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djwaterman
12-06-2014, 05:47 AM
Both are in a similar price range, the Cintiq is dedicated to just one thing while the Surface pro is a laptop as well. Basically I think I might want that pen to screen feeling for greater control. Is anyone using one or the other or have experience with both and want to offer an opinion?

meatycheesyboy
12-06-2014, 09:56 AM
I'm not certain this is still an issue so you'll need to do research but the Surface Pro 3 no longer uses a Wacom digitizer and thus no longer uses WinTab drivers, instead using a new set of tablet drivers that MS developed called n-trig. When the n-trig first came out, not many programs supported it so there was no pressure sensitivity when using the pen. I think most companies have updated their software for n-trig support, thus adding pressure sensitivity back in, but I'm not sure everyone has. For example, I don't think (could be wrong) that Zbrush has pressure sensitivity when using a Surface Pro 3.

But, like I said, my information on this could be outdated.

jwiede
12-06-2014, 11:29 AM
I'm not certain this is still an issue so you'll need to do research but the Surface Pro 3 no longer uses a Wacom digitizer and thus no longer uses WinTab drivers, instead using a new set of tablet drivers that MS developed called n-trig. When the n-trig first came out, not many programs supported it so there was no pressure sensitivity when using the pen. I think most companies have updated their software for n-trig support, thus adding pressure sensitivity back in, but I'm not sure everyone has. For example, I don't think (could be wrong) that Zbrush has pressure sensitivity when using a Surface Pro 3.

But, like I said, my information on this could be outdated.

It is, but no worries. Ntrig brought out WinTab drivers for Surface3 shortly after release, and a pressure curve editor a couple of months later.

Greenlaw
12-06-2014, 02:51 PM
A Cintiq 13 (what I have at home,) is tied to a full computer, so you really can't compare it to a Surface Pro 3. What you need to compare it against is the Cintiq Companion (http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-displays/cintiq-companion), which is a Windows 8 tablet computer like the Surface Pro 3.

From reviews I've read, when comparing the Cintiq Companion against the SP3, what it comes down to is: the SP3 is nice but 'you get what you pay for', or just how much of the Wacom 'experience' do you want from the device.

Briefly:

1. SP3 dropped Wacom support and went with ntrig. ntrig supports only 256 levels of pressure vs. Wacom's 2048. Some users are saying that in practice, there seems to be little difference. (I would like to try for myself though, especially with ZBrush or 3D Coat.)

2. SP3 doesn't have the equivalent for Express keys on the bezel. It might not matter to some users because they have a soft equivalent, but for me it's kind of a deal killer. I use the Express keys on my Cintiq WX 13 and Intuos tablets all the time.

3. A fully loaded SP3 costs almost as much as a Cintiq Companion. But if you don't need that much storage or processing power, you can get an SP3 for much cheaper.

4. The Cintiq Companion is a much higher quality device (as expected from Wacom.) The screen is a lot bigger, has a non-glossy matte surface, and it's a more durable device designed specifically for artists on the go. The SP3 is a general purpose tablet that also happens to be a good artists tablet. It has a glossy screen, which makes it less suitable for outdoor use.

A while back, it was reported that there was a latency issue with the SP3 pen. That may have been fixed since, but check more recent reviews to be sure. From what I've read, the Companion's stylus response is flawless.

Personally, I'm holding out for a Cintiq Companion, but it's very pricey and it may be a while before I can justify spending that much on another tablet. (I really need to get a new workstation first.) In the meantime, my trusty old HP tm2 (Wacom and touch enabled tablet convertible) is still my workhorse when I'm on the road.

Re: the Cintiq 13 WX (the desktop version, not the portable version), it's a pretty decent display. After calibration, the color range is not as wide as on my regular LCD but it's not bad. As a tablet it works great but it's really a lot smaller and lower res-ed than I like. I often wind up using it like an Intuos for my big screen, which kinda defeats the purpose of the device. I like that I can put it on my lap but if I could go back and do this again, I would have saved up for the full sized device.

Hope this helps.

G.

Greenlaw
12-06-2014, 03:08 PM
Alternatively, there's iPad and Cintiq Companion Hybrid.

I use an iPad Retina (gen 3) with a Wacom Intuos Creative Stylus 1 & 2. I do a lot of concept art on the device using a paint program called Procreate (http://www.procreate.si/). These days, this is my preferred way to draw when I'm away from my desk. At this time, Procreate isn't compatible with the WICS2 but support should be coming soon. Autodesk Sketchbook already supports the WICS2 but the latency and accuracy is horrible. I'm hoping this is because of Autodesk's implementation and not something inherent about the device. FWIW, WICS2 support for other apps seems to be better, so maybe it's just Autodesk. Anyway, I only really care about how well it will work with Procreate once support is added. Procreate's support for the original WICS is superb though--not exactly like using a Cintiq, but it's the best I've experienced with iPad.

