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prometheus
12-05-2014, 05:42 AM
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/news/blog/#p73

Maybe be of interest, I do hope they have adressed more of ozones shortcomings, If I got the time and dear to install it ..I will do so, I recall ozone 6 version was completly destroying my lightwave install at some point, after I installed it I couldnīt get lightwave to work properly, so I have been reluctant to test the versions after point 6.

My main issues with ozone otherwise was...

1.Not working with lightwaves VPR while tweaking, (ogo taiki volumetric atmospere plugin does)
2.Lacks the cloud detail tab settings that is present in vue.
3.lacks the ability to use and control cloud density with the fractals available in vue. (ogo taiki volumetric atmospere plugin can use any fractal and control with lightwaves procedural textures)
4.lacks rotation controls.
5.volumetric interaction with lightwave object never worked for me.

6. only spectral 2 clouds are decent in speed rendering, the most advanced are to slow..it requires access to renderfarms to do animations anyway.

So that is some main issues I need to check if they have done anything about, I fear though that it is merely improvement in the lighting and shading realistic model that has been done, which also probably made it even slower to render.

I will not install it with the lightwave 2015, since I donīt plan to upgrade to lightwave 2015 and the demo trial limits further use, so I better stick to install the ple with lightwave 11.6.
I urge you other guys who will use lightwave 2015 ..to test it out and see how it works with that and report with feedback on it.

Oldcode
12-05-2014, 10:32 AM
I tried Ozone, and even Vue xStream PLE a few years ago. Not only were they resource hogs and very unstable, but when I had my Lightwave Real Flow plugin installed, they simply would not work at all. I know much as been said on this, but I don't understand how e-on makes any money with software that's so expensive yet so buggy.

willin
12-05-2014, 11:04 AM
Yeah, I gave up on e-on long ago and will never return.

OlaHaldor
12-05-2014, 11:25 AM
I purchased Ozone.. 2.. ? It was completely rubbish. So when Ozone 3 came, they claimed in their PR that they have worked hard on the LW implementation and it would be more stable, faster etc.. I fell for it. And you know what? RUBBISH!

I'll rather do clouds with TFD.

3dworks
12-05-2014, 11:27 AM
thanks for the heads up, even as an ozone 2014 customer, i didn't get any notice for this free update. when i have time i will check how it is going with LW 2015, at least the names match, lol.

prometheus
12-05-2014, 12:16 PM
I donīt think it is rubbish, but it has some serious feature lacks that should be there to make good use of it, turbulenceFd, well, that only gives you some certain clouds, and you donīt have that realism in the actual shading and shadows..and good luck trying to fill the whole sky with that.

and how would you work out the rest of the atmosphere properties like fog etc, for that a sky atmosphere is needed, and there isnīt anyone that can produce godrays except for ogo taiki.

working with volumetric lights in conjunction with hypervoxels, well put yourself in coma and let it render, and working it with turbulence..not as good either.

Try this with turbulenceFD...



http://vimeo.com/39122792




http://vimeo.com/39072395

prometheus
12-05-2014, 12:21 PM
thanks for the heads up, even as an ozone 2014 customer, i didn't get any notice for this free update. when i have time i will check how it is going with LW 2015, at least the names match, lol.


on the site it says..only support lightwave 11.6 as for know, but who knows..it might work.

willin
12-06-2014, 12:55 AM
I donīt think it is rubbish, but it has some serious feature lacks that should be there to make good use of it, turbulenceFd, well, that only gives you some certain clouds, and you donīt have that realism in the actual shading and shadows..and good luck trying to fill the whole sky with that.

and how would you work out the rest of the atmosphere properties like fog etc, for that a sky atmosphere is needed, and there isnīt anyone that can produce godrays except for ogo taiki.

working with volumetric lights in conjunction with hypervoxels, well put yourself in coma and let it render, and working it with turbulence..not as good either.

