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brent3d
01-17-2015, 12:12 PM
A comparison of LW Brush by 3rd Powers against Modo's mesh sculpt tools. http://www.3rdpowers.com/index.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3XA4dykW3g

gerry_g
01-17-2015, 01:51 PM
yes native sculpting and painting and baking would be great but what binds those three properties together is mapping without a robust uv system in place they're not really a whole lot, so why buy this if it is not at the very least able to replace 3D Coat let alone Modo, don't get me wrong LW 2015 is a great buy and I'm saying this as some one who owns both 2015 and Modo 801, but the bottom line is LW's achilles heal has always been piss poor uv mapping, yeah I can do all this sculpting and whatever but oh wait I need to sort out my uv's, time to fire up Modo, 3D Goat, some thing anything but not LW

prometheus
01-17-2015, 02:15 PM
I didnīt feel this was a fair comparison, where the differences shows properly..the modo steal of lightwave code ranting was just too much to listen to in this.
It sort of failed to showcase what you can do with modo sculpting and not in lightwave, and went biased on how much better better lw brush worked.
There are things you can do in modo sculpting but not in lightwave...that didnīt came across.

Though lw brush seems nice...I still need a layout tool, working in realtime with symmetry too...no after fix sym, even if that helps out, lw brush is a nice addition indeed.

Thanks to brent anyway for attempting to showcase the differences..in his way :)


Michael

raw-m
01-17-2015, 03:30 PM
More rant than demo but I still found it very entertaining!

jasonwestmas
01-17-2015, 03:42 PM
I gave you my own rant on you tube but I think what would greatly improve a rant like this would be to be fair about the pipeline context. What I see in this CG industry as a whole is that there are three general contexts to consider when choosing an application or suite to use that best serves you as an individual.

-) There is a pre-production phase which require tool-sets that are much more about planning the overall scope of a project; fast interaction; making many changes and requires less accuracy in a lot of cases especially for animation concepts/ storyboards and animatics. The concepts will eventually become solid pieces but not for a while.

-) The production phase is the time when things need to be nailed down conceptually and flexibility is harder to come by. This is highly dependent on the pipeline where there is less room for big general changes and much more room for detailed texture maps, perfect topology/UVs, extremely heavy rigs (if needed), complex shading/texture networks and a clear vision for the final product as the technical complexity becomes more heavy.

-) The Post production phase somewhat overlaps the production phase in order to make sure production is adhering to the script or gamedoc and Pre-production activities. This is the time to start assembling game levels, animated bits, film clips and adjusting things to complete the project and make the necessary tweaks reflect the original dream/plan/ concept/animatic as much as possible.

I strongly believe that each application or suite of tools fits into one of these categories better than the other. If someone feels like they need to rant constantly about their own application then I think they might be using the wrong one or the company doesn't understand the software they are developing. OR they should consider using multiple applications/ toolsets for different periods throughout the pipeline.

ericsmith
01-17-2015, 06:51 PM
I don't currently have any screen capture software installed, so I can't make my own video comparison at the moment, but I'd like to point out an aspect of LW brush that's getting overlooked in these discussions.

In the Grab tool, there's a "maintain surf detail" checkbox, along with a stiffness slider. When this checkbox is enabled, it's like working with an interactive soft body/cloth simulation, where pushing the surface around affects the surrounding mesh to maintain the shape structure and reduce having the mesh cross over itself. This, as far as I know, is not something that you'll not see in modo, 3d coat, or zbrush.

And it's REALLY cool.

The slide tool has a similar option (at least under the hood) called "make wrinkles". when you push on the surface, it makes it wrinkle up just like if you were pushing cloth around.

One of the things about 3d modeling software in general is that polys are just virtual surfaces that connect points in space. modeling/sculpting is nothing like working with clay or plasticine in the real world. Volume/mass in not conserved, and the rules of physics just don't exist. In some ways, this may be good, but in others, it makes the task much harder (or at least labor intensive) than working in the real world with real materials.

What I like about LW brush is that it's nudging the process of modeling in this direction. It may not be perfect at it in all cases, but it's the only modeling tool I've seen that even attempts to do what it does.

Eric

jasonwestmas
01-17-2015, 08:29 PM
oh I definitely noticed those features ericsmith. :)

jboudreau
01-17-2015, 09:24 PM
A comparison of LW Brush by 3rd Powers against Modo's mesh sculpt tools. http://www.3rdpowers.com/index.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3XA4dykW3g

OMG THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, FINALLY!!

It's about time I finally see someone say that Modo is lightwave no matter how hard they try to hide the code etc. As soon as I seen Modo and tried using it, I had no problem at all using it because like you showed here on the video most of the commands, functions etc are the same as lightwaves. This is why I never understood how the modo community can bash lightwave since they are using basically the same architecture. It's so obvious they completely ripped off lightwave and just made some modifications to it. I mean seriously there subpatch system is exactly the same as lightwaves because it is lightwaves subpatch system right down to the TAB hot key.

Thanks
Jason

brent3d
01-17-2015, 10:13 PM
I gave you my own rant on you tube but I think what would greatly improve a rant like this would be to be fair about the pipeline context. What I see in this CG industry as a whole is that there are three general contexts to consider when choosing an application or suite to use that best serves you as an individual.

-) There is a pre-production phase which require tool-sets that are much more about planning the overall scope of a project; fast interaction; making many changes and requires less accuracy in a lot of cases especially for animation concepts/ storyboards and animatics. The concepts will eventually become solid pieces but not for a while.

-) The production phase is the time when things need to be nailed down conceptually and flexibility is harder to come by. This is highly dependent on the pipeline where there is less room for big general changes and much more room for detailed texture maps, perfect topology/UVs, extremely heavy rigs (if needed), complex shading/texture networks and a clear vision for the final product as the technical complexity becomes more heavy.

-) The Post production phase somewhat overlaps the production phase in order to make sure production is adhering to the script or gamedoc and Pre-production activities. This is the time to start assembling game levels, animated bits, film clips and adjusting things to complete the project and make the necessary tweaks reflect the original dream/plan/ concept/animatic as much as possible.

I strongly believe that each application or suite of tools fits into one of these categories better than the other. If someone feels like they need to rant constantly about their own application then I think they might be using the wrong one or the company doesn't understand the software they are developing. OR they should consider using multiple applications/ toolsets for different periods throughout the pipeline.

You got all that from me talking about LW BRush being an exciting asset to Lightwave modeling? My statements about LW Brush in comparison to Modo in know way are about production pipelines, but about the capabilities of Modeler that LW Brush is showing and that Modo has already capitalized on (which is important to note since Modo's modeling base is LW Modeler).

lightscape
01-17-2015, 10:15 PM
Though I've never actually heard the lux dev bash lightwave, the same is not true for the ex lightwavers who completely moved to modo. Not all of them but the same lunatic ex fanboys over here just transferred there and bashed lightwave and keeps bashing lightwave after moving to modo.

I'd like to see where Brad actually say lightwave sucked because I don't think a guy as smooth talker as he is would do that. He's too slick to make that mistake. Even the first guy to try to appease the userbase after the sale of the Foundry went public.

One thing in the video, the on screen cut tool creates thickness automatically. Modo doesn't have that. How clean is the geometry?

brent3d
01-17-2015, 10:22 PM
I didnīt feel this was a fair comparison, where the differences shows properly..the modo steal of lightwave code ranting was just too much to listen to in this.
It sort of failed to showcase what you can do with modo sculpting and not in lightwave, and went biased on how much better better lw brush worked.
There are things you can do in modo sculpting but not in lightwave...that didnīt came across.

Though lw brush seems nice...I still need a layout tool, working in realtime with symmetry too...no after fix sym, even if that helps out, lw brush is a nice addition indeed.

