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scratch33
01-07-2015, 03:01 AM
Hi,

I have bought chronosculpt and nevronmotion on day one when released.
because it promised well for the future and to support the development of new lightwave tools.

2 years ago.......

Now..... these programs seems abandoned. No news, no ugpgrade, nothing.
chronosculpt seems more like a tech demo than a finished product. I have requested a simple rotation features some time ago. Nothing.

Nevronmotion is a little more advenced, but can be much better.

Why?

Are they like other good newtek idea : released then immediately dropped?

I regret buying these tools. I have lost my money for a dead horse.

hrgiger
01-07-2015, 06:18 AM
well Im pretty sure it was only a year and a half ago since it was unveiled at Siggraph which is in the summer.

But yes, it would be nice to know if there will be updates to either program, specifically CS since as far as Nevron goes, there are other options for retargeting.

ernesttx
01-07-2015, 06:31 AM
I too have been waiting for Chronosculpt and a rotate feature, put in a request and haven't heard anything back. Totally inexcusable for a product that's been out for about 1.5 years.

jwiede
01-07-2015, 04:50 PM
But yes, it would be nice to know if there will be updates to either program, specifically CS since as far as Nevron goes, there are other options for retargeting.

For those who bought into Nevron (incl. myself), the availability of other options doesn't much lessen the frustration that LW3DG has failed to communicate about or update it in quite some time. I suspect Chronosculpt customers feel much the same.

Megalodon2.0
01-07-2015, 04:58 PM
For those who bought into Nevron (incl. myself), the availability of other options doesn't much lessen the frustration that LW3DG has failed to communicate about or update it in quite some time. I suspect Chronosculpt customers feel much the same.

Agreed. That's like saying "You don't need character animation in LW, there's always Maya."

hrgiger
01-07-2015, 06:53 PM
Agreed. That's like saying "You don't need character animation in LW, there's always Maya."

Well no. It's more like saying, you don't need NevronMotion as much when you can already do retargeting in LW with IKBooster as Ryan has showed or even use an inexpensive plugin like Rhiggit. The Maya example is quite exaggerated.

I bought Chronosculpt and am just as frustrated with the fact that there doesn't appear to be any sign these programs will be updated anytime soon.

Megalodon2.0
01-07-2015, 08:18 PM
Well no. It's more like saying, you don't need NevronMotion as much when you can already do retargeting in LW with IKBooster as Ryan has showed or even use an inexpensive plugin like Rhiggit. The Maya example is quite exaggerated.

I bought Chronosculpt and am just as frustrated with the fact that there doesn't appear to be any sign these programs will be updated anytime soon.


I figured you would have bought CS and not Nevron since Nevron wasn't your concern. I bought Nevron and not CS, so I guess Nevron is MORE my concern. But as I said in another thread, it looks like LW3DG isn't focusing on those applications at all - AND - there is no communication AT ALL concerning these two apps.

Also, Rhiggit is about $185 US and I bought Nevron I believe for $199. Not a huge difference. And Nevron does do more than just re-targeting.

Unfortunately it looks like Nevron and CS are going the way of Rendition - or they will ultimately be ported to LW.

01-08-2015, 04:16 AM
Weren't those Ikeda's babies?
With his departure, perhaps they have become moribund.

Which would really push me to a decision I get to live with...

lardbros
01-08-2015, 06:41 AM
Weren't those Ikeda's babies?
With his departure, perhaps they have become moribund.

Which would really push me to a decision I get to live with...

I think Chronosculpt was David Ikeda's baby... I have a feeling that Nevron was more David Vrba's.
I hope they communicate something regarding these... a great shame if they've been left for dead. Especially as in general LW is looking up, a huge blip like this on their reputation, won't do any good!

Oedo 808
01-08-2015, 08:10 AM
Maybe they hit their impasse when Rob asked him to add to the tool set for Chronosculpt and he replied that the architecture needed more work.

Ryan Roye
01-08-2015, 08:13 AM
I'd like to see updates to both applications too... Chronosculpt, as useful as it can be for animators, is quite basic for a $400 program. The purpose of chronosculpt is so narrow in its current state that I feel it limits the potential customer base. They just have to expand on what they've started and we all know this.

If only one thing were to be updated with Nevron, it would be to add rig-independent retargeting functionality... none of this "use and work with my rig/rig parts exclusively to get this capability" mentality. Nevron's next update needs to prioritize this as its sensor support is really held back by limited retargeting capability. I'm willing to put in the time/effort to create a proper retargeting system for Lightwave having already created a proof of concept plugin for that purpose... but I'd really prefer that LW3DG beats me to it!

Mr_Q
01-08-2015, 09:54 AM
Not to dismiss efforts and I know it is unavoidable for me to not coming off sounding like an ***, but I don't understand how anyone would have paid for those. Especially with the release and update history of the company. Two brand new products at a time when the team had seemingly been absent (to the public) already for quite some time with their main piece of software, Lightwave.