Yep you are describing rubbish. It just might work for you if you are after a single shot. For animation for a freelancer the whole e-on line is expensive rubbish. And i am not saying this because of the expense. Realflow is expensive but it is usable and you will produce what it promises within a reasonable time. E-ON software pretty much unusable for animation if you are a freelancer and have deadlines to meet.

prometheus
12-06-2014, 01:03 AM
Yep you are describing rubbish. It just might work for you if you are after a single shot. For animation for a freelancer the whole e-on line is expensive rubbish. And i am not saying this because of the expense. Realflow is expensive but it is usable and you will produce what it promises within a reasonable time. E-ON software pretty much unusable for animation if you are a freelancer and have deadlines to meet.

what I described (in the last post) was turbulenceFD and hypervoxels.....

well..how do you find another volumetric system to do the animation? you will still be stuck with long rendertimes anyway, and if you are doing a seriously long animation, go with renderfarms.
I havenīt seen any other system capable of delivering equally realisting environment and render at least twice as fast, if you use terragen..well go to coma and donīt bother to wake up.
ozone or vue isnīt really that slow compared to what it has to confront in those complex algorithms, well it feels slow..but there arenīt really othe volumetric systems doing it faster, except for those sandbox experimental
demos from some guys mostly aimed for games, and those are realtime.

the spectral 3 layers are a little too slow for me to work with really, but spectral 2 works decently, with exception if you have to turn on raymarching for it all with the combination of hypervoxels and ozone clouds, that will make renders extremly long too.
hereīs some stats of that....in the description below the clip...


http://vimeo.com/21359403



Michael

tcoursey
12-08-2014, 08:17 AM
I think the real issue is LW is always a last effort on integration with them. The feature videos are always showing C4D Max and Maya. I'm sure they are better, they almost have to be to still be in business you would think, like others stated.

biggest complaint I've had is it seems you don't have enough control over the quality settings. They have to mash together two different render engines together and that seems like an issue to begin with! They have always had some great looks if you have 10x time your regular render time to include in scenes!

I tried 2015PLE and seems better in certain areas but not in speed so much. Will continue to check it out and play with it, watch it as they continue to develop.

prometheus
12-08-2014, 09:52 AM
I think the real issue is LW is always a last effort on integration with them. The feature videos are always showing C4D Max and Maya. I'm sure they are better, they almost have to be to still be in business you would think, like others stated.

biggest complaint I've had is it seems you don't have enough control over the quality settings. They have to mash together two different render engines together and that seems like an issue to begin with! They have always had some great looks if you have 10x time your regular render time to include in scenes!

I tried 2015PLE and seems better in certain areas but not in speed so much. Will continue to check it out and play with it, watch it as they continue to develop.

I donīt agree fully with you on the statement of Lw is always a last effort on them, it may be that focus is on maya and cinema4d, but the lack of features I mentioned is as far as I know just the same in max,maya and c4d, itīs a limitation in ozone and not in lightwave.. when it comes to the lack of cloud detail tab and the noise node functionality, and I donīt think the other softare can provide a full screen preview with VPR either, it may in fact be that neither c4d or max has such option like lightwave has to at least preview the scene with vpr, you can at least do that when you close the ozone editor, they have improved on the internal previewer to be bigger, but it canīt compete with the full scale VPR and the feedback you get having such large view..and for instance working with ogo taiki which you can tweak in full VPR glory.

for quality, well you have to learn what those two renderers do for the quality, and it shouldnīt be that of a problem...in that area ozone leads over ogo taiki, which can be very hard to get to grips on quality settings that are scattered in more
tabs than you really want.

tcoursey
12-08-2014, 10:05 AM
I donīt agree fully with you on the statement of Lw is always a last effort on them, it may be that focus is on maya and cinema4d, but the lack of features I mentioned is as far as I know just the same in max,maya and c4d, itīs a limitation in ozone and not in lightwave.. when it comes to the lack of cloud detail tab and the noise node functionality, and I donīt think the other softare can provide a full screen preview with VPR either, it may in fact be that neither c4d or max has such option like lightwave has to at least preview the scene with vpr, you can at least do that when you close the ozone editor, they have improved on the internal previewer to be bigger, but it canīt compete with the full scale VPR and the feedback you get having such large view..and for instance working with ogo taiki which you can tweak in full VPR glory.

for quality, well you have to learn what those two renderers do for the quality, and it shouldnīt be that of a problem...in that area ozone leads over ogo taiki, which can be very hard to get to grips on quality settings that are scattered in more
tabs than you really want.