Thanks to brent anyway for attempting to showcase the differences..in his way :)


Michael

You were spotted trolling my Youtube channel. The in-context disagreement of a topic or demonstration is one thing... over 5+ paragraphs of a bizarre and out of context reply that you continued to "re-edit" so that it would remain on top of all other incoming replies is a no-no.

brent3d
01-17-2015, 10:35 PM
yes native sculpting and painting and baking would be great but what binds those three properties together is mapping without a robust uv system in place they're not really a whole lot, so why buy this if it is not at the very least able to replace 3D Coat let alone Modo, don't get me wrong LW 2015 is a great buy and I'm saying this as some one who owns both 2015 and Modo 801, but the bottom line is LW's achilles heal has always been piss poor uv mapping, yeah I can do all this sculpting and whatever but oh wait I need to sort out my uv's, time to fire up Modo, 3D Goat, some thing anything but not LW

Totally agree Gerry. I believe 3rd Powers or LW3DG can develop a better designed UV system to accommodate painting, so lets see what happens.

brent3d
01-17-2015, 10:46 PM
OMG THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, FINALLY!!

It's about time I finally see someone say that Modo is lightwave no matter how hard they try to hide the code etc. As soon as I seen Modo and tried using it, I had no problem at all using it because like you showed here on the video most of the commands, functions etc are the same as lightwaves. This is why I never understood how the modo community can bash lightwave since they are using basically the same architecture. It's so obvious they completely ripped off lightwave and just made some modifications to it. I mean seriously there subpatch system is exactly the same as lightwaves because it is lightwaves subpatch system right down to the TAB hot key.

Thanks
Jason

Lol..it had to be said Jason. Modo and LW are part of the same family (no other 3D suite can say that), totally surprised at how many people are clueless about the fact that Modo's modeling base is LW Modeler and written by the same developers, which was great back in early versions of Modo when it was much cheaper (it was Modeler on steroids). I love Modo's modeling, used it for years professionally along side Lightwave and taught it to hundreds of students, but Lightwave is due some Modeler love and 3rd Powers LW Brush is dishing it out.

brent3d
01-17-2015, 10:49 PM
More rant than demo but I still found it very entertaining!

Thanks for bearing with it :)

brent3d
01-17-2015, 10:51 PM
I don't currently have any screen capture software installed, so I can't make my own video comparison at the moment, but I'd like to point out an aspect of LW brush that's getting overlooked in these discussions.

In the Grab tool, there's a "maintain surf detail" checkbox, along with a stiffness slider. When this checkbox is enabled, it's like working with an interactive soft body/cloth simulation, where pushing the surface around affects the surrounding mesh to maintain the shape structure and reduce having the mesh cross over itself. This, as far as I know, is not something that you'll not see in modo, 3d coat, or zbrush.

And it's REALLY cool.

The slide tool has a similar option (at least under the hood) called "make wrinkles". when you push on the surface, it makes it wrinkle up just like if you were pushing cloth around.

One of the things about 3d modeling software in general is that polys are just virtual surfaces that connect points in space. modeling/sculpting is nothing like working with clay or plasticine in the real world. Volume/mass in not conserved, and the rules of physics just don't exist. In some ways, this may be good, but in others, it makes the task much harder (or at least labor intensive) than working in the real world with real materials.

What I like about LW brush is that it's nudging the process of modeling in this direction. It may not be perfect at it in all cases, but it's the only modeling tool I've seen that even attempts to do what it does.

Eric

You are so right Eric :thumbsup: I'm hoping others with more time can do some demos of LW Brush, it has so much potential in the modeling workflow.

brent3d
01-17-2015, 11:04 PM
Though I've never actually heard the lux dev bash lightwave, the same is not true for the ex lightwavers who completely moved to modo. Not all of them but the same lunatic ex fanboys over here just transferred there and bashed lightwave and keeps bashing lightwave after moving to modo.

I'd like to see where Brad actually say lightwave sucked because I don't think a guy as smooth talker as he is would do that. He's too slick to make that mistake.

In an article awhile back Brad himself made mention of working on Lightwave as a hobby, but working on Modo was something serious...blah blah blah... something like that (Not sucks or anything extreme), which was a big deal since he was once the LW spokesman and one of Modelers developers. But the point is realizing that what Modo has with it's modeling, sculpting, uv mapping, and painting can be done in Lightwave's Modeler too and 3rd Powers is showing how.

lightscape
01-17-2015, 11:22 PM
In an article awhile back Brad himself made mention of working on Lightwave as a hobby, but working on Modo was something serious...blah blah blah... something like that (Not sucks or anything extreme), which was a big deal since he was once the LW spokesman and one of Modelers developers. But the point is realizing that what Modo has with it's modeling, sculpting, uv mapping, and painting can be done in Lightwave's Modeler too and 3rd Powers is showing how.

I don't think you've been reading David Ikeda's post in facebook. He has far worse things to say about everything not just the app but about the red tape. :D
And about Modeller getting modern painting and sculpting, he said it would require a rewrite. Some base code might be similar with modeller and modo but the code has gone way beyond modeller so in effect if people want modern tools then modeller would need a rewrite. I'd rather NT work on bringing modeller tools in layout and concentrate on bringing non-destructive worklow rather than following modo's path that is still destructive in 2015. Modo still sucks compared to other appz that have non-destructive workflow no matter how I look at it. its not the app I want lightwave modelling to follow.

Surrealist.
01-18-2015, 02:02 AM
My first response to Modo when going over the modeling tools was that it was too similar to LW. It went further than LW is a lot of ways but it was too much like Modeler for my tastes. But that is where my comparison ended. I found the rest of Modo surpassed a lot of the main things I cared about in an app over LightWave. But I still saw it as a work in progress and was not where I wanted it to be yet so I passed.

I like the idea of a side by side comparison. I think more people should do this. But I'd like to see it completely free of any bias or rant. That is my opinion. But I like the idea of us artists getting a chance to see how things work in other apps and compare to what we are familiar with.

For that - thanks. Much appreciated!

Wickedpup
01-18-2015, 02:43 AM
In an article awhile back Brad himself made mention of working on Lightwave as a hobby, but working on Modo was something serious...blah blah blah... something like that (Not sucks or anything extreme), which was a big deal since he was once the LW spokesman and one of Modelers developers.
Do you have a link?


I like the idea of a side by side comparison. I think more people should do this. But I'd like to see it completely free of any bias or rant. That is my opinion. But I like the idea of us artists getting a chance to see how things work in other apps and compare to what we are familiar with. I agree.

prometheus
01-18-2015, 04:52 AM
You were spotted trolling my Youtube channel. The in-context disagreement of a topic or demonstration is one thing... over 5+ paragraphs of a bizarre and out of context reply that you continued to "re-edit" so that it would remain on top of all other incoming replies is a no-no.

why do you draw bizarre conclusion that has nothing to do with anything what so ever...
what has my re editīs to do with antything except that I missed to write down something I should have mentioned or the fact that I often need to spell check and thus re-edit...how the hell do you come to the conclusion I am trolling and re-edit so I can stay on top of all other replies..

out of context?...yeah my feedback on voxels is out of context from lw brush, so what..itīs a discussion that can develop, just as they can spin off topic in these threads..so I tried to make a sort of description on some other stuff, maybe I shouldnīt ..it was a little about telling you that there are differences which you of course know..modo isnīt lightwave, and I also tried to make it neutral do how it actually worked for me when working with it, both bad in modo and what is bad in lightwave.

Maybe you find my replies bizarre...I am not having english as my first language, thus I may not adequatly form my sentence properly enough, and I recognize that myself, thus I often do changes..and you somehow get some conspiracy theory in there..

This is ridiculous brent, feels like you are proned to look for conspiracy stuff around places, in my postings..and in luxology stealing the lightwave code.

prometheus
01-18-2015, 04:56 AM
In an article awhile back Brad himself made mention of working on Lightwave as a hobby, but working on Modo was something serious...blah blah blah... something like that (Not sucks or anything extreme), which was a big deal since he was once the LW spokesman and one of Modelers developers. But the point is realizing that what Modo has with it's modeling, sculpting, uv mapping, and painting can be done in Lightwave's Modeler too and 3rd Powers is showing how.

If that is true, well that may not have been professionally by him, but you donīt think that maybe he ment that during the initial states of lightwave development ..it more started out as a hobby, and now several years later it feels more serious..with modo that is, then again..you heard it, I didnīt..I canīt say for sure just speculate.
I donīt know.

prometheus
01-18-2015, 06:07 AM
I uv mapping, and painting can be done in Lightwave's Modeler too and 3rd Powers is showing how.


Painting? does 3rd powers got painting tools now, like modo painting of textures fractals and colors?, or do you mean exclusivly the sculpt painting?

