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View Full Version : LW Brush sneak peek



cresshead
12-26-2014, 03:50 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMhSFBCuQok

zbrush type sculpting moving tools in lightwave, and more including retopology

bobakabob
12-26-2014, 03:59 PM
Wow.The 3rd Powers guys have been busy. Some awesome modelling tools.

Where did you find this and any news about the release of the tools and the price? The last tools were worth every penny.

ernpchan
12-26-2014, 04:19 PM
I wanna know where the Buy button is.

tonyrizo2003
12-26-2014, 04:29 PM
Me too: I wanna know where the Buy button is!

kfinla
12-26-2014, 04:37 PM
Cool stuff, but I always look at the 3rd powers stuff and think this should be native to LW.

m.d.
12-26-2014, 05:56 PM
very cool.

the soundtrack is kickin' too

Ryan Roye
12-26-2014, 05:58 PM
Insert shut-up-and-take-my-money meme here.

jeric_synergy
12-26-2014, 06:15 PM
Insert shut-up-and-take-my-money meme here.
No kidding. :eek:

Photogram
12-26-2014, 06:20 PM
Finally an effective brush tool in modeler!!! :)

thekho
12-26-2014, 06:27 PM
Wow! I've been waiting a long time for modeler something like they did! Awesome stuff!!

prometheus
12-26-2014, 06:41 PM
I will come across like a negative whiner here, so first I have to say..that is awesome, very cool things..including the cutting parts for fracturing.

And here it comes..the whining..ready:D
I had expected a brush tool for lightwave by now(Lightwave 2015):devil:

..seeing it as a third party commercial tool, well it kinds of lower the excitement, but anyway...fantastic job he is doing with it.

Just started to test modo and itīs (built in) sculpt brush, works nicely.

Michael

ernpchan
12-26-2014, 06:53 PM
And here it comes..the whining..ready:D
I had expected a brush tool for lightwave by now(Lightwave 2015):devil:

..seeing it as a third party commercial tool, well it kinds of lower the excitement, but anyway...fantastic job he is doing with it.



True. It would be nice to see Modeler get major improvements on its own. It is nice though to see that:


The existing technology is capable of such awesomeness.
There are people talented enough to make these tools possible.


An awesome coder is valuable.

cresshead
12-26-2014, 07:36 PM
if it runs along the same requirements as their previous plugins then it will work with lightwave 9.6
which means everyone with a sorta "current- ish" lightwave can take advantage of this

Davewriter
12-26-2014, 08:53 PM
Insert shut-up-and-take-my-money meme here.
+1000

Oedo 808
12-26-2014, 09:11 PM
True. It would be nice to see Modeler get major improvements on its own. It is nice though to see that:


The existing technology is capable of such awesomeness.
There are people talented enough to make these tools possible.


Lol, ernpchan, I don't think you're helping him with those observations ;D

Anyway, these guys are the real deal, good to see they are flirting with LightWave for the time being.

brent3d
12-26-2014, 10:24 PM
Insert shut-up-and-take-my-money meme here.

Totally second that Ryan! They should just throw some painting to finish the deal (LW with sculpting and painting? OMG!). 2015 is going to be great year for LW!

JamesCurtis
12-26-2014, 10:58 PM
I like what I saw in the vid. I really hope that the cost will be really affordable. Here's hoping that the price won't be like the combined cost of their other plugins. I know the others are quite useful but I'm on a small budget these days.

sudac20
12-26-2014, 11:12 PM
Sold

jasonwestmas
12-26-2014, 11:17 PM
It literally looks like Victor and then these guys took a new modeler program and put it inside the Lightwave skin. I hope these tools make it into layout some day and can be keyframed.

Snosrap
12-26-2014, 11:22 PM
Amazing!

erikals
12-27-2014, 01:16 AM
I wanna know where the Buy button is.

none yet, but this is Awesome... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/biggrin.gif
http://www.3rdpowers.com/index_store.html

stevecullum
12-27-2014, 02:52 AM
Want it!

ianr
12-27-2014, 05:16 AM
IfI did hint more to come in my 3rd powers posts,
over the last few months,as i was told by Masahiro San
,but i didn't
expect such depth from the get go such as this!I

Jason is right in his post.Mr.powers seriously
has got to thank them & possibly bundle these
plugs & the Go pack. I would call it PHOENIX
MODELER EDITION for sure as the fuidity they
have brought to modeling is nothing short of
breathtaking. Well done the smile is back,back them!

Waves of light
12-27-2014, 06:56 AM
Some excellent additional tools from 3rd Powers. I'll be keeping a close eye on their site.

The way I see it, 3rd Powers are a win win for users and the LW developers. We get the extra tools we've been wanting in Modeler (even though we have to purchase them separately) whilst the Dev team concentrate on other areas of LW (and things under the hood that will assist future releases of LW).

And knowing the 3rd Powers team, they won't cost the earth.

prometheus
12-27-2014, 07:44 AM
Was there any info about wether or not this will only be available with lightwave 2015 or if it will work on 11.6 for instance?

Netvudu
12-27-2014, 07:49 AM
itīs pretty interesting how this poly technology and ZBrush 4R7 new poly sculpting technology are converging onto similar solutions. They are both closing the breach from opposite sides.
Right now I tend to favour Zbrush because its higher detail support, but itīs undeniable that this one doesnīt require dealing with a new UI.

safetyman
12-27-2014, 07:55 AM
This is an incredible-looking tool. Glad to know LW is capable!

bobakabob
12-27-2014, 08:24 AM
Was there any info about wether or not this will only be available with lightwave 2015 or if it will work on 11.6 for instance?

Their tools work with older versions of LW - back to 9.6 I believe.

Surrealist.
12-27-2014, 09:11 AM
some of that retopo reminds me of Bsurfaces. Which is an addon to and now included with Blender:

http://vimeo.com/26339130

pretty cool they managed something like that for Modeler.

robertoortiz
12-27-2014, 09:42 AM
The way I see it, 3rd Powers are a win win for users and the LW developers. We get the extra tools we've been wanting in Modeler (even though we have to purchase them separately) whilst the Dev team concentrate on other areas of LW (and things under the hood that will assist future releases of LW).


And here is where i wonder why oh why the LW developers dont bring in somehow these guys into the fold. The modeling tools they offer should be standard in LW.

Wade
12-27-2014, 10:31 AM
Frack! So how about a bundle - all 3rd Powers plugins for 295.00 - I'll bite hook line and sinker. Please consider a price that would make it easy for people to impulse buy. Something under 299.00 for all the tools would likely do the trick. This with LWCAD added to the mix and I am set to play all day.

MarcusM
12-27-2014, 10:37 AM
And here is where i wonder why oh why the LW developers dont bring in somehow these guys into the fold. The modeling tools they offer should be standard in LW.

Yes here we see what should be done... :( Not everybody want pay extra for plugins, we want that cool stuff in LW...

jeric_synergy
12-27-2014, 11:18 AM
A couple things: as to hiring the 3rd powers people, the same applies to all the excellent devs, Victor, DP, et al.

If they were hired, LW's cost would have to go up. So there's Marcus' argument blown-- we WOULD pay extra. As it is, people can add ala carte, and only pay for the stuff they need. Not everybody needs all these cool tools.

And +1 to Wade's price point: if they do the same thing as last time, this time I >>WILL<< jump at the first month pricing.

MarcusM
12-27-2014, 11:26 AM
A couple things: as to hiring the 3rd powers people, the same applies to all the excellent devs, Victor, DP, et al.

If they were hired, LW's cost would have to go up. So there's Marcus' argument blown-- we WOULD pay extra. As it is, people can add ala carte, and only pay for the stuff they need. Not everybody needs all these cool tools.

And +1 to Wade's price point: if they do the same thing as last time, this time I >>WILL<< jump at the first month pricing.

That means if LW price go down last time we should not expect nothing fancy from LW?
PS. I prefer pay LW3DG than others developers ;]

robertoortiz
12-27-2014, 11:41 AM
Frack! So how about a bundle - all 3rd Powers plugins for 295.00 - I'll bite hook line and sinker. Please consider a price that would make it easy for people to impulse buy. Something under 299.00 for all the tools would likely do the trick. This with LWCAD added to the mix and I am set to play all day.

What they could do is partner with LW, and offer that price for people who have upgraded to 2005. Hell Newtek should consider doing this also with the makes of LWCAD.

Surrealist.
12-27-2014, 12:13 PM
They did that once with v8 I think it was. I had a copy of LW Cad 1.5 on account of that bundle. I think it would be a good idea. They had a bundle offer recently too but I forget what it was off hand.

meatycheesyboy
12-27-2014, 01:37 PM
This might be a silly line of thinking, so feel free to smack me down if it is but if I remember correctly, the last set of 3rd Powers plugins came out right after LW11 and this set is announced right after 2015. Does LW3DG coordinate with bigger plugin developers when making plans? Do the say, "Hey 3rd Powers, hey Victor, what do you have planned for the next year? Oh, you're working on Modeler plugins? Then we'll focus only on Layout this next cycle."

pinkmouse
12-27-2014, 03:06 PM
Whilst it's great that LW still has excellent 3rd party support, you have to look at this globally. Now, it seems that to get basic modern functionality, you have to spend as much again as the package price. LWCad, RH pro, 3rd Powers, TFD...

How many new entrants will buy into the LW ecosystem when so much has to be added over and above the base price just to get stuff that's standard in other packages?

lino.grandi
12-27-2014, 03:09 PM
Whilst it's great that LW still has excellent 3rd party support, you have to look at this globally. Now, it seems that to get basic modern functionality, you have to spend as much again as the package price. LWCad, RH pro, 3rd Powers, TFD...

How many new entrants will buy into the LW ecosystem when so much has to be added over and above the base price just to get stuff that's standard in other packages?

Which other packages are offering what the plugins you just mentioned are offering? And what's their cost?

spherical
12-27-2014, 04:02 PM
I was just about to ask the same thing. For me, even though it obviously increases the cost of obtaining an increased toolset, I like the fact that I can add them whenever I need/can. Not all times of the year are prosperous; some years not at all.

prometheus
12-27-2014, 04:29 PM
Whilst it's great that LW still has excellent 3rd party support, you have to look at this globally. Now, it seems that to get basic modern functionality, you have to spend as much again as the package price. LWCad, RH pro, 3rd Powers, TFD...

How many new entrants will buy into the LW ecosystem when so much has to be added over and above the base price just to get stuff that's standard in other packages?


well..thereīs only one Deal in there, and that is the sculpt tool..wich comes in package with the package in Modo so to speak, not only does it sculpt, it paints, you can paint instances..you can paint particles..not points only, and you can sculpt particles...that is a very good toolset built in without additional cost.

The rest..just as Lino says :) perhaps with exception for what cage deforming tools, realtime booleans there are in max etc..not sure about that, lw cad, I donīt think is found similar and natively in any other package.
turbulenceFD isnīt natively anywhere....houdinini and maybe fluids...well, thatīs a completly different cost in the main package.

lino.grandi
12-27-2014, 04:57 PM
I would also add that the brush functionality offered by 3rdPowers is very unique. You can deform meshes and somehow "respect" the topology of the object....you can slide geometry keeping the global shape, you can cut objects in pieces for dynamics but even to define hard surface shapes.
The brush is more "animation oriented" than "sculpting oriented" for sure.
Great plugin set, no doubt. I have my money ready.

Surrealist.
12-27-2014, 05:02 PM
Which is why so many people go with Maya because it pretty much does all of that stuff. Weak in the dynamics side compared to Softimage and Houdini but for the price a very well rounded solution for around 3.5K

Some of those tools I agree are not apples to apples however. Some cool things you get in LW plugins you won't find other places.

But by and large all of this general kind of thing (modern rigging modeling and dynamics) is available in one form or another in all other packages from Blender and Modo up through the higher cost of C4D and Houdini depending on what your preferences are.

I got Softimage for around 2K on a competitive upgrade from LightWave. That was a steel!

I then upgraded to a Maya suite for an additional 1.5K So for around 3.5K I got Softimage Maya, MotionBuilder and Mudbox. A great deal.

So for me, it was worth the money to go with other solutions rather than wait around for LW features and plugins.

So I for one think it is a valid point and for some people worth considering. I know I did.

pinkmouse
12-27-2014, 05:44 PM
Sorry folks, I shouldn't have hijacked this thread. Let me just re-iterate, these are great plugins and it's great we still have 3rd party support for LW. I'll leave it at that and get back to my Houdini tutorials.

lightscape
12-27-2014, 08:11 PM
Whilst it's great that LW still has excellent 3rd party support, you have to look at this globally. Now, it seems that to get basic modern functionality, you have to spend as much again as the package price. LWCad, RH pro, 3rd Powers, TFD...

How many new entrants will buy into the LW ecosystem when so much has to be added over and above the base price just to get stuff that's standard in other packages?