Regarding the WICS stylii: Both versions are bluetooth devices with 2048 levels of pressure. The original version has a larger, squishy tip; the new version 2 has a smaller hard tip. I actually like the squishy tip because if feels more like a brush. Jury is still out for the smaller hard tip--I need to see how well it work with the next Procreate update first. The original WICS needs a replaceable battery but it lasts forever. The new WICS2 is USB rechargeable. Note: the original WICS is no longer available from Wacom.

The downside of course is that iPad is only iOS, so no Windows program support. Thank goodness though for Dropbox and other wifi transfer solutions. :)

The Cintiq Companion Hybrid, being an Android device, also lacks Windows support. However, when not being used as an Android tablet, you can plug it into a regular desktop computer running Windows (and I think Mac too,) and use it like a regular Cintiq. Once connected, I believe there is i/o available to directly move data from the Android device to the desktop--in other words, no wifi needed for transfer. Check the reviews and the website to be sure though as I haven't personally used either model of the Cintiq Companion tablet computers.

The downside for me with the Companion Hybrid is that there is no Procreate available for Android.

Hope this info helps.

G.

Ztreem
12-06-2014, 03:22 PM
I've only briefly tested the surface 3 but I have had a tabletPC for a long time and use a cintiq at work every day. I would go for the surface 3 instead of the Cintiq, you get a full computer and gain the mobility but you loose some level of pressure sensitivity. The fewer steps of pressure sensitivity is not really noticable anyway so that doesn't matter.

Greenlaw
12-06-2014, 03:33 PM
Actually, the Cintiq Companion (http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-displays/cintiq-companion) is a full Windows 8 mobile computer just like the Surface Pro 3, and the difference in pressure levels is 2048 vs 256. Not exactly 'a fewer steps' but according to some users who have used both, the perceptive difference when drawing seems small. I'm guessing that the difference may be more noticeable when sculpting in a 3D program. I'd really like to try for myself though. :)

G

meatycheesyboy
12-06-2014, 04:43 PM
It is, but no worries. Ntrig brought out WinTab drivers for Surface3 shortly after release, and a pressure curve editor a couple of months later.

Thanks for the update. I'm glad I couched my comments with so many qualifiers since I was wrong on almost every level. :)

meatycheesyboy
12-06-2014, 04:45 PM
Briefly:

...

2. SP3 doesn't have the equivalent for Express keys on the bezel. It might not matter to some users because they have a soft equivalent, but for me it's kind of a deal killer. I use the Express keys on my Cintiq WX 13 and Intuos tablets all the time.

...

I know this isn't a perfect alternative for the express keys but on my Surface Pro 1, I've set it up so that I can use a Sony Playstation Move Navigation controller. I hold it in my left hand while using Zbrush then use my right hand for sculpting.

I wrote a post about it here: http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?175538-Microsoft-Surface-Pro&p=1109869&viewfull=1#post1109869

Greenlaw
12-06-2014, 04:51 PM
Now that's pretty cool! :)

ernpchan
12-06-2014, 06:23 PM
At my previous job we had a cintiq companion for evaluation purposes. It's fun to play with. I was surprised at how heavy it is though. Not sure how heavy the SP3 is.

Ztreem
12-06-2014, 06:30 PM
Actually, the Cintiq Companion (http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-displays/cintiq-companion) is a full Windows 8 mobile computer just like the Surface Pro 3, and the difference in pressure levels is 2048 vs 256. Not exactly 'a fewer steps' but according to some users who have used both, the perceptive difference when drawing seems small. I'm guessing that the difference may be more noticeable when sculpting in a 3D program. I'd really like to try for myself though. :)

G

I know, we have the companion at work as well, have not tested it yet. I don't use the express key at all so that no biggie, but if you do it can be a benefit to look at the companion.
I've used the Belkin nostromo game controller for shortcuts before on my tabletpc and it worked really well.
I don't think you will notice much difference between wacoms 2048 levels compared to the tablet 256 in any app, i can only say that I have not noticed any big difference. I personaly feel like this pressure sensitivity levels is just marketing and have no effect on your real work. It feels like only 20 levels anyway when working.

Davewriter
12-06-2014, 09:18 PM
I have the SP2 and was happily surprised with what it Would run and do. That SP3 sure seems sweet. It's much lighter than the SP2. One of the first things they pointed out to me was the change that had been with tossing the Wacom, with all types of assurances being made that "You'll never notice the difference." But I'll admit that both Zbrush & Photoshop are still on my "to do" list as far as learning, so I don't know how much hot air was being blown with the "difference" promises.

jeric_synergy
12-07-2014, 12:18 AM
Hey Greenlaw, I just want to thank you for your many and informed posts on the forum-- they are extremely helpful and I always watch for you in a thread because your info is usually good.

IOW: you da man.

