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View Full Version : Layered model completely out of alignment! What happened!?!



Paul_Boland
01-22-2015, 06:09 PM
Hi Folks.

This is a model of a creature claw I'm working on. I spent hours setting this all up and parenting it all together with null points. I saved it the other night. I loaded it up now and it's completely out of alignment in Layout but still fine in Modeller. What is going on!?!? Is there any way to restore it in Layout?

126636

spherical
01-22-2015, 06:24 PM
Did you move Pivots?

Paul_Boland
01-22-2015, 06:28 PM
On each layer I positioned the pivots where I wanted them for that part of the model.

spherical
01-22-2015, 06:35 PM
Yep. Layout doesn't understand that the pivots have moved. I was developing an architectural model for NASA and every time I opened the model in Layout, the doors flew all over the place. Moving the pivots in LW 9.6 Layout was really slow, so tried moving in Modeler. Don't know if 11.x or 2015 Layouts are better now. Finally dropped that method, left the pivots alone and only parented to nulls; which you said you were doing.

djwaterman
01-22-2015, 07:35 PM
That shouldn't happen, Layout should save any pivot point re-positioning. I've never had this problem on any of the versions I've used. Or did you mean you moved the pivots in Modeler?

Sensei
01-23-2015, 12:37 AM
IMHO pivots must be set prior any Layout work.

Once you will use Load Object, or Send Object To Layout, pivots are read, and now becoming part of LWS file.
They're rows f.e. "PivotPosition 3.55 0 1.85"
Search for them in text editor.
You might change values.

Mastoy
01-23-2015, 01:09 AM
In Layout, select your objects, and click on "Move Pivot" in the "Modify" tab.
Then click on "Reset -> Reset" (still in the "Modify" tab) ans see if it does something
Doing this will look for the pivot of an object in Modeler, and replace it in Layout.
Also make sure that your objects are all at position/rotation 0,0,0

Lewis
01-23-2015, 01:10 AM
You must rested pivots in layout if you changed them in modeler after you created scene. Layout saves pivot positions with *.LWS so you have to reset them for layout to update on new pivots.

magiclight
01-23-2015, 01:16 AM
Yeah, not sure if it helps but the manual (2015) say:


Setting the pivot point in Modeler saves its position in the object file. Setting it in Layout only saves
the data in the scene file. As such, it is usually best to set your pivot point position in Modeler.

Look like the pivot point is saved in two places, and that is never good so changing it in modeler after changing it in layout look like a bad idea,
Layout will use the one in the scene file I guess.

Don't mean to hijack anything but a stupid question from a rookie, how do you "reset" the pivot points in layout, is there a way to delete them from layout so it will go back to the ones in the object file ?

Sensei
01-23-2015, 01:26 AM
Don't mean to hijack anything but a stupid question from a rookie, how do you "reset" the pivot points in layout, is there a way to delete them from layout so it will go back to the ones in the object file ?

Try, Modify > Move Pivot, then Reset below.

Paul_Boland
01-23-2015, 12:40 PM
Thanks for all the replies. I created the model in Modeller (obviously :) ) and moved the pivot for each layer in Modeller. Loaded the model into Layout, set up null points for rigging each layer, and using the Motion panel I parented layer parts to null points and set constraints on movements and all was good. Saved the work and went to bed. Two days later came back to it, loaded it up, and the above mess is what I got.

I will try and sort all this out and see what I can do. Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

jeric_synergy
01-23-2015, 01:46 PM
I'm watching this thread, 'cuz this seems very confusing and a real possible point of screwup-generation.

Someone above said it well: saving data in 2 places seems to be a bad idea. This is similar to the "add a layer after you've loaded the object" problem, which seems(?) solved now, but bit me repeatedly once upon a time.

spherical
01-23-2015, 03:55 PM
What everyone is describing is not what happened with my first encounter with this. Things have probably changed by now. The pivots were moved in Modeler prior to loading in Layout, so they should have been read. Only tried moving them in Layout, using a scene copy as a debugging step, and abandoned that approach, due to the molasses speed. The Reset in Layout would have cured the issue, had I known about it at the time. Thanks for the tip for future projects. I'd have more hair now if I had known that would fix it.

bobakabob
01-23-2015, 05:20 PM
Very helpful thread. Just recently I edited pivots in a layered object in Modeler but couldn't figure out why they weren't updating in Layout.

Clearing out the objects in the scene and reloading sorted it... I wasn't aware of "Reset" in Layout. You learn something everyday.