Developing software is an incredible task to undertake. I think it's great Newtek gave it a shot, but they have much higher priorities. Getting their "house" in order being the largest; Lightwave.

It was an un-needed distraction for the team. You can have your cake, later, when the kitchen is built.

jasonwestmas
01-08-2015, 10:45 AM
If it has animated sculpting in it, I'm buying it. :)

Megalodon2.0
01-08-2015, 11:16 AM
I think Chronosculpt was David Ikeda's baby... I have a feeling that Nevron was more David Vrba's.
I hope they communicate something regarding these... a great shame if they've been left for dead. Especially as in general LW is looking up, a huge blip like this on their reputation, won't do any good!

Yeah, and looking at Ikeda's posting on FB it doesn't shine a positive spotlight on the internal working of NT/LW3DG.

After the last communication blackout and Rob coming in and stating that they were going to work on communication... I'm hopeful. Not optimistic, but hopeful. But then I've given NT/LW3DG the benefit of the doubt on many occasions.


Not to dismiss efforts and I know it is unavoidable for me to not coming off sounding like an ***, but I don't understand how anyone would have paid for those. Especially with the release and update history of the company. Two brand new products at a time when the team had seemingly been absent (to the public) already for quite some time with their main piece of software, Lightwave.

Developing software is an incredible task to undertake. I think it's great Newtek gave it a shot, but they have much higher priorities. Getting their "house" in order being the largest; Lightwave.

It was an un-needed distraction for the team. You can have your cake, later, when the kitchen is built.

You're right, but if people NEED/WANT these items, they buy them. I really wanted to move away from Motion Builder with an easy/simple solution for retargeting so Nevron seemed like a good fit. But then here it is more than a year and a half later and nothing. They don't respond to questions on the forum and simply ignore everyone. It really is maddening to think that you can run a company this way and expect customers to stick around. I like using LW and have been using it since '96 - but they NEED to go back to being customer-oriented and COMMUNICATE. One wrong move - like going rental-only - will seal their fate with me. And they had certainly better not drop development on CS and Nevron.

lardbros
01-08-2015, 11:20 AM
There's no doubt that they both have their place in the market, they harbour cool functionality, and a lot of potential... But it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Newtek decided to add the tools to LW 2016 or 2017.

I hope they get developed further, to have another debacle like the inspire3d, speededit, aura thing... There's only so much people can stay positive with.

lardbros
01-08-2015, 11:23 AM
Yeah, and looking at Ikeda's posting on FB it doesn't shine a positive spotlight on the internal working of NT/LW3DG.

After the last communication blackout and Rob coming in and stating that they were going to work on communication... I'm hopeful. Not optimistic, but hopeful. But then I've given NT/LW3DG the benefit of the doubt on many occasions.



You're right, but if people NEED/WANT these items, they buy them. I really wanted to move away from Motion Builder with an easy/simple solution for retargeting so Nevron seemed like a good fit. But then here it is more than a year and a half later and nothing. They don't respond to questions on the forum and simply ignore everyone. It really is maddening to think that you can run a company this way and expect customers to stick around. I like using LW and have been using it since '96 - but they NEED to go back to being customer-oriented and COMMUNICATE. One wrong move - like going rental-only - will seal their fate with me. And they had certainly better not drop development on CS and Nevron.

I don't want to talk bad of David ikeda, he's a very talented guy, and clearly very very clever!!! BUT he had a different way of working and it didn't work for LW3D Group, nor for himself, to the detriment of both. Ultimately it's best for both parties that he left, and I don't think anyone is to blame for that!

cresshead
01-08-2015, 12:22 PM
apparently nevronmotion is being worked on and with the withdrawal of the first generation kinect from microsoft we're at least due an update that would add the kinect HD from the xbox one.

Megalodon2.0
01-08-2015, 12:52 PM
I don't want to talk bad of David ikeda, he's a very talented guy, and clearly very very clever!!! BUT he had a different way of working and it didn't work for LW3D Group, nor for himself, to the detriment of both. Ultimately it's best for both parties that he left, and I don't think anyone is to blame for that!

Regardless of how you feel about either party, the information he made available was consistent with how NT/LW3DG has been operating. I believe him 100% that things are as he described. Of course there are two sides, but we also see the NT/LW3DG side that they choose to show as well. It's not encouraging - IMO of course.


apparently nevronmotion is being worked on and with the withdrawal of the first generation kinect from microsoft we're at least due an update that would add the kinect HD from the xbox one.
Unfortunately only you know this since this information has not been disseminated to the users on the Nevron forum AND they do not respond to questions. It would be great if Nevron could work with several sensors, but they don't say ANYTHING either way. In fact they don't say anything. It's not how a company should operate.

jwiede
01-08-2015, 06:23 PM
apparently nevronmotion is being worked on and with the withdrawal of the first generation kinect from microsoft we're at least due an update that would add the kinect HD from the xbox one.