:bowdown:

Greenlaw
12-07-2014, 01:00 AM
Thanks and glad to help! I've benefited from many knowledgeable contributors here and in other forums so sharing what I've picked up is the least I can do. :)

G.

madno
12-07-2014, 01:12 AM
Djwaterman,
you might like to visit this site:

http://surfaceproartist.com/

A lot of information about MS Surface and other Brands. Best is, it has some reviews from professional users.

djwaterman
12-07-2014, 04:03 AM
Thanks everyone, on balance I started to lean towards a SP3, but after watching a few YT videos I noticed that the lag in the pen seems sort of more pronounced in the SP3 compared with the Cintiq13, although both products have some lag when moving the pen quickly. So this makes me feel like the dedicated Cintiq13 is better for illustration as I'm sure the lag would bug me. I've never touched these products and obviously the next step is to find them and try them both, but is my observation correct and is lag even an issue?

Ztreem
12-07-2014, 04:31 AM
Thanks everyone, on balance I started to lean towards a SP3, but after watching a few YT videos I noticed that the lag in the pen seems sort of more pronounced in the SP3 compared with the Cintiq13, although both products have some lag when moving the pen quickly. So this makes me feel like the dedicated Cintiq13 is better for illustration as I'm sure the lag would bug me. I've never touched these products and obviously the next step is to find them and try them both, but is my observation correct and is lag even an issue?

You don't want any lag. Sketching with a lag takes away the whole feeling. I usually don't use photoshop for sketching just because it has a tendency to lag while sketching( faster moves). I prefer ArtRage, Krita, MyPaint and sketchbook pro for sketching. But for renderings I love using photoshop. Just so you know that you can have lags on a wacom too I feel it's more a software thing than a hardware issue. I can do some tests at work on the surface3 if I get the time. I thinking about getting a sp2 so evaluating sp3 could be a good thing to do.
It all depends what you want to do and how you want to do it. At work I have 21" Cintiq on my desk as my main screen for working and it works great. At home I'm more after a flexible and mobile solution as I don't have much time sitting at a desk working, I want the ability to do quick sketches in the couch while the kids sleep.

djwaterman
12-07-2014, 05:40 AM
So does that mean that Krita on the SP2 (or 3) doesn't have a lag issue?

Ztreem
12-07-2014, 10:25 AM
So does that mean that Krita on the SP2 (or 3) doesn't have a lag issue?

I don't know, have to do some tests on the surface to know. But on my old tabletPC that is the same thing but in another format and older, I know that I had no lags in artRage.

Greenlaw
12-07-2014, 11:09 AM
I don't want to muddy your decision but you should to consider how you intend to use the device: Do you expect to work mostly in your studio or out-and-about?

While I don't own an SP3, I do have an HP tm2 which is an 'old-stlye' tablet PC computer designed for similar usage. I use this device every day for a broad range of tasks, including 3D and drawing. Even though it's a Wacom penabled device, it's not as nice as a real Cintiq (desktop model, not Companion.) Even so, the mobile device has been far more useful to me than my Cintiq because I'm away from my workstation most of the day.

I guess if my usual work pattern kept me in my private studio most of the day instead, then I would probably use the desktop Cintiq more than the tablet PC. But during the day I'm more likely to be working at a client's location, coffee shop, restaurant or public library.

BTW, just for background info, the reason I bought my Cintiq 13 several years ago was because I wanted an easily transportable tablet screen to use with a laptop computer. HA! That was definitely not one of my better ideas. The Cintiq 13, while small, is definitely not designed for transportability--theres a breakout box that comes along for the ride with four cables dangling from it. It wasn't long afterwards that I started looking into convertible laptops and Tablet PC devices. (This was years ago, before modern tablets were available. Naturally, these days I'd be looking at an SP3 or a Cintiq Companion.)

There are downsides to using a tablet computer though (modern or old style). They're not nearly as powerful as a desktop computer, so you won't want it as a primary computer if you do a lot of 3D or heavy compositing work. The mobile device screens tend to be glossy and are not suitable for drawing outdoors. (Mine is glossy--I can get use to drawing on it outdoors but it's far from ideal. The Cintiq Companion, on the other hand, has a matte finish screen which works well outdoors.) You can get an anti-glare protector but choose a good one--a poorly made protector can interfere with the touch/stylus capability.

At home, I do like using the tablet PC because it means I can draw and work on the living room sofa. However, if you're concerned about you posture, this is probably one of the worst things for it. I try to move around the house regularly, or occasionally 'force' myself to work at my computer desk (slightly better ergonomics) so I don't get too achy or develop worse back problems than I already have. :p

Also, I wouldn't depend on a mobile computer if color accuracy is critical for your work. I don't know the range of an SP3 but even after calibrating my HP tm2 with a Spyder 4 Elite, it's not as accurate as my desktop LCD (main screen, not Cintiq, after the same calibration. To make matters worse, you can't depend on the calibration of a mobile device screen if you move around to different environments or hold the screen in your hands or lap because viewing angle can also change color perception. The Cintiq (13 for desktop), I find, is better but IMO, the color gamut is still not wide enough to depend on if you do a lot of print work. In color critical situations, I always try to finish my work on a good computer screen in a reasonably light controlled environment.