The good thing is the base package price of lightwave is under 1k.
So even adding LWcad, RHpro, TFD, 3rd powers, its still below 3k.
For people that don't need any of those mentioned it still keeps lightwave at a good price under 1k and there are people who don't need LWcad, RHpro, etc that are using vanilla lightwave in production with no issues.
They even use Screamernet. Lol

If lw did raise its base price then that would be a dumb move since these tools are native in other packages. Mesh and render booleans and these other "mesh sculpting"(ffd lattice) are native in other packages.

brent3d
12-27-2014, 08:16 PM
Which is why so many people go with Maya because it pretty much does all of that stuff. Weak in the dynamics side compared to Softimage and Houdini but for the price a very well rounded solution for around 3.5K

Some of those tools I agree are not apples to apples however. Some cool things you get in LW plugins you won't find other places.

But by and large all of this general kind of thing (modern rigging modeling and dynamics) is available in one form or another in all other packages from Blender and Modo up through the higher cost of C4D and Houdini depending on what your preferences are.

I got Softimage for around 2K on a competitive upgrade from LightWave. That was a steel!

I then upgraded to a Maya suite for an additional 1.5K So for around 3.5K I got Softimage Maya, MotionBuilder and Mudbox. A great deal.

So for me, it was worth the money to go with other solutions rather than wait around for LW features and plugins.

So I for one think it is a valid point and for some people worth considering. I know I did.

Surrealist come on now, you can't go around comparing 3d apps to each other without regarding the amount of development, resources, and end cost to the user (it's like saying "my Mazda broke down so I just went and got a Porsche, hey it was worth the money). Who does that? but that's what you're actually saying you did. XSi and Maya were originally $6,999.00 software not to long ago, with that cost and level of development that put's them in a class by themselves regardless of what they sell or rent for now. You throw around these big numbers like $3,500 and $1,500 as if though they are exceptable in today's economy, when they're not. Seriously, if you're so happy with your Autodesk monopoly then why are you on the LW forums when you know good and well that the LW3DG (and other small developers) are battling to survive in the face of that monopoly? Every time some good news comes out regarding LW you and others come in to rain on the parade, it's predictable and it's not right. It doesn't reflect the reality that a lot of studios out there who have licenses to those Autodesk products pay their artists peanuts to use them. Also, for those who are reading this that moan about LW should have all these tools already built into it, that's a false reality as well. 3DsMax, the most taught and widely used of all the 3D apps is nothing but plugins. That's how this whole 3D software thing works, you develop a 3D suite, someone eventually writes a plugin to expand it's abilities, the 3D apps development team eventually integrates that plugins abilities into the over all suite (if it's popular feature that is). So if you want LW to be like Maya then put your money where your mouth is and start donating to the LW3DG, that's right just start paying double everything or triple so they can hire more developers and marketing staff since you have so much money to throw around. If not then yours and others posts are just an attempt to create decention in the LW ranks to further the grip of the monopoly, but hey I could be wrong.

jeric_synergy
12-27-2014, 08:23 PM
Ala' carte is better: TFD would bring my systems to their knees.

brent3d
12-27-2014, 08:25 PM
Whilst it's great that LW still has excellent 3rd party support, you have to look at this globally. Now, it seems that to get basic modern functionality, you have to spend as much again as the package price. LWCad, RH pro, 3rd Powers, TFD...

How many new entrants will buy into the LW ecosystem when so much has to be added over and above the base price just to get stuff that's standard in other packages?

Not true at all. The only software out there that even comes close to 3rd Powers plugin functionality is Modo which sells for $1495. Plugins are standard for all 3D applications and very cost effective for the user, so where are you guys getting your logic from big corporations?

brent3d
12-27-2014, 08:27 PM
Frack! So how about a bundle - all 3rd Powers plugins for 295.00 - I'll bite hook line and sinker. Please consider a price that would make it easy for people to impulse buy. Something under 299.00 for all the tools would likely do the trick. This with LWCAD added to the mix and I am set to play all day.

Totally support this idea Wade! Hopefully 3rd powers will have a launch bundle sale like they did last time.

brent3d
12-27-2014, 08:30 PM
A couple things: as to hiring the 3rd powers people, the same applies to all the excellent devs, Victor, DP, et al.

If they were hired, LW's cost would have to go up. So there's Marcus' argument blown-- we WOULD pay extra. As it is, people can add ala carte, and only pay for the stuff they need. Not everybody needs all these cool tools.

And +1 to Wade's price point: if they do the same thing as last time, this time I >>WILL<< jump at the first month pricing.

Totally agree with you on all points synergy.

brent3d
12-27-2014, 08:57 PM
well..thereīs only one Deal in there, and that is the sculpt tool..wich comes in package with the package in Modo so to speak, not only does it sculpt, it paints, you can paint instances..you can paint particles..not points only, and you can sculpt particles...that is a very good toolset built in without additional cost.

Modo modeling tools come from LW Modeler and is a good example of where Modeler can go. But that team spent years developing those sculpting and painting tools, as the price for Modo went higher and higher. Although Modo may seem like the ideal now, it wasn't like that till v.501, that's a lot of trial and error and eventually more cost to the end user. At v.801 it has become bloated and convoluted with it's expanded tool sets and plugins. I believe LW3DG can learn from that and come up with a more elegant solution, I believe 3rd Powers is showing how it can be done.

lightscape
12-27-2014, 09:10 PM
Not true at all. The only software out there that even comes close to 3rd Powers plugin functionality is Modo which sells for $1495.

Modo is actually very primitive in terms of modelling. Its destructive in nature like modeller.
These tools from 3rd powers do exist natively in other appz and more with non-destructive workflow, but like I said.

The good thing is the base package price of lightwave is under 1k.
So even adding LWcad, RHpro, TFD, 3rd powers, its still below 3k.
For people that don't need any of those mentioned it still keeps lightwave at a good price under 1k and there are people who don't need LWcad, RHpro, etc that are using vanilla lightwave in production with no issues.
They even use Screamernet. Lol

If lw did raise its base price then that would be a dumb move since these tools are native in other packages. Mesh and render booleans and these other "mesh sculpting"(ffd lattice) are native in other packages.

Ryan Roye
12-27-2014, 09:34 PM
So even adding LWcad, RHpro, TFD, 3rd powers, its still below 3k.

I should add that the majority of these commercial plugins don't charge for updates unless they contain major new features that are actually worth paying for. The price comparison is a moot point even factoring in the combined cost of all Lightwave commercial plugins because that additional cost is only incurred once and stays with the user perpetually.

There's also the idea that commercial plugins from Lightwave 3rd party developers are typically made by people who are experts in their field. This isn't to say that the LW3DG team isn't diverse in terms of expertise, it's just unrealistic to expect them to be focused in the same way 3rd party developers are. The best animation tools come from animators, the best modeling tools come from modelers... it's not rocket science :)

jeric_synergy
12-27-2014, 09:59 PM
Totally agree with you on all points synergy.
You can call me jeric.


They even use Screamernet. Lol
Oh, snap! :D

brent3d
12-27-2014, 10:28 PM
Modo is actually very primitive in terms of modelling. Its destructive in nature like modeller.
These tools from 3rd powers do exist natively in other appz and more with non-destructive workflow, but like I said.

The good thing is the base package price of lightwave is under 1k.
So even adding LWcad, RHpro, TFD, 3rd powers, its still below 3k.
For people that don't need any of those mentioned it still keeps lightwave at a good price under 1k and there are people who don't need LWcad, RHpro, etc that are using vanilla lightwave in production with no issues.
They even use Screamernet. Lol

If lw did raise its base price then that would be a dumb move since these tools are native in other packages. Mesh and render booleans and these other "mesh sculpting"(ffd lattice) are native in other packages.

"Functionality", I didn't say that other 3D suites didn't have what 3rd Powers is offering, but the way Modo goes about implementing them is way more fluid and intuitive. Destructive workflow, yup totally agree but that doesn't seem to deter the Modo and Lightwave user base.

- - - Updated - - -


I should add that the majority of these commercial plugins don't charge for updates unless they contain major new features that are actually worth paying for. The price comparison is a moot point even factoring in the combined cost of all Lightwave commercial plugins because that additional cost is only incurred once and stays with the user perpetually.

There's also the idea that commercial plugins from Lightwave 3rd party developers are typically made by people who are experts in their field. This isn't to say that the LW3DG team isn't diverse in terms of expertise, it's just unrealistic to expect them to be focused in the same way 3rd party developers are. The best animation tools come from animators, the best modeling tools come from modelers... it's not rocket science :)

Yup, yup, yup..thankyou for making it clear.

JohnMarchant
12-27-2014, 11:58 PM
And of course many plugins and scripts work over several versions of LW which is not always the case with other 3D Software.

Curly_01
12-28-2014, 01:15 AM
Hi, could you add instance painting on a terrain and 2 polychain fiberfx hair editing to LW Brush?

spherical
12-28-2014, 01:39 AM
Surrealist come on now, you can't go around comparing 3d apps to each other without regarding the amount of development, resources, and end cost to the user (it's like saying "my Mazda broke down so I just went and got a Porsche, hey it was worth the money). Who does that? but that's what you're actually saying you did. --snip-- So if you want LW to be like Maya then put your money where your mouth is and start donating to the LW3DG, that's right just start paying double everything or triple so they can hire more developers and marketing staff since you have so much money to throw around. If not then yours and others posts are just an attempt to create dissension in the LW ranks to further the grip of the monopoly, but hey I could be wrong.

Then, so am I. Pretty much predictable, eh? But, that's to be expected when a lot of $$$ has been spent and one needs to feel that their decision was a good one; and they'll defend it to the death. Just sayin'. Hey, don't get me wrong, we all want/do the same... to one extent or another. It's the extent and frequency that rubs.

jeric_synergy
12-28-2014, 01:55 AM
Hi, could you add instance painting on a terrain and 2 polychain fiberfx hair editing to LW Brush?
Who are you talking to?

pinkmouse
12-28-2014, 03:28 AM
Plugins are standard for all 3D applications and very cost effective for the user, so where are you guys getting your logic from big corporations?

Don't be silly. I love LW, as anyone who's ever seen any of my presentations to the London LWUG will testify, and I'll continue to use it, (and assorted plugins). But, it's slowly falling further and further behind the competition in core functionality and LW3DG knows it. Why else the price drop for the base version of 2015?

Kaptive
12-28-2014, 04:45 AM
Why else the price drop for the base version of 2015?

Shorter development cycle would seem to be the main answer when coupled with the name change.

Regarding other comments in the thread:
These plugins look very good, and will be worth their weight in time saving for many people. But when we talk about core functionality, the end results of this plugin can be achieved in LW... it just takes a bit/lot longer and requires different methods. So if this looks like it suits your style of working and it will speed up the kind of work you do, then it'll probably be worth it. But the thing is, we can't have everything in LWs core features. There are so many facets, that development in one area of LW can be completely redundent to a large slice of the userbase. How many people have held off upgrading to 2015 because (for example) they don't really do much character animation so Genoma 2 wasn't worth the upgrade. If LW3DG put in everything that makes up the core features of other software, LW would cost a fortune.

I personally feel that what they have tried to achieve since the 11 cycle is to make all things possible using LW as the central hub. All of the interchange features have expanded the functionality so we find less closed doors when specialising. Zbrush, Unity, AE, in and out. They have covered the bases that right now they can't or won't cover themselves from inside the package. Sometimes I feel that some folks out there just expect LW to simply have everything in it from the outset and also be at the same old price. Can't won't happen.

3rd party development doesn't have the same kind of long term development security of in house developed tools. Everyone had Fprime more or less, and it was (and still is for certain things) great... but we have VPR now, and so Fprime as the test bed has faded away and is no longer developed. Worley made his money and the LW community had a new requirement for their regular workflow that was filled by VPR. I suspect that if the LWBrush tools become equally essential, we will eventually see a native version, and 3rd powers will move on to other things that push the boundaries even further and plugging new holes yet unfilled.

All this talk of LW3DG should just buy 3rd powers... well I imagine that 3rd Powers probably don't really want to be bought and owned by another company. It'd probably mean moving home, state, country, and loss of being their own boss with their own choices. It could happen, but it isn't probably a realistic idea. However, close and friendly communication between the 3rd party devs and LW3DGroup (using NDAs) would probably be a very good thing. The more LW3DG can support the 3rd party devs the better. They rely on each other and it is symbiotic.

Anyways, I'll just say that these tools look great and well developed, so congrats on the work (if you're reading this) 3rd power. I'll look at investing in spring when a bit of character work is meant to be coming in. It'll probably be pretty useful.

jasonwestmas
12-28-2014, 05:28 AM
What i know for sure is that youre gonna pay 4 Times more maya (No plugins) over the course of 4 years. Because of the fact There is an upgrade every year and the lw upgrade takes a long while to reach the finish line. So the porsche analogy rings true.

OnlineRender
12-28-2014, 06:09 AM
personally I am just happy to see people develop & write for LW ... you could easily choose another platform with the potential to make more money.

prometheus
12-28-2014, 06:33 AM
One thing that worries me about third party stuff though, what if they go away? accident happens, they could get other things to do, or they just shut it down...then things are sort of back to square one, and for some that could mean the plugin might not be available for purchase even.
I miss the dynamite & ogo taiki development...cantarcan gone with the wind...the other I have no idea.

So things like a sculpt tool...built in the main program is what I would prefer to see..at least some basic stuff to match modo scultp for instance.
3rd powers tools which seem to work like a cage deformer too, that is great stuff though.

It is understandable if developers feel the need to work for their own, which might respect their own development agenda and having more freedoom to do so, though ..one might feel that a developed tool may be safer under the wings of the main software developers.