Please cite your source for this info?

Greenlaw
01-08-2015, 07:04 PM
The original Kinect for Windows is being phased out in favor of Kinect 2 for Windows. There was an announcement about it the other day.

I actually noticed it a couple of months ago when I had to replace one of my three original Kinect for Windows devices and it was difficult to find a major seller still carrying it. (I think I may purchase another one as a backup while I still can.)

I'll would upgrade to Kinect 2 for Windows except I need to be able to record with multiple sensors simultaneously. I can currently record with 3 Kinect for Windows devices in iPi Mocap Studio 3 using a single computer but to do the same thing with Kinect 2 for Windows requires three synchronized computers. The devs has apparently made this easy to do but I'm just not ready to deal with all that extra hardware yet, and I'm comfortable with the 'simpler' single computer setup I have now. I'll upgrade my devices eventually of course. :p

As for Nevron Motion, yeah, I imagine LW3DG has been working on updating it for Kinect 2 since it's widely available now.

G

Megalodon2.0
01-08-2015, 07:10 PM
As for Nevron Motion, yeah, I imagine LW3DG has been working on updating it for Kinect 2 since it's widely available now.

Yup... and that's ALL we have to go by - imagination - since nothing has been said to us plebes one way or another.

lightscape
01-08-2015, 10:15 PM
One wrong move - like going rental-only - will seal their fate with me. And they had certainly better not drop development on CS and Nevron.

Ipisoft went rental. You want to let them know its wrong over there? :D
1000 bucks for a year rental. Adobe seems like a saint for renting out a whole suite for less.

Megalodon2.0
01-08-2015, 10:20 PM
Ipisoft went rental. You want to let them know its wrong over there? :D
1000 bucks for a year rental. Adobe seems like a saint for renting out a whole suite for less.

I already did. But then I have an 8 camera Optitrack setup (about 5 to 6 years old) so Ipisoft is pretty much several steps down from that. That's why I'd be using Nevron for primarily retargeting.

Yup, Adobe seems like saints - but they're not. Just greedy little bastards. :D

jasonwestmas
01-10-2015, 09:40 AM
I think my biggest let-down here is the extremely limited sculpting capabilities there are in a program called chronosculpt. There's no respect for topology at all in these brushes and there isn't even a slide along topology brush. Yet the underlying technology is amazing.

hrgiger
01-10-2015, 10:17 AM
I think my biggest let-down here is the extremely limited sculpting capabilities there are in a program called chronosculpt. There's no respect for topology at all in these brushes and there isn't even a slide along topology brush. Yet the underlying technology is amazing.

Well, despite having sculpt in the name, it's not a modeling\sculpting app in any way. Its really, at this point aanyway, just a means to manipulate animation data.

jasonwestmas
01-10-2015, 10:27 AM
Well, despite having sculpt in the name, it's not a modeling\sculpting app in any way. Its really, at this point aanyway, just a means to manipulate animation data.

You mean sculpting a clay or rubber like substance? It is like that a little. There's a sculpt/ pull-out push-in brush, Drag/Move Brush, smoothing brush and a pinch brush. It works with a pressure sensitive stylus so basically yeah it is a sculpting toolset that you can animate over time.

Maybe you are thinking that I am expecting it to be like zbrush or 3dcoat. That's not what I am implying, I have used this application for animation work and was commenting on the limited sculpting toolset in that context.

Greenlaw
01-10-2015, 04:17 PM
Maybe you are thinking that I am expecting it to be like zbrush or 3dcoat. That's not what I am implying, I have used this application for animation work and was commenting on the limited sculpting toolset in that context.
I was about to respond similarly as hrgiger but after reading your followup response, I think I can agree with you. Even as an animation editor, CS can seem limited in some situations. For example, if you're editing an mdd of a crumbling structure and you want to rotate a tumbling fragment in a different direction, you can't do that in CS because the transform tool can move and scale but it can't rotate selections. That might be a limitation inherent to mdd displacement though.

That said, CS is a fantastic tool to have when you need it for what it was designed for. It's saved my butt on maybe a half dozen shots this past year.