Finally, consider the Nintendo DS Lite:

Streams: Homebrew (http://www.littlegreendog.com/comics/streams/streams004/streams004.php#.VISUoMm9Yu4)

Okay, that last one's a joke. Maybe. Just for fun, I actually used the DS Lite on a job when I was still working at Rhythm & Hues (that must have been around 2008 or so.) The hack had surprisingly good pressure sensitivity. (I think it was 512 levels or maybe 256, not really sure right now.) Here's some of my DS Lite 'lunchtime doodles' from back then:

Colors! Gallery: Greenlaw (http://colorslive.com/author?id=1262)

Hold the cursor over a thumbnail for additional fun. :D

G.

MSherak
12-07-2014, 01:36 PM
I just got a Surface Pro 3 and I love it. The pressure for the pen works great and feels good in the hand. I have all my software on this thing. LW2015, Maya, Photoshop, Sculptris, Quixel Suite, etc. Runs everything super responsive. I got the high end model so i7, 8gb, 512gb. It's so snappy. Best things about it. The screen resolution of 2160x1440. It's so clean and clear and the touch is super smooth and accurate. It's Super light and thin, 1.76lbs. about as thick as a pad of paper. Full Win8 and has been able to run anything I throw at it. It's a full PC with tablet abilities. I got the Cover keyboard for it which is backlit to my surprise and feels great. And it has a touchpad that has gesture abilities also and thin. The magnet connect is great and it has another strip that creates and angle for the keyboard. The stand angle in the back is awesome. Place it at any angle and it's strong enough to draw on and no movement. Hooked up a bluetooth mouse which is super fast. Even have options to turn off the touchpad when you use a mouse.

I tried a friend Companion and it works great with all the art software but it was heavy and the resolution was a little low for my taste. I tested the SP3 at a Best Buy and decide to go to the Microsoft store to see if they had better software installed to test it. They did. At that point I was sold and got the model I wanted right there. Personally a much better experience than I have had at an apple store.

As for running software. Everything runs great and fast. Even rendering is fast with the i7. You will hear the fan kick in when rendering due to pegging the CPU's. I loaded some a heavy scenes into Lightwave and let it render for a couple hours just to see if oveheats. Performed great. Yes the back got a little hot but I expected that for how thin it is. Photoshop is snappy and fast and also accepts gestures including canvas rotation. No need to rotate the tablet. Total pressure control with the pen. Can't tell the difference between the SP3 and my Wacom on my desktop. Best thing about the pen. The screen input turns off when the pen is on the screen so your hand won't select things. Now to make most of this software work great every artist wants addition input like a keyboard for hotkeys. The great thing is that bluetooth keyboards just hook in.. So I use my old mac mini keyboard when I want to have they keyboard to the side. I did have to find the beta Intel drivers for the video card to gain access to the 3D settings of the video card. And there are lots of options once installed for the geek in me. Also once these were installed the Quixel suite fully worked in Photoshop with the 3D display. Before they were installed the 3D display did not come up.

Now for the rest of the machine. I got the Microsoft display adapter to connect to my TV. Nice small device gives me a second screen where I stream video apps to the second screen. All being wireless there is never a hiccup or lag. Nice thing is that most tv stations have dedicated apps for Win8. And the machine multitasks very well. I even tried Guild Wars 2 on this machine and get 30fps at full resolution. Very impressed with the 3D on the Surface Pro 3. Pretty much everything I have thrown at it works great. Battery lasts about 5-6 hours streaming video. Rendering will eat the battery faster but just for setup and modeling it lasts a long time. Oh an another nice thing. It has two cameras with enough resolution to grab a photo as a texture. Even has the ability to do a spherical capture. Overall I would totally recommend the Surface Pro 3 to any 3D artist that wants the ability to have their tools mobile.

-M

PS. This machine sold me on SSD. Amazed me so much I bought one for my desktop unit to replace my boot drive. WOW what a difference.

jeric_synergy
12-07-2014, 01:49 PM
Wow, a lot of info... sorry if this is asking you to repeat yourself, but: No problem hooking up a 2nd monitor to the SP3?

++++
$2 grand.... I think I'd be handcuffing it to my wrist at the coffee shop......

MSherak
12-07-2014, 02:23 PM
I hooked it up to one of my 24" computer displays through the display port and it works perfect. I also have this http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Microsoft-Wireless-Display-Adapter/productID.308216600 attached to my TV. You can run anything you want on the second screen. Nice thing about the adapter for the tv is the audio come out of the TV.

I also got a http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/productID.306257400?srccode=cii_17588969&cpncode=42-16351754-2&WT.mc_id=US_datafeed_Google and it just looks like you are carrying a daily planner and not a full blown computer.

Want to get super stealthy get a decal for it. https://www.decalgirl.com/skins/227965/Microsoft-Surface-Pro-3-Skin-Composition-Notebook

:)

jeric_synergy
12-07-2014, 03:06 PM
I should get an eMachine's decal... somebody'd probably LEAVE a couple bucks on my table.....

Greenlaw
12-07-2014, 03:30 PM
I'm bookmarking this thread--lots of good info in here. :)

JoePoe
12-08-2014, 10:01 AM
@ MSherak...How about a Benchmark Marbles Test (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?133251-11-5-s-BenchmarkMarbles-lws-share-your-machine-s-render-time-here)?! .... Please :).