Surrealist.
01-18-2015, 06:13 AM
To me the forums are a place to learn and share information. Koodos for anyone at least taking the time to do a comparison video. I have often threatened (silently to myself lol) to do some comparison videos because I use a few different tools. But alas I don't really have the time. But I think these are great things. If more people did this, and were willing to share tools they work on I think we all benefit.

The more unbiased and un-ranting it can be the better, but, who am I to say because I have not even taken the time to do one, so I can not be too hard. But that is how I think people would get the most out of it.

Many multi-app users on the forum.

Maybe we can see more of this?

prometheus
01-18-2015, 06:14 AM
though I have made some complaints about a native lw brush not being there, it doesnīt mean I donīt think the lw brush tool is great, it looks great, itīs a bit of two topics for me though, having a native tool in there, that I have been waiting for since core... and a commercial plugin that might not be secured by lightwave development in years to follow etc.

What I really think looks cool is the fracture parts and slicing and dicing with the pen, that I donīt think is something modo brush can do..or if they at all have something similar.

Michael

prometheus
01-18-2015, 06:16 AM
The more unbiased and un-ranting it can be the better, but, who am I to say because I have not even taken the time to do one, so I can not be too hard. But that is how I think people would get the most out of it.

Many multi-app users on the forum.

Maybe we can see more of this?

Agreed +1

brent3d
01-18-2015, 09:55 AM
why do you draw bizarre conclusion that has nothing to do with anything what so ever...
what has my re editīs to do with antything except that I missed to write down something I should have mentioned or the fact that I often need to spell check and thus re-edit...how the hell do you come to the conclusion I am trolling and re-edit so I can stay on top of all other replies..

out of context?...yeah my feedback on voxels is out of context from lw brush, so what..itīs a discussion that can develop, just as they can spin off topic in these threads..so I tried to make a sort of description on some other stuff, maybe I shouldnīt ..it was a little about telling you that there are differences which you of course know..modo isnīt lightwave, and I also tried to make it neutral do how it actually worked for me when working with it, both bad in modo and what is bad in lightwave.

Maybe you find my replies bizarre...I am not having english as my first language, thus I may not adequatly form my sentence properly enough, and I recognize that myself, thus I often do changes..and you somehow get some conspiracy theory in there..

This is ridiculous brent, feels like you are proned to look for conspiracy stuff around places, in my postings..and in luxology stealing the lightwave code.

Prometheus, maybe you should think more before you write and shorten your remarks so there's less chance of you, or your actions, being misinterpreted.

"stealing"? I never stated anything like that regarding Luxology and Lightwave. "...ripping off ...or doing something closely similar..." in regards to implementing a LW Motion Mixer style workflow (that Lux was not reponsible in developing) and repackaging them as something new and benefiting is not the same as stealing actual code, but you know that. The spirit of my video is that Modo, my favorite modeling application, became successful and came from the same base code or workflow philosophy as LW Modeler and 3rd Powers' LW brush is showing Modeler's possibilities in reaching or exceeding those same related frontiers.

On a special note, it is extremely odd that it's ok to bash Lightwave on a regular basis, on it's forums, month after month, but to champion positive things like an upgrade or a new plugin somehow is wrong here. For everyone reading this, if you can't praise Lightwave related achievements openly on it's own forums, without a negative backlash by some, then where can you?

Marander
01-18-2015, 09:57 AM
I found Brent's comparison entertaining and an interesting insight since he has used both applications for a long time. What
i don't like in modo are the vertical tabs and the title bar that doesn't fit in my opinion. No doubt modo has made the bigger jumps technological but I'm sure LightWave will catch up with time. Meanwhile I'm very happy with LWCAD and I will get LWBrush this month for sure.

Edit: Brent's videos are very welcome and helped me alot to see more of LWBrush.

Edit2: It personally doesn't disturb me that much but many Non-Users will only give it another try with Unification (according to posts in cgtalk for example)

brent3d
01-18-2015, 10:08 AM
To me the forums are a place to learn and share information. Koodos for anyone at least taking the time to do a comparison video. I have often threatened (silently to myself lol) to do some comparison videos because I use a few different tools. But alas I don't really have the time. But I think these are great things. If more people did this, and were willing to share tools they work on I think we all benefit.

The more unbiased and un-ranting it can be the better, but, who am I to say because I have not even taken the time to do one, so I can not be too hard. But that is how I think people would get the most out of it.

Many multi-app users on the forum.

Maybe we can see more of this?

Totally disagree, LW users need to be excited and enthusiastic about Lightwave and it's future (which is the responsibility of the LW3DG). Brad from Lux was always like that when at LW and he carried that massive enthusiasm to Modo and rode it to success, Proton did an excellent job at this, and now Lino is doing is best to keep users looking forward. But it's not blind optimism to be enthusiastic about Lightwave, but the process of generating momentum behind it. Also, if your on a specific apps forum shouldn't we expect the topics to be centric to that app, why would there be anything different?

jasonwestmas
01-18-2015, 10:17 AM
You got all that from me talking about LW Brush being an exciting asset to Lightwave modeling? My statements about LW Brush in comparison to Modo in know way are about production pipelines, but about the capabilities of Modeler that LW Brush is showing and that Modo has already capitalized on (which is important to note since Modo's modeling base is LW Modeler).

That's the thing, 90% of the time you were NOT talking about how great LW brush was and how it compared to modo sculpt tools. Here's my summary of what you said and compared it to my reaction. . . So instead I hear this very bias and over generaized labeling about how modo was immitating good ideas from lightwave and turning it into a bloated imitation game, attacking the Foundry's supposed developmental direction with it; and how it is based on the same code and we should all pay attention. Just because there are a lot of little similarities between applications does not mean at all that the overall workflows are similar. I get this kind of talk from all sorts about zbrush from 3dc people about how pixo is scamming from Pilgway, I simply don't care and usually just ignore it. Zbrush works for a lot of people, attacking it's supposed direction development wise makes no sense at all. It makes you all look like a bunch of ill-informed goons and casts a ugly light on this community.

Then you really started to loose traction with me when you mentioned how zbrush and autodesk applications are all bloated and immitating ideas and making those ideas less useful because of their bloatiness. I still don't know what "Bloated" means in this context. I guess it means the program is less useful and interactive. Common people, be specific in your criticisms. People that do this kind of socialized developmental critiquing sound like bickering old men when you try to bash successful cg tools. I guess people do this because there are some apps. that might be a little scary to look at for whatever reason. This makes me feel like we are back in the 40's trying to segregate everybody and trying to herd them into the Freedom camp while we are painting the enemy "dark shades of red or whatever". Is that the reality we are in here? Any successful company out there has to get trash talked these days it seems. Is that really the way to get lightwave to be where you all want it?

So in my reply to your video above. . . I'm a believer in offering alternatives when I think the current state of things are going nowhere fast. I say be specific in your workflow context, because if you are not using the correct tools for the jobs you are doing you aren't going to use them for what the developer intended. You appear to be taking the position of saying that the developers don't know the technology they have and are turning good tools into bloated-ware. Well be more specific about that because I don't buy it and your current attitude about successful software. It's successful for a reason and I think that is because it is being used correctly. Again similarities between applications do not necessarily imply that the features are being used in the same workflow context. People say these applications are competing but after using many of them over the past 15 years I see their strengths and weaknesses and they are all quite different in a workflow and job context. Did I mention workflow context?

Sorry if i totally missed your ligitamate points I didn't see many of them because you muddied the waters with me. You were spot on about how cool LWBrush was in the interactive, creative freedom sense which is why I bought into it. But not every toolset is intended for creative freedom like fluid paint, often cg tools are not paint and brushes, but hammers and screw drivers that are intended to make the current project more stable and so fluid changes are less likely. Your reasoning appeared to be that of, oh we see this hammer and brush have handles so they must be intended to be used for the same purpose and we should get the same result. . . but somehow it doesn't work out. Why doesn't it work that way that I intended there are similarities after all, well it must be because the competing software is bloated, too huge and too successful. We need to go back to our roots and tell LW3DG and the community that we need to unionize and fight back? Seems like a lot of wasted effort, let's instead talk about what tools work best for and how we can use them together.