It was truly only an assumption on my part, as LW usually doesn't get the love other apps do. I probably shouldn't jump to those conclusions I guess. I have always wanted Ozone to work better...we bought it way back in 2-3 version...watched it again in 5 but just never has got there for our production environment. I see Vue being used in different environments and it does seem quite capable, but could just be good marketing :).

prometheus
12-08-2014, 10:34 AM
It was truly only an assumption on my part, as LW usually doesn't get the love other apps do. I probably shouldn't jump to those conclusions I guess. I have always wanted Ozone to work better...we bought it way back in 2-3 version...watched it again in 5 but just never has got there for our production environment. I see Vue being used in different environments and it does seem quite capable, but could just be good marketing :).

yes..vue is used more and more in environment, but that isnīt ozone, vue is easier to get to grips on quality VS rendertime, and you got functions in the atmopshere editor that isnīt there in ozone, cloud detail tab and the function editor.

vue, nice if you can deal with the pricing and also for large animations can use a good renderfarm option, ozone...well, I think it needs to solve those issues of the lacking features, once that is done....we could use a full editable tweaking panel while VPR updates...thatīs all I think, and some better cloud fractals, lw cloud fractals are by itīs default nature better than what was included with vue noise functions, I think the vue plugin helios surpassed that with completly new fractals designed for clouds.

My dream (seems to only stay as a dream) would be for the lw team to develop something of their own, if they canīt get rights to the ogo taiki code, they should work on something similar, but make it a bit faster and easier to setup, the sky properties could be adapted from something like dp_sunsky ..which makes the air scattering realistic in a spectral model way as opposed to ogo taike which has a lot of other diffuse volumetric models, but then again..dp sunsky isnīt providing any raycasting volumetric atmosphere with volumetric sunlight ..nor does it have cloud layers.

Ogo taiki is a bit to slow and hard to set up to make use of it in a really good effective way, but it can use any lightwave fractal for clouds, can do volumetric lights and fog, use particles and use heat refraction and also do planetary views..which canīt be done with ozone.

prometheus
12-09-2014, 08:37 AM
this is ridiculous, I was just about to install the ple, when checking lightwave 11.6, the installer opens up a browser to choose the lightwave application folder, but there is no way to browse to it, I can only access desktop items or folders in my library...weird.
first impressions, I canīt even get it to install :(
and I started the installation with admin rights.

Michael

tcoursey
12-09-2014, 08:42 AM
this is ridiculous, I was just about to install the ple, when checking lightwave 11.6, the installer opens up a browser to choose the lightwave application folder, but there is no way to browse to it, I can only access desktop items or folders in my library...weird.
first impressions, I canīt even get it to install :(
and I started the installation with admin rights.

Michael

Yea I remember the first time I installed it (PLE) it was a bit wierd....but I figured that it did put the plugin file under the utilities directory in LW plugins folder I think it was. I don't remember having an issue choosing where it found LW at, I think it just found it on my machine....

prometheus
12-09-2014, 10:19 AM
Yea I remember the first time I installed it (PLE) it was a bit wierd....but I figured that it did put the plugin file under the utilities directory in LW plugins folder I think it was. I don't remember having an issue choosing where it found LW at, I think it just found it on my machine....

I still canīt find a way to acess the program folders, if I click on those previously installe versions..it will pop up requester and the ability to choose from c drive what ever I want, but not the 11.6 version..it only gives me option to browse through
my user account folder.

I wonder if it has something to do with 32 bit versus 64 bit, as I think those previous were installations in lightwave 10 and 11 64 bit, but now I am trying on lw 11.6 32 bit, maybe the ozone plugin only works with 64 bit now?
its frustrating when you canīt get going with the installation and you have a little time to start trying it.
I have sent a mail to some of their support system ..which is horrible set up, and I have posted on their forum..so have to wait and see.

Michael

tcoursey
12-09-2014, 10:49 AM
I still canīt find a way to acess the program folders, if I click on those previously installe versions..it will pop up requester and the ability to choose from c drive what ever I want, but not the 11.6 version..it only gives me option to browse through
my user account folder.

I wonder if it has something to do with 32 bit versus 64 bit, as I think those previous were installations in lightwave 10 and 11 64 bit, but now I am trying on lw 11.6 32 bit, maybe the ozone plugin only works with 64 bit now?
its frustrating when you canīt get going with the installation and you have a little time to start trying it.
I have sent a mail to some of their support system ..which is horrible set up, and I have posted on their forum..so have to wait and see.

Michael

Yea strange and frustrating for sure. All I can confirm is when I installed I was on Win 8.1 64 using LW 11.6.3 (it only showed LW 11.6 as I remember) When I selected a different directory (it did give me an option as I remember to poke around) I was thinking I was telling it where to put the plugin, because I couldn't find it the first go around. It gave an error if I didn't give it the proper LW directory it was installed in, which was correctly selected in the installer.