MSherak
12-08-2014, 05:16 PM
I can try.. Don't think it is going to render faster than any desktop unit but it will render it though.

MSherak
12-09-2014, 12:33 PM
So after 4 hours and still saying it had a hour to go I stopped it.. Needed to do somethings.. Have to remember it's only a 2 processor cpu with 4 threads. http://ark.intel.com/products/75114/Intel-Core-i7-4650U-Processor-4M-Cache-up-to-3_30-GHz and this is a very instense scene to test the rendering of a machine.

I was running at about 2.6mhz on average during the rendering. This is how it makes sure not to overheat is by a flexible Mhz adjustment on the fly. Will have to do more tests with the mhz since the max is 3.3. But you also have to remember.. This is a frigin tablet.. Amazing!!!!

-m

JoePoe
12-09-2014, 01:40 PM
Hey, thanks for trying that. :bowdown:

For some reason I had it in my head that it was a quad.
But you're right.... still Amazing! :)

Silkrooster
12-17-2014, 11:24 PM
I ended up getting a surface 3 I7 256GB tablet. So far I love it. I don't recall if I have the latest version of lightwave on it or not, but it should be one of the newest versions.
I found that with the pen the perspective may spin out of control trying to use the icons. But runs correctly with a wireless mouse.
A keyboard is a must for anyone use to the shortcut keys. When using the pen, you may prefer to use a wireless keyboard so that it can set next to the tablet without affecting your arm.
So far I am not seeing any lag while drawing - the exception is the brushes in photoshop that behave like a real brush.
Zbrush seams fine so far.
Doing a quick sketch on the tablet is about like on paper, but the glass is very smooth so you don't get the drag that you normally would feel so that may take some time getting use to.
As for how fast is the SSD well from a cold start, booting windows, signing in and accessing most any program is within seconds, depending on the program.
I get about 6 hours of battery life before requiring a recharge. I have not timed it yet, but I believe the recharge from 10% to 100% is about 2 to 3 hours.
As for the wireless video adapter, I have had a few hiccups with it, it seams to skip with animation but is fine for stills. I have been told it is a video driver issue and should be fixed soon. I know it is not the adapter as a kindle fire plays smooth animation on it. (hbo go)
The adapter when using the surface is extremely easy to use. Once the adapter is connected to a hdmi connector and a usb power source, it will tell you on the TV to sync your device. Once that is done, you can extend your display, or mirror the video.

jwiede
12-18-2014, 02:28 AM
I ended up getting a surface 3 I7 256GB tablet. So far I love it. I don't recall if I have the latest version of lightwave on it or not, but it should be one of the newest versions.
I found that with the pen the perspective may spin out of control trying to use the icons. But runs correctly with a wireless mouse.
A keyboard is a must for anyone use to the shortcut keys. When using the pen, you may prefer to use a wireless keyboard so that it can set next to the tablet without affecting your arm.
So far I am not seeing any lag while drawing - the exception is the brushes in photoshop that behave like a real brush.
Zbrush seams fine so far.
Doing a quick sketch on the tablet is about like on paper, but the glass is very smooth so you don't get the drag that you normally would feel so that may take some time getting use to.
As for how fast is the SSD well from a cold start, booting windows, signing in and accessing most any program is within seconds, depending on the program.
I get about 6 hours of battery life before requiring a recharge. I have not timed it yet, but I believe the recharge from 10% to 100% is about 2 to 3 hours.
As for the wireless video adapter, I have had a few hiccups with it, it seams to skip with animation but is fine for stills. I have been told it is a video driver issue and should be fixed soon. I know it is not the adapter as a kindle fire plays smooth animation on it. (hbo go)
The adapter when using the surface is extremely easy to use. Once the adapter is connected to a hdmi connector and a usb power source, it will tell you on the TV to sync your device. Once that is done, you can extend your display, or mirror the video.
"View spins out of control": Be sure you're changing to "tablet" mode in LW prefs, I believe what you're describing is a known result of using tablet in LW "mouse" mode.
"glass is very smooth": Ghost Armor (check web for locations) has a matte screen guard for Surface 3 that gives a much more paper-like texture when drawing using the pen, without impacting the pen operation. Just be sure to get the matte screen guard, not the glossy one.
"wireless display adapter": I love mine. Full-screen-size animation can occasionally skip, Miracast has limits esp. when down-scaling (esp. w.r.t. "non-cardinal" scale factor). A workaround is to drop display to 1920x1080 while 'casting so that Miracast doesn't need to downscale, that should help with skips.

