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View Full Version : Curious? - Would you want a system that just ran AMIGA 4 and lightwave?



Ade
11-30-2003, 08:57 AM
I occaisionally like to follow the progress of the new Amiga 4 os for PPC's and was just wondering would you love a return of a system made simply just for lightwave, IF IT DID IT WELL?

I personally would love to have a system dedicated to LW only providing it was the platform of choice as being the best touted by Newtek.

What do you guys think?

BTW also can run other newtek apps like toaster but thats it.

Matt
11-30-2003, 09:01 AM
As much as I loved the Amiga in it's day, it's dead. Why would you want a computer that was dedicated for just for one task? The beauty of powerful modern computers is that they can do lots of things.

simonbrewer
11-30-2003, 09:36 AM
Amiga is most certainly not dead. New PowerPC AmigaOne and "Amiga-compatible" Pegasos systems have been available in various configurations for a year now, AmigaOS 4 is currently in beta and will be released in the next couple of months, and new PPC-based software is being written every day. Yes, the Amiga market is a tiny fraction of what it was in the early nineties, but it is definitely alive :-)

It would be great to see LightWave available again for the Amiga, but realisticly I know its not going to happen anytime soon, if ever, since the market is so small at the moment.

On the subject of computers used only for a single task, how many people here have VT systems used only for video editing? Quite a few I imagine. I myself have computers dedicated to rendering, a LightWave workstation and one for games/internet. Multi-purpose machines are good, but I like to fine-tune the hadware configurations to suit a specific task for performance and stability.

The Amiga was always a general purpose machine (and darn good at what it did) in the UK and Europe, although in the US it was marketed pretty much just as the Video Toaster I think.

Matt
11-30-2003, 10:16 AM
I used to be a die-hard Amiga fanatic, but if I buy a computer it's for the software I want to use on it, not so much the machine itself, the Amiga has, and probably never will none of the applications I need to use.

As a serious computer it's dead, as a hobbyist computer it may well be alive.

I'm thinking about chucking out my old Amiga 1200, it still works but all my disks are long since dead, the only reason I was keeping it was because it had all my old C programming projects, graphics, modules etc. now they're gone I need the space!

Shame really, to this day it has one of the leanest OSs on the planet, it would fly with todays processors!

view3d
12-01-2003, 04:18 AM
right now the amiga toaster is the only way to get trail on white, trail on black effects or the realtime transporter effects among others. One would think the dual 3ghz processor machines of today could do this??

d

http://www.clearstarweb.net

prospector
12-02-2003, 07:08 PM
I would like one.

I am still waiting for B. Gates to come out with a Newtek ver of his OS.
with only the parts in it that are needed by the VT to run and nothing else.
Especially for rendering farms wher most of the Windows goes totally un-needed but still uses resources and CPU time.
And who needs Outlook, Word Pad and all those other parts when just using as renderer or dedicated VT unit.

gjjackson
12-03-2003, 07:45 AM
Right on prospector. I have several machines I use for a render farm. You could always tweak Windows not to run many features. Any of the 'Run' instances in the registry can be removed. Also in the services you can disable other fucntions. This still doesn't minimize the Windows Hog. I like Windows but it definitely has a lot more than what a person needs. At least Windows has finally fixed the problem of when closing an app, it actually releases and frees up the memory. Until 2K that didn't really happen. That was the reason for having to reboot so much. Now, you virtually never have to reboot.

Speaking of Reboot, any one remember that 3D show of that name some years back. I wonder what that was done with. If I remember they did use motion capture.

MadMax
12-10-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by simonbrewer
Amiga is most certainly not dead. New PowerPC AmigaOne and "Amiga-compatible" Pegasos systems have been available in various configurations for a year now, AmigaOS 4 is currently in beta and will be released in the next couple of months, and new PPC-based software is being written every day. Yes, the Amiga market is a tiny fraction of what it was in the early nineties, but it is definitely alive :-)


No, Amiga is dead and buried.

First off, Amiga Inc, founded buy a bunch of rabid fan boys is bankrupt. 100.00 in the bank according to the CEO and over 2.2 million in debt and facing lawsuits.

Employees haven't been paid in ages, their company assets seized and sold at auction to cover past due rent.

Amiga Inc employees now work for free from their homes.

As for the Amiga One, it's a joke. Way overpriced and only runs Linux.

It's slow. 800mhz was the last top speed model I heard. The ideal system memory is REGISTERED PC133 memory, dead now for a good 2 years in modern systems.