Michael

Surrealist.
12-28-2014, 07:08 AM
Surrealist come on now.

Lino, one of the LW developers, asked a question, I answered it. Everyone else seemed to take it as Rhetorical. I thought he actually wanted to know what a LghtWave user would consider when adding up the cost of software and plugins because it was brought up. Maybe I was mistaken. But that was my answer.

Further, the way I choose software and where to put my money is based on what tools exist currently. I take a lot of time and effort to choose software. I am very careful, and thorough in my search. Money does not come easy and I do not throw my money at anything.

So I decide based on my pocket book first and second what tools exist that I can currently afford. Not on hopes or dreams or claims from software companies about what they plan to do.

It took me no less than 2 solid years of search to arrive at Maya. This is after over 10 years with LightWave and about 4 years with Blender. My search took me through full time 2 month study of Messiah and long term study and use of Softimage. Also a return to LightWave for version 11. As well as a run with Modo and a real good look at Houdini to see what Character Animation tools it had. C4D was out of my price range based on features. As was Houdini. The educational versions of Autodesk products were instrumental in my search. I spent months learning XSI before finally deciding to purchase it. I used my commercial version in production for a year before deciding to switch to Maya and upgrade to a suite where I now am as my main software.

I have gone the route of counting pennies and trying to piece together software from existing cheap or free tools. I have lived a lot of years very very poor indeed. I know what that is about. There was a time when I could only afford Blender. I used that software to fight and claw myself up as a freelance artist to the point where I had money saved to search around. I worked real hard to get to this point.

Then from literately an exhaustive lengthy search I wound up with the conclusion for me, what software has what, that I need and want out of the box. And I found that to be Maya. I am not alone.

And I am not the first and only LightWave old time user (since 1993) who has jumped ship so to speak.

So Lino wanted to know - so I thought - some honest feedback. And that is mine.

Yes. I did add up the cost of plugins and software. Because no. I don't have money to toss around. I am very careful. And I find it is better to start with a software that has more of what I need - a modern workflow and modern tools - out of the box. This is why I initially switched to Bender back in 2008. And that was frankly because I was broke and had no other options.

So how does this relate to LightWave?

Well frankly, their financial problems are not mine. I have no interest in charity.

But I would suggest taking up some of the suggestions made here. To hire these developers and do what other software companies do which is to snatch up plugins and include them in the software. (The new modeling tools in Maya come to mind. Very nice to have included) And don't let people like David Ideka go.

As for the rest of it they are already doing what they can. And a good job.

But if they want to ask challenging questions like the one Lino posed, I fail to see how an honest answer would be shunned or then in turn challenged. That is just silly.

Rather than challenge the answer look to ways to incorporate honest responses and find ways to adapt and include this feedback into future plans. Assuming certain fiscal realities of course. That is a given.

Surrealist.
12-28-2014, 07:13 AM
personally I am just happy to see people develop & write for LW ... you could easily choose another platform with the potential to make more money.

Truth be spoken, these guys are from Japan where as far as I understand there is still a thriving LW market. I believe because there has always been such great 3P support there. Between Denis and the Japanese, it saves LightWave's *** so to speak.

Netvudu
12-28-2014, 07:48 AM
I find it interesting that when facing comparisons between LW and other software packages, everybody counts in plugins for the OTHERS.
For instance, 3ds Max always sounds like it had V-Ray, Rayfire, FumeFX and Krakatoa (and maybe Thinking Particles), Ornatrix or anything else as a stock when this is far from true.
Same thing with Maya. It has the fame of being a self-contained package but that is only true for big studios. The average user needs a lot of plugins for dynamics (which off-the-shelf are woeful), hair and/or once again a decent and not obsolete render engine. Just ask around what Maya users are using for their everyday dynamics and youīll get lots of "Pulldown it" or "Fracture FX", or for hair "Yeti". I donīt hear any Maya users complaining about "Myarmy" or "Golaem" being plugins for crowds instead of being part of the main package? Why? Because they know Autodesk wonīt hear?

Modoīs big new feature for this year, Meshfusion, costs 400$, and Modo is already the same price as Lightwave.

Yet, when we get great plugins such as this one, some people will still complain that they arenīt part of the main package? I donīt get some people....

Surrealist.
12-28-2014, 08:00 AM
No that is not the point. The point made was that in order to get what other packages have out of the box you have to spring for plugins in LW. That is another argument. No one is in denial or discounting the general use of plugins.

That said, as I mentioned it is not entirely apples to apples as both LW Cad and RH tools bring unique things to the table.

The issue remains however is that to get some of the basic functionality in other apps you have to get these plugins. And this is a valid and very big deal in my book when considering the use of software. And it is not just the money it is the workflow.

Another thing still not addressed in LW or a stable plugin that I am aware of is the ability to pant weights in Layout. It has been tried by a 3P developer but as far as I know it is not that stable or useable.

Not everyone wants to deal with painting in Modeler or only using bones and hold bones in Layout.

So when/if this ever arrives. If it is a 3P plugin the same argument will be made and it is a good one.

robertoortiz
12-28-2014, 08:02 AM
I find it interesting that when facing comparisons between LW and other software packages, everybody counts in plugins for the OTHERS.
For instance, 3ds Max always sounds like it had V-Ray, Rayfire, FumeFX and Krakatoa (and maybe Thinking Particles), Ornatrix or anything else as a stock when this is far from true.
Same thing with Maya. It has the fame of being a self-contained package but that is only true for big studios. The average user needs a lot of plugins for dynamics (which off-the-shelf are woeful), hair and/or once again a decent and not obsolete render engine. Just ask around what Maya users are using for their everyday dynamics and youīll get lots of "Pulldown it" or "Fracture FX", or for hair "Yeti". I donīt hear any Maya users complaining about "Myarmy" or "Golaem" being plugins for crowds instead of being part of the main package? Why? Because they know Autodesk wonīt hear?

Modoīs big new feature for this year, Meshfusion, costs 400$, and Modo is already the same price as Lightwave.

Yet, when we get great plugins such as this one, some people will still complain that they arenīt part of the main package? I donīt get some people....


Good Point. Maybe Newtek could make the process of plugin implementation more seamless.
(like a search/buy in button within the app connected to their plugin database).
If people buy a plugin THIS WAY, they could get a cut of the sales.

prometheus
12-28-2014, 09:13 AM
Yet, when we get great plugins such as this one, some people will still complain that they arenīt part of the main package? I donīt get some people....

modo is almost the same price as lightwave..modo has that sculpting package out of the box..lightwave do not, that is a fact..I would like to see it..and have been waiting for it for a long time..every since the core debacle..the core tech was said...by rob powers in statement..he was convinced the tech should be able to be implemented in lightwave..wether or not it was just a little part of it..or all stuff showcased at that time? that I have no clue about, it sounded in my ears like almost all stuff at least.

The sculpt tool I still wait for, which was there many years ago in core..though with poor performance compared to modo sculpt.

but I shouldnīt have to go to that debate..it is what it is, the 3rd powers sculpting tools seem to offer other features that modo sculpting might not have..which of course is interesting, then thereīs a question on comparing performance between the two of them, speed and workflow etc.

Maybe a brush sculpt tool still might be in the plans..who knows?
Personally I think that implementing universal brush tools..also in layout will boost..and should boost lightwave to where it needs to be, it includes painting weightmaps in layout, fast deformation of items in layout, spraying particles and instances, paint weight maps or texture maps for use with hypervoxels and particle emission, and further on...to use with fluid emission with plugins like turbulenceFD.
At least I hope they try to go for it..if it will be possible or not? I canīt say...but I hope they aim high.

Edited...I donīt know, Maybe this brush tool from 3rd powers has so much more cool features when compared to modoīs standard brush tools, that it is justified to purchase it seperatly, so it simply doesnīt matter if it is out of the box in lightwave or if it is a standalone plugin, I will have to wait and see what is showcased later on.

Michael

jasonwestmas
12-28-2014, 09:48 AM
Yeah i see a lot of really nice things added to lw, yet Im still gonna be stuck in another application because of deformation and weighting tools. I probably do more skinning of weights than anything else esp. For video games. I simply dont have the time to wrestle with deformations. When are these tools coming?

lightscape
12-28-2014, 10:07 AM
One thing that worries me about third party stuff though, what if they go away?

That's pretty common other appz as well. Some devs are just flaky. So its not exlusive to lightwave. We use 3dmax and maya but we really only use the top 5 must have plugins. We don't rely too much on thirdparty plugin because of the same concerns and because some functionality are native already. Ofcourse with the price tag of top tier 3d appz they should have it. With lightwave being below 1k its understandable that things move slower.

Brent, plugin provide THE Functionality.

jasonwestmas
12-28-2014, 10:17 AM
Usually the deal with Maya and Max is that it has everything you need and it does it in a fair amount of time. If you want the really good stuff that does the same thing but faster you can do that for a price. But what I don't see in Maya and Max is a completely new set of deformers sold as third party. That stuff should be considered core and rudimentary.

jeric_synergy
12-28-2014, 10:27 AM
Ugh, so many posters contradicting each other. :devil:

The obvious solution is a CHART, with equivalent plugins grouped together and prices attached. Then we'd have NUMBERS instead of nebulous assertions.

Meanwhile, perhaps we can talk about LW-Brush?

jasonwestmas
12-28-2014, 10:39 AM
Ugh, so many posters contradicting each other. :devil:

The obvious solution is a CHART, with equivalent plugins grouped together and prices attached. Then we'd have NUMBERS instead of nebulous assertions.

Meanwhile, perhaps we can talk about LW-Brush?

I already said that it looked cool. We can't use it yet. :)

Autodesk tools are more expensive but have core tools that users don't have to pay additional money for, some of us already know all that.

prometheus
12-28-2014, 10:45 AM
That's pretty common other appz as well. Some devs are just flaky. So its not exlusive to lightwave. We use 3dmax and maya but we really only use the top 5 must have plugins. We don't rely too much on thirdparty plugin because of the same concerns and because some functionality are native already. Ofcourse with the price tag of top tier 3d appz they should have it. With lightwave being below 1k its understandable that things move slower.

Brent, plugin provide THE Functionality.

True...but that was not the perspective I was looking at it from, more like..should the lightwave team disregard developing a brush tool out of the box..because there is a third party plugin, or should it be considered a tool that deserves to be made within the lightwave group to ensure we indeed can access that tool, regardless of what happens to the third party developer, the 3dmax,maya VS lightwave..that wasnīt my perspective on it.

ernpchan
12-28-2014, 10:55 AM
They did that with instancing. There was HDInstance, then Denis' plugins and then the native option. I guess it depends if they see a tool as being so essential that it should be native.

rwhunt99
12-28-2014, 11:44 AM
I like these tools, what bothers me is after buying them; when you upgrade, sometimes you end up having to upgrade all your plugins especially if your version won't work with the latest. With them built in, the upgrade takes care of all that with one price. With the extensive work (supposedly) being done to modeler, I would be leery of shelling out for these plugins and then having to upgrade again for the next version of LW.
Another thing when LWgroup came out with it's plugins (specifically chronosculpt), it was like giving you a plugin (instancing) and then saying, you have to buy this plugin to get it to work right for you. Just seems a conflict of interest to me. I could see it built in and selling it as a stand alone for people with other packages, but it just didn't sit well with me.
Rob Powers said he was working hard to open up with the port to python for outside parties to get involved with creating plugins for Lightwave and that seems to be working out pretty well. I just worry that the product itself might be devolving, especially with the latest price decrease. Although for me it just seems to be a point upgrade, not a full upgrade and the price change kind of justifies that thinking.

prometheus
12-28-2014, 12:37 PM
They did that with instancing. There was HDInstance, then Denis' plugins and then the native option. I guess it depends if they see a tool as being so essential that it should be native.

As far as I know...these major General apps do have a sculpt tool...

Maya
houdini
cinema 4d
modo
blender
3d max..(I think)

Lightwave doesnīt, not sure why it havenīt reached the state of not being out of the box yet, at some point they must have sort of recognized it as valuable (being in core)
Has there been too much difficult coding in the implementation? then again 3rd powers seem to show otherwise...but maybe his tools showing up..just recently became possible thanks to the recent lightwave changes? I donīt know?

Then we have chronosculpt....

I recall asking if chronoculpt shouldnīt be implemented in lightwave directly, but some guys at the lw team said ..no it aint gonna happen, then I asked myself why? is the foundation core in Lightwave limiting it ..not making it possible? or is it a marketing approach to withhold that tech, just to be able to sell it as a plugin available for other platforms too...if so, that is an approach I am not comfortable with, but..itīs not my decision how they conduct business and I can only speculate about it, I am not asking for everything in chronosculpt to be Inside of Lightwave (or maybe I do:devil:) the main functionality for sculpting at least.

Time will tell within the next releases I think.

the sculpting tool between modo and houdini, based on my testing..modo feels much, much better, max or cinema I havenīt tried...and maya was a long time I got a chance to test anything in, I suspect cinema4d sculpting might be the best one out there...based on what I can see solely though.
zbrush,3dcoat,sculptris..or wings3d I will count out of the discussion..since they are mostly just modeling and specialized at what they do.