Ztreem
12-18-2014, 06:00 AM
I did a quick comparison between my wacom 21" cintiq and the surface 3 i7 version.
And even if I can feel some difference, the surface felt a little slower, but I will not call it a lag. I only feel the minimal slow down when I switch between the two. If I Only work on the surface I don't feel like its slow or anything, so I would only call it's different not slower. which doesn't matter as you get used to the one you use.
Pressure sensitivity wise I feel minimal to no difference. I want to feel a bigger difference as it's 256 vs 2048 levels, this feels more like a marketing hype. I would want to say that both have around 10-25 levels, based on how it feels when sketching.
If I was only after a digital sketchpad I would go for the surface as it's more mobile and flexible. You can also use the surface as a traditional tablet if you connect a second screen to it, didn't test this myself, but sounds like a nice feature.

djwaterman
12-18-2014, 06:33 AM
I just went and bought a Surface Pro 3 i7 tonight and have been testing it out, I haven't installed Photoshop on it yet but I downloaded the 64bit version of Krita and tested that, and I can not get any pressure sensitivity on the pen at all. Where are the pressure sensitivity controls located? The note pad app doesn't seem to have pressure sensitivity either (in anycase i'm not going to be using that app). I'm just not able to test whether its working or not and am a little disappointed.

Greenlaw
12-18-2014, 06:36 AM
Keep the first hand info coming guys! This thread is getting very interesting. :)

G.

Ztreem
12-18-2014, 08:46 AM
I just went and bought a Surface Pro 3 i7 tonight and have been testing it out, I haven't installed Photoshop on it yet but I downloaded the 64bit version of Krita and tested that, and I can not get any pressure sensitivity on the pen at all. Where are the pressure sensitivity controls located? The note pad app doesn't seem to have pressure sensitivity either (in anycase i'm not going to be using that app). I'm just not able to test whether its working or not and am a little disappointed.

I had the same problem, it may be that you need to use Krita sketch or gemini to get it to work, on my cintiq Krita works fine. I tried Photoshop and it worked fine on the surface, my tests was in a document size of 5000*3500 pixels and it was smooth as butter. I liked that I could pan and rotate the paper with my left hand and sketch with my right hand. When I did use the touch to pan and rotate the paper it was a little slugish but if I used the shortcut for the same operation it was as smooth as on my workstation.

djwaterman
12-18-2014, 09:10 AM
These issues are so annoying, things can never just work out of the box. My wife is taking it away with her to Hong Kong tomorrow, so I won't get a chance to see if it performs better in Photoshop or anything else. I can't seem to log into the Krita forums either anymore so I''m unable to get any answers from them. I'd have loved to be using Krita, such a nice program.

Ztreem
12-18-2014, 02:38 PM
These issues are so annoying, things can never just work out of the box. My wife is taking it away with her to Hong Kong tomorrow, so I won't get a chance to see if it performs better in Photoshop or anything else. I can't seem to log into the Krita forums either anymore so I''m unable to get any answers from them. I'd have loved to be using Krita, such a nice program.

The surface 3 is not using wacom tech anymore, maybe thats why Krita isn't working?

jwiede
12-18-2014, 04:34 PM
I just went and bought a Surface Pro 3 i7 tonight and have been testing it out, I haven't installed Photoshop on it yet but I downloaded the 64bit version of Krita and tested that, and I can not get any pressure sensitivity on the pen at all. Where are the pressure sensitivity controls located? The note pad app doesn't seem to have pressure sensitivity either (in anycase i'm not going to be using that app). I'm just not able to test whether its working or not and am a little disappointed.

Go to www.ntrig.com and download latest WinTAB support driver. Then go to Windows App Store and install the "Surface Hub" application per this MS support article (http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/support/apps-and-windows-store/surface-hub-app). That should resolve your pressure sensitivity issues.

MSherak
12-18-2014, 06:49 PM
Go to www.ntrig.com and download latest WinTAB support driver. Then go to Windows App Store and install the "Surface Hub" application per this MS support article (http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/support/apps-and-windows-store/surface-hub-app). That should resolve your pressure sensitivity issues.

Yup. beat me too it..

jwiede
12-19-2014, 01:37 AM
The surface 3 is not using wacom tech anymore, maybe thats why Krita isn't working?

Haven't tried Krita specifically, but once you install ntrig WinTAB stuff everything should work normally. I've had no real issues with Painter2015, PD Howler, ArtRageStudio, MangaStudio, SketchbookPro, etc. once I got the WinTAB stuff installed, and used Surface Hub to tweak pressure curve to my liking.

Silkrooster
12-19-2014, 02:25 AM
"View spins out of control": Be sure you're changing to "tablet" mode in LW prefs, I believe what you're describing is a known result of using tablet in LW "mouse" mode.
"glass is very smooth": Ghost Armor (check web for locations) has a matte screen guard for Surface 3 that gives a much more paper-like texture when drawing using the pen, without impacting the pen operation. Just be sure to get the matte screen guard, not the glossy one.
"wireless display adapter": I love mine. Full-screen-size animation can occasionally skip, Miracast has limits esp. when down-scaling (esp. w.r.t. "non-cardinal" scale factor). A workaround is to drop display to 1920x1080 while 'casting so that Miracast doesn't need to downscale, that should help with skips.

1) I tried both mouse and tablet mode, neither worked correctly. (I found the tablet mode to not be calibrated correctly or it might work, if I recall that is)
2)Never heard of ghost armor, I will be checking it out.
3)Never thought of that, I assumed it did it automatically. I can not remember if ever checked the resolution setting, as I know it will change if direct connected, as that is what happens on the laptop. I will be trying it.