After taking a quick look at Amiga forums, I found this bit of nonsense:

AFAIK the A1 uses standard SDRAM. The CPUs are the PowerPC series, and are about 700/800 Mhz (though often overclocked to 900Mhz). The PowerPC is a very efficient chip - it has a wide pipeline. That means that a 900 Mhz PPC chip is equivilent to a 1.5 Ghz or so x86 chip.

The key point being that the fanatics are claiming that their 800mhz. system with no OS and limited memory capacity is as fast as a 1.5ghz. Chip, which would cost a whopping 70.00 today.

That would give it the approximate Lightwave raytrace benchmarks of about 242 seconds, and that is assuming their 1.5ghz claim is even accurate, vs. 77 seconds for a current Athlon FX or 85 seconds for a P4 3.2

However if you go based on PPC figures, then we are talking that an Amiga One if it did have lightwave would perform about the same as a Mac, and that would give it a figure of 320-463 seconds render times.

I just don't see the value in quadrupling or more, the render times for the sake of nostalgia. Then add to the fact that the OS is NOT Amiga OS, it is a cloned reverse engineered product, it isn't even really nostalgia in anything other than name.

A funny thing I caught on the Amiga forum was this at the end of an anti intel rant:


Let us Intelligent Beeings stuble togheter out of the darkness and see the light again, and rejoyce - for the future is bright. Have faith, so sayeth the lord.

With so many mistakes in spelling, it's funny that someone would equate the word intelligence with this poster.

Have faith? Oh god, attack of the religious zealots.

No thanks.

I liked my Amigas when they were new, I still have fond memories of them, but like the dinosaurs they are extinct.

Todays Amiga is like the modern Iguana being compared to a Dinosaur, both reptiles but completely different animals.

Ade
12-10-2003, 06:48 PM
Kinda true I wish they were owed by someone like sony who made the money.. AMiga is an efficient OS, moreso than osx or windows... I rememebr in the day a 20mhz amiga outperformed all who were at 60mhz, even amiga emulated mac faster than a real mac for a time.

prospector
12-11-2003, 08:37 AM
Mad MAx...you you you brute!!!:D

Don't you know the Amiga is like a finely crafted Rolls Royce?

On one desk here I have my VT2 machine and the other I have the Amiga Toaster.

Even today I can STILL play full screen-full motion video on the Amiga and have tried to stretch any AVI or MPEG to full screen on the P4 and get all kinds of pixelation,frame jump.

LONG LIVE THE AMIGA !!!

And besides, the odds of an Amiga crashing vs the PC crashing are about the same as the odds of a ship from Rigelia landing on my front lawn.

MadMax
12-11-2003, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by prospector
Mad MAx...you you you brute!!!:D

Don't you know the Amiga is like a finely crafted Rolls Royce?


Amiga WAS a nice machine.

This new machine isn't an Amiga, it's a boat anchor. It's a PPC hobbyist board that is not all that different from a standard PC board other than it uses a PPC processor.

33 mhz. PCI slots, PC133 dimm slots, VIA southbridge, no custom chips like Amiga had.

Not a damn thing special about this boat anchor other than it's amazingly high price.

Rumor has it that the code name for it was Hubris.

Aegis
12-11-2003, 09:37 AM
Whilst Commodore may be long dead and gone there's still a very active Amiga community which is the sole reason that the Amiga OS is being ported to PPC by Hyperion. Amiga OS 4 promises a number of important enhancements designed to bring the OS a bit more up-to-date with further functionality being added in future point releases.

Whether Amiga Inc. lives or dies is fairly irrelevant at this point as they've made little (if any) contribution to this project and even if they fold, Hyperion retains the rights to complete and distribute their Amiga OS product.

The Amiga One boards, whilst far from state-of-the-art were designed to be a concrete "target" that the OS developers could work towards with the port - the board designs themselves are based on the OpenPPC (IIRC) standard which means that the Amiga OS will be able to run on new and faster variants in the future.

No one questions that at this time the Amiga is anything other than a niche platform for nostalgic users and enthusiastic hobbyists but on the other hand, the Amiga OS is still a powerful operating system with miniscule (for todays standards) hardware requirements and with some decent development finance and support from third party developers there's no reason to assume that Amiga couldn't be a viable platform again in the future.

Whether this will ever happen is hard to tell - for years the Amiga community has been infighting over issues such as the Amiga One, Pegasos, MorphOS, AROS, PPC and x86 to the point where a lot has been said but very little has been done - the community needs a direction, be it Amiga One and OS 4 or Pegasos and MorphOS - once a winner has emerged then the community will get to work writing for it, using it and building awareness of it but until that happens the Amiga will continue to be no more than a curiosity...