Surrealist.
12-28-2014, 12:51 PM
Blender sculpt is like a very light weight Mudbox or Zbrush.

Maya is a geometry sculpt and I suppose you could use it in a very limited way for sculpting on a high res mesh. But I find it handy for fine tuning organic modeling.

The sculpt function in this plugin to me looks more like drag net. I am not really sure how it is different. I'd have to see more. But from the video it looks like the same circular fall off you get with point radial.

prometheus
12-28-2014, 12:56 PM
yeah...the sculpt function looks more like a sculpt dragnet function..but I donīt know really, if it actually can sculpt like modo or cinema, at a lower mesh level perhaps...
I just tested modo recently for the first time with sculpting..and I like the base function of it at least..sculpts decently, and the way I would want it in Lightwave..it would help out so much for rock and terrain work, if you are obsessed with that...that is.

wings3d has a tweak tool, like lightwaves tweak tool, but you can set a magnet falloff..by right clicking and set the radius..so you have a sort of soft selection influence when you pick and drag the tweak, so it looks similar to
this simingly dragnet function from 3rd powers.
The problem with wings3d sculpting..it is too slow on higher mesh detail.

Michael

HenrikSkoglund
12-28-2014, 04:01 PM
WOW! Just saw this thread, seems like a fast plugin indeed!

Netvudu
12-28-2014, 05:02 PM
...Usually the deal with Maya and Max is that it has everything you need and it does it in a fair amount of time. If you want the really good stuff that does the same thing but faster you can do that for a price. But what I don't see in Maya and Max is a completely new set of deformers sold as third party. That stuff should be considered core and rudimentary....

...Autodesk tools are more expensive but have core tools that users don't have to pay additional money for, some of us already know all that...

that is simply not true.

Almost all the MAX plugins I mentioned above have functionality that you can NOT do in vanilla MAX. Thereīs no fluids container sims in Max, nor point duplication at render times. Some of that stuff is NOT there.
Thereīs no crowd simulations module in Maya at all. You cannot replicate what Myarmy or Golaem does. You can instance character over particles, which is very very far from a state machine.
So, no....not every functionality is there. In fact I would go as far as saying that Max is way more expensive and has off-the-shelf LESS functionality than Lightwave by far.

cresshead
12-28-2014, 07:47 PM
that is simply not true.

Almost all the MAX plugins I mentioned above have functionality that you can NOT do in vanilla MAX. Thereīs no fluids container sims in Max, nor point duplication at render times. Some of that stuff is NOT there.
Thereīs no crowd simulations module in Maya at all. You cannot replicate what Myarmy or Golaem does. You can instance character over particles, which is very very far from a state machine.
So, no....not every functionality is there. In fact I would go as far as saying that Max is way more expensive and has off-the-shelf LESS functionality than Lightwave by far.

i think you both have valid points
i've used max since 1999...it's NEVER shipped with a good renderer..even mental ray right now pretty much sucks for a lot of things..it's no where near modo...so i move most of my stuff out of max and render in modo for example.
so yeh 3ds max in MY opinion doesn't have a decent renderer as you buy the base app.

however..it's pretty good at alot of other things...but NOT fluids and crowd systems!

robertoortiz
12-28-2014, 08:02 PM
This is great I do hope they continue this paradigm also for character animation LW. for example the in house animation software developed by Dreamworks uses a tablet to animate in 3d. http://www.toonzone.net/2014/07/dreamworks-animation-debuts-new-animation-software-dragon-sequel/

jasonwestmas
12-28-2014, 08:07 PM
Fair enough In some markets but i believe i was thinking oVf common animation tasks like deformer stacking, cloth that works Well with characters, Hair styling, hair shading and hair dynamics that are dependable. Very nice constraints, cage and lattice deformers robust animation layers and mixers.should have been more specific but i Did throw in the word "usually" Not "all the time".
Perhaps to some artists fluids and state machines are considered fundamental practices I guess its unfair To label such things as essential or niche markets.

Greenlaw
12-28-2014, 08:58 PM
It's really pretty easy: you just ask yourself, do I really need this tool to do my job now? Will it help me work more efficiently and more cost effectively than I'm doing right now. If you answered 'yes' to these questions, then it's a no-brainer. (Well, except that this tool is not actually available yet, but you know what I mean.)

If there's any question about whether you should or shouldn't get any third-party plugins, then you probably don't really need them. That's the beauty of third party tools--many are specialty tools and they are completely optional. While it's valid to think that that LW3D may eventually add similar features natively (if not bundle/integrate the third-party tool itself,) you can't count on that, especially if you have an immediate need for such tools.

I, for one, am all set to click that 'buy' button when it appears. The previous 3rd Powers suite was incredibly useful to me in my freelance work this past year, especially the interactive Boolean tool, followed by the Lattice Deformer tool. I'm really looking forward to this Brush tool, especially the knife/slicing mode--I can think of a dozen recent situations where I could have used that one.

G

lightscape
12-28-2014, 10:49 PM
i think you both have valid points
i've used max since 1999...it's NEVER shipped with a good renderer..even mental ray right now pretty much sucks for a lot of things..it's no where near modo...so i move most of my stuff out of max and render in modo for example.
so yeh 3ds max in MY opinion doesn't have a decent renderer as you buy the base app.

however..it's pretty good at alot of other things...but NOT fluids and crowd systems!

Mentalray was pretty good up to max 2009. Its not as easy to use as lightwave renderer but it was capable and the quality was there. Vray is just too good now to consider mentalray.
Max is like lightwave but with more flexibility with its modifier stack and the platform that almost every other software/game supported which is the most important aspect of multi app, multi project type studios.
Even obscure iphone appz supported I/O from 3dmax. 3dmax was the central hub which lightwave is trying to do with goz, goae, etc. You can't say the same thing with other software back then. It doesnt do fancy fluids or complex ai crowd sims but that market is very small and most of the high end vfx studios went bankrupt and strugging in a cheaper environment.

Julez4001
12-28-2014, 11:33 PM
Curious
IS the present 3rd powers tool available to the node editor for further manipulation?

Greenlaw
12-29-2014, 07:30 AM
Do you mean the Lattice and Cage tools? They operate inside their own interface/timeline, which is the one aspect I don't like because the key frames are not accessible to graph editor, etc. The deformations do work with other displacement methods though. I don't think I've combined it with nodal deformations but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

I've mainly used Lattice for deforming points and meshes for Instancer emitters, and I had some procedural displacement to randomize it. I don't think I was using nodal though.

If you're wondering if the 3rd Powers tools themselves are available as nodal tools, no they're not. Would be cool though.

ianr
01-07-2015, 06:37 AM
ITS OUT LW BRUSH @ $129 for 14 tools
now that ain't bad coin, gentlemen!
GO PACK bundle @ $299 again.

Lets hope Mashiro get's it up on 3rd party LW page

bobakabob
01-07-2015, 06:39 AM
Wow, great news Ian and Happy New Year :)

Ryan Roye
01-07-2015, 07:00 AM
ITS OUT LW BRUSH @ $129 for a14 tools

http://i.imgur.com/1Sk0c.jpg

3djock
01-07-2015, 07:39 AM
Great looking tools the Mini Me Zbrush. Well worth it if you ask me..:thumbsup:

Greenlaw
01-07-2015, 08:50 AM
Excellent! Thanks for the heads up. :)

ianr
01-07-2015, 09:29 AM
i've put a Thread up on the Thirdparty Forum Folder,
with links. Just-in-case you want to 'party' over there.
Cos Modeler Lurv needs exposure,Yes indeed!


( wow! Ryan i see U got FiberFx's working in your Vid) lol

bobakabob
01-07-2015, 02:29 PM
Have just tried the Grab Brush and it's like a turbo charged Magnet tool that seems to automatically detect surfaces. Great for facial expression morphs.
The first pic took much longer without this tool - the second pic isn't very subtle but it only took a few seconds to create and is far more intuitive and expressive.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/55/185991847_4dc5687be4_b.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/78/186033519_7744d3704a_b.jpg

Greenlaw
01-07-2015, 03:01 PM
That's amazing, especially to be able to do this quickly in Modeler. Thanks for the show and tell.

erikals
01-07-2015, 03:02 PM
Yes! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/king.gif

i had a strong feeling it had to be excellent for creating those kind of morphs... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

LWB Slide must also to a certain degree be nice for skin slide...

prometheus
01-07-2015, 03:57 PM
I need someone to show me if it actually works similar to a brush sculpting tool..like modoīs internal sculpt for instance, or if it is a little different?

Michael

djwaterman
01-07-2015, 05:40 PM
I think it is quite different judging from the video, not really a sculpting tool as we know them to be (no fine detail or textures), but it is awesome in it's own way.

erikals
01-07-2015, 05:56 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.pngprometheus
I need someone to show me if it actually works similar to a brush sculpting tool..like modoīs internal sculpt for instance, or if it is a little different?


no, it doesn't "animate" in the normal direction if the mouse button is held down, also not pressure sensitive afaik.

so it's quite different in that regard.
still, very useful, and much better for tweaking face endomorphs etc...

i do second your request though... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

prometheus
01-07-2015, 06:59 PM
no, it doesn't "animate" in the normal direction if the mouse button is held down, also not pressure sensitive afaik.

so it's quite different in that regard.
still, very useful, and much better for tweaking face endomorphs etc...

i do second your request though... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

Thatīs what I am a little "afraid of" not sure if this Better "drag tool" will help me sculpt terrain and rock..and be useful for that equal to letīs say a modo sculpt tool, or if it is just more adapted for morph creations.
My focus and choice of use will be the former ..and not so much face morphs, even though that probably will be handy, I am more interested in the terrain and landscape tweaking, and in scene context...meaning not only in modeler but in direct context with other landscape elements in the scene without going back and forth between modeler and guessing things.

I am sure this might be a great tool for some, but for me...have to wait and see how the community percieves it...and what the feedback will be.

jeric_synergy
01-07-2015, 07:23 PM
Thatīs what I am a little "afraid of"....
Dude, you sure can find the rhinestones in the pile of diamonds. :\

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GO PACK bundle @ $299 again.
That's been its price ever since the introduction, correct??

prometheus
01-07-2015, 07:59 PM
Dude, you sure can find the rhinestones in the pile of diamonds. :\

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's been its price ever since the introduction, correct??


:D yeah..pessimistic genetics, sins of our fathers...sometimes it indeed shows:hey: depends on if I got the right dose when making the coffe in the morning.

I have never been able to tell if the cup is half full or half empty.

Dexter2999
01-07-2015, 08:13 PM
I have never been able to tell if the cup is half full or half empty.

HEY!! The cup is at half capacity! It's not the cups fault you can't make up your mind! The cup isn't responsible for your life choices! AND WHO SWITCHED THIS TO DECAF????!!!!!

prometheus
01-07-2015, 08:19 PM
HEY!! The cup is at half capacity! It's not the cups fault you can't make up your mind! The cup isn't responsible for your life choices!

Bummer, I thought it was 8/

I need a reality check.

You guys that are buying in to the plug, please kindly provide feedback and help me get back on the track of reality.

spherical
01-07-2015, 11:19 PM
I have never been able to tell if the cup is half full or half empty.

The cup is too big. :D

blackmondy
01-07-2015, 11:41 PM
If this works in Layout it would be awesome !

jeric_synergy
01-07-2015, 11:59 PM
You guys that are buying in to the plug, please kindly provide feedback and help me get back on the track of reality.
Those are useful-- the reports on 2015 have been very well recieved.

bobakabob
01-08-2015, 06:37 AM
If this works in Layout it would be awesome !

LW Brush is for Modeler and having just spent a few minutes with it, it allows you to model very quickly in a free expressive way. It is like an 'intelligent' highly versatile Magnet tool as it identifies surfaces automatically so your workflow isn't interrupted switching between groups of polys.

However 3rd Powers have created solutions to enable working on geometry and manipulating points in Layout (previously next to impossible apart from the worthy but clunky MiniMo plugin). Check out their Cage and Lattice plugins. These are very Maya style tools and allow for much more creative animation.

prometheus
01-08-2015, 09:20 AM
LW Brush is for Modeler and having just spent a few minutes with it, it allows you to model very quickly in a free expressive way. It is like an 'intelligent' highly versatile Magnet tool as it identifies surfaces automatically so your workflow isn't interrupted switching between groups of polys.

However 3rd Powers have created solutions to enable working on geometry and manipulating points in Layout (previously next to impossible apart from the worthy but clunky MiniMo plugin). Check out their Cage and Lattice plugins. These are very Maya style tools and allow for much more creative animation.

Yeah..those other tools are great too, for one case scenario though, I need to edit single points in the same way as adding and moving nulls, not sure if those deformers letīs me do that, probably not adding points.
you see..nulls can only be seen by hypervoxels as one single instance, you canīt add two or more and move around as you like for clouds, and have them using the same hv instance...and thus they become to slow to calculate for the hypervoxels system when they take on their own additional light to calculate, as opposed to if they were points or particles.

there are workarounds to use particle fx edit tool, and hard fx and edit, but it isnīt good enough, so I either need a way to add points in layout, and move around as I see fit, or they have to IMPROVE on hypervoxels, where you can make nulls a group that only uses the same hypervoxel instance.