Sensei
01-23-2015, 05:38 PM
Very helpful thread. Just recently I edited pivots in a layered object in Modeler but couldn't figure out why they weren't updating in Layout.

Can be done 3rd party plugin..

Paul_Boland
01-23-2015, 07:10 PM
Ok, new problem... I got my model back to normal in Layout by repositioning the pivots in Modeller to the centre of the model. I then positions nulls at the object sections and using the Motion panel I parented each layer section to a null. However, the parts sticking out at a 60degree angel, when I went to move then by rotating the null, the null suddenly jumped from its angle of 60degrees to a fixed angle in line with the base of the model. Any ideas on how to stop this from happening?

Paul_Boland
01-23-2015, 08:20 PM
Can anyone give me an idea of what would be the best way to rig this model since pivots and nulls don't seem to want to work :(. I'm reading up on Bones in the Lightwave manual and I'm not sure they are what I need, I've never used them before.

Sensei
01-23-2015, 08:23 PM
Bones are rather for organic stuff.
You have disconnected parts, in separate layers. Doesn't look to me organic.
You would have to make it one layer.
Otherwise use of bones won't have too much sense.

Surrealist.
01-23-2015, 08:47 PM
Solution1:

Put it all in one layer. Create bones in Modeler and give them names, associated with the parts. Set the pivots of the Skellegons where you want them.

Use the Bone Weights tool to automatically create weightmap names the same as the bones and choose 0 as the value.

Then with set map value edit the maps to be 100 percent to the bone you want for each part.

Now send it to layout and rig it.

Solution 2:

Keep the parts in separate layers.

Nevermind about pivots.

2A Rig it all by parenting to a hierarchy of nulls. Never touch nor animate or use the mesh. Set up all constraints on the nulls.

This allows you to make modifications to the mesh without destroying your set up.

2B Do the same with a rig of bones.

Solution 3:

Don't send you object to Layout at all from Modeler. Save it with all of your pivots in place for each layer.

Open it in Layout and rig the mesh with constraints.

Not sure how Genoma works in this context but that might be a solution too.

RebelHill
01-23-2015, 08:47 PM
Just use bones... all this messing with moved pivots and separate objects is a waste and causes more issues than it solves. Just use bones for everything like this.

Kryslin
01-23-2015, 10:14 PM
I would go with bones and weight maps; Give each part a weight map, and put skelegons where you need hinges, arms, and so on. Works best if you have everything in one layer, but it doesn't need to be; You can use "Use bones from" under bone properties to use bones from another layer of the model...

Paul_Boland
01-24-2015, 04:44 PM
Thanks for the feedback. I've never used bones before so I'm going to have to read up on them. It's a shame my angled nulls are not retaining the angle I set them at. I have rigged stuff like this before but they were simple rigs.

Paul_Boland
01-25-2015, 04:55 PM
I had a thought today. The model I created, even though a monster claw, is really designed like a robotic model. Think of the robotic arm models we see out there, such as the one in the new Lightwave 2015 movie showing the new parenting tool in action. How exactly is that model rigged? It is made up of parts that don't bend and deform organically. An approach to rigging that would work for my claw.

RebelHill
01-25-2015, 06:07 PM
Just weight each part and assign it its own bone.

Surrealist.
01-25-2015, 08:17 PM
I had a thought today. The model I created, even though a monster claw, is really designed like a robotic model. Think of the robotic arm models we see out there, such as the one in the new Lightwave 2015 movie showing the new parenting tool in action. How exactly is that model rigged? It is made up of parts that don't bend and deform organically. An approach to rigging that would work for my claw.

If as you say you are not that familiar with bones then it is safe to say you are not familiar with rigging in LW. In that case the bone solution requires you to roll up your sleeves and do some tutorials as well as read the manual. And in general it may be the problems you are having with the other solutions are the same problem. Not being familiar with parenting and constraints.

Assuming you know these things cold, there are two basic solutions to a rig for something mechanical. One is to use objects and nulls with parenting or constraints and so on. Another is to use a bone rig with each mechanical part weighed 100 percent to one bone with the bone pivot lined up to the pivot of the mechanical part.

Check out some of RH links.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTds3QePYrWEWipwKkLmyNT4Tf_JTigM2

Any other basic tuts you can find on rigging.

To set up you rig is fairly simple it is just that you kind of need to be schooled in all of the issues that will pop up.