

JoePoe
02-02-2015, 08:34 AM
Right on right on. Glad you guys liked it. :)

and PeT..... first of all thank you. I could not for the life of me think of the word "knot" :D..... I must be nuts.

But also, nice alternative. As always, there are many ways to skin a cat (I probably shouldn't use that phrase in these forums :devil: :)).
I would just add in the second subdivide after the creation of the middle points.

So....

Subdivide just the side panels 126809

Connect ("l") the one poly points 126810 (save that middle set ..... That's the foresight I was talking about :thumbsup:)

Subdivide again... on the web this time 126812

jeric_synergy
02-02-2015, 10:28 AM
Excellent work, JoePoe, and nice use of existing, olde-school tools that have become a bit neglected in discussion-- but maybe I'm just projecting. Hadn't used Subdivide here in a long time. Good reminder.

jeric_synergy
02-02-2015, 11:35 AM
One of the things this video reinforced for me was the need for a REALLY quick way to create and access (Point) Selection Sets, even faster than what we have.

#aflw, but IIRC there's no "one-button" create. I think a "MAKE AUTO SET" with the default name of "Auto (n)" could be useful, IF there was enough speed, random access to the sets so users could see rilly rilly fast the contents of each set. If you can see them fast enough, names (which of course ARE nice) become less important.

This would be in addition to the current method of creating/accessing sets.

For the ACCESS side, I'd very much like to see a persistent list panel that would allow users to select a Set with one click. This business of going thru the Stats panel is ridiculously slow. (Same for Parts.)

jwiede
02-02-2015, 01:09 PM
This business of going thru the Stats panel is ridiculously slow. (Same for Parts.)

QFA. Both Part and Selection Set handling is painfully slow as currently managed, esp. if you have a bunch of similarly-named entities you need to differentiate. Ideal would include some kind of pre-highlighting on object as preview of selection set or part being hovered over in list, native multi-select (showing union of pre-highlighting as described), bulk rename, etc.

jeric_synergy
02-02-2015, 11:17 PM
AND I'd like a pair of gossamer wings.

PeT
02-03-2015, 01:53 AM
.. As always, there are many ways to skin a cat
..
I would just add in the second subdivide after the creation of the middle points.
OK JoePoe ..

:)

http://www.rendering.de/?p=6393

JoePoe
02-03-2015, 09:17 AM
:)

http://www.rendering.de/?p=6393

Hey ... Cool :) !!

Thanks


.... I've been playing a bit more. I realized that we can keep that extra geometry from a second subdivide! In fact it helps set up control loops in tight to the knot areas. This makes it possible to have more spherical knots.
After the second divide just expand the poly selection one time from the main panels to include the first step of the web surface and delete.
I'm kinda diggin' the "fleshy" folds and wrinkles in this one.

126865

there are two extra control loops on each arm here.

126866

Scazzino
06-12-2015, 10:40 AM
Looks like it's coming along. Not sure if this will help but if you can calculate the positions and rotations for the elements you can create a massive lattice structure using instances.

A while ago I did a similar 3D cellular type lattice structure using instances. There's a chapter about it in my book. A number of the pages are viewable on Amazon if you go to the book link on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0763782645?ie=UTF8&tag=telebitescom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0763782645), click "Look Inside" and search for "Instance Generator".

Then I made little Autiton™ robots walking throughout all the branches using recursive instancing, resulting in over a million and a half walking robots inside the massive structure. All with instances.
1.5 million sleepwalkers - http://theautitonarchives.com/turning-loose-1-5-million-autiton-sleepwalkers/#more-466

jeric_synergy
06-12-2015, 12:53 PM
JoePoe, did you ever submit this object for the CRASH ON EDGE DELETE situation?

( 'cuz it's bloody annoying, innit? )

prometheus
06-13-2015, 11:38 AM
I wish metaballs/metaedges was enhancent to work more dynamicly and with quads, these kind of structures would be easy as pie to "model" if it was, in fact I wouldn´t call it model, you would simply just convert edges to meshes in on go.

Here I copied edges from a sphere and pasted to another layer, then converted to metaedges, with right metaball resolution,size and influence..you have your mesh ready, though it would be dense..final results is freezed and reduced with polyreduction and merging of triangles, and finally a subdiv with metaform.
The edge "skeleton" will still be there to serve as guide links in layout maybe.

Though for better strict polycontrol, the modeling guidelines presented by others here might be better..though it takes time to model, if metaedges were to be improved and to work similar to something like David Ikedas new mesh skeleton tools, then it would be awesome.

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Michael

jeric_synergy
06-13-2015, 03:07 PM
I'm amazed someone found a use for metaedges.

prometheus
06-13-2015, 04:21 PM
I'm amazed someone found a use for metaedges.


It may still be a little of a Good use question, how to use metaedges is a bit tricky in the workflow...and you always have to remesh the freezed result with reduce poly and merge triangles, the not so long ago new feature of copy and paste edges and create/polygons/line pen...has made it easier to layout edges or copy edges and layout the skeleton structure, then there is a bit tricky to select metaedges..which is required in order to edit them, and for that you have to switch from edge mode to poly mode and enter the statistics panel and select metaballs....and set from there set the proper scale and influence,.
you also have to set a decent resolution which is in the general tab, I wish it could be consolidated within edit metaballs/edges so you can directly change and set it from there, then it would need a way to quad everything dynamicly.

You can with metaedges create really cool structures when you layout simple edges from geometry or from scratch or even from curves once curves are converted to polylines, all the model construction structure and deformation takes place on the skeleton/edges which means it wont screw up deform
the final mesh, since you are working on the first level...and only finalize the mesh construction and finally convert to metaedges...here´s some old samples on youtube, showcasing some basics...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf4wM-UFaQA

prometheus
06-13-2015, 04:24 PM
And one more...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVvHeAu90TU

As mentioned, David Ikeda seem to have something along the line of what I want with a base skeleton that converts to mesh in his new modeling app.
if someone pulls this of within lightwave or perhaps ikeda app, it would be a very nice tool to use for creating organic structures..and cool stuff to print out in 3d.
if we also could get a sort of L-system creation where we could set the rules with maths and grow cool structures..that would be sweet to.

or maybe dpon´t could construct a system similar to dp verdure tree´s..but creating polymeshes based on any edge construction instead of just a tree generator.

All this would make modeling processes of advanced structures very easy.
I think it is possible to also use particles and a special plugin that converts particle paths to polylines, and import to modeler, so you can convert the particle paths to metaedges and from there create a mesh, which ultimatly is designed based on particles vector path.

erikals
06-13-2015, 06:30 PM
very nice Joe and Ivarsson http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

maybe Mesh Fusion could be used too... ?
https://youtu.be/8_sU7HrtuMY

prometheus
06-13-2015, 07:11 PM
very nice Joe and Ivarsson http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

maybe Mesh Fusion could be used too... ?
https://youtu.be/8_sU7HrtuMY

Yup, if I could have mesh fusion and a metaedges tool enhancement as Ivé spoken about, that would be uber Awesome to work with for fantastic easy shape creation.