Oh, and heck, I'd love a AmigaOne with OS4 running LightWave 5, let alone 8... that and ImageFX, TVPaint and Brilliance... sweet! :D

Aegis
12-11-2003, 09:45 AM
Incidentally, speaking of Brilliance - what do artists doing GFX for the GameBoy Advance (and suchlike) use to create their graphics? Photoshop? Having done a lot of pixel art for games in the past, I can't imagine using a 32-bit app like PS to do this kind of work - kind of like using a bazooka to kill a fly...

MadMax
12-11-2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Aegis
Whilst Commodore may be long dead and gone there's still a very active Amiga community which is the sole reason that the Amiga OS is being ported to PPC by Hyperion.


Not entirely accurate. Amiga OS is not being ported, it is being imitated. Big difference. They are trying to reverse engineer it.

That makes it no more AmigaOS than MorphOS, AROS or others.

Even stranger that they are relying on the nostalgia aspect, when there was virtually no software for the PPC on Amiga anyway. Only a couple of very small apps and a few PD programs were ever available. And the old "classic" software is so out of date that it doesn't make sense.

Bottom line, they have no plan, no direction at all. After they sell machines to the 10 remaining amiga fanatics, who will buy it?

it isn't even remotely cost effective, no software, no effective niche other than as a curiosity.

Aegis
12-11-2003, 10:19 AM
Well, there's a lot more than 10... for the latest Amiga news you can check out www.amiga.org or www.ann.lu - you might be surprised by the number of Amigans (shudder) still out there hoping for a resurrection. Also, AmigaOS4 won't just run PPC software - there's a 68k emulation in there too which will ensure most OS legal 3.1+ programs will run faster than they've ever run on a 68k machine.

I'm in kind of two minds as to what to think of the new hardware - not 'cause it's outdated, more that to me the Amiga was a combination of cutting edge hardware and software - the current thinking is that AmigaOS IS the Amiga and that the hardware is irrelevant - almost true in todays market where graphics and sound cards have removed the need for custom hardware but that said, there's still a few trick the Amiga could do that are impossible on todays PCs and Macs...

I still keep up with the latest developments and if there's ever a product that looks fun enough to buy then I'll probably get one but in the meantime I'm quite happy running the few Amiga apps I still use under emulation and every once in a while I'll dig out my A1200 for a game of "The Chaos Engine"... NODE ACTIVATED!!

MadMax
12-11-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Aegis
Well, there's a lot more than 10... for the latest Amiga news you can check out www.amiga.org or www.ann.lu - you might be surprised by the number of Amigans (shudder) still out there hoping for a resurrection. Also, AmigaOS4 won't just run PPC software - there's a 68k emulation in there too which will ensure most OS legal 3.1+ programs will run faster than they've ever run on a 68k machine.


I read them when I need a good laugh.

As for emulation, do I really need to comment on that? CRAPOLA.

UAE, 'nuff said.

As for the arguments, back when there were some of the original Amiga crowd around, the argument was if it doesn't have a custom chipset, it isn't Amiga.

They argued about Intel's aging architecture, and yet that is exactly what they have adopted. Other than the CPU, that board isn't anythign different in design than a standard Intel based system of about 4 years ago.

So much for their "elegant" hardware eh?

Aegis
12-11-2003, 10:39 AM
Were you an Atari ST user by any chance???

MadMax
12-11-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Aegis
Were you an Atari ST user by any chance???

Did you not read my previous posts?

I was an Amiga user. A real one. One of the first A1000's ever shipped. No software other than the programmers kit provided by CATS and a demo disk of Deluxe Paint.

I moved on when Amiga was no longer able to compete in the marketplace. I am very fond of Amiga, I am not fond of the joke it has become.

These clowns don't have a clue about nostalgia because they don't know what Amiga was.

Aegis
12-11-2003, 11:14 AM
Woooo! A REAL Amiga user!

Actually you're just bitter the way things have turned out which is understandable. I don't like it either but what can you do? I guess some people (yourself included it seems) wish that the Amiga had died a graceful death and lived on in legend as the "perfect" computer.

On the other hand, I never cease to be amazed that this curious bundle of hardware and software has such an avid following that even years after its parent company's demise there are people still willing to try and resurrect it in an attempt to create a "better way" of doing things. Whatever the Amiga is or was, companies like Hyperion are still striving to keep the torch lit - If even some of this effort trickles down into the mainstream and in some way enhances the way we use our computers then the effort won't have been wasted.

I can't disagree with what you say about the new hardware 'cause you're right - It isn't really an Amiga (in my opinion) - todays games consoles such as the Playstation and Gamecube have more in common with the Amiga way of doing things than the Amiga One. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is - consoles are built around custom architectures to provide incredible performance at low cost for a 3-4 year lifespan (sound familiar?).