G.

jasonwestmas
01-10-2015, 05:44 PM
I see. probably the feature I needed most when doing some stringy blob effects was the ability for the brush to detect the topology. I wanted to sculpt one group of polys without disturbing the other group, yet the polys are connected farther away from where I was sculpting. It's the same idea when sculpting lips on a human face. They are connected at a point but there needs to be negative space between them at another point. The sculpt brush in CS will only sculpt things in world space, not local topological space.

hrgiger
01-11-2015, 07:41 AM
Well what I was just suggesting is that there are no mesh creation tools, no way to change topology, no way even to split or copy or paste geometry. It's purpose is to merely reposition(or pin) geometry/animation cache and the brushes you mentioned make sense in that context but dont make sense in any type of modeling sense. Could you use it in some type of modeling sense? Sure, but it would be like using the handle end of a screwdriver as a crude hammer. Just outside the scope of its design.

jasonwestmas
01-11-2015, 07:45 AM
Well what I was just suggesting is that there are no mesh creation tools, no way to change topology, no way even to split or copy or paste geometry. It's purpose is to merely reposition(or pin) geometry/animation cache and the brushes you mentioned make sense in that context but dont make sense in any type of modeling sense. Could you use it in some type of modeling sense? Sure, but it would be like using the handle end of a screwdriver as a crude hammer. Just outside the scope of its design.

Sure, but that's what my original comment was about. Why should the sculpting-brush toolset be different or weaker for animated deformation purposes.

hrgiger
01-11-2015, 11:23 AM
well yeah Im sure the brush set could be expanded upon. I was mainly just responding to the comment on brushes respecting topology- i just wasnt sure why that would be needed in the scope of what Chronosculpt would be used for.

Surrealist.
01-11-2015, 07:47 PM
Forgive me, I have not used CS yet.

But based on the marketing and what it is saying it can do, fall off on a brush at the most basic level requires you have at least two options. One where the fall off grabs all geometry in a range and a second where the fall off follows the connected geometry. Without the second you would be extremely limited as to the situations it would come into use for corrective animation.

Any time geometry is very close the volume option can be problematic. Most tools I have with fall off offer the Surface (connected geometry) option. You need this option for even the basics, not even for getting fancy outside of the scope of the intended tool.

I think this is what Jason is referring to.

Am I understanding that correctly?

jwiede
01-11-2015, 11:52 PM
Forgive me, I have not used CS yet.

But based on the marketing and what it is saying it can do, fall off on a brush at the most basic level requires you have at least two options. One where the fall off grabs all geometry in a range and a second where the fall off follows the connected geometry. Without the second you would be extremely limited as to the situations it would come into use for corrective animation.

Any time geometry is very close the volume option can be problematic. Most tools I have with fall off offer the Surface (connected geometry) option. You need this option for even the basics, not even for getting fancy outside of the scope of the intended tool.

I think this is what Jason is referring to.

That was what I thought he meant as well, based on the examples he gave. Recognizing connected geometry (even though the connection may be outside the "brush volume") versus acting uniformly on everything within the "brush volume" regardless.

jasonwestmas
01-12-2015, 07:03 AM
Forgive me, I have not used CS yet.

But based on the marketing and what it is saying it can do, fall off on a brush at the most basic level requires you have at least two options. One where the fall off grabs all geometry in a range and a second where the fall off follows the connected geometry. Without the second you would be extremely limited as to the situations it would come into use for corrective animation.

Any time geometry is very close the volume option can be problematic. Most tools I have with fall off offer the Surface (connected geometry) option. You need this option for even the basics, not even for getting fancy outside of the scope of the intended tool.

I think this is what Jason is referring to.

Am I understanding that correctly?

Yup, for corrective animation edits, this is exactly what I was referring to. Seems necessary for a lot of scenarios, even one's that may not be corrective but animating some things from scratch.

OnlineRender
01-12-2015, 08:27 AM
re: I could maybe write a rotate tool ? what are we rotating exactly ?

jasonwestmas
01-12-2015, 08:47 AM
re: I could maybe write a rotate tool ? what are we rotating exactly ?

For some reason there isn't a rotate option in the transform tool. Might be useful to have that for simulation pieces/parts

OnlineRender
01-12-2015, 11:55 AM
Hmm the rotate tool was left bugged and unfinished , it works but not the way you would expect plus it's missing lang setups , I'll look around I can unlock the other tools * modelling tools but again they are half baked

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10918974_953417388015940_2574292833870081603_o.jpg

jasonwestmas
01-12-2015, 01:46 PM
Nice thanks! How is the rotation supposed to work, I couldn't figure it out? I also noticed that if you wanted to scale on one axis the points don't move much.

Surrealist.
01-12-2015, 04:33 PM
Yup, for corrective animation edits, this is exactly what I was referring to. Seems necessary for a lot of scenarios, even one's that may not be corrective but animating some things from scratch.

Yeah it would seem so to me.

ncr100
01-13-2015, 12:58 PM
Would 3rd Powers support Chronosculpt or is there no SDK for that app?

jwiede
01-13-2015, 02:04 PM
Would 3rd Powers support Chronosculpt or is there no SDK for that app?

Seems like market (lack of) scale would make it difficult for third-party devs to break even w.r.t. effort invested.