Much appreciated...

Silkrooster
12-19-2014, 03:06 AM
Go to www.ntrig.com and download latest WinTAB support driver. Then go to Windows App Store and install the "Surface Hub" application per this MS support article (http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/support/apps-and-windows-store/surface-hub-app). That should resolve your pressure sensitivity issues.

I hope you don't mind, I forwarded your post to the illustrator forum, where someone there was having pen issues.

MSherak
12-19-2014, 10:05 AM
Haven't tried Krita specifically, but once you install ntrig WinTAB stuff everything should work normally. I've had no real issues with Painter2015, PD Howler, ArtRageStudio, MangaStudio, SketchbookPro, etc. once I got the WinTAB stuff installed, and used Surface Hub to tweak pressure curve to my liking.

I could not get Painter2015 demo to install and run.. :(

jwiede
12-22-2014, 01:02 PM
I could not get Painter2015 demo to install and run.. :(

What error did it give? Was it the install that failed, or the app itself?

I was able to install the release (purchased) version without any problems, but maybe your issue will be something I've seen before.

MSherak
12-22-2014, 01:32 PM
It would not launch the UI. Might be due to it being the Demo since you got yours installed and running..

sami
12-22-2014, 09:13 PM
I ended up getting a surface 3 I7 256GB tablet. So far I love it. I don't recall if I have the latest version of lightwave on it or not, but it should be one of the newest versions.
I found that with the pen the perspective may spin out of control trying to use the icons. But runs correctly with a wireless mouse.
A keyboard is a must for anyone use to the shortcut keys. When using the pen, you may prefer to use a wireless keyboard so that it can set next to the tablet without affecting your arm.
So far I am not seeing any lag while drawing - the exception is the brushes in photoshop that behave like a real brush.
Zbrush seams fine so far.
Doing a quick sketch on the tablet is about like on paper, but the glass is very smooth so you don't get the drag that you normally would feel so that may take some time getting use to.
As for how fast is the SSD well from a cold start, booting windows, signing in and accessing most any program is within seconds, depending on the program.
I get about 6 hours of battery life before requiring a recharge. I have not timed it yet, but I believe the recharge from 10% to 100% is about 2 to 3 hours.
As for the wireless video adapter, I have had a few hiccups with it, it seams to skip with animation but is fine for stills. I have been told it is a video driver issue and should be fixed soon. I know it is not the adapter as a kindle fire plays smooth animation on it. (hbo go)
The adapter when using the surface is extremely easy to use. Once the adapter is connected to a hdmi connector and a usb power source, it will tell you on the TV to sync your device. Once that is done, you can extend your display, or mirror the video.

How do you find its durability? I'm considering one of these, but I read the surface pro 3 is one of the most breakable tablets.. it's clearly more than a tablet and akin to a power laptop, but I'm wondering if the form factor will get me tossing it on the bed or the couch like I do with my iPad or fire tablet, and those are pretty durable. I'd hate to break it by day to day use.

Also are the fans terribly noisy? Thanks :)

djwaterman
12-23-2014, 04:42 AM
I know I dropped mine from standing height onto the floor as I slid open the box it came in (Holding box upside down I guess), luckily the floor was carpeted, and the SP3 booted up okay. Regarding Krita and pen pressure, it's an issue the Krita team are aware of and they are developing a patch to deal with it.

djwaterman
01-15-2015, 05:26 AM
Okay, I've had about week with it now as it's back from Hong Kong along with my wife and everything is fine regarding the pen pressure and so on. One thing though, and it's a biggy for me, is the slippy slidy glass, I find it very hard to maintain accuracy with the nib. I've seen some Youtube clips where they use a matte anti-glare screen protector, and the one I've seen demonstrated is the Illumishield brand, this helps to somewhat reduce the smoothness of the glass.
The thing is, these reviews are really about the anti-glare and protective qualities and not so much focused on the pen feel of the matte surface (I guess for most users this isn't important).

Is anyone using a particular brand screen protector that helps give a more paper-like feel for the pen? Just thought it worth asking before I purchase the Illumishield.

Greenlaw
01-15-2015, 09:34 AM
Now I'm lusting after the new Cintiq Companion 2 (http://www.wacom.com/en-us/announcements/cintiq-companion-2), expected to ship spring. Wacom is planning to release it in five different models, including a version competitively priced against the Surface Pro 3, and the high end model is faster and more powerful than the original. Screen res is a bit higher now too and, unlike the original Companion, Companion 2 can also be used like a regular Cintiq on a Mac or PC. Don't know what kind of graphics chip it has yet.

G.

MSherak
01-15-2015, 12:00 PM
Okay, I've had about week with it now as it's back from Hong Kong along with my wife and everything is fine regarding the pen pressure and so on. One thing though, and it's a biggy for me, is the slippy slidy glass, I find it very hard to maintain accuracy with the nib. I've seen some Youtube clips where they use a matte anti-glare screen protector, and the one I've seen demonstrated is the Illumishield brand, this helps to somewhat reduce the smoothness of the glass.
The thing is, these reviews are really about the anti-glare and protective qualities and not so much focused on the pen feel of the matte surface (I guess for most users this isn't important).