I'm not belittling you, rather I am belittling this attitude that I have just described, that is on all sides and I hope to get rid of it some day. Of course I can't do that alone.

brent3d
01-18-2015, 10:27 AM
Do you have a link?

I agree.

Sorry that you don't know the history of Lux and Newtek and what has been said and done in the past, but the information is out there someone will drudge it up, but that's really not the point here.

My statements in the video have nothing to do with bias, since I love both applications, but are from years of user experience regarding changes and lack thereof from both applications in regards to the possibilities of Lightwave's future.

Lightwave 2015 upgrade and LW Brush warrant enthusiasm, especially on the official Lightwave3D forum. Maybe those not interested in an enthusiastic optimistic view of Lightwave's future should hang out more at CGsociety, I here they are warm and welcoming over there.

Wickedpup
01-18-2015, 10:28 AM
Edit: You beat me to it.....but just as I suspected, nothing but hearsay.

And in your rant video you used the tilde key to assign surfaces in both LW and Modo....but isnīt the default shortcuts Q and M respectively?

prometheus
01-18-2015, 10:35 AM
Prometheus, maybe you should think more before you write and shorten your remarks so there's less chance of you, or your actions, being misinterpreted.

"stealing"? I never stated anything like that regarding Luxology and Lightwave. "...ripping off ...or doing something closely similar..." in regards to implementing a LW Motion Mixer style workflow (that Lux was not reponsible in developing) and repackaging them as something new and benefiting is not the same as stealing actual code, but you know that. The spirit of my video is that Modo, my favorite modeling application, became successful and came from the same base code or workflow philosophy as LW Modeler and 3rd Powers' LW brush is showing Modeler's possibilities in reaching or exceeding those same related frontiers.

On a special note, it is extremely odd that it's ok to bash Lightwave on a regular basis, on it's forums, month after month, but to champion positive things like an upgrade or a new plugin somehow is wrong here. For everyone reading this, if you can't praise Lightwave related achievements openly on it's own forums, without a negative backlash by some, then where can you?

think more?...I am not really writing a manuscript..and I just will not engage in spending 30 minutes about what I want to say..what I say pops up fast and I simply go with that directly when I write..but yeah, sometimes we all say the wrong things...or perhaps not formulated properly, and harder for me than you since your native language is american english I think?

I write as I think directly, sometimes my keyboard canīt keep up with my speedy fingers, I do write quite fast..but the response from the keyboard is often to late, so it can be such errors I have to correct, along with some after checking to find out that it was actually miss spelled, or could have been formulated better, I donīt aim to think that much before I write..just to ensure someone isnīt missunderstanding me..and put my corrections in relation to some of their own suspicious thoughts..thatīs his or herīs problem..but it hasnīt anything to do with the truth from my pont of view. (Edited) point of view..fingers are so fast)

I can understand you might have been a little offended, but I also thanked you for trying to showcase it and the effort you put in to at least making a vid of the differences.
Stealing..that Might have been the wrong word formulated word from me, ripping of or using almost the same code perhaps... I felt you focused on a lot on that rant instead of the actual performance or toolbox differences between the lw brush and modo brush.

Bashing of lightwave in general..or specific tool?..that is not my problem if you perceive it like that in these forums, that is up to lightwave group and webmasters to control..sure we users should be careful, but not to the point to agree to every darn thing ok.

I try to keep a straight on bashing on feature lack, not lightwave as a whole, you saw in my youtube comment how I went about talking about the differences between modo voxels and lightwave voxels, I did not go lightwave Overall as better than Modo overall.(or vice versa ..edited) .if I engage in a tool comparison over here, it is mostly because I want to shred a light on how lightwave tools can be improved, and it is just recently I have tested modo, so I havenīt bashed around much at all otherwise.

As I have said before and in the youtube comment...I really prefer to work in lightwave, since it feels faster..more direct and structured the way I want it..so it has been, but I also think that the latest releases do not meet my expectations in the same way they have been doing before..and Modo has more of implemented tools in the way I would like to see in lightwave..that I hope will change....and when lw brush shows up..well thatīs nice, but I actually excpected a sculpt tool nativly within my upgrade account...and that I have been waiting for not just for 2015..but even many versions back since it was showcased in core, I canīt control how they develop it, but I think I am entitled to say something about it..if I think it would be good to have a sculpt tool natively..otherwise it is just the emperorīs new clothes kind of censorship, where it comes to such ridiculous...chime in on everything good about it, that I could just skip entering this forums and stop being active at all.

I reckon I might have to Edit this :D and one thing you are absolutly right about, I tend to write too long sentences, it could be that just because I can write very fast, I somehow feel that while I am at it....lets write a lot :)
someday I will become demented, and I will forget about the fingering technique (not sure that is the right word?) and go for hitting the letters with one finger only...then it will take too long time and my postīs will be shorter.

brent3d
01-18-2015, 11:42 AM
That's the thing, 90% of the time you were NOT talking about how great LW brush was and how it compared to modo sculpt tools. Here's my summary of what you said and compared it to my reaction. . . So instead I hear this very bias and over generaized labeling about how modo was immitating good ideas from lightwave and turning it into a bloated imitation game, attacking the Foundry's supposed developmental direction with it; and how it is based on the same code and we should all pay attention. Just because there are a lot of little similarities between applications does not mean at all that the overall workflows are similar. I get this kind of talk from all sorts about zbrush from 3dc people about how pixo is scamming from Pilgway, I simply don't care and usually just ignore it. Zbrush works for a lot of people, attacking it's supposed direction development wise makes no sense at all. It makes you all look like a bunch of ill-informed goons and casts a ugly light on this community.

Then you really started to loose traction with me when you mentioned how zbrush and autodesk applications are all bloated and immitating ideas and making those ideas less useful because of their bloatiness. I still don't know what "Bloated" means in this context. I guess it means the program is less useful and interactive. Common people, be specific in your criticisms. People that do this kind of socialized developmental critiquing sound like bickering old men when you try to bash successful cg tools. I guess people do this because there are some apps. that might be a little scary to look at for whatever reason. This makes me feel like we are back in the 40's trying to segregate everybody and trying to herd them into the Freedom camp while we are painting the enemy "dark shades of red or whatever". Is that the reality we are in here? Any successful company out there has to get trash talked these days it seems. Is that really the way to get lightwave to be where you all want it?

So in my reply to your video above. . . I'm a believer in offering alternatives when I think the current state of things are going nowhere fast. I say be specific in your workflow context, because if you are not using the correct tools for the jobs you are doing you aren't going to use them for what the developer intended. You appear to be taking the position of saying that the developers don't know the technology they have and are turning good tools into bloated-ware. Well be more specific about that because I don't buy it and your current attitude about successful software. It's successful for a reason and I think that is because it is being used correctly. Again similarities between applications do not necessarily imply that the features are being used in the same workflow context. People say these applications are competing but after using many of them over the past 15 years I see their strengths and weaknesses and they are all quite different in a workflow and job context. Did I mention workflow context?

Sorry if i totally missed your ligitamate points I didn't see many of them because you muddied the waters with me. You were spot on about how cool LWBrush was in the interactive, creative freedom sense which is why I bought into it. But not every toolset is intended for creative freedom like fluid paint, often cg tools are not paint and brushes, but hammers and screw drivers that are intended to make the current project more stable and so fluid changes are less likely. Your reasoning appeared to be that of, oh we see this hammer and brush have handles so they must be intended to be used for the same purpose and we should get the same result. . . but somehow it doesn't work out. Why doesn't it work that way that I intended there are similarities after all, well it must be because the competing software is bloated, too huge and too successful. We need to go back to our roots and tell LW3DG and the community that we need to unionize and fight back? Seems like a lot of wasted effort, let's instead talk about what tools work best for and how we can use them together.

I'm not belittling you, rather I am belittling this attitude that I have just described, that is on all sides and I hope to get rid of it some day. Of course I can't do that alone.

Thanks for clarification on your position, but it's still not what I was really talking about in my video but that's okay.
"bloated" is from the perspective of a team that is only using Modo specifically for it's origins as a modeling, sculpting, painting software, and in reference to the Modo Ui as the software has grown from a modeling application to a full 3D Suite (with a unified workspace). So if my studio is still purchasing Modo for its modeling tools, but more stuff keeps getting added to the app, then it can easily be seen as bloated or convoluted for our needs. So our focus is shifting more towards Lightwave's Modeler, which puts the focus back on it's development, plugins, and future possibilities.