Michael

Ryan Roye
01-08-2015, 09:27 AM
Yeah..those other tools are great too, for one case scenario though, I need to edit single points in the same way as adding and moving nulls, not sure if those deformers letīs me do that

Add a bone or joint for the cage that refers to a weight map that references the point you want, this will work on top of sculpted deformations. If the points are spread out enough, you won't even need a weight map. Otherwise, the drag tool in Cage/Lattice deformers lets you edit single points.

jeric_synergy
01-08-2015, 09:44 AM
Add a bone or joint for the cage that refers to a weight map that references the point you want, this will work on top of sculpted deformations. If the points are spread out enough, you won't even need a weight map. Otherwise, the drag tool in Cage/Lattice deformers lets you edit single points.
There are even scripts that will do this automatically: add a weighted bone to every point in a mesh.

I know because I altered Corey's network animation in just such a fashion, and it's certain that I didn't write those scripts.

prometheus
01-08-2015, 10:00 AM
Add a bone or joint for the cage that refers to a weight map that references the point you want, this will work on top of sculpted deformations. If the points are spread out enough, you won't even need a weight map. Otherwise, the drag tool in Cage/Lattice deformers lets you edit single points.

will have to check up on the drag tool then, It need to be able to edit only the single point I click on without affecting close by points when I move the one point.
setting up bones and weigths to control the points feels a little tedious to work with.

So the only thing left missing, that is direct point creation and deletion in layout...though if they can fix hypervoxels to work with nulls in a group, none of the above is necessary to mess around with...at least not for this case scenario anyway.

I am about to test modo sculpting of particles/points for use with volumetrics.

Michael

prometheus
01-08-2015, 10:02 AM
There are even scripts that will do this automatically: add a weighted bone to every point in a mesh.

I know because I altered Corey's network animation in just such a fashion, and it's certain that I didn't write those scripts.

whereīs that script?

jeric_synergy
01-08-2015, 10:24 AM
Offhand I don't recall (not doing much nowadays), but I'd search for something like, eg, "Point2Bone.lsc" or along those lines.

If you Search here for my thread on "Adding a bone at every point", there might be more details there. (This is why I should write tutes, so I cement the process in my memory.)

ernpchan
01-08-2015, 11:03 PM
Offhand I don't recall (not doing much nowadays), but I'd search for something like, eg, "Point2Bone.lsc" or along those lines.

If you Search here for my thread on "Adding a bone at every point", there might be more details there. (This is why I should write tutes, so I cement the process in my memory.)

I've done this in Modeler by extruding the points of a model and then converting them to skelegons. Not as automatic as a script. I did this to create a faux lattice for Mr. Sun on Ni-Hao at Nick.

jeric_synergy
01-09-2015, 02:55 AM
Here we go: the thread (Prom, many suggestions in this thread)

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?141802-Put-a-bone-WITH-weight-map-at-every-point-of-a-%28sparse%29-object

Apparently I used Particle clone, but Joe Poe had a different, better? plugin. While it turned out that I didn't need individual w.maps for every point --no doubt THAT would get old fast-- I suppose it could be nice. Even necessary for some esoteric application.

One of those scripts had source code w/it so theoretically could be altered.

prometheus
01-09-2015, 08:55 AM
Here we go: the thread (Prom, many suggestions in this thread)

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?141802-Put-a-bone-WITH-weight-map-at-every-point-of-a-%28sparse%29-object

Apparently I used Particle clone, but Joe Poe had a different, better? plugin. While it turned out that I didn't need individual w.maps for every point --no doubt THAT would get old fast-- I suppose it could be nice. Even necessary for some esoteric application.

One of those scripts had source code w/it so theoretically could be altered.

Thanks...but, i wonder if it simply isnīt better to use the particle edit nod tool, and move around instead, since none of the options let me create a point inside of layout when working with it, think it will be better to
just add enough of particles for my "particle cloud" use the active VPR window and open GL overlay and edit the particles and move them ..or delete them, otherwise...just drop the attempts and wait for the lw team to do enhancement with hypervoxels to add nulls in a group for hypervoxels.
At least for this case.

sadkkf
01-09-2015, 01:40 PM
One thing that worries me about third party stuff though, what if they go away? accident happens, they could get other things to do, or they just shut it down...then things are sort of back to square one, and for some that could mean the plugin might not be available for purchase even.
I miss the dynamite & ogo taiki development...cantarcan gone with the wind...the other I have no idea.



Same here. I bought into Dynamite and some Dynamic Realities plugs a while back and now they're both dust in the wind.

IMO, Lightwave has some some ground to cover to compete with the big boys so keeping these tools in the hands of third party devs makes sense to me. Let the LW dev team focus on the essentials for now...bones, shaders, physics, particles, you name it...and let the individuals or smaller teams deliver the toys. When LW is in a better state let's talk about acquisitions.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, what are the requirements for this plugin? Do I need a Wacom or similar tablet?

jeric_synergy
01-09-2015, 02:07 PM
Thanks...but, i wonder if it simply isnīt better to {SNIP}
Whatever. Tell me when the goalposts quit moving.

prometheus
01-09-2015, 02:32 PM
Whatever. Tell me when the goalposts quit moving.

Thatīs not gonna happen.

bobakabob
01-09-2015, 03:01 PM
Software comes and goes, these tools are genius, just enjoy what we have now and appreciate the hard work and ingenuity of the creators.

ericsmith
01-09-2015, 04:52 PM
Hey, I wanted to chime in on my experience so far with LWBrush:

AddPoints - For me, this one's not much use compared to the native (I think?) Add edges tool. Mainly because it doesn't snap to corners.

BandGlue - Again, not a huge deal, as the native bandglue works fast enough, but if you want to do a bunch of them, it's nice to just click-drag and get it done.

BandSaw - This one's kind of interesting. While I would initially think that native EditEdges would be the proper choice, as it allows not only cutting new loops, but also moving current ones, as well as a bit more accuracy in which direction you want to cut, there's something about this one that just seems a bit faster and easier.

Extend - Simple, but a handy way to create quad geometry. It seems to me like they should have reversed the RMB/LMB controls, but once you know what it's doing, that's not a big deal. I'm not sure, but I think there are native tools (or perhaps some other 3rd party) that does the same thing, with perhaps a few more options.

Grab - This is one of the big ones. On the surface, it looks a lot like dragnet. But there's a few BIG improvements:
1. there's a checkbox to maintain surface detail. This acts almost like a cloth or soft dynamics effect, where it's much harder to crumple your surface into a mess when dragging the mesh through itself. This makes it much more intuitive to shape an organic surface than with the dragnet or magnet tools.
2. you can click and drag ANYWHERE on the mesh, not just on vertices. Honestly, for me this is HUGE. It makes massaging organic shapes so much easier and quicker, and makes it possible to freeform re-shape in smooth-shade mode.
Overall, while it seems simple, this tool is worth the purchase price alone.

Knife - The freeform drawing style of this tool is pretty cool, but normally when modeling, I would rather have the precision of add edges. But if you want to shatter something, and need hand-built control, the fact that you can work in solid mode is pretty handy. If I ever want to explode something, this will come in handy.

Merge - Like bandglue, not much more useful than just selecting polys and doing a Merge Polygons command (when mapped to a keyboard shortcut), but if you've got to do a lot at once, it could speed things up.

PushPull - This one is the "sculpt" tool that made everyone think it was like zbrush. It is handy, but also pretty simple. It's more about shaping than sculpting, if that makes sense.

Slide - I really like this one, specifically for the ability to make wrinkles.

Smooth - Although like PushPull it's a pretty simple tool, I think this one is enormously useful when dealing with dense subd's. It's so much more intuitive and fast than selecting polys and running the native smooth tool on them.

Split - Like AddPoints, there's not much point to this compared to the native toolset.

Topology - I don't normally do much retopologizing, so I'm not sure what to expect out of this tool. One the one hand, it seems very fast and easy. But I'm thinking it could use a bit more development. It doesn't seem to respect or interact with previously made geometry (even without having dropped the tool), so you can't really "grow" new topology in multiple passes. At least not without having to manually merge the edges together, anyways. Although I could be wrong on this, as I've only dabbled with it for a few minutes. What would probably be nice is if they could figure out some way of merging this tool with Extend.

Translate - Not a big deal, but it could be handy if you're doing "set styling" kind of stuff. It would be much cooler if it could raycast onto surrounding (or background) geometry.

Unweld - Once more, not terribly more useful than native methods, but it is a bit more convenient. I will probably like this more if I can get in the habit of using it.

Although it may seem like I'm downplaying the value of some of the tools in this suite, overall, these guys are making tools that really rock. The cage and lattice deformers are very cool for layout, and the metamesh is another modeling powerhouse. This new one continues the trend of making tools for Lightwave that really help me get actual work done easier and quicker. Anyone that does organic modeling will find this new set of tools incredibly worthwile.

Eric

jasonwestmas
01-10-2015, 09:25 AM
It's kinda interesting that I have a copy of maya, modo, zbrush, chronosculpt and lightwave and yet I still would have to buy plugins to get a slide/elastic brush lol. 3DCoat has the Tweak/Smudge brush that actually does slide verts along normals. Unfortunately it is kinda annoying because the brush suddenly looses influence after you push the vertexes a short distance no matter the brush settings.

I like the looks of this LW brush, I may get it to create endomorphs for TAFA.

Oedo 808
01-10-2015, 10:14 AM
Does the smooth brush have a mode where it can just relax and not alter the volume of a mesh?


Also, what are the requirements for this plugin? Do I need a Wacom or similar tablet?

I doubt they work any differently with a pen than with a mouse, but if they did take pressure into account, that would be very good. Someone else will have to confirm this though.

jasonwestmas
01-10-2015, 10:53 AM
Does the smooth brush have a mode where it can just relax and not alter the volume of a mesh?



I doubt they work any differently with a pen than with a mouse, but if they did take pressure into account, that would be very good. Someone else will have to confirm this though.

I think the closest thing to relaxing is smoothing the edgeflow without ruining the silhouette? Probably just using the slide tool would be the best equivalent. I'll check that out later.

Oedo 808
01-10-2015, 12:32 PM
I think the closest thing to relaxing is smoothing the edgeflow without ruining the silhouette? Probably just using the slide tool would be the best equivalent. I'll check that out later.

Yeah, just relaxing the point distribution without smoothing out the angles, I just thought that could be something it might be capable of seeing as how the tools behaved. Also, I don't think so going by some comments but is there any way to constraint movement as you would with other move tools with the Ctrl key held?

Cheers.

wibly wobly
01-10-2015, 02:10 PM
This brush tool is bloody fantastic. I just picked up the whole lot of the set of 3rdPowers plugins today, taking advantage of the sale for myself at home. Wow. These are great. I really like how easily you can change their properties on the fly. They're really nice from what I'm seeing right off the bat. I hope there's more coming from these guys in the future because so far these are really welcome additions.

jasonwestmas
01-10-2015, 05:30 PM
Yeah, just relaxing the point distribution without smoothing out the angles, I just thought that could be something it might be capable of seeing as how the tools behaved. Also, I don't think so going by some comments but is there any way to constraint movement as you would with other move tools with the Ctrl key held?

Cheers.

well the good news is that you can mask out the areas of influence by making polygon,edge and point selections. So if you don't want an edge to be smoothed then don't select it. There is also a feature in the numeric panel for smooth which is called "Fix outer Edges". If you are working on a piece of geometry that is not a solid volume, the edges of the geometry that are not welded to anything will not be smoothed. There is another option for smooth called "Relax polygons" which is on by default. If you turn it off then the harsher angles in the edge-flow are not disturbed much at all which is the opposite of relaxing. So I guess it is smoothing but not smoothing the topology angles. Seems little useless to turn off Relax.

And no there is no pressure sensitivity for the wacom. The strength of the tool comes from a slider in the numeric panel.

Oedo 808
01-10-2015, 06:05 PM
Thanks for the feedback Jason :)

I seem to use smoothing a lot in LightWave, I couldn't say why I just know I always have that tool on the go. A lot of the brush tools look nice, it's just that after Christmas I'm like Scrooge, only before he is visited by the three spirits. :p

jasonwestmas
01-10-2015, 07:29 PM
Thanks for the feedback Jason :)

I seem to use smoothing a lot in LightWave, I couldn't say why I just know I always have that tool on the go. A lot of the brush tools look nice, it's just that after Christmas I'm like Scrooge, only before he is visited by the three spirits. :p

hehe, understood. I can see a lot of reasons for these brushes though, especially if you are dealing with endomorphs alot or need to layout or bend/smooth a lot of geometry quickly. That transform tool is so simple yet it's never been in modeler before, it's so nice not to have to select/deselect over and over again.

brent3d
01-10-2015, 08:46 PM
My first test of the LW Brush mesh sculpting and editing tools by 3rd Powers. Just using a mouse, Fix Symmetry tool, Lightwave 2015, and a laptop.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBxv7DKbvrI

Greenlaw
01-10-2015, 09:22 PM
I finally purchased my own copy of LW Brush. Wish I had done this a couple of weeks ago when I first decided to get it because I can really use these tools RIGHT NOW! :)

G.