Today's computers are designed to be redundant the day they ship. The costs involved with engineering a true next generation Amiga are unrealistic when you look at the user-base it would intially command. So what do you do? Nothing - and let the platform have its graceful death? Well, the users wouldn't allow that and in their mind ANY Amiga is better than no Amiga at all and maybe they're right - who am I or you to judge?

As to being a REAL Amiga user - The first Amiga I saw was a friend's A1000 running DPaint 1 and Defender of the Crown - I was completely transfixed and the day the A500 came out in the UK I got a loan and bought one (couldn't afford a '1000).

After that I got an A500plus, a CSA Mega Midget Racer 68030 card, an A570 20mb external hard disk (remember those!) then I moved to an A1200 and finally an A4000 (which sadly shuffled off its mortal coil earlier this year). I now have a brand new A1200 bought from Eyetech and a CD32 I bought when they first came out.

I used DPaint to create a portfolio which got me my first job in the games industry (Argonaut Software). Despite all the artists there using DPaint on the PC I bitched enough to get a '1200 to do my artwork on. Then I moved to Digital Integration and woked on PC flight sims using Brilliance and LightWave 3.5 on an A4000 before moving to AMGFX where I used an Amiga for some of my shots in Lost In Space amongst other things. Though I don't any longer have any Amiga hardware powerful enough to run the applications I used to run on my '4000 (in particular ImageFX), I still run them under WinUAE just fine.

Am I a real Amiga user? Nah... I used to be - today's real Amiga users are the ones still striving to keep the dream alive. Me? I salute 'em. :)

MadMax
12-11-2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Aegis
Woooo! A REAL Amiga user!

Actually you're just bitter the way things have turned out which is understandable.


Bitter? not at all.

Irritated when these luddites say Amiga is better than even modern day PC's, but can't offer a justification that a lightwave scene in Amiga takes 32,000+ seconds to render vs. a PC at 75 seconds other than to say it is more elegant.

Sounds more like religious mantra.

Those of us who WERE the real amiga users back in the beginning were artists. We created **** that amazed people.

The current crowd of Amiga users are a bunch of twits living in mommy and dadies basements. It's like a cult that has taken over a legacy of something that was once cool and twisting it.

Pathetic really.

Aegis
12-11-2003, 12:10 PM
Irritated when these luddites say Amiga is better than even modern day PC's, but can't offer a justification that a lightwave scene in Amiga takes 32,000+ seconds to render vs. a PC at 75 seconds other than to say it is more elegant.

Ah, but the PC/Mac versions of LightWave still can't do that "Slick and sexy" (Tim Jenison's words) moving preview and what about the left to right/right to left wipes between Layout and Modeler? ;)

Seriously though, I agree that there are Amiga fanatics out there much as there are Mac fanatics and even PC fanatics and life would be a lot less amusing without their extreme opinions - as I've mentioned before on these forums, the death of the Amiga pretty much ended my platform loyalties - now I just use the best platform to get the job done - in a way I suppose, the Amiga way of doing things lives on in the tools I use - in this case, LightWave, Mirage and the VT[3]. I still drop in now and again on the Amiga forums to see what's happening - there are a few zealots admittedly but there's a lot of realists too who fondly remember the Amiga and continue to contribute to the community because they enjoy it and because they hope someday to recapture whatever it was that made their Amigas "special" - for what it's worth, I hope they do.

MadMax
12-11-2003, 12:14 PM
I think the defining point about this new Amiga is that they state it isn't for everyone. It's for current users and those who may have recently left.

That indicates an extreme lack of vision.

They are not trying to bring anything special to the table, just keep the old life support running after the patient is already dead.

Aegis
12-11-2003, 12:24 PM
Personally I think the mistake was in this "half and half" approach - as you point out, the new AmigaOne hardware is practically a PC anyway (albeit with a PPC) - if the intention was to abstract the OS away from the legacy hardware and embrace new standards then why not go the distance and create a truly hardware agnostic OS that'd run on PPC, x86, Mips, Arm, Coldfire, whatever..?

In a way I think the new Amiga Inc. have inadvertantly repeated the mistakes of Commodore - an inordinate amount of time and energy was wasted on the now-defunct "Amiga Digital Environment" (DE) which was nothing to do with the Amiga (in its historic sense) much as Commodore wasted its resources on an ill-fated line of very average PCs when it should have been investing in the next-generation Amigas.

As mentioned previously, custom hardware was never going to work as the costs involved are just too prohibitive - It's a shame that Gateway's MCC never made it... (or the A3000+, or AAA or, or...) *sigh*