Is anyone using a particular brand screen protector that helps give a more paper-like feel for the pen? Just thought it worth asking before I purchase the Illumishield.



Have not installed one on my SP3. But was looking into this. http://www.amazon.com/Tech-Armor-Generation-Anti-Glare-Anti-Fingerprint/product-reviews/B00KMC5RIG/ref=cm_cr_if?ie=UTF8&linkCode=xm2&showViewpoints=0&tag=All#R2MN228O6ZBN91

-M

Silkrooster
01-15-2015, 05:39 PM
I have seen a few recommendations for screen protectors, I guess they have a little bit of padding, which can help with creating the friction needed.
Sooner or later I will need to get one as I find it a bit difficult to write on the slippery screen.

MSherak
01-15-2015, 06:19 PM
I have seen a few recommendations for screen protectors, I guess they have a little bit of padding, which can help with creating the friction needed.
Sooner or later I will need to get one as I find it a bit difficult to write on the slippery screen.

Another trick is get a art glove.. http://magazine.artstation.com/2014/10/cg-art-glove-promises-clean-cintiq-draw/

I like the smoothness of the SP3 when drawing or scuplting, but can be a hindrance in modeler and layout when going for precision movements.

-M

djwaterman
01-15-2015, 06:29 PM
Thanks MSherak, the Tech Armor sounds like another option worth looking at.

lightscape
01-15-2015, 09:12 PM
Is anyone using a particular brand screen protector that helps give a more paper-like feel for the pen? Just thought it worth asking before I purchase the Illumishield.


Your pen will wear down quickly with a rougher surface. I've used screen protectors(cheap generics) for all my wacoms and don't mind the smooth surface. You get used to it. Most of my wacoms are still in mint condition because of this and I haven't changed a nib, too. The newer Adroids have stylus included and it was no different for me using them with a smooth surface.

djwaterman
01-15-2015, 11:34 PM
Yeah that's true, but the nibs are replaceable. That said I'm getting a little better with the smooth surface but will still want to try it with the matte surface.

lightscape
01-17-2015, 10:04 PM
Yeah that's true, but the nibs are replaceable. That said I'm getting a little better with the smooth surface but will still want to try it with the matte surface.

You wouldn't have to replace nibs if you use a screen protector. :D

jwiede
01-20-2015, 12:21 PM
Is anyone using a particular brand screen protector that helps give a more paper-like feel for the pen? Just thought it worth asking before I purchase the Illumishield.

Local mall here in San Jose, CA has a "Ghost Armor" stand, I swear by their matte-finish protectors for all my devices (incl. Surface3). YMMV, not sure whether they're a national chain, but I'm fairly sure I've seen them in WA as well.

jwiede
01-20-2015, 12:24 PM
Another trick is get a art glove.. http://magazine.artstation.com/2014/10/cg-art-glove-promises-clean-cintiq-draw/

Ah, that's a great idea! I'll have to see if they're still allowing buy-ins. Thanks for the pointer!

sculptactive
01-20-2015, 12:37 PM
Local mall here in San Jose, CA has a "Ghost Armor" stand, I swear by their matte-finish protectors for all my devices (incl. Surface3). YMMV, not sure whether they're a national chain, but I'm fairly sure I've seen them in WA as well.

Does the matte-finish make the images harder to see/read?

jwiede
01-21-2015, 07:13 PM
Does the matte-finish make the images harder to see/read?

Not at all, at least IME (YMMV). It's held by suction, not adhesive, so removal should be largely harmless. Ask questions before purchase like "if I get image problems can I return for refund?". I recall hearing they're pretty good about that, though I've never had to return anything to them myself.

djwaterman
01-22-2015, 02:39 AM
Ghost Armor, never heard of it, but here in Sydney you can't just walk into a local mall and buy this sort of stuff. On their website it's not entirely clear if they ship outside of the US. You're the first person (jwiede) to actually be using the product your recommending so I have to take this on board and add it to the list.

scratch33
01-22-2015, 06:24 AM
Now I'm lusting after the new Cintiq Companion 2 (http://www.wacom.com/en-us/announcements/cintiq-companion-2), expected to ship spring. Wacom is planning to release it in five different models, including a version competitively priced against the Surface Pro 3, and the high end model is faster and more powerful than the original. Screen res is a bit higher now too and, unlike the original Companion, Companion 2 can also be used like a regular Cintiq on a Mac or PC. Don't know what kind of graphics chip it has yet.

G.

Hi,

Are you sure that you can't use the original companion like a cintiq?
What is the use of the displayport then?

I'm about to buy a companion and this is very important to me to know this.

Thanks

scratch33
01-22-2015, 06:36 AM
Sorry my mistake, nothing to do with displayport.

You are right Greenlaw. The companion hybrid(android)can be used like a cintiq plugin it on a pc but not the companion(windows)