Greenlaw
01-10-2015, 09:36 PM
My first test of the LW Brush mesh sculpting and editing tools by 3rd Powers. Just using a mouse, Fix Symmetry tool, Lightwave 2015, and a laptop.

That's very cool! Thanks for sharing the video.

Quick question: which fix symmetry tool are you using?

G.

Davewriter
01-10-2015, 11:06 PM
Brent - Wow!
A pretty big change there.
Thanks for the share!

Greenlaw
01-10-2015, 11:33 PM
Yay! Just got my key. No sleep for me tonight. :)

G.

SPICE
01-11-2015, 12:16 AM
Fantastic toolset
worth every penny

tonyrizo2003
01-11-2015, 01:19 AM
very cool!! Thanks for the demo!!

bobakabob
01-11-2015, 04:04 AM
Impressive demo there Brent. I'd say these tools have significantly enhanced organic modelling in LW. Modeler has always been strong in this dept but after using LW Brush this weekend I really wouldn't be without it. A key strength is the speed of the workflow, it's wonderfully intuitive and expressive.

A good example is tweaking eyelid morphs on a face - usually this is delicate work fiddling with vertices and / or selection sets but with with a few strokes of the Grab brush, which uncannily seems almost know what you're thinking, you're sorted. The speed of the process gives you much more space to experiment and add personality as it's not so mechanical.

erikals
01-11-2015, 05:25 AM
thanks for testing Eric & Brent... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

jeric_synergy
01-11-2015, 11:46 AM
My first test of the LW Brush mesh sculpting and editing tools by 3rd Powers. Just using a mouse, Fix Symmetry tool, Lightwave 2015, and a laptop.

Nice demo, thanks brend3d. (They should send you a t-shirt.) ;)

brent3d
01-11-2015, 10:44 PM
Glad the vid was helpful. Here is a brief walk-through of LW Brush mesh sculpting and the SymmXMirror (not Fix Symmetry) tool used in my LW Brush Mesh Sculpting Demo.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgluDZg1nVM

erikals
01-11-2015, 11:01 PM
hm... push/pull normal direction... didn't know... Nice! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/king.gif

Emmanuel
01-12-2015, 02:21 AM
How do CC SdS hold up in animation ? And its also obvious that this kind of sculpting barely holds up at minimum levels of subdivision. Its good for basic rough blocking a la Maya artisan, or for quicker changes for morphs, but please dont confuse this with a real sculpting tool. I bet its gonna be 200$, and at that price 3D coat is a better investment.

prometheus
01-12-2015, 04:12 AM
How do CC SdS hold up in animation ? And its also obvious that this kind of sculpting barely holds up at minimum levels of subdivision. Its good for basic rough blocking a la Maya artisan, or for quicker changes for morphs, but please dont confuse this with a real sculpting tool. I bet its gonna be 200$, and at that price 3D coat is a better investment.

yeah..but donīt the lw brush work in layout? in scene context..as opposed to zbrush goz and 3d coat.
Sort of why I wanīt a sculpting tool in layout...and why modoīs sculpt tool is interesting in a completly different way than 3d coat etc.

erikals
01-12-2015, 04:24 AM
the only way to do it in Layout at the moment is to use this technique >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyk6pV15nSI

or, use the 32bit LayoutMeshEdit Tool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSyCoEgB6oo

jasonwestmas
01-12-2015, 08:09 AM
yeah..but donīt the lw brush work in layout? in scene context..as opposed to zbrush goz and 3d coat.
Sort of why I wanīt a sculpting tool in layout...and why modoīs sculpt tool is interesting in a completly different way than 3d coat etc.

LWBrush is for modeler only. The cage deformer plugin from 3rdPowers has animated sculpting capabilities in Layout. There is a brush set that goes with the cage deformer. Granted the level of detail you have is dependent on how dense your cage is. So the more verticies you have in your cage the slower the performance obviously.

jasonwestmas
01-12-2015, 08:16 AM
How do CC SdS hold up in animation ? And its also obvious that this kind of sculpting barely holds up at minimum levels of subdivision. Its good for basic rough blocking a la Maya artisan, or for quicker changes for morphs, but please dont confuse this with a real sculpting tool. I bet its gonna be 200$, and at that price 3D coat is a better investment.

I would never animate with CCSubDs, too slow. They render fine. Not sure if LW3DG ever fixed the problems with the UVs though.

I would think of LWbrush as more of a quick manipulation brush on medium rez models. Obviously it's not intended for creating models for hirez displacment maps.

prometheus
01-12-2015, 09:08 AM
the only way to do it in Layout at the moment is to use this technique >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyk6pV15nSI

or, use the 32bit LayoutMeshEdit Tool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSyCoEgB6oo



Yes..thanks, I know about that technique though, and even how to animate the sculpts, but it is a simply drag radius tool, and not a sculpting brush tool..so it isnīt very good to work with, even though it can be done, and it is also very dependent on keeping the softfx applied, until saving it out etc..so for terrain editing in scene context with other elements I would prefer a proper Layout sculpt tool.

Taking it a little off topic..
For particles..well, edit fx in openGL vpr mode works to move around particles and delete the once you donīt want, but you canīt add a particle without reset of all the other particles.
I just tested drag move of vertices in modo with volumetrics, and that is how I want it to work, it allows for sculpting av vertices or particles directly, and also adding vertices to the scene without any fuzz.

I must say I like the softness of modo voxels, and how particles voxels blends much smoother than hypervoxels in lightwave, once and if I get the hang of the noise fractals, I think I will be able to produce much better looking clouds than what I actually can today with hypervoxels, and it allows me to design particle clusters in a better workflow than with lightwave I think.

It has some drawbacks too though, itīs interactive previewer seems Much slower than Lightwave VPR, and I donīt like the way you have to add noise fractals, and add volume density to the shader..settings seems to unorganized compared to working with a single Hypervoxels interface, I also hate the vertical text tabs, volumetric item is what I want though, so we can use any mesh surface as a volume item, the fallof is also working in modo, In lightwave ..the falloff donīt work, unless using the node editor hypertextures.




LWBrush is for modeler only. The cage deformer plugin from 3rdPowers has animated sculpting capabilities in Layout. There is a brush set that goes with the cage deformer. Granted the level of detail you have is dependent on how dense your cage is. So the more verticies you have in your cage the slower the performance obviously.

Bummer, somehow I got the impression that it also worked in Layout.

mav3rick
01-12-2015, 10:24 AM
anything particular why LW BRUSH tools does not respect symmetry by default?

jwiede
01-12-2015, 03:16 PM
Brent touched on this in the other LWBrush thread, he noted some Modeler tools don't respect LW's symmetry either, and suspected a common limitation. He also described the workflow he uses to deal with lack of working LW symmetry, using the SymmXMirror plugin to address the LW symmetry limitation. Worth viewing the "explanation video" in the other LWBrush thread, if you haven't already.

GraphXs
01-12-2015, 07:47 PM
That sym plugin is great! It really does make LW brush so much faster! Love it. Its great fun scultping a sub mesh. Oh and yes posing a eye lid over the is so easy! Amazing!

brent3d
01-12-2015, 08:27 PM
How do CC SdS hold up in animation ? And its also obvious that this kind of sculpting barely holds up at minimum levels of subdivision. Its good for basic rough blocking a la Maya artisan, or for quicker changes for morphs, but please dont confuse this with a real sculpting tool. I bet its gonna be 200$, and at that price 3D coat is a better investment.

LW Brush's Grab, Smooth, and Push/Pull tools are mesh sculpting tools the same as Mudbox and Modo...the only limitation is in how the given app handles large poly counts. Both LW and Modo have similar approaches to this and have their limitations while Mudbox was developed from the start to be a pure sculpting platform and can go much further. But that doesn't take away from the importance of having the ability to mesh sculpt in a polygonal modeling app, it boosts the workflow when dealing with organic forms and easily becomes the go to tool in the beginning of most modeling processes. Being able to mesh sculpt is a key step to rounding out the modeling process, look where Modo took it and yes they started with the same if not similar mesh sculpting approach as LW Brush. 3D Coat and Zbrush are the ideal when comes to sculpting performance, but most would agree that it would be good to have some access to sculpting type tools "inside" the modeling application and that's what LW Brush's tools do for the Lightwave user.

wyattharris
01-13-2015, 03:08 PM
LW Brush's Grab, Smooth, and Push/Pull tools are mesh sculpting tools the same as Mudbox and Modo...
I was going to say, this is basically the same thing ZBrush is doing only not at stratospheric poly counts. If LW Brush develops the ability to customize the brushes then you aren't too far off. This may not work how you like it but it is sculpting.

Greenlaw
01-13-2015, 03:25 PM
Hey Brent,

Thanks for posting that last video with explanations, and for following up with correct name of the symmetry tool used in the original video. Nice workflow!

G.

bobakabob
01-13-2015, 03:35 PM
I was going to say, this is basically the same thing ZBrush is doing only not at stratospheric poly counts. If LW Brush develops the ability to customize the brushes then you aren't too far off. This may not work how you like it but it is sculpting.

I love ZBrush, but this is a big advantage of the 3rd Powers tools, you can sculpt and Boolean with very low poly counts and simple sub d meshes. Imagination is the only limit having both these brilliant tools at your disposal :)

spherical
01-13-2015, 04:30 PM
I love ZBrush, but this is a big advantage of the 3rd Powers tools, you can sculpt and Boolean with very low poly counts and simple sub d meshes. Imagination is the only limit having both these brilliant tools at your disposal :)

OK, that does it for me. Going to complete my 3rd Powers toolset now.

Photogram
01-13-2015, 09:54 PM
Glad the vid was helpful. Here is a brief walk-through of LW Brush mesh sculpting and the SymmXMirror (not Fix Symmetry) tool used in my LW Brush Mesh Sculpting Demo.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgluDZg1nVM


Oh thanks about the SymmXMirror with LW Brush it is very helpfull!

bobakabob
01-14-2015, 10:54 AM
Oh thanks about the SymmXMirror with LW Brush it is very helpfull!

Agree, what a great plugin - a perfect addition to the 3rd Powers suite. Thanks for the workflow info there, Brett.

Fascinating to see how Modeler is developing today - in the same way it developed a reputation for innovation in the 90s, but today thanks to 3rd party developers. Organic modelling tools now available to LW users are incredible. Then there's LW Cad for the other stuff (which I really must upgrade without the wife noticing).

wyattharris
01-14-2015, 11:31 AM
I love ZBrush, but this is a big advantage of the 3rd Powers tools, you can sculpt and Boolean with very low poly counts and simple sub d meshes. Imagination is the only limit having both these brilliant tools at your disposal :)Totally agree. :thumbsup:

bobakabob
01-14-2015, 11:47 AM
OK, that does it for me. Going to complete my 3rd Powers toolset now.

Spherical, you won't regret it. There are tools to bring down polycounts to manageable levels in ZBrush (say for animation) after sculpting and booleans using Dynamesh / Zremesher , the brilliance of the 3rd Powers tools is that they allow you to stay with and preserve your simplest base mesh if you're so inclined.

Wyatt, yep, we're really spoilt for tools, compared to the old days restricted to pushing and pulling points :)

wyattharris
01-14-2015, 12:48 PM
Ugh, I hate pushing and pulling points so bad. I do not pine for those days.

jasonwestmas
01-14-2015, 02:46 PM
no doubt, sculpting tools ftw.

lightscape
01-14-2015, 11:29 PM
Why doesn't it work with symmetry?
Symmx is destructive btw.
Johan has that one of kind conform by uv that is still not found on other apps afaik.

ianr
01-15-2015, 05:34 AM
BobakaBob,

Hey quote: (which I really must upgrade without the wife noticing).

I really love that! (I might borrow it? For many things? )

prometheus
01-15-2015, 05:23 PM
Can this lw brush work to shape hair guides?
I really donīt like the styling tools in layout for hair guides, and there is no brush to sculpt it properly in modeler either, except for the fiberfx interface tools..which I donīt like either.

I just tried modo hair, and brush sculpt tools for the first time yesterday..and Wow..I think itīs working as it should, and much much better than anything in lightwave today, and with symmetry too, brushing,combing,scaling, curling, adding single strands etc.
would be interesting to hear if this lw brush can enhance the way we can modify hairguides, or if we have to wait for other improvements for that.

erikals
01-15-2015, 07:22 PM
Can this lw brush work to shape hair guides?
hm, i wonder the same...

ericsmith
01-15-2015, 08:48 PM
The Push/Pull and Smooth brushes, no. Kind of makes sense, as there's no real surface normal to set a direction from.

The grab tool works on 2 pt poly chains, but not splines. 2 pt poly chains are a better choice, as the final hair will render faster with them vs. splines, so it's not to big an issue.

What's cool is that if you select global with the grab tool, it will move all hair guides within range, whereas surface will only modify the guide clicked on. So you have some choice on how things work.

Eric

prometheus
01-15-2015, 08:58 PM
The Push/Pull and Smooth brushes, no. Kind of makes sense, as there's no real surface normal to set a direction from.

The grab tool works on 2 pt poly chains, but not splines. 2 pt poly chains are a better choice, as the final hair will render faster with them vs. splines, so it's not to big an issue.

What's cool is that if you select global with the grab tool, it will move all hair guides within range, whereas surface will only modify the guide clicked on. So you have some choice on how things work.