I wonder if your right about 32 vs 64...kind of would make sense going to only 64 for such a program... Good luck!

gerry_g
12-09-2014, 12:29 PM
Old version was 64bit and ran jus fine(ish) in LW 11.6.3, new one can always be placed manually in the Lightwave < utilities< plugins folder but it won't run because it is still in process of being updated AFAIK

prometheus
12-09-2014, 01:04 PM
Old version was 64bit and ran jus fine(ish) in LW 11.6.3, new one can always be placed manually in the Lightwave < utilities< plugins folder but it won't run because it is still in process of being updated AFAIK

donīt follow that, I am trying 32 bit here, and I canīt place anything manually when I canīt even install it.

prometheus
12-09-2014, 01:26 PM
I just got a reply in the e-on forums from one of the support guys, asking me about admin rights, but I started it with admin rights so ..donīt think that is an issue, have to wait and see what else they say.

prometheus
12-09-2014, 01:50 PM
Bummer..yes it was 64 bit only, I canīt understand why I didnīt noticed that, maybe because there was no system requirement info on the release page nor the download page, but it was on the purchase page.
have to install the lw 64 bit then.

http://www.ozone-plugin.com/purchase/

System Requirements

Windows

Windows XP/Vista/Windows 7/Windows 8 - 64 bit only,
2GHz Pentium IV or better processor,
1GB of free RAM,
200 MB of free Hard Disk space,
1200x768 in 65K colors/16 bits (24+ bits recommended).
Macintosh

Mac OS X v10.6+ - 64 bit only,
2GHz Intel processor or faster,
1GB of free RAM,
200 MB of free Hard Disk space,
1200x768 in 65K colors/16 bits (24+ bits recommended).

gerry_g
12-09-2014, 01:56 PM
I'm on a Mac, Ozone 6 was 64bit ONLY (on a Mac), new version same will install but won't load, haven't tried it in 11.6.3, not helpful that the plugin is still labeled 'OZONE 4' you would kind of think if only to stop confusion they might at least relabel it, CloudFactory Ozone 2015 - Build 7019485 is latest beta but has a realise date (7.31.2014) that precedes the one I have installed (11.25.2014) go figure, used to be rider on Ozone site saying LW version still to be updated to run with 2015 they have since removed it as far as I can see. Going back and looking it does clearly state on the site even the Windows version XP onwards is 64bit ONLY and that it only supports LW 11+ not 2015

prometheus
12-17-2014, 04:04 PM
So ..I just Installed 64 bit version of lightwave 11.6.3 then installed ozone 2015 and tried it for 30 minutes or so, the impressions are what I thought it would be..and that is why I really didnīt bother install until giving it a chance right now.

I posted some initial feedback on my issues with it in the ozone forum, I will wait and see if some of the e-on support guys can solve and maybe correct me if I am going about it the wrong way, then I will post it all here too, it doesnīt look promising though.
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/support/forum/viewforum.php?f=3

gerry_g
12-17-2014, 05:05 PM
well yes it's as crap as it's predecessor, vpr integration is zero, but the cast shadow problem you have mystifies me, worked ok for me last time I tried


http://youtu.be/abFy0RBy9RY

prometheus
12-17-2014, 06:25 PM
well yes it's as crap as it's predecessor, vpr integration is zero, but the cast shadow problem you have mystifies me, worked ok for me last time I tried


http://youtu.be/abFy0RBy9RY

Thanks..looking decent ..with the shadows etc, do you get to see the shadows in VPR? or only in final render? thereīs just the issue of the cloud fractals not being good enough, to many round blobs in distribution..and a little to large noise...as I mentioned in my feedback list, there is still no way
to acess and edit noise fractals with some sort of function editor, you only got master scale, and The cloud detail tab is still missing from ozone.

I need to figure out why the clouds donīt seem to cast shadows, I recall having issus with that before too, for the moment I switched back to using hypervoxels and sunsky for proper feedback.

Michael

gerry_g
12-18-2014, 06:16 AM
that is a pretty old render not done in the current version and it was hopeless experimenting back then because if you saved the scene the sky would not render next time you opened it and you would have to start again from scratch, am not certain to be honest what put the clouds on the ground but in an animated scenario I can't even get vpr to render much at all, it seems to stall all the time. Was going to wait till they upgrade the latest version to work with LW 2015 but may yank the old version in 9.6.3 and install there just to see if it is any better

prometheus
12-18-2014, 07:02 AM
that is a pretty old render not done in the current version and it was hopeless experimenting back then because if you saved the scene the sky would not render next time you opened it and you would have to start again from scratch, am not certain to be honest what put the clouds on the ground but in an animated scenario I can't even get vpr to render much at all, it seems to stall all the time. Was going to wait till they upgrade the latest version to work with LW 2015 but may yank the old version in 9.6.3 and install there just to see if it is any better


Aha...just as you say that, yesterday when I tried ozone 2015, I had some of those issues, saving and reopening and the atmosphere is gone and renders black, and sometimes vpr just stalls and fail to refine as you say....
here was the list I forwarded yesterday on the ozone forum, no answers though...