Both of us have been doing this stuff for 15+ years so it's cool to disagree or misunderstand. Lets see what the LW3DG and 3rd Powers have in store for this year, should be interesting since 3rd Powers recently announced that all the LW Brush tools will soon be able to work with Modelers Symmetry tool and that will be great.

brent3d
01-18-2015, 12:05 PM
Edit: You beat me to it.....but just as I suspected, nothing but hearsay.

And in your rant video you used the tilde key to assign surfaces in both LW and Modo....but isnīt the default shortcuts Q and M respectively?

Heresay? your the one who doesn't know about it...so do your research.

About the assigning surfaces, the point wasn't specifically about the tilde key (which is my own choice) but that the tool workflow access is identical, which is neither bad or good, just the same.

jasonwestmas
01-18-2015, 12:28 PM
Thanks for clarification on your position, but it's still not what I was really talking about in my video but that's okay.
"bloated" is from the perspective of a team that is only using Modo specifically for it's origins as a modeling, sculpting, painting software, and in reference to the Modo Ui as the software has grown from a modeling application to a full 3D Suite (with a unified workspace). So if my studio is still purchasing Modo for its modeling tools, but more stuff keeps getting added to the app, then it can easily be seen as bloated or convoluted for our needs. So our focus is shifting more towards Lightwave's Modeler, which puts the focus back on it's development, plugins, and future possibilities.

Both of us have been doing this stuff for 15+ years so it's cool to disagree or misunderstand. Lets see what the LW3DG and 3rd Powers have in store for this year, should be interesting since 3rd Powers recently announced that all the LW Brush tools will soon be able to work with Modelers Symmetry tool and that will be great.

Thanks for your honesty and perspective on things. I'm glad that what I wrote was not what you were trying to say. I did my best not to get too personal about it. Rather I'm trying to be logically sensible. I too admire the flexibility and direct power in smaller specialized toolsets. I think that making these rather huge applications which Modo development is indeed trying to become are going to have growing pains such as the ones you are talking about. I just feel differently about these large applications than others do. I see them as a totally different breed of machine is all, not something to be frowned upon. But yeah we'll see.

Wickedpup
01-18-2015, 12:35 PM
Heresay? your the one who doesn't know about it...so do your research.

About the assigning surfaces, the point wasn't specifically about the tilde key (which is my own choice) but that the tool workflow access is identical, which is neither bad or good, just the same.

Nah, sorry! It's not me making claims as to what have been said. Nor would I make such claims without knowing that I could back it up. You clearly think otherwise, which IMO only says something about your character....but that is your prerogative. Just don't expect me to believe you....frankly not my problem if you got caught with your pants down :D

Emmanuel
01-18-2015, 02:11 PM
I just dont care if people know that Lux came from NT back then, why would anybody care ? It has no influence on either software.

Surrealist.
01-18-2015, 05:24 PM
Totally disagree, LW users need to be excited and enthusiastic about Lightwave and it's future (which is the responsibility of the LW3DG). Brad from Lux was always like that when at LW and he carried that massive enthusiasm to Modo and rode it to success, Proton did an excellent job at this, and now Lino is doing is best to keep users looking forward. But it's not blind optimism to be enthusiastic about Lightwave, but the process of generating momentum behind it. Also, if your on a specific apps forum shouldn't we expect the topics to be centric to that app, why would there be anything different?

Yeah I agree. I was trying to point out the positive in what you did which was to at least take some action. Because it happens here, people will make comparisons. And you responded by breaking out both tools, took some of your valuable time to demonstrate similarities and differences. Adding this kind of thing to a discussion is positive.

In a perfect world sure, we should all just leave other tools out of discussions. But that never happens. And the mods are usually very liberal. If they were being literal they'd delete this thread. But they realize they have to exercise some form of judgment, and they do. Matt and the team are pretty cool about things here and they should be given that credit.

My opinion is simply this. If you are going to do it, leave out the rants. Leave out any bias and if you are going to demonstrate two tools to it fairly and professionally without any slant.

I think people would get more out of it.

I think if you are going to talk about other software at all, then don't do it in a bashing way of any kind here. To me that is just unprofessional.

But even with that, I still thank you for taking the time. It is more than anyone else did.

jwiede
01-19-2015, 08:12 PM
Thanks for clarification on your position, but it's still not what I was really talking about in my video but that's okay.

Brent, LWBrush was neither the topic which received the greatest continuous discussion time in your video, nor the greatest total discussion time among the topics you mentioned. You might believe that LWBrush was what you primarily talked about in the video, but there's not much objective basis to support that position. It felt like the rant was the main subject, not LWBrush. If that was your intent, so be it, but it doesn't sound like that was your intent.

lightscape
01-19-2015, 08:24 PM
Such long posts from people with thousands of posts.
Don't you guys go out and enjoy whats outside? :D

Greenlaw
01-19-2015, 11:33 PM
Today I went out bicycling with my family. Wheee! :)

50one
01-20-2015, 01:31 AM
I like how how you all complain about people bashing LW(ex users, or ex users-now-Modo-users) yet you all bash MODO hehe.




Today I went out bicycling with my family. Wheee!

I made a snowman yesterday, even more fun.

S

jeric_synergy
01-20-2015, 02:04 AM
Today I went out bicycling with my family. Wheee! :)

I was watching the Seahawks luck out (seriously, GB dominated) and win the NFC championship and a Super Bowl berth.

They earned it, but luck was really, REALLY on their side.

#gohawks

Wickedpup
01-20-2015, 02:08 AM
I like how how you all complain about people bashing LW(ex users, or ex users-now-Modo-users) yet you all bash MODO hehe.
Words of contemplation for certain individuals here.......:thumbsup:

dballesg
01-20-2015, 03:32 AM
in regards to implementing a LW Motion Mixer style workflow (that Lux was not reponsible in developing)

Brent,

If you're going to post things like that, please take the time to inform yourself (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/products/LightWave/Downloads/70MotionMixer_Manual.pdf). In that pdf you can see Mark Brown was the programmer of Motion Mixer.

Guess who is in charge of all the animation system in Modo?

I only point this so others that doesn't know the previous relation between LightWave and Modo's developers at least got the facts right.

Cheers.

lightscape
01-20-2015, 03:45 AM
Words of contemplation for certain individuals here.......:thumbsup:

Guys like Phungus or nevremindneko or something, loonies at lux forums. Nothing good to say about newtek or lightwave. Nothing...and they always bring any discussion about lightwave into a Core discussion.

dballesg what's the relationship between Mark and Andy Brown?

lightscape
01-20-2015, 03:51 AM
Today I went out bicycling with my family. Wheee! :)

I went hiking last weekend. :)

50one
01-20-2015, 04:02 AM
I went hiking last weekend. :)



whereabout? I'm too into hiking.

dballesg
01-20-2015, 04:15 AM
dballesg what's the relationship between Mark and Andy Brown?

To be honest no idea.

prometheus
01-20-2015, 04:49 AM
Such long posts from people with thousands of posts.
Don't you guys go out and enjoy whats outside? :D

Thanks for the reminder and the advicing to correct our lifestyle, we continously need to be reminded.
Though, right now itīs not that enjoyable outside, to icy and slippery, windy and no sun to be seen for days and weeks really, not even a proper snow coat over here ..that usually helps lighting things up, well enough with excuses I guess..no bad weather only bad clothes I guess, tyfons and tornados ..we donīt get over here, .so I donīt have any clothes for that :)

Wickedpup
01-20-2015, 05:27 AM
.....and they always bring any discussion about lightwave into a Core discussion.
....cause that NEVER happens here :ohmy:

MarcusM
01-20-2015, 07:18 AM
No news about LW Brush on Modo forum?

Oedo 808
01-20-2015, 07:37 AM
Taken from another thread:


hmm is it me or LW BRUSH tool does not respect intersect points when you are in subpatch mode... it uses object cage as reference to move points.... that is not good for subdivision modelers..

Is that correct?

prometheus
01-20-2015, 08:13 AM
No news about LW Brush on Modo forum?

Nope ..not in the modo forum section, it is however not allowed, the foundry general cgi section is probably allowing it, but I didnīt see anything there either at this writing moment.
I am not going to start anything either.