Eric

uhmm..yeah..but there is no way to render lightwave modeler splines with fiberfx? right...you talk about fiberfx layout splines? I think theres a difference between those..and the lw brush donīt work in layout..only layout fiberfx styling tools with those spline guide types..so thatīs a no no,

but yes..2 pt polychains ..how good is that when working with the lw brush? I would need some sort of feedback comparison to how lw brush, works with that VS how modo brush styling is working...so if some of you guys got it both ..that would help to describe proīs and conīs.

I would like to see how smooth the styling would be with polychains, you say itīs cool how you can use global etc, but I donīt see that any different from magnest or dragnet if set right, or maybe using the special fiberfx interface, lw brush donīt have symmetry ..so you canīt style it symmetricly, in modo you can, running symmfX, that seems awkward...firstly I donīt know if that will work with polychains, second you can not get immediate realtime feedback on the shaping.

ericsmith
01-16-2015, 09:14 AM
uhmm..yeah..but there is no way to render lightwave modeler splines with fiberfx? right...

Yes, modeler splines can now be used as guides for fiberFX. Didn't used to be the case, but I think this became possible in 11.6. The only problem is, layout does some sort of freezing for render, so you end up with a lot more subdivision than you'd have with 2 pt polychains, and that significantly affects render time.

Eric

Greenlaw
01-16-2015, 09:32 AM
This may or may not be important to your project but splines also cannot use vmaps. For example, if you use a UV map for the base of your guides to pick up a color texture from the character, you can't do that with splines. I found this out in an early test when coloring the fur for our Brudders characters in our music video. Morph targets won't work with splines either (like for the fur on the cats' faces.)

But, yeah, as Eric noted above, splines can otherwise be used for guides for some time now. I think since 11.5.1 since that's version we started doing the music video with.

G.

Greenlaw
01-16-2015, 09:43 AM
FWIW, I actually like using the Edit Guides tool--I was able to comb the fur in under a half hour for each cat. Since the guides come with UV coordinates, their ready to pick up the colors from the texture too. At the time we had to drop it for ZBrush Fibermesh guides though, because we ran into network render issues with the native guides (this was way back in 11.5.1.) The FiberMesh guides rendered more correctly at the time.

The downside with Fibermesh was that each cat took me significantly longer to comb in ZBrush, and then the guides come in without UV, morph or weight maps (unlike Edit Guides guides.) This mean I had to bake all my vmaps from the characters to the Fibermesh guides in Modeler using DrainBGVmap, which only works in x32 Modeler, which seriously limits the number of guides you can work with compared to x64.

The other issue is that externally modeled guides do not deform with subpatched characters accurately. This is because the guides are not physically attached to the 'skin' like Edit Guides guides. This isn't a ZBrush Fibermesh specific thing, it's true for any external guides including guides imported from Modo.

That said, ZBrush Fibermesh is the way to go for really complicated hairstyles. It's a skill that takes a lot of practice but the results are worth it.

So Modo's hair brushing tools support symmetry now? The last time I used it was a few years ago and it was frustrating to me that it didn't back then--this was one of the reasons at the time I liked Edit Guides better. I haven't upgraded my Modo since 601--might have to check out the demo.

G.

prometheus
01-16-2015, 09:47 AM
FWIW, I actually like using the Edit Guides tool--I was able to comb the fur in under a half hour for each cat. Since the guides come with UV coordinates, their ready to pick up the colors from the texture too. At the time we had to drop it for ZBrush Fibermesh guides though, because we ran into network render issues with the native guides (this was way back in 11.5.1.) The FiberMesh guides rendered more correctly at the time.

The downside with Fibermesh was that each cat took me significantly longer to comb in ZBrush, and then the guides come in without UV, morph or weight maps (unlike Edit Guides guides.) This mean I had to bake all my vmaps from the characters to the Fibermesh guides in Modeler using DrainBGVmap, which only works in x32 Modeler, which seriously limits the number of guides you can work with compared to x64.

The other issue is that externally modeled guides do not deform with subpatched characters accurately. This is because the guides are not physically attached to the 'skin' like Edit Guides guides. This isn't a ZBrush Fibermesh specific thing, it's true for any external guides including guides imported from Modo.

That said, ZBrush Fibermesh is the way to go for really complicated hairstyles. It's a skill that takes a lot of practice but the results are worth it.

So Modo's hair brushing tools support symmetry now? The last time I used it was a few years ago and it was frustrating to me that it didn't back then--this was one of the reasons at the time I liked Edit Guides better. I haven't upgraded my Modo since 601--might have to check out the demo.

G.

didnīt know about the splines actually working with fiberfx now, have to check...
But...I really think the edit guide/brush tool in layout suck...and when I just tested the hair sculpt tools in modo the otherday, I was..like, this is how it should be in lightwave, I think you will be in for a surprise.
yes..just activate x,y or z symmetry and brush and comb the hair along the head..and it will be styled the same on the other side.

I have seen a lot of tools in modo working as I wanted the route for lw to go..but didnīt, but that said...I still prefer the lightwave way if I can, it is setup in such structured way that I like more in lightwave, and general speed feels better too, so bring sculpting tools to lightwave and some other stuff like better quality on hypervoxels, volume item..preset handling like modo, scaling of every value with a value lock constrain so you donīt have to enter the same value three times as in lightwave...so I still keep my hopes they can fix such workflows and tools and I will stay faithful much longer with lightwave rather than choose modo for some future work.

Michael

jeric_synergy
01-16-2015, 09:54 AM
Could you be more concrete than saying "like in Modo"? That doesn't mean much to those of us w/o Modo to compare, and I think would lead to better feature request discussions.

prometheus
01-16-2015, 10:09 AM
Could you be more concrete than saying "like in Modo"? That doesn't mean much to those of us w/o Modo to compare, and I think would lead to better feature request discussions.

I have mentioned that all over the place in different posts, a short list of it could be,

voxels..volumetric items, you can turn any object to volumetric not only vertices or particles.
the falloff is working in modo voxels..they donīt work in ligthwave voxels unless entering the procedural node editor for voxels and adding the hypertextures from there, within that the fallof works, then again modo has a new type of falloff too.
smoothing...the quality of voxel edges thickness is much better than hypervoxels, in lightwave we can get it a little better by using local gradient density on the dissolve channel, but you canīt do that in the thickness channel..not many gradients work for that channel.
the blending mode between voxel particles are better, almost as good as the old dynamite plugin blending..which had a smooth tension in volume mode.
those are some fixes that would yield much better cloud with hypervoxels...modo also has implemented a forward scattering control so you can increase it as you want or decrease.


sculpting tools works as I excpect on geometry..we donīt have it in lightwave yet, we got a hint of it in core..and I just thought it should show up someday, so 2015 I had my hopes for it..but not that day.

sculpting tools works as i excpect on hair guides, lightwaves are horrible.

presets..I can drag and drop surface directly, in lightwave..."do you really want to load".
In modo I can have scenesor objects with visual feedback and just drag and drop.

and as I mentioned above...I donīt want to enter the same texture or value setting three times when I want uniform scaling, you can lock that in modo.

the list can go on with other stuff sculpting of particles letīs me design cloud clusters in a way I canīt in lightwave.

But I have much much more to check in to before I can give a proper evaluation on it, there are many things in lightwave that I prefer rather than the general workflow with item list, and shader tree and acessing things in modo which I donīt like...and rather prefer lightwave, since lightwave was built to acess cameras and lights in a more filmmaker way, while modo seem to have strayed away from it and adapted the list and shader tree aproach..I just donīt like that part of it, and the fact that modoīs interface feels clunkier somehow, just as itīs previewer isnīt at all as fast as lightwaves..not when working with voxels anyway...I heard it was suppose to be faster, but I donīt perceive it faster..not the previewer at least, VPR feels a bit faster with hypervoxels in general.

so there is good and bad in both, to bad they canīt marry.

Edit..additionally about noise textures, I donīt see a way to see a thumbnail representation of the noise functions in modo, so with hypervoxels you can get a little feedback from that, and we of course have so many to choose from and from plugins from denis.
That said...It seems like I can actually control modo noise a little better to get clouds more closer to what I want in cloud feathering so to speak, and modo noise functions are invertable, in hypervoxels they are not, not the ones directly under hypertextures...unless you use the node editor procedural, those can be inverted, but those are Not exactly the same as the main hypertextures..so the looks can be different.

though I donīt like the way one has to acess hypertextures in modo, itīs much more straightforward in hypervoxels, where else in modo you have to add volume item, add a noise...switch itīs mode to volume density...and I havenīt seen volumetric presets in similar ways as hypervoxels..so thereīs something lacking I think.

Particles pushing dynamics is also something I wanted...havenīt tested them yet though.


just download and test the demo if you got the time.

lightscape
01-16-2015, 10:20 AM
and when I just tested the hair sculpt tools in modo the otherday, I was..like, this is how it should be in lightwave, I think you will be in for a surprise.


Modo styling, like the painting and sculpting, loses symmetry from time to time. Not sure with 8. And as usual its destructive.

prometheus
01-16-2015, 10:25 AM
Modo styling, like the painting and sculpting, loses symmetry from time to time. Not sure with 8. And as usual its destructive.

I just scratched it loosely and initially, and that worked..so Yes, it might be possible it isnīt flawless always, though I use the 801 demo.
http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/products/modo/trial/

I am afraid it is getting little out of hand/topic....this should be more of a discussion around lw brush I think, rather than me showcasing impressions on modo, so I think I need to step back a little from now.
If the lw group reads my posts carefully..they at least got some impressions and insight on what I think they can improve on for lightwave, some things at least for a starter, they should download a modo trial and test run some of the stuff :)

Greenlaw
01-16-2015, 10:26 AM
I've always been a bit mixed about Modo. There are certainly a lot of tools in Modo that work more interactively than Modeler, and many that do work better. However, there also exist many of the same issues I find in Modeler (like errors with Boolean tools,) and there are a few features in Modeler that don't exist for Modo. A good example is Rail Cloning. Modo does have a Rail Cloning tool but try using it to reproduce Stuart Aitken's hair guides tutorial at the Worley website, and you'll see that it's a bit more limited than the one in Modeler.

In general, I try not to play the favorites game too much with the programs I use. Every program has it's purpose and no one program does everything. I do most of my 3D work in Layout, so naturally my preference is to do as much modeling work as I can in Modeler--only Modeler has a direct pipeline into Layout. Sometimes I need a little extra help though, and that's when I turn to other programs like 3D Brush, Modo, ZBrush, etc...

I like 3rd Powers Lightwave Brush tool because it means I can stay in Modeler for more tasks more now, and leave the other programs for 'specialty' situations. (I can say the same for 3P's interactive Boolean and Metamesh tools too. These tools are simply amazing, and the do keep me in Modeler for more situations now.)

G.

Photogram
01-16-2015, 10:28 AM
About working with LW Brush and Modeler Symetry not compatible i found another workaround.

SymmXMirror is a good idea but not interactive, it is good when you are sure about your geometry and you want to symetrize.
But while working i found True Art Virtual Mirror to be an interactive version of Symetry.
Like the name suggest, the mirrored geometry is virtual, so when you finish modeling you get only half of the model.

It is at this moment i use SymmXMirror and voila! ;)

http://www2.trueart.pl/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins/VirtualMirror

prometheus
01-16-2015, 10:35 AM
About working with LW Brush and Modeler Symetry not compatible i found another workaround.

SymmXMirror is a good idea but not interactive, it is good when you are sure about your geometry and you want to symetrize.
But while working i found True Art Virtual Mirror to be an interactive version of Symetry.
Like the name suggest, the mirrored geometry is virtual, so when you finish modeling you get only half of the model.


It is at this moment i use SymmXMirror and voila! ;)

http://www2.trueart.pl/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins/VirtualMirror

yet another Commercial plugin to something that really should be built in nativly, like in modo, but hey...at least it comes in a good plugin package, so maybe I shouldnīt whine about it :D

Sorry..just had to get it out of my cranky head today, itīs bedtime soon... I just realized.

Photogram
01-16-2015, 10:54 AM
That package is a sort of complement for LW Brush ;) there are similar tools. Easy Retopology have the advantage to give the ability to create geometry without background mesh ;)

jeric_synergy
01-16-2015, 12:55 PM
......maybe I shouldnīt whine about it :D
Maybe?

sudac20
01-16-2015, 02:02 PM
Great tools... but I have to side with what some others have mentioned, these should be standard within Lightwave... with that being said if your doing any organic modeling do yourself a favor and buy these ASAP!

jwiede
01-16-2015, 08:37 PM
For folks who have used both, are there any interesting LWBrush tools or sculpting modes, etc. that lack equivalents among modo 801's sculpting/modeling capabilities?

Put another way, for someone who already uses modo 801 alongside Lightwave, is there any functionality that LWBrush offers (besides that it runs in Modeler, that's a given) which isn't present in modo 801's modeling/sculpting capabilties? If so, what functionality?

lightscape
01-17-2015, 12:39 AM
Looks like it will work with symmetry soon
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?145152-LWBRUSH-by-3rdPowers-is-OUT&p=1418277#post1418277

Now its tempting.

prometheus
01-17-2015, 03:23 AM
For folks who have used both, are there any interesting LWBrush tools or sculpting modes, etc. that lack equivalents among modo 801's sculpting/modeling capabilities?