I am having some bad first impressions after only 30 minutes of testing in lightwave

11.6.

1. after closing atmosphere editor, the editor canīt be opened again..unless turning vpr off.

2. the camera do not respond to rotations when vpr is active.

3. vpr freezes/keeps refreshing if the sunligh is rotated manually...no way of getting it corrected?

4. trying to load a saved scene,but the scene is without the atmosphere I previously saved, vpr shows completly black..and when opening the scene editor, it has switched to photometric atmosphere..
so the hole saved scene seems to not be able to save properly

5. can not get clouds to cast shadows on lightwave ground object/ground plane.(mightbe missing some setting here?)

6.further that, It doesnīt matter if I try and load atmospheres, the vpr shows black anyway, and same with the final lightwave renderer, I cleared the scene and tried
from scratch..but it didnīt help.
I had to close lightwave and restart lightwave in order to work with ozone again.

7. I also see that there is still no option to use what is in vue since that is still missing in ozone..that is the cloud detail tab, I have been requesting this since ozone 5.

8. we can still not acess density noise/fractal functions.

9. the ozone editor has a bigger viewport know, however..my whish is for it to work in full Lightwave VPR mode, I can understand that might be hard to implement, but
nevertheless, it is an important factor to make the workflow nice to work with..when I use hypervoxels with dpont_sunsky...or if I use ogo taiki, I can edit everything
within those volumetric system and do so with full VPR Glory, when you desing your cloud and landscape, it is important to be able to see cloud shadows and light
hitting your terrain, with ozone that seems impossible.

prometheus
12-18-2014, 06:21 PM
I got a few answers from e-on support on their ozone forums, the vpr not working nicely, they say is due to the general slowness of computing clouds, but I am not sure that is it, in some cases I can see vpr refresh clouds fast, and I recall ozone 5 or 6 doing it decently(not sure) and it must be very complex and heavy then, since hypervoxels and ogo taiki do not stall, or stutter like it seems ozone is doing.

hereīs the complete answers from those of you not able to view the forums...

Here are the answers to your specific comments:

Michael ivarsson wrote:1.after closing atmosphere editor, the editor canīt be opened again..unless turning
vpr off.


This shouldn't happen and might be a bug. I have reported it and our engineers will investigate.

Michael ivarsson wrote:2.the camera do not respond to rotations when vpr is active.


This is caused by the general slowness of computing clouds. Because VPR wants to refresh every time you move the camera, responsiveness is very much slowed down.

Michael ivarsson wrote:3.vpr freezes/keeps refreshing if the sunligh is rotated manually...no way of
getting it corrected?


Same as 2

Michael ivarsson wrote:4.trying to load a saved scene,but the scene is without the atmosphere I previously
saved, vpr shows completly black..and when opening the scene editor, it has switched
to photometric atmosphere..so the hole saved scene seems to not be able to save
properly


We will try to reproduce this. It sounds like a bug.

Michael ivarsson wrote:5. can not get clouds to cast shadows on lightwave ground object/ground plane.(might
be missing some setting here?


I am unsure about how this is supposed to work. Let me find out and I will get back to you shortly about this.

Michael ivarsson wrote:6.further that, It doesnīt matter if I try and load atmospheres, the vpr shows black
anyway, and same with the final lightwave renderer, I cleared the scene and tried
from scratch..but it didnīt help.
I had to close lightwave and restart lightwave in order to work with ozone again.


Same as 4.

Michael ivarsson wrote:7.I also see that there is still no option to use what is in vue since that is still
missing in ozone..that is the cloud detail tab, I have been requesting this since
ozone 5.

8.we can still not acess the density noise/fractal functions.


These advanced features are only available in VUE xStream.

Michael ivarsson wrote:9. the ozone editor has a bigger viewport know, thatīs a little improvement, however..my whish is for it to work in full Lightwave VPR mode,


Yes, I understand. Like I said above, it's not that we haven't tried.

One option we could investigate would be to ignore the clouds when rendering in VPR. That would make VPR with Ozone a whole lot more responsive, but of course, you wouldn't see the clouds in VPR - so is this of any interest?