MarcusM
01-20-2015, 09:30 AM
Nope ..not in the modo forum section, it is however not allowed, the foundry general cgi section is probably allowing it, but I didnīt see anything there either at this writing moment.
I am not going to start anything either.

But comparision could be there and fun to read. ;]

50one
01-20-2015, 09:39 AM
But comparision could be there and fun to read. ;]


why stop there? Let's compare the undo functionality in both apps, maybe UV tools too?

Like we need more trolling.

prometheus
01-20-2015, 10:17 AM
But comparision could be there and fun to read. ;]

fun? I just wanīt pure unbiased comparison on the differences, not the equal stuff and nothing else....or maybe we should post the link to
brent alleyneīs youtube comparison(sorry brent..just laugh at it all :) ) and see if it survives up there in the sections on the foundry forums...maybe that will be fun to see.
who will upload it?

Michael

MarcusM
01-20-2015, 10:17 AM
why stop there? Let's compare the undo functionality in both apps, maybe UV tools too?

Like we need more trolling.

Just supprised why is so silett after seleased LW Brush. Nevermind :]

prometheus
01-20-2015, 10:19 AM
why stop there? Let's compare the undo functionality in both apps, maybe UV tools too?

Like we need more trolling.

well this thread topic is about lw brush VS modo, so no point in going to far off topic from the brush toolset is there.
Nothing is to stop anyone from comparing the rest of the features between modo and lightwave on other topic threads though :) except for the moderators jumping in and correcting whatīs appropiate.

50one
01-20-2015, 11:24 AM
Just supprised why is so silett after seleased LW Brush. Nevermind :]

I think MODO's users are dying from being so envious! Hence the lack of threads about it lol

Vs Vs Vs....we all know how vast majority "X vs Y" threads ends up:)

Surrealist.
01-20-2015, 07:03 PM
Vs Vs Vs....we all know how vast majority "X vs Y" threads ends up:)

Progressively more entertaining. :hey:

jasonwestmas
01-20-2015, 07:47 PM
ends up? Sure but what about everything in between. :D

brent3d
01-20-2015, 09:48 PM
Brent,

If you're going to post things like that, please take the time to inform yourself (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/products/LightWave/Downloads/70MotionMixer_Manual.pdf). In that pdf you can see Mark Brown was the programmer of Motion Mixer.

Guess who is in charge of all the animation system in Modo?

I only point this so others that doesn't know the previous relation between LightWave and Modo's developers at least got the facts right.

Cheers.

Thanks dballesg, yes Mark Brown is the actual original Author of Motion Mixer back when it was a 3rd party plugin, way-way back (5.6-6.0?) so it's his intellectual property or is it Newteks now? Either way Modo "is" successfully utilizing a system similar to Lightwave's Motion Mixer (update: so similar it was written by the same author, which must be an interesting fact for those who still contest that the similarities between LW and Modo are few).

brent3d
01-20-2015, 11:49 PM
Taken from another thread:



Is that correct?

Oedo 808, See the difference for yourself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoG06LCN8oQ

dballesg
01-21-2015, 02:34 AM
Thanks dballesg, yes Mark Brown is the actual original Author of Motion Mixer back when it was a 3rd party plugin, way-way back (5.6-6.0?) so it's his intellectual property or is it Newteks now? Either way Modo "is" successfully utilizing a system similar to Lightwave's Motion Mixer (update: so similar it was written by the same author, which must be an interesting fact for those who still contest that the similarities between LW and Modo are few).

I will say is property of NewTek now, specially when several limitations were fixed by the new team. In the same way the render engine on previous versions I bet is nothing comparable to the actual one.

AFAIK Modo doesn't have a Non-Linear animation system yet. If it does, please post an example on Modo's Forums (not here please). I've seen a lot of people asking about it there.

If you mean the actor - poses system, is only part of the puzzle.

And beign from the same programmer has sense that there will be similarites. No reason to reinvent the wheel. Unless it can be converted into a warp engine! :D

Cheers.

lightscape
01-21-2015, 04:09 AM
Thanks dballesg, yes Mark Brown is the actual original Author of Motion Mixer back when it was a 3rd party plugin, way-way back (5.6-6.0?) so it's his intellectual property or is it Newteks now? Either way Modo "is" successfully utilizing a system similar to Lightwave's Motion Mixer (update: so similar it was written by the same author, which must be an interesting fact for those who still contest that the similarities between LW and Modo are few).

Well that does confimr some of your points. And yes to me modo and lightwave are too similar. Both destructive and both behind other appz.

Newteks mistake could be that they allowed modo devs to use base code or design which they should have made a strict contract to begin with.

If this was Apple they would sue you for millions. They sued samsung for having a mobile device that is squarish with a button!

I would like newtek to sue modo devs seriously.

prometheus
01-21-2015, 04:29 AM
Oedo 808, See the difference for yourself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoG06LCN8oQ

Much better presentation...Thanks Brent.

Oedo 808
01-21-2015, 04:53 AM
Oedo 808, See the difference for yourself.

Thanks Brent.

Seems like it might not be too much of an issue as it's a brush, my concern was that the tweak tool only works on cages, and for me I find that it sucks nuts working on low poly cages, especially when tweaking creased areas, so I just stick to dragging points.

jwiede
01-21-2015, 05:31 AM
Hmm, does 3rdPowers LWBrush offer any sort of masking support? There's nothing obvious in the UI/controls indicating mask support, and it hasn't been mentioned, but also seems an odd thing to omit given their attention to detail in other areas.

jasonwestmas
01-21-2015, 07:18 AM
Hmm, does 3rdPowers LWBrush offer any sort of masking support? There's nothing obvious in the UI/controls indicating mask support, and it hasn't been mentioned, but also seems an odd thing to omit given their attention to detail in other areas.

Any component selected will be edited just like normal LW tools.

devin
01-21-2015, 10:29 AM
Well that does confimr some of your points. And yes to me modo and lightwave are too similar. Both destructive and both behind other appz.

Newteks mistake could be that they allowed modo devs to use base code or design which they should have made a strict contract to begin with.

If this was Apple they would sue you for millions. They sued samsung for having a mobile device that is squarish with a button!

I would like newtek to sue modo devs seriously.


It's been quite awhile since I saw this posted and it's likely still hearsay, but it's my understanding that the original developers (Allen and Stuart) still retained rights and ownership to some of Lightwave's underlying base code which they created.

jwiede
01-21-2015, 01:22 PM
Any component selected will be edited just like normal LW tools.

How does LWBrush indicate which geometry can be edited? Is there any provision to alter/drop the selection without having to completely leave the LWBrush tool?

I still hope 3rdPowers adds mask support, both because its a workflow element sculpt tool users know/expect, and because it offers finer, dynamic control.

jasonwestmas
01-21-2015, 01:32 PM
How does LWBrush indicate which geometry can be edited? Is there any provision to alter/drop the selection without having to completely leave the LWBrush tool?



LW brush will not edit the geometry that is not highlight-selected. So it's no different from using any other tool in that regard. I think the geometry highlight that indicates the selection disappears when the LWBrush starts to distort the geometry. I'll double check later.

jasonwestmas
01-21-2015, 04:44 PM
ok, actually what happens is that the selection remains visible as you use LWBrush to edit the selected polys. This works with points and edges as well.

jwiede
01-21-2015, 10:09 PM
ok, actually what happens is that the selection remains visible as you use LWBrush to edit the selected polys. This works with points and edges as well.

(edited away first question, was having problems phrasing question)

I'm glad they keep the highlighting around, with that selection can function nearly as well as masking for constraints (albeit a bit less dynamically). I would still like to (at least until masking arrives) see a modifier key or such offer a live "drop constraint" ability (with tools where it makes sense, obv), without forcing user to drop selection, change brush/tool/whatever.