Put another way, for someone who already uses modo 801 alongside Lightwave, is there any functionality that LWBrush offers (besides that it runs in Modeler, that's a given) which isn't present in modo 801's modeling/sculpting capabilties? If so, what functionality?

I would also like to know about that.

- - - Updated - - -


Maybe?

chillout jeric.

lightscape
01-17-2015, 04:23 AM
I would also like to know about that.


For sculpting if you own either 3dcoat,zbrush or modo consider this

zbrush>3dcoat>modo>lw brush

I wouldn't buy modo for sculpting. Its vastly inferior to zbrush or even 3dcoat.
I would buy lw brush for the huge convenience of not having to go out of modeller for sculpting and the tool will save tons of time creating endomorph.

mataori
01-17-2015, 06:04 AM
Now It seems to work in symmetry mode.I'll buy it.

01-17-2015, 06:53 AM
Caveat emptor:
It WILL work in symmetry; I see no update, yet, for the symmetrical version.

ianr
01-17-2015, 07:59 AM
Masahiro is working on it , as we mutter.

hXXps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwfgqHwnPz4

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?145152-LWBRUSH-by-3rdPowers-is-OUT (post no 14)

01-17-2015, 09:08 AM
Right; that was the point: coming but not here.

The symm plugin has proved to be interesting but it has borked weight maps had on my test meshes. This is a no-no in my book.

It is a Buy recommendation, regardless.

sudac20
01-17-2015, 09:31 AM
For folks who have used both, are there any interesting LWBrush tools or sculpting modes, etc. that lack equivalents among modo 801's sculpting/modeling capabilities?

Put another way, for someone who already uses modo 801 alongside Lightwave, is there any functionality that LWBrush offers (besides that it runs in Modeler, that's a given) which isn't present in modo 801's modeling/sculpting capabilties? If so, what functionality?

It is not a huge improvement over what Modo offers, each has their strengths and weaknesses. For me LWBrush just feels more natural, for a 150 bucks it is a no brainer

prometheus
01-17-2015, 10:44 AM
For sculpting if you own either 3dcoat,zbrush or modo consider this

zbrush>3dcoat>modo>lw brush

I wouldn't buy modo for sculpting. Its vastly inferior to zbrush or even 3dcoat.
I would buy lw brush for the huge convenience of not having to go out of modeller for sculpting and the tool will save tons of time creating endomorph.

Again..neither zbrush or 3d coat works in scenecontext sculpting and manipulation of terrain, or sculpting particles, you can do that in modo with interactive renderig active to see results of shadows, lighting and in scenecontext with
other items like instances, trees etc, none of that is possible with zbrush,3dcoat, or modeling sculpt tools only, ..closest would be to to just switch between zbrush and lightwave and have it autoupdate in lightwave layout, but you still donīt get realtime feedback and have to switch and click update etc..but you just canīt sculpt in scenecontext.

Thatīs why I think modo is doing it the right way by making sure they implemented a sculpt tool that works in the scene.

Michael

- - - Updated - - -


It is not a huge improvement over what Modo offers, each has their strengths and weaknesses. For me LWBrush just feels more natural, for a 150 bucks it is a no brainer

So what are the strenght and weaknesses? :)

lightscape
01-17-2015, 11:55 AM
You quoted jwiede. He was asking about sculpting and modeling on a model obviously. We're talking in a thread about a modeller plugin in LW. Particles?

brent3d
01-17-2015, 12:02 PM
For folks who have used both, are there any interesting LWBrush tools or sculpting modes, etc. that lack equivalents among modo 801's sculpting/modeling capabilities?

Put another way, for someone who already uses modo 801 alongside Lightwave, is there any functionality that LWBrush offers (besides that it runs in Modeler, that's a given) which isn't present in modo 801's modeling/sculpting capabilties? If so, what functionality?

For mesh sculpting tools:
LW Brush's Grab tool = Modo's Move Tool
LW Brush's Push/Pull tool = Modo's Push and Carve tools (or Push+Ctrl)

Oh what the heck..here's a vid to make it all clear.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3XA4dykW3g

jasonwestmas
01-17-2015, 03:04 PM
not much of a comparison between the toolsets, but you did mention the interactive quality of LWBrush, which is superior in a lot of ways imo.

Snosrap
01-17-2015, 04:29 PM
For mesh sculpting tools:
LW Brush's Grab tool = Modo's Move Tool
LW Brush's Push/Pull tool = Modo's Push and Carve tools (or Push+Ctrl)

Oh what the heck..here's a vid to make it all clear.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3XA4dykW3g

I enjoyed your "rant" brent. :) One thing I think you were spot on with was the comment about the philosophy of the the two apps. But the one thing that I believe you were way off base on was the comment about the underlying technology. Modo's tech is completely different. The philosophy makes them appear they come from the same mold, but the tech is completely different. Granted some of the algorithms could indeed be the same, but most of that stuff is just rehashed stuff that's been around in white paper for years. I'm like you, I don't see any reason why someone familiar with one couldn't work in the other, especially in regards to modeling. A couple of things you could have pointed out that are totally the same but didn't, are the orbiting, panning and zooming of the viewports. This alone almost makes the two apps identical. :) 3rd Powers and W-Tools have indeed shown that there is a lot that the current Modeler is capable of - it's just too bad that some of this stuff isn't included in the base package.

sudac20
01-17-2015, 06:38 PM
Again..neither zbrush or 3d coat works in scenecontext sculpting and manipulation of terrain, or sculpting particles, you can do that in modo with interactive renderig active to see results of shadows, lighting and in scenecontext with
other items like instances, trees etc, none of that is possible with zbrush,3dcoat, or modeling sculpt tools only, ..closest would be to to just switch between zbrush and lightwave and have it autoupdate in lightwave layout, but you still donīt get realtime feedback and have to switch and click update etc..but you just canīt sculpt in scenecontext.

Thatīs why I think modo is doing it the right way by making sure they implemented a sculpt tool that works in the scene.

Michael

- - - Updated - - -



So what are the strenght and weaknesses? :)

Dont have the time to go into details, for me LW brush just feels more natural, Modo has always felt like modeler on steroids... something is just off. That's not a bad thing, LwBrush just feels more organic to me. To each their own.

sudac20
01-17-2015, 06:51 PM
Brent3D... I couldn't have said it better. Nice post

brent3d
01-17-2015, 11:16 PM
I enjoyed your "rant" brent. :) One thing I think you were spot on with was the comment about the philosophy of the the two apps. But the one thing that I believe you were way off base on was the comment about the underlying technology. Modo's tech is completely different. The philosophy makes them appear they come from the same mold, but the tech is completely different. Granted some of the algorithms could indeed be the same, but most of that stuff is just rehashed stuff that's been around in white paper for years. I'm like you, I don't see any reason why someone familiar with one couldn't work in the other, especially in regards to modeling. A couple of things you could have pointed out that are totally the same but didn't, are the orbiting, panning and zooming of the viewports. This alone almost makes the two apps identical. :) 3rd Powers and W-Tools have indeed shown that there is a lot that the current Modeler is capable of - it's just too bad that some of this stuff isn't included in the base package.

Good points. 3rd Powers is doing great stuff but LW Brush also shines a glaring light on how little has been done to upgrade modeler over all these cycles, hopefully LW3DG has something up their sleeves.

- - - Updated - - -


Brent3D... I couldn't have said it better. Nice post

Wow! Thanks Sudac :)

Greenlaw
01-18-2015, 12:43 AM
Again..neither zbrush or 3d coat works in scenecontext sculpting and manipulation of terrain, or sculpting particles...
Yeah, I wish this could be done more directly in Layout. Interestingly enough, 3D Cel created a 'tech demo' plugin for doing just this many years ago--way back in LW 9.x days in fact. You can find the plugin here:

http://www.3dcel.jp/

The plugin was very simple but it was pretty cool to be able to edit terrain or sculpt camera projection shapes in Layout. The downside was that it only ran in Layout x32 and I'm not even sure it still works for 2015.

Unless I'm mistaken, I think there is a connection between 3D Cel and 3rd Powers, so maybe an updated version is still coming? Just a thought.

Nowadays, I just use HardFX for this sort of thing in Layout but I'm looking forward to the day when we can use LW Brush in Layout. Or alternatively, it would be just as useful to get a Layout camera view for Modeler--either would work for me.

G.

P.S., While I'm on the subject of 3D Cel, I wish a modern version of the dev's Weight Painting tool for Layout would make it into Lightwave 2015 x64 too. :)

CaptainMarlowe
01-18-2015, 12:51 AM
Well, the way they use a pen directly on their screen, plus some tools made before like "sktecthmesh" which looks like topology in LWBrush, I would also bet there is a connection between the two.
I also miss deeply the layout weight map painting tool. I used it constantly with HD instance to place vegetation.

Snosrap
01-18-2015, 08:29 AM
Unless I'm mistaken, I think there is a connection between 3D Cel and 3rd Powers, so maybe an updated version is still coming? Just a thought. Yeah I think you are spot on here. Especially since at the bottom of some of the pages it says "This tool, 3rd powers have been transferred to." :)

jwiede
01-19-2015, 12:34 PM
not much of a comparison between the toolsets, but you did mention the interactive quality of LWBrush, which is superior in a lot of ways imo.

When was that? For that matter, when did the actual content begin? After sitting through over ten minutes of ranting, I kind of gave up on it.

prometheus
01-20-2015, 04:58 AM
Yeah, I wish this could be done more directly in Layout. Interestingly enough, 3D Cel created a 'tech demo' plugin for doing just this many years ago--way back in LW 9.x days in fact. You can find the plugin here:

http://www.3dcel.jp/

The plugin was very simple but it was pretty cool to be able to edit terrain or sculpt camera projection shapes in Layout. The downside was that it only ran in Layout x32 and I'm not even sure it still works for 2015.




Unless I'm mistaken, I think there is a connection between 3D Cel and 3rd Powers, so maybe an updated version is still coming? Just a thought.

Nowadays, I just use HardFX for this sort of thing in Layout but I'm looking forward to the day when we can use LW Brush in Layout. Or alternatively, it would be just as useful to get a Layout camera view for Modeler--either would work for me.

G.

P.S., While I'm on the subject of 3D Cel, I wish a modern version of the dev's Weight Painting tool for Layout would make it into Lightwave 2015 x64 too. :)

That edit mesh layout tool I actually tried not long ago, but it failed to start in 11.6 so I didnīt get it working at all, if that is the tool you were refering too that is?
Edit..ah..yeah, I might have tried it in 64 bit only.

Yeah soft fx and hardfx, and for particles the edit fx tools...tried it with particles to move particles around when direction how the cloud should look like, with Direct feedback in layout and VPR with active hypervoxels..that is why I canīt work the same way and just move around points
in modeler and the swap and check afterwards, it is a must for a good designing workflow to see the voxels in realtime when moving them to proper positions, but you would have to pfx save it out to maintain itīs final look ..and then you canīt go in and re adjust without screwing everything up on the other particles.
Thats partly why I want a toolset in layout to handle it.

They could do a workaround ..at least for particles, if they enhance Hypervoxels to allow for using nulls in groups within the same hypervoxel instance..I could then just clone a null to whatever amount I need for a cloud cluster, and if they are for instance parented to a master null, or if I could do that in hypervoxels tab, they could be controlled with one and same hypervoxel instancer/group so to speak..as it is now, each null is itīs own voxel instance as opposed to if you use particles that takes own itīs own hypervoxel instance for each emitter and particle amount there in, I canīt recall exactly ..might need to check the old dynamite plugin again, think it was the pro version though..that had an option to use grouping instances with for itīs volumetric renderer.

That would only help out a little with that particular scene case, but there are so many other situations you would be much better of with a sculpting tool to deform particles, points, objects..and even paint weightmaps in the scene for use with instances, hypervoxels, particle emission, fluid emission, or to use with bullet soft dynamics on the fly.

isnīt the edit mesh tool the same tool that was then released as the cage and lattice deformers with 3rd powers? and I though he was the same guy or something.

lightscape
02-02-2015, 08:27 PM
Requests.

Smooth - function like a skinwrap. In 3dmax there's a brush skinwrap function that will contrain a mesh to a background object. So its an interactive heatshrink in lightwave. Lwbrush would be perfect for something like that.

Vertex color map brush - the airbrush in modeller is very slow. Maybe LWB can improve this workflow. Maybe add some brush preset in the future and you have atleast painting capability in modeller that you can bake to texture later.

jeric_synergy
02-02-2015, 11:11 PM
3rd Powers already sells a form of heatshrink separately.

lightscape
02-03-2015, 04:15 AM
3rd Powers already sells a form of heatshrink separately.

I'm talking about a brush contraint.

lightscape
02-09-2015, 11:10 AM
LWbrush grab, pull and smooth are godsend tools for comforming clothes and armor in the perspective viewport.
Something I do for an hour I do in less than half the time in the perspective viewport.

lightscape
03-03-2015, 07:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVCOLnIN7P0
Modo hair sculpting.

lightscape
03-03-2015, 07:57 PM
Would be great if Masahiro can make a conform/constrain brush.

@ 5min 30 sec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1bTyPHbI3k