ALso, as someone else already mentioned, changing push-pull to decouple brush size from whether pushing or pulling is needed. Users put significant effort into configuring brushes to get them "just right", so forcing them to constant reconfigure brushes just to do common "momentary" ops like reverse action or smooth for a bit with a tool gets annoying. Zbrush and 3DC both have evolved efficient UI mechanisms for such "live modes" on tools via modifier keys, and LWB probably should attempt to closer mimic their UX in such functionality.

lino.grandi
01-22-2015, 03:37 AM
LW Brush is not a sculpting tool, imo.
Is more a toolset to edit meshes in very clever ways. Deforming an object respecting the topology is a very unique and extremely useful feature (makes making facial expressions extremely easy, just to mention one). Or cutting objects the way it does. Just amazing. Or sliding polygons keeping the mesh shape. Or creating polygons on a mesh drawing curves.
Real Sculpting implies a fast mesh system and possibly multi-level sculpting. And proper projection tools to transfer the detail to a low poly subpatch object.
And LW Brush is not (and doesn't want to be) any of this.

lightscape
01-22-2015, 04:05 AM
Agree. It would save a lot of time doing organic modelling and facial morphs for people doing character work. Its directly accessible in modeller without the fuss.
For real sculpting and detailing there's just no substitute for zbrush, 3dcoat, mudbox.

jasonwestmas
01-22-2015, 07:27 AM
well lwbrush does allow sculpting, it's just sculpting at a single low to medium resolution.

Greenlaw
01-22-2015, 10:08 AM
Thanks Lino, I couldn't have said it better myself. I don't quite understand the obsession with what Lightwave Brush isn't and doesn't do over all the amazing capabilities it does bring to Modeler. Seriously, we've never had anything like it before in 'standard' Modeler so this new plugin a huge and very welcome deal!

Could it be better? Sure, and the dev appears to be hard at work making it so. Give it time, it's only been out for a couple of weeks and it's already incredibly useful. Sheesh! :)

G.

jasonwestmas
01-22-2015, 10:51 AM
I think LWBrush is awesome as is. Just the tactile feeling of the tools alone is what sells it to me. I don't say that about every plugin. Sure things can be added to it to make it more awesome.

ianr
01-22-2015, 12:12 PM
AAAAH THE 'WAVE' WASHES BACK! ( Sheesh! )

hang in there Masahiro San

jeric_synergy
01-22-2015, 02:33 PM
I don't quite understand the obsession with what Lightwave Brush isn't and doesn't do over all the amazing capabilities it does bring to Modeler.
G.
This syndrome dates back to Amiga days: concentrating on what the machine/software DOESN'T DO. LW inherited this stupidity.

Now Apple, which IMO makes "meh" products, manages to do the opposite: make their slightly-better-than-average products seem like miracles.

bobakabob
01-22-2015, 04:03 PM
Does anyone here remember back in the 90s when Modeler was *the* innovatory modelling well kept secret / underdog paving the way for SudDs with MetaNurbs? Back in the days you had to take out a mega bank loan to invest in the big league Max, Alias, Softimage... Yet they just didn't compare to the immediacy and intuitive brilliance of LW Modeler. There was the mega obsession with Nurbs for awhile which consumed the major players but funnily enough they have finally caught up now with their fundamental poly modeling tools. It is strange that Newtek neglected the genius architecture of Modeler for so long but inspiring that 3rd party developers such as 3rd Powers and LWCAD are making the app essential again :-) I really hope LW3DG work on developing this brilliant architecture that was years ahead if its time. Yes it could do with handling bigger poly counts but then try modelling in Maya. PS I could care less about the whole unified debate. So many artists are using multiple apps these days anyway. Zbrush is pretty indispensable for 3D art and works wonderfully with LW Looking forward to what LW3DG and 3rd Powers have in store for the future.

Surrealist.
01-22-2015, 04:16 PM
I have always considered this sculpting. Even in a modeling app and not in a sculpt app. I don't know anything else to call it. Any enhancement to this workflow is welcome in a modeling app. And in general it is just better to have sculpting brushes available in a "polygon modeling" toolset. But if you don't have that, at lease a good grab tool is welcome. And this brush tool looks like it adds lots of great features.

Man almost 10 years since this one.... where in the heck has the time gone!

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?39449-HeadPrimitives-and-Radial-Falloff

My first "big discovery" about this technique was a huge eye opener for me.

So unless someone comes up with a word for it, I'd say we can settle for sculpting.

And they did call it LW Brush after all.:hey:

bobakabob
01-22-2015, 04:51 PM
Surrealist, great to see those early models and what was / is capable with LW's Magnet / Dragnet tools. Still essential and enormously powerful. A major reason I bought into LW back in the dark ages.

Surrealist.
01-22-2015, 06:10 PM
Thanks yeah, interesting Time Machine this forum.

What happened was I really did not have a clue about the right click adjustment of the brush size initially. I really felt stupid when someone pointed out I did not have to make brush size presets... lol. But sometimes this is how I learn, I can be a little slow on the uptake as it were....

But the point is, yeah you are right, this is a powerful workflow. And you can apply a lot of the same concepts as you can with sculpting.

Of course, roughing out a character in Zbrush is far more ideal to me now. Dynamesh is a lot closer to an ideal "technology free" workflow.

But still all modelers need and expect this kind of functionality on the "purely polygon" side.

jwiede
01-22-2015, 07:22 PM
Could it be better? Sure, and the dev appears to be hard at work making it so. Give it time, it's only been out for a couple of weeks and it's already incredibly useful. Sheesh! :)

I'm a paying licensee of LW Brush and customer of 3rdPowers, I've done my bit -- I purchased my right to make comments and suggestions about the product. Do you even own it?

For that matter, what did you EXPECT to be the discussion occurring in a thread titled "LW Brush vs. Modo"?

jwiede
01-23-2015, 03:19 AM
Is more a toolset to edit meshes in very clever ways. 

That's also a precise description of sculpting tools/packages' function, though. The plugin offers non-sculpting functionality as well, but since tools like Grab and Push-Pull are functioning just as equivalent tools function in dedicated sculpting pkgs, "sculpting" seems as good a term to use as any.

Can you think of a different term which more efficiently conveys their workflow and functionality?

lino.grandi
01-23-2015, 06:56 AM
That's also a precise description of sculpting tools/packages' function, though. The plugin offers non-sculpting functionality as well, but since tools like Grab and Push-Pull are functioning just as equivalent tools function in dedicated sculpting pkgs,

No, they're not. No pressure sensitivity, blobby effect....very hard to define them "sculpting" tools. They're more mesh editing tools.
I purchased LW Brush mainly for the Smart Grab, Smooth and Cut tool. There are simply too many things missing before we can talk about a "sculpting tool". LW Brush adds some great features to Modeler. But no, it doesn't add "Sculpting".






"sculpting" seems as good a term to use as any.

Can you think of a different term which more efficiently conveys their workflow and functionality?

Yes. Mesh Editing Tools. Cool ones.

prometheus
01-23-2015, 07:12 AM
well lwbrush does allow sculpting, it's just sculpting at a single low to medium resolution.

sort of what I would say too, not sure I would agree with Lino on the technical naming of it, sculpt tool was there in maya long time ago.and a tool in Lightwave core named sculpt :)..(though that core sculpt tool felt quite slow) .since you could brush sculpt/deform..as you now can with the lw brush, then most of us relates sculpting tool nowadays
with relation to zbrush and mudbox doing high level shaping almost equally to real life sculpting in clay sort of, and that sort of is accepted as a true sculpting tool perhaps.

I would say it is both a sculpt tool and itīs not a sculpt tool, how that now can be possible..:D
Probably because the boundaries between what is considered sculpting in 3d is pretty loose and dynamic depending on the situation and what you aim for.
A sculpt tool is often refered to a tool with airbrush to paint Deform the surface, and that the Lw brush does, how well it performs with high level meshes etc..thatīs another thing I think

Edit..noticed Linos post above...Yeah, there are different definitions, interesting point of view...I thought it felt like sculpting anyway in what I saw, though he is right about pressure sensitivity and blobby effect perhaps, the thing that I noticed was the more inflate brush pull style, but other than that ..it looked quite good.

If Lino continues to deny it as a sculpt tool..I hope they have something on the works on their own :D :D :thumbsup:

prometheus
01-23-2015, 07:37 AM
If one were to take Linoīs considerations of requirements for a sculpt tool, and this is lw brush compare modo sculpt, and as I in modo can see multi res sculpting and displacement and noise painting (pressure sensitivity?) etc, then the modo sculpt tools actually should be considered a proper sculpting tool... while lw brush isnīt quite there yet in terms of that sort of sculpting? but good for a lot of other things modo sculpt donīt do.

Michael

lino.grandi
01-23-2015, 07:51 AM
sort of what I would say too, not sure I would agree with Lino on the technical naming of it, sculpt tool was there in maya long time ago.and a tool in Lightwave core named sculpt :)..(though that core sculpt tool felt quite slow) .since you could brush sculpt/deform..as you now can with the lw brush, then most of us relates sculpting tool nowadays
with relation to zbrush and mudbox doing high level shaping almost equally to real life sculpting in clay sort of, and that sort of is accepted as a true sculpting tool perhaps.

Yes, the "Sculpt" concept is pretty old. But now it has evolved in very specialized applications like ZBrush, MudBox and 3D Coat.
In that sense, I don't feel LW Brush has given me sculpting in Modeler.



I would say it is both a sculpt tool and itīs not a sculpt tool, how that now can be possible..:D
Probably because the boundaries between what is considered sculpting in 3d is pretty loose and dynamic depending on the situation and what you aim for.
A sculpt tool is often refered to a tool with airbrush to paint Deform the surface, and that the Lw brush does, how well it performs with high level meshes etc..thatīs another thing I think

I agree....


Edit..noticed Linos post above...Yeah, there are different definitions, interesting point of view...I thought it felt like sculpting anyway in what I saw, though he is right about pressure sensitivity and blobby effect perhaps, the thing that I noticed was the more inflate brush pull style, but other than that ..it looked quite good.

If Lino continues to deny it as a sculpt tool..I hope they have something on the works on their own :D :D :thumbsup:

:offtopic:

LOL

Greenlaw
01-23-2015, 08:57 AM
I'm a paying licensee of LW Brush and customer of 3rdPowers, I've done my bit -- I purchased my right to make comments and suggestions about the product. Do you even own it?

For that matter, what did you EXPECT to be the discussion occurring in a thread titled "LW Brush vs. Modo"?

I do own a license and I still stand by what I wrote...but, yeah, I see your point. It is a 'versus' thread after all. Carry on. :)

G.

Surrealist.
01-23-2015, 09:00 AM
We the artists define it based on what we do, how it feels to us and our approach to a given technique. It has nothing to do with how a tool should be named based on what it actually does as compared to another tool. And you can not sit around and have a chin-rubbing discussion over the finer points. We all know very well what a sculpting program is and does. But that does not mean we don't like some of that functionality when we are modeling a mesh. When we do that usually we consider it sculpting.

Apps can grow specialized but we as artists always respond - I think - in a manner that describes what we do and how it feels no matter what the tools are.

So I am not sure where this is going other than to say they called it a brush tool because likely that is how it felt to them and the approach they were going for as developers and likely not as much to do with direct comparisons.

For that we'd then have to say, well it actually isn't painting or something.

Yet, there is it they called it LW Brush, go figure.

jasonwestmas
01-23-2015, 12:19 PM
Painting is the act of smearing a substance around with a tool of some type. Fingers, Hair, knives etc. LWbrush feels a little like that. :)

magiclight
01-24-2015, 06:10 AM
I was thinking about Modo before I went with LightWave but the license conditions is not very pleasing, I usually give up when they have this kind of text in the license conditions....

"The Foundry will consider licence transfer requests from one computer to another only if the original
computer or computer component from which we determine the system id number, has been lost, stolen,
damaged, upgraded or replaced and for no other reason."

"Scultping" can mean so many things that I think it's impossible to make something all will like, all people use it in different ways so it's difficult to please all,
lets just be happy that there are many choices.

prometheus
01-24-2015, 07:35 AM
Painting is the act of smearing a substance around with a tool of some type. Fingers, Hair, knives etc. LWbrush feels a little like that. :)

Feels like making a pancake:D

Michael.

jasonwestmas
01-24-2015, 07:49 AM
""Scultping" can mean so many things that I think it's impossible to make something all will like, all people use it in different ways so it's difficult to please all,
lets just be happy that there are many choices."

Yes, that's my general attitude as well. As for happiness, well I'm happy if I can just get something finished. :D

Surrealist.
01-24-2015, 08:15 AM
lol, yes, here's to finishing! :beerchug:

jasonwestmas
01-24-2015, 08:27 AM
Feels like making a pancake:D

Michael.

Fingers, Hair, knives, PANCAKE TURNER etc. LWbrush feels a little like that.

Greenlaw
01-24-2015, 09:08 PM
I was thinking about Modo before I went with LightWave but the license conditions is not very pleasing, I usually give up when they have this kind of text in the license conditions....

"The Foundry will consider licence transfer requests from one computer to another only if the original
computer or computer component from which we determine the system id number, has been lost, stolen,
damaged, upgraded or replaced and for no other reason."

Wow, they've gotten super strict. The version I'm still using is 601 which has a very liberal licensing policy--I can install and use it on any computer so long as I'm only running one copy at a time and I'm the sole user. This was a perfect system for me because when I was freelancing, I tended to work at many locations, on different workstations and mobile computers. I thought about upgrading to 801 but these new terms really puts a damper on that. Is there a modo user here that can confirm if the policy has really changed that much?

I hope LW3DG sticks to their current licensing. It works perfectly for me.

G.

lightscape
01-24-2015, 11:08 PM
I was thinking about Modo before I went with LightWave but the license conditions is not very pleasing, I usually give up when they have this kind of text in the license conditions....

"The Foundry will consider licence transfer requests from one computer to another only if the original
computer or computer component from which we determine the system id number, has been lost, stolen,
damaged, upgraded or replaced and for no other reason."

"Scultping" can mean so many things that I think it's impossible to make something all will like, all people use it in different ways so it's difficult to please all,
lets just be happy that there are many choices.

I think thats for Nuke and Mari. No such restriction on Modo except that you can only resell a version that is one level below the current version and a transfer fee.

Greenlaw
01-25-2015, 01:14 AM
Okay, that's cool.

G.

gerry_g
01-25-2015, 03:20 AM
yeah I run 801 and have it on three computers as per agreement, never have a problem, wonder what its like restriction wise if you have the Nuke Package with Modo as part of the deal though, after thought – I fired up 701 once on a separate machine while 801 was up on another and was able to carry on running it without issue or warning ?

Wickedpup
01-25-2015, 05:31 AM
AFAIK it's not like Modo phones home to check if you run more than one license at a time, it's more like they trust us users to honour and respect that license restriction.

gerry_g
01-25-2015, 08:33 AM
true but it is network savvy, one copy will drop into slave mode if you fire up a second on the same license, but unlike LW Modo appears to differentiates between versions of the same app and discount a prior version from the restriction which surprised me.

jwiede
01-25-2015, 06:52 PM
true but it is network savvy, one copy will drop into slave mode if you fire up a second on the same license, but unlike LW Modo appears to differentiates between versions of the same app and discount a prior version from the restriction which surprised me.

From modo's perspective, each version's license is distinct from those for other versions, so it behaving that way makes sense -- prior versions are checking for completely different licenses in use than the one you're using in 801.

brent3d
01-28-2015, 07:37 PM
Testing out LWBrush v1.01 symmetrical mesh manipulation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uwojZM3bd4

raw-m
01-29-2015, 12:09 AM
Brent3d, YouTube has blocked it in the UK on 'copyright grounds', think it's the music you've used?

Andy Webb
01-29-2015, 03:56 AM
Brent3d, YouTube has blocked it in the UK on 'copyright grounds', think it's the music you've used?

Yes I cannot get it either...

prometheus
01-29-2015, 06:48 AM
skip music backgrounds, itīs just annoying, and you donīt have to face issues with copyright.

A cat purring sound..very faint in the background, that I can live with.

jburford
01-29-2015, 09:59 AM
A comparison of LW Brush by 3rd Powers against Modo's mesh sculpt tools. http://www.3rdpowers.com/index.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3XA4dykW3g


Brent, could you please add a Comment/Wording for the Fair Usage Act, that any and all music or elements used in it are for educational purposes? Would appreciate it, as the German Gema Nazis are blocking it in Germany, we are not allowed to look at it otherwise.

Cheers
Jeff

brent3d
01-29-2015, 09:20 PM
Thanks for the heads up jburford, I'll look into that.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for the heads up jburford, I